Future of Division III

Started by Ralph Turner, October 10, 2005, 07:27:51 PM

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johnnie_esq

Quote from: Pat Coleman on June 21, 2007, 02:45:13 PM
Whoever goes to the convention holds the votes, Esq. If a CEO decides to attend, that's fine, but mostly ADs vote.

I stand corrected then.  Something is sticking in my mind though that the Chancellors of the UW campuses made the votes regarding those specific reform proposals.  My bad.
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joehakes

Technically, each COO of an institution is the voting delegate.  They may choose to assign their voting privilege to someone else if they do not attend.  There are an increasing number of presidents who now do attend and cast the votes.  At any rate, regardless of who is casting the vote, one would assume that voting positions are discussed in advance of the convention and that no one person is making the decision.

I write up a synopsis of the proposals and the rationale for each proposal with comments about what effect each will bring.  I discuss that with my president and the provost (to whom I report) usually in person, but some years via e-mail.  I give them what I think our insitution's vote should be, but the president has final authority over the vote.

Not all presidents get involved at the same level.  If an AD were voting against the company line, I would think that there would be some trouble.

This is a fascinating discussion and I hope it keeps going.  If this continues to move forward as it most likely will, next January's convention should be extremely interesting and lively.  It looks like the gauntlet, if not already thrown down, has at least be taken out of the pocket for some fresh air.  (Acutally, I don't know where you keep gauntlets when you are not throwng them down, but I am sure that someone will know.  It is the beauty of the board.)

Warren Thompson

Quote from: joehakes on June 21, 2007, 03:58:21 PM
(Acutally, I don't know where you keep gauntlets when you are not throwng them down, but I am sure that someone will know.  It is the beauty of the board.)

Perhaps on your hands, especially in cold weather?  ;)

WLU78

#888
I am not sure how this fits, but it seems timely given the nature of this discussion.

From the FCS website:  www.collegesportingnews.com

An article about  the future of non-scholarship football in the FCS level:

June 20, 2007

Non-scholarship FCS: The Vision Thing

Charles Burton, CSN Columnist

Non-scholarship football is a part of the Division I Football Championship Subdivision that is frequently misunderstood, sometimes misrepresented, and sometimes even has teams worthy of national rankings.

This tumultuous week – which featured the death of one football conference and the birth of a single, unified home for Division I non-scholarship football – has led to fundamental changes for this part of the FCS.

Importantly, most of these changes are not ones of realignment, but ones of vision.

"The Vision Thing" was delivered last week by the commissioner of the Pioneer Football League, the sole non-scholarship football conference starting in 2008, Patty Viverito. She is also the only commissioner of two FCS conferences, also being the commish of the Gateway Football League.

Weeks before anyone dreamed that St Peter's was going to drop football, Viverito had called a summit to discuss the future of non-scholarship football, inviting all Division I schools that have non-scholarship football and those Division II schools considering it.


For the article in its entirety:

http://collegesportingnews.com/article.asp?articleid=86333

Ralph Turner

#889
IMHO, Harding (AR) is a D-2 in the Gulf South Conference and is listed as playing non-scholarship football.

For mission and vision, Harding University, Searcy AR should be in the D3 American Southwest Conference East Division.

Harding is a faith-based institution which has ties to the Church of Christ (D-2 Abilene Christian, D-1 David Lipscomb and D-1 Pepperdine as well as NAIA-1 Lubbock Christian University).

I also believe that D-2 Ouachita Baptist University (Arkadelphia, AR) should be, too.  OBU is Southern Baptist like Miss College, LaCollege, ETBU, UMHB, HPU and HSU...peer institutions.

This gives the ASC two full divisions, a nine-member East and an eight member West.

Jonny Utah

Quote from: WLU78 on June 21, 2007, 04:50:41 PM
I am not sure how this fits, but it seems timely given the nature of this discussion.

From the FCS website:  www.collegesportingnews.com

An article about  the future of non-scholarship football in the FCS level:

June 20, 2007

Non-scholarship FCS: The Vision Thing

Charles Burton, CSN Columnist

Non-scholarship football is a part of the Division I Football Championship Subdivision that is frequently misunderstood, sometimes misrepresented, and sometimes even has teams worthy of national rankings.

This tumultuous week – which featured the death of one football conference and the birth of a single, unified home for Division I non-scholarship football – has led to fundamental changes for this part of the FCS.

Importantly, most of these changes are not ones of realignment, but ones of vision.

"The Vision Thing" was delivered last week by the commissioner of the Pioneer Football League, the sole non-scholarship football conference starting in 2008, Patty Viverito. She is also the only commissioner of two FCS conferences, also being the commish of the Gateway Football League.

Weeks before anyone dreamed that St Peter's was going to drop football, Viverito had called a summit to discuss the future of non-scholarship football, inviting all Division I schools that have non-scholarship football and those Division II schools considering it.


For the article in its entirety:

http://collegesportingnews.com/article.asp?articleid=86333


Am I missing something?  Isnt the Ivy a non-scholorship division 1 conference, (and most of the Patriot league?)

frank uible


Knightstalker

The Ivy is probably not counted because they do not participate in the championships in football.  I believe that Lafayette was the last bastion of non-scholarship besides Army in the Patriot League.  Lafayette decided to give limited scholarships over the protests of many in the administration.  The awarding of scholarships at Lafayette was mainly pushed by pressure from Alumni groups.

"In the end we will survive rather than perish not because we accumulate comfort and luxury but because we accumulate wisdom"  Colonel Jack Jacobs US Army (Ret).

frank uible

I believe that in 2003 Colgate, a non-scholarship member of the Patriot League, found its way to the DIAA championship game.

Wydown Blvd.

Interesting little interview on the Colgate site. The Colgate AD outright states that he wants football scholarships...

Question: Now that Colgate gives athletic scholarships for hockey and basketball, and other sports, are there plans to give athletic scholarships for football?

Dave's Answer: Presently the Patriot League only allows need-based financial aid in football. Personally I would like to see that change to athletic scholarships because it would increase our recruiting pool.


http://athletics.colgate.edu/askdaveanswersjan.htm

Jonny Utah

Quote from: Knightstalker on June 21, 2007, 10:51:57 PM
The Ivy is probably not counted because they do not participate in the championships in football.  I believe that Lafayette was the last bastion of non-scholarship besides Army in the Patriot League.  Lafayette decided to give limited scholarships over the protests of many in the administration.  The awarding of scholarships at Lafayette was mainly pushed by pressure from Alumni groups.

Im pretty sure Holy Cross (Patriot League) does not give scholorships and that they also are not allowed to participate in the playoffs.  I could be wrong.

Wydown Blvd.

I think we are talking two different languages.

No schools in the Patriot league gives football scholarships. They only allow need-based financial aid for football players. However, the entire athletic department used to be non-scholarship. (The entire athletic department of the Ivy League is non-scholarship).

Lafeyette was the last hold-out but began giving scholarships in '06. For the Patriot League as a whole, it was basketball first due to pressure from Holy Cross, and then American University entered the conferences and changed everything. American offered scholarships in every sport when they entered (they dont have football). Presently every sport except football offers scholarships (and insert random fact: Colgate doesnt have a baseball team)

I think when Lafeyette crossed over, they cut the amount of students allowed admission via "coaches recommendation" by 25% and pretty much just redistributed the amount of scholarship funds previously delegated to athletes anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_League
http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2007/05/new-realities-part-iv-athletic.html

bill

Wydown has pretty much summed it up here (about the Patriot League)

(I'm a Patriot League Grad and former coach)....

Yes, the sports besides football CAN give out scholarships, but they don't all choose to. Some don't give out the max number of scholarships allowed, but this is on a sport by sport, school by school basis....

I wonder how long the Patriot League will hold out against the grain on football scholarships. I don't think many of the donating alumni (and there are LOTS of them - have any of you seen Lafayette's new facility?) will stand to be beaten by the likes of Monmouth and Albany on a yearly basis....
Then again, this isn't the Patriot League board, is it ? ;D
"To build may have to be the slow and laborious task of years. To destroy can be the thoughtless act of a single day."

Jonny Utah

Quote from: bill on June 22, 2007, 10:23:00 PM
Wydown has pretty much summed it up here (about the Patriot League)

(I'm a Patriot League Grad and former coach)....

Yes, the sports besides football CAN give out scholarships, but they don't all choose to. Some don't give out the max number of scholarships allowed, but this is on a sport by sport, school by school basis....

I wonder how long the Patriot League will hold out against the grain on football scholarships. I don't think many of the donating alumni (and there are LOTS of them - have any of you seen Lafayette's new facility?) will stand to be beaten by the likes of Monmouth and Albany on a yearly basis....
Then again, this isn't the Patriot League board, is it ? ;D

I know a lot of Holy Cross alumni feel the same way.  Once a national d1-aa power that could give BC a game everyonce in a while is now a school that stuggles with schools that have had football teams for a few years.

Wydown Blvd.

#899
It makes me wonder... To make the most of the need-based aid. Hypothetically, so, do you recruit lots of poor smart kids or/and lots of rich smart kids? Or is recruiting the smart middle class student work as long as you cross your fingers and hope he gets an outside merit-based scholarship?

Dealing with factors including both the alumni and the image factor must be interesting. (Alumni factor being the donations back to the school's [athletic] budget; image factor literally being the image/perception of the school)

And then, if some of the other teams, outside of football, don't want to use all of their scholarship money (for whatever reason) do they follow that same thought process (ie: capitalize on the student/family income level)