FB: Northwest Conference

Started by admin, August 16, 2005, 05:18:50 AM

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MRMIKESMITH

I disagree, in some conferences that have teams with 100+ players, not everyone gets evaluated fairly, especially when there is not enough coaches to properly run separate practices for freshmen/3rd string. So setting aside JV games, allows players to be evaluated in game like conditions. It also gives families an opportunity to see their son(s) play. From my experience, I saw quite a few young men turn heads during a JV game that wouldn't have been displayed during normal practice conditions and without the JV games, it would have taken longer for them to get to the Varsity game and make productive impact.

RFB

Quote from: MANDGSU on September 10, 2019, 12:12:07 PM
I disagree, in some conferences that have teams with 100+ players, not everyone gets evaluated fairly, especially when there is not enough coaches to properly run separate practices for freshmen/3rd string. So setting aside JV games, allows players to be evaluated in game like conditions. It also gives families an opportunity to see their son(s) play. From my experience, I saw quite a few young men turn heads during a JV game that wouldn't have been displayed during normal practice conditions and without the JV games, it would have taken longer for them to get to the Varsity game and make productive impact.

That's what scout teams are for. Take it to the one's and two's and you will get noticed. If you're 5th-10th on the depth chart at d3 you were recruited to make money for the university. Time to give up the sport and just go to school.

D O.C.

I suspect that 10 game JV schedule of Mount Union has a bit to do with their success.

RFB

Quote from: D O.C. on September 10, 2019, 12:55:56 PM
I suspect that 10 game JV schedule of Mount Union has a bit to do with their success.

Mount Union is a misnomer. Nothing they do should be used as an example for the average D3 football program.

(509)Rat

Quote from: RFB on September 10, 2019, 12:53:52 PMThat's what scout teams are for. Take it to the one's and two's and you will get noticed.

Let's pretend for a minute that any level above high school still has any meaningful, live, full contact action in practice between a scout team and the starters...You still aren't developing or getting as many looks as a scout team guy in practice as you would as someone in a JV game against another d3 school or local CC.

The only reason not to have a JV is because you don't have the bodies or financially it doesn't make sense. Both are true at most west coast d3 programs.

RowanPhan

Quote from: (509)Rat on September 10, 2019, 01:15:30 PM
Quote from: RFB on September 10, 2019, 12:53:52 PMThat's what scout teams are for. Take it to the one's and two's and you will get noticed.

Let's pretend for a minute that any level above high school still has any meaningful, live, full contact action in practice between a scout team and the starters...You still aren't developing or getting as many looks as a scout team guy in practice as you would as someone in a JV game against another d3 school or local CC.

The only reason not to have a JV is because you don't have the bodies or financially it doesn't make sense. Both are true at most west coast d3 programs.
Rowan had to cancel their 2! JV games last year because of overall team injuries and lack of bodies for the games.
Go Rowan!

RFB

#42141
Quote from: (509)Rat on September 10, 2019, 01:15:30 PM
Quote from: RFB on September 10, 2019, 12:53:52 PMThat's what scout teams are for. Take it to the one's and two's and you will get noticed.

Let's pretend for a minute that any level above high school still has any meaningful, live, full contact action in practice between a scout team and the starters...You still aren't developing or getting as many looks as a scout team guy in practice as you would as someone in a JV game against another d3 school or local CC.

The only reason not to have a JV is because you don't have the bodies or financially it doesn't make sense. Both are true at most west coast d3 programs.

Maybe I'm just dated in this regard I guess. Full contact was a regular thing in practice when I played. Redlands had the numbers to go at each other with no worries. Tuesday night practices were full on wars between offense and defense. None of this soft ass **** we see in todays game.

hazzben

JV has been very common in the MIAC for a long time. SJU didn't have it under Gags, but Gary F. realized it was a really logical way to evaluate players in game situations who weren't getting a ton of practice/game reps. For teams like Bethel, UST, Concordia, GAC, it's been a key component of player development for decades. Also given the decrease in contact during the season for practices, it provides important live reps for younger players. Bethel has had multiple kids who weren't considered big time recruits who showed out in JV games and parlayed that into varsity playing time. Granted, all of these programs have well over 100 players on the teams. If you're struggling to get numbers over 70, a JV is probably tougher to pull off.

MUC57

#42143
Mount Union has had a JV team for many years. This year, 9 games are scheduled. Other years have had a 10 game schedule.
It does help, in fact, to have a large number on the team. Mount typically starts the season wth between 225 and 250 players, of which, about. 80 to 100 are freshmen. Perfect circumstances for establishment of a JV team. And they're usually very good. I'm sure they could beat a lot of varsity programs, and indeed, they do in the course of playing their schedule. Some of their opponents bring their varsity squads.
JV existence is a very valuable tool for getting your players up to speed. Hey, it works for Mount Union!  ::)  ;D
                                    GO EVERYBODY!
I'm old! I get mixed up and I forget things! Go Everybody! 🏈 ☠

olddog

Quote from: RFB on September 10, 2019, 12:53:52 PM
Quote from: MANDGSU on September 10, 2019, 12:12:07 PM
I disagree, in some conferences that have teams with 100+ players, not everyone gets evaluated fairly, especially when there is not enough coaches to properly run separate practices for freshmen/3rd string. So setting aside JV games, allows players to be evaluated in game like conditions. It also gives families an opportunity to see their son(s) play. From my experience, I saw quite a few young men turn heads during a JV game that wouldn't have been displayed during normal practice conditions and without the JV games, it would have taken longer for them to get to the Varsity game and make productive impact.

That's what scout teams are for. Take it to the one's and two's and you will get noticed. If you're 5th-10th on the depth chart at d3 you were recruited to make money for the university. Time to give up the sport and just go to school.

RFB, I think you are showing your age, kids have changed...they need the gratification and some folks are paying more than ever.
California, Where no cares who is in charge and zero accountability

olddog

Quote from: RFB on September 10, 2019, 01:22:51 PM
Quote from: (509)Rat on September 10, 2019, 01:15:30 PM
Quote from: RFB on September 10, 2019, 12:53:52 PMThat's what scout teams are for. Take it to the one's and two's and you will get noticed.

Let's pretend for a minute that any level above high school still has any meaningful, live, full contact action in practice between a scout team and the starters...You still aren't developing or getting as many looks as a scout team guy in practice as you would as someone in a JV game against another d3 school or local CC.

The only reason not to have a JV is because you don't have the bodies or financially it doesn't make sense. Both are true at most west coast d3 programs.

NCAA limits full contact now and how many hours in pads, High school in CA is even worse ...I know the Tues night stories, Dr. A loved Tues night.

Maybe I'm just dated in this regard I guess. Full contact was a regular thing in practice when I played. Redlands had the numbers to go at each other with no worries. Tuesday night practices were full on wars between offense and defense. None of this soft ass **** we see in todays game.
California, Where no cares who is in charge and zero accountability

D O.C.

#42146
RFB:  "And we liked it!"

RFB

Quote from: olddog on September 10, 2019, 02:46:45 PM
Quote from: RFB on September 10, 2019, 01:22:51 PM
Quote from: (509)Rat on September 10, 2019, 01:15:30 PM
Quote from: RFB on September 10, 2019, 12:53:52 PMThat's what scout teams are for. Take it to the one's and two's and you will get noticed.

Let's pretend for a minute that any level above high school still has any meaningful, live, full contact action in practice between a scout team and the starters...You still aren't developing or getting as many looks as a scout team guy in practice as you would as someone in a JV game against another d3 school or local CC.

The only reason not to have a JV is because you don't have the bodies or financially it doesn't make sense. Both are true at most west coast d3 programs.

NCAA limits full contact now and how many hours in pads, High school in CA is even worse ...I know the Tues night stories, Dr. A loved Tues night.

Maybe I'm just dated in this regard I guess. Full contact was a regular thing in practice when I played. Redlands had the numbers to go at each other with no worries. Tuesday night practices were full on wars between offense and defense. None of this soft ass **** we see in todays game.

Yep. Dr. Appleton was a regular spectator at Tuesday night practices. He was an awesome President and is greatly missed.

RFB


formerd3db

#42149
Quote from: RFB on September 10, 2019, 12:02:46 PM
Quote from: olddog on September 10, 2019, 11:36:13 AM
I noticed LF had a JV Schedule tab, is this new. How many games do they get in and who do they play. I think the larger SCIAC schools should add JV games too, but $$$

JV games are dumb. Best competition is within your own program daily at practice. Redlands experimented with it in the past.
Quote from: MANDGSU on September 10, 2019, 12:12:07 PM
I disagree, in some conferences that have teams with 100+ players, not everyone gets evaluated fairly, especially when there is not enough coaches to properly run separate practices for freshmen/3rd string. So setting aside JV games, allows players to be evaluated in game like conditions. It also gives families an opportunity to see their son(s) play. From my experience, I saw quite a few young men turn heads during a JV game that wouldn't have been displayed during normal practice conditions and without the JV games, it would have taken longer for them to get to the Varsity game and make productive impact.
Quote from: RFB on September 10, 2019, 12:53:52 PM
Quote from: MANDGSU on September 10, 2019, 12:12:07 PM
I disagree, in some conferences that have teams with 100+ players, not everyone gets evaluated fairly, especially when there is not enough coaches to properly run separate practices for freshmen/3rd string. So setting aside JV games, allows players to be evaluated in game like conditions. It also gives families an opportunity to see their son(s) play. From my experience, I saw quite a few young men turn heads during a JV game that wouldn't have been displayed during normal practice conditions and without the JV games, it would have taken longer for them to get to the Varsity game and make productive impact.

That's what scout teams are for. Take it to the one's and two's and you will get noticed. If you're 5th-10th on the depth chart at d3 you were recruited to make money for the university. Time to give up the sport and just go to school.
Quote from: (509)Rat on September 10, 2019, 01:15:30 PM
Quote from: RFB on September 10, 2019, 12:53:52 PMThat's what scout teams are for. Take it to the one's and two's and you will get noticed.

Let's pretend for a minute that any level above high school still has any meaningful, live, full contact action in practice between a scout team and the starters...You still aren't developing or getting as many looks as a scout team guy in practice as you would as someone in a JV game against another d3 school or local CC.

The only reason not to have a JV is because you don't have the bodies or financially it doesn't make sense. Both are true at most west coast d3 programs.
Quote from: RowanPhan on September 10, 2019, 01:17:55 PM
Quote from: (509)Rat on September 10, 2019, 01:15:30 PM
Quote from: RFB on September 10, 2019, 12:53:52 PMThat's what scout teams are for. Take it to the one's and two's and you will get noticed.

Let's pretend for a minute that any level above high school still has any meaningful, live, full contact action in practice between a scout team and the starters...You still aren't developing or getting as many looks as a scout team guy in practice as you would as someone in a JV game against another d3 school or local CC.

The only reason not to have a JV is because you don't have the bodies or financially it doesn't make sense. Both are true at most west coast d3 programs.
Rowan had to cancel their 2! JV games last year because of overall team injuries and lack of bodies for the games.
Quote from: RFB on September 10, 2019, 01:22:51 PM
Quote from: (509)Rat on September 10, 2019, 01:15:30 PM
Quote from: RFB on September 10, 2019, 12:53:52 PMThat's what scout teams are for. Take it to the one's and two's and you will get noticed.

Let's pretend for a minute that any level above high school still has any meaningful, live, full contact action in practice between a scout team and the starters...You still aren't developing or getting as many looks as a scout team guy in practice as you would as someone in a JV game against another d3 school or local CC.

The only reason not to have a JV is because you don't have the bodies or financially it doesn't make sense. Both are true at most west coast d3 programs.

Maybe I'm just dated in this regard I guess. Full contact was a regular thing in practice when I played. Redlands had the numbers to go at each other with no worries. Tuesday night practices were full on wars between offense and defense. None of this soft ass **** we see in todays game.
Quote from: hazzben on September 10, 2019, 02:20:03 PM
JV has been very common in the MIAC for a long time. SJU didn't have it under Gags, but Gary F. realized it was a really logical way to evaluate players in game situations who weren't getting a ton of practice/game reps. For teams like Bethel, UST, Concordia, GAC, it's been a key component of player development for decades. Also given the decrease in contact during the season for practices, it provides important live reps for younger players. Bethel has had multiple kids who weren't considered big time recruits who showed out in JV games and parlayed that into varsity playing time. Granted, all of these programs have well over 100 players on the teams. If you're struggling to get numbers over 70, a JV is probably tougher to pull off.
Quote from: olddog on September 10, 2019, 02:44:07 PM
Quote from: RFB on September 10, 2019, 12:53:52 PM
Quote from: MANDGSU on September 10, 2019, 12:12:07 PM
I disagree, in some conferences that have teams with 100+ players, not everyone gets evaluated fairly, especially when there is not enough coaches to properly run separate practices for freshmen/3rd string. So setting aside JV games, allows players to be evaluated in game like conditions. It also gives families an opportunity to see their son(s) play. From my experience, I saw quite a few young men turn heads during a JV game that wouldn't have been displayed during normal practice conditions and without the JV games, it would have taken longer for them to get to the Varsity game and make productive impact.

That's what scout teams are for. Take it to the one's and two's and you will get noticed. If you're 5th-10th on the depth chart at d3 you were recruited to make money for the university. Time to give up the sport and just go to school.

RFB, I think you are showing your age, kids have changed...they need the gratification and some folks are paying more than ever.
Quote from: olddog on September 10, 2019, 11:36:13 AM
I noticed LF had a JV Schedule tab, is this new. How many games do they get in and who do they play. I think the larger SCIAC schools should add JV games too, but $$$

Great discussion, gentlemen.  I think you all have valid points.  I believe it is clear (and I'm assuming based on the discussion comments) that JV programs can be a positive tool and worth having for many of the schools, however, the existence of one being essentially dependent on the numbers for any school's program.   It does provide opportunity for the underclassmen, and particularly the freshman, to get noticed and potentially earn a spot on the traveling roster and play on special teams.  During the two years I coached in college, I always and continually told our players who were going to be participating in a JV game those three aforementioned aspects and to keep a positive attitude as well as they had better be ready to step up at a moments notice in case someone ahead of them in their position became injured-the latter, of course, which none of us ever wanted to see happen, yet as we all know is simply part of the game and risk.   

One negative (or drawback) with regard to JV programs that wasn't mentioned, is that it takes away one game in the total allowed for a player to participate in and, in some instances, although rare, that can cause a problem with regard for the need of a player.  For example, let's say a sophomore or perhaps even a junior who is on the second team and of equal talent as his teammate who is ahead of him, yet is not getting much playing time.  The coaching staff decides to give that player a chance for p.t. and "keeping the rust off" in a JV game; then the player on the first team slot gets injured and out for the season and, thus, a game is "wasted" for the player who was asked to play in the JV game.  A rare occurence, but it does happen.  Yet, again, that is just part of the risk in all aspects.

At the same time, and...I'm showing my age here, possibly like RFB :o ;) I am "old school" and still also like the idea of the scout teams in practice, still trying to show the coaches what they can do and getting noticed.  Even if there is a JV program, players should go "at it" in regular practices with that kind of intensity.  It reminds me of the walk-on players at the bigger schools who end up becoming successful and "busting their tails" for a long time (which I think is a fantastic thing when it occurs), although that is, admittedly, a somewhat different situation/atmosphere than we are talking about here for DIII.  However, the "principle" is essentially the same for both. (And not to forget a quick mention about the days "way back" when freshman were not eligible for the varsity team at colleges and universities and thus having the freshman teams until the early 1970s when that rule was changed by the NCAA.)

I also agree, though, with what has been mentioned regarding the modern trend toward decrease in contact opportunities in regular day practice sessions (for the obvious safety concerns that have been raised in the last several years). That does limit, to some degree, the chance of a player having a great showing, for example on special team days, and thus getting noticed.  Again, therein the positive of having a JV program if that school is fortunate to be able to field one.

And finally, I also agree with RFB, and this is simply the hard reality, that if you are that player who is way down on the depth chart (yes, including as a freshman), you should seriously think about what your situation (I'm talking only about athletics here, putting academics aside for a moment because the latter is going to be the priority-or should be as we all know-regardless of whether one decides to "Stay the Course" for next years or "hang up their cleats" (or turf shoes ;)) and call it a career. That would include talking with the coaches in an honest discussion of what the player's status and expectations are by the coaching staff.  Yet, there are obviously many, many examples of players who have stuck it out after 2 or even 3 years of extremely limited p.t. and have gone on to a great success story in their last two years or final year.  Certainly, that is a decision that only the player can make for himself after serious reflection, although we all know it is not a easy process to go through and make whatever decision is the final result either way.

Apologies for the long dissertation on what started as a simple discussion about JV programs in DIII, However, I believe, as I"m sure all you do, it is an important one with regard to DIII.  Thanks for everyone's input, I enjoyed reading your opinions.

Edit: Done for spelling and sentence structure corrections. ::) ;D
"When the Great Scorer comes To mark against your name, He'll write not 'won' or 'lost', But how you played the game." - Grantland Rice