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General => General Division III issues => Topic started by: smedindy on November 30, 2014, 06:22:38 PM

Title: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: smedindy on November 30, 2014, 06:22:38 PM
It's been reported that UAB's football program will be shut down by the board that runs Alabama, UAB and UA - Huntsville. There are a lot of reasons (bad stadium, apathy) but mostly it's because of reported bad blood and political shenangians. They didn't allow UAB to build an on-campus facility and Legion Field is falling apart and is not a fan-friendly environment.

It's alleged that Bear Bryant's son is the one leading the vendetta against UAB due to a feud with the Bartow family. Murray Bartow started the UAB basketball program after leaving UCLA and the athletics department has grown and in some cases outshines Alabama's in many sports.

The question I have is for state school programs in D3 - could this happen in our universe? Could a program or school get crossways with the trustees or regents and a program could get shut down for no reason except politics?
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: Ralph Turner on November 30, 2014, 07:28:53 PM
Quote from: smedindy on November 30, 2014, 06:22:38 PM
It's been reported that UAB's football program will be shut down by the board that runs Alabama, UAB and UA - Huntsville. There are a lot of reasons (bad stadium, apathy) but mostly it's because of reported bad blood and political shenangians. They didn't allow UAB to build an on-campus facility and Legion Field is falling apart and is not a fan-friendly environment.

It's alleged that Bear Bryant's son is the one leading the vendetta against UAB due to a feud with the Bartow family. Murray Bartow started the UAB basketball program after leaving UCLA and the athletics department has grown and in some cases outshines Alabama's in many sports.

The question I have is for state school programs in D3 - could this happen in our universe? Could a program or school get crossways with the trustees or regents and a program could get shut down for no reason except politics?
For most of us familiar with Colorado College situation, yes, it has happened recently, and before that Swarthmore.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: smedindy on November 30, 2014, 07:32:51 PM
Of course. I was talking mostly about state systems where the governance is sometimes removed from the local campuses - but yes those situations have similarities.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: HSCTiger74 on November 30, 2014, 10:40:59 PM
Quote from: smedindy on November 30, 2014, 07:32:51 PM
Of course. I was talking mostly about state systems where the governance is sometimes removed from the local campuses - but yes those situations have similarities.

  This might be a good question to post on the WIAC and NJAC boards, since both of them are preponderantly made up of state supported schools. Maybe the MASCAC too.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: jknezek on December 01, 2014, 09:41:26 AM
I think it's less relevant than it seems. The Tuscaloosa focused Board has always been skeptical of UAB as anything but a medical school with a commuter college attached. They want the medical school, but the undergrad is really neglected. UAB has always had a doctor as provost, so even the school itself is less interested in the undergrad except as a way to grow.

The athletic focus comes and goes with the various provosts and presidents. In the mid-80s there was an activist provost who wanted to bring football to campus. He got the ball rolling, but didn't stick around long enough, or have enough clout, to actually pay for it. So UAB's football facilities are awful. Not just playing in Legion Field, which is decrepit, but the football offices, practice field, etc., all of it is terrible for a good D3 program, let alone an FBS program.

At this point the Board has to make the decision to invest heavily in UAB football to bring it up to D1 standards, or to let the program go. The Board, which is tepid if not antagonistic toward UAB football since Coach Bryant's son is following in Bear's absolute opposition to UAB football existing, is not going to approve the money. The current UAB provost is not greatly in favor of football either. So outside the football offices, there isn't much support for the program at the admin levels.

Most alums identify with Auburn or Alabama for football, so there isn't even a strong audience for the program although if they started winning it would probably improve. But without a lot of money, the program is an embarrassment.

That is a different issue than our D3 state schools. The funding needs are miniscule compared to the funding needs at UAB. Not to say it can't happen, but shutting down a D3 football program would not happen with the long-term politics and money issues tied up with UAB.

If the Alabama Board could figure it out, they'd probably try and shut UAB's basketball program as well. That program, however, has a strong supporter in the Bartow family. Something football is notably lacking.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: smedindy on December 01, 2014, 11:36:39 AM
Thanks for the insight! I just hope D3 isn't caught in these types of shenanigans.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: Gray Fox on December 01, 2014, 04:29:47 PM
Quote from: smedindy on November 30, 2014, 06:22:38 PM

It's alleged that Bear Bryant's son is the one leading the vendetta against UAB due to a feud with the Bartow family. Murray Bartow started the UAB basketball program after leaving UCLA and the athletics department has grown and in some cases outshines Alabama's in many sports.

GENE Bartow.  UCLA alums ran him out of town because he wasn't John Wooden. :'(
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 01, 2014, 06:37:36 PM
As for UAB as a medical school, it is one of the most reputable in the country.

And when one gets away from the bi-coastal myopia of quality (that is being unable to see anything more than 50 miles inland from the Atlantic or Pacific) UAB is very highly respected.

(Remember the posters that show the view of the United States looking to the west of the Charles or Hudson Rivers.  Q.E.D.)
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: smedindy on December 01, 2014, 08:03:48 PM
Quote from: Gray Fox on December 01, 2014, 04:29:47 PM
Quote from: smedindy on November 30, 2014, 06:22:38 PM

It's alleged that Bear Bryant's son is the one leading the vendetta against UAB due to a feud with the Bartow family. Murray Bartow started the UAB basketball program after leaving UCLA and the athletics department has grown and in some cases outshines Alabama's in many sports.

GENE Bartow.  UCLA alums ran him out of town because he wasn't John Wooden. :'(

I mixed up Bartow father and son...sigh...
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: Just Bill on December 02, 2014, 11:15:53 AM
Looks like it's going to happen...

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2014/12/uab_president_ray_watts_expect.html
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: jknezek on December 02, 2014, 11:22:30 AM
Quote from: Just Bill on December 02, 2014, 11:15:53 AM
Looks like it's going to happen...

http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2014/12/uab_president_ray_watts_expect.html

Interesting. Given the alternative was to dig out $70-$100MM for an on campus stadium and other improvements, I suppose this isn't too shocking. Will be interesting to see if it is trend-setting or if schools continue to strive for that elusive FBS money.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: jknezek on December 02, 2014, 03:58:58 PM
The first FBS program in almost 20 years to die is the UAB Blazers. I suspect if you look around at other mid major teams lacking facilities or with facilities desperately in need of upgrade you will see some administrators thinking very deeply in the near future...
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on December 02, 2014, 04:17:47 PM
Not just football... but bowling and rifle? I'm sure not much money is coming in from those two but they can't be that big of a drain on the budget.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: jknezek on December 02, 2014, 04:26:37 PM
Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on December 02, 2014, 04:17:47 PM
Not just football... but bowling and rifle? I'm sure not much money is coming in from those two but they can't be that big of a drain on the budget.

The important thing is they are WOMEN'S bowling and rifle. They can kill those small teams and probably relatively large costs because they are taking a huge chunk of mens expenses away.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: smedindy on December 02, 2014, 04:35:02 PM
I bet it's a Title IX thing. It works both ways...
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: sunny on December 02, 2014, 05:09:07 PM
If your football team isn't making money and it's not in a "power five" conference, I have no idea why you'd want an FBS football program anymore. We already know "power five" autonomy is coming - why compete in a sport where you have no chance at championship access against programs whose resources already dwarf yours who will soon literally be playing by their own rules? If it's a big resource drain rather than a money maker, I absolutely get dropping it**. Obviously, I feel for the players, coaches, (band members?), but from a practical standpoint, it makes sense - though the shady politics that seem to lie behind it in this case are no surprise.

**or, if feasible, taking it to the FCS level.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: Gregory Sager on December 02, 2014, 06:24:09 PM
The problem is that, according to the al.com article, football is a required sport for Conference USA membership.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 02, 2014, 08:55:41 PM
So where is UAB going after the CUSA?

Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: Gregory Sager on December 02, 2014, 09:01:59 PM
The article seemed to indicate that UAB thinks it can have its cake and eat it, too, as far as staying in the CUSA is concerned.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: smedindy on December 02, 2014, 09:05:08 PM
Well, it's not UAB's fault they were railroaded out of existence, football wise.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 02, 2014, 10:23:29 PM
How badly does the CUSA want the Birmingham television market for the other sports?
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: jknezek on December 03, 2014, 08:59:33 AM
Quote from: smedindy on December 02, 2014, 09:05:08 PM
Well, it's not UAB's fault they were railroaded out of existence, football wise.

This isn't exactly correct. While the Board of Trustees did the ultimate damage, the UAB administration, especially the current president, is completely on board with this decision. The BOT is all about Alabama at Tuscaloosa first, the medical school at UAB second, the science and technology programs at Huntsville third, and somewhere behind that is the undergrad at UAB and the other undergrad at Huntsville. The UAB administration is all about the Medical school first, the undergrad second.

So you can see there are almost no advocates for UAB's undergrad program with any power. The football team got caught up in that, but it's a bigger problem for the school and one very good reason why you shouldn't send your kid to UAB for undergrad. Med school? Absolutely. It's an outstanding med school. But undergrad? No way...

Conference USA basketball has 14 members right now. Kicking out UAB would be a blow, but not a huge one. UAB has not been particularly good in years, although a renewed focus on basketball following this decision might help. The basketball facility is more than adequate for UAB, so they won't have the same problems as football. I could easily see Conference USA removing UAB or changing the rules to keep them. However, if they are removed, I expect they'll find another conference even if they have to drop down a level.

The Atlantic Sun or Big South wouldn't be bad fits. Mid Eastern, Southland, or Sun Belt could also come into play. I don't know which of these conferences have rules that UAB wouldn't fit, but I'm guessing at least some of them would welcome a Birmingham area team.

Other sports, like the generally highly rated Men's Soccer team or the Tennis Teams will suffer from losing a good conference affiliation.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: jknezek on December 03, 2014, 09:30:40 AM
Quote from: sunny on December 02, 2014, 05:09:07 PM
If your football team isn't making money and it's not in a "power five" conference, I have no idea why you'd want an FBS football program anymore. We already know "power five" autonomy is coming - why compete in a sport where you have no chance at championship access against programs whose resources already dwarf yours who will soon literally be playing by their own rules? If it's a big resource drain rather than a money maker, I absolutely get dropping it**. Obviously, I feel for the players, coaches, (band members?), but from a practical standpoint, it makes sense - though the shady politics that seem to lie behind it in this case are no surprise.

**or, if feasible, taking it to the FCS level.

I actually think all the non-power 5 teams should drop to the FCS rules at this point. Leave the big boys to play by their own rules, you aren't going to muscle in on them, and bolster FCS into a spot where the end of season tournament has a lot of the appeal of March Madness. Drop to a 10 game regular season, like D3, and a 32 team playoff, plus bowl or an NIT tournament for other select teams.

You could have the same cinderella possibilities with conference champions like Liberty playing Boise or Cincinnati, you'd drop some costs and scholarship expenses, and you'd have a good sized universe. With only 60 or so teams in the Power 5, that's 30 games a week, and less than half of those will really be interesting on a super regional or national level. FCS would then provide other good competitive games to fill the next broadcast tier.

The absolute kicker, however, is no FCS games against the Power 5. Why? Because you don't want to showcase the differences in quality, you want to showcase the competitiveness at the FCS level...
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: Ron Boerger on December 03, 2014, 10:58:34 AM
Quote from: jknezek on December 03, 2014, 09:30:40 AM
The absolute kicker, however, is no FCS games against the Power 5. Why? Because you don't want to showcase the differences in quality, you want to showcase the competitiveness at the FCS level...

Don't think the teams could survive without the money they'd get from playing the big boys.   Interesting thought, though.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: jknezek on December 03, 2014, 10:59:29 AM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on December 03, 2014, 10:58:34 AM
Quote from: jknezek on December 03, 2014, 09:30:40 AM
The absolute kicker, however, is no FCS games against the Power 5. Why? Because you don't want to showcase the differences in quality, you want to showcase the competitiveness at the FCS level...

Don't think the teams could survive without the money they'd get from playing the big boys.   Interesting thought, though.

There are more teams in FCS than there are gimme $$ games. Those teams survive just fine. It's a certain subset of teams that play those games year in and year out. Other teams never play them.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: Gray Fox on December 03, 2014, 12:05:33 PM
Alabama/Auburn  - Just no room for UAB in the hearts of the Alabamans.  :'(
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: jknezek on December 03, 2014, 12:27:08 PM
Quote from: Gray Fox on December 03, 2014, 12:05:33 PM
Alabama/Auburn  - Just no room for UAB in the hearts of the Alabamans.  :'(

Yes and no. UAB's home attendance this year averaged 20K or so. That's more than Troy University and the University of South Alabama averaged last year. Both of those schools are still competing at the FBS level, and both have on-campus stadiums. UAB was confined to decrepit, off campus, Legion Field. Now last year, UAB was only half this year's level in attendance, so it is contingent on them being decent, something Troy and South AL were not.

That being said, I know more than a fair few Blazer alums who don't go to UAB games. Mostly they are more interested in Alabama. Or they just have no interest in going to Legion Field. But I still think, if 10 or 15 years ago UAB was allowed to build the on campus stadium that the Board of Trustees (led by Bryant Jr) has always denied them, they would have been fine. At this juncture, pouring in all the missing investment that SHOULD have been made over a long time frame is unpalatable and the decision was much simpler.

The problem is not the decision now, that is pretty much a fait accompli based on the current investment needs and state of the program, the problem has been the obstructionist posture of the board over a long period of time. They couldn't stop UAB from starting football thanks to the pull of the Bartow family in the late 80s and early 90s, but the board led by Bryant Jr played the long game, denied any UAB attempt at making the program viable, and won in the end.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: Bombers798891 on December 03, 2014, 12:34:31 PM
Quote from: jknezek on December 03, 2014, 09:30:40 AM

I actually think all the non-power 5 teams should drop to the FCS rules at this point. Leave the big boys to play by their own rules, you aren't going to muscle in on them, and bolster FCS into a spot where the end of season tournament has a lot of the appeal of March Madness. Drop to a 10 game regular season, like D3, and a 32 team playoff, plus bowl or an NIT tournament for other select teams.

You could have the same cinderella possibilities with conference champions like Liberty playing Boise or Cincinnati, you'd drop some costs and scholarship expenses, and you'd have a good sized universe. With only 60 or so teams in the Power 5, that's 30 games a week, and less than half of those will really be interesting on a super regional or national level. FCS would then provide other good competitive games to fill the next broadcast tier.

The absolute kicker, however, is no FCS games against the Power 5. Why? Because you don't want to showcase the differences in quality, you want to showcase the competitiveness at the FCS level...

You'd save on some scholarship costs, but you wouldn't realize savings on facilities until the next time you upgraded them, because you'd still have to maintain your existing ones. You could reduce coaching salaries as well, but again, you're probably forced to wait until the existing contracts run out.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: jknezek on December 03, 2014, 12:38:26 PM
Quote from: Bombers798891 on December 03, 2014, 12:34:31 PM
Quote from: jknezek on December 03, 2014, 09:30:40 AM

I actually think all the non-power 5 teams should drop to the FCS rules at this point. Leave the big boys to play by their own rules, you aren't going to muscle in on them, and bolster FCS into a spot where the end of season tournament has a lot of the appeal of March Madness. Drop to a 10 game regular season, like D3, and a 32 team playoff, plus bowl or an NIT tournament for other select teams.

You could have the same cinderella possibilities with conference champions like Liberty playing Boise or Cincinnati, you'd drop some costs and scholarship expenses, and you'd have a good sized universe. With only 60 or so teams in the Power 5, that's 30 games a week, and less than half of those will really be interesting on a super regional or national level. FCS would then provide other good competitive games to fill the next broadcast tier.

The absolute kicker, however, is no FCS games against the Power 5. Why? Because you don't want to showcase the differences in quality, you want to showcase the competitiveness at the FCS level...

You'd save on some scholarship costs, but you wouldn't realize savings on facilities until the next time you upgraded them, because you'd still have to maintain your existing ones. You could reduce coaching salaries as well, but again, you're probably forced to wait until the existing contracts run out.

All true. It's not an immediate solution for anything. Just a long term structural change that seems like it should make sense to me. I'd actually love to sit down and ask someone with real knowledge. It would be fascinating to learn.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: Gray Fox on December 03, 2014, 03:16:58 PM
jknezek<

Thank you for your input to this.  I already gave you +k.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: jknezek on December 03, 2014, 03:30:15 PM
Quote from: Gray Fox on December 03, 2014, 03:16:58 PM
jknezek<

Thank you for your input to this.  I already gave you +k.

Thanks. It's been a neat discussion. I live in Birmingham but I'm not from here. I don't care about any of the D1 teams in this state except that they keep me entertained and happy coworkers make for a happier day. So it's fairly easy for me to look at this stuff without a lot of baggage. I think it's a fairly unique situation, although you could probably find a few more schools with facilities issues that might see a benefit to following UAB's lead.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: smedindy on December 03, 2014, 03:45:39 PM
There's a lot of national hand-wringing going on about other D-1A programs. Now I know that many teams in the MAC struggle with attendance, and I always wonder why some Sun Belt and C-USA teams moved up to D-1A. But I think they'd drop down more than drop it entirely.

I just hope this doesn't cross over to D-3; hopefully the politics won't enter into it.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: Gray Fox on December 03, 2014, 06:14:11 PM
Outside The Lines on ESPN just did a half hour show on this.
I believe it will be archived, but I couldn't find it yet.

The players really want to play in a bowl.  I know that The Armed Forces Bowl in Fort Worth does not have a bowl eligible armed forces team (Army).  The projected team that I see is Houston, currently 7-4.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: Just Bill on December 04, 2014, 10:32:05 AM
You might think a low level bowl game would invite them now, just for the increased exposure they will bring. That's a compelling national story for an otherwise uninteresting/unimportant bowl game.

EDIT: Or perhaps not...  http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/11977416/uab-blazers-chance-large-bowl-bid-basically-nonexistent
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: Gray Fox on December 07, 2014, 07:17:48 PM
No bowl named them. :'(
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: ADL70 on December 08, 2014, 01:00:01 PM
Curiously though, the much maligned Legion Field is hosting the Birmingham Bowl on Jan 3
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: jknezek on December 08, 2014, 01:08:26 PM
Quote from: ADL70 on December 08, 2014, 01:00:01 PM
Curiously though, the much maligned Legion Field is hosting the Birmingham Bowl on Jan 3

Legion Field has hosted a bowl game for almost a decade. It's still an aging, deteriorating, unpleasant place to watch a game. However, it is at least a football stadium, not something all bowl games can claim with Yankee Stadium, Marlin's Stadium and a cricket field in the Bahamas also hosting games. However, with UAB abandoning Legion Field it will see even less use, and the city will devote even less to the stadium upkeep, let alone improvements.

Legion Field is in a bad section of town, although oddly enough it is close to Birmingham-Southern's beautiful campus. B-SC is walled off from the community and has been lovingly and impeccably maintained and improved over the years. Legion Field is very much a part of that section of town and has had none of the care or devotion of our local D3 institution.

Personally I think UAB abandoning the stadium is another step in the historic field's long death spiral. Birmingham will have to decide to put the money in, believing the bowl game, the Magic City Classic, a few h.s. playoff games, and various other low-key events are worth the stadium costs, or it simply needs to be put out of it's misery.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: Gregory Sager on December 08, 2014, 06:51:18 PM
Sounds like the same story as Buffalo's old Rockpile. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Memorial_Stadium_%28Buffalo%29)
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: Gray Fox on December 18, 2014, 06:37:09 PM
Good story here by Matt Bonesteel.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/wp/2014/12/18/a-5-year-old-tried-to-save-uab-football-with-his-1-allowance/
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: monsoon on April 23, 2015, 07:53:24 PM
Wasn't expecting to see anything else on UAB football, but...

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/12748159/uab-blazers-dropped-financial-reasons-made-money-study-finds (http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/12748159/uab-blazers-dropped-financial-reasons-made-money-study-finds)
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: Just Bill on May 07, 2015, 09:33:25 AM
Travel expenses for bowling and rifle are actually pretty high. The rosters are small, but the travel is a killer. There's not many sponsoring schools in those sports so teams have to travel across the country to compete.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: jknezek on May 07, 2015, 09:39:46 AM
Quote from: Just Bill on May 07, 2015, 09:33:25 AM
Travel expenses for bowling and rifle are actually pretty high. The rosters are small, but the travel is a killer. There's not many sponsoring schools in those sports so teams have to travel across the country to compete.

I skimmed the report but I found it a bit incredulous. Of course analyzing this stuff isn't exactly my job. I just can't see how bowling could break even. I do understand that if you do a lot of tricks to lower the cost of scholarships and add in a value for "student body enjoyment" you can get the numbers to tell you whatever you want. Part of my job involves corporate bonds, so I'm well aware of the multitude of tricks companies use for accounting purposes. It's unbelievable and I suspect both the school's supposed losses and this study's supposed benefits use all those tricks and more to support their positions, leaving the true answer somewhere in the middle.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: Ralph Turner on May 07, 2015, 02:34:41 PM
Pardon my cynicism, but adding Rifle and Bowlling makes it easier to "axe" football, which was the target in the first place.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: jknezek on May 07, 2015, 03:28:23 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on May 07, 2015, 02:34:41 PM
Pardon my cynicism, but adding Rifle and Bowlling makes it easier to "axe" football, which was the target in the first place.

Absolutely no doubt you are correct. That's the school's POV. I was interested in the report saying, somehow, these sports either made money or came close to breaking even. I just can't possibly imagine how that is true in the real world, although I can see lots of ways to make it happen with accounting.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: Ralph Turner on May 07, 2015, 04:21:10 PM
Quote from: jknezek on May 07, 2015, 03:28:23 PM
Quote from: Ralph Turner on May 07, 2015, 02:34:41 PM
Pardon my cynicism, but adding Rifle and Bowlling makes it easier to "axe" football, which was the target in the first place.

Absolutely no doubt you are correct. That's the school's POV. I was interested in the report saying, somehow, these sports either made money or came close to breaking even.  I just can't possibly imagine how that is true in the real world, although I can see lots of ways to make it happen with accounting.
+1! 
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: Gregory Sager on May 07, 2015, 04:34:14 PM
Quote from: Just Bill on May 07, 2015, 09:33:25 AM
Travel expenses for bowling and rifle are actually pretty high. The rosters are small, but the travel is a killer. There's not many sponsoring schools in those sports so teams have to travel across the country to compete.

That's most likely true for UAB. But, surprisingly enough, bowling can actually be a light-travel sport (relatively speaking) for small colleges, depending upon where in the country they're located and the gender that's playing the sport. Here in the midwest, for instance, there's only three D3 schools that have intercollegiate women's bowling programs: Alma, Elmhurst, and UW-Whitewater. But there are eleven NAIA schools in the lower part of Michigan's mitten, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, and eastern Iowa that offer the sport. It's actually feasible for D3 schools located within 200 miles of Lake Michigan to offer women's bowling and have it not be much more of a travel hassle than other sports, if you're willing to play the NAIA teams. (In the NCAA, all three divisions play in one division in women's bowling.)
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: sunny on May 08, 2015, 10:51:43 AM
I'd have to read the full report, but I would wonder if fundraised money/donations are included in the equation and I wonder how they define "making money?" I'd imagine in bowling and rifle, with limited scholarships and perks, all it takes is a couple or so deep-pocketed donors to those programs counted as revenue for their revenue to out-pace their budgeted cost.

Of course, claiming that that is profitable or break even from a university-wide perspective would be completely misleading. Unless the bowling and rifle programs are turning around and giving a large chunk of their revenue back to the school, what's happening is that they are using up all of their allotted funds from the university and then using donations to fund the rest of their expenses - any donated money that they are rolling over to the next fiscal year is probably being counted as "making money." Only issue with that is, without the bowling program existing, the university need not budget ANY money to bowling and the university at large isn't seeing any of the revenue from the bowling team to begin with.

Of course, the value of intercollegiate sports in a true co-curricular context (Division III) can go beyond dollars and cents, but from an accounting perspective, the bowling program can look like it "made money" and still potentially positively impact the balance sheet of the institution with its discontinuation. 
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: monsoon on June 01, 2015, 05:52:23 PM
Maybe UAB football was only mostly dead:
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/12991674/uab-blazers-football-return?ex_cid=sportscenterFB
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: HSCTiger74 on June 02, 2015, 12:15:37 AM
Quote from: monsoon on June 01, 2015, 05:52:23 PM
Maybe UAB football was only mostly dead:
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/12991674/uab-blazers-football-return?ex_cid=sportscenterFB

There must be someone named Max involved in this story in some way. 
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: jknezek on June 02, 2015, 08:36:28 AM
Quote from: HSCTiger74 on June 02, 2015, 12:15:37 AM
Quote from: monsoon on June 01, 2015, 05:52:23 PM
Maybe UAB football was only mostly dead:
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/12991674/uab-blazers-football-return?ex_cid=sportscenterFB

There must be someone named Max involved in this story in some way.

Nah. Just a ridiculous Board of Trustees and a president that completely misunderstood the p.r. realities. I'm not going to say the BOT strong armed him, because I legitimately think Dr. Watts, like most previous UAB admins, doesn't care for anything but the Med School, but he went along with what the BOT wanted quite happily. It blew up in his face and the p.r. nightmare was spreading to the whole school, including the Medical School. In order to stop it he had to eat crow and the BOT let him take the fall.

Unfortunately UAB is in an even worse place now than it was 12 months ago. They still have no BOT support. They still have some of the worst D1 facilities in the nation. They haven't raised enough money to fix the facilities, but they have raised enough money to limp the program along. And any and all good players that helped them get to 6-6 last year, the first non-losing season in a long time, have left. So they need to completely rebuild the program with no facilities, no players, no assistant coaches, and still no hope of getting any money from the BOT. They may have gone 6-6 last season, but I bet they don't reach that mark again for at least 5 years, and that's only if Coach Clarke pulls off a miracle.

The program should have been better supported by the BOT over the last 25 years, but it wasn't because the Tuscaloosa focused Board never cared. It shouldn't have been cancelled, but it was because the BOT finally found an excuse. Having been cancelled, it shouldn't have been brought back. It's going to suck, and it's all the BOT's fault and they will be quite happy that it sucks and will slyly and whenever possible point out that they were right and it should have been cancelled.
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: Just Bill on June 02, 2015, 10:39:09 AM
"So instead of sending you to the electric chair, we're going to dangle you off a cliff by a rope and see how long you can hold on. Sound good?"
Title: Re: UAB Football To Be Shut Down - Repercussions For State School D3 Programs?
Post by: jknezek on June 02, 2015, 11:46:09 AM
Quote from: Just Bill on June 02, 2015, 10:39:09 AM
"So instead of sending you to the electric chair, we're going to dangle you off a cliff by a rope and see how long you can hold on. Sound good?"

More or less. But the thing to remember is how many people are in support of UAB football. They aren't thinking of it as hanging off the cliff even though that is the reality. They were willing to accept anything but the electric chair. UAB needs probably 50MM to 100MM in facilities upgrades to look like a decent D1 program. A new fieldhouse, coaches offices, practice turf, and a legitimate stadium. Legion Field is an ancient mess. Those upgrades are in addition to the 17MM the school said was needed and was raised to keep the program 5 more years. I think they raised commitments for about 10MM of that 50-100. Good luck getting the rest.