FB: Ohio Athletic Conference

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Dr. Acula

Quote from: e_lee on October 13, 2019, 12:19:48 PM
As a Cap alum/former player under Jim Collins, yesterday is embarrassing.  Taking a look at stats, it seems JCU did their part as far as not passing.  But as mentioned earlier when on the road you can can only unload benches so much.

If Cap is going to try to be an Oberlin, Dennison, Amherst, Kenyon et al. they need to get in a conference with them.

I can't even imagine how upset you guys that played under Collins must be.  That Collins era transformed Cap and to see it all undone has to be frustrating.  Dr. Bowman made no secret of his indifference towards athletics.  Dr. Paul seemed to be in the same mold.  It's tough to have that attitude in this conference.  With Dr. Paul leaving in 2020 maybe the next president will be more supportive of athletics.

hsbsballcoach7

Quote from: desertraider on October 13, 2019, 01:16:47 PM
Quote from: e_lee on October 13, 2019, 12:19:48 PM
As a Cap alum/former player under Jim Collins, yesterday is embarrassing.  Taking a look at stats, it seems JCU did their part as far as not passing.  But as mentioned earlier when on the road you can can only unload benches so much.

If Cap is going to try to be an Oberlin, Dennison, Amherst, Kenyon et al. they need to get in a conference with them.

It's starting to look like CAP has decided to be Earlham.

The cameras at Wilma were dreadful. The Wilma students calling the game were almost as bad - but that has to be really tough. They kept mentioning how many points Mount scored last week against OTT in 1st qtr - "they scored 28 in 1st last week and 14 this week, so no way they are putting up those numbers" (really?

My favorite was before 3rd started. The one kid says Wilma needs 6 unanswered scores to take the game over. Then he asks the other "do you thinks a comeback is possible?" The other kids says "its feasible. It's entirely possible" - swear to god my water nearly hit the TV. Really?? It's entirely possible to score 6 unanswered TDs against Mount....in the 2nd half...for Wilma? You have scored 3 times against Mount since 2012! But 6 in the second half is entirely possible? Funny stuff.

On UMHB - it sucks. It really does - but it is a rule. The type of car doesn't matter. The rule doesn't say it can't be a porsche, or a BMW, but it can be a Gremlin. It simply says you can't provide it. Period. Have others done it and gotten away with it? Sure. Does D1 do worse? Sure. But UMHB got caught. It is the rule. If it was a one time "hey take my car and go visit your mom in the hospital" then I could see it as different. But the kid used it for 18 months? Don't know the situation but the rule was broken. My question is: no postseason ban, but 2 years probation? What does probation mean? Can Dean Wormer kick them off campus? Or is that only if they are on double-secret probation?

Here's my take on the UMHB situation. Coach Fred broke a rule. I've been in this type of situation before coaching HS and it's not easy or fun, but YOU AS A COACH CANNOT GIVE HIM YOUR CAR! Sure, talk to other players etc., but you can't give him your own car for 18 months!! Then, when one of your coaches says something questioning the situation, you brush it off? You've got to check these situations over as head coach of your program. Did this situation keep that kid at UMHB? Doubtful. Recruiting advantage? Probably not. My biggest problem is that Coach Fred seems to think he is above the rules and this isn't the first time he's broken rules. He should be punished, not the players who earned that championship. In saying all of that, I hope he stays there forever because I honestly feel that he's actually holding that program back from taking the next step in becoming Mount Union.

e_lee

Quote from: formerd3db on October 13, 2019, 12:50:04 PM
Quote from: e_lee on October 13, 2019, 12:19:48 PM
As a Cap alum/former player under Jim Collins, yesterday is embarrassing.  Taking a look at stats, it seems JCU did their part as far as not passing.  But as mentioned earlier when on the road you can can only unload benches so much.

If Cap is going to try to be an Oberlin, Dennison, Amherst, Kenyon et al. they need to get in a conference with them.

e_lee:

Haven't seen you posting much recently, however, glad to see you back.

So, what is your assessment as to why the current dismal status of your alma mater's football program?  Multiple reasons?

Biggest thing to me is the university's identity.  When i played there(98-01), most of my teammates were from Ohio, and middle class public education kids.  We got a pretty good private school education.  Now while Ohio is still the primary base of student body it seems they are going after the same students as the aforementioned schools which are often from elite private high schools, in the Midwest and nationally.  And I get it, there were budget issues for years, probably still are.  Wealthier, higher academically achieving students are likely to need less aid, more likely to contribute to the school.

That being said, get into the NCAC, PAC or some other more appropriate conference. I'm okay with that if that's where the university wants.

As far as internal problems.  I think President Paul and the current AD are doing the right things, with the resources available. Hate to see her go.

President Bowman seemed interested in destroying athletics and Steve Bruning was a speech professor who they decided to make AD.  In over his head.  Screwed up hiring Candeto.  He changed
Personnel to fit his offense and got out as soon as he could, leaving Rogo with bad personnel. He's got a tough job ahead of him.

Plus it's my belief that a certain tenured women's coach worked actively against football.  This person in my opinion was jealous of Collins success.  But I think current admin won't let her get more power than she should have, which is over her once great program.
The eyes are the groin of the head.  -- Dwight K. Schrute

formerd3db

Quote from: Dr. Acula on October 13, 2019, 01:27:52 PM
Quote from: e_lee on October 13, 2019, 12:19:48 PM
As a Cap alum/former player under Jim Collins, yesterday is embarrassing.  Taking a look at stats, it seems JCU did their part as far as not passing.  But as mentioned earlier when on the road you can can only unload benches so much.

If Cap is going to try to be an Oberlin, Dennison, Amherst, Kenyon et al. they need to get in a conference with them.

I can't even imagine how upset you guys that played under Collins must be.  That Collins era transformed Cap and to see it all undone has to be frustrating.  Dr. Bowman made no secret of his indifference towards athletics.  Dr. Paul seemed to be in the same mold.  It's tough to have that attitude in this conference.  With Dr. Paul leaving in 2020 maybe the next president will be more supportive of athletics.
Quote from: e_lee on October 13, 2019, 04:02:10 PM
Quote from: formerd3db on October 13, 2019, 12:50:04 PM
Quote from: e_lee on October 13, 2019, 12:19:48 PM
As a Cap alum/former player under Jim Collins, yesterday is embarrassing.  Taking a look at stats, it seems JCU did their part as far as not passing.  But as mentioned earlier when on the road you can can only unload benches so much.

If Cap is going to try to be an Oberlin, Dennison, Amherst, Kenyon et al. they need to get in a conference with them.

e_lee:

Haven't seen you posting much recently, however, glad to see you back.

So, what is your assessment as to why the current dismal status of your alma mater's football program?  Multiple reasons?

Biggest thing to me is the university's identity.  When i played there(98-01), most of my teammates were from Ohio, and middle class public education kids.  We got a pretty good private school education.  Now while Ohio is still the primary base of student body it seems they are going after the same students as the aforementioned schools which are often from elite private high schools, in the Midwest and nationally.  And I get it, there were budget issues for years, probably still are.  Wealthier, higher academically achieving students are likely to need less aid, more likely to contribute to the school.

That being said, get into the NCAC, PAC or some other more appropriate conference. I'm okay with that if that's where the university wants.

As far as internal problems.  I think President Paul and the current AD are doing the right things, with the resources available. Hate to see her go.

President Bowman seemed interested in destroying athletics and Steve Bruning was a speech professor who they decided to make AD.  In over his head.  Screwed up hiring Candeto.  He changed
Personnel to fit his offense and got out as soon as he could, leaving Rogo with bad personnel. He's got a tough job ahead of him.

Plus it's my belief that a certain tenured women's coach worked actively against football.  This person in my opinion was jealous of Collins success.  But I think current admin won't let her get more power than she should have, which is over her once great program.

For sure, there are a number of problems and challenges all these DIII schools have been facing in recent years and will continue to face with regard to financial aspects and maintaining enrollment, the football programs notwithstanding (Grinnell, Beloit recent examoles, we can add Finlandia in there as well.). However, it also doesn't help when opposing factions i.e. administration, faculty, etc., versus the athletic administrators is going on. Such subterfuge is more than frustrating.

I hope things will improve for Capital both on football and the other areas as you mention.
"When the Great Scorer comes To mark against your name, He'll write not 'won' or 'lost', But how you played the game." - Grantland Rice

purple

    Once again this week Mount Union quarterback D'Angelo Fulford leads D3 in Passing Efficiency with a 229 rating. 

jam40jeff

Quote from: e_lee on October 13, 2019, 04:02:10 PM
That being said, get into the NCAC, PAC or some other more appropriate conference. I’m okay with that if that’s where the university wants.

Capital would likely be one of the worst (if not the worst) teams in those conferences as well.  I noticed you mentioned Capital trying to be "a Denison," but Denison would demolish Capital in football.  Denison beat Ohio Northern 42-13 to open the season, and I'm betting Ohio Northern beats Capital by 40+.

And as far as the PAC goes, I know I will get flamed for saying this, but if you take out Mount Union, is the OAC of today all that much different?  Unless JCU is having a "top 10" year (of which they've had a few recently, but surely not this year), I would put CWRU on the same level as them.  W&J and Westminster would probably be very competitive with OAC teams like BW and Heidelberg.  The rest of the OAC?  Mostly bottom feeders.  Otterbein, Musky, Wilmington, Capital aren't much different from Thiel, Bethany, St. Vincent, Geneva, and Waynesburg.  It says a lot about the conference when Marietta (who still isn't very good) is considered a "mid-tier" team, as well as an ONU team that got pounded by Denison.

This isn't the OAC from 20 years ago anymore.

raiderpa

Have to agree, it seems that the OAC has taken a big nosedive in talent and competitive balance.  I know that Mount dominates, however, there are so many teams that appear to have de-emphasized. Musky, Otterbein, Cap, and Wilmington (never a fit).  Cap was on equal footing with Mount in the Wable era and not that long ago under Collins, they were really good, ie Pentello's ten year run.
Teams that used to put up a fight are rolling over and dying.
Mount and JCU are good, but they were not 75 - 90 points better than these guys a brief time ago.  I don't think it will be long before Wilma, Cap, and a couple others leave for other conferences, but have no idea where.

DuffMan

Quote from: raiderpa on October 14, 2019, 12:23:12 PM
Have to agree, it seems that the OAC has taken a big nosedive in talent and competitive balance.  I know that Mount dominates, however, there are so many teams that appear to have de-emphasized.

The MIAC is similar (as evidenced by Tom Toss  ;D).  If you look at the last 20 years, sure, the Hamlines/Carletons/Augsburgs/St. Olafs were usually in the bottom tier of the conference, but the disparity between those bottom-tier programs and Saint John's, Saint Thomas, and Bethel has definitely grown in the past 5-10 years.

A tradition unrivaled...
MIAC Champions: 1932, 1935, 1936, 1938, 1953, 1962, 1963, 1965, 1971, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1979, 1982, 1985, 1989, 1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2021, 2022
National Champions: 1963, 1965, 1976, 2003

formerd3db

Quote from: DuffMan on October 14, 2019, 03:25:10 PM
Quote from: raiderpa on October 14, 2019, 12:23:12 PM
Have to agree, it seems that the OAC has taken a big nosedive in talent and competitive balance.  I know that Mount dominates, however, there are so many teams that appear to have de-emphasized.

The MIAC is similar (as evidenced by Tom Toss  ;D).  If you look at the last 20 years, sure, the Hamlines/Carletons/Augsburgs/St. Olafs were usually in the bottom tier of the conference, but the disparity between those bottom-tier programs and Saint John's, Saint Thomas, and Bethel has definitely grown in the past 5-10 years.
Quote from: raiderpa on October 14, 2019, 12:23:12 PM
Have to agree, it seems that the OAC has taken a big nosedive in talent and competitive balance.  I know that Mount dominates, however, there are so many teams that appear to have de-emphasized. Musky, Otterbein, Cap, and Wilmington (never a fit).  Cap was on equal footing with Mount in the Wable era and not that long ago under Collins, they were really good, ie Pentello's ten year run.
Teams that used to put up a fight are rolling over and dying.
Mount and JCU are good, but they were not 75 - 90 points better than these guys a brief time ago.  I don't think it will be long before Wilma, Cap, and a couple others leave for other conferences, but have no idea where.
Quote from: jam40jeff on October 14, 2019, 09:52:59 AM
Quote from: e_lee on October 13, 2019, 04:02:10 PM
That being said, get into the NCAC, PAC or some other more appropriate conference. I'm okay with that if that's where the university wants.

Capital would likely be one of the worst (if not the worst) teams in those conferences as well.  I noticed you mentioned Capital trying to be "a Denison," but Denison would demolish Capital in football.  Denison beat Ohio Northern 42-13 to open the season, and I'm betting Ohio Northern beats Capital by 40+.

And as far as the PAC goes, I know I will get flamed for saying this, but if you take out Mount Union, is the OAC of today all that much different?  Unless JCU is having a "top 10" year (of which they've had a few recently, but surely not this year), I would put CWRU on the same level as them.  W&J and Westminster would probably be very competitive with OAC teams like BW and Heidelberg.  The rest of the OAC?  Mostly bottom feeders.  Otterbein, Musky, Wilmington, Capital aren't much different from Thiel, Bethany, St. Vincent, Geneva, and Waynesburg.  It says a lot about the conference when Marietta (who still isn't very good) is considered a "mid-tier" team, as well as an ONU team that got pounded by Denison.

This isn't the OAC from 20 years ago anymore.

That is for sure-many of the conferences are just not what they used to be since that time frame. Talent and even the number of players are both back down at many places from what it used to be.  Of course, there are a multitude of factors that are contributing to that as we've discussed.  Some of the HCAC teams are essentially in the same situation as the OAC and MIAC teams you both mention.  I was not a fan of the proposed idea of a Div IV a few years ago, however, perhaps it is time to revisit that concept.
"When the Great Scorer comes To mark against your name, He'll write not 'won' or 'lost', But how you played the game." - Grantland Rice

DuffMan

Is it a matter of the bottom teams getting worse, the top teams getting better, or both?  I played '99-'02 at SJU, which were some pretty respectable teams.  I feel like the caliber of athlete at those top schools has improved since then.  SJU has definitely drawn players from a larger geopraphic area.  For curiousity's sake, I went back to our 2002 roster and looked at hometowns of all of our starters/significant contributors, and all but one were MN natives (and the other one was from WI).  Twelve of them (myslef included) were from a 20 mile radius around SJU.  That is definitely no longer the case.

A tradition unrivaled...
MIAC Champions: 1932, 1935, 1936, 1938, 1953, 1962, 1963, 1965, 1971, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1979, 1982, 1985, 1989, 1991, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2008, 2009, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2021, 2022
National Champions: 1963, 1965, 1976, 2003

skunks_sidekick

I think Mount from 20 years ago was similar as far as Ohio kids vs other states.  With social media, an emphasis on football (knowing it's an avenue to attract/recruit students which help drive tuition, etc) I just find it puzzling financially that more D-III schools aren't embracing that philosophy.  Snubbing your nose at football and it's "appalling barbaric nature" is actually a detriment to the financial longevity of the college, unless of course your endowment & other avenues are quite robust.

For me, as a strictly business proposition it would seem to make sense to support & embrace the football program as it has many positives in other aspects of the college life and experience.

Phew....that took all the brain power I have. 

MUC57!  GO EVERYBODY!

jam40jeff

I think it has more to do with other non-OAC schools catching up thanks to new investments in athletics.  Around Cleveland, CWRU has put a lot into their new stadium and building a quality program.  It has to dilute the pool of players available to other schools in the area to some extent that they are now able to attract talented players from Ohio and PA.  Also, the rise of D2 schools I believe has hurt D3 overall.  Newer D2 programs in the Cleveland area such as Notre Dame College are able to give money to players that likely would have played D3 20 years ago.

It's just hard to believe that 14 years ago Ohio Northern was able to beat Mount Union, and this year they get their jocks handed to them by Denison.

formerd3db

Quote from: jam40jeff on October 14, 2019, 04:33:46 PM
I think it has more to do with other non-OAC schools catching up thanks to new investments in athletics.  Around Cleveland, CWRU has put a lot into their new stadium and building a quality program.  It has to dilute the pool of players available to other schools in the area to some extent that they are now able to attract talented players from Ohio and PA.  Also, the rise of D2 schools I believe has hurt D3 overall.  Newer D2 programs in the Cleveland area such as Notre Dame College are able to give money to players that likely would have played D3 20 years ago.

It's just hard to believe that 14 years ago Ohio Northern was able to beat Mount Union, and this year they get their jocks handed to them by Denison.

The rise in DII schools and new NAIA programs has definitely had an effect.
"When the Great Scorer comes To mark against your name, He'll write not 'won' or 'lost', But how you played the game." - Grantland Rice

archgemini24

Quote from: hsbsballcoach7 on October 13, 2019, 02:32:31 PM
Quote from: desertraider on October 13, 2019, 01:16:47 PM
Quote from: e_lee on October 13, 2019, 12:19:48 PM
As a Cap alum/former player under Jim Collins, yesterday is embarrassing.  Taking a look at stats, it seems JCU did their part as far as not passing.  But as mentioned earlier when on the road you can can only unload benches so much.

If Cap is going to try to be an Oberlin, Dennison, Amherst, Kenyon et al. they need to get in a conference with them.

It's starting to look like CAP has decided to be Earlham.

The cameras at Wilma were dreadful. The Wilma students calling the game were almost as bad - but that has to be really tough. They kept mentioning how many points Mount scored last week against OTT in 1st qtr - "they scored 28 in 1st last week and 14 this week, so no way they are putting up those numbers" (really?

My favorite was before 3rd started. The one kid says Wilma needs 6 unanswered scores to take the game over. Then he asks the other "do you thinks a comeback is possible?" The other kids says "its feasible. It's entirely possible" - swear to god my water nearly hit the TV. Really?? It's entirely possible to score 6 unanswered TDs against Mount....in the 2nd half...for Wilma? You have scored 3 times against Mount since 2012! But 6 in the second half is entirely possible? Funny stuff.

On UMHB - it sucks. It really does - but it is a rule. The type of car doesn't matter. The rule doesn't say it can't be a porsche, or a BMW, but it can be a Gremlin. It simply says you can't provide it. Period. Have others done it and gotten away with it? Sure. Does D1 do worse? Sure. But UMHB got caught. It is the rule. If it was a one time "hey take my car and go visit your mom in the hospital" then I could see it as different. But the kid used it for 18 months? Don't know the situation but the rule was broken. My question is: no postseason ban, but 2 years probation? What does probation mean? Can Dean Wormer kick them off campus? Or is that only if they are on double-secret probation?

Here's my take on the UMHB situation. Coach Fred broke a rule. I've been in this type of situation before coaching HS and it's not easy or fun, but YOU AS A COACH CANNOT GIVE HIM YOUR CAR! Sure, talk to other players etc., but you can't give him your own car for 18 months!! Then, when one of your coaches says something questioning the situation, you brush it off? You've got to check these situations over as head coach of your program. Did this situation keep that kid at UMHB? Doubtful. Recruiting advantage? Probably not. My biggest problem is that Coach Fred seems to think he is above the rules and this isn't the first time he's broken rules. He should be punished, not the players who earned that championship. In saying all of that, I hope he stays there forever because I honestly feel that he's actually holding that program back from taking the next step in becoming Mount Union.

Pat and Keith also mentioned in the Podcast that said player played a significant role in 2016 and 2017. Scrolled through the South Boards, and there is a thought that playing an ineligible player is somehow not a competitive advantage. I saw that and had to walk away from the board to collect myself, because I am not sure how they could come to that conclusion, especially in 2016 where there were two really close games to close their season. I could see the argument if the Cru had blown out Mount and then Oshkosh. The Cru could have very well won the games, anyway, but we don't know that, thus the punishment is the only thing they could do.

But let's flip it on its head. In 2017, if Mount Union had been playing an ineligible player in the Stagg Bowl, or through the season to get there, it would have been deemed a significant competitive advantage since it could have had an effect on who ended up being the national champion (or even playing for it: Mount needed everyone to get through Oshkosh). Calls would have been for heads to roll. Let's not act like that didn't happen on here with Fulford's situation, anyway. I do not know if everything that went on would have affected his eligibility, but there were still calls for Mount to not play him in order to "preserve the integrity of d3 football" or that Mount was "selling their moral soul to compete for championships."

Shame, too, because I wanted to see if anyone could stop this Cru class from going 59-1 (Mount and Whitewater have a bunch of 58-2 and 57-3 classes, but no 59-1 classes). I guess the answer is their Coach...

e_lee

Quote from: jam40jeff on October 14, 2019, 09:52:59 AM
Quote from: e_lee on October 13, 2019, 04:02:10 PM
That being said, get into the NCAC, PAC or some other more appropriate conference. I'm okay with that if that's where the university wants.

Capital would likely be one of the worst (if not the worst) teams in those conferences as well.  I noticed you mentioned Capital trying to be "a Denison," but Denison would demolish Capital in football.  Denison beat Ohio Northern 42-13 to open the season, and I'm betting Ohio Northern beats Capital by 40+.

And as far as the PAC goes, I know I will get flamed for saying this, but if you take out Mount Union, is the OAC of today all that much different?  Unless JCU is having a "top 10" year (of which they've had a few recently, but surely not this year), I would put CWRU on the same level as them.  W&J and Westminster would probably be very competitive with OAC teams like BW and Heidelberg.  The rest of the OAC?  Mostly bottom feeders.  Otterbein, Musky, Wilmington, Capital aren't much different from Thiel, Bethany, St. Vincent, Geneva, and Waynesburg.  It says a lot about the conference when Marietta (who still isn't very good) is considered a "mid-tier" team, as well as an ONU team that got pounded by Denison.

This isn't the OAC from 20 years ago anymore.

Admittedly i haven't followed D3 football as much the last 10 years or so, i was just going with the schools i remember not being very good, having small rosters, et al.

Here's hoping Cap forms a conference with Hiram, Earlham, Wilmington, etc.

Hot take: it wouldn't surprise me to see Cap drop football within the decade. Looks like they did Saturday.
The eyes are the groin of the head.  -- Dwight K. Schrute