MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

Started by Board Mod, February 28, 2005, 11:18:51 AM

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GoPerry

Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 17, 2017, 05:14:26 PM
First of all, Bully, let's make it readable:


player  GP-GS  Min  mpg  FG-FGA  Pct3FG-FGA  Pct    FT-FTA    PctORb  DRb  Tot  rpg  PFFO  A  TO  A:TO  Blk  Stl  Pts  ppg
Aston Francis  23-23  763  33.3  195-423  .461  87-221  .394    76-96  .792  16    53    69  3.0  54  0  75  68  1.10     6  51  553  24.0
Jordan Robinson  23-23  792  34.4  185-338  .547  56-127  .441  103-150  .687  59  155  214  9.3  68  3  80  58  1.38   30  21  529  23.0

Second, you're quoting the wrong stats. These are the overall stats. The CCIW-only stats are the relevant database for awards considerations.

Third, where were you two or three days ago when we had this discussion -- using the relevant database, as supplied by lmitzel -- right here on CCIW Chat? Is this just a drop-in on your part? You could've saved yourself some time by actually reading the discussion from earlier this week, you know.

Fourth, you're right ... Francis is more than just the best newcomer in the league. He's a slam-dunk All-CCIW first-teamer, and I said as much either yesterday or the day before on CCIW Chat.

Fifth, nothing you've posted here changes what I sense is the reason for your bimonthy or so appearance in this room, which is to argue for Francis as CCIW MOP. Sorry, no sale. Even by posting the wrong set of data you only reinforce the fact that Jordan Robinson is the best all-around player in the league and the natural choice for MOP.


I agree.  Nothing in this stat line changes my mind that Robinson is the front runner for MOP (or MVP/POY which are mostly distinctions without a difference).




Quote from: AndOne on February 17, 2017, 06:28:36 PM
With regard to the POY discussion............

Should the award not go to the most complete player in the conference?

Scoring will always get you noticed, and top scorers will almost always find their name among those on all-star or all-conference teams, and included in the discussion of awards such as MVP or POY. However, as aficionados of the game know, there are many other aspects of the game that are reflective of a complete player whose individual star not only shines brightly, but who is also capable of making the other players around him better, thus contributing to his team's overall success as well as his own.


Yes, exactly.  Which is why it was pointed out in a post a day or 2 ago that leading the league in scoring is not a reliable indicator of who will be named the MOP.  Hunter Hill the very recent example.

iwumichigander

Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 17, 2017, 08:50:06 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on February 17, 2017, 08:18:06 PM
This is the hazard of naming the award Most OUTSTANDING Player.  MVP is more clear-cut - whichever player most makes his team most likely to win.  MOP (or POY) can mean anything a voter wants it to mean.

Thing is, the way that the coaches treat the process, you could call it the Flaming Buzzkill On A Pulsating Pie Tin award and it wouldn't matter a bit. Some will vote for the league's best talent; some will go the MVP route and vote for the players who helped their teams the most (as long as said teams finished in the top three or so); and some will let their votes be affected by grudges and/or Machiavellian maneuvering. The votes can reflect whatever personalities happen to be in place among the league's head coaches in that given year. Fortunately, the choice for MOP is sometimes clear-cut enough so that different perspectives and personalities among the coaches don't really matter.
correct including in some seasons, The Player That Requires an Indivdual Game Plan As Well As An Opponent Game Plan Award also known as The PIA (Pain in the Ass) Award

Mr. Ypsi

Not to interrupt (well, I guess I'm interrupting 8-)), but we've just hit 3,000 pages - did anyone bring the champagne? ;D

kiko

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on February 17, 2017, 08:18:06 PM
This is the hazard of naming the award Most OUTSTANDING Player. MVP is more clear-cut - whichever player most makes his team most likely to win.  MOP (or POY) can mean anything a voter wants it to mean.  (By any name, my vote would be Robinson.)


Calling it MOP rather than MVP is a feature, not a bug.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on February 17, 2017, 09:35:54 PM
Not to interrupt (well, I guess I'm interrupting 8-)), but we've just hit 3,000 pages - did anyone bring the champagne? ;D

This is the first basketball board to hit 3,000 pages. CCIW Chat used to run second behind Let's Talk MIAA, but we passed our brethren on the other side of the lake quite some time ago.

There's still three football boards with more pages than this one, though, so let's keep it in perspective.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Gregory Sager

Quote from: iwumichigander on February 17, 2017, 09:25:10 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 17, 2017, 08:50:06 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on February 17, 2017, 08:18:06 PM
This is the hazard of naming the award Most OUTSTANDING Player.  MVP is more clear-cut - whichever player most makes his team most likely to win.  MOP (or POY) can mean anything a voter wants it to mean.

Thing is, the way that the coaches treat the process, you could call it the Flaming Buzzkill On A Pulsating Pie Tin award and it wouldn't matter a bit. Some will vote for the league's best talent; some will go the MVP route and vote for the players who helped their teams the most (as long as said teams finished in the top three or so); and some will let their votes be affected by grudges and/or Machiavellian maneuvering. The votes can reflect whatever personalities happen to be in place among the league's head coaches in that given year. Fortunately, the choice for MOP is sometimes clear-cut enough so that different perspectives and personalities among the coaches don't really matter.
correct including in some seasons, The Player That Requires an Indivdual Game Plan As Well As An Opponent Game Plan Award also known as The PIA (Pain in the Ass) Award

Yeah, I can think of a few guys that fit that description. We may even be thinking of the same ones. ;)
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Dennis_Prikkel

Rebounding statistics are tad different now because prior to the 1967 season common fouls before the seventh foul resulted in a one shot free throw.  More missed free throws to rebound.

Having never seen Warden play I am still amazed at his scoring Marks.

Sikma did not have the three point shot either, but made many baskets at the top of the key.

Best shooters I ever saw in the league were Dave Shaw of Carroll and Bill Simpson of Elmhurst, and without the three pointer put up huge numbers never coming within 25 feet of the basker on offense or defense.
I am determined to be wise, but this was beyond me.

Titan Q

Illinois Wesleyan (16-7, 8-6) vs North Central (14-10, 8-7), 7:00pm...

Illinois Wesleyan (16-7, 8-6)
G - Brady Rose, 6-3 Jr.   15.5 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 2.6 apg
G - Colin Bonnett, 6-4 So.   10.9 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 2.0 apg
G - Andy Stempel, 6-4 Sr.   11.5 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 2.9 apg
F - Alec Bausch, 6-6 Sr.   8.9 ppg, 5.7 rpg, 2.1 apg
F - Trevor Seibring, 6-8 Sr.   12.1 ppg, 5.5 rpg

G - Nick Coleman, 6-1 So.  7.9 ppg, 2.0 rpg, 2.3 apg


North Central (14-10, 8-7)
G - Jagger Anderson, 6-0 Sr.   10.9 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 3.2 apg
G - Erwin Henry, 6-2 Jr.   13.3 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 2.5 apg
G - Aiden Chang, 6-3 So.   10.6 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 2.9 apg
F - Matt Cappelletti, 6-5 Fr.   7.5 ppg, 5.9 rpg
F - Alex Sorenson, 6-8 Jr.   17.4 ppg, 8.8 rpg

G - Nick Chambers, 6-1 Fr.   5.4 ppg


Pantagraph - http://www.pantagraph.com/sports/college/basketball/men/much-on-the-line-as-iwu-entertains-north-central/article_429b972b-0666-5749-9b62-8803b64c7efa.html

Game Notes - http://www.iwusports.com/news/2017/2/17/mens-basketball-iwu-basketball-seniors-night-for-women-and-men-saturday.aspx

Video/Stats - https://portal.stretchinternet.com/iwu/

WJBC Radio - https://portal.stretchinternet.com/wjbc/

Massey - IWU 74 NCC 68  http://www.masseyratings.com/rate.php?s=cb2017&sub=11620

Titan Q

Standings
Augustana  11-3
Carthage  9-5
North Park  9-5
Illinois Wesleyan  8-6
Wheaton  8-6
North Central  8-7
Carroll  7-7
Elmhurst  3-12
Millikin  1-13

Remaining Games
Augustana - at North Park, at Illinois Wesleyan
Carthage - at Millikin, vs Wheaton
North Park - vs Augustana, vs Millikin
Illinois Wesleyan - vs North Central, vs Augustana
Wheaton - at Carroll, at Carthage
North Central - at Illinois Wesleyan (Sat.)
Carroll - vs Wheaton, at Elmhurst
Elmhurst - vs Millikin, vs Carroll
Millikin - vs Carthage, at North Park

Today
Wheaton at Carroll, 4pm
North Central at Illinois Wesleyan, 7pm
Augustana at North Park, 7pm
Carthage at Millikin, 7pm



Obviously a whole bunch of drama in play here...

1st place/hosting rights
* Augustana has a 2-game lead, but Carthage and North Park are still very much in play. Obviously Augie needs just one more win to clinch the outright title and hosting rights, but the Vikings have two very tough games left - at NPU, at IWU. In the event of a 3-way 9-5 tie, Carthage wins.  North Park would win a 2-way 9-5 tie with Augie.  Obviously the game tonight in Chicago is enormous in terms of where the conference tournament will be played.

Spots 2/3/4
* Thinking through all of the scenarios is enough to make your head hurt.  There are 7 teams in play for the conference tournament, with only Augustana having clinched a spot.  IWU can eliminate North Central tonight with a win at home...Wheaton can eliminate Carroll with a road win in Kenosha.  IWU is not in very good shape to finish higher than the #4 seed because, a) the Titans were swept by North Park and thus, lose a tie with the Vikings, and b) Carthage, which IWU does own a sweep over, has a one game lead over the Titans and an easier remaining schedule.

NCAA Tournament
* No CCIW team is a lock for a Pool C (at-large) bid.  Augustana can play its way to the wrong side of the bubble with two losses (at NPU, at IWU)...IWU has to win both remaining games (vs NCC, vs Augie) to get to a reasonable bubble position...Carthage also has to win both remaining games (at Millikin, vs Wheaton) to have a chance...North Park is in the same position as IWU and CC, needing to win two (vs Augie, vs Millikin) to get to the bubble. A win over regionally ranked Augustana would help very much.


Things will become more clear after today, but there will still be a lot of drama in play on Tuesday night.  I can't think of a CCIW finish over the years with more moving parts/implications than 2016-17.

Titan Q

The CCIW's top 5 scorers, and 8 of top 10, return next year.

Conference-only scoring leaders through 2/15
1. Aston Francis (Wheaton), 25.6, So.
2. Jordan Robinson (NPU), 21.4, Jr.
3. Alex Sorenson (NCC), 18.2, Jr.
4. Brady Rose (IWU), 16.1, Jr.
5. Chrishawn Orange (Augie), 16.1, So.
6. Mike Stevenson (Carthage), 15.1, Sr.
7. Derek Dotlich (Elmhurst), 13.6, Fr.
8. Kyle Keranen (Carroll), 13.4, Sr.
9. Erwin Henry (NCC), 13.3, Jr.
10. Kienan Baltimore (Carthage), 13.1, Fr.

Gregory Sager

Current Massey:

  14. Augustana
  30. Carthage
  31. Illinois Wesleyan
  39. North Park
  61. North Central
  78. Wheaton
113. Carroll
202. Elmhurst
313. Millikin

Massey sez:

@ Carthage 75, Millikin 61 (CC 91%, MU 9%)
Augustana 78, @ North Park 76 (AC 55%, NPU 45%)
Wheaton 72, @ Carroll 71 (WC 52%, CU 48%)
@ IWU 74, NCC 68 (IWU 73%, NCC 27%)
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Titan Q

Here is my Saturday morning take on Pool C - http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4232.msg1791819#msg1791819.

I have IWU right on the bubble at spot #16...essentially the last team in since I always assume there will be 5 major upsets that send Pool As to Pool C.  The Titans are in the Pool C picture but absolutely need 2 wins.

I have Carthage and North Park both out at this point.  Both can get to the bubble with 2 wins.

Mr. Ypsi

Quote from: Titan Q on February 18, 2017, 12:11:34 PM
Here is my Saturday morning take on Pool C - http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4232.msg1791819#msg1791819.

I have IWU right on the bubble at spot #16...essentially the last team in since I always assume there will be 5 major upsets that send Pool As to Pool C.  The Titans are in the Pool C picture but absolutely need 2 wins.

I have Carthage and North Park both out at this point.  Both can get to the bubble with 2 wins.

IWU can probably be moved up to #15 since one of the NESCAC teams above them will almost certainly be the AQ.

AndOne

Quote from: Titan Q on February 18, 2017, 12:11:34 PM
Here is my Saturday morning take on Pool C - http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4232.msg1791819#msg1791819.

I have IWU right on the bubble at spot #16...essentially the last team in since I always assume there will be 5 major upsets that send Pool As to Pool C.  The Titans are in the Pool C picture but absolutely need 2 wins.

I have Carthage and North Park both out at this point.  Both can get to the bubble with 2 wins.

IWU will enjoy a tremendous advantage tonight at home vs North Central as the visitors will be without pre-season All-American Connor Raridon who scored 19 points, and had 8 rebounds in the Cardinals first conference round win in Naperville in December. Six of the Cardinals seven conference losses have come since Raridon's injury knocked him out for the remainder of the year. However, the Cardinals have not exactly rolled over, played dead, and gotten creamed as those six losses have been by an average of 6.6 points a game. NCC took both 1st place Augie and 2nd place Carthage to OT.
With a win tonight NCC can not only knock IWU, which still has to play Augie, out of the CCIW tourney picture, but can qualify for the #4 spot (with some help) themselves so the Cardinals will be fighting every second of the game to try to secure that spot. It will take a supreme effort for all involved to pull out a W tonight at IWU. If NCC doesn't give that effort, especially with what's on the line, I'll be quite surprised, and they'll have only themselves to blame. But a Cardinal win tonight night is certainly a possibility even against a talented home team who has a lot to lose themselves.

4samuy

Watching a little of the Carroll vs Wheaton game, the Wheaton broadcast team mentioned that both teams are trying to get into the tournament for a chance to get to the tournament which will be held at Augustana.  I guess Augie is guaranteed to win at least one of the last two. 😉