FB: Ohio Athletic Conference

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MUC57

Quote from: jamtod on October 07, 2019, 12:05:04 PM
Good thoughts and insights here. As a St Thomas fan, y'all probably know what stance I'm going to take on this, but I think some folks (fans, teams getting thumped) get way too hung up on the unwritten rules and what is/isn't ok and we should give pretty broad lattitude on this, outside of a few very clear things with few exceptions.

Huh?  ???
I'm old! I get mixed up and I forget things! Go Everybody! 🏈 ☠

jamtod

Quote from: MUC57 on October 07, 2019, 12:08:47 PM
Quote from: jamtod on October 07, 2019, 12:05:04 PM
Good thoughts and insights here. As a St Thomas fan, y'all probably know what stance I'm going to take on this, but I think some folks (fans, teams getting thumped) get way too hung up on the unwritten rules and what is/isn't ok and we should give pretty broad lattitude on this, outside of a few very clear things with few exceptions.

Huh?  ???

I'm saying I agree with you and folks (fans and coaches) shouldn't be concerned about "running up the score" nearly as much as it comes up unless there is blatantly disrespectful action.

MUC57

Quote from: jamtod on October 07, 2019, 12:12:22 PM
Quote from: MUC57 on October 07, 2019, 12:08:47 PM
Quote from: jamtod on October 07, 2019, 12:05:04 PM
Good thoughts and insights here. As a St Thomas fan, y'all probably know what stance I'm going to take on this, but I think some folks (fans, teams getting thumped) get way too hung up on the unwritten rules and what is/isn't ok and we should give pretty broad lattitude on this, outside of a few very clear things with few exceptions.

Huh?  ???

I'm saying I agree with you and folks (fans and coaches) shouldn't be concerned about "running up the score" nearly as much as it comes up unless there is blatantly disrespectful action.

Gotcha, jamtod

You got it! Best to ya!   ;D
I'm old! I get mixed up and I forget things! Go Everybody! 🏈 ☠

Pat Coleman

MUC57, Mount Union is definitely in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation here. There's no good way to handle it.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

MUC57

Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2019, 12:19:53 PM
MUC57, Mount Union is definitely in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation here. There's no good way to handle it.

Pat

As always, you're right on. Well said.  ;D
I'm old! I get mixed up and I forget things! Go Everybody! 🏈 ☠

formerd3db

Quote from: MUC57 on October 07, 2019, 12:27:17 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2019, 12:19:53 PM
MUC57, Mount Union is definitely in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation here. There's no good way to handle it.

Pat

As always, you're right on. Well said.  ;D

Ditto both.
"When the Great Scorer comes To mark against your name, He'll write not 'won' or 'lost', But how you played the game." - Grantland Rice

bleedpurple

Quote from: MUC57 on October 07, 2019, 10:12:12 AM

OK! Here goes a can of worms.

Let's set the stage.

Saturday's game - Mount vs Otterbein. Mount's last three possessions - they drive down the field, get in the red zone and kick field goals. Kick field goals! Oh, that's right, we don't want to run up the score.

Let's take a close look at this reasoning.

One of the games from the past, not a Mount game, is an example of running up the score. Team is ahead by 50 some points. They score a TD. Then go for the 2 pt conversion. That is followed up by an onside kickoff.
Whether or not the first team is playing or not, that's running up the score.

Now for Mount Union. Mount get's a big lead and begins substituting, 2nd string, 3rd string, Freshmen. What we are then watching are the future Raiders. Men who have spent a large portion of their life preparing for this moment. Now we tell them not to score. Take a knee, run out of bounds, don't hold your block - just don't score a TD. Right or wrong, that has been the philosophy at Mount for many years.

How is that viewed? To some, it's a sportsman like gesture. Thank you for sparing my woeful team any further pain. The Raiders are true gentlemen.

But there is another side. To many, and I have talked to many, this action is a slap in the face. Their response is usually, "You're telling me your 3rd team can score a TD on my 1st team defense any time, so why bother? That's an insult to my players." These comments, paraphrased, represent the feeling of at least some coaches at various levels in the sport.

It seems to me, and to many others, that the opposing team has the onus of stopping the Raiders. It should not be Mount's responsibility to stop Mount Union.

That's my opinion, which just happens to be shared by more than a few others. I don't know how I would react if I were a senior, playing in my first game after years of waiting, and was told "don't score a TD". I know for a fact that this very scenario has occurred at least once in the past.

Well there, now I've done it. We possibly can have a discussion on something we've touched on once before or I'll have to look under my car before I start it. But hey, I'm a Mount grad. I love my alma mater. I follow the football team religiously. Just my opinion (protected by the 1st amendment - thought I'd throw that in).

To close out my ramblings, GO RAIDERS!  ;)  :D

I love ethics, so I think this is an awesome question! I like to break things down into pieces, so here are my thoughts from an "ethics" point of view.

1. As much as a team's choices when the are blowing out a team might bring out emotions of fans and opponents, there is no actual right or wrong in this circumstance. There are emotions and there are opinions. Both are dubious foundations upon which to try to form "unwritten rules". This is why I pretty much abhor the "politically correct" movement. The fact that a word evokes emotion or opinion does not in itself make it "wrong".

2. While not technically "wrong" by my definition, running up the score on an opponent does reflect on the character of the team choosing to do so as does NOT running up the score.

3. I agree with formerd3db as to what would reasonably constitute "running up the score".

4. I would not even consider criticizing Mount for their policy because clearly it is a reflection of some well thought out values. I respect that.

5. I would not be concerned with Mount's opponents' response to the way they handle blowouts. That's the last thing they need to be worrying about. In fact, I think it's a poor example to kids to be "concerned" about a winning team's behavior. It plays into the "victim mentality". However, if I was a coach and felt like the opposing coach was trying to embarrass my players, I admit I would be livid.

5. I would not have the same philosophy as Mount. My first loyalty is to my players. One of my personal leadership values is to encourage those under me to "seize the moment" both in sport and in life. If I am coaching, I am looking for moments for them to seize. With that as a primary value of mine, I would not "take away" moments that could be seized.  However, because of the nature of sport, they will have to seize the moment within the scope of a greatly narrowed playbook so as not to show up the other team.  However, the playbook would still include basic plays of both pass and run.

6. The kids who are on the third and fourth teams have few chances to play football other than some reps on the scout team. I would error on the side of letting them play football.  They love the sport or they wouldn't be sacrificing all they sacrifice.

Probably worth less, but that's my two cents.


MUC57


bleedpurple

Wow! Great response. Very philosophical. You explained the situation better than I. Thanks!
Go Warhawks!  ;D
I'm old! I get mixed up and I forget things! Go Everybody! 🏈 ☠

formerd3db

bleedpurple:

Yes, very nice explanation of your thoughts and reasoning.  I think we are essentially of the same opinion.  But even if we weren't., thanks for sharing yours.
"When the Great Scorer comes To mark against your name, He'll write not 'won' or 'lost', But how you played the game." - Grantland Rice

bleedpurple

Quote from: formerd3db on October 07, 2019, 08:46:14 PM
bleedpurple:

Yes, very nice explanation of your thoughts and reasoning.  I think we are essentially of the same opinion.  But even if we weren't., thanks for sharing yours.

Thank you. I think we are probably of the same opinion.

MUC57


formerd3db

"Dlll Levity Club"? I didn't know that. May I be treasurer? You, of course, may be president.
This club could be fairly large. I'm sure we have many "mature" posters.
Since this organization will represent many teams across the country, I'll simply say
                GO EVERYBODY!   🍺 🏈 🍺
I'm old! I get mixed up and I forget things! Go Everybody! 🏈 ☠

section13raiderfan

It is the defenses job ( responsibility) to stop a a score. If they fail how do you fault the offense????

Dr. Acula

The problem for Mount is that, as Pat mentioned regarding JCU and the 9 vs. 12 ranking, there is a sizable gap between the very top and even the 9th ranked team.  That gap when you're playing an OAC bottom dweller is ridiculous.  You can play your 3rd string and do nothing but hand off and you're still going to score because your opponent is still athletically over-matched by the 3rd string.  Plus they're tired and demoralized versus a fresh 3rd string who rightfully wants to go 100%.  So what do you do?  The opponent physically cannot stop you.  LK opted to stop himself and VK does the same.  I'm fine with that choice.  I would also be fine with it if you just handed the ball off, took your time between plays, etc.  As long as you're not out there throwing bombs and running trick plays up 50 I don't think coaches/players/fans would have an issue with it from the other side.

MUC57

#59773
Quote from: Dr. Acula on October 08, 2019, 10:34:19 AM
The problem for Mount is that, as Pat mentioned regarding JCU and the 9 vs. 12 ranking, there is a sizable gap between the very top and even the 9th ranked team.  That gap when you're playing an OAC bottom dweller is ridiculous.  You can play your 3rd string and do nothing but hand off and you're still going to score because your opponent is still athletically over-matched by the 3rd string.  Plus they're tired and demoralized versus a fresh 3rd string who rightfully wants to go 100%.  So what do you do?  The opponent physically cannot stop you.  LK opted to stop himself and VK does the same.  I'm fine with that choice.  I would also be fine with it if you just handed the ball off, took your time between plays, etc.  As long as you're not out there throwing bombs and running trick plays up 50 I don't think coaches/players/fans would have an issue with it from the other side.

Dr. Acula

Imagine this scenario, because it HAS happened.

Your son is in his senior year. He has been on the team since he was a freshman. Never got playing time, or at least not much. He gets put in the game as a running back. His big chance! He gets the handoff, runs around left end and breaks into the clear. No one between him and the end zone. A sure TD. But instead, he runs out of bounds. Guess he'll never get the chance to score for his team.

As I said above, this occurred before. How's that feel to you and to your son?

There are obviously 2 sides to this issue. I'm merely stating my opinion. Go Raiders!   8-)  :)
I'm old! I get mixed up and I forget things! Go Everybody! 🏈 ☠

Captainred81

There is something to be said for not going 'overboard' with scoring.  Mount Union had 42 points with more than half of the 2nd Quarter left to play.  They could have scored 100+ points.  They are also in a place where they need to let their 1's play as long as possible.  They also need to keep the futures hungry.  I suspect part of the reason that Plunk was in, in the 2nd Quarter, was so that he could score and play with the top players on the team.  The coaches will figure out a way to sub in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th string when the game gets out of hand early.  This allows these players to play and not worry about scoring.  Also, don't forget that a lot of the players that are out there in the 4th, are lineman etc... They get to have the live reps against other teams, and it makes no difference to them how many points are scored while they are out there. 

I agree with the concept of not running up the score.  I really can't imagine that other teams players or coaches are that offended when Mount or any other teams intentionally do not score. 
Any W.I.N is a B.F.D