FB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference

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bleedpurple

Quote from: 02 Warhawk on January 23, 2015, 04:54:18 PM
Quote from: bleedpurple on January 23, 2015, 01:43:10 PM
Head Coach Finalist Reports on Rob Erickson and Dean Paul now up:

www.warhawkfootball.com

Great write-ups about the coaches, looking forward on reading about the next two.

Thanks, 02. Whatever I can do to save you gas money.  ;)

bleedpurple

"Head Coach Finalist Report: Kevin Bullis" 

www.warhawkfootball.com

emma17

Quote from: wally_wabash on January 23, 2015, 01:30:10 PM
Quote from: emma17 on January 23, 2015, 12:55:44 PM
Perhaps Dean Paul doesn't have aspirations to move up to higher levels.  Or perhaps there are a gazillion other possible reasons Dean Paul applied for the UWW job.
That doesn't change the fact that there may be many high quality coaches out there with career ambitions of making it to the top that might have felt the UWW job was too great a risk for their goals.  I don't think that sort of thought process makes them undesirable coaches.  I don't think it's about intimidation or shadows.  It's about being realistic. 

To prevent any misreading of what I'm suggesting, in no way am I saying UWW didn't end up with high quality candidates.  I'm simply suggesting there may be quite a few that measured the risk and decided they would prefer a different stepping off opportunity.         

I'm not seeing your logic.  You're saying that a coach that wants to achieve the highest success should avoid coming to UW-Whitewater which is the single most win-big-right-now setup (and it isn't close) in Division III?  What am I missing?

Wally, besides what Bleedpurple has pointed out, let me address the wording you choose in your post as it's a consistent pattern with you.  I'm not saying "a coach that wants to achieve the highest success should avoid coming to UWW...". I'm saying I can understand that there may be high quality coaches with big time goals that make the decision not to come to UWW.  In no way am I suggesting a coach shouldn't tackle the UWW job.

I think a case can be made that the UWW job is best suited for a coach that doesn't have aspirations to move up.  That coach then isn't worried about D1 AD's comparing his record to 6 championships in 8 years.     


BoBo

Quote from: bleedpurple on January 24, 2015, 10:29:04 AM

Tangentially, Bobo, you weren't as far off as some have led you to believe regarding Jeff Jagodzinski.  He did initiate contact with UW-W and there was at least one telephone conversation. He did not end up applying for the job, but even the fact that he called demonstrates you were well within the ballpark in mentioning his name.

Thanks for this disclosure, bleedpurple.  Frankly, I really don't care what the "Wabash 40-watt Club" thought of my Jags idea.  I may not have hit it out of the park (this time), but I think I'm OK with a ground rule double and the knowledge that I was right and they were are wrong!!  :D
I'VE REACHED THAT AGE
WHERE MY BRAIN GOES
FROM "YOU PROBABLY
SHOULDN'T SAY THAT," TO
"WHAT THE HELL, LET'S SEE
WHAT HAPPENS."


wally_wabash

Quote from: emma17 on January 24, 2015, 08:27:54 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on January 23, 2015, 01:30:10 PM
Quote from: emma17 on January 23, 2015, 12:55:44 PM
Perhaps Dean Paul doesn't have aspirations to move up to higher levels.  Or perhaps there are a gazillion other possible reasons Dean Paul applied for the UWW job.
That doesn't change the fact that there may be many high quality coaches out there with career ambitions of making it to the top that might have felt the UWW job was too great a risk for their goals.  I don't think that sort of thought process makes them undesirable coaches.  I don't think it's about intimidation or shadows.  It's about being realistic. 

To prevent any misreading of what I'm suggesting, in no way am I saying UWW didn't end up with high quality candidates.  I'm simply suggesting there may be quite a few that measured the risk and decided they would prefer a different stepping off opportunity.         

I'm not seeing your logic.  You're saying that a coach that wants to achieve the highest success should avoid coming to UW-Whitewater which is the single most win-big-right-now setup (and it isn't close) in Division III?  What am I missing?

Wally, besides what Bleedpurple has pointed out, let me address the wording you choose in your post as it's a consistent pattern with you.  I'm not saying "a coach that wants to achieve the highest success should avoid coming to UWW...". I'm saying I can understand that there may be high quality coaches with big time goals that make the decision not to come to UWW.  In no way am I suggesting a coach shouldn't tackle the UWW job.

I think a case can be made that the UWW job is best suited for a coach that doesn't have aspirations to move up.  That coach then isn't worried about D1 AD's comparing his record to 6 championships in 8 years.   

Better to win no championships at a small, selective, private school than to win something less than 6 out of 8 at a large, public school?  No, I don't see that at all. 

Look, I get what you're saying, I just think basically exactly the opposite.  If somebody has ambition to go to Division I, there isn't a better place in Division III to be than Whitewater.  Whitewater's footprint (large enrollment, public, etc) more closely resembles what coaches will encounter in Division I than anyplace else they could be in Division III.  It's not just about all of the winning (although that's obviously a prerequisite).  It's also about having the experience in a larger athletics program at a larger institution.  Going to a place like Whitewater, IMO, can definitely accelerate somebody's transition from Division III to Division I without having to necessarily take the Division II or Division I coordinator step inbetween. 
"Nothing in the world is more expensive than free."- The Deacon of HBO's The Wire

bleedpurple

Quote from: wally_wabash on January 25, 2015, 04:10:12 PM
Quote from: emma17 on January 24, 2015, 08:27:54 PM
Quote from: wally_wabash on January 23, 2015, 01:30:10 PM
Quote from: emma17 on January 23, 2015, 12:55:44 PM
Perhaps Dean Paul doesn't have aspirations to move up to higher levels.  Or perhaps there are a gazillion other possible reasons Dean Paul applied for the UWW job.
That doesn't change the fact that there may be many high quality coaches out there with career ambitions of making it to the top that might have felt the UWW job was too great a risk for their goals.  I don't think that sort of thought process makes them undesirable coaches.  I don't think it's about intimidation or shadows.  It's about being realistic. 

To prevent any misreading of what I'm suggesting, in no way am I saying UWW didn't end up with high quality candidates.  I'm simply suggesting there may be quite a few that measured the risk and decided they would prefer a different stepping off opportunity.         

I'm not seeing your logic.  You're saying that a coach that wants to achieve the highest success should avoid coming to UW-Whitewater which is the single most win-big-right-now setup (and it isn't close) in Division III?  What am I missing?

Wally, besides what Bleedpurple has pointed out, let me address the wording you choose in your post as it's a consistent pattern with you.  I'm not saying "a coach that wants to achieve the highest success should avoid coming to UWW...". I'm saying I can understand that there may be high quality coaches with big time goals that make the decision not to come to UWW.  In no way am I suggesting a coach shouldn't tackle the UWW job.

I think a case can be made that the UWW job is best suited for a coach that doesn't have aspirations to move up.  That coach then isn't worried about D1 AD's comparing his record to 6 championships in 8 years.   

Better to win no championships at a small, selective, private school than to win something less than 6 out of 8 at a large, public school?  No, I don't see that at all. 

Look, I get what you're saying, I just think basically exactly the opposite.  If somebody has ambition to go to Division I, there isn't a better place in Division III to be than Whitewater.  Whitewater's footprint (large enrollment, public, etc) more closely resembles what coaches will encounter in Division I than anyplace else they could be in Division III.  It's not just about all of the winning (although that's obviously a prerequisite).  It's also about having the experience in a larger athletics program at a larger institution.  Going to a place like Whitewater, IMO, can definitely accelerate somebody's transition from Division III to Division I without having to necessarily take the Division II or Division I coordinator step inbetween.

These are fair points.  I think it's a classic "both/and" situation rather than an "either/or" situation.  There are both reasons a D1 aspiring coach might see Whitewater as a favorable situation and reasons that may make him cautious. 

BoBo

Nice recruiting weekend for Buffalo as LL got verbals from 2 for this years class - one from Michigan and one from Indiana.
I'VE REACHED THAT AGE
WHERE MY BRAIN GOES
FROM "YOU PROBABLY
SHOULDN'T SAY THAT," TO
"WHAT THE HELL, LET'S SEE
WHAT HAPPENS."

ExTartanPlayer

Quote from: wally_wabash on January 25, 2015, 04:10:12 PM
Going to a place like Whitewater, IMO, can definitely accelerate somebody's transition from Division III to Division I without having to necessarily take the Division II or Division I coordinator step inbetween.

Key pieces of data (that I don't have, just asking for them):

- how many examples are there (since, say, 1990) of anyone going D3-to-D1 (or even FCS)?  I assume that this is a pretty rare event.  Chris Creighton went from Wabash to FCS non-scholarship Drake and has now made his way to Eastern Michigan, pretty much the least-desirable job in Division I football.  I'm sure some good historians on here can point out a few others, but almost nobody goes from D3 coaching straight to FBS head coach, period.

- given that this is a pretty rare event, and that LL just rode the "monstrous-success-at-UWW" train to an FBS head coaching job, I don't really see how anyone could argue against wally's statement here.

I really doubt that there's a bunch of high-acheiving D3 coaches out there who expect to move up to D1 someday that decided not to apply for UWW specifically because they thought the bar was too high and that it would be harder to make the jump to D1 because they'd have to win 5 titles in 6 seasons to do so at UWW...because they're certainly not going to do that wherever they currently are!

If that was actually their reason for staying away from the UWW job - expectations too high, need to win too much to make their big move to D1 - I'm guessing they don't possess the ego/confidence necessary to become a Division I head coach, anyway.
I was small but made up for it by being slow...

http://athletics.cmu.edu/sports/fball/2011-12/releases/20120629a4jaxa

ExTartanPlayer

Quote from: BoBo on January 25, 2015, 06:32:36 AM
Quote from: bleedpurple on January 24, 2015, 10:29:04 AM

Tangentially, Bobo, you weren't as far off as some have led you to believe regarding Jeff Jagodzinski.  He did initiate contact with UW-W and there was at least one telephone conversation. He did not end up applying for the job, but even the fact that he called demonstrates you were well within the ballpark in mentioning his name.

Thanks for this disclosure, bleedpurple.  Frankly, I really don't care what the "Wabash 40-watt Club" thought of my Jags idea.  I may not have hit it out of the park (this time), but I think I'm OK with a ground rule double and the knowledge that I was right and they were are wrong!!  :D

I mean, you can interpret this however you want, but considering that he chose not to apply for the job, I'm not sure I'd go to the length of "I was right and they were wrong" here. 
I was small but made up for it by being slow...

http://athletics.cmu.edu/sports/fball/2011-12/releases/20120629a4jaxa

Kira & Jaxon's Dad

Quote from: ExTartanPlayer on January 26, 2015, 11:24:35 AM
Quote from: wally_wabash on January 25, 2015, 04:10:12 PM
Going to a place like Whitewater, IMO, can definitely accelerate somebody's transition from Division III to Division I without having to necessarily take the Division II or Division I coordinator step inbetween.

Key pieces of data (that I don't have, just asking for them):

- how many examples are there (since, say, 1990) of anyone going D3-to-D1 (or even FCS)?  I assume that this is a pretty rare event.  Chris Creighton went from Wabash to FCS non-scholarship Drake and has now made his way to Eastern Michigan, pretty much the least-desirable job in Division I football.  I'm sure some good historians on here can point out a few others, but almost nobody goes from D3 coaching straight to FBS head coach, period.


K.C. Keeler went from Rowan (D3) to Delaware (FCS) to Sam Houston State (FCS)
National Champions - 13: 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2008, 2012, 2015, 2017

badgerwarhawk

Quote from: ExTartanPlayer on January 26, 2015, 11:24:35 AM
If that was actually their reason for staying away from the UWW job - expectations too high, need to win too much to make their big move to D1 - I'm guessing they don't possess the ego/confidence necessary to become a Division I head coach, anyway.

I'm guessing that they don't possess the ego/confidence necessary to be a candidate that we wouldn't be that interested in anyway.  While we would like to hire a coach that plans on staying a while we don't want to hire a coach who thinks expectations are too high and/or doesn't embrace the challenges the job presents. 
"Just think twice is my only advice."

emma17

Wally and ExTarten.  You have a tendency to misrepresent views and then refute your misrepresentations.       

Here is what I originally posted regarding the list of candidates and the idea of UWW as a stepping off point for higher divisions:
QuoteHowever, isn't an assistant coach or OC/DC at a D2 school, or a HC at a D3 school taking a huge chance in coming to UWW?  After all, their record will always be compared to LL's.  Even though reasonable people won't expect the same success, they will expect a high level of success.
I'd think there may have been a lot of quality coaches that decided against applying for the UWW job.

Wally, your misrepresentations/distortions of what I said:
QuoteThis is kind of ludicrous, really.  I'd love to see a list of applicants (that information should be public, yes?).  I don't believe Whitewater didn't have an outstanding pool of candidates to choose from.
My point wasn't to suggest UWW didn't have an outstanding pool of candidates to choose from, that's your inference.  I'm simply suggesting there may likely be a lot of quality coaches that decided against applying.   There are lots and lots of NAIA, D3, D2 and even low level d1 football coaches in this country.  When a lot don't apply, that doesn't mean there aren't a lot that did apply.       

And this Wallyism:
QuoteI'm not seeing your logic.  You're saying that a coach that wants to achieve the highest success should avoid coming to UW-Whitewater which is the single most win-big-right-now setup (and it isn't close) in Division III?  What am I missing?
Interesting twist to what I said.  No, I'm not saying that.  I'm saying some good coaches may feel UWW isn't the best route to D1.

And here you are Wally, going full bore manipulation of what I said:
QuoteBetter to win no championships at a small, selective, private school than to win something less than 6 out of 8 at a large, public school?  No, I don't see that at all.
As I never limited my point to "small, selective, private schools", it's a bit silly for you to argue against it.  I specifically included D2 and specifically did not qualify D3 to your manipulated criteria. 
However, if you want to talk exclusively about that group of coaches, I'll address your point this way.
I believe it's perfectly reasonable for a coach with D1 aspirations that believes he has the skills and "template" to build a program and elevate it to a level where it is consistently recognized as one of the best in the country, to think he has a better chance to prove himself at a "small, selective, private school" than he does at UWW currently.  I think a Larry Kehres at Mt Union, a John Thorne at NCC, a Joe Smith at Linfield, possibly an Eric Raeburn at Wabash, (and others) could work the coaching circuit and possibly find work at the D1 level.  I'm not sure if our conversation is limited only to HC positions in D1. 
 
Ex Tarten says:
Quotegiven that this is a pretty rare event, and that LL just rode the "monstrous-success-at-UWW" train to an FBS head coaching job, I don't really see how anyone could argue against wally's statement here.
I really doubt that there's a bunch of high-achieving D3 coaches out there who expect to move up to D1 someday that decided not to apply for UWW specifically because they thought the bar was too high and that it would be harder to make the jump to D1 because they'd have to win 5 titles in 6 seasons to do so at UWW...because they're certainly not going to do that wherever they currently are!

Ex, you used the word "rode" in your opening sentence.  I understand you're not suggesting LL was just along for the ride.  And most germane to this entire conversation is that the Buffalo AD also knows LL didn't just ride the train, but rather drove the train.  Your word "rode" may become the operative description of future UWW coaches in the eyes of D1 AD's.  The template has been put in place at UWW.  Future coaches that follow it and improve on it should do well at UWW.  Those with aspirations of moving to D1 may not get the amount of credit needed for a D1 AD to risk hiring them.   

As such, all this talk about not wanting a coach that doesn't "possess the ego/confidence necessary to become a Division I head coach" is off target.  The truth is, a guy that thinks he can make it to D1 via the D3 route (other than UWW) likely has even greater confidence and ego.  I mean, if ego and confidence is your concern, isn't the guy that so strongly believes in himself that he'd rather take on a struggling program and build it himself the winner of the confidence/ego comparison you are worried about?

wally_wabash

Quote from: emma17 on January 26, 2015, 02:23:40 PM
And here you are Wally, going full bore manipulation of what I said:
QuoteBetter to win no championships at a small, selective, private school than to win something less than 6 out of 8 at a large, public school?  No, I don't see that at all.
As I never limited my point to "small, selective, private schools", it's a bit silly for you to argue against it.  I specifically included D2 and specifically did not qualify D3 to your manipulated criteria. 
However, if you want to talk exclusively about that group of coaches, I'll address your point this way.
I believe it's perfectly reasonable for a coach with D1 aspirations that believes he has the skills and "template" to build a program and elevate it to a level where it is consistently recognized as one of the best in the country, to think he has a better chance to prove himself at a "small, selective, private school" than he does at UWW currently.  I think a Larry Kehres at Mt Union, a John Thorne at NCC, a Joe Smith at Linfield, possibly an Eric Raeburn at Wabash, (and others) could work the coaching circuit and possibly find work at the D1 level.  I'm not sure if our conversation is limited only to HC positions in D1. 

None of those guys went to D1.  Your former coach at Whitewater did though.  So there's precedence from Whitewater.  There's not really the same precedence elsewhere. 

And I made note of "small, selective, private schools" in lieu of saying "the rest of the D3" to really accentuate the point that Whitewater looks and feels a whole lot more like D1 schools than 99% of D3 schools do.  So much so that Whitewater oftentimes feels closer to a D1 school than it does a D3 school.  But that's another topic for another time.  The larger point being that navigating the Whitewater job has a lot more parallels to a D1 job than navigating the job at about 95% of the Division III football membership.  Somebody mentioned KC Keeler going from Rowan to FCS Delaware...similar kind of deal there to what we just witnessed with Coach Leipold. 
"Nothing in the world is more expensive than free."- The Deacon of HBO's The Wire

ExTartanPlayer

#37949
Quote from: emma17 on January 26, 2015, 02:23:40 PM
Ex, you used the word "rode" in your opening sentence.  I understand you're not suggesting LL was just along for the ride.  And most germane to this entire conversation is that the Buffalo AD also knows LL didn't just ride the train, but rather drove the train.  Your word "rode" may become the operative description of future UWW coaches in the eyes of D1 AD's.  The template has been put in place at UWW.  Future coaches that follow it and improve on it should do well at UWW.  Those with aspirations of moving to D1 may not get the amount of credit needed for a D1 AD to risk hiring them.   

Fair enough - I even thought that maybe I should have used a word other than "rode" the train. 

(a tangent, I want to agree with an earlier point that LL's success/failure at Buffalo will be a huge factor in whether a hypothetical next-man at UWW gets a D1 phone call if he manages to win a couple of national titles by "driving the train" that LL has already gotten up to such a remarkable speed)

The other question I have, really what seemed to spur this entire conversation, is about the insinuation that the pool of applicants at UWW was somehow a bit light because certain highly-successful Division III coaches seeking a path to Division I might have chosen not to apply, using the reasoning given by emma above.  Why do y'all think this; not just in hypotheticals, I mean, name some candidates that would have fit that description (D1 ambitions) that you think didn't apply.  Glenn Caruso?  Mike Drass?  I'm not asking whether you actually wanted those guys or not, just asking what current D3 coach y'all think is sitting out there with realistic ambitions of someday getting a D1 phone call as HC who looked at the UWW position and said "Nah, I think I'll get to D1 faster if I stay here."

Some good coaches may have passed because they're just happy where they are.  Some good coaches may have passed because they think perhaps LL's departure will give them a chance to get past UWW and make the Stagg with their current team.  But I want to know an example of a good up-and-coming D3 coach that someone thinks has D1 ambitions who did not put their name in the UWW pool because of the above "I don't think the UWW job will get me to D1" logic. 

Editing to add:

Quote from: emma17 on January 23, 2015, 12:55:44 PM
That doesn't change the fact that there may be many high quality coaches out there with career ambitions of making it to the top that might have felt the UWW job was too great a risk for their goals.  I don't think that sort of thought process makes them undesirable coaches.  I don't think it's about intimidation or shadows.  It's about being realistic. 

To prevent any misreading of what I'm suggesting, in no way am I saying UWW didn't end up with high quality candidates.  I'm simply suggesting there may be quite a few that measured the risk and decided they would prefer a different stepping off opportunity.         

This is what I want to know.  Who are these "many high quality coaches out there with career ambitions of making it to the top that might have felt the UWW job was too great a risk for their goals" that "measured the risk and decided they would prefer a different stepping off opportunity"?  This is the piece I can't figure out.  Who meets this description (that would have been a realistic candidate at UWW, that is; I'm sure that the defensive coordinator at (Generic Mediocre D3 School) might want to make it to the top someday, but seeing that some folks are disappointed in a list with two 100+ game winners on it, I doubt that person would have drawn a favorable response).
I was small but made up for it by being slow...

http://athletics.cmu.edu/sports/fball/2011-12/releases/20120629a4jaxa