FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

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Gregory Sager

Quote from: USee on March 18, 2018, 10:23:41 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 17, 2018, 02:34:13 PM
Nothing's more serious than felony charges, but the other complaint put forth in the suit -- that against Wheaton College itself -- is, to my mind, an even more serious accusation than the seven $50,000 complaints against the individual Wheaton players, and not because of the $1m-plus in damages sought from the school. This lawsuit has some grave implications for Wheaton's reputation in general and for the school's football program and coaching staff specifically. Again, to quote from the Trib article:

QuoteHazing was "an open secret at Wheaton College, a practice well-established and long-standing within the Wheaton College football program, handed down from class to class while the head coach and other adults, aware of the practice, looked the other way in disregard of the health and safety of players," attorney Terry Ekl, who filed the suit on behalf of Nagy, said in a statement Friday.

Wheaton College allowed the hazing practice as a "means of building character and a perceived unity within the team," Ekl said.

That's an incredibly serious accusation that casts severe aspersions upon Mike Swider and the entire Wheaton football program, and the school by extension, and makes this matter much bigger than the transgressions of a handful of players in the course of a single spring evening two years ago.

If any of his is proven true, Greg, then I may agree. What's pretty clear now is the underlying motivation for Nagy, from the beginning, is a smear campaign of a reputable school, coach and students with the motivation of a money grab.

That's your opinion, of course. It's not "pretty clear" from the facts, which have yet to be revealed in court.

Quote from: USee on March 18, 2018, 10:23:41 AMNow that his name is out and the true intentions of this action are clear, the gloves are off and I suspect we will see a more aggressive defense from the college that reveals more of the facts.

Agreed, although the college won't be the only party doing the revealing.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

USee

Ok. It is a fact they filed a lawsuit against the individuals and the college, the goal of which is to collect more than $1m.  It's also a fact, though not as widely known, that Nagys family sought a similar amount from the school in 2016 to not pursue legal action. 

Nagys attorney has revealed their case publicly as well as in the filing. There's not a lot more other than the evidence to support their claims. The college and the defendants have remained fairly quiet up to now, in part to protect the identity and confidentiality of Nagy. My point was that now that his identity is out and their end gamenis clear, I suspect more facts will come out.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: USee on March 18, 2018, 09:15:47 PM
Ok. It is a fact they filed a lawsuit against the individuals and the college, the goal of which is to collect more than $1m.  It's also a fact, though not as widely known, that Nagys family sought a similar amount from the school in 2016 to not pursue legal action.

That remains hearsay, unless you can show proof of it, but even if it's true it's hardly some sort of black mark upon Nagy and his family from an ethical standpoint. (From a Christian standpoint it's another matter, given 1 Corinthians 6:1-6 -- a salient point for me and perhaps for other people of faith -- but that's not relevant to the merits of the lawsuit itself in terms of legal ethics.) Lawsuits get filed for all sorts of reasons, and negligence and malfeasance are among them. Above and beyond the physical and psychological damage he claims to have suffered is his contention that the school looked the other way while the football program fostered an atmosphere of bullying and physical and psychological torture under the guise of that time-honored collegiate tradition, "hazing". It's easy to only see this as a money grab if you're wearing blue-and-orange glasses, and I'm not saying that the rest of us can't see a money grab as a possibility, too. I certainly do. But there's also the punitive aspect of a suit like this, which is to exact a penalty (both economic and social) from an institution that deserves it. That's the other side of it.

Again, I don't have to agree with what Nagy is doing, or sign off on the idea that his motives are pure, to grasp that this is a perfectly understandable and plausible action from the point of view of ethics. 

Quote from: USee on March 18, 2018, 09:15:47 PMNagys attorney has revealed their case publicly as well as in the filing. There's not a lot more other than the evidence to support their claims.

Well, isn't that the whole point? The criminal case, like all criminal cases, will rest upon the evidence -- both physical evidence (i.e., medical records) and evidence derived from testimony at trial. And the civil case, presumably, rests upon what is revealed in the criminal case.

Quote from: USee on March 18, 2018, 09:15:47 PMThe college and the defendants have remained fairly quiet up to now, in part to protect the identity and confidentiality of Nagy. My point was that now that his identity is out and their end gamenis clear, I suspect more facts will come out.

That's entirely possible, too -- although, again, it's the evidence that will be revealed at trial that will matter.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

USee

For the court proceedings you are correct, the evidence revealed through the discovery process and at trial, if it gets there, are what is important. Nagy's family and attorney have been trying this, from day one, through the court of public opinion as well. Nagy's strategy (and I refer mostly to the dad here because that's who is driving this) has been to make this public through their attorney, for maximum exposure. That strategy has no affect on the outcome of the court proceedings. If there is legitimate strategy behind publicly smearing the college and football program (all of which, btw, is hearsay) I'd like to hear it. The obvious strategy is to put plenty of public pressure on the school and the program to maximize a settlement. I am open to other options as to why Nagy's attorney has been in the press from day one with details meant for a courtroom.  Plenty of lawsuits are tried in a courtroom with no one else involved or in the know. This one, by Nagy's decision, is being tried in public as well as a courtroom. Ironically, none of this is likely to end up at trial as I would be shocked if the DA'S charges weren't settled  as well as this civil, money grab suit as well.

As far as the money demands pre filing, It's not hearsay for me Greg, I know it happened, among other facts I know that aren't public. It can be proven quite easily because there were several witnesses to it. And this isn't a courtroom so it's not likely to ever be a part of the public record or the court proceeding. That doesn't mean it didn't happen.

izzy stradlin

#35614
I wasn't there on that day in March '16 so I don't know what happened. I have heard the accuser's story (well published and now available in more detail in the lawsuit that is online) and a different account from the Wheaton players and was skeptical of both. Young Mr. Nagy was also at Wabash to play football for a short time before Wheaton (info now available online) and there is an account of why he left abruptly that I have no idea whether or not is true.

The lawsuit against Wheaton seeks money for the abusive culture of hazing in these kidnapping events that the coaches/school are responsible for because they are aware and look the other way.  I can say first-hand this is absolutely false.  This is simply a claim made to effort to gain financial compensation.   

I was a student living with football players in the Swider era (albeit several years back) and here is what I can tell anyone about the kidnapping ritual.

When I go visit my three-year-old nephew I often sneak up behind him, grab him and hold him on my shoulders (against his will) and then throw him up in the air several times.  At first he always screams and says no but then giggles while I carry him around and throw him up in the air.  When I finally put him down he asks to do it again and again. 

I've seen these freshman football "kidnappings" first-hand and would say they are about as villainous as as me kidnapping my nephew. They are the most goofy, silly, benign events you could ever imagine for a "kidnapping". The freshman and smiling and laughing the entire time including after they return. I remember being mad myself only because we had to pause a dorm tournament game of Madden for 15-20 minutes until one of them got back. I honestly think most players are actually excited when it happens.     

The majority of the football team goes on a spring break missions trip building houses or digging ditches in third world countries. I would say the peer pressure and raise money and go on that trip together was worse than the kidnapping.

I spent 6 years as a resident working 100 hr weeks and 30+ hour shifts. That was probably closer to systemic hazing.  Honestly, these little trips the freshman took looked kinda fun to me.  We didn't get cars as freshman at Wheaton-- this got you off campus with upperclassmen.   

With the >1 million dollar lawsuit in involving the college for this "systemic hazing" plus whatever they are trying to get from the Spielmans my skepticism toward the whole story has shifted even more.

Gregory Sager

I'm not going to argue with the two of you. There's a definite "circle the wagons" vibe at work here, complete with what I see from my admittedly subjective vantage point as having layers of rationalizations and a priori assumptions, and I just don't want any part of taking it on. I was and am agnostic on the only things that ultimately matter from a legal standpoint, which are the facts of the case, and I remain open-minded and hold no agenda. I don't see it as constructive at all to pursue this line with the two of you, and, since you're both emotionally invested in the case to a very great degree and I'm not emotionally invested in it at all, it seems to me that just about anything I say here that's short of complete agreement with the two of you will be cause for resentment on your parts or might be interpreted as showing hostility on my part, and I don't want that. So I'm bowing out.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

USee

#35616
Greg, I reject your characterization of me. Just because I care more about the Wheaton football program than you do doesn't make me any less objective. It raises the possibility that I am less objective and I respect your calling that out, but my points are based on facts. You may disagree with my conclusions, which is fair. My record on calling out my own school, the program I support, and the people I know is clear.

I don't want to debate this on this page either, but I also think calling into question the reputation and integrity of the school, coaches and program based on what we have (have not yet) seen publicly is premature. And the "two of us" are not in cahoots. I have no interaction with other poster's on this issue (that i am aware of) and my thoughts are not coordinated with anyone (just ask my wife)


AndOne

#35617
GUILTY PLEA UPCOMING IN WHEATON FOOTBALL HAZING CASE.

Noah Spielman, one of the five Wheaton College football players charged with mob action, unlawful restraint, and aggravated battery (all felonies) in a hazing incident involving a former Wheaton student and teammate will evidently appear in DuPage County Court tomorrow morning and plead guilty to the charges. It is not known if Spielman will plead guilty to 1, 2, or all 3 of the original charges, or if he will enter his guilty plea to a lesser (misdemeanor) charge in a plea agreement deal negotiated by his attorney and agreed to by the DuPage States Attorney.

Spielman is the only one of the "Wheaton 5" who is expected to plead guilty tomorrow.

About a week ago, the alleged victim filed a lawsuit against the other 4 players, 3 additional players, and Wheaton College itself. The suit also names Wheaton Coach Mike Swider. Spielman was not named in that suit.

AndOne

#35618
As expected Wheaton College football player Noah Spielman pled guilty this morning to a reduced charge of misdemeanor battery in the well publicized Wheaton hazing case involving a former Wheaton student and football team member. In exchange for his plea, authorities dropped 9 felony counts which Spielman had been charged with. He was sentenced to conditional discharge and ordered to perform 100 hours of community service. His attorney said that Spielman's involvement in the case was limited to holding an elevator door open for other teammates who entered the victim's dorm room and carried him out, playing Middle Eastern music as they rode in a pickup truck to the field where the victim was dumped, and then kicking dirt on the victim after he had been dumped, partially naked, on the field.

Before formally agreeing to the plea in open court, Spielman and his attorney met privately with prosecutors, the judge, and a court reporter. In that meeting he gave a statement about the incident. That statement will be available to be used against the four other players, Benjamin Pettway, Kyler Kregel, James Cooksey, and Samuel TeBos, during their upcoming trials.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/suburbs/wheaton/news/ct-met-wheaton-hazing-plea-20180322-story.html

Noah Spielman is the same player who previously expressed indignation about charges being filed by the DuPage County States Attorney saying that he was surprised about the charges because the school had exonerated him following an internal investigation. Said "investigation," resulted in Wheaton ordering the players to perform 50 hours of community service and write an 8 page paper.

http://www.wjol.com/wheaton-football-player-disputes-hazing-charges/

With a guilty plea now having been entered in conjunction with this case, it appears obvious that the Wheaton Police, County States Attorney investigators, and the States Attorney himself took the College's self-perceived "investigation" for a sham, and viewed it as more of an attempted cover up by the College in an attempt to avoid the case going public, for fear of the potential negative exposure Wheaton College might suffer as a result.

The separate suit the victim has filed against the other four original players, 3 additional players, and Wheaton College itself, remains ongoing. Noah Spielman was not named in that lawsuit.

None of the above information is speculation. Its all verifiable through TV reports, newspaper articles, and internet postings.

What IS open to speculation is what might happen to the original case, and the new case referenced above as the "separate" suit.
I, for one, wouldn't be surprised to see them all end in some type of plea agreements to include acceptance of misdemeanor charges and fines in lieu of the cases going to trial and felony charges being pursued. Do others agree/disagree?

emma17

It's not speculation to say the police and state's attorney apparently took Wheaton's investigation into the incident as a sham and attempted cover up?
I'm not there yet based on what I've read and heard.

wm4

Quote from: AndOne on March 22, 2018, 07:20:59 PM
With a guilty plea now having been entered in conjunction with this case, it appears obvious...

None of the above information is speculation. Its all verifiable through TV reports, newspaper articles, and internet postings.


While the facts you cite about the criminal charges are not speculation, it is indeed pure speculation on your part about how those authorities viewed Wheaton's own investigation.

I'm no attorney but I can't imagine where it even matters how the police and DA viewed the college's own investigation.  They're doing their job.


thunderdog

wm4 & emma17,

Thanks for unwinding the blatant spin being spun around here.

MUC57


thunder dog

Huh?

Trying my best to follow the discussion on the Wheaton "thing"!
However; I'm old. I get mixed up and I forget things!  ☠🏈🇷🇴
I'm old! I get mixed up and I forget things! Go Everybody! 🏈 ☠

AndOne

#35623
Quote from: thunderdog on March 23, 2018, 05:22:15 PM
wm4 & emma17,

Thanks for unwinding the blatant spin being spun around here.

1. First of all, thunderdog, your very screen name screams of an emotional attachment so fervent that it makes it virtually impossible for you to see even the slightest criticism of Wheaton, no matter how valid, as anything other than "spin."

2. As far as the Wheaton "investigation" is concerned, their findings were that while the accused players may have overstepped the bounds of acceptable behavior, it was the accuser, Mr. Nagy, who was primarily responsible, that the accused players actions were nothing more than slightly over zealous "innocent" hazing, and that an appropriate punishment for the accused players would be to perform 50 hours of community service and write an 8 page paper. If all that happened was what the Wheaton "investigation" said happened, the grand jury would never have approved the filing of NINE FELONY charges against each of the original five football players. FACT, not spin.

3. HOWEVER, since 2014 Wheaton has had a policy where athletes must sign an anti-hazing policy that prohibits them from humiliating, degrading, abusing, and endangering another person when they join a campus team or organization. Again, FACT, not spin. You can look it up.  ;)

4. Today, Noah Spielman pled guilty to the misdemeanor charge of battery. In conjunction with that guilty plea, Spielman, through his attorney, admitted to 1) holding the elevator door open so the other 4 defendants could carry Mr. Nagy, who had been bound with duct tape, downstairs and out to a pickup truck, 2) playing Middle Eastern music in connection with threats of bodily harm while the pickup truck was on the way to the field where Mr. Nagy was dumped, half naked, and 3) kicking dirt over Mr. Nagy after he was dumped on the field. THESE things were done by Mr. Spielman's own admission in open court. Gonna say "spin" again here?
And how in the world is this not a clear violation of the anti-hazing pledge all Wheaton athletes sign?

5. Spielman's guilty plea today confirms that multiple violations of Wheaton's anti-hazing policy took place. And, remember, he had the most limited involvement of all of the players involved. As such, as soon as Wheaton became aware of the incident, they should have immediately dismissed the 5 players from school. They violated the Agreement they signed. PERIOD! Not doing so runs counter to Wheaton's own policy. Such action, or non action in this case, can clearly define their subsequent "investigation" as a sham. Nothing less than a veiled attempt to limit their exposure, and to minimize any negative publicity that might ensue. Now, theres the SPIN!

Wheaton would have been better off if they had just admitted the 5 players violated school policy, immediately dismissed the players from school, and put out a memo indicating what happened and what steps they had instituted to insure such behavior didn't occur again. Had they done so, they might not be facing the lawsuit that the victim, Mr. Nagy, recently filed against the school itself.




MUC57


AndOne

Great post. Some people just won't let facts get in the way!  ☠🇷🇴
I'm old! I get mixed up and I forget things! Go Everybody! 🏈 ☠