Author Topic: MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin  (Read 5003194 times)

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #44970 on: February 16, 2017, 11:00:54 pm »
Two minor quibbles: Jack Sikma as a sophomore should be 1975, not 1976; and the ONLY reason Jesse Price didn't win as a sophomore in 1967 was because of the technicality that the award didn't start until 1968! ;D

The first quibble is a valid point (I've corrected it). The second quibble is a counterfactual, and therefore not really relevant to the issue at hand of identifying past non-senior MOP winners.

I don't know how much of a real shot Wheaton has at making your tournament but if they do along with North Park and Carthage.  That would make 3 teams that finished 5th, 6th and 8th last year finishing in the top four.  Other leagues just don't have that kind of turnover, very rare imo.

The CCIW's churn is part of what makes the league so exciting, and, honestly, part of what makes it so good as well.
"Talent is God-given. Be humble. Fame is man-given. Be grateful. Conceit is self-given. Be careful.. -- John Wooden

Offline kiko

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Re: MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #44971 on: February 16, 2017, 11:03:05 pm »

FINAL, ULTIMATE, COMPLETE LIST OF NON-SENIOR MOPs


... pretty bold assertion given that we are on I think v5.0 of this list...  ::)

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #44972 on: February 16, 2017, 11:20:26 pm »
I can always add more modifiers. I'm leaning towards VERY LAST, DEFINITIVE, FINAL, ULTIMATE, COMPLETE LIST OF NON-SENIOR MOPs for the next iteration.
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Offline Mr. Ypsi

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Re: MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #44973 on: February 17, 2017, 12:28:46 am »
Greg, granted Jesse Price in 1967 is impossible to know, and not germane to ACTUAL MOP winners.  But I saw every CCIW player in 1967 (many, including Jesse, twice, and the Titan players of course 15-20 times) - Jesse Price was head-and-shoulders above anyone else in the league.  I think he also may have been a FRESHMAN MOP in 1966 if there was such an award (though Steve Laub, senior PG for league-champion IWU, might have beaten him out).  I have never understood why he ended up paying his own way in D3 (which didn't then exist, of course, but pretty sure Millikin didn't give athletic scholarships), or why he didn't play in the NBA.  Despite all the great great CCIW players we've had, Jesse Price is still my nominee for G.O.A.T.

Offline iwu70

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Re: MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #44974 on: February 17, 2017, 03:00:27 am »
Come on, Ypsi -- GOAT is Sikma.  Get real.

:)

IWU'70

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #44975 on: February 17, 2017, 10:19:12 am »
Greg, granted Jesse Price in 1967 is impossible to know, and not germane to ACTUAL MOP winners.  But I saw every CCIW player in 1967 (many, including Jesse, twice, and the Titan players of course 15-20 times) - Jesse Price was head-and-shoulders above anyone else in the league.

Chuck, that's never been in dispute. And nobody's arguing that Price would not have won the award. He probably would've won the award as a frosh in 1965-66 as well, since he led the league in both scoring and rebounding that season. Dennis Prikkel was around then, too, and he maintains that Price is the best CCIW player he ever saw.

I'm simply sticking to the topic at hand, and you're confusing the issue. ;)

Come on, Ypsi -- GOAT is Sikma.  Get real.

No, it's Price. Dennis Prikkel is not the only old-timer who's said that to me.

(Actually, one gentleman very steeped in years once insisted to me in the airplane hangar that Bill Warden was the CCIW's GOAT. While I nodded respectfully and acknowledged that Warden really did put up some amazing numbers for North Central during the era of the Korean War, I couldn't help but think that the game has changed just a tad since the era of leather knee pads, shorts with belts, and the two-handed set shot.)
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Offline Gotberg

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Offline AndOne

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Re: MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #44977 on: February 17, 2017, 01:45:09 pm »

Come on, Ypsi -- GOAT is Sikma.  Get real.

No, it's Price. Dennis Prikkel is not the only old-timer who's said that to me.

(Actually, one gentleman very steeped in years once insisted to me in the airplane hangar that Bill Warden was the CCIW's GOAT. While I nodded respectfully and acknowledged that Warden really did put up some amazing numbers for North Central during the era of the Korean War, I couldn't help but think that the game has changed just a tad since the era of leather knee pads, shorts with belts, and the two-handed set shot.)

Before you give out a GOAT award keep in mind that while wearing those leather knee pads, and shorts with a belt, Bill Warden scored 2249 points without ever making a single three point shot!
He averaged 28.5 PPG for 4 years. Current CCIW scoring leader Aston Francis has 87 three pointers for 261 of his points so far this season. How many more points might Warden have had if there was an arc on the hardwood from 1951-55?
Warden also averaged 10.2 RPG for his career. This year's leader so far, Jordan Robinson, is averaging 9.3. And I'll bet Mr. Robinson and his contemporaries train a little more, and eat a little better than Wr. Warden ever even imagined possible. Just sayin'  :)
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Offline iwumichigander

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Re: MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #44978 on: February 17, 2017, 02:11:45 pm »
Greg, granted Jesse Price in 1967 is impossible to know, and not germane to ACTUAL MOP winners.  But I saw every CCIW player in 1967 (many, including Jesse, twice, and the Titan players of course 15-20 times) - Jesse Price was head-and-shoulders above anyone else in the league.

Chuck, that's never been in dispute. And nobody's arguing that Price would not have won the award. He probably would've won the award as a frosh in 1965-66 as well, since he led the league in both scoring and rebounding that season. Dennis Prikkel was around then, too, and he maintains that Price is the best CCIW player he ever saw.

I'm simply sticking to the topic at hand, and you're confusing the issue. ;)

Come on, Ypsi -- GOAT is Sikma.  Get real.

No, it's Price. Dennis Prikkel is not the only old-timer who's said that to me.

(Actually, one gentleman very steeped in years once insisted to me in the airplane hangar that Bill Warden was the CCIW's GOAT. While I nodded respectfully and acknowledged that Warden really did put up some amazing numbers for North Central during the era of the Korean War, I couldn't help but think that the game has changed just a tad since the era of leather knee pads, shorts with belts, and the two-handed set shot.)
had MOP been in existence when Price was a freshman the award would have been subsequently called the Jesse Price MOP award.  Price was a pretty complete player as a freshmen. 

Jack Sikma was a slender 195 lbs when he came to Wesleyan, worked his butt off, put on weight and developed strength to become a more complete, dominating player and developed that infamous shot. (taught by a certain coach named Bridges) to propel himself into a long NBA career. Over a four year period Price just might get the nod.   Dennis P probably saw both play. I too heard all about Price as well as Bill Warden.  During the Price years, you had to get to Millikin very early to get a seat as the place was at capacity almost every home game - not so much the last 40 years!

And, I would note that most if not all the CCIW teams were NAIA or D2 during the Price years.  You saw D1 type players at the NAIA level with athletic scholarship money available with likely a little more help in the financial aid department than you had from the 70s on as CCIW (and other conferences) transformed into D3.
Heck, I can recall some D1 players transferring to NAIA schools to get an education rather than the brutal 3x a day practice schedules the D1 type programs had.  A typical practice schedule was a early 6am practice, a 3pm afternoon practice and a 7 pm evening practice and at some schools 7 days  a week. 

Offline wheels81

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Re: MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #44979 on: February 17, 2017, 04:00:22 pm »
Greg,
So its been a little over 2 months since your December 8th stat line comparison between Francis and Robinson.  Things have tightened up a bit. I am thinking he's more than just the best newcomer to the league. :)

                                                    |---TOTAL---|       |---3-PTS---|                          |----REBOUNDS----|
                                  GP-GS  Min--Avg  FG-FGA   Pct  3FG-FGA   Pct  FT-FTA     Pct     Off Def  Tot  Avg  PF FO   A   TO   Blk  Stl   Pts  Avg
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
01 Francis, Aston..... 23-23  765 33.3 195-423  .461  87-221  .394  76-96   .792   16  53   69  3.0    54    0    75  68   6     51    553 24.0

                                    GP-GS  Min--Avg  FG-FGA   Pct    3FG-FGA   Pct  FT-FTA     Pct    Off Def  Tot  Avg  PF  FO  A  TO  Blk Stl  Pts   Avg
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
24 Robinson, Jordan... 23-23  792 34.4 185-338  .547  56-127  .441 103-150  .687   59 155  214  9.3  68  3   80  58  30  21  529  23.0
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Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #44980 on: February 17, 2017, 05:14:26 pm »
First of all, Bully, let's make it readable:

player  GP-GS  Min  mpg  FG-FGA  Pct3FG-FGA  Pct    FT-FTA    PctORb  DRb  Tot  rpg  PFFO  A  TO  A:TO  Blk  Stl  Pts  ppg
Aston Francis  23-23  763  33.3  195-423  .461  87-221  .394    76-96  .792  16    53    69  3.0  54  0  75  68  1.10     6  51  553  24.0
Jordan Robinson  23-23  792  34.4  185-338  .547  56-127  .441  103-150  .687  59  155  214  9.3  68  3  80  58  1.38   30  21  529  23.0

Second, you're quoting the wrong stats. These are the overall stats. The CCIW-only stats are the relevant database for awards considerations.

Third, where were you two or three days ago when we had this discussion -- using the relevant database, as supplied by lmitzel -- right here on CCIW Chat? Is this just a drop-in on your part? You could've saved yourself some time by actually reading the discussion from earlier this week, you know.

Fourth, you're right ... Francis is more than just the best newcomer in the league. He's a slam-dunk All-CCIW first-teamer, and I said as much either yesterday or the day before on CCIW Chat.

Fifth, nothing you've posted here changes what I sense is the reason for your bimonthy or so appearance in this room, which is to argue for Francis as CCIW MOP. Sorry, no sale. Even by posting the wrong set of data you only reinforce the fact that Jordan Robinson is the best all-around player in the league and the natural choice for MOP.
"Talent is God-given. Be humble. Fame is man-given. Be grateful. Conceit is self-given. Be careful.. -- John Wooden

Offline AndOne

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Re: MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #44981 on: February 17, 2017, 06:28:36 pm »
With regard to the POY discussion............

Should the award not go to the most complete player in the conference?

Scoring will always get you noticed, and top scorers will almost always find their name among those on all-star or all-conference teams, and included in the discussion of awards such as MVP or POY. However, as aficionados of the game know, there are many other aspects of the game that are reflective of a complete player whose individual star not only shines brightly, but who is also capable of making the other players around him better, thus contributing to his team's overall success as well as his own.
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Offline iwu70

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Re: MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #44982 on: February 17, 2017, 08:02:32 pm »
As talented and fun to watch as Francis is, my vote would still go to Robinson for his overall CCIW season of performance.

Francis' time will come.

IWU70

Offline Mr. Ypsi

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Re: MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #44983 on: February 17, 2017, 08:18:06 pm »
This is the hazard of naming the award Most OUTSTANDING Player.  MVP is more clear-cut - whichever player most makes his team most likely to win.  MOP (or POY) can mean anything a voter wants it to mean.  (By any name, my vote would be Robinson.)

(Though, actually, if MVP, I'd be really tempted to go with Francis.  Without Robinson, NPU has enough weapons to still contend for the conference tourney, though probably not make it.  Without Francis, Wheaton would probably be fighting to rise to 7th.)

Offline iwumichigander

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Re: MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin
« Reply #44984 on: February 17, 2017, 08:33:15 pm »
With regard to the POY discussion............

Should the award not go to the most complete player in the conference?

Scoring will always get you noticed, and top scorers will almost always find their name among those on all-star or all-conference teams, and included in the discussion of awards such as MVP or POY. However, as aficionados of the game know, there are many other aspects of the game that are reflective of a complete player whose individual star not only shines brightly, but who is also capable of making the other players around him better, thus contributing to his team's overall success as well as his own.
yes, I would agree that individual and team success have to both be considered.  We have all seen successful individual players on teams that never finish at the top or make it to post season play.  Add team success into the equation - no question Jordan Robinson way ahead.  I think one also has to consider someone like Chrishawn Orange in the mix.  Here is another measurement - can the player play multiple positions ?  The answer is - you could put Jordan Robinson in 1-5 spots and he would be a success.  I can not state that about Orange nor Francis. 
There are few - if any - if any D3, that can play the high post, draw double or triple teams, blow by a defender, dribble drive to the basket, rebound, and handle the ball, create their own shot, distribute and pass as well as Jordan Robinson.
You can figure out how to defend Francis, Orange or Juwan Henry (execute a different problem).  In short, Jordan Robinson is a coach's game plan nightmare.