Final Four moves to Fort Wayne in 2019

Started by AO, April 18, 2017, 01:18:52 PM

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Gregory Sager

The real solution might be to move down a tier in terms of demographics, since, as OJC points out, a Fort Wayne (pop. 260,000, metro area pop. 420,000) is too big for there to be any economic impact (i.e., incentive to re-bid, unless it's to impress the NCAA with the long-term goal to land a D1 event) from hosting the D3 men's Final Four.

Looking at Indiana, the small cities of New Castle, Richmond, and Marion in the eastern part of the state (none of them very far from Fort Wayne) are each roughly Salem's size (in the 20,000-40,000 range), and each has a high school gym whose capacity is between 7,000 and 10,000 (yes, folks, Indiana takes high school basketball very seriously). In Ohio, Bowling Green (pop. 31,000) is close to the Ohio Turnpike and has D1 BGSU's Stroh Center (cap. 4,387). And Erie, PA (pop. 101,000) has Erie Insurance Arena (cap. 6,754).
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

WUPHF

Very interesting discussion on the move...

This may have already been stated, but I'll say that hosting a Division III tournament may be more about helping to bolster Fort Wayne as a regional event destination in general rather than as a stepping stone to hosting more NCAA events.

I used to help plan conferences for our regional professional association.  I was always surprised to the extent to which a town like Rochester, Minnesota or Cedar Rapids, Iowa would go to bring a 200-300 person conference to town for two days.  Cedar Rapids was, of course, one of the big winners in the latest round of tournament site selections.

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

Quote from: WUH on April 28, 2017, 02:47:28 PM
Very interesting discussion on the move...

This may have already been stated, but I'll say that hosting a Division III tournament may be more about helping to bolster Fort Wayne as a regional event destination in general rather than as a stepping stone to hosting more NCAA events.

I used to help plan conferences for our regional professional association.  I was always surprised to the extent to which a town like Rochester, Minnesota or Cedar Rapids, Iowa would go to bring a 200-300 person conference to town for two days.  Cedar Rapids was, of course, one of the big winners in the latest round of tournament site selections.

I've had the same experience.  It always boggled my mind the lengths hotels and CVBs would go to woo me for 200 people.  I guess a hotel night is a hotel night and those salepeople have to justify their salaries somehow.
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Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

I hate to say this.. but this may be the biggest reason I am saddened to have Salem punted to the curb (and I do have an op-ed in the works on that). Salem cared more about the experience then trying to bolster it's position for bigger events. That happened to occur, but it wasn't their goal. Albeit, I will admit it might have been their goal at the beginning, but I am pretty sure they didn't think D1 was suddenly going to show up at their doorsteps.

And to the idea that moving it from Salem will suddenly spur on more bids... I heard that from a few committee members (it was a topic pushed by some at the NCAA)... but let me remind people that four entities bid for basketball and four bid for football. If there was a lack of bids or interest, I highly doubt we would have gotten four bids for this cycle.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.


Onward on, John Carroll

#20
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 01, 2017, 03:17:05 PM
I hate to say this.. but this may be the biggest reason I am saddened to have Salem punted to the curb (and I do have an op-ed in the works on that). Salem cared more about the experience then trying to bolster it's position for bigger events. That happened to occur, but it wasn't their goal. Albeit, I will admit it might have been their goal at the beginning, but I am pretty sure they didn't think D1 was suddenly going to show up at their doorsteps.

And to the idea that moving it from Salem will suddenly spur on more bids... I heard that from a few committee members (it was a topic pushed by some at the NCAA)... but let me remind people that four entities bid for basketball and four bid for football. If there was a lack of bids or interest, I highly doubt we would have gotten four bids for this cycle.

Come on, Dave . . . you know your real concern is whether or not or not Visit Fort Wayne will sponsor Hoopsville.   ;) 

I do not disagree that Salem, simply due to familiarity with the event and the ability to "expect the unexpected" did a great job hosting the event(s).  However, I do not think that they did anything that some other city/host could not do/replicate if they have the right staff in place and give it the attention it needs.  There are some things with which I think Salem went over and above and exceeded expectations but  I do not think they did anything that cannot be duplicated rather easily

Time will tell.  I do think that due to the lack of revenue derived from D3 events, I am not sold on the rotation of D3 championships every two to four years.  I think there is merit to this thinking but I question whether or not, in practice, there will be any benefit realized.

At the end of the day, these kids will be thrilled to win a championship wherever it is hosted.  That said, and despite the best efforts of the NCAA, the host site, etc., it will feel like a big time D3 event but not a big time event, generally.  That is just not possible when you cannot pack a gym and you cannot attract non-participant school-related fans in large (or even mid level) numbers.  Without that, there is only so much you can do.

WUPHF

Quote from: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on April 29, 2017, 08:58:03 AM
I've had the same experience.  It always boggled my mind the lengths hotels and CVBs would go to woo me for 200 people.  I guess a hotel night is a hotel night and those salepeople have to justify their salaries somehow.

Absolutely.

RogK

Allen County War Memorial Coliseum was home for the NBA Fort Wayne Pistons for five seasons, 1952-53 through 1956-57. The franchise then moved to the Olympia in Detroit. The final home game appears to have been a 110-108 playoff loss to the Minneapolis Lakers on March 19, 1957.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/195703190FTW.html
The Indiana Pacers may have played some regular season home games in Fort Wayne, especially during their time in the ABA.
NBA preseason action took place at this arena as recently as October 22, 2015 :
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/boxscore/2015-10-22/Charlotte-at-Indiana/221623
Anyway.

AO

Quote from: RogK on May 02, 2017, 01:55:45 PM
Allen County War Memorial Coliseum was home for the NBA Fort Wayne Pistons for five seasons, 1952-53 through 1956-57. The franchise then moved to the Olympia in Detroit. The final home game appears to have been a 110-108 playoff loss to the Minneapolis Lakers on March 19, 1957.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/195703190FTW.html
The Indiana Pacers may have played some regular season home games in Fort Wayne, especially during their time in the ABA.
NBA preseason action took place at this arena as recently as October 22, 2015 :
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/boxscore/2015-10-22/Charlotte-at-Indiana/221623
Anyway.
The other game in that Lakers-Pistons series might have been played at Hamline.  The Pipers hosted a few playoff games as the other venues the Lakers played at like the Minneapolis auditorium would get booked up for conventions.

Fifth and Putnam

Quote from: ziggy on May 01, 2017, 03:54:45 PM
What were the other two bids?

The only other bid that I had heard was in the final running was the Canton Memorial Civic Center.

Onward on, John Carroll

Do you mean the existing Canton Civic Center or the to-be-built arena at the site of the Pro Football Hall of Fame?  I know that venue is the one that was awarded the D3 volleyball final four in 2020 or 2021.

ronk

Quote from: RogK on May 02, 2017, 01:55:45 PM
Allen County War Memorial Coliseum was home for the NBA Fort Wayne Pistons for five seasons, 1952-53 through 1956-57. The franchise then moved to the Olympia in Detroit. The final home game appears to have been a 110-108 playoff loss to the Minneapolis Lakers on March 19, 1957.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/195703190FTW.html
The Indiana Pacers may have played some regular season home games in Fort Wayne, especially during their time in the ABA.
NBA preseason action took place at this arena as recently as October 22, 2015 :
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/boxscore/2015-10-22/Charlotte-at-Indiana/221623
Anyway.

I remember reading in some book(magazine) about the Celtics that when they played in Fort Wayne, the train would leave them off some miles outside of town and they'd have to hitchhike into town. Shows how small time the NBA was in those days.

Pat Coleman

Quote from: Onward on, John Carroll on May 02, 2017, 02:36:02 PM
Do you mean the existing Canton Civic Center or the to-be-built arena at the site of the Pro Football Hall of Fame?  I know that venue is the one that was awarded the D3 volleyball final four in 2020 or 2021.

The one that's yet to come.
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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: Onward on, John Carroll on May 02, 2017, 10:14:07 AM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 01, 2017, 03:17:05 PM
I hate to say this.. but this may be the biggest reason I am saddened to have Salem punted to the curb (and I do have an op-ed in the works on that). Salem cared more about the experience then trying to bolster it's position for bigger events. That happened to occur, but it wasn't their goal. Albeit, I will admit it might have been their goal at the beginning, but I am pretty sure they didn't think D1 was suddenly going to show up at their doorsteps.

And to the idea that moving it from Salem will suddenly spur on more bids... I heard that from a few committee members (it was a topic pushed by some at the NCAA)... but let me remind people that four entities bid for basketball and four bid for football. If there was a lack of bids or interest, I highly doubt we would have gotten four bids for this cycle.

Come on, Dave . . . you know your real concern is whether or not or not Visit Fort Wayne will sponsor Hoopsville.   ;) 

I do not disagree that Salem, simply due to familiarity with the event and the ability to "expect the unexpected" did a great job hosting the event(s).  However, I do not think that they did anything that some other city/host could not do/replicate if they have the right staff in place and give it the attention it needs.  There are some things with which I think Salem went over and above and exceeded expectations but  I do not think they did anything that cannot be duplicated rather easily

Time will tell.  I do think that due to the lack of revenue derived from D3 events, I am not sold on the rotation of D3 championships every two to four years.  I think there is merit to this thinking but I question whether or not, in practice, there will be any benefit realized.

At the end of the day, these kids will be thrilled to win a championship wherever it is hosted.  That said, and despite the best efforts of the NCAA, the host site, etc., it will feel like a big time D3 event but not a big time event, generally.  That is just not possible when you cannot pack a gym and you cannot attract non-participant school-related fans in large (or even mid level) numbers.  Without that, there is only so much you can do.

Not worried about sponsorship at all. Not what drives me to be honest.

As for what other cities and hosts have to replicate... 75% of what they have to do by guidelines of the NCAA... was first done by Salem. Community Service, host families, mementos for student-athletes, etc., etc., etc. were items that Salem started doing on their own and now are mandated across all DIII championship sites and even some DII and DI sites. So replicating some of this is now because Salem already raised the bar. AS for the rest... we shall see... but my hopes are not high. I have been to many other championship sites in other sports including being behind the scenes for one... they weren't even on the same level as Salem.

And per your thought that the kids are thrilled to win wherever it is hosted... that has not been my impression in basketball. Salem has been a destination for many... it has been about getting to Salem. That has been reaffirmed when the elite eight was in Salem and by those who play in the All-Star game. They all talk about the fact they still "got to Salem."

As for rotating sites... there are some problems with what I am hearing behind the scenes. I am working on something, but from what I am gathering, I believe the men's committee was told erroneous information that forced them into a decision they didn't want to actually make.

Per the sites:
- Salem
- Fort Wayne
- Canton (from what I can tell)
- Fourth I can't get a name on

From what I can figure, I think the committee (outside of two individuals) at first wanted to return to Salem. Then the choice was two years at Salem (which would have given Salem a 25th) and two years at a soon to be built location (Canton from what I can tell). Then it was Fort Wayne. Working on details to confirm all of that.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

AO

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 04, 2017, 12:04:33 PM
And per your thought that the kids are thrilled to win wherever it is hosted... that has not been my impression in basketball. Salem has been a destination for many... it has been about getting to Salem. That has been reaffirmed when the elite eight was in Salem and by those who play in the All-Star game. They all talk about the fact they still "got to Salem."
I bet if you polled every D3 basketball player a large majority would not know where the final four is held.