Liberty League

Started by Saint of Old, August 12, 2014, 12:14:06 PM

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Flying Weasel

Quote from: Mr.Right on August 30, 2016, 04:05:43 PM
I have been saying this for years but with a 9 team league now and possibly 10 if they can get Ithaca a 4 team LL playoff is just insane. A team like Bard's season could be over by the beginning of October. It can be terribly deflating. If they can get to a 10 team league then a 8 team play-off would not be unreasonable as Nescac used to do it or give the #1 seed a bye and automatic hosting and play #2 v #7 , #3 v #6 and #4 v #5.

Or already go with a 5-team (with a #4-#5 playing game) or 6-team (with byes for top 2 seeds) playoff.  Given the depth and parity of the league, expanding from four teams to five  or six is reasonable, even at 9 total teams.  I personally tend to prefer the regular season to mean more, so I'm content with a 4-team playoff in all cases and not a big fan of the 7- or 8-team playoff for a 10-team league. 

And here's an interesting thing to think about.  If the LL playoffs had been a 7-team affair last year and #7 seed RPI had lost to #2 Hobart in the quarterfinals, would they have gotten an at-large berth with the additional loss sitting at 12-6-3?  Sitting out the conference playoffs may have been better for RPI than a quarterfinal or even a semifinal loss, who knows.

d3d3d3

I'm pretty sure the proposal before the LL is that next year when Ithaca joins, the men's soccer playoffs will go to a six-team format.

Christan Shirk

Quote from: d3d3d3 on August 30, 2016, 05:16:21 PM
I'm pretty sure the proposal before the LL is that next year when Ithaca joins, the men's soccer playoffs will go to a six-team format.
When the original announcement was made about Ithaca joining the Liberty League it said the move would "occur no later than the 2018-19 academic year".  Has there been any subsequent information about the move happening for next year?  If so, I should include it in the Upcoming Changes section of my What's new for the 2016 season? article.  In fact, regardless, I should probably have included it.  Might still do so.
Christan Shirk
Special Consultant and Advisor
D3soccer.com

PaulNewman

FW, what format one prefers may depend for some on which teams they follow and how competitive that conference is.  In a perennially very strong conference I lean towards preferring more rather than less making conference playoffs, perhaps with regular season champ getting an AQ at least in some conferences, and then another bid to playoff winner.  In the Nescac, for instance, it means a lot to the teams that grab the #7 and #8 seeds with at least a puncher's chance to pull an upset.

Flying Weasel

Quote from: NCAC New England on August 30, 2016, 06:28:13 PM
FW, what format one prefers may depend for some on which teams they follow and how competitive that conference is.  In a perennially very strong conference I lean towards preferring more rather than less making conference playoffs, perhaps with regular season champ getting an AQ at least in some conferences, and then another bid to playoff winner.  In the Nescac, for instance, it means a lot to the teams that grab the #7 and #8 seeds with at least a puncher's chance to pull an upset.

I know why some teams and their fans would want more playoff spots--that's pretty obvious.  I was just giving my unbiased preference as a neutral.

And are you talking about two automatic berths for some conference?  If so, that changes things and I might feel differently about the size of conference tournaments if an AQ was already given to the regular season champ.  But that's not what we currently have.   

Under the current tournament arrangement with one, and only one, automatic berth per conference (whether strong or weak) and thus minimal at-large berths, I'm simply not a fan of #7 or #8 seeds in a conference having the chance to in essence take an at-large berth away from a more deserving team if they pull the upsets to steal the AQ dropping the conference favorite into Pool C and knocking someone off the bubble.

PaulNewman

Quote from: Flying Weasel on August 31, 2016, 12:50:21 AM
Quote from: NCAC New England on August 30, 2016, 06:28:13 PM
FW, what format one prefers may depend for some on which teams they follow and how competitive that conference is.  In a perennially very strong conference I lean towards preferring more rather than less making conference playoffs, perhaps with regular season champ getting an AQ at least in some conferences, and then another bid to playoff winner.  In the Nescac, for instance, it means a lot to the teams that grab the #7 and #8 seeds with at least a puncher's chance to pull an upset.

I know why some teams and their fans would want more playoff spots--that's pretty obvious.  I was just giving my unbiased preference as a neutral.

And are you talking about two automatic berths for some conference?  If so, that changes things and I might feel differently about the size of conference tournaments if an AQ was already given to the regular season champ.  But that's not what we currently have.   

Under the current tournament arrangement with one, and only one, automatic berth per conference (whether strong or weak) and thus minimal at-large berths, I'm simply not a fan of #7 or #8 seeds in a conference having the chance to in essence take an at-large berth away from a more deserving team if they pull the upsets to steal the AQ dropping the conference favorite into Pool C and knocking someone off the bubble.

Yeah, I was thinking of an AQ for regular season champ for some conferences (and so 2 AQs) although I know that's unrealistic given the difficulty of deciding who would get those beyond NESCAC, UAA and NJAC.  I also was thinking about it primarily from a player experience perspective.  Going somewhere for 4 years and never having any shot at all is tough.  I personally like the idea of the 4v5 game for a conference like the NCAC and 6 team playoffs for a few others.

As an aside, I didn't realize you are a neutral?!

Flying Weasel

Except for the Commonwealth, I'm a neutral for the other 40+ men's and women's conferences.

And, yeah, I'm not coming at the conference tournaments from a student-athlete/team perspective.  And I'm seeing it within the context of the NCAA tournament berth system.  If the conference tournaments weren't directly tied into the AQ's, maybe I'd feel differently about them. 

Regardless, my preference doesn't count for anything.  The conference tournaments and AQs belong to the each conference and their members get to decide what they want.

Mr.Right

In the top 4-5 leagues like Nescac, NJAC, etc usually the winner of the league during season play gets a Pool C anyway. I just feel that allowing most, NOT ALL but most teams to participate in their respective conference tournaments give teams that have struggled early, been unlucky, gotten burned by some ref calls, serious injury issues early on, etc allows them to get 1 more chance at getting into the NCAA's. Teams have something to play for all year and makes for better team bonding, practicing harder, playing harder, etc if the team feels they still have a chance at the NCAA's.

SandyMac

Quote from: Mr.Right on August 31, 2016, 05:22:55 PM
In the top 4-5 leagues like Nescac, NJAC, etc usually the winner of the league during season play gets a Pool C anyway. I just feel that allowing most, NOT ALL but most teams to participate in their respective conference tournaments give teams that have struggled early, been unlucky, gotten burned by some ref calls, serious injury issues early on, etc allows them to get 1 more chance at getting into the NCAA's. Teams have something to play for all year and makes for better team bonding, practicing harder, playing harder, etc if the team feels they still have a chance at the NCAA's.

6 team playoff once Ithaca enters is reasonable. With the top 2 seeds getting a bye,I'd think that the 3v6 and 4v5 games would be on a Saturday, with the Semifinals the following Wednesday, and then the final Saturday.  I could see the top seeds complaining about potentially 10 days without a match, but not sure there's much of a way around that (I believe that's how the SUNYAC does it).  At the end of the day, hopefully it allows LL teams to strengthen their out of conference schedules with the knowledge that they'll more than likely have a shot at the league playoff auto-bid.

Still don't think this changes much, as the top teams each year seem to really dominate at home.

Here we go Saints.

Part_Bart

Enjoying this conversation and also excited to see 2016 season start up (with several LL teams playing today)!

Not sure how much a six-team (v. a four-team) playoff structure matters to NCAA selection. 
Bigger factor is strength of schedule.

Clearly Hobart got the message on SOS given their schedule this year: something SLU and RPI have, for years, been doing better than many of the teams in the LL.

Not so sure that Union, Skidmore and Vassar have done enough to make their SOS competitive v. the second or third place SUNYAC teams, or against Rochester or Ithaca (in its last year in Empire 8), come November.  Pretty sure we'll return to this point in late October....

As an aside, had Hobart prevailed against Skidmore in the 2015 playoff game, the SOS calculations would still have had RPI more highly ranked.... Skidmore's team would have been that tiny bit less upset they did not receive an invite, but Hobart's team would have likely been more upset when the invite went to RPI....

This said, I'd like to think that the addition of a 62cd team in NCAA tournament (a 19th pool c team), the LL should be able to count on two teams getting in each year.

Returning to play-off team format, I suspect coaches want the six team format to provide more opportunity, more attention and to get more practice.

Mr.Right

#445
Solid start for a couple possible surprise teams in LL this year.

Union dominated and dismantled Utica, an average to below average Empire 8 team but still a decent side 5-0. Good start for a youNg team on the move. To bad their schedule was not a BIT more challenging out of conference as this side would benefit from it going into league play.

Clarkson a big 2-0 win over Ithaca at home. Did not see the game but stats seemed even and Clarkson grabs a good win. They have a good out of conference schedule so this will only give them confidence.

Anyone catch the SLU 3-1 win over Brockport? Report?  Either way good start for SLU and that win could become helpful down the road.

Waiting on Hobart v Etown but I expect them to get a result even on the road and a draw would be fine as well.

RPI grabs a disappointing draw 1-1 with Sage as it looks like they gave up their 1-0 lead late. I would be willing to bet RPI has more 0 and 1 goal games than anyone in the country the past 5 years, Draws are not the end of the world but gotta re-focus.

RIT grabs a 2-0 win also.

Ommadawn

Quote from: Mr.Right on September 02, 2016, 05:38:55 PM
Anyone catch the SLU 3-1 wi n over Brockport? Report?  Either way good start for SLU and that win could become helpful sown the road.

I saw a bunch of the game online.  Brockport worked hard and could have had another goal, but there was just too much talent on the field for SLU.  SLU is going to win a few games in true blow-out fashion this year, as they had numerous near misses today.

Mr.Right

Quote from: Ommadawn on September 02, 2016, 05:47:55 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 02, 2016, 05:38:55 PM
Anyone catch the SLU 3-1 wi n over Brockport? Report?  Either way good start for SLU and that win could become helpful sown the road.

I saw a bunch of the game online.  Brockport worked hard and could have had another goal, but there was just too much talent on the field for SLU.  SLU is going to win a few games in true blow-out fashion this year, as they had numerous near misses today.


How talented are they this year? Did they look like the NCAA Sweet 16 teams this past decade or maybe the Elite 8 Final 4 teams of the early 2000's?  Or do we not know yet?  What the frosh look like?


If the stream is decent I will watch the Hobart game tonight and am curious to see Messiah open up. will they be vastly improved from 2015? GK situation hopefully improved? etc etc

Ommadawn

Quote from: Mr.Right on September 02, 2016, 06:19:35 PMHow talented are they this year? Did they look like the NCAA Sweet 16 teams this past decade or maybe the Elite 8 Final 4 teams of the early 2000's?  Or do we not know yet?  What the frosh look like?

It's too early to tell.  Smith was solid in goal, and I think it will take time for the Dorney/Brandell center back tandem to gel.  Among first-year players, Sinclair caught my eye.  Augustine looks ready to come into his own.  The pieces seem to be there for the team to make a deep run in the tournament, but there's a lot of chemistry to be built between now and then.

stlawus

#449
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 02, 2016, 06:19:35 PM
Quote from: Ommadawn on September 02, 2016, 05:47:55 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 02, 2016, 05:38:55 PM
Anyone catch the SLU 3-1 wi n over Brockport? Report?  Either way good start for SLU and that win could become helpful sown the road.

I saw a bunch of the game online.  Brockport worked hard and could have had another goal, but there was just too much talent on the field for SLU.  SLU is going to win a few games in true blow-out fashion this year, as they had numerous near misses today.


How talented are they this year? Did they look like the NCAA Sweet 16 teams this past decade or maybe the Elite 8 Final 4 teams of the early 2000's?  Or do we not know yet?  What the frosh look like?


If the stream is decent I will watch the Hobart game tonight and am curious to see Messiah open up. will they be vastly improved from 2015? GK situation hopefully improved? etc etc


Ignore my username bias for a bit here, but this year's SLU team is quite talented.  I'd say it's too early to judge/compare to teams of the past, but there's lots of potential. They are an extremely fast team, fastest that I can remember really.  Copeland was pretty much impossible to replace, but Steve Dorney is anchoring the back line at 6'5".  While not as offensively prolific as Copeland was, he'll be one of the better defenders in the league.   Senior Noah Bunton looks like he as taken the next step in terms of talent and leadership.  He looked like a bona fide #10 on the field today, and dare I say looked similar to Sam Demello.  Extremely technical, pacey and a great goal off a 30 yard shot.   Jethro Dede won LL ROTY last season, and has solidified himself has one of the league's best DMs.  The striker position may be the only spot that's not completely solidified.  Augustine/Kelly are the top strikers right now, but it'll be interesting to see if they take the next step this  year.  Freshman class does not have a lot of immediate impact players, but Jevaughn Sinclair is one of the fastest players I've ever seen wear a SLU kit.  He is a player to keep a close eye on, and may be the next Saint of Old out on the right wing.