Future of Division III

Started by Ralph Turner, October 10, 2005, 07:27:51 PM

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Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

Quote from: jknezek on August 27, 2014, 08:42:29 AM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on August 27, 2014, 07:40:35 AM
Quote from: sunny on August 26, 2014, 03:12:18 PM
Quote from: ADL70 on August 26, 2014, 02:11:56 PM
Compare to distance runners who compete in XC and both indoor and outdoor T&F.

Which is, frankly, a huge loophole. Considering at this level, you'd be hard-pressed to find a school with different indoor and outdoor track coaches. That's pretty much WHY sand volleyball can happen. I just can't wait until "Outdoor 3x3 Basketball" is pushed for. Don't laugh ...

If you've already got the coaching staff and insurance for football, why not add rugby 7s, especially since it's an olympic sport now?

Coaching for football and rugby are completely different. The strength coach might come in handy, but that's about it. Rugby 7s would have more in common with soccer than football in a lot of ways, although that isn't real close either. I love rugby 7s and played union at the club level in college, but that's a very big stretch.  I'm assuming you mean add the women's sport as well, not the men's. Adding the men's would most likely require adding the women's or some other women's sport, not necessarily the reverse.

Well, you see unqualified coaches doing golf and tennis all the time at smaller schools.  I'm not saying its smart, necessarily - just that it would be possible.
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

Bishopleftiesdad


Bishopleftiesdad

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/diii-committee-voices-opposition-football-proposal?division=d3

And another one. I do not quite understand the early graduation item. In the example do thet intend to allow the baseball player who graduates in December to compete in the spring, or prevent him from competing.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: Bishopleftiesdad on October 09, 2014, 09:24:25 PM
http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/division-iii-committee-explores-options-graduate-students

In my opinion these all sound like reason a ble changes, that benefit the student athlete.

D1 allows grad students to play for a school other than the one from which they graduated. Sounds like D3's moving in that direction as well.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 09, 2014, 11:07:09 PM
Quote from: Bishopleftiesdad on October 09, 2014, 09:24:25 PM
http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/division-iii-committee-explores-options-graduate-students

In my opinion these all sound like reason a ble changes, that benefit the student athlete.

D1 allows grad students to play for a school other than the one from which they graduated. Sounds like D3's moving in that direction as well.

I imagine this would be pretty rare in d3, given the lack of scholarships.  As far as I know, in order to qualify one has to be enrolled in a graduate program that doesn't exist at your alma mater.  A lot of times, when d1 players do it, they're taking classes towards a degree they never intend to get.
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

smedindy

Quote from: Hoops Fan on October 10, 2014, 09:29:31 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 09, 2014, 11:07:09 PM
Quote from: Bishopleftiesdad on October 09, 2014, 09:24:25 PM
http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/division-iii-committee-explores-options-graduate-students

In my opinion these all sound like reason a ble changes, that benefit the student athlete.

D1 allows grad students to play for a school other than the one from which they graduated. Sounds like D3's moving in that direction as well.

A lot of times, when d1 players do it, they're taking classes towards a degree they never intend to get.

Citation please...

They have to have their undergrad degree to do this; plus many students take graduate level courses but don't go for a graduate degree. They get a certificate (teaching) or need a course for work or licensing...

Gregory Sager

Quote from: Hoops Fan on October 10, 2014, 09:29:31 AMI imagine this would be pretty rare in d3, given the lack of scholarships.  As far as I know, in order to qualify one has to be enrolled in a graduate program that doesn't exist at your alma mater.

I don't think it'll be all that rare, HF. Lots of D3 schools don't have any grad programs at all. And other D3 schools do.

Quote from: smedindy on October 10, 2014, 12:18:42 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on October 10, 2014, 09:29:31 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 09, 2014, 11:07:09 PM
Quote from: Bishopleftiesdad on October 09, 2014, 09:24:25 PM
http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/division-iii-committee-explores-options-graduate-students

In my opinion these all sound like reason a ble changes, that benefit the student athlete.

D1 allows grad students to play for a school other than the one from which they graduated. Sounds like D3's moving in that direction as well.

A lot of times, when d1 players do it, they're taking classes towards a degree they never intend to get.

Citation please...

They have to have their undergrad degree to do this; plus many students take graduate level courses but don't go for a graduate degree. They get a certificate (teaching) or need a course for work or licensing...

Thing is, though, we're talking about more than just a course or two. The NCAA's full-time enrollment rules for participation still apply to grad students, even though grad students may be in a different semester-hours or quarter-hours format than the undergrads at the same school.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

smedindy

I understand that. One of my student workers is a full-time non-degree seeking post bac student. (She's getting an endorsement for elementary ed...but not a masters).

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 10, 2014, 05:53:10 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on October 10, 2014, 09:29:31 AMI imagine this would be pretty rare in d3, given the lack of scholarships.  As far as I know, in order to qualify one has to be enrolled in a graduate program that doesn't exist at your alma mater.

I don't think it'll be all that rare, HF. Lots of D3 schools don't have any grad programs at all. And other D3 schools do.

Quote from: smedindy on October 10, 2014, 12:18:42 PM
Quote from: Hoops Fan on October 10, 2014, 09:29:31 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 09, 2014, 11:07:09 PM
Quote from: Bishopleftiesdad on October 09, 2014, 09:24:25 PM
http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/division-iii-committee-explores-options-graduate-students

In my opinion these all sound like reason a ble changes, that benefit the student athlete.

D1 allows grad students to play for a school other than the one from which they graduated. Sounds like D3's moving in that direction as well.

A lot of times, when d1 players do it, they're taking classes towards a degree they never intend to get.

Citation please...

They have to have their undergrad degree to do this; plus many students take graduate level courses but don't go for a graduate degree. They get a certificate (teaching) or need a course for work or licensing...

Thing is, though, we're talking about more than just a course or two. The NCAA's full-time enrollment rules for participation still apply to grad students, even though grad students may be in a different semester-hours or quarter-hours format than the undergrads at the same school.


Right, but without the scholarships, an athlete is still going to choose a school based on the degree program they want.  If that program isn't offered at their alma mater and their new school has a place for them on a sports team and they have eligibility left and they want to dedicate the time to play some more, then it will work out.  I'm not saying it won't happen or that it's bad, just that I think it'll be more rare in d3 than it is in d1.
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

Gregory Sager

Well, of course, but that's because D3 schools tend to be much smaller than D1 schools, and many D3 schools don't even offer graduate programs at all -- and if they do, they don't tend to have the variety of grad programs that D1 schools offer.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Basically... they are making sure that seniors are at least taking classes in order to compete in the final semester. There are some seniors who can graduate in December, for example, and they probably don't want them then competing the next semester if they are not technically in school. It comes down to the student-athlete deciding which is better for them: graduate in December and not play, or hold off and take a few credits to play.

Remember, a senior doesn't have to take a full credit load (to be considered a full time student) in their final semester and still compete... this is just expanding that to indicate they have to at least be taking classes (undergrad, grad, whatever), as I understand it.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Ralph Turner

(This has always been a good message board for serious discussion of institutional issues.)

Brian C. Rosenberg, President of Macalester College, suggests this action against UNC-Chapel Hill in Chronicle of Higher Education.

FTA

Quote..The crime involves fundamental academic integrity. The response, regardless of the visibility or reputation or wealth of the institution, should be to suspend accredited status until there is evidence that an appropriate level of integrity is both culturally and structurally in place.

http://chronicle.com/blogs/conversation/2014/10/24/unc-chapel-hill-should-lose-accreditation/

jknezek

Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2014, 02:37:16 PM
(This has always been a good message board for serious discussion of institutional issues.)

Brian C. Rosenberg, President of Macalester College, suggests this action against UNC-Chapel Hill in Chronicle of Higher Education.

FTA

Quote..The crime involves fundamental academic integrity. The response, regardless of the visibility or reputation or wealth of the institution, should be to suspend accredited status until there is evidence that an appropriate level of integrity is both culturally and structurally in place.

http://chronicle.com/blogs/conversation/2014/10/24/unc-chapel-hill-should-lose-accreditation/

It's not a bad idea, but I'm pretty sure these classes were shut down a few years ago and the major players are no longer at the school. So at this point, pulling the accreditation hurts the wrong people, like the graduating seniors. We always have these problems punishing long after an action. I'm not sure what the solution is here.

Ralph Turner

Dr Rosenberg is questioning the academic integrity of the institution that permitted this to go "unchecked" for years. 

It begs the question of the academic integrity as it relates to all degrees issued by the institution during this time.

How can SACS permit this type of failure of academic oversight in one of its accredited instituitions?

jknezek

Quote from: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2014, 03:28:54 PM

How can SACS permit this type of failure of academic oversight in one of its accredited instituitions?

Now that is a really good question. What good is the watchdog if they aren't catching the important issues? I was getting my MBA at FAU when the graduate programs came under their periodic accreditation review. There were people in the classes, reviewing professors, even looking at assignments. It was comprehensive and had the people at FAU hopping for weeks. Not sure how UNC could skate some of this stuff through.

Either way, UNC and its alumni should be thoroughly embarrassed by all of this. Whether it was done to aid athletes or others it doesn't matter. It's horribly, horribly embarrassing to an institution of higher education.