FB: Liberty League

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Oline89



No, I disagree and say more like WIAC, MIAC, MHB, and UMU. I would add mayble Wesley, NCC, and Linfield as outliers over the last 10-15 years that challenge here and there, but fell to a purple power. Regarding "ETZ" team, it's so diluted in the "ETZ" that one conference could have a good 2-3 year run, but I would have to side with the E 8, although that hard to gauge now with the LL and E8 playing hop scotch.
[/quote]

So we could then debate what make a "power conference".   I would argue a conference where the winner perennially advances in the playoffs, plus has at least 2 other teams who can compete outside of the conference and theoretically win at least first round of the playoff.  With the automatic bid system in place I don't think you can say it is necessary for two teams to make the playoffs to qualify as a power conference, and the reciprocal does not apply.  Just because a certain year, 2 teams make the playoffs from a certain conference does not create a power conference (see CC this year).  I would agree that MIAC and WIAC are the only 2 "power conferences".  Very poor showing in the playoffs by JCU knocks the OAC out.   MU and UMHB remain untouchable islands until someone knocks them off.   

wesleydad

I am not sure there is any power conference.  The MIAC seems to be strong, but only 3 teams, St. Johns, St. Thomas, and Bethel, strong.  The WIAC seems strong, but only 2 teams, UWW and Oshkosh, strong.  After that there are top tier teams only.  The second team that gets in occasionally makes noise, winning 2 games in the playoffs, but seldom further than that.  Linfield, NCC, and Wesley have been on the edge of getting there, but have not been able to get past the top of the MIAC, WIAC, Mount, or UMHB.  I know that some believe the second place team in their league could beat many of the teams in the playoffs, but what does the mean.  That puts them at the same level as Linfield, Wesley, and NCC, so what, still not good enough to break into the top tier and we knew that when they didn't win their conference.  Just because 2 teams get in does not make a conference a power conference, someone has to get the Pool C bids and the come from the second place teams of the perceived power conferences, so does that mean that the CC and SAA are now power conferences?  I think not, they just happened to have to really good teams this year, but in the end neither could break through the top tier teams.  It is the way it is and does not look like it is going to change anytime soon.  Mount keeps keeping on, not sure how, and UMHB looks to be hard to deal with at this point unless you are one of the other top tier teams.  I got to watch Wesley compete near that level from 2005 through last year, and they never broke through.  I am not sure they will anytime soon based on this year's performance.

unionpalooza

UMHB's 4Q playcalling is completely baffling...

Caz Bombers

apropos of nothing, I flipped to the FCS semifinal after the Stagg ended, that's a very very very good South Dakota State team that North Dakota State is absolutely tearing to shreds.

It's a lot like our situation, the elite are so far beyond what we're doing that it's barely even the same sport.

DFWCrufan

Quote from: Oline89 on December 12, 2018, 10:03:38 AM


No, I disagree and say more like WIAC, MIAC, MHB, and UMU. I would add mayble Wesley, NCC, and Linfield as outliers over the last 10-15 years that challenge here and there, but fell to a purple power. Regarding "ETZ" team, it's so diluted in the "ETZ" that one conference could have a good 2-3 year run, but I would have to side with the E 8, although that hard to gauge now with the LL and E8 playing hop scotch.

So we could then debate what make a "power conference".   I would argue a conference where the winner perennially advances in the playoffs, plus has at least 2 other teams who can compete outside of the conference and theoretically win at least first round of the playoff.  With the automatic bid system in place I don't think you can say it is necessary for two teams to make the playoffs to qualify as a power conference, and the reciprocal does not apply.  Just because a certain year, 2 teams make the playoffs from a certain conference does not create a power conference (see CC this year).  I would agree that MIAC and WIAC are the only 2 "power conferences".  Very poor showing in the playoffs by JCU knocks the OAC out.   MU and UMHB remain untouchable islands until someone knocks them off.
[/quote]
Good point Oline but I would extend a nod to HSU and the ASC and here is why. They are consistently raked in the top ten for at least 7 years straight, they then have the very nasty task of facing the Cru or Linfield first round and that is a constant so I would take that into consideration and HSU has knocked UMHB over the head in a conference game and beating us at their home, of course we went in Pool C that season and faced the Cowboys again and took it to them. And even this season they are the only 9-2 Team and still ranked #6 over teams that went deeper into the tournament. So I would agree MIAC and WIAC are indeed football dynamos I would propose ASC be in that club as well, maybe not a s deep as a WIAC but still a powerhouse.
Coach Pete had a great interview and they asked "What has been the plan to get where we are today" His first goal was, De-seat constantly HSU, Then Linfield, and then UMU. I would say if that is a goal of your program, it means that program is a hurdle and not a speedbump.
9 Year Member of the CRU-Nation! UMHB National Champions 2016 and 2018

Ralph Turner

Because of the geographic isolation, it is hard to find teams that want to fly to play a pre-conference game in Texas during the first 2 weekends in September.

UMHB went to Albright to get a game.  HSU was able to play Trinity TX as its season opener in Week #2. Trinity which knocked off #17 Berry would not play them in week #1. Trinity warmed up in week #1 against McMurry.

Southwestern finished 5-4 in conference but beat the NCAC Tri-Champ Denison  42-21 to open the season.  (NCAC Tri-champions were also #25 Wabash and RV26 Wittenburg.)

Jonny Utah

Quote from: DFWCrufan on December 16, 2018, 01:55:48 PM
Quote from: Oline89 on December 12, 2018, 10:03:38 AM


No, I disagree and say more like WIAC, MIAC, MHB, and UMU. I would add mayble Wesley, NCC, and Linfield as outliers over the last 10-15 years that challenge here and there, but fell to a purple power. Regarding "ETZ" team, it's so diluted in the "ETZ" that one conference could have a good 2-3 year run, but I would have to side with the E 8, although that hard to gauge now with the LL and E8 playing hop scotch.

So we could then debate what make a "power conference".   I would argue a conference where the winner perennially advances in the playoffs, plus has at least 2 other teams who can compete outside of the conference and theoretically win at least first round of the playoff.  With the automatic bid system in place I don't think you can say it is necessary for two teams to make the playoffs to qualify as a power conference, and the reciprocal does not apply.  Just because a certain year, 2 teams make the playoffs from a certain conference does not create a power conference (see CC this year).  I would agree that MIAC and WIAC are the only 2 "power conferences".  Very poor showing in the playoffs by JCU knocks the OAC out.   MU and UMHB remain untouchable islands until someone knocks them off.
Good point Oline but I would extend a nod to HSU and the ASC and here is why. They are consistently raked in the top ten for at least 7 years straight, they then have the very nasty task of facing the Cru or Linfield first round and that is a constant so I would take that into consideration and HSU has knocked UMHB over the head in a conference game and beating us at their home, of course we went in Pool C that season and faced the Cowboys again and took it to them. And even this season they are the only 9-2 Team and still ranked #6 over teams that went deeper into the tournament. So I would agree MIAC and WIAC are indeed football dynamos I would propose ASC be in that club as well, maybe not a s deep as a WIAC but still a powerhouse.
Coach Pete had a great interview and they asked "What has been the plan to get where we are today" His first goal was, De-seat constantly HSU, Then Linfield, and then UMU. I would say if that is a goal of your program, it means that program is a hurdle and not a speedbump.
[/quote]

When I think of D1 power conferences, I would add that the bottom teams need to be figured into the mix as well.  Can the 2nd or 3rd worst team in a conference beat the 1st place team in another conference?  In D1 that is kind of what makes a "power 5" conference or not in my opinion. 

Oline89

Quote from: DFWCrufan on December 16, 2018, 01:55:48 PM
Quote from: Oline89 on December 12, 2018, 10:03:38 AM


No, I disagree and say more like WIAC, MIAC, MHB, and UMU. I would add mayble Wesley, NCC, and Linfield as outliers over the last 10-15 years that challenge here and there, but fell to a purple power. Regarding "ETZ" team, it's so diluted in the "ETZ" that one conference could have a good 2-3 year run, but I would have to side with the E 8, although that hard to gauge now with the LL and E8 playing hop scotch.

So we could then debate what make a "power conference".   I would argue a conference where the winner perennially advances in the playoffs, plus has at least 2 other teams who can compete outside of the conference and theoretically win at least first round of the playoff.  With the automatic bid system in place I don't think you can say it is necessary for two teams to make the playoffs to qualify as a power conference, and the reciprocal does not apply.  Just because a certain year, 2 teams make the playoffs from a certain conference does not create a power conference (see CC this year).  I would agree that MIAC and WIAC are the only 2 "power conferences".  Very poor showing in the playoffs by JCU knocks the OAC out.   MU and UMHB remain untouchable islands until someone knocks them off.
Good point Oline but I would extend a nod to HSU and the ASC and here is why. They are consistently raked in the top ten for at least 7 years straight, they then have the very nasty task of facing the Cru or Linfield first round and that is a constant so I would take that into consideration and HSU has knocked UMHB over the head in a conference game and beating us at their home, of course we went in Pool C that season and faced the Cowboys again and took it to them. And even this season they are the only 9-2 Team and still ranked #6 over teams that went deeper into the tournament. So I would agree MIAC and WIAC are indeed football dynamos I would propose ASC be in that club as well, maybe not a s deep as a WIAC but still a powerhouse.
Coach Pete had a great interview and they asked "What has been the plan to get where we are today" His first goal was, De-seat constantly HSU, Then Linfield, and then UMU. I would say if that is a goal of your program, it means that program is a hurdle and not a speedbump.
[/quote]

DFW,
Congrats to the Cru on a fantastic win this weekend, other than a very sketchy last series on offense, UMHB was the best team all day.  It was great for an East Coast guy to finally see the Cru in person, the team plays at a phenomenal level.  Regarding the placement of HSU as a #6 team in the country, I remain very skeptical.  As an innocent bystander, how can you claim that a team is the 6th best in the country with two losses, and no wins against a ranked team.  Compare that to Brockport, for instance, undefeated all season (and beat a couple of teams who dabbled in the top 25), then lost in second round of the playoffs, they are justifiably #13.  It is bad luck that the only playoff game for HSU was to the eventual National Champ, but it is still a loss in the first round of the playoffs.  If the top 25 is a poll of the results of 2018, then HSU belongs there, just IMO, not in the top 10. 

Pat Coleman

It's a poll of the quality of teams in 2018, based on their results. If we wanted just a list of results, let's throw all the teams in a spreadsheet and sort by winning percentage, high to low.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Oline89

Quote from: Pat Coleman on December 17, 2018, 11:11:46 AM
It's a poll of the quality of teams in 2018, based on their results. If we wanted just a list of results, let's throw all the teams in a spreadsheet and sort by winning percentage, high to low.

Not really what I was referring to either.  Obviously with 250+ teams, there can't be head to head results to determine ranking.  Next best thing is common opponents.  Next would be record against ranked teams.  Last would be subjective data, the team has been good, they "look" like they would beat another team, etc.   Anyway, all of my rambling is opinion anyway...on to 2019

Bartman

Well, it is the time of year when football falls below basketball in the boards. It is also the time of year when the aftermath of another Mount Union v. Mary Hardin Baylor championship encourages the last and fading sounds of debate and opinion. As per my previous post, UMHB would win by 2 touchdowns(close) and it would be more if UMHB had a better game coach because their athletes are head and shoulders above the rest of D3. I am with Oline on power conferences , not enough concentration of great teams in one conference, although the WIAC, MIAC and ASC are all pretty deep. The OAC after Mount is no better than the E8 or the LL . The LL should be strong next year and I am looking forward to the competition for the LL tiitle(Statesmen on top, of course) and having the winner progress as far as RPI did this year. So until 2019,  do a few wind sprints and hit Santa's sled to keep in shape! 
"I never graduated from Iowa, but I was only there for two terms - Truman's and Eisenhower's."
Alex Karras
"When it's third and ten, you can take the milk drinkers and I'll take the whiskey drinkers every time."
Max McGee
"I love football. I really love football, As far as I'm concerned, it's the second best thing in the world".
Joe Namath

Ralph Turner

Catching up on my reading...

Quote from: Jonny Utah on December 17, 2018, 08:18:20 AM
Quote from: DFWCrufan on December 16, 2018, 01:55:48 PM
Quote from: Oline89 on December 12, 2018, 10:03:38 AM


No, I disagree and say more like WIAC, MIAC, MHB, and UMU. I would add mayble Wesley, NCC, and Linfield as outliers over the last 10-15 years that challenge here and there, but fell to a purple power. Regarding "ETZ" team, it's so diluted in the "ETZ" that one conference could have a good 2-3 year run, but I would have to side with the E 8, although that hard to gauge now with the LL and E8 playing hop scotch.

So we could then debate what make a "power conference".   I would argue a conference where the winner perennially advances in the playoffs, plus has at least 2 other teams who can compete outside of the conference and theoretically win at least first round of the playoff.  With the automatic bid system in place I don't think you can say it is necessary for two teams to make the playoffs to qualify as a power conference, and the reciprocal does not apply.  Just because a certain year, 2 teams make the playoffs from a certain conference does not create a power conference (see CC this year).  I would agree that MIAC and WIAC are the only 2 "power conferences".  Very poor showing in the playoffs by JCU knocks the OAC out.   MU and UMHB remain untouchable islands until someone knocks them off.
Good point Oline but I would extend a nod to HSU and the ASC and here is why. They are consistently raked in the top ten for at least 7 years straight, they then have the very nasty task of facing the Cru or Linfield first round and that is a constant so I would take that into consideration and HSU has knocked UMHB over the head in a conference game and beating us at their home, of course we went in Pool C that season and faced the Cowboys again and took it to them. And even this season they are the only 9-2 Team and still ranked #6 over teams that went deeper into the tournament. So I would agree MIAC and WIAC are indeed football dynamos I would propose ASC be in that club as well, maybe not a s deep as a WIAC but still a powerhouse.
Coach Pete had a great interview and they asked "What has been the plan to get where we are today" His first goal was, De-seat constantly HSU, Then Linfield, and then UMU. I would say if that is a goal of your program, it means that program is a hurdle and not a speedbump.

When I think of D1 power conferences, I would add that the bottom teams need to be figured into the mix as well.  Can the 2nd or 3rd worst team in a conference beat the 1st place team in another conference?  In D1 that is kind of what makes a "power 5" conference or not in my opinion.
[/quote]
Southwestern finished 5-4 in ASC play and beat NCAC Tri-champion and its Pool A Denison 42-21.

HScoach

#51402
^  That tidbit looks good on paper but it doesn't make the ASC a power conference.   That says more about the weakness of the NCAC and their screwy 3-way tie-breaking mechanism.  Denison was the NCAC's Poll A but was probably the conference's 3rd best team.

The OAC is hardly a murder's row and I'm very comfortable in saying that Denison would have finished behind Mount Union, John Carroll, Marietta, Baldwin Wallace and Ohio Northern this season.  That team was not remotely at the physical level of an average OAC team.  And I fully acknowledge the average OAC team isn't anywhere near the quality of a middling WIAC, MIAC, or CCIW team.  I don't know enough about the middle of the LL, NJAC, E8 to offer an opinion on how ONU or M'Etta would compare so i'll keep quiet on that.
I find easily offended people rather offensive!

Statistics are like bikinis; what they reveal is interesting, what they hide is essential.

Jonny Utah

Quote from: HScoach on December 20, 2018, 07:30:07 AM
^  That tidbit looks good on paper but it doesn't make the ASC a power conference.   That says more about the weakness of the NCAC and their screwy 3-way tie-breaking mechanism.  Denison was the NCAC's Poll A but was probably the conference's 3rd best team.

The OAC is hardly a murder's row and I'm very comfortable in saying that Denison would have finished behind Mount Union, John Carroll, Marietta, Baldwin Wallace and Ohio Northern this season.  That team was not remotely at the physical level of an average OAC team.  And I fully acknowledge the average OAC team isn't anywhere near the quality of a middling WIAC, MIAC, or CCIW team.  I don't know enough about the middle of the LL, NJAC, E8 to offer an opinion on how ONU or M'Etta would compare so i'll keep quiet on that.

Yea the LL pretty much has 4 teams at the top who could probably all be #1.  That is not true in most conferences, and especially not the OAC or ASC.  You could say the NCAC is not a strong conference before you can say ASC is a power conference (based on the Denison/Southwetern Game).  How would Sul Ross State do against Oberlin?  That might tell us more about the two conferences. 

I think it is fair to say the ASC is a power conference based on all sorts of other data though.

Jonny Utah

Not sure if it has been discussed here or not yet, but I hear Union is playing Westfield State next year.  Makes sense as it is probably a quick day tip game (1.5 hour drive)