FB: American Rivers Conference

Started by admin, August 16, 2005, 05:19:42 AM

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5 Words or Less

Doolittledog summarized it pretty well ...

Quote from: doolittledog on May 24, 2019, 08:54:04 AM
I think the WIAC needs St Thomas more than the ARC would like St Thomas.
Basketball wise St Thomas would be a great addition to the ARC, and would add to an already strong lineup of schools. They are on a river 😅 That could be a fun road trip for everyone. Likewise in other sports they would be at or near the top in all of them and I think the trip to the cities would be enjoyable.
But this is really about football. The WIAC schools struggle to fill 3 non-con games each year. If they bring in St Thomas that schedule making becomes much easier. The WIAC schools open a new recruiting area. The travel isn't outrageous. And competitively they wouldn't be overwhelmed by St Thomas.

doolittledog

If St Thomas went to the WIAC, I could see them staying there long term. If St Thomas moved to the ARC I believe it would only be a rest stop until they moved on to D2.
Coach Finstock - "There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that and everything else is cream cheese."

hazzben

I think any d3 option is a rest stop at this point. Even the NSIC.

AndOne

Quote from: 5 Words or Less on May 31, 2019, 01:37:08 PM
Doolittledog summarized it pretty well ...

Quote from: doolittledog on May 24, 2019, 08:54:04 AM
I think the WIAC needs St Thomas more than the ARC would like St Thomas.
Basketball wise St Thomas would be a great addition to the ARC, and would add to an already strong lineup of schools. They are on a river 😅 That could be a fun road trip for everyone. Likewise in other sports they would be at or near the top in all of them and I think the trip to the cities would be enjoyable.
But this is really about football. The WIAC schools struggle to fill 3 non-con games each year. If they bring in St Thomas that schedule making becomes much easier. The WIAC schools open a new recruiting area. The travel isn't outrageous. And competitively they wouldn't be overwhelmed by St Thomas.

With regard to the possibility of UST going to the WIAC, the advantages or disadvantages of scheduling and travel aside, keep in mind the vast financial/cost differences between UST and the Wisconsin state schools. Tuition and room & board at private UST is about $51,200 a year. At, for example, LaCrosse, it's about $15,800 for residents. And because of the reciprocity agreement between the states, Minnesota residents can attend a Wisconsin State for the same amount Wis residents pay.
Doesn't seem like a very advantageous position for UST from a financial standpoint. Doubtful many Wis kids would say "now that UST is in our conference I'll pay $51,200 to go there as opposed to staying in state and paying $15,800". No financial package from UST is going to come anywhere near closing that huge of a gap.
While they might not cost as much as UST, the ARC schools would at least be closer from the point of family finances. But remember the scheduling/travel issues.
It just doesn't appear that UST is in a good position with either the WIAC or ARC option. Plus, as other have said, any D3 might only be a pit stop. Can you say D2?  ;)

5 Words or Less

U$T's aid regularly beats DII's

5 Words or Less

#42725
UST outspends Wartburg & UWW

Quote from: Equity in Athletics Data Analysis
EADA website https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/

    Enrollment
    • UST = 5,938
    • Wartburg = 1,472
    • UWW = 9,745

    Football Expenses

    • UST = $1,166,725
    • Wartburg = $403,857
    • UWW = $390,681
    Total Expenses of all Mens Sports, Except Football and Basketball, Combined         

    • UST = $1,042,725 (8 sports not including FB or BB)
    • Wartburg = $829,481 (9)
    • UWW = $778,587 (7)
    Total Expenses of all Women Sports, Except Football and Basketball, Combined   

    • UST = $1,058,583   (9 sports, not including FB or BB)
    • Wartburg = $631,733 (11)
    • UWW = $1,031,005 (10)

    Total Expenses of ALL Sports Teams   

    • UST = $3,660,800   (20 total sports)
    • Wartburg = $2,198,110 (23)
    • UWW = $2,564,362 (20)

5 Words or Less

D3 Athletic Expenses & Inflation

https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/2015%20Division%20III%20RE%20report.pdf

Quote from: NCAA
NCA Website link: https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/2015%20Division%20III%20RE%20report.pdf

Median total [for DIII colleges & universities with football programs] expense has increased from $1,548,000 in 2004 to $3,382,100 in 2014, an increase of almost 118.0%.  The resulting median expense per student-athlete has risen steadily from $3,500 in 2004 to $6,300 in 2014, an 80% increase. A portion of the total increase in expenses is due to inflation.

    Dashboard Summary
    • The percentage of student-athletes in the student body has remained similar to previous years at 25% for football schools and 14% without football.
    • Athletics expenditures as a percentage of the total institutional budget stayed flat at 5% at football schools, and stayed at 3% among schools without football.
    • The difference in growth rates for athletics expenditures and total institutional budget is minimal - two percentage points for the football subgroup and three percentage points for schools without football.
Quote from: US Inflation Calculator
Website: https://www.usinflationcalculator.com

US cumulative inflation 2004 to 2014 = 25.3%
Quote from: Official Data Foundation
Website:  http://www.in2013dollars.com/College-tuition-and-fees/price-inflation/2004-to-2014?amount=20000

College tuition priced at $20,000 in 2004 = $34,357.31 in 2014 [72% increase]

AndOne

Quote from: 5 Words or Less on June 02, 2019, 07:32:17 PM
U$T's aid regularly beats DII's

Is that a blanket statement, 5 Words? Does it beat all D2s, most, several, or a few?
And to know the net effect, you would need to know the individual D2's tuition, room & board as the aid might be more, but not enough to offset the D2's lower tuition, room, and board.
If UST's net is usually lower, then maybe D2 is the direction they should go as they would often have a financial advantage. Plus, they're not likely to be booted out of a D2 conference.

Fannosaurus Rex

I enjoyed being able to say, "Hey!  I've been there," while watching the Gillibrand Townhall from the U of Dubuque.
"It ain't what ya do, it's the way how ya do it.  It ain't what ya eat, it's the way how ya chew it."  Little Richard

Pat Coleman

Quote from: 5 Words or Less on June 02, 2019, 09:00:02 PM
UST outspends Wartburg & UWW

Quote from: Equity in Athletics Data Analysis
EADA website https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/

    Enrollment
    • UST = 5,938
    • Wartburg = 1,472
    • UWW = 9,745

    Football Expenses

    • UST = $1,166,725
    • Wartburg = $403,857
    • UWW = $390,681
    Total Expenses of all Mens Sports, Except Football and Basketball, Combined         

    • UST = $1,042,725 (8 sports not including FB or BB)
    • Wartburg = $829,481 (9)
    • UWW = $778,587 (7)
    Total Expenses of all Women Sports, Except Football and Basketball, Combined   

    • UST = $1,058,583   (9 sports, not including FB or BB)
    • Wartburg = $631,733 (11)
    • UWW = $1,031,005 (10)

    Total Expenses of ALL Sports Teams   

    • UST = $3,660,800   (20 total sports)
    • Wartburg = $2,198,110 (23)
    • UWW = $2,564,362 (20)

Which year? Looking like a year in which UWW did not make the playoffs and St. Thomas did. Makes a difference. [/list]
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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

5 Words or Less

UFF-DA!!  I'm being tag teamed

5 Words or Less

Quote from: AndOne on June 02, 2019, 10:34:50 PM
Quote from: 5 Words or Less on June 02, 2019, 07:32:17 PM
U$T's aid regularly occasionally beats DII's

Is that a blanket statement, 5 Words? Does it beat all D2s, most, several, or a few?
And to know the net effect, you would need to know the individual D2's tuition, room & board as the aid might be more, but not enough to offset the D2's lower tuition, room, and board.
If UST's net is usually lower, then maybe D2 is the direction they should go as they would often have a financial advantage. Plus, they're not likely to be booted out of a D2 conference.

Fixed it, based on this ...

Quote from: Institute for College Access & Success
Website link: https://ticas.org/posd/map-state-data#

Average debt of 2017 graduates

  • UST = $40,983
  • MN DII's = $26,696 - $33,813
  • ARC = $30,353 - $38,155
  • WIAC = $24,948 - $30,409

5 Words or Less

Quote from: Pat Coleman on June 02, 2019, 11:07:52 PM
Quote from: 5 Words or Less on June 02, 2019, 09:00:02 PM
UST outspends Wartburg & UWW

Quote from: Equity in Athletics Data Analysis
EADA website https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/

    Enrollment
    • UST = 5,938
    • Wartburg = 1,472
    • UWW = 9,745

    Football Expenses

    • UST = $1,166,725
    • Wartburg = $403,857
    • UWW = $390,681
    Total Expenses of all Mens Sports, Except Football and Basketball, Combined         

    • UST = $1,042,725 (8 sports not including FB or BB)
    • Wartburg = $829,481 (9)
    • UWW = $778,587 (7)
    Total Expenses of all Women Sports, Except Football and Basketball, Combined   

    • UST = $1,058,583   (9 sports, not including FB or BB)
    • Wartburg = $631,733 (11)
    • UWW = $1,031,005 (10)

    Total Expenses of ALL Sports Teams   

    • UST = $3,660,800   (20 total sports)
    • Wartburg = $2,198,110 (23)
    • UWW = $2,564,362 (20)

Which year? Looking like a year in which UWW did not make the playoffs and St. Thomas did. Makes a difference. [/list]

Data above is from 2017

Old Dutch

Quote from: doolittledog on May 21, 2019, 11:21:30 AM
For Upper Iowa it was a case of differentiating themselves from other schools. They are now the only D2 school in Iowa. They get recruits now they never able to get before. They have also found fundraising levels have increased. Being the only D2 school in Iowa has given them advantages they never would have had in D3 or NAIA.

I was kind of dumbfounded when UIU turned to D2, but it has turned out to be a good move, as Doolittle says.  Reality of 21st Century college costs may bite them in the backside sooner or later.  Yes they have been able to compete with NSIC (5 of their  8 losses in 2018 were by a touchdown or less)  but there are still far more powerful teams that look like they are going to stay atop the league for a long time.  UIU?  Not sure what kind of  endowment UIU has, but I've heard enrollment in Fayette is down and they are relying on athletics to survive outside the online progaming.  Competition in that field is growing.  As much as I hate to say this, a thinning of Iowa private colleges is inevitable and the physical campus of UIU may become a victim. 

As for UST, MIAC was stupid,, NSIC may very well make a spot for a new D2 school.  Luther, NWU, and DBQ are the biggest schools in the ARC at a mere 2300.  UST closer to 10,000  sounds like the WIAC is a better fit.
61 consecutive seasons without a losing season
IIAC/ARC champs 39, 45, 46, 56, 64, 65, 66, 67, 74, 77, 78, 81, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 89, 90, 92, 94, 95, 98, 00, 01, 02, 05, 06, 07, 09, 19, 21
NCAA Playoffs 74, 77, 78, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 92, 94, 95, 98, 99, 00, 01, 02, 05, 06, 07, 09, 19, 21
Stagg Bowls 74, 84, 89
National Champs 1974

AndOne

Quote from: Old Dutch on June 02, 2019, 11:55:46 PM
Quote from: doolittledog on May 21, 2019, 11:21:30 AM
For Upper Iowa it was a case of differentiating themselves from other schools. They are now the only D2 school in Iowa. They get recruits now they never able to get before. They have also found fundraising levels have increased. Being the only D2 school in Iowa has given them advantages they never would have had in D3 or NAIA.

I was kind of dumbfounded when UIU turned to D2, but it has turned out to be a good move, as Doolittle says.  Reality of 21st Century college costs may bite them in the backside sooner or later.  Yes they have been able to compete with NSIC (5 of their  8 losses in 2018 were by a touchdown or less)  but there are still far more powerful teams that look like they are going to stay atop the league for a long time.  UIU?  Not sure what kind of  endowment UIU has, but I've heard enrollment in Fayette is down and they are relying on athletics to survive outside the online progaming.  Competition in that field is growing.  As much as I hate to say this, a thinning of Iowa private colleges is inevitable and the physical campus of UIU may become a victim. 

As for UST, MIAC was stupid,, NSIC may very well make a spot for a new D2 school.  Luther, NWU, and DBQ are the biggest schools in the ARC at a mere 2300.  UST closer to 10,00. sounds like the WIAC is a better fit.

Quote from: AndOne on June 02, 2019, 05:23:31 PM
Quote from: 5 Words or Less on May 31, 2019, 01:37:08 PM
Doolittledog summarized it pretty well ...

Quote from: doolittledog on May 24, 2019, 08:54:04 AM
I think the WIAC needs St Thomas more than the ARC would like St Thomas.
Basketball wise St Thomas would be a great addition to the ARC, and would add to an already strong lineup of schools. They are on a river 😅 That could be a fun road trip for everyone. Likewise in other sports they would be at or near the top in all of them and I think the trip to the cities would be enjoyable.
But this is really about football. The WIAC schools struggle to fill 3 non-con games each year. If they bring in St Thomas that schedule making becomes much easier. The WIAC schools open a new recruiting area. The travel isn't outrageous. And competitively they wouldn't be overwhelmed by St Thomas.

With regard to the possibility of UST going to the WIAC, the advantages or disadvantages of scheduling and travel aside, keep in mind the vast financial/cost differences between UST and the Wisconsin state schools. Tuition and room & board at private UST is about $51,200 a year. At, for example, LaCrosse, it's about $15,800 for residents. And because of the reciprocity agreement between the states, Minnesota residents can attend a Wisconsin State for the same amount Wis residents pay.
Doesn't seem like a very advantageous position for UST from a financial standpoint. Doubtful many Wis kids would say "now that UST is in our conference I'll pay $51,200 to go there as opposed to staying in state and paying $15,800". No financial package from UST is going to come anywhere near closing that huge of a gap.
While they might not cost as much as UST, the ARC schools would at least be closer from the point of family finances. But remember the scheduling/travel issues.
It just doesn't appear that UST is in a good position with either the WIAC or ARC option. Plus, as other have said, any D3 might only be a pit stop. Can you say D2?  ;)

When solely considering enrollment figures and comparable size, on the surface, it would seem to make sense for UST to look toward the WIAC. However, as I indicated above, it would seem like they would be committing financial suicide in trying to go up against WIAC institutions. How many kids are going to choose UST at $51,200 vs a WIAC school at around $15,800? A single private going against an entire conference of state schools from a cost standpoint isn't going to result in a very good looking winning percentage no matter how good of a financial package the private might be able to offer.

Not the exact same circumstances, but Nebraska Wesleyan faced this situation in the GPAC. They were the only (NCAA) school in an NAIA conference where all the other conference schools could offer athletic scholarships. This made it pretty tough to compete financially. Same principle as high cost UST trying to compete financially against low cost WIAC state schools.