MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

Started by sac, February 19, 2005, 11:51:56 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Dutchfan

Quote from: Fifth and Putnam on April 26, 2018, 07:42:37 AM
Quote from: TUAngola on April 25, 2018, 07:25:47 PM
Trine's biggest need for next season is guard depth due to the early and midseason defections of guards off of the team last year.  Other than a wing or 2 most of the listed recruits for Trine are guards.  I would love to see a big or 2 in this class though, heck the Trine womens program have recruited gals with more length then the men  ::).  I doubt that Trine is done recruiting, Coach Miller is good at pulling in an Ohio kid or 2 and I've yet to been able to find any Ohio HS boys scouting twitter sites that have small school recruiting updates.  We also tend to get 1 or 2 transfers in each class, Saginaw Valley's Jake Daniels being one of them so far.     

Prep Hoops Ohio on Twitter does a really great job summing up each days commitments...they cover D3 really well.

TheDZone.com also does a great job for the state of Michigan.

TUAngola

Adrian College commit:

Dontez Rayner

6-4   225lb

Indianapolis Lighthouse South Charter School

Was a teammate of current Adrian guard Jordan Harris at Lighthouse.

ziggy

Micah McLain, 6-2 guard from Parkway Christian (Sterling Heights, MI), will be going to Calvin

Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

sac

#45679
Tyrese Hunt  6-1'ish  G/F  Crete-Monee HS in Illinois commits to Hope.

Edit---upon further review Tyrese is listed as 6-3 on the one recruiting video I watched, I was very skeptical of that height, on another site he's listed as 6-0.  The truth is probably somewhere in the middle so I've changed it to a guess of 6-1'ish.

sac

For those who have followed Duncan Robinson's D3 to Michigan path here's a pretty good final write-up on him from a Michigan blog
http://mgoblog.com/content/shooter



HOPEful

Let's go Dutchmen!

2015-2016 1-&-Done Tournament Fantasy League Co-Champion

Gregory Sager

Quote from: HOPEful on May 08, 2018, 01:37:36 PM
Quote from: HopeConvert on May 08, 2018, 12:41:43 PM
Quote from: sac on May 08, 2018, 11:35:21 AM
https://calvin.edu/news/archive/calvin-college-to-become-calvin-university-by-2020?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Sigh.


"The college also has a large international student population for whom "university" is more visible and better understood than "college.""  ::)

Roll your eyes all you like, HOPEful, but that's really a thing. The term "college" is understood very differently in European and East Asian contexts than it is in the United States. Over there, a college is reckoned to be one of three things: It's either a smaller administrative unit within a university (and many universities in this country are likewise broken down into smaller units called "colleges" in their organizational structure), or it's a privately-run high school, or it's an adult-learning school that provides what we would call "continuing education" or "personal enrichment courses" here in the States. In other words, stand-alone, degree-granting institutions of higher learning such as Calvin or Hope or Olivet or whatever aren't called "colleges" overseas.

Thus, international students often have a headache once they return home in trying to explain to people (particularly prospective employers) that the degree that they received from an American school called a "college" is legit. If you have a large population of international students -- they constitute 12% of Calvin's entire student body -- then that's a very real concern. A similar dynamic regarding a high percentage of international students within the larger student body is one of the two big reasons why North Park changed its name from "College" to "University" back in 1996. It's all about a school serving its constituency as best it can.

The other reason had to do with graduate programs, which were rapidly expanding at North Park when the school changed its name 22 years ago. Typically, American universities have had at least one program that offers a doctorate as the terminal degree (which NPU does), but it's trending here in the States more towards offering master's degees as the terminal minimum. Calvin does have three master's programs (one of my nieces is currently working on her master's in speech pathology and audiology from Calvin), and my guess is that the school is looking to expand in that area, so that does help legitimize the move to a university as well.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

HopeConvert

Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 08, 2018, 02:59:26 PM
Quote from: HOPEful on May 08, 2018, 01:37:36 PM
Quote from: HopeConvert on May 08, 2018, 12:41:43 PM
Quote from: sac on May 08, 2018, 11:35:21 AM
https://calvin.edu/news/archive/calvin-college-to-become-calvin-university-by-2020?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Sigh.


"The college also has a large international student population for whom "university" is more visible and better understood than "college.""  ::)

Roll your eyes all you like, HOPEful, but that's really a thing. The term "college" is understood very differently in European and East Asian contexts than it is in the United States. Over there, a college is reckoned to be one of three things: It's either a smaller administrative unit within a university (and many universities in this country are likewise broken down into smaller units called "colleges" in their organizational structure), or it's a privately-run high school, or it's an adult-learning school that provides what we would call "continuing education" or "personal enrichment courses" here in the States. In other words, stand-alone, degree-granting institutions of higher learning such as Calvin or Hope or Olivet or whatever aren't called "colleges" overseas.

Or Dartmouth. Or Williams. Or Pomona. Or Amherst. Somehow I think they get by.

Thus, international students often have a headache once they return home in trying to explain to people (particularly prospective employers) that the degree that they received from an American school called a "college" is legit. If you have a large population of international students -- they constitute 12% of Calvin's entire student body -- then that's a very real concern. A similar dynamic regarding a high percentage of international students within the larger student body is one of the two big reasons why North Park changed its name from "College" to "University" back in 1996. It's all about a school serving its constituency as best it can.

Well, the 12% includes Canadians, but one might well ask whether high percentages of foreign students is a legitimate desideratum. It really should be about a school serving its mission and its tradition the best it can. But Calvin is too busy being "innovative" to be bothered with such questions.

The other reason had to do with graduate programs, which were rapidly expanding at North Park when the school changed its name 22 years ago. Typically, American universities have had at least one program that offers a doctorate as the terminal degree (which NPU does), but it's trending here in the States more towards offering master's degees as the terminal minimum. Calvin does have three master's programs (one of my nieces is currently working on her master's in speech pathology and audiology from Calvin), and my guess is that the school is looking to expand in that area, so that does help legitimize the move to a university as well.

Yeah, well, you can have grad programs and not be a university (see Dartmouth, above). But one might well ask whether the mission and tradition of the college, as well as its fiscal health, is well served by such expansions.
One Mississippi, Two Mississippi...

ziggy

Quote from: HopeConvert on May 08, 2018, 03:19:34 PM
Well, the 12% includes Canadians, but one might well ask whether high percentages of foreign students is a legitimate desideratum. It really should be about a school serving its mission and its tradition the best it can. But Calvin is too busy being "innovative" to be bothered with such questions.

"Make Calvin Great Again"

HOPEful

My eye roll wasn't that I don't believe the statement to be true, but that it's a rather ridiculous reason to change your name. The statement could literally be rephrased to, "A portion of our students don't understand what a college is." It's patronizing and superficial.

I honestly wonder if there are decision makers at calvin who believe they are losing prospective students to Cornerstone, not because of cost of tuition, athletic scholarships, or that they genuinely like the newer buildings, neighborhood, and campus better, but solely because they are a "university" and not a "college".
Let's go Dutchmen!

2015-2016 1-&-Done Tournament Fantasy League Co-Champion

WUPHF

If I were a President of an elite liberal arts college, I may be inclined to keep the institution as a college in regards to branding because I think this could become more valuable over the long haul.  As many institutions look to compete in the market place through innovative, disruptive, boot camp-style blah, blah, blah approaches, I do think there is a tremendous opportunity for institutions to market the traditional college experience.

Calvin ranks 5th overall in regards to international students with 476, so certainly a significant percentage of those are Canadians.

That is a good number and I would be surprised if the administration plans to increase that percentage, though certainly the average degree-seeking international student is paying more than the average American student which, for what it is worth, is good for the basketball team.

In regards to the specific comment about international students, it can be extremely difficult to know from a press release to know how much that particular point matters, so I would not read too much in to it unless I knew more of the situation.

Incidentally, Trine has the 4th most international students for liberal arts colleges.


Gregory Sager

Quote from: HopeConvert on May 08, 2018, 03:19:34 PM
Or Dartmouth. Or Williams. Or Pomona. Or Amherst. Somehow I think they get by.

Does Calvin have the international name recognition built up over centuries that Dartmouth, Williams, and Amherst have? No, it doesn't. Apples and oranges.

Quote from: HopeConvert on May 08, 2018, 03:19:34 PMWell, the 12% includes Canadians

Well, if you really want to get into the weeds on this that badly, I'm willing to modify the percentage ... if you're willing to dig out the data as to what percentage of the Calvin student body consists of Canadians.  ;)

Quote from: HopeConvert on May 08, 2018, 03:19:34 PM, but one might well ask whether high percentages of foreign students is a legitimate desideratum.

Sure, one might well ask. And one might well answer, "Yes, it is."

Quote from: HopeConvert on May 08, 2018, 03:19:34 PMIt really should be about a school serving its mission and its tradition the best it can.

... which could legitimately mean changing the name. With regard to tradition, I can't speak as to how long Calvin has had such a high proportion of international students, so I'm agnostic on that subject. But enrolling a high percentage of international students could very well be an aspect of Calvin "serving its mission", so I'm not going to gainsay Calvin on that score.

Quote from: HopeConvert on May 08, 2018, 03:19:34 PM
But Calvin is too busy being "innovative" to be bothered with such questions.[/b]

Really? Do you know for a fact that these questions were never taken under consideration by the people who run Calvin? Or is this a matter of you disagreeing with the decision, and then coming to the independent conclusion that Calvin didn't think it through because the school's braintrust doesn't agree with you?

Quote from: HopeConvert on May 08, 2018, 03:19:34 PMYeah, well, you can have grad programs and not be a university (see Dartmouth, above).

The terminology isn't used in a standardized manner by American institutions of higher learning, as you (and probably all of us who read this room) well know, because there is neither the will nor the capacity for accrediting bodies to standardize and enforce the nomenclature, or for the government on any level to step in and grant accrediting bodies such power. By strict definition, using the existence of grad programs as the marker, Wheaton College is a university and Illinois Wesleyan University is a college. So that's not the question. The issue is whether or not Calvin can plausibly call itself a university according to the traditional model, not whether or not it has the right to do so.

Quote from: HopeConvert on May 08, 2018, 03:19:34 PMBut one might well ask whether the mission and tradition of the college, as well as its fiscal health, is well served by such expansions.

I don't know how long Calvin has had graduate programs. I doubt that they've been around for very many years (I know that the master's in accounting program was added just this school year), so it's likely that this isn't an aspect of the school that readily lends itself to tradtion. Yet tradition can be a shaky foundation upon which to build such an argument, since growth and expansion typically defy tradition in at least some respects. Even for a school that isn't growing, change to some degree is a necessary part of survival, especially since American higher education is market-driven and the students of this generation have a very different set of expectations and motivations regarding the college experience than do preceding generations. Indeed, whether for good or for ill, one of the salient facts of the modern paradigm in higher education is that schools are more sensitive to the perceived needs and desires of potential students than they used to be.

In concert with the needs of the school, that may override tradition. For example, to use a subject near and dear to the hearts of Calvinites, their school has never established a football program, in spite of the fact that the school conducted detailed studies of the pros and cons of adding football, first in 1967, then again in 1987, and yet again earlier in this decade. Each time, Calvin ultimately decided not to add the sport. Yet a number of D3 schools have abandoned their no-football traditions in recent years by adopting the sport in order to attract more males to campus (even non-football-playing males are more likely to choose a school that offers football than one that doesn't, all other factors being equal) and to increase tuition revenue.

As for mission and/or fiscal health, I am again agnostic as to how well graduate programs suit the school's mission and its budgetary bottom line, and it would take someone more attuned to Calvin's institutional pulse to answer that for me. But, again, I can speak to what I know about this through the lens of my alma mater; the old saying about North Park, especially when the subject of endowment came up, was that it didn't turn out captains of industry; instead, it turned out "teachers, preachers, and nurses". As time went on, it became internally apparent (i.e., via the education and nursing faculties) that graduate-level programs in those fields would: a) improve the school's overall reputation in them; b) build upon current faculty strengths; and c) make the school more attractive even to prospective undergraduates thinking of majoring in education or nursing, to say nothing of potential grad students. In other words, expanding into graduate education served both the tradition and mission of NPU with regard to the education and nursing fields. That may be the case with Calvin, too; again, I don't know Calvin well enough to say, although this article in the campus newspaper quotes two respected Calvin voices, Nicholas Wolterstorff and Joel Carpenter, as answering in the affirmative.

Quote from: HOPEful on May 08, 2018, 03:39:56 PM
My eye roll wasn't that I don't believe the statement to be true, but that it's a rather ridiculous reason to change your name. The statement could literally be rephrased to, "A portion of our students don't understand what a college is." It's patronizing and superficial.

It's none of those things. You're not perceiving the intended meaning of the sentence, although to be fair I don't think it was written very clearly. In that sentence:

QuoteThe college also has a large international student population for whom "university" is more visible and better understood than "college."

... the implied subject, the people who better understand "university" than "college", are the people in the home countries of the international students, not the international students themselves. It's rather absurd to consider the international students as the subjects of that sentence, because, as Calvin students, they know exactly what sort of an institution it is that they are spending a considerable amount of money to attend. But they need it to be better understood by the people back home with whom they're going to interact for the rest of their lives.

Quote from: HOPEful on May 08, 2018, 03:39:56 PMI honestly wonder if there are decision makers at calvin who believe they are losing prospective students to Cornerstone, not because of cost of tuition, athletic scholarships, or that they genuinely like the newer buildings, neighborhood, and campus better, but solely because they are a "university" and not a "college".

That's a fair question. I'd only advise people not to leap to conclusions based upon speculation without facts. Again, I'd like to see Calvinites address this, since they're more in the know than either you or I vis-a-vis Calvin versus Cornerstone.

Quote from: WUPHF on May 08, 2018, 03:47:25 PM
If I were a President of an elite liberal arts college, I may be inclined to keep the institution as a college in regards to branding because I think this could become more valuable over the long haul.

I think that that's an entirely legitimate inclination. I'm simply arguing that, contra HopeConvert, it's certainly possible to take that retain-the-brand inclination into due consideration and yet eventually come to a decision that moves in the other direction.

Quote from: WUPHF on May 08, 2018, 03:47:25 PMAs many institutions look to compete in the market place through innovative, disruptive, boot camp-style blah, blah, blah approaches, I do think there is a tremendous opportunity for institutions to market the traditional college experience.

Marketing's another matter, though, and I'm not sure that it really enters into this. Name change or not, even with its expansion into graduate education Calvin at its core will continue to primarily be an undergraduate liberal-arts college. And I'm sure that the school will continue to market itself to prospective students in much the same manner as before, focusing upon the traditional college experience (i.e., residential undergraduate education aimed at 18-to-21-year-olds).

Quote from: WUPHF on May 08, 2018, 03:47:25 PMCalvin ranks 5th overall in regards to international students with 476, so certainly a significant percentage of those are Canadians.

"Certainly"? Again, how signficant? What are the numbers? I think it makes sense to examine the Calvin hockey roster first for evidence of a Canadian student population of any size. And yet there's only four sons of the maple leaf there amid a roster of 26.

Quote from: WUPHF on May 08, 2018, 03:47:25 PMThat is a good number and I would be surprised if the administration plans to increase that percentage, though certainly the average degree-seeking international student is paying more than the average American student which, for what it is worth, is good for the basketball team.

In regards to the specific comment about international students, it can be extremely difficult to know from a press release to know how much that particular point matters, so I would not read too much in to it unless I knew more of the situation.

I think that that's a good point. Again, I stress that I'm only going by what I know from my own alma mater's perspective. For North Park, which had had a long-standing tradition of enrolling international students (particularly from Sweden, Norway, and South Korea), it mattered a great deal. In fact, feedback from both international alumni and then-current international students played a pivotal role in driving the name change back in '96.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell