College ID Camps

Started by Ejay, June 24, 2017, 03:03:17 PM

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Ejay

Curious if anyone has attended a college ID camp, like Future 500 or the like? Is there value in these for rising Fr. or are you better off waiting until after Fr./So. years?  On the other hand, do you suggest attending a college specific camp instead, but again at what age?

midwest

My current D3 player attended Future 500 summer before his senior year because a couple of coaches from schools he was interested in would be attending, and either they didn't have their own camps or he could not attend them. My kid's experience -- which may not be applicable to others -- ranged from "mixed" to "not worth it."  At least in the summer of '15, Future 500 was a games-only format, no team practices, with a couple of skills sessions.  Kids were assigned to teams and had a dedicated coach who stayed with them throughout camp. College coaches were designated to watch specific games, and if a coach were not assigned to watch a specific game, they could roam and watch kids who had reached out to them, or someone they were interested in.  As best I recall, they played 1-2 times a day.  Each day there were several "all star" teams, which played at night, and everyone else watched.  It was strictly a recruiting camp, and the younger kids seemed almost beside the point.  There were a couple of juniors and seniors who impressed everyone, right away, and had D1 programs expressing interest. Most players were chatting with D3 coaches. With each individual player trying to impress, there was not a big incentive for team play and building play.  If it were me, I would not send a 9th grader, and only a 10th grader if they were a realistic D1 prospect who would not get sufficient exposure through their Club (which is very unlikely, I imagine). 

My kid did a college specific camp, for years before his senior year, but it was with a program in our town, and just happens to be a top 10-20 Men's Soccer program -- it was all about player development, and brought him into contact with very competitive players who turned out to be top 20 D1 recruits, but there was no pressure because it was his "hometown"camp.   Your mileage may vary, especially depending on your player's skill level and college aspirations, but we did not focus on recruiting camps until summer before junior year.  Good luck, it is a long process, but a lot of fun to see them land at a school they love, and where they love to keep playing. 

Clotpoll

Son is a D3 player. Led his team in minutes played his freshman year, playing out of position at cb; was his team's nominee for conference freshman of the year. Never wanted to play at a D1 school & based his college choice entirely on academics. Went to Amherst, Middlebury, F&M camps over three summers. As a taste of college life, they were great. Soccerwise, they were useless. All three camps were games-based, putting guys in too many games, no recovery, etc. Some smaller tactical sessions at each camp revealed huge holes in most players' games, but it didn't matter, as virtually all NCAA coaches only look for speed, size, strength and body language. Honestly, the only NCAA coach I've encountered who can rate players is Embick at Akron.

My son has average speed and size, so he attracted zero interest from any program, despite being an A student, four year starter at his HS and multiple conference/all-state honors. He settled on the school he wanted for academics during his senior season, sent the coach a 10-minute film, had a 15-minute conversation with him, and the coach offered him a spot. He ended up getting an excellent academic package and is doing well and enjoying the whole experience.

Based on all the above, I'd say that camps can be useful...IF your son is big, fast, strong and has a knack for showcasing himself (which is a talent!). If your kid is an actual player, with touch, vision, creativity and a sense of team...save your money. Your kid will be much better served by playing futsal, street ball, pickup...or taking advantage of whatever his club offers in the summer if the coaching is good. Focus 100% on getting the academic fit right, and it's very likely the rest will take care of itself.

sokermom

I echo the same sentiments as others to your question.  ID camps for a freshman is waste of money.  Son will start at a D3 school in the Fall.  He also did Future 500 ID camp and attracted a lot of D3 schools' attention.  In the end though all coaches will extend invitation to their own camp.  Even D3 recruitment is competitive mainly because very good soccer players who have strong academic pursuits go for D3 soccer.  In my view, college soccer, at all levels is more physical than technical/mental.  Grind it out kind of soccer and it can be frustrating.  Season is so short and coaches don't get to work with players much it is all games and got to win.  So can't blame coaches for trying to put winning pieces on the field instead of beautiful/creative soccer.  Regarding the money part, coaches at D3 schools work hard to get you academic money (may not be true at top ones like Amherst, Williams,...where getting into those schools itself is big deal).  These camps can be exhausting.  You go in with high hopes, spend money and time at a camp, come back and there will be silence from the coach although he said he will contact in a day or two.  So, anywhere you go, even if the coach says you are his top recruit, don't raise your hopes too high.  The only ones REALLY interested in you will keep calling and texting the player every once in a while and keeping a tab on you.  Others you are just on their list.  I appreciated Lehigh coaching staff when they were honest with my son.  They said he is in their top 20 list but towards the bottom.  So, for them to get to him the top recruits have to go elsewhere.  Knowing that we didn't invest time in that school.  But most coaches are not honest like that.  Good luck.

Clotpoll

Let's be very clear what ALL NCAA soccer is. It is a soccer-like game, played in a sadistically compressed season, with insane amendments to the Laws. Its very structure precludes the chance any team can produce soccer of sustained quality. Choosing a school based on any criteria other than academics is a recipe for a disastrous experience in both sport and school. Gary Kleiban sums up the US game- at all levels- quite well:

"When it's 50/50 jungle ball soccer, results are mostly random with an edge to whoever has better players at 50/50 jungle ball soccer. Random soccer.

Applicable to every single level of the soccer pyramid, everywhere!
And particularly in the US, this is precisely the state of the game.

Think about it ...

It's not the 'best players'. It's the best players for jungle ball (ie, tactics-free) soccer.

What players 'make it' in MLS?

Those who are among the best at 50/50 jungle ball soccer!

When it's crunch time – when it really matters – what players are selected across the US Soccer pyramid?

Those who are among the best at 50/50 jungle ball soccer!

What coaches are considered good, or even great, across the US Soccer pyramid?

Well...those who win of course. And who generally wins most? Yep...You've guessed it!...those who've consistently gotten the best players for 50/50 random, roulette spinning, dice-rolling, jungle ball soccer!

This is not global gold standard football. Global gold standard football is a science, it's tactical, it's choreographed."

luckylefty

Quote from: Clotpoll on June 25, 2017, 08:25:43 AM
Said some stuff

Something worth adding, if your son is an "actual player" as Clotpoll so arrogantly put, camps can be a difficult way for one to get exposure. Camp soccer typically isn't great with varying levels of attendees. It might not just be that NCAA coaches can't "rate players" (whatever that means).

Clotpoll

Most college players would be the first to tell you that the bulk of any squad are technical, athletic players who lack tactical/decision-making skills. It's a different kind of player than what you find in clubs outside the US college game. Tactically-advanced players are rare in the NCAA (think Ian Harkes) and are either overlooked by, or not valued by, your average NCAA coach. Didn't mean to come off as arrogant, but it is my opinion that Jared Embick (just as Caleb Porter, his predecessor) is the only NCAA coach who looks primarily for tactical players who will be comfortable in a passing-possession style of play. His sides routinely outpossess opponents, and their passes attempted/completed per game are 2-3 times more than opponents.

It's interesting to note that Caleb Porter caught plenty of grief for playing possession soccer with the US 23 Men...and the critics stayed on him as he tried and failed to apply the same style in Portland. However, Embick is praised pretty much across the board for playing the exact same way. Hopefully, it's a sign that passing-possession soccer and the cagey, tactical player are attracting interest at the NCAA level.

sokermom

Quote from: Clotpoll on June 25, 2017, 01:35:37 PM
Let's be very clear what ALL NCAA soccer is. It is a soccer-like game, played in a sadistically compressed season, with insane amendments to the Laws. Its very structure precludes the chance any team can produce soccer of sustained quality. Choosing a school based on any criteria other than academics is a recipe for a disastrous experience in both sport and school. Gary Kleiban sums up the US game- at all levels- quite well:

"When it's 50/50 jungle ball soccer, results are mostly random with an edge to whoever has better players at 50/50 jungle ball soccer. Random soccer.

Applicable to every single level of the soccer pyramid, everywhere!
And particularly in the US, this is precisely the state of the game.

Think about it ...

It's not the 'best players'. It's the best players for jungle ball (ie, tactics-free) soccer.

What players 'make it' in MLS?

Those who are among the best at 50/50 jungle ball soccer!

When it's crunch time – when it really matters – what players are selected across the US Soccer pyramid?

Those who are among the best at 50/50 jungle ball soccer!

What coaches are considered good, or even great, across the US Soccer pyramid?

Well...those who win of course. And who generally wins most? Yep...You've guessed it!...those who've consistently gotten the best players for 50/50 random, roulette spinning, dice-rolling, jungle ball soccer!

This is not global gold standard football. Global gold standard football is a science, it's tactical, it's choreographed."

Agree 100%.  Watch top programs like Maryland, the ball is in the air all the time.  Passes are never feet to feet.  Again, coaches recruit those players who they think can win games...and often those are grind it out, fight for those 50/50 ball kind of players.  Not those technically savvy creative players.  Those kind get the boot and get relegated to D3 and D3 can be a mixed bag with quality.,  My son is going to a D3 school as I said but I know from quality perspective he is going to be unhappy.  But he gets to major in Computer Science, work on 3+2 engineering program in a small school environment and play soccer.  So we are quite happy.

Ejay

While some of the replies were clearly off-topic, the were interesting nonetheless. But as a reminder, I'm not interested in what D1 coaches are doing, else I would be on a D1 message board.  I'm simply trying to understand today's process for a young kid that loves soccer and maybe wants to play D3 soccer like his old man did. He's only 14 and entering his freshman year.  Do we need to start attending ID camps? It sounds like no, since he's not a big/strong/fast D1 talent.  Is he better off only attending camps at schools he may have interest in?  In reading some of the D3 camp info, they all claim a majority of their rosters had attended their ID clinic at one time, so perhaps that's the route to take when he's a little older.  Or as one post said, do we skip camp and just create/send a highlight video after Jr. year?  I know we're early in the process, but I want to understand the process so we know what to expect.

AndOne

Quote from: EB2319 on June 26, 2017, 12:49:11 PM
While some of the replies were clearly off-topic, the were interesting nonetheless. But as a reminder, I'm not interested in what D1 coaches are doing, else I would be on a D1 message board.  I'm simply trying to understand today's process for a young kid that loves soccer and maybe wants to play D3 soccer like his old man did. He's only 14 and entering his freshman year.  Do we need to start attending ID camps? It sounds like no, since he's not a big/strong/fast D1 talent.  Is he better off only attending camps at schools he may have interest in?  In reading some of the D3 camp info, they all claim a majority of their rosters had attended their ID clinic at one time, so perhaps that's the route to take when he's a little older.  Or as one post said, do we skip camp and just create/send a highlight video after Jr. year?  I know we're early in the process, but I want to understand the process so we know what to expect.

No coach is going to want to see a HIGHLIGHT video. Are you going to make a video that shows anything but good or great plays? Highly doubtful. A coach is going to want to see a video of an entire game in order to truly assess you son's overall ability and how he might fit in that particular coach's system. Many coaches don't pay a lot of attention to a video they know will only show "highlights." They want to see what a player does away from the ball. how he plays defense, his anticipation of what might happen next on either side of the ball. Does he put himself in position to receive a pass. or to defend one. Does he convert on a high percentage of his opportunities? In other words, they want to see his whole game, not just highlights.

Clotpoll

Thanks. To pull this back to the original topic, I think that parents of high-school players need to understand two things in the college process:

1. If your kid is on a legitimate pro track in the sport, he isn't going to college. In fact, he's either outside the US already or headed there. The USSDA, by its own admission (and demonstrated by its results) isn't developing international-quality pro players in any kind of numbers.

2. If your kid is on the NCAA path, keep in mind that the NCAA hasn't produced one single world-class player EVER. Which means that attending camps, combines and recruiting events pale in importance to finding the right academic fit first. The odds are overwhelming that your kid is joining the workforce or heading to professional school after senior year.

Situations like your son's and mine are by far and away the most common outcomes for talented players who also have academic ambitions. Inevitably, the compromise in the college selection process comes in selecting a school for academic fit first...then accepting the soccer program at the chosen school "warts and all". And, as you so correctly mentioned, some of the biggest warthogs in NCAA soccer are actually the Marylands and other 'name' D1 programs.

All that being said, it's easy to conclude that camps, combines and recruiting events are of little to zero value unless the time and expense involved are minimal. I think my son would tell you that the camps he attended only served the purpose of being eliminators for the sponsoring schools, as he lost interest in them (and, frankly, they had no interest in him beyond getting my check for the camps). Many good coaches will take a kid based on film, recommendations and personal interview, and in the end, I think we'd probably be shocked at how many kids follow this route onto a team. And, I'd be willing to bet that the NCAA coaches who run and participate in the "Elite Recruiting Academy Future 750 College All Star"-type events don't want you to know that.

With NESCAC schools and other 'prestigious' D3-level institutions, a quick look at the current roster can save a high school parent and player a lot of time and money. If you have a kid who goes to public school, and you see 80-90% of a school's players went to prep/private/parochial school...be forewarned! This means your kid stands AT BEST a 10-20% chance of even being offered a spot on the team, much less admission to the school. Coaches at these schools want 100% certainty of no academic issues (and they will suspect even high honors public high school students) and see private school attendance as a prerequisite. Many also have prep/private/parochial recruitment connections that are deep, whether through personal relationships or just the false belief that prep school soccer is a better level of competition with better players. Finally, keep in mind that attending a private school that costs 35-50k/year indicates to a college that such players will make no demands upon the financial aid department. Savvy NCAA coaches are experts in loading their rosters with full tuition-paying practice players in slots 15-25 who will not rock the boat or demand playing time.

Sorry to go on...I feel like I could write a book at times.

sokermom

Quote from: EB2319 on June 26, 2017, 12:49:11 PM
While some of the replies were clearly off-topic, the were interesting nonetheless. But as a reminder, I'm not interested in what D1 coaches are doing, else I would be on a D1 message board.  I'm simply trying to understand today's process for a young kid that loves soccer and maybe wants to play D3 soccer like his old man did. He's only 14 and entering his freshman year.  Do we need to start attending ID camps? It sounds like no, since he's not a big/strong/fast D1 talent.  Is he better off only attending camps at schools he may have interest in?  In reading some of the D3 camp info, they all claim a majority of their rosters had attended their ID clinic at one time, so perhaps that's the route to take when he's a little older.  Or as one post said, do we skip camp and just create/send a highlight video after Jr. year?  I know we're early in the process, but I want to understand the process so we know what to expect.

If all you are doing is poking around for information it is fine but no need to think ahead this far when all you are interested in is D3.  Summer before senior year do ID camps.  I think I did respond to your question in the first round.  My second response was to "clotpoll" post not to yours. 

Clotpoll

AndOne,

Never underestimate how lazy NCAA soccer coaches are. You are absolutely right...but you're describing a competent, conscientious coach. The actual path onto a roster (including my son's) for many players involves a highlight film, an interview and an expectation that the player shows up in August match fit and breathing fire. To be fair, my son's coach conditioned his offer on my son's being able to immediately demonstrate his quality in the pre-season. He was able to deliver, so no problem. There were a couple of guys who showed up not ready to go, and it did affect their playing time greatly.

Clotpoll

Agreed with sokermom. Freshman year is way too soon for any D3 camp. Focus on club, DA or making your HS team's varsity & have fun!

Ejay

Quote from: sokermom on June 26, 2017, 01:17:58 PM
If all you are doing is poking around for information it is fine but no need to think ahead this far when all you are interested in is D3.  Summer before senior year do ID camps.  I think I did respond to your question in the first round.  My second response was to "clotpoll" post not to yours.

Yes, you've definitely been helpful. Like I said, lots of interesting reading, but not all necessarily relevant.  To put my question in perspective, my son and I spent a few days visiting the battlefields of Gettysburg not too long ago.  He really enjoyed it, so Gettysburg College immediately went on his list.  That's one of the schools that has a One-day ID camp (designed for High School age players who have aspirations to compete at the college level and/or are considering Gettysburg College as their college choice) and overnight ID camp (designed for High School Age players who aspire to compete at the college level. The camp will provide training sessions with college coaches. Players will also have the opportunity to be evaluated and identified by college coaches, the camp will provide insight into the college soccer recruiting process, etc..).  And according to their literature, The ID camps are an important recruiting opportunity and last year 75 per cent of the 2017 Gettysburg class attended one of summer camps.

This is where I'm trying to figure out when (and IF) he needs to start attending ID camps for school's that he's possibly interested in attending. But then, not all schools appear to have ID camps so the larger Top 500-tpe camps then become the only option.  However, I'm not interested in attending these so the Coach from Marist or Manhattan invites my kid to his camp if we're not really looking D1.