MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

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blue_jays

The 3-shot sequence by Francis here shows the absolute confidence he has in his shot: https://youtu.be/GLCXFrIUxIQ?t=126

And two more for good measure: https://youtu.be/GLCXFrIUxIQ?t=206

His offensive hubris makes for a very entertaining watch. Glad I don't have to guard him.

WUPHF

How much does this stat matter in the CCIW historically?

Class
Francis: sophomore
Robinson: junior

bbfan44

Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 15, 2017, 09:44:14 PM
North Park 64
Carroll 53

Juwan Henry only played four minutes. They didn't need him, which was wonderful. I'm sure it was just a morale boost for the Vikes to have him in uniform tonight.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but this 4 minute game along with the next two games means he appears in 75% of the teams games....making him eligible for end of season Conference honors.

Titan Q

Just a quick point I forgot to make last night...

I disagree completely with anyone who says Wheaton played harder than IWU last night or "wanted it more."   I wasn't in the gym but even watching the stream I could tell the Titans played their tails off last night.  They played hard for 40 minutes and badly wanted to win that game.  Wheaton just played better and made more big plays.


bbfan44

Quote from: WUH on February 16, 2017, 10:47:15 AM
How much does this stat matter in the CCIW historically?

Class
Francis: sophomore
Robinson: junior

Kent Raymond won it 3 years in a row.  Steve D won it 2 years in a row.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: lmitzel on February 16, 2017, 09:26:50 AM
Quote from: USee on February 16, 2017, 07:17:58 AM
Francis gets my vote for POY.

For the sake of argument, here are their stats (CCIW only):

PPG
Francis: 25.6 (1st)
Robinson: 21.4 (2nd)

RPG
Francis: 3.2 (well outside the top 20)
Robinson: 8.9 (2nd)

FG%
Francis: .474 (15th)
Robinson: .540 (5th)

Assists
Francis: 3.07 (8th)
Robinson: 4.43 (1st)

FT%
Francis: .839 (8th)
Robinson: .608 (well outside the top 15)

Steals
Francis: 2.14 (1st)
Robinson: 1.00 (T-11th)

3P%
Francis: .426 (6th)
Robinson: .425 (7th)
*Francis has 54 more attempts

A/TO Ratio
Francis: 1.05 (9th)
Robinson: 1.63 (4th)

Nicely done, lmitzel, but you left out one other category:

Blocks
Francis: 0.23 (well outside the top 15)
Robinson: 1.29 (4th)

This is actually one of Robinson's more impressive categories. At 6'3 (an overestimation, believe me), Jordan is the league's smallest big man. And yet he's among the top shot-blockers. In fact, the three players ranked above him are 6'10 Micah Martin, 6'8 Alex Sorenson, and 6'11 Brad Perry. This speaks to Jordan's athleticism, his timing, and his absolute refusal to concede shots. The only other player smaller than 6'5 on this list is Brad Kruse (who is a significantly underrated player in his own right), and Kruse gets a lot of his blocks on the perimeter, mostly against smaller guards. Every Robinson block I've seen this year has come within five feet of the basket.

Quote from: lmitzel on February 16, 2017, 09:26:50 AMIt's closer than I thought before I looked at all the numbers, but I don't see an objective argument based purely on the stats to say Francis deserves it more than Robinson. You could maybe make the argument that Francis is doing more with less, and dragging Wheaton into contention compared to what Robinson has around him to get the Vikings to their first CCIW Tournament (barring a complete collapse on Saturday and Tuesday).

Given the team that NPU's had to put on the floor over the past five games, this is not as clear-cut an argument as it sounds.

Quote from: lmitzel on February 16, 2017, 09:26:50 AMFrancis has the more eye-popping scoring stats, but as stated yesterday, Robinson is the more complete player, and the stats back this up. If Francis is not a unanimous First Team All-CCIW, I'll be shocked, and I'm sure he'll get some MOP votes, but Robinson has been the best player in the conference this year and I'll be shocked if he doesn't win the award.

That's a good summation.

Quote from: WUH on February 16, 2017, 10:47:15 AM
How much does this stat matter in the CCIW historically?

Class
Francis: sophomore
Robinson: junior

Sometimes class status has mattered, sometimes it hasn't. It's really depended upon the mix of head coaches in the league at that particular time.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Gregory Sager

Quote from: bbfan44 on February 16, 2017, 11:53:41 AM
Quote from: WUH on February 16, 2017, 10:47:15 AM
How much does this stat matter in the CCIW historically?

Class
Francis: sophomore
Robinson: junior

Kent Raymond won it 3 years in a row.  Steve D won it 2 years in a row.

Junior CCIW MOPs

Jesse Price  Millikin  1968
John Laing  Augustana  1972
Jack Sikma  Illinois Wesleyan  1976
Michael Harper  North Park  1979
Michael Starks  North Park  1987
Jeff Kuehl  Illinois Wesleyan  1989
Chris Simich  Illinois Wesleyan  1995
Wesley Pitts  Wheaton  1996
Korey Coon*  Illinois Wesleyan  1999
Antoine McDaniel  Carthage  2002
Adam Dauksas  Illinois Wesleyan  2005
Kent Raymond  Wheaton  2008
Steve Djurickovic  Carthage  2010
Hunter Hill*  Augustana  2015

Sophomore CCIW MOPs
Jack Sikma  Illinois Wesleyan  1976
Michael Harper  North Park  1978
Jason Wiertel*  Carthage  2000
Kent Raymond  Wheaton  2007

*Co-MOP
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

GoPerry

Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 16, 2017, 11:56:38 AM
Quote from: lmitzel on February 16, 2017, 09:26:50 AM
Quote from: USee on February 16, 2017, 07:17:58 AM
Francis gets my vote for POY.

For the sake of argument, here are their stats (CCIW only):

PPG
Francis: 25.6 (1st)
Robinson: 21.4 (2nd)

RPG
Francis: 3.2 (well outside the top 20)
Robinson: 8.9 (2nd)

FG%
Francis: .474 (15th)
Robinson: .540 (5th)

Assists
Francis: 3.07 (8th)
Robinson: 4.43 (1st)

FT%
Francis: .839 (8th)
Robinson: .608 (well outside the top 15)

Steals
Francis: 2.14 (1st)
Robinson: 1.00 (T-11th)

3P%
Francis: .426 (6th)
Robinson: .425 (7th)
*Francis has 54 more attempts

A/TO Ratio
Francis: 1.05 (9th)
Robinson: 1.63 (4th)

Nicely done, lmitzel, but you left out one other category:

Blocks
Francis: 0.23 (well outside the top 15)
Robinson: 1.29 (4th)

This is actually one of Robinson's more impressive categories. At 6'3 (an overestimation, believe me), Jordan is the league's smallest big man. And yet he's among the top shot-blockers. In fact, the three players ranked above him are 6'10 Micah Martin, 6'8 Alex Sorenson, and 6'11 Brad Perry. This speaks to Jordan's athleticism, his timing, and his absolute refusal to concede shots. The only other player smaller than 6'5 on this list is Brad Kruse (who is a significantly underrated player in his own right), and Kruse gets a lot of his blocks on the perimeter, mostly against smaller guards. Every Robinson block I've seen this year has come within five feet of the basket.

Quote from: lmitzel on February 16, 2017, 09:26:50 AMIt's closer than I thought before I looked at all the numbers, but I don't see an objective argument based purely on the stats to say Francis deserves it more than Robinson. You could maybe make the argument that Francis is doing more with less, and dragging Wheaton into contention compared to what Robinson has around him to get the Vikings to their first CCIW Tournament (barring a complete collapse on Saturday and Tuesday).

Given the team that NPU's had to put on the floor over the past five games, this is not as clear-cut an argument as it sounds.

Quote from: lmitzel on February 16, 2017, 09:26:50 AMFrancis has the more eye-popping scoring stats, but as stated yesterday, Robinson is the more complete player, and the stats back this up. If Francis is not a unanimous First Team All-CCIW, I'll be shocked, and I'm sure he'll get some MOP votes, but Robinson has been the best player in the conference this year and I'll be shocked if he doesn't win the award.

That's a good summation.

Quote from: WUH on February 16, 2017, 10:47:15 AM
How much does this stat matter in the CCIW historically?

Class
Francis: sophomore
Robinson: junior

Sometimes class status has mattered, sometimes it hasn't. It's really depended upon the mix of head coaches in the league at that particular time.

I agree that Robinson is the front runner still and I think a pretty clear one.  At a minimum, I think the only thing that could possibly change this calculus is if Francis had 2 more fantastic games and Wheaton wins twice to get into the tourney.  But even then, I doubt it would change the POY vote.

At least in recent history, leading the league in scoring has hardly been any solid indicator of POY selection.  IF SIDs were the voters(like POW), then maybe.  But not the coaches.

GoPerry

Quote from: Titan Q on February 16, 2017, 11:00:07 AM
Just a quick point I forgot to make last night...

I disagree completely with anyone who says Wheaton played harder than IWU last night or "wanted it more."   I wasn't in the gym but even watching the stream I could tell the Titans played their tails off last night.  They played hard for 40 minutes and badly wanted to win that game.  Wheaton just played better and made more big plays.

. . . mostly by making their free throws.

I agree entirely Q.  In fact, I was surprised to see the rebounding stat because I never sensed IWU was consistently getting beat to the ball by Wheaton, outhustled, or anything like that.  After all it was a 2 point game with 4 mins left.  At that point I was a little surprised the Titans looked to the 3 so often - they took a bunch of them in those last minutes without necessarily having to - the game was not yet out of hand.  Fortunately(Unfortunately), most of them didn't fall.   

augie77

Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 16, 2017, 12:18:38 PM
Quote from: bbfan44 on February 16, 2017, 11:53:41 AM
Quote from: WUH on February 16, 2017, 10:47:15 AM
How much does this stat matter in the CCIW historically?

Class
Francis: sophomore
Robinson: junior

Kent Raymond won it 3 years in a row.  Steve D won it 2 years in a row.

Junior CCIW MOPs

Jesse Price  Millikin  1968
John Laing  Augustana  1972
Jack Sikma  Illinois Wesleyan  1976
Michael Harper  North Park  1979
Michael Starks  North Park  1987
Jeff Kuehl  Illinois Wesleyan  1989
Chris Simich  Illinois Wesleyan  1995
Wesley Pitts  Wheaton  1996
Korey Coon*  Illinois Wesleyan  1999
Antoine McDaniel  Carthage  2002
Adam Dauksas  Illinois Wesleyan  2005
Kent Raymond  Wheaton  2008
Steve Djurickovic  Carthage  2010
Hunter Hill*  Augustana  2015

Sophomore CCIW MOPs
Jack Sikma  Illinois Wesleyan  1975
Michael Harper  North Park  1978
Jason Wiertel*  Carthage  2000
Kent Raymond  Wheaton  2007

*Co-MOP

Sikma was a sophomore in 1975.  Fixed it for you.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: bbfan44 on February 16, 2017, 10:54:26 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 15, 2017, 09:44:14 PM
North Park 64
Carroll 53

Juwan Henry only played four minutes. They didn't need him, which was wonderful. I'm sure it was just a morale boost for the Vikes to have him in uniform tonight.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but this 4 minute game along with the next two games means he appears in 75% of the teams games....making him eligible for end of season Conference honors.

I'm not sure that that's relevant to All-CCIW voting. Jeff Kuehl of Illinois Wesleyan missed a whole pile of games one year due to a broken arm, and it didn't stop him from making first team. (Nobody argued with that selection, either; he was that dominant of a player.)

Last night's cameo will make Juwan statistically qualify for the overall-stats categories, even if NPU fails to make it to the tourney. I'm not sure that that'll help him in terms of making the All-CCIW team, though ... and it certainly wasn't the reason why he got those four minutes of tick last night at Van Male. As I said, Tom Slyder put Henry in the game as a psychological lift, both for Juwan himself and for the team that has missed him so desperately.

Quote from: GoPerry on February 16, 2017, 12:25:00 PM
At least in recent history, leading the league in scoring has hardly been any solid indicator of POY selection.

It doesn't even guarantee a spot on the All-CCIW first team. Twice since Y2K the CCIW's leading scorer has been relegated to second-team status, as Yulander Wells of North Central (2001) and Kyle Jeffery of Carthage (2006) were each placed on the All-CCIW second team the seasons that they were the league's scoring champions.

I don't think that that'll happen this season, especially with the league moving to the new All-CCIW format of eight players apiece on the first and second teams and no third team. Aston Francis is a shoo-in for first team (he would've been one even under the old format), along with Jordan Robinson, Alex Sorenson, Mike Stevenson, and Brady Rose. Chrishawn Orange has a really good shot at making it, too, especially since I don't see Augie getting left out of the first-teamer category.

Quote from: Titan Q on February 16, 2017, 11:00:07 AM
Just a quick point I forgot to make last night...

I disagree completely with anyone who says Wheaton played harder than IWU last night or "wanted it more."   I wasn't in the gym but even watching the stream I could tell the Titans played their tails off last night.  They played hard for 40 minutes and badly wanted to win that game.  Wheaton just played better and made more big plays.

Thank you for saying that, Bob. That whole "they wanted it more" cliche is utter baloney when you're talking about two teams that are both fighting to keep their postseason hopes alive. One team out-executes the other, one team wins while the other loses ... but saying that one wanted it more than the other not only sticks empty words into a summation of the game, it also cheapens the efforts of both teams.

Quote from: augie77 on February 16, 2017, 12:48:29 PM
Sikma was a sophomore in 1975.  Fixed it for you.

Tack så mycket, Steve. ;)
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

lmitzel

Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 16, 2017, 11:56:38 AM
Quote from: lmitzel on February 16, 2017, 09:26:50 AM
Quote from: USee on February 16, 2017, 07:17:58 AM
Francis gets my vote for POY.

For the sake of argument, here are their stats (CCIW only):

PPG
Francis: 25.6 (1st)
Robinson: 21.4 (2nd)

RPG
Francis: 3.2 (well outside the top 20)
Robinson: 8.9 (2nd)

FG%
Francis: .474 (15th)
Robinson: .540 (5th)

Assists
Francis: 3.07 (8th)
Robinson: 4.43 (1st)

FT%
Francis: .839 (8th)
Robinson: .608 (well outside the top 15)

Steals
Francis: 2.14 (1st)
Robinson: 1.00 (T-11th)

3P%
Francis: .426 (6th)
Robinson: .425 (7th)
*Francis has 54 more attempts

A/TO Ratio
Francis: 1.05 (9th)
Robinson: 1.63 (4th)

Nicely done, lmitzel, but you left out one other category:

Blocks
Francis: 0.23 (well outside the top 15)
Robinson: 1.29 (4th)

This is actually one of Robinson's more impressive categories. At 6'3 (an overestimation, believe me), Jordan is the league's smallest big man. And yet he's among the top shot-blockers. In fact, the three players ranked above him are 6'10 Micah Martin, 6'8 Alex Sorenson, and 6'11 Brad Perry. This speaks to Jordan's athleticism, his timing, and his absolute refusal to concede shots. The only other player smaller than 6'5 on this list is Brad Kruse (who is a significantly underrated player in his own right), and Kruse gets a lot of his blocks on the perimeter, mostly against smaller guards. Every Robinson block I've seen this year has come within five feet of the basket.

I skipped over blocks because I figured the positional comparisons would have made it obvious that Robinson had a lead, but I'm glad you included those, because it just makes the case for Robinson all the more strong. Both have a pretty good impact at the defensive end, though Robinson's is probably stronger given his shot blocking strength relative to his size, and Robinson's offensive game is more well-rounded than Francis'.

Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 16, 2017, 11:56:38 AM
Quote from: lmitzel on February 16, 2017, 09:26:50 AMIt's closer than I thought before I looked at all the numbers, but I don't see an objective argument based purely on the stats to say Francis deserves it more than Robinson. You could maybe make the argument that Francis is doing more with less, and dragging Wheaton into contention compared to what Robinson has around him to get the Vikings to their first CCIW Tournament (barring a complete collapse on Saturday and Tuesday).

Given the team that NPU's had to put on the floor over the past five games, this is not as clear-cut an argument as it sounds.

This is actually a pretty good point that I didn't expand on, because I figured a full season of Francis all but carrying the Thunder to where they're at didn't quite weigh the same as Juwan Henry missing a handful of games, but it's definitely a factor when you consider the Vikings are 1-3 in games Henry hasn't played (though in fairness, that may hamper the argument a little bit, but not enough to swing the award).
Official D-III Championship BeltTM Cartographer
2022 CCIW Football Pick 'Em Co-Champion
#THREEEEEEEEE

Gregory Sager

Quote from: lmitzel on February 16, 2017, 12:58:23 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 16, 2017, 11:56:38 AM
Quote from: lmitzel on February 16, 2017, 09:26:50 AMIt's closer than I thought before I looked at all the numbers, but I don't see an objective argument based purely on the stats to say Francis deserves it more than Robinson. You could maybe make the argument that Francis is doing more with less, and dragging Wheaton into contention compared to what Robinson has around him to get the Vikings to their first CCIW Tournament (barring a complete collapse on Saturday and Tuesday).

Given the team that NPU's had to put on the floor over the past five games, this is not as clear-cut an argument as it sounds.

This is actually a pretty good point that I didn't expand on, because I figured a full season of Francis all but carrying the Thunder to where they're at didn't quite weigh the same as Juwan Henry missing a handful of games, but it's definitely a factor when you consider the Vikings are 1-3 in games Henry hasn't played (though in fairness, that may hamper the argument a little bit, but not enough to swing the award).

Realistically, though, it's more like 2-3. Juwan only played four minutes last night and took a grand total of one shot (which he missed). Given that his only practice since his injury was on Tuesday, there was never really a chance that he was going to play any role in last night's game other than a brief opening cameo for psychological purposes. As I said, Jordan Robinson didn't have an impressive statistical game by his standards, but all of that double-teaming of Robinson by the Pios obviously opened up the floor for Colin Lake and T.J. Cobbs, who netted 19 points apiece in a low-scoring, deliberately-paced game.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Mr. Ypsi

Quote from: Gregory Sager on February 16, 2017, 12:18:38 PM
Quote from: bbfan44 on February 16, 2017, 11:53:41 AM
Quote from: WUH on February 16, 2017, 10:47:15 AM
How much does this stat matter in the CCIW historically?

Class
Francis: sophomore
Robinson: junior

Kent Raymond won it 3 years in a row.  Steve D won it 2 years in a row.

Junior CCIW MOPs

Jesse Price  Millikin  1968
John Laing  Augustana  1972
Jack Sikma  Illinois Wesleyan  1976
Michael Harper  North Park  1979
Michael Starks  North Park  1987
Jeff Kuehl  Illinois Wesleyan  1989
Chris Simich  Illinois Wesleyan  1995
Wesley Pitts  Wheaton  1996
Korey Coon*  Illinois Wesleyan  1999
Antoine McDaniel  Carthage  2002
Adam Dauksas  Illinois Wesleyan  2005
Kent Raymond  Wheaton  2008
Steve Djurickovic  Carthage  2010
Hunter Hill*  Augustana  2015

Sophomore CCIW MOPs
Jack Sikma  Illinois Wesleyan  1976
Michael Harper  North Park  1978
Jason Wiertel*  Carthage  2000
Kent Raymond  Wheaton  2007

*Co-MOP

For sophomores, add Keelan Amelianovich, IWU, 2004

Gregory Sager

Thanks, Chuck. I noted Keelan Amelianovich when I first looked at the list, and somehow overlooked him when it came time to type him in.

Here's the corrected list of non-senior MOPs:

Junior CCIW MOPs

Jesse Price  Millikin  1968
John Laing  Augustana  1972
Jack Sikma  Illinois Wesleyan  1976
Michael Harper  North Park  1979
Michael Starks  North Park  1987
Jeff Kuehl  Illinois Wesleyan  1989
Chris Simich  Illinois Wesleyan  1995
Wesley Pitts  Wheaton  1996
Korey Coon*  Illinois Wesleyan  1999
Antoine McDaniel  Carthage  2002
Adam Dauksas  Illinois Wesleyan  2005
Kent Raymond  Wheaton  2008
Steve Djurickovic  Carthage  2010
Hunter Hill*  Augustana  2015

Sophomore CCIW MOPs
Jack Sikma  Illinois Wesleyan  1975
Michael Harper  North Park  1978
Jason Wiertel*  Carthage  2000
Keelan Amelianovich  Illinois Wesleyan  2004
Kent Raymond  Wheaton  2007

*Co-MOP
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell