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usee

Keith- interesting "what if" debate going on in the WIAC room. The basic question is "if platteville runs the table as the 2nd place team, what does that do to your conference rankings, if anything?

K-Mack

Quote from: 108Vincent on October 17, 2010, 05:41:45 PM
This might not be the best place to post this, but I just read the Dave DeLand article you had a link to about SJU/What D3 is and isn't, and I wanted to add some thoughts.  Yesterday, I spent $10 to take a family of four to a good, quality football game between Ohio Northern and Baldwin-Wallace.  My wife and daughters don't get as much out of the game as I do, but they think the pep band is great.  All in all, it was a really nice Saturday afternoon for everyone.

In contrast, my buddy (who I consider a D3 convert) is a longtime UGA fan.  He was able to get tickets to a game in Athens, but the cost was fairly substantial (more than $10).  It was difficult to see much action on the field, so he spent most of the game looking at the Jumbo-tron.  There were a good number of drunk students in his seating section, one of whom vomited on the steps next to him.  He was also a little annoyed with the number of TV-timeouts.  There is something to be said for witnessing the spectacle of an event that draws 80K, but he probably won't make the effort to attend another Dawgs game anytime soon.

So if you're a fan of the game of football, I think the question is, do you want to see a good football game or do you want to see the spectacle of a football game?  The more true fans of the game become aware of what D3 offers, the more I think they'll choose the former.

First, it most certainly is. A lot of good over the years has come from this being the catch-all board.

Second, I try not to get into DI vs. DIII wars, as fans of football enjoy both. But you make a very strong case for the DIII game -- more game, less pomp. (can you have pomp without circumstance?) I also pay less and less attention to DI largely because of the fact that I don't care about what they're playing for. They might as well be a random series of exhibitions, as I have no love for the way they choose to decide a champion.

That's beside your original point, but "care" or lack of it is one reason I think people don't get into D-III until they know someone affiliated with the team or school itself, whereas people in say, Alabama, are raised rooting for Alabama or Auburn even if mom went to Birmingham-Southern and Dad never attended college. There's got to be some intial connection -- be it knowing someone who plays or coaches, being part of the community or whatever -- but usually when people find D3 they end up loving it, for a lot of the reasons you mentioned.

Your football-per-dollar is probably greatest at our level -- the plays of the week are a great reminder that you see standout plays in every game.

But on the flipside, I wonder how I'd react if someone told me I'd get more football per dollar watching the CFL instead of my beloved NFL.

Great post either way.

. I do think the experience per dollar spent --
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
Managing Editor, Kickoff
Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
Nastradamus, Triple Take
and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.

K-Mack

Quote from: USee on October 18, 2010, 11:44:10 PM
Keith- interesting "what if" debate going on in the WIAC room. The basic question is "if platteville runs the table as the 2nd place team, what does that do to your conference rankings, if anything?

I don't know off top, I'd probably be wise to read all the points you're making.

My intial thoughts are that I'd probably still like to see a CCIW team get to Salem before putting it up there with WIAC and OAC, but then again, back in the early days, we never let lack of a championship contender stop the WIAC from being No. 1 because of its competitive depth, which is very similar to the CCIW right now.

Its also fair to wonder how the CCIW would do if it didn't have to go through MUC all the time. But those are long-term historical questions.

For this year alone, I'd say the 51-20 Wheaton win over Platteville would be a pretty compelling point for the CCIW if both teams finish second. Would we then go down the line and see who would beat who 1 vs. 1 through 8 vs. 8?

Could the CCIW simply leapfrog the OAC on the basis of overall depth? Very possible.

I imagine these are some of the points being made. I'll check it out later.
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
Managing Editor, Kickoff
Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
Nastradamus, Triple Take
and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.

Mr. Ypsi

Quote from: K-Mack on October 20, 2010, 03:54:21 PM
Quote from: USee on October 18, 2010, 11:44:10 PM
Keith- interesting "what if" debate going on in the WIAC room. The basic question is "if platteville runs the table as the 2nd place team, what does that do to your conference rankings, if anything?

I don't know off top, I'd probably be wise to read all the points you're making.

My intial thoughts are that I'd probably still like to see a CCIW team get to Salem before putting it up there with WIAC and OAC, but then again, back in the early days, we never let lack of a championship contender stop the WIAC from being No. 1 because of its competitive depth, which is very similar to the CCIW right now.

Its also fair to wonder how the CCIW would do if it didn't have to go through MUC all the time. But those are long-term historical questions.

For this year alone, I'd say the 51-20 Wheaton win over Platteville would be a pretty compelling point for the CCIW if both teams finish second. Would we then go down the line and see who would beat who 1 vs. 1 through 8 vs. 8?

Could the CCIW simply leapfrog the OAC on the basis of overall depth? Very possible.

I imagine these are some of the points being made. I'll check it out later.

If you're gonna talk 'long-term' history, don't forget Augie's four consecutive titles! ;D

You are so right about the Mount Union (and, lately, UWW) barrier.  The ONLY time in the last decade+ that neither UMU or UWW was in the North, Wheaton won it.  In fact, Wheaton has NEVER lost a playoff game to a team not named Mount Union.  IF all the stars align this year, perhaps UMU will 'go east' and UWW will not be imported to supplant NCC or Wheaton as the #1 in 'the north'.

108Vincent

Quote from: K-Mack on October 20, 2010, 03:48:48 PM
But on the flipside, I wonder how I'd react if someone told me I'd get more football per dollar watching the CFL instead of my beloved NFL.


So, I guess I'll keep my anti-NFL rant to myself  :).  i'm also a DI fan - a Buckeye for life, and I'd like to someday make a trip to Columbus to witness the spectacle, but given the cost and logistics, I don't know when that would happen.  I've been to three ONU games this year because they're the closest to where I live and I know I'm going to see quality football, but I'm actually a covert Mount Union guy.  As much as I can, I try to follow and support my local d3 program which was Shenandoah when we were in VA and Wheaton when we were in IL. 

ADL70

Keith

For the year-end feature on unique occurrences, six different players scored CWRU's six Tds in the Spartans' 41-0 win over Hiram.  For two, it was their first of the year.  For another two, the first of their career.
SPARTANS...PREPARE FOR GLORY
HA-WOO, HA-WOO, HA-WOO
Think beyond the possible.
Compete, Win, Respect, Unite

BoBo

Quote from: K-Mack on October 20, 2010, 03:54:21 PM
Quote from: USee on October 18, 2010, 11:44:10 PM
Keith- interesting "what if" debate going on in the WIAC room. The basic question is "if platteville runs the table as the 2nd place team, what does that do to your conference rankings, if anything?

I don't know off top, I'd probably be wise to read all the points you're making.

My intial thoughts are that I'd probably still like to see a CCIW team get to Salem before putting it up there with WIAC and OAC, but then again, back in the early days, we never let lack of a championship contender stop the WIAC from being No. 1 because of its competitive depth, which is very similar to the CCIW right now.

Its also fair to wonder how the CCIW would do if it didn't have to go through MUC all the time. But those are long-term historical questions.

For this year alone, I'd say the 51-20 Wheaton win over Platteville would be a pretty compelling point for the CCIW if both teams finish second. Would we then go down the line and see who would beat who 1 vs. 1 through 8 vs. 8?

Could the CCIW simply leapfrog the OAC on the basis of overall depth? Very possible.

I imagine these are some of the points being made. I'll check it out later.

If Wheaton and Platteville finish 2nd in the CCIW and WIAC, respectively, that would probably place North Central 1st in the CCIW & UW-EC 3rd place or below in the WIAC. The fact that NCC could only get past EC 20-6 should also have some influence on the decision making process, right?  ;)  Most of the WIAC posters acknowledge the fine job the Pioneers have done recently, but consider 3 out of the final 4 games as difficult ones for them. They maybe in a 3-way tie for 2nd at the moment, but few expect them to finish in that position.
I'VE REACHED THAT AGE
WHERE MY BRAIN GOES
FROM "YOU PROBABLY
SHOULDN'T SAY THAT," TO
"WHAT THE HELL, LET'S SEE
WHAT HAPPENS."

usee

I was not implying I thought the CCIW is a better conference. I am not sure there is any evidence of that. I agree with BoBo in that I will be very surprised if UWP finishes 2nd in their conference. I also don't think the 20-6 score vs UWEC has any meaning other than to prove NCC has a dominant defense. The NCC offense is young and will continue to get better every week (unfortunately). This is a much different NCC team than years past when they played decent defense behind a dominant offense and then in the playoffs they faced great defense and good offenses. If you play championship caliber defense you will have a chance come playoff time. (see Wittenberg in 2009).

K-Mack

Quote from: ADL70 on October 20, 2010, 07:11:47 PM
Keith

For the year-end feature on unique occurrences, six different players scored CWRU's six Tds in the Spartans' 41-0 win over Hiram.  For two, it was their first of the year.  For another two, the first of their career.

Noted.
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
Managing Editor, Kickoff
Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
Nastradamus, Triple Take
and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.

108Vincent

RE: Today's column on keeping focus.  We fans tend to sometimes forget the academic pressures on the players.  No breaks are given to D3 student-athletes and sometimes they receive additional scrutiny from faculty.  A friend that was a starter on a championship team once confided that, given his heavy course load that semester, he was continually conflicted between wanting to get to Salem and wishing it was all over with.

ADL70

Quote from: K-Mack on October 21, 2010, 05:55:53 PM
Quote from: ADL70 on October 20, 2010, 07:11:47 PM
Keith

For the year-end feature on unique occurrences, six different players scored CWRU's six Tds in the Spartans' 41-0 win over Hiram.  For two, it was their first of the year.  For another two, the first of their career.

Noted.

My error Keith, it 2 firs of the year 3 first of their careers (1 Fr and 2 who switched from D to O)
SPARTANS...PREPARE FOR GLORY
HA-WOO, HA-WOO, HA-WOO
Think beyond the possible.
Compete, Win, Respect, Unite

K-Mack

Quote from: 108Vincent on October 20, 2010, 06:22:55 PM
Quote from: K-Mack on October 20, 2010, 03:48:48 PM
But on the flipside, I wonder how I'd react if someone told me I'd get more football per dollar watching the CFL instead of my beloved NFL.


So, I guess I'll keep my anti-NFL rant to myself  :).  i'm also a DI fan - a Buckeye for life, and I'd like to someday make a trip to Columbus to witness the spectacle, but given the cost and logistics, I don't know when that would happen.  I've been to three ONU games this year because they're the closest to where I live and I know I'm going to see quality football, but I'm actually a covert Mount Union guy.  As much as I can, I try to follow and support my local d3 program which was Shenandoah when we were in VA and Wheaton when we were in IL. 

What's taking you all over the place?
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
Managing Editor, Kickoff
Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
Nastradamus, Triple Take
and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.

K-Mack

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 20, 2010, 04:20:19 PMIF all the stars align this year, perhaps UMU will 'go east' and UWW will not be imported to supplant NCC or Wheaton as the #1 in 'the north'.

So early for possible No. 1 scenarios, but I can't help myself.

It all depends on how many Eastern (and southern and far Western) teams are in the 32, and how they balance out. But some thoughts:

Montclair State and St. John Fisher have dibs on the East's No. 1. Mount Union has never been moved in over a 10-0 East team from a top conference.

Keep in mind Wesley could be a No. 1 in the East. Upstate NY and Ohio are a more likely marriage I guess, but technically, Wesley could serve that purpose. Or lose to Salisbury and not be a No. 1 at all.

I guess if that happened, UMHB would have to be the South No. 1 and Wesley the East No. 1.

If someone makes Mount Union be King of the East again, my guess is blame St. Thomas. (And NJAC/E8.) Assuming they beat Bethel this Saturday.

This is a future ATN topic.
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
Managing Editor, Kickoff
Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
Nastradamus, Triple Take
and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.

Mr. Ypsi

Agreed that it is awfully early for playoff speculation, but I, too, can't resist!

IF they finish 10-0, I gotta think the NCC/Wheaton winner deserves a #1.  Since the selection committee seems now to go with four #1s (rather than traditional regions), I can't see anyone in the 'east' who would deserve a spot over UWW, UMU, Wesley, UMHB, and NCC/Wheaton (with Witt and St. Thomas as wild cards to 'the party') - admittedly, that is still far too many for all to get a #1 seed!

Perhaps we should resume this in a couple of weeks! ;)

K-Mack

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on October 21, 2010, 09:24:15 PMIF they finish 10-0, I gotta think the NCC/Wheaton winner deserves a #1.  Since the selection committee seems now to go with four #1s (rather than traditional regions), I can't see anyone in the 'east' who would deserve a spot over UWW, UMU, Wesley, UMHB, and NCC/Wheaton (with Witt and St. Thomas as wild cards to 'the party') - admittedly, that is still far too many for all to get a #1 seed!

I don't think that's quite how the committee's operate though. It's not so much seeking a definitive 1 through 4 but seeking a top-8-to-10 team worth building a bracket around. If an east team from the NJAC or Empire 8 were undefeated, and in some years the MAC or LL, it would almost always get a chance to be a No. 1.

Each year MUC has been the "East" No. 1, it's been in the absence of another undefeated team that stacks up well on the critieria and is within 500 miles of at least six eastern teams :D

I bought in heavily to North Central two years ago, but I don't know that the CCIW champ has much of a shot at the fourth No. 1 this year. Would put St. Thomas at the front of that line if we're talking sheer worthiness to date, and also, let's see how the CCIW and MIAC shake out. (ASC looks like a good bet to let UMHB go 10-0, though not sure how nationally dangerous they'll be this year)
Former author, Around the Nation ('01-'13)
Managing Editor, Kickoff
Voter, Top 25/Play of the Week/Gagliardi Trophy/Liberty Mutual Coach of the Year
Nastradamus, Triple Take
and one of the two voices behind the sonic #d3fb nerdery that is the ATN Podcast.