FB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

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izzy stradlin

#32940
Quote from: USee on November 29, 2015, 10:43:52 AM
-They really missed Johnny Peltz yesterday. Bowers is a great QB but JP11 is as well and JP11 is a better passer than Bowers. Andrew threw for 349 yds but completed only 50% of his passes.

One thing I would really like to see next year is way fewer designed QB runs with Peltz.   Going back to the playoffs last year and the first two games of this season (the only two for which he was fully healthy- otherwise with 3 different injuries), Peltz had 20, 20, 10, and 13 carries per game with mostly designed QB keepers or QB options.   

Even with Snebold leaving, Wheaton's Oline is going to be stronger next year (they return 3 very good soph starters and 1 junior) and they bring back the most talented running back I have seen in the program. They don't need to risk injuring their best QB that often.

They are going to be able to physically beat most teams they play next year but there will be a point, like Saturday, where they will be physically matched.  In these situations, standing tall in the pocket and converting on 3rd down is often what wins games. Wheaton had a ton of yards yesterday but was 6-18 on third down, often from makeable passing distances.   

emma17

Quote from: thunder38 on November 29, 2015, 06:27:10 PM
Quote from: thunderdog on November 29, 2015, 05:46:25 PM
I'll try to find time later to post my thoughts on UWW @ WC game, but for now, would just like to get everyone's opinion on the "illegal batting" call that went against Wheaton in that disastrous 2nd qtr. Here's what happened: Ratliffe took the handoff and headed towards the Wheaton sideline. He fumbled the ball and the trajectory of the ball was straight towards the Thunder sidelines. It took a high bounce from inbounds, broke the vertical plane of the sideline (which is insignificant in itself). #44 Dansdill made an incredibly athletic play to jump from inbounds, breaking the vertical plane of the sidelines, was midair while out-of-bounds, and basically caught the ball and immediately threw it back towards the in bounds, directly towards another Wheaton defender (yes it went "forward" by maybe a yard) who was fully in bounds and recovered the ball. The refs called Dansdill for "illegal batting". UWW kept possession in addition to the 10 yard penalty. IMO, this is a gross misinterpretation of "illegal batting". Can anyone shed some light on this? Been scouring the NCAA rule book and I think I've found the sections that address the play, but honestly, some of the "legalese" makes it tough to interpret. If you could please show me in the rule book why that was the appropriate call, I would appreciate it. From what I've found, pages 87 (rule 8, section 7- Responsibility and Impetus) , 101-102 (rule 9 section 4- Batting) and page 205 (rule interpretation 9, section 4, part 7) are where we find the answers, just need help with the interpretation.

Not saying the outcome of the game would have been different in any way, but that play in particular totally erased some much needed momo for Wheaton...

The play you're referring to took place in the first quarter with Wheaton up 7-0. It probably didn't change the outcome but given the way Wheaton drove the field on their first possession and taking over around the Warhawk 40, it certainly would've been interesting to see what would've happened if that play had unfolded differently.

I talked to a couple of the Wheaton coaches after the game and they agreed with the call. It ultimately boils down to the fact that Dansdill sent the ball forward when he kept it in play. Because he hadn't established possession, it couldn't be considered a forward lateral penalty which would've allowed Wheaton to keep the ball. Had he kept in in bounds even with where he scooped it up or sent it backwards from that point, the play would've been legal.

That play was one of the better plays I've seen in a football game.  I believe that was UWW's second or third fumble/dropped exchange in the first quarter.  The Wheaton fans were really into the game at that point and a turnover would have kept it going. 
UWW's answer, made possible on the long pass Usee mentioned, was huge.  Once UWW scored their second touchdown, the crowd was never really the same.         

thunderdog

#32942
I'm really not trying to be "that guy"... however, the more I read the rulebook, the more convinced I am that this play was ruled INCORRECTLY, or more accurately, it was the right call, but WAY WRONG enforcement

Page 205 of the NCAA rulebook, Rules Interpretations. Rule 9, Section 4, part 7 reads as follows:

"Team A's fumble in flight is batted forward by B1, and the ball goes out of bounds behind Team A's goal line. RULING: Safety. Batting a fumble in flight does not add a new impetus (Rule 8-7-2-b). Team B foul. Penalty - 10 yards."

This is the closest scenario that I could find in the interpretations part of the rulebook to what actually happened. Look at the ruling... Team A (the fumbling team) was still charged with the safety even though Team B (the batting team) was charged with a 10 yard penalty.  What I find interesting is that a batted ball is NOT a play that is blown dead, the play continues and the result of the play still stands and then the 10 yard penalty is assessed.

From what I'm reading gentlemen, the officiating crew got this one way wrong. Yes, Wheaton should have been penalized 10 yards, but it should have been Wheaton ball!~  Are there any officiating experts or aficionados out there who could weigh in?

wheels81

Great photos in the Recap of the Wheaton/Whitewater.  In particular the controversial batting of the ball by Dansdill #44.  The flag was thrown on the opposite side of the field and probably came after discussion.  It was the 2nd or 3rd fumble that Whitewater did not lose possession early in the game. 
http://d3photography.photoshelter.com/gallery/NCAAFB-Wheaton-IL-vs-Wisc-Whitewater-11-28-15/G00007ByltQrOO3s/2/C0000J61pAdl39YQ

photos 61-79.
"I am what I am"  PTSM

02 Warhawk

Quote from: thunderdog on November 30, 2015, 04:12:51 PM
I'm really not trying to be "that guy"... however, the more I read the rulebook, the more convinced I am that this play was ruled INCORRECTLY

Page 205 of the NCAA rulebook, Rules Interpretations. Rule 9, Section 4, part 7 reads as follows:

"Team A's fumble in flight is batted forward by B1, and the ball goes out of bound behind Team A's goal line. RULING: Safety. Batting a fumble in flight does not add a new impetus (Rule 8-7-2-b). Team B foul. Penalty - 10 yards."

This is the closest scenario that I could find in the interpretations part of the rulebook to what actually happened. Look at the ruling... Team A (the fumbling team) was still charged with the safety even though Team B (the batting team) was charged with a 10 yard penalty.  What I find interesting is that a batted ball is NOT a play that is blown dead, the play continues and the result of the play still stands and then the 10 yard penalty is assessed.

From what I'm reading gentlemen, the officiating crew got this one way wrong. Are there any officiating experts or aficionados out there who could weigh in?

KitchenSink over on the WIAC board is a high school football official....

Neverwas

Quote from: wheels81 on November 30, 2015, 04:17:15 PM
Great photos in the Recap of the Wheaton/Whitewater.  In particular the controversial batting of the ball by Dansdill #44.  The flag was thrown on the opposite side of the field and probably came after discussion.  It was the 2nd or 3rd fumble that Whitewater did not lose possession early in the game. 
http://d3photography.photoshelter.com/gallery/NCAAFB-Wheaton-IL-vs-Wisc-Whitewater-11-28-15/G00007ByltQrOO3s/2/C0000J61pAdl39YQ

photos 61-79.

Possession?
http://d3photography.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/NCAAFB-Wheaton-IL-vs-Wisc-Whitewater-11-28-15/G00007ByltQrOO3s/I0000RB2H8N8az08/C0000J61pAdl39YQ

02 Warhawk

Quote from: Neverwas on November 30, 2015, 04:27:25 PM
Quote from: wheels81 on November 30, 2015, 04:17:15 PM
Great photos in the Recap of the Wheaton/Whitewater.  In particular the controversial batting of the ball by Dansdill #44.  The flag was thrown on the opposite side of the field and probably came after discussion.  It was the 2nd or 3rd fumble that Whitewater did not lose possession early in the game. 
http://d3photography.photoshelter.com/gallery/NCAAFB-Wheaton-IL-vs-Wisc-Whitewater-11-28-15/G00007ByltQrOO3s/2/C0000J61pAdl39YQ

photos 61-79.

Possession?
http://d3photography.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/NCAAFB-Wheaton-IL-vs-Wisc-Whitewater-11-28-15/G00007ByltQrOO3s/I0000RB2H8N8az08/C0000J61pAdl39YQ

You can't judge "possession" from a single photo. Great shot though!

wally_wabash

I'm pretty sure if he grabbed it and threw it forward, that's a no-no.  It's a great play as I look at it flip book style, but I think it's a foul. 

The example you cited has to do with the ball behind the goal line, and batting rules in the end zone are different.  As I understand it, nobody can bat the ball in any direction in the end zone.  That's a foul.  Usually this scenario plays out with a QB or a punter kicking a loose ball out of the back of the end zone to avoid giving up a defensive touchdown.  This is actually a penalty, but rarely called because the result of the play is a safety and that penalty is getting declined 100 times out of 100.  There was an NFL game earlier this year where the defense intentionally knocked a ball out of the end zone and there was no call at the end of the game.  Post facto I think the consensus was that there should have been a foul on the defense for illegal touching or batting or whatever, and the offense should have been able to run another play with a half the distance to the G markoff. 
"Nothing in the world is more expensive than free."- The Deacon of HBO's The Wire

Neverwas

I think if you grab and throw forward it isn't an illegal batting of the ball. Wouldn't it be an illegal forward lateral after a change in possession?

Regardless... Looks like Dansdill had time enough to gather and fall out of bounds. What a great play. A play that doesn't change the outcome of the game but would have made it quite interesting.

thunderdog

Quote from: wally_wabash on November 30, 2015, 04:40:54 PM
I'm pretty sure if he grabbed it and threw it forward, that's a no-no.  It's a great play as I look at it flip book style, but I think it's a foul. 

The example you cited has to do with the ball behind the goal line, and batting rules in the end zone are different.  As I understand it, nobody can bat the ball in any direction in the end zone.  That's a foul.  Usually this scenario plays out with a QB or a punter kicking a loose ball out of the back of the end zone to avoid giving up a defensive touchdown.  This is actually a penalty, but rarely called because the result of the play is a safety and that penalty is getting declined 100 times out of 100.  There was an NFL game earlier this year where the defense intentionally knocked a ball out of the end zone and there was no call at the end of the game.  Post facto I think the consensus was that there should have been a foul on the defense for illegal touching or batting or whatever, and the offense should have been able to run another play with a half the distance to the G markoff.

Wally,

1) in the scenario, the batted ball happens outside the endzone, but then goes out-of-bounds in the endzone after it was batted forward by the defender (but you are correct in stating that a ball batted in the endzone in any direction is a penalty)
2) in the scenario, the offensive fumbling team was still charged with a safety even though there was a 10 yard penalty on the defensive team for the the illegal batting
3) I'm not arguing whether or not there was a penalty, there was, Dansdill flipped/tossed/batted the ball forward.  However, the play still continues and the result of the play still stands... according to the scenario... otherwise, why would there still be a safety?

KitchenSink

Quote from: thunderdog on November 30, 2015, 04:12:51 PM
I'm really not trying to be "that guy"... however, the more I read the rulebook, the more convinced I am that this play was ruled INCORRECTLY, or more accurately, it was the right call, but WAY WRONG enforcement

Page 205 of the NCAA rulebook, Rules Interpretations. Rule 9, Section 4, part 7 reads as follows:

"Team A's fumble in flight is batted forward by B1, and the ball goes out of bounds behind Team A's goal line. RULING: Safety. Batting a fumble in flight does not add a new impetus (Rule 8-7-2-b). Team B foul. Penalty - 10 yards."

This is the closest scenario that I could find in the interpretations part of the rulebook to what actually happened. Look at the ruling... Team A (the fumbling team) was still charged with the safety even though Team B (the batting team) was charged with a 10 yard penalty.  What I find interesting is that a batted ball is NOT a play that is blown dead, the play continues and the result of the play still stands and then the 10 yard penalty is assessed.

From what I'm reading gentlemen, the officiating crew got this one way wrong. Yes, Wheaton should have been penalized 10 yards, but it should have been Wheaton ball!~  Are there any officiating experts or aficionados out there who could weigh in?

I'm a high school official - so I can reference the high school interpretation.  Can't specifically say if this a situation where the NCAA rule is the same or different.

If the defense commits a foul WHILE THE BALL IS LOOSE, they cannot acquire possession.  Holding, block in the back, face mask, and - yes, illegal batting - anything like that which occurs while the ball is loose means possession stays with the offense and the penalty is assessed.  That is why you see officials throw a bean bag to mark the spot the ball was fumbled.  That's the spot where a foul gets assessed from.

In HS, you can't bat a fumble once it is grounded (hits the ground).  That's offense or defense.  And while I was on the wrong side of the field to see it at all Saturday, it appears the consensus is that the ball hit the ground.  That's the difference from the example cited which refers to a fumble IN FLIGHT.  Altering the direction of the ball, like Dansdill did without gaining possession, has to be ruled illegal batting of a grounded loose ball.

Screwy play, but (presuming the NCAA rule book is aligned with the HS rule book) the officials appear to have handled it correctly.
What the hell was that?  That was a Drop-kick.  Drop-kick? How much is that worth?  Three points.  THREE POINTS?!

thunderdog

#32951
A big thanks to Mike Swider, his staff, and all of the Thunder players for a phenomenal 2015 football season. For the first time since the 2002-2003 seasons, Wheaton College successfully defended it's CCIW crown... and for the first time in school history (and for the first time in CCIW play since 84-85 Augie) Wheaton College completed back-to-back undefeated (and untied) regular seasons. THAT'S SPECIAL! I realize that the players and coaches probably don't want to hear that right now as the sting of Saturday's loss is still fresh, but anytime you've done something for the first time in school history (considering Wheaton's strong, proud history), you get to take that with you for the rest of your lives, no one can take it away. Cherish it!

Seniors: #3 Austin Langemeier, #5 Mikey Swider, #10 Wes Cannonier, #15 Tim Lovett, #18 Luke Thorson, #19 Andrew Lindquist, #23 Alex Mendez, #32 C Danny Puknaitis, #44 C Adam Dansdill, #46 John Clark, #47 Tryg Veker, #56 Logan McRae, #57 Bliss Jung, #68 Christian Hollinger, #69 Chad Reitz, #71 C Matt Snebold, #83 Brandon Gray, #90 Jack Nussbaum, #92 C Josh Aldrin, #93 Bobby Pugsley
THANK YOU FOR A MEMORABLE SEASON!
This senior class leaves some big shoes to fill... who will fill them? Who's ready to devote themselves to an off-season of getting bigger, faster, stronger, and more knowledgeable so that the game slows down as you speed up? I'm excited to see what players fill the void left by this remarkable senior class.

As for the game on Saturday...

Wheaton couldn't have asked for a better start. After kicking off to UWW to start the game, the Warhawks would get 1 first down before the Wheaton D forced a punt. On the third play of the drive, Ratliffe fumbled, the ball went right towards a Thunder defender but Wheaton could not hold onto the ball, UWW recovers. UWW punts it to the WC 22, but is called for interference, so Wheaton starts from their 37. 10 plays and 63 yards later, Wheaton takes a 7-0 lead on a 15 yard Bowers pass to Andrew Lindquist.
On UWW's next drive, on the 3rd play, QB Nelson completes a short pass to Gumina who has the punched out from behind by Ashby. This would lead to the play that has consumed much of my time scouring the NCAA rulebook...anyway... Dansdill makes an incredibly athletic, heads up play to grab the ball with 2 hands, 1 foot in bounds, his momentum forcing him to leap out-of-bounds, but tosses the ball (forward  >:() where it's recovered by Wheaton. However, Wheaton is called for the illegal batting and UWW would go on to score on a 5 play 66 yard drive, highlighted by a 39 yard catch by Worth. Kudos to UWW's QB Nelson for recognizing that Wheaton had been called for offsides on that particular play and he had a "free play". What's frustrating from a Wheaton's fan perspective is that #9 Marcus Smith had perfect positioning on the play, but was just not aggressive enough making a play on the ball to prevent the catch.
From this point until halftime, UWW showed exactly why they are defending National Champs, they just dominated Wheaton, eventually taking a 21-7 lead over host Wheaton with about 6 minutes left till the half. When Wheaton gets the ball, they finally break the momo of the Warhawks by driving 75 yards on 5 play to cut the lead to 14-21 with just 3:16 left till half... Those final 3 minutes and 16 seconds were just disastrous for the Thunder. After returning the kickoff 28 yards out to their own 41, UWW goes 59 yards in 6 plays to increase the lead to 28-14. 1:04 left till half.
The next kickoff has been talked about in depth on here already, and I agree, the decision to bring the ball out of the corner of the endzone in the first place was unwarranted. Then compounding it by trying to bring it back across the middle, getting tackled at the 4 yard line was disastrous. Wheaton manages to get 1 first down, but eventually has to punt. The punt gets partially blocked and UWW gets the ball back at the Wheaton 28 with 17 seconds left. Wheaton North product Lake Buchar would kick a 46 yard FG with just 1 second on the clock to make it a 3 score game, 31-14 at half.
Given the incredible momo on the Warhawks side heading into half, I do have to give Wheaton a ton of credit for not giving up and fighting till the very end. One can make the case that Wheaton outplayed UWW the second half, but unfortunately, the damage was done. Not many teams can come back from a 3 score deficit against a purple power. Even when Ratliffe rumbled for 53 yards on a 3rd and 24 in the 3rd qtr down to the Wheaton 3, the team still didn't quit. The D held its ground and #9 Marcus Smith forced a Ratliffe fumble, recovered by #52 Ashby.

Some of my other impressions from the game:
1) Wheaton's secondary, collectively, had probably their worst game of the entire season. Outside of #23 Mendez breaking up a couple of passes and #9 Smith forcing the fumble on the goal line, not much else went right for this unit. Especially when it came to run support in bringing down Ratliffe.
2) UWW's QB Nelson and WR's Worth and Hudson came to play. Wheaton's D knew they would have to stop Ratliffe (an amazing 38 carries) but Nelson-to-Worth and Nelson-to-Hudson made big plays when they needed it
3) Bowers looked hesitant to run the ball for some reason. On his INT in the 2nd qtr, I thought he had all kinds of open field to run for the first down on a 3rd and 6 at the UWW 36. Instead he decides to throw it, and pretty much threw it right to the UWW LB Dischler. That was a HUGE play. The score was 14-7, but Wheaton was driving. If Bowers runs for the 1st down...
4) I thought DT's Aldrin (9 tackles, .5 TFL) and Spielman (8 tackles, 2 TFL's, 1 Sack) played admirably. If you were to have told me those would be their stats before the game started, I would tell you that Wheaton wins the game. Yes they did wear down at times, but, 38 carries by Ratliffe and with that behemoth of an offensive line... Wow! Heckuva game by those 2!
5) #44 Adam Dansdill. 16 stinkin' tackles! And the tackle he made in the open field on the reverse, wow! If he doesn't make that tackle for a 9 yard loss, #16 Larson would have easily gone for 30 or 40 yards as there was nary a Wheaton defender in sight besides Dansdill (as it were, the very next play would be Ratliffe's 53 yard run on 3rd and 24  >:() Dansdill cemented his name right up there with some legendary MLB to play at Wheaton, Chad Thorson and Chip Parrish
6) #23 Sola Olateju. How good did he look? I think you can make a case he was the best athlete on the field, displaying both speed and power. His 14 carries and 3 catches simply weren't enough... I think O-Coordinator Sears rides Olateju for about 25 carries if he had another shot at play calling this game.
7) #89 Zach Lindquist. 9 catches for 123 yards and all kinds of broken tackles along the way. A truly gifted TE with a blend of power/size/soft hands. He should continue to be an absolute force for the Thunder next year.

And, finally, hats off to the Whitewater Warhawks. What a heckuva team. No wonder they are the defending d3 National Champs (and 6 of the last 8). As Usee has already stated, it will take a great team to beat this Whitewater squad. Good luck to them the rest of the way.

USee

Thunderdog, good comments.

If we assess the Thunder and where they are I think we have closed the gap with the top 3 teams. We can play with those guys if we continue to build on the talent level we have in the program today. Saturday was a winnable game from a personnel perspective. The Thunder didn't execute. They were not over-matched. That team was a complete team that could compete with anyone. They didn't have enough speed at WR and maybe size in the secondary, but outside of that we had a great team. Tough draw or we would still be playing most likely. I like the direction the Thunder are headed. I like the direction the conference is headed. I see improvement top to bottom. North Park and Carthage were way better than anticipated. While it stinks to be home this weekend, the future is bright.

USee

Congratulations to the CCIW's reps on the All-Region team. These are the candidates for the D3 All-American team announced in Salem just prior to the Stagg:

First Team:
Peter Gibson, OL Wheaton
Matt Snebold, OL Wheaton
Adam Dansdill, LB Wheaton
Mikey Swider, LB Wheaton
Tyrell Bolden, DB IWU

2nd Team:
Zach Lindquist, TE Wheaton
Eric Knaperek, OL North Central

3rd Team:
Sam Frasco, QB Augustana
Austin Breunig, RB North Central
Chayce Volpert, K Millikin
Logan McRae, LB Wheaton
Josh Aldrin, DL Wheaton
Rich Zirngibl, DB North Central
Alex Mendez, DB Wheaton

CardinalAlum

Congrats to all of the All Region selections!   Dansdill is as good a linebacker as I have seen in my 30+ years around this conference!   I will not be missing him!   ;D

Millikin hired a new football coach.  It caught me off guard as I didn't realize Etherton had resigned after their last game.   I know we don't have much MU representation on here, but it seemed like Millikin had been better than they had been recently.
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