WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

Started by wheatonc, March 03, 2005, 06:18:19 PM

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iwu70

IWU over CC at the half 41-22.  I guess their system is working.

More on the system discussion later.  I want to watch basketball.

'70

iwu70

IWU 77, CC 50.  This one was never close.

McGraw 18
Nina Anderson a very nice game 16, on 4-6 from 3
Kelly 12
Merritt 10

13 players deployed, run and jump (yes, full court pressure of a sort) doing its dirt again.  It seems to be a winning system, at least.

CC led by Madie Kaelber with 16

Ehresman did play, though limited minutes, scoring 6.

Titans getting stronger and stronger, with good depth, good fitness.  They are going to be tough down the stretch.

Shall I sing the glories of the IWU program more?  Or just quote the facts? :)


IWU'70

iwu70


Mr. Ypsi

Mark, since you haven't found IWU a Yao Ming yet, maybe you could focus on the female equivalent?! ;)

iwu70

On the women's side, Ypsi, I still like the short and fleet ones, the Titan players who can implement "run and jump," play good defense with quickness.  Even though everyone knows it's coming now, it seems to be working pretty well this year and over the past 7-8 years for Mia.  McGraw is putting up some great numbers with her quickness and athleticism and the Titans will of course be stronger when Ehresman gets back to full fitness after the ankle injury.  She's played so well, consistently.  Others are playing well, picking it up for the Titans.  Several very productive sophomores, esp. Merritt.   Nina Anderson had a great game tonight vs. CC.  Of course, many many good teams this year so there are tough games ahead, still a lot of basketball to be played.  But, 5-1 at this stage is very encouraging, esp. the win over WC.

Ypsi, I'm surprised you haven't weighed in on "the system" debate? 

IWU'70

augiefan

I am very surprised and pleased  by Augie's success so far this season with last year's top 6 scorers graduated. However, they were fortunate to play NCC without Raridon and IWU without Seibring, and going forward thet have some real challenges as 7 of their last 10 games are on the road.


iwu70

I appreciate all the comments and perspectives on the "system" debate here.  I take many of Greg's points as valid, I just don't think NCC's adoption of the system will get them to the promised land now or any time soon.  Of course, any good coach tries to adopt offensive and defensive strategies aligned with and attuned with the talent and types of players he/she has.  When I was coaching, I surely did that.  You even do it depending on what opponent you are facing and what talent and strengths and weaknesses they have.  I believe most of the good coaches in the CCIW do that.  I personally am a big fan of full court pressure, also half-court trapping defenses, if one has the personnel to implement them effectively . . . and the fitness of your players to go flat out like that for all or most of 40 minutes.  IWU has obviously had this over some years, has not had many really effective bigs over the years, and does not have good, high-percentage three shooters, so using that kind of system on offense would not make sense.  In the past, they've had better trey shooters.  If you look at IWU's stats, it's always amazing that they are a poor team statistically in many ways, though now improving in the later part of the season.  They win by forcing many turnovers with run and jump, having more possessions and getting many points, often easy points, off TOs.  It is not rocket science.  So in a way they have their system.  This year, of course, they have athletic players and good scorers and a PG who can really take care of the ball, even under pressure, and not turn it over very much.  Ehresman is really solid this way, as are some of the other Titans.  But, the system NCC is using is just helter-skelter, even tiring their players out, even with all the frequent substitutions, and their trey shooting is actually not that great.  Of course, if you shoot tons, you'll make more.  I have no formula about how many treys a team should take.  If good at shooting them and the defense gives you good, open looks, then of course you should be shooting many -- look at the IWU men, for example.  An offense greatly based on getting open threes for many good trey shooters.   But overall, you may not come out ahead.  There are cold shooting nights.   Perhaps Greg is right that at some point, when NCC fine tunes their system and finds better personnel to implement it, they may indeed win the CCIW.  I just don't believe they will, as the top 2-3 teams will almost always have good PGs, ball-handlers, folks that can break their type of pressure and also defend their type of "system" -- even if sometimes losing to it.  I'm sure if IWU has some different personnel in future, a really high-scoring post oriented big, perhaps they will go to a different strategy, different offensive sets.  Actually, one of the reasons they are playing well now is that Maddie Merritt has in fact provided better post defense, interior scoring and rebounding than some of the smaller, more perimeter oriented teams that Mia has had in the past. Plus she is putting together the best season % of FTs ever for an IWU player.  Getting fouled and shooting a percentage like that is a huge plus for the Titans right now.   I'm sure NCC will continue to develop and refine their type of play, perhaps finding even more effective players to play in that mode.  I still think, on balance, that most of the top teams in the CCIW will be able to solve it and beat their system.  IMHO.  (Greg, I'm not singing the praises of the IWU system, just stating the facts about how successful they have been over the past 7-8 years).  Even in the Trump era, facts are still facts. 

IWU'70



RogK

As iwu70 pointed out earlier, Titan 5'10" sophomore Nina Anderson did really well Saturday. The efficient 16 pts were a career high; she has scored at least 6 pts in 9 games already in limited time. And she is proving to be a reliable 3FG shooter, .368 overall and very steady pct-wise game-to-game.
The game I attended, Elmhurst 70-54 over North Park, was a slow defensive-type grind. The turnovers, 20 and 22, were high for a low-possession contest.
EC clogged the lane, cutting off paths Liz Rehberger likes to take and NP clogged the lane, cutting off paths Mikaela Eppard likes to take.
Elmhurst somehow got only 2 assists.
EC's Hannah Lipman had a very nice game, scoring 19 on 6/12 FG and 7/7 FT.
Things got chippy late in the game. I don't know which side instigated more, but I did see Eppard get whacked in the face.
Elsewhere, Millikin was up 62-61 after 3, but Wheaton ruled the 4th Q and won 86-75. Ellie Zeller had a particularly efficient 15 pts. Wheaton committed only 5 TOs. MU's Cassie Somers scored 15 on just 6 FG att.
Augustana eased past Carroll 102-61. Seven Vikings scored in double figures; Kaycee Kallenberger was dominant, with 20 rebounds plus 15 pts. Carroll's Morgan Lund made 13/18 FTs. The Pioneers were poor from threeland : 2 for 18.
Again I'm awake at a goofy hour -- going back to sleep.

iwu70

#5393
RogK, thanks for all the good updates.  Augie is really playing well.  Will be interesting to see how the IWU-Augie games play out. Both teams coming into their own at this point in the season.

Nina Anderson is a very nice surprise, positive addition to the Titan offense just now.  We'll need Ehresman back and fully fit.

IWU'70

lmitzel

Quote from: iwu70 on January 15, 2017, 05:24:50 AM
I appreciate all the comments and perspectives on the "system" debate here.  I take many of Greg's points as valid, I just don't think NCC's adoption of the system will get them to the promised land now or any time soon.  Of course, any good coach tries to adopt offensive and defensive strategies aligned with and attuned with the talent and types of players he/she has.  When I was coaching, I surely did that.  You even do it depending on what opponent you are facing and what talent and strengths and weaknesses they have.  I believe most of the good coaches in the CCIW do that.  I personally am a big fan of full court pressure, also half-court trapping defenses, if one has the personnel to implement them effectively . . . and the fitness of your players to go flat out like that for all or most of 40 minutes.  IWU has obviously had this over some years, has not had many really effective bigs over the years, and does not have good, high-percentage three shooters, so using that kind of system on offense would not make sense.  In the past, they've had better trey shooters.  If you look at IWU's stats, it's always amazing that they are a poor team statistically in many ways, though now improving in the later part of the season.  They win by forcing many turnovers with run and jump, having more possessions and getting many points, often easy points, off TOs.  It is not rocket science.  So in a way they have their system.  This year, of course, they have athletic players and good scorers and a PG who can really take care of the ball, even under pressure, and not turn it over very much.  Ehresman is really solid this way, as are some of the other Titans.  But, the system NCC is using is just helter-skelter, even tiring their players out, even with all the frequent substitutions, and their trey shooting is actually not that great.  Of course, if you shoot tons, you'll make more.  I have no formula about how many treys a team should take.  If good at shooting them and the defense gives you good, open looks, then of course you should be shooting many -- look at the IWU men, for example.  An offense greatly based on getting open threes for many good trey shooters.   But overall, you may not come out ahead.  There are cold shooting nights.   Perhaps Greg is right that at some point, when NCC fine tunes their system and finds better personnel to implement it, they may indeed win the CCIW.  I just don't believe they will, as the top 2-3 teams will almost always have good PGs, ball-handlers, folks that can break their type of pressure and also defend their type of "system" -- even if sometimes losing to it.  I'm sure if IWU has some different personnel in future, a really high-scoring post oriented big, perhaps they will go to a different strategy, different offensive sets.  Actually, one of the reasons they are playing well now is that Maddie Merritt has in fact provided better post defense, interior scoring and rebounding than some of the smaller, more perimeter oriented teams that Mia has had in the past. Plus she is putting together the best season % of FTs ever for an IWU player.  Getting fouled and shooting a percentage like that is a huge plus for the Titans right now.   I'm sure NCC will continue to develop and refine their type of play, perhaps finding even more effective players to play in that mode.  I still think, on balance, that most of the top teams in the CCIW will be able to solve it and beat their system.  IMHO.  (Greg, I'm not singing the praises of the IWU system, just stating the facts about how successful they have been over the past 7-8 years).  Even in the Trump era, facts are still facts. 

IWU'70

I missed the very beginning of this debate in the past day or two with a lot of stuff going on, and I would have said some stuff that has already been said. So without trying to step on any toes (mainly Greg's, because he made a point or two that I would have)...

I can understand the skepticism about The System. It requires the right personnel who are experienced in how to run it effectively. What got left out of the discussion yesterday was that this team already had that one year: the 2014-15 season. We had an elite senior point guard in Bobbi Johns that knew how to run the offense, could attack the basket at will, and was a master thief on the press. We also had a key ingredient no NCC System had before or since: an elite post presence in Tess Godhardt. She was the only player to average double figures that season, and she was averaging about 18 a game. If she wasn't hitting her shots, she could still get her points at the free throw line, but she was about a 60 percent shooter that year if memory serves. Combine that with Jamie Cuny anchoring the press with nightly block parties, backed up by Anita Sterling to draw charges. You also had a good blend of "2" and "3" guards who could shoot and force turnovers on defense. Put that together and you had a 22-6 team that made the NCAA Tournament for the first time in 31 years.

This year's team is still a work in progress, given all of the new faces. There are flashes of that post presence with a few players, but no one on Tess Godhardt's level. When healthy, Jamie Cuny is still doing Jamie Cuny things. Losing Mayson Whipple for the year hurt, though whether it would have helped against, say, Augustana this past Wednesday, I don't know. I'd like to think so, but given the early struggles in that game it might not have been enough.

I guess it all kind of depends on what your definition of "The Promised Land" is, 70. If we're talking "national title contention," yeah, they aren't there yet. But like Greg pointed out, NCC women's basketball in the years leading up to The System, was mediocre at best. My first full year working PA for them was the year before they went to The System, and... I'm just going to come out and say it: they were bad. I worked every home conference game and went to the game at Elmhurst. I don't know how many times I used the words "clogged toilet" to describe that offense, and the turnover numbers were atrocious that season.

But in the four full years of going to The System, the team is contending for the CCIW Tournament every year. They've made it three times, albeit with only a single tournament win to show for it. But that 2014-15 year, North Central played Wheaton about as well as they ever have since the long losing streak started back in '09. Wheaton just made a late run in the conference title game to grab the automatic bid. I agree with Greg's notion that at some point, a System team could win the CCIW. I hope North Central pulls it off in the not too distant future. But it will take the right level of talent, and possibly catching fire at the best possible moment, to pull it off.

RogK's criticism of The System is spot on, as well. The disciplined teams led by an excellent point guard who can direct traffic and break the press will have the most success against The System. That's why Wheaton hasn't lost to it, why Wesleyan has been able to play the Cardinals pretty well since going to The System, and was even to a degree why Augie won the other night (20 fast break points for the Vikings). The elite teams are going to be disciplined enough to not make too many mistakes, and they'll take advantage of their opportunities.

Going to The System has forced me to change the way I think about basketball when I watch this North Central team play. 70, you're right when you note that their three point percentage is not very good. That more than gets offset by sheer volume, as you also noted. And yes, there will be cold shooting nights; I've seen plenty of them. That's where the pressure and forcing of turnovers comes into play. By forcing so many, you end up taking more shots than your opponent, and that disparity adds up (which is why it's one of Arsenault's five goals).

I know I'm kind of rambling and jumbling my words together here a little bit, but it was a lot to catch up on. And I don't have a problem with legitimate criticism of The System, because there are arguments that can be made, and have been made here, against it. But personally, I was a fan of it when Michelle Roof told me she was going to it before the 2012-13 season, after four-plus seasons of it I remain a fan, and, as long as the right personnel are in place for it, will continue to be a proponent of it as a legitimate, fun style of basketball.
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Gregory Sager

#5395
Sorry, Mark, but after your long paragraph I'm even more convinced that you don't really grasp the System. F'rinstance, you refer to it as being "just helter-skelter, even tiring their players out, even with all the frequent substitutions." Well, basketball tires out anyone who is playing it properly; it's all about the rate at which you get tired out that decides attrition. And the Cardinals are noticeably fresher at the end of ballgames than are their opponents. I've seen enough NCC games, including several games the Cards played against opponents other than North Park, to know that. More importantly, by calling it "helter-skelter" you indicate that you don't really know what's going on when you watch the System at work. It's anything but helter-skelter. Listen to Michelle Roof coach her team during a timeout (on one of those occasions in which she's using a timeout as something other than a mere substitution device; she does most of her correcting when the shift that needs correction is on the bench); she'll re-direct drive angles and talk about positioning planes for the shooters in relation to each other. It's as much about geometry and patterning as is any other offense, and it's about as far from "helter-skelter" as you can get. Ask her or Doug Porter to Skype you a chalk-talk sometime. I'm sure that they'd be up for it. ;)

Most importantly, I just don't think that you're really watching the System. I think that you're watching Illinois Wesleyan play against the System, which is really a different thing altogether. Even in a long paragraph ostensibly devoted to discussing the System, you spent more time talking about the Titans, who don't use the System, than about the team that actually does employ it. You're fixated on your own team to the point where you really don't seem to notice the opposition much. And that's perfectly fine. It's the way that a lot of fans, perhaps even most, follow their teams. I'm certainly not going to tell you how to watch basketball, and nobody else here has the right to do so, either. I'm just saying that I don't think you're focusing enough upon what NCC is doing, in the two times per year that you watch the Cards, to really get a handle on what the System is all about.

The System most likely won't win a CCIW title all by itself. To modify an old cliche, it's not about the X's and O's, it's about the Jennys and Flos. Talent is what wins CCIW titles, and the Cards simply have not had enough of it in the System era to compete toe-to-toe with Wheaton and IWU on a regular basis. The true test of the System won't come until the Cards have enough talent to at least be in the same vicinity, talent-wise, as the Sonic Atmospheric Disturbance and the Titans, or whomever else happens to be the conventional team at the top in any given season. That's when we'll really see how effective or ineffective the System is at bridging small gaps in ability between two teams, which is really all that it purports to do in the first place.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

lmitzel

Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 15, 2017, 10:47:22 AM
Sorry, Mark, but after your long paragraph I'm even more convinced that you don't really grasp the System. F'rinstance, you refer to it as being "just helter-skelter, even tiring their players out, even with all the frequent substitutions." Well, basketball tires out anyone who is playing it properly; it's all about the rate at which you get tired out that decides attrition. And the Cardinals are noticeably fresher at the end of ballgames than are their opponents. I've seen enough NCC games, including several games the Cards played against opponents other than North Park, to know that. More importantly, by calling it "helter-skelter" you indicate that you don't really know what's going on when you watch the System at work. It's anything but helter-skelter. Listen to Michelle Roof coach her team during a timeout (on one of those occasions in which she's using a timeout as something other than a mere substitution device; she does most of her correcting when the shift that needs correction is on the bench); she'll re-direct drive angles and talk about positioning planes for the shooters in relation to each other. It's as much about geometry and patterning as is any other offense, and it's about as far from "helter-skelter" as you can get. Ask her or Doug Porter to Skype you a chalk-talk sometime. I'm sure that they'd be up for it. ;)

This. I don't have a full grasp on how exactly the offense of The System works, but I've seen it enough to notice some patterns emerging. There is a science to it, and while I'm not completely familiar with it because I haven't sat through enough of a practice to see them run through it a few times and get the intricacies of it, they're there. That's why one of the high points of last year's postseason banquet was GA and four year player (including 3 in The System) Maryssa Cladis doing a, judging by the laughter it invoked, perfect impression of Doug Porter explaining how the offense worked. If you don't watch it often enough, I can kind of see how you can consider it "helter-skelter", but there is a method to the madness.

And the method works. To kind of expand on Greg's last point: The bad teams are going to get blown out of the water. The teams who are relatively equal to North Central in terms of talent, and even might be a little bit better, are going to struggle and the Cardinals will win a few of those games on the merits of The System and the players making key plays at key moments. Get them against a Wheaton, Calvin, or Hope (thanks, roundball, for bringing up those repressed memories :P ), and those elite teams are going to, by and large, have their way with the Cardinals. Like Greg said, it's not a cure-all. But that combination of System and right personnel can give you something special.

IWU70 brought up that NCC hasn't really broken through against Wesleyan, but that's not entirely true: the Cardinals won four of five against them during one stretch, and just this year the Titans needed overtime to squeak out a five point win in Naperville. Yes, the Titans have turned the tide back again because Mia Smith is an excellent coach and that team is really good year in and year out, but the gap is narrower than you'd think. I'd still take the Titans on a neutral floor, but not by a ton.
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#THREEEEEEEEE

Gregory Sager

North Park had a nine-point lead midway through the second quarter of yesterday afternoon's game, and the Vikings were up by four at halftime and looked to be in good shape. But they fell apart in the third quarter, as Elmhurst went on a 16-2 run to take a ten-point lead and never relinquished it. NPU certainly had its chances even after that point; with 3:30 to go in the ballgame Elmhurst led only by four. Unfortunately, NPU folded like a card table at that point, and the 'jays won going away.

NPU was very effective in going inside to Bri Lippert in the first half; even when she wasn't making her close-in shots she was drawing fouls and putting pressure on the Elmhurst defense. But the Vikings just went away from her completely in the second half; she had ten shots in the first half, and only one in the second. By contrast, Mikaela Eppard woke up from her slumber and was the dominant inside player in the second half, as she and Kaela Jones picked up where Hannah Lipman, who had kept the 'jays in the game in the first half practically all by herself, left off.

Liz Rehberger paced the Vikes with 14, while Clarissa Ramos -- who was very solid for NPU -- finished with 11 and 6. Lippert contributed 10 and 7. Lipman led all scorers with 19 and 6 for Elmhurst, while Eppard had 12 and 9 and Jones chipped in 12 and 6 for the 'jays.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

RogK

NCC's multi-year goal should be to join the ranks of the "elites" and not settle for anything less.
I remember something funny from NCC's November game vs Manchester. You know how someone on the bench will yell "shooter" to remind a defender to tightly guard an opposing long-distance shooter. Well, one of the Manchester players finally yelled, "they're all shooters!"

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

The saying in the NFL is: "on any given Sunday." The idea being that anyone can win a game no matter the match up because, well, things happen. The same could be true in Division III basketball. On any given night, someone will pull off an upset. And in some weeks we see multiple upsets.

What to make of it all? Tune into Sunday's edition of Hoopsville as Dave tries to make sense of most of it with guests from around the country who can provide their insight.

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Guests scheduled (in order of appearance):
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- Claude Shields, William Peace men's coach
- Carol Jue, Chapman women's coach - WBCA Center Court
- Mark Beinborn, Augustana women's coach
- Ira Thor, New Jersey City SID - Atlantic Regional Reporter

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