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D3soccer.com => Men's soccer => Topic started by: Flying Weasel on March 26, 2018, 10:13:20 PM

Title: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on March 26, 2018, 10:13:20 PM
I figured with schedules and recruiting classes being released, discussion from this point forward will be focused more on the coming season than on last season, so it made sense to create a new thread for the 2018 season.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on March 26, 2018, 10:37:34 PM
Messiah's 2018 schedule has been announced: http://gomessiah.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=232&path=msoc

Messiah - 2018 Non-Conference Schedule
8/31 (H) Cortland State (16-4-0, SUNYAC 1st, NCAA 2nd Rnd)
9/1 (H) Whitworth (10-8-1, NWC T-4th)
9/5 (H) Hartwick [Div. I] (7-9-2, Sun Belt 4th)
9/8 (A) Montclair State (13-7-1, NJAC 3rd)
9/12 (A) Dickinson (11-7-3, Centennial 5th, NCAA 1st Rnd)
9/15 (H) Eastern Mennonite (10-7-0, ODAC 8th)
9/19 (H) York (7-8-3, CAC 4th)
9/22 (A) Misericordia (3-14-1, Freedom 6th)
9/26 (H) Elizabethtown (10-7-2, Landmark 2nd)
10/1 (A) Johns Hopkins (16-1-4, Centennial 1st, NCAA Sweet 16)

Dropped from non-conference schedule: Chapman, Mary Washington, Haverford, Rowan

Added to non-conference schedule: Cortland State, Whitworth, Hartwick, Eastern Mennonite

Kept on non-conference schedule: Montclair State, Dickinson, York, Misericordia, Elizabethtown, Johns Hopkins
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on March 27, 2018, 06:59:32 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on March 26, 2018, 10:37:34 PM
Messiah's 2018 schedule has been announced: http://gomessiah.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=232&path=msoc

Messiah - 2018 Non-Conference Schedule
8/31 (H) Cortland State (16-4-0, SUNYAC 1st, NCAA 2nd Rnd)
9/1 (H) Whitworth (10-8-1, NWC T-4th)
9/5 (H) Hartwick [Div. I] (7-9-2, Sun Belt 4th)
9/8 (A) Montclair State (13-7-1, NJAC 3rd)
9/12 (A) Dickinson (11-7-3, Centennial 5th, NCAA 1st Rnd)
9/15 (H) Eastern Mennonite (10-7-0, ODAC 8th)
9/19 (H) York (7-8-3, CAC 4th)
9/22 (A) Misericordia (3-14-1, Freedom 6th)
9/26 (H) Elizabethtown (10-7-2, Landmark 2nd)
10/1 (A) Johns Hopkins (16-1-4, Centennial 1st, NCAA Sweet 16)

Dropped from non-conference schedule: Chapman, Mary Washington, Haverford, Rowan

Added to non-conference schedule: Cortland State, Whitworth, Hartwick, Eastern Mennonite

Kept on non-conference schedule: Montclair State, York, Misericordia, Elizabethtown, Johns Hopkins

Dickinson is also kept on non conference schedule
How many of these were regionally ranked in last ranking last year? 
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on March 27, 2018, 12:16:25 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on March 26, 2018, 10:37:34 PM
Messiah's 2018 schedule has been announced: http://gomessiah.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=232&path=msoc

Messiah - 2018 Non-Conference Schedule
8/31 (H) Cortland State (16-4-0, SUNYAC 1st, NCAA 2nd Rnd)
9/1 (H) Whitworth (10-8-1, NWC T-4th)
9/5 (H) Hartwick [Div. I] (7-9-2, Sun Belt 4th)
9/8 (A) Montclair State (13-7-1, NJAC 3rd)
9/12 (A) Dickinson (11-7-3, Centennial 5th, NCAA 1st Rnd)
9/15 (H) Eastern Mennonite (10-7-0, ODAC 8th)
9/19 (H) York (7-8-3, CAC 4th)
9/22 (A) Misericordia (3-14-1, Freedom 6th)
9/26 (H) Elizabethtown (10-7-2, Landmark 2nd)
10/1 (A) Johns Hopkins (16-1-4, Centennial 1st, NCAA Sweet 16)

Dropped from non-conference schedule: Chapman, Mary Washington, Haverford, Rowan

Added to non-conference schedule: Cortland State, Whitworth, Hartwick, Eastern Mennonite

Kept on non-conference schedule: Montclair State, Dickinson, York, Misericordia, Elizabethtown, Johns Hopkins


This is an example of how much praise on these boards I have given McCarty over the years for challenging his teams with solid Out of Conference scheduling. That was something that bothered me about Brandt. He usually had an extremely weak non-conference schedule and never challenged his teams out of conference. For the amount of talent Brandt's team had and for the fact that Messiah's league during most of his tenure was relatively weak except maybe Etown and Arcadia he would of been able to schedule anyone anywhere and still would have won his league. I guess it turned out to not matter anyway but from a distance it was head scratching.

As for this year it looks to me McCarty's schedule is pretty solid but might be a bit of a drop compared to last years. Hartwick will be a complete unknown but I have no idea why Haverford was dropped. That is a solid game for both teams. Still a schedule by the looks of it to be a .580-.590 SOS by November.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on March 27, 2018, 11:31:26 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on March 27, 2018, 12:16:25 PMThis is an example of how much praise on these boards I have given McCarty over the years for challenging his teams with solid Out of Conference scheduling. That was something that bothered me about Brandt. He usually had an extremely weak non-conference schedule and never challenged his teams out of conference. For the amount of talent Brandt's team had and for the fact that Messiah's league during most of his tenure was relatively weak except maybe Etown and Arcadia he would of been able to schedule anyone anywhere and still would have won his league. I guess it turned out to not matter anyway but from a distance it was head scratching.

Messiah's 2018 schedule does appear to be clearly weaker than last years schedule.  However, if you consider their 2018 schedule to be solid and compliment Coach McCarty for it, then I wonder how you can say that Coach Brandt usually had weak non-conference schedules?  The 2006 non-conference schedule was horrible, no doubt about that, but most other years would have been comparable or better than the 2018 schedule.  Here are Messiah's non-conference opponents from the year after their second title thru to Brandt's final season showing each opponents' previous year's record and the given year's record.  Which of these years contribute to "usually" having a weak non-conference schedule"?

2003
Stevens (17-4-2, ECAC Champ)(19-2-2, Skyline Champs, NCAA)
Richard Stockton (18-5-0, NJAC Champs, NCAA's)(14-8-2, NJAC #1 Seed)
Chris. Newport (10-8-1, USA South #1 Seed)(12-5-3, USA South #1 Seed)
Muhlenberg (13-8-0)(17-5-1, Centennial Champs, NCAA's)
York (10-9-2)(15-7-1)
Mary Washington (14-2-3, CAC #1 Seed)(8-5-4)
Gettysburg (12-4-3)(10-7-1)
McDaniel (6-9-2)(15-8-1)

2004
Wheaton-Ill. (16-4-2, CCIW Champ, NCAA's)(18-5-0, CCIW Runner-up, NCAA's)
Arcadia (14-5-1, PAC Runner-Up)(16-3-4, PAC Champs, NCAA's)
Chris. Newport (12-5-3, USA South #1 Seed)(11-7-2)
Muhlenberg (17-5-1, Centennial Champs, NCAA's)(9-7-3)
Roanoke (10-5-2)(12-7-2, ODAC Champs, NCAA's)
McDaniel (15-8-1)(11-7-3, Centennial Runner-Up)
Gettysburg (10-7-1)(9-7-1)
Mary Washington (8-5-4)(8-9-2)

2005
Stevens (21-2-1, Skyline Champ, NCAA Sweet 16)(16-4-2, Skyline Champ, NCAA Sweet 16)
York (16-5-0)(18-2-3, CAC Champ, NCAA's)
Arcadia (16-3-4, PAC Champs, NCAA's)(13-4-3, PAC Runner-Up)
McDaniel (11-7-3, Centennial Runner-Up)(14-4-3, Centennial #1 Seed, NCAA's)
Roanoke (12-7-2, ODAC Champs, NCAA's)(8-7-0)
Gettysburg (9-7-1)(8-7-5)
St. Mary's (7-8-3)(12-7-1)
Marymount (7-10-1)(8-9-2)

2006
York (18-2-3, CAC Champ, NCAA's)(21-0-3, CAC Champ, NCAA Sweet 16)
McDaniel (14-4-3, Centennial #1 Seed, NCAA's)(9-9-0)
Kean (8-8-5)(10-8-5)
Roanoke (8-7-0)(9-8-1)
Cortland St. (10-8-1)(7-9-3)
St. Mary's (12-7-1)(7-10-2)
Wilkes (10-7-2)(12-6-1)
Lycoming (14-6-0)(6-8-3)

2007
York (21-0-3, CAC Champ, NCAA Sweet 16)(23-3-1, NCAA Elite 8)
Wheaton-Ill. (16-8-4, CCIW Champ, NCAA Runner-Up)(14-7-1, CCIW Champ, NCAA's)
Chris. Newport (15-5-2, USA-South #1 Seed, NCAA's)(11-7-0)
Gettysburg (12-6-4)(12-7-1, Centennial Runner-Up)
Greensboro (11-9-2)(14-5-3, USA South Champ, NCAA's)
DeSales (13-5-3, MAC-Freedom Champs, NCAA's)(10-10-2, MAC-Freedom Champs)
Roanoke (9-8-1)(12-8-2, ODAC Runner-Up)
TCNJ (7-8-1)(10-6-3)

2008
York (23-3-1, CAC Runner-Up, NCAA Elite 8)(18-0-2, CAC #1 Seed, NCAA's)
Wheaton-Ill. (14-7-1, CCIW Champ, NCAA's)(15-4-3, CCIW Champ, NCAA's)
Dickinson (13-3-3, NCAA's)(13-5-3)
Gettysburg (12-7-1, Centennial Runner-Up)(9-5-4)
TCNJ (10-6-3)(9-9-2)
Kean (9-10-0)(7-12-1)
DeSales (10-10-2, MAC-Freedom Champs)(6-12-1)
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on March 28, 2018, 09:05:21 AM
I love that Hartwick scheduled Messiah and I'd be curious to see who else they're picking up out of conference.  I would imagine Oneonta, which is another great measuring stick. Would love to see St. Lawrence too. 
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on March 28, 2018, 11:04:09 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on March 27, 2018, 11:31:26 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on March 27, 2018, 12:16:25 PMThis is an example of how much praise on these boards I have given McCarty over the years for challenging his teams with solid Out of Conference scheduling. That was something that bothered me about Brandt. He usually had an extremely weak non-conference schedule and never challenged his teams out of conference. For the amount of talent Brandt's team had and for the fact that Messiah's league during most of his tenure was relatively weak except maybe Etown and Arcadia he would of been able to schedule anyone anywhere and still would have won his league. I guess it turned out to not matter anyway but from a distance it was head scratching.

Messiah's 2018 schedule does appear to be clearly weaker than last years schedule.  However, if you consider their 2018 schedule to be solid and compliment Coach McCarty for it, then I wonder how you can say that Coach Brandt usually had weak non-conference schedules?  The 2006 non-conference schedule was horrible, no doubt about that, but most other years would have been comparable or better than the 2018 schedule.  Here are Messiah's non-conference opponents from the year after their second title thru to Brandt's final season showing each opponents' previous year's record and the given year's record.  Which of these years contribute to "usually" having a weak non-conference schedule"?

2003
Stevens (17-4-2, ECAC Champ)(19-2-2, Skyline Champs, NCAA)
Richard Stockton (18-5-0, NJAC Champs, NCAA's)(14-8-2, NJAC #1 Seed)
Chris. Newport (10-8-1, USA South #1 Seed)(12-5-3, USA South #1 Seed)
Muhlenberg (13-8-0)(17-5-1, Centennial Champs, NCAA's)
York (10-9-2)(15-7-1)
Mary Washington (14-2-3, CAC #1 Seed)(8-5-4)
Gettysburg (12-4-3)(10-7-1)
McDaniel (6-9-2)(15-8-1)

2004
Wheaton-Ill. (16-4-2, CCIW Champ, NCAA's)(18-5-0, CCIW Runner-up, NCAA's)
Arcadia (14-5-1, PAC Runner-Up)(16-3-4, PAC Champs, NCAA's)
Chris. Newport (12-5-3, USA South #1 Seed)(11-7-2)
Muhlenberg (17-5-1, Centennial Champs, NCAA's)(9-7-3)
Roanoke (10-5-2)(12-7-2, ODAC Champs, NCAA's)
McDaniel (15-8-1)(11-7-3, Centennial Runner-Up)
Gettysburg (10-7-1)(9-7-1)
Mary Washington (8-5-4)(8-9-2)

2005
Stevens (21-2-1, Skyline Champ, NCAA Sweet 16)(16-4-2, Skyline Champ, NCAA Sweet 16)
York (16-5-0)(18-2-3, CAC Champ, NCAA's)
Arcadia (16-3-4, PAC Champs, NCAA's)(13-4-3, PAC Runner-Up)
McDaniel (11-7-3, Centennial Runner-Up)(14-4-3, Centennial #1 Seed, NCAA's)
Roanoke (12-7-2, ODAC Champs, NCAA's)(8-7-0)
Gettysburg (9-7-1)(8-7-5)
St. Mary's (7-8-3)(12-7-1)
Marymount (7-10-1)(8-9-2)

2006
York (18-2-3, CAC Champ, NCAA's)(21-0-3, CAC Champ, NCAA Sweet 16)
McDaniel (14-4-3, Centennial #1 Seed, NCAA's)(9-9-0)
Kean (8-8-5)(10-8-5)
Roanoke (8-7-0)(9-8-1)
Cortland St. (10-8-1)(7-9-3)
St. Mary's (12-7-1)(7-10-2)
Wilkes (10-7-2)(12-6-1)
Lycoming (14-6-0)(6-8-3)

2007
York (21-0-3, CAC Champ, NCAA Sweet 16)(23-3-1, NCAA Elite 8)
Wheaton-Ill. (16-8-4, CCIW Champ, NCAA Runner-Up)(14-7-1, CCIW Champ, NCAA's)
Chris. Newport (15-5-2, USA-South #1 Seed, NCAA's)(11-7-0)
Gettysburg (12-6-4)(12-7-1, Centennial Runner-Up)
Greensboro (11-9-2)(14-5-3, USA South Champ, NCAA's)
DeSales (13-5-3, MAC-Freedom Champs, NCAA's)(10-10-2, MAC-Freedom Champs)
Roanoke (9-8-1)(12-8-2, ODAC Runner-Up)
TCNJ (7-8-1)(10-6-3)

2008
York (23-3-1, CAC Runner-Up, NCAA Elite 8)(18-0-2, CAC #1 Seed, NCAA's)
Wheaton-Ill. (14-7-1, CCIW Champ, NCAA's)(15-4-3, CCIW Champ, NCAA's)
Dickinson (13-3-3, NCAA's)(13-5-3)
Gettysburg (12-7-1, Centennial Runner-Up)(9-5-4)
TCNJ (10-6-3)(9-9-2)
Kean (9-10-0)(7-12-1)
DeSales (10-10-2, MAC-Freedom Champs)(6-12-1)


Great post by Flying Weasel and I have to agree with his conclusion based on his thorough research.

As for Mr.Right...I'll go with a quote from W. Edwards Deming..."Without data you're just another person with an opinion."
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on March 28, 2018, 11:10:44 PM
Chicago's schedule: http://athletics.uchicago.edu/sports/msoc/2018-19/schedule

It's loaded.  Trinity (Tx.), North Park, Loras, and Calvin in their non-conference schedule on top of the ever-deep and competitive UAA slate.

Non-conference schedule
9/1 (A) Trinity (Tx.)
9/3 (N) TBD (at Trinity (Tx.)
9/5 (A) Benedictine (Ill.)
9/8 (A) North Park
9/12 (H) Wheaton (Ill.)
9/15 (H) Loras
9/16 (H) Macalester
9/19 (H) Carroll (Wis.)
9/22 (A) Calvin
10/17 (H) Carthage
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on March 28, 2018, 11:39:59 PM
Ohio Wesleyan's schedule:  http://www.battlingbishops.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=226

A disappointing pair of opponents (Waynesburg, Hanover) for their own invitational. But solid opening weekend out at Wheaton and then they play the best of the OAC before NCAC play begins.

Non-conference schedule
8/31 (N) Washington U. (at Wheaton-Ill.)  [Bob Baptista Invitational]
9/1 (A) Wheaton (Ill.)  [Bob Baptista Invitational]
9/7 (H) Waynesburg  [Fred Myers Invitational]
9/8 (H) Hanover  [Fred Myers Invitational]
9/12 (H) Ohio Northern
9/15 (H) John Carroll
9/19 (A) Otterbein
9/26 (A) Capital
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on March 28, 2018, 11:40:48 PM
Wheaton (Ill.)'s schedule: http://athletics.wheaton.edu/schedule.aspx?schedule=243&path=msoccer

Non-conference schedule
8/31 (H) Benedictine
9/1 (H) Ohio Wesleyan
9/5 (A) Albion
9/10 (H) Concordia-Chicago
9/12 (A) Chicago
9/15 (A) Luther
9/17 (H) Aurora
9/19 (H) Lake Forest
9/22 (A) Washington U.
10/20 (A) UW-Whitewater
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on March 29, 2018, 12:11:02 AM
Loras' 2018 schedule: http://duhawks.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=1198

Non-conference schedule
8/31 (A) Elmhurst
9/8 (H) St. Olaf
9/15 (N) Chicago (at Carthage)
9/16 (A) Carthage
9/19 (A) St. Mary's (Minn.)
9/26 (H) Iowa Wesleayn
10/1 (A) UW-Whitewater
10/9 (A) UW-Platteville
10/18 (A) Knox
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on March 29, 2018, 12:22:21 AM
Some of the 2018 schedules that are out there . . .

Albion: http://www.gobrits.com/sports/msoc/2018-19/schedule
Alfred State: http://www.alfredstateathletics.com/sports/msoc/2018-19/schedule
Augsburg: http://athletics.augsburg.edu/schedule.aspx?schedule=793
Aurora: http://athletics.aurora.edu/schedule.aspx?path=msoc
Bethany Lutheran: http://www.blcvikings.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=206
Chicago: http://athletics.uchicago.edu/sports/msoc/2018-19/schedule
Concordia-Chicago: http://cucougars.com/schedule.aspx?path=msoc
Concordia (Wisc.): http://www.cuwfalcons.com/sports/msoc/2018-19/schedule
Concordia-Moorhead: http://concordiamn.prestosports.com/sports/msoc/2018-19/schedule
Edgewood: http://edgewoodcollegeeagles.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=227
Elmhurst: https://elmhurstbluejays.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=219&path=msoc
Ferrum: http://www.ferrumpanthers.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=235&path=msoc
Loras: http://duhawks.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=1198
Lycoming: http://athletics.lycoming.edu/schedule.aspx?schedule=744&path=msoc
Martin Luther: http://mlcknights.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=134&path=msoc
Messiah: http://gomessiah.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=232&path=msoc
Minn.-Morris: http://morriscougars.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=1217
Muskingum: http://www.fightingmuskies.com/sports/msoc/2018-19/schedule
Nebraska Wesleyan: https://nwusports.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=196&path=msoc
North Central: https://www.northcentralcardinals.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=221&path=msoc
Ohio Northern: http://www.onusports.com/sports/msoc/2018-19/schedule
Ohio Wesleyan: http://www.battlingbishops.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=226
Olivet: http://www.olivetcomets.com/sports/msoc/2018-19/schedule
Rockford: http://goregents.com/sports/msoc/2018-19/schedule
Rose-Hulman: http://athletics.rose-hulman.edu/sports/msoc/2018-19/schedule
Shenandoah: http://www.suhornets.com/sports/msoc/2018-19/schedule
St. John's (Minn.): http://www.gojohnnies.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=273&path=msoc
St. Mary's (Minn.): http://www.saintmaryssports.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=565
St. Olaf: http://athletics.stolaf.edu/schedule.aspx?schedule=777
UW-Platteville: http://athletics.uwplatt.edu/sports/msoc/2018-19/schedule
UW-Whitewater: http://www.uwwsports.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=509&path=msoc
Wheaton (Ill.): http://athletics.wheaton.edu/schedule.aspx?schedule=243&path=msoccer
Wis. Lutheran: http://wlcsports.com/sports/msoc/2018-19/schedule
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: truenorth on March 29, 2018, 08:41:31 AM
Looks like a midwestern slant to the colleges releasing schedules this early...
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 1970s NESCAC Player on March 29, 2018, 09:32:15 AM
Quote from: truenorth on March 29, 2018, 08:41:31 AM
Looks like a midwestern slant to the colleges releasing schedules this early...

NESCAC typically last (or close to it) . . .
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on March 29, 2018, 11:05:32 AM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on March 28, 2018, 11:04:09 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on March 27, 2018, 11:31:26 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on March 27, 2018, 12:16:25 PMThis is an example of how much praise on these boards I have given McCarty over the years for challenging his teams with solid Out of Conference scheduling. That was something that bothered me about Brandt. He usually had an extremely weak non-conference schedule and never challenged his teams out of conference. For the amount of talent Brandt's team had and for the fact that Messiah's league during most of his tenure was relatively weak except maybe Etown and Arcadia he would of been able to schedule anyone anywhere and still would have won his league. I guess it turned out to not matter anyway but from a distance it was head scratching.

Messiah's 2018 schedule does appear to be clearly weaker than last years schedule.  However, if you consider their 2018 schedule to be solid and compliment Coach McCarty for it, then I wonder how you can say that Coach Brandt usually had weak non-conference schedules?  The 2006 non-conference schedule was horrible, no doubt about that, but most other years would have been comparable or better than the 2018 schedule.  Here are Messiah's non-conference opponents from the year after their second title thru to Brandt's final season showing each opponents' previous year's record and the given year's record.  Which of these years contribute to "usually" having a weak non-conference schedule"?

2003
Stevens (17-4-2, ECAC Champ)(19-2-2, Skyline Champs, NCAA)
Richard Stockton (18-5-0, NJAC Champs, NCAA's)(14-8-2, NJAC #1 Seed)
Chris. Newport (10-8-1, USA South #1 Seed)(12-5-3, USA South #1 Seed)
Muhlenberg (13-8-0)(17-5-1, Centennial Champs, NCAA's)
York (10-9-2)(15-7-1)
Mary Washington (14-2-3, CAC #1 Seed)(8-5-4)
Gettysburg (12-4-3)(10-7-1)
McDaniel (6-9-2)(15-8-1)

2004
Wheaton-Ill. (16-4-2, CCIW Champ, NCAA's)(18-5-0, CCIW Runner-up, NCAA's)
Arcadia (14-5-1, PAC Runner-Up)(16-3-4, PAC Champs, NCAA's)
Chris. Newport (12-5-3, USA South #1 Seed)(11-7-2)
Muhlenberg (17-5-1, Centennial Champs, NCAA's)(9-7-3)
Roanoke (10-5-2)(12-7-2, ODAC Champs, NCAA's)
McDaniel (15-8-1)(11-7-3, Centennial Runner-Up)
Gettysburg (10-7-1)(9-7-1)
Mary Washington (8-5-4)(8-9-2)

2005
Stevens (21-2-1, Skyline Champ, NCAA Sweet 16)(16-4-2, Skyline Champ, NCAA Sweet 16)
York (16-5-0)(18-2-3, CAC Champ, NCAA's)
Arcadia (16-3-4, PAC Champs, NCAA's)(13-4-3, PAC Runner-Up)
McDaniel (11-7-3, Centennial Runner-Up)(14-4-3, Centennial #1 Seed, NCAA's)
Roanoke (12-7-2, ODAC Champs, NCAA's)(8-7-0)
Gettysburg (9-7-1)(8-7-5)
St. Mary's (7-8-3)(12-7-1)
Marymount (7-10-1)(8-9-2)

2006
York (18-2-3, CAC Champ, NCAA's)(21-0-3, CAC Champ, NCAA Sweet 16)
McDaniel (14-4-3, Centennial #1 Seed, NCAA's)(9-9-0)
Kean (8-8-5)(10-8-5)
Roanoke (8-7-0)(9-8-1)
Cortland St. (10-8-1)(7-9-3)
St. Mary's (12-7-1)(7-10-2)
Wilkes (10-7-2)(12-6-1)
Lycoming (14-6-0)(6-8-3)

2007
York (21-0-3, CAC Champ, NCAA Sweet 16)(23-3-1, NCAA Elite 8)
Wheaton-Ill. (16-8-4, CCIW Champ, NCAA Runner-Up)(14-7-1, CCIW Champ, NCAA's)
Chris. Newport (15-5-2, USA-South #1 Seed, NCAA's)(11-7-0)
Gettysburg (12-6-4)(12-7-1, Centennial Runner-Up)
Greensboro (11-9-2)(14-5-3, USA South Champ, NCAA's)
DeSales (13-5-3, MAC-Freedom Champs, NCAA's)(10-10-2, MAC-Freedom Champs)
Roanoke (9-8-1)(12-8-2, ODAC Runner-Up)
TCNJ (7-8-1)(10-6-3)

2008
York (23-3-1, CAC Runner-Up, NCAA Elite 8)(18-0-2, CAC #1 Seed, NCAA's)
Wheaton-Ill. (14-7-1, CCIW Champ, NCAA's)(15-4-3, CCIW Champ, NCAA's)
Dickinson (13-3-3, NCAA's)(13-5-3)
Gettysburg (12-7-1, Centennial Runner-Up)(9-5-4)
TCNJ (10-6-3)(9-9-2)
Kean (9-10-0)(7-12-1)
DeSales (10-10-2, MAC-Freedom Champs)(6-12-1)


Great post by Flying Weasel and I have to agree with his conclusion based on his thorough research.

As for Mr.Right...I'll go with a quote from W. Edwards Deming..."Without data you're just another person with an opinion."


I am to lazy to get the data but how bout we get a SOS for Messiah during these years. IIRC it was always in the .530-.545 range.  Last years was maybe .575 or .580. Also, during this time frame I see 1 solid outfit. York. That's it. None of the other teams made a solid NCAA run except Wheaton(IL). They made some decent runs in the NCAA's in somewhat weak regions some years. Once they hit the 2006 NCAA Final 4 they were completely outclassed. I see no top NJAC teams not even the top Centennial teams. What I do see is a ton of mediocrity. Richard Stockton by 2002 was a shell of what they were at the turn of the century. They played Stevens one year and Stevens did not even make the NCAA's. So you really need to look beyond this data that was presented without even giving us a year by year SOS for Messiah compared to 2017.

Another issue with Brandt was Messiah would ask for and given the religious exemption throughout his tenure. They would play the Fri / Sat pods while most other teams would play the Sat / Sun pods. Mind you this was before games were streamed. I had no problem with Messiah asking for the religious exemption. What I and many others did have a problem with was with Brandt. He would hop in his car on the Sunday and go scout the two teams he would be playing in the next round. Totally unethical and basically cheating because the other teams had no way of scouting Messiah as there was no point in scouting them on the Friday because you had to win 2 games anyway and were focused on that. Any data on that? Probably not because well that is not opinion that is FACT. So Brandt instead of going to church or whatever you people do on the Sunday would hop in his car and drive wherever to go scout on the same day they were claiming they couldn't play on because of religious interference but were able to scout on?? It was cheating.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on March 29, 2018, 02:15:37 PM
First off,  I never made any claim as to the strength of Brandt's schedules.  I questioned how you can simultaneously ajudge McCarty's 2018 schedule to be "pretty solid" and Brandt to "usually had an extremely weak non-conference schedule and never challenged his teams out of conference."  You said all you see in the 2003 to 2008 schedules is York and bunch of mediocrity.  Well, going off that standard, the 2018 schedule is Hopkins and a bunch of mediocrity (I wanted to exempt Cortland St., but I figured you wouldn't since they didn't and haven't managed a decent NCAA run). Besides 2006, put any of those other years side-by-side with the 2018 schedule and they compare favorably excepted maybe 2008.

Quote from: Mr.Right on March 29, 2018, 11:05:32 AM
I am to lazy to get the data but how bout we get a SOS for Messiah during these years. IIRC it was always in the .530-.545 range.  Last years was maybe .575 or .580. Also, during this time frame I see 1 solid outfit. York. That's it. None of the other teams made a solid NCAA run except Wheaton(IL). They made some decent runs in the NCAA's in somewhat weak regions some years. Once they hit the 2006 NCAA Final 4 they were completely outclassed. I see no top NJAC teams not even the top Centennial teams. What I do see is a ton of mediocrity. Richard Stockton by 2002 was a shell of what they were at the turn of the century. They played Stevens one year and Stevens did not even make the NCAA's. So you really need to look beyond this data that was presented without even giving us a year by year SOS for Messiah compared to 2017.

You can't be completely serious?!?!

● Richard Stockton was not nearly as good in 2003 as they were in 2001 (as you mention), but you say Messiah didn't play the top NJAC teams. Well, Stockton was the NJAC Champs in 2001, 2002, and 2004 and the regular season champ in 2003. If you dismiss Messiah playing Stockton in 2003, then do tell who they should have played at that time?  Rowan was already in decline as well. TCNJ was champ in 2005 but they had dropped off 'til Messiah played them in 2007 and 2008. Montclair State is the NJAC side that they missed out on under Brandt, but in the 2000's the Red Hawks weren't NJAC champs or runners-up, nor did they make the NCAA tournament until their breakout season of 2006 (20-1-1/9-0-0).
● And look again, Stevens made the NCAA's both years they played Messiah. It was 2002 they missed the tournament and settled for the ECAC championship, but in 2003 and 2005 they made the dance and finished ranked No. 12 and 13 in the NSCAA final polls those years.
● From the Centennial, not playing Johns Hopkins (due to the aversion to playing on astroturf back then) is what hurts. But they played 2003 and 2005 champs Muhlenberg in 2003 and 2004. They played McDaniel during their peak under John Plevyak when they were one of the top 2 or 3 teams in the Centennial from 2003 to 2005. Swarthmore only starting posting winning seasons starting in 2004 and it wasn't until 2008, Brandt's last, that Swat finally won a conference playoff game (they were champs) and got into the NCAA tournament.
● And I'm not sure how you can criticize having Wheaton (Ill.) and Christopher Newport to help fill out your non-conference schedule.

Again, I'm making no claim that Messiah had killer non-conference schedules. In my opinion, they often were very solid, but not always. But I don't think any fair-minded person would say they were usually weak as you claim.  Ohh, I don't have any SOS numbers for those years--in fact some of those years are from when that Quality-of-Win index was still being used before being replaced by the SOS computation.  But I think the SOS numbers would be fine.

I like both Brandt and McCarty and both have had years where I have been disappointed with the schedule and years when I have been happy with the schedule. The adversion to playing on astroturf back in the Brandt years meant missing out on playing Hopkins during the regular season and that was disappointing. And playing Montclair State instead of Kean or TCNJ in Brandt's final years would have been nice. I'm not impressed by this year's schedule.  Solid, but disappointing to have dropped Rowan and Haverford and only adding Cortland.  We'll have to see if Montclair St. and Whitworth can bounce from down years, if Dickinson can improve a little and what direction E-town is heading. Maybe I'll feel differently a month into the season.  And who knows if Hopkins' great season was an aberration or a start of a run among the nation's top programs once again.

Finally, I'm not sure how the rabbit trail about Messiah's previous religious exemption from Sunday play is relevant (just like it's not clear why you felt you had to turn attention back on Brandt's scheduling when discussing the 2018 season and the schedules being released), but, for the record, are you or are you not "talking about the character of the man as a human being" when you accuse him of cheating?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 1970s NESCAC Player on March 29, 2018, 02:27:21 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on March 29, 2018, 02:15:37 PM
First off,  I never made any claim as to the strength of Brandt's schedules.  I questioned how you can simultaneously ajudge McCarty's 2018 schedule to be "pretty solid" and Brandt to "usually had an extremely weak non-conference schedule and never challenged his teams out of conference."  You said all you see in the 2003 to 2008 schedules is York and bunch of mediocrity.  Well, going off that standard, the 2018 schedule is Hopkins and a bunch of mediocrity (I wanted to exempt Cortland St., but I figured you wouldn't since they didn't and haven't managed a decent NCAA run). Besides 2006, put any of those other years side-by-side with the 2018 schedule and they compare favorably excepted maybe 2008.

Quote from: Mr.Right on March 29, 2018, 11:05:32 AM
I am to lazy to get the data but how bout we get a SOS for Messiah during these years. IIRC it was always in the .530-.545 range.  Last years was maybe .575 or .580. Also, during this time frame I see 1 solid outfit. York. That's it. None of the other teams made a solid NCAA run except Wheaton(IL). They made some decent runs in the NCAA's in somewhat weak regions some years. Once they hit the 2006 NCAA Final 4 they were completely outclassed. I see no top NJAC teams not even the top Centennial teams. What I do see is a ton of mediocrity. Richard Stockton by 2002 was a shell of what they were at the turn of the century. They played Stevens one year and Stevens did not even make the NCAA's. So you really need to look beyond this data that was presented without even giving us a year by year SOS for Messiah compared to 2017.

You can't be completely serious?!?!

● Richard Stockton was not nearly as good in 2003 as they were in 2001 (as you mention), but you say Messiah didn't play the top NJAC teams. Well, Stockton was the NJAC Champs in 2001, 2002, and 2004 and the regular season champ in 2003. If you dismiss Messiah playing Stockton in 2003, then do tell who they should have played at that time?  Rowan was already in decline as well. TCNJ was champ in 2005 but they had dropped off 'til Messiah played them in 2007 and 2008. Montclair State is the NJAC side that they missed out on under Brandt, but in the 2000's the Red Hawks weren't NJAC champs or runners-up, nor did they make the NCAA tournament until their breakout season of 2006 (20-1-1/9-0-0).
● And look again, Stevens made the NCAA's both years they played Messiah. It was 2002 they missed the tournament and settled for the ECAC championship, but in 2003 and 2005 they made the dance and finished ranked No. 12 and 13 in the NSCAA final polls those years.
● From the Centennial, not playing Johns Hopkins (due to the aversion to playing on astroturf back then) is what hurts. But they played 2003 and 2005 champs Muhlenberg in 2003 and 2004. They played McDaniel during their peak under John Plevyak when they were one of the top 2 or 3 teams in the Centennial from 2003 to 2005. Swarthmore only starting posting winning seasons starting in 2004 and it wasn't until 2008, Brandt's last, that Swat finally won a conference playoff game (they were champs) and got into the NCAA tournament.
● And I'm not sure how you can criticize having Wheaton (Ill.) and Christopher Newport to help fill out your non-conference schedule.

Again, I'm making no claim that Messiah had killer non-conference schedules. In my opinion, they often were very solid, but not always. But I don't think any fair-minded person would say they were usually weak as you claim.  Ohh, I don't have any SOS numbers for those years--in fact some of those years are from when that Quality-of-Win index was still being used before being replaced by the SOS computation.  But I think the SOS numbers would be fine.

I like both Brandt and McCarty and both have had years where I have been disappointed with the schedule and years when I have been happy with the schedule. The adversion to playing on astroturf back in the Brandt years meant missing out on playing Hopkins during the regular season and that was disappointing. And playing Montclair State instead of Kean or TCNJ in Brandt's final years would have been nice. I'm not impressed by this year's schedule.  Solid, but disappointing to have dropped Rowan and Haverford and only adding Cortland.  We'll have to see if Montclair St. and Whitworth can bounce from down years, if Dickinson can improve a little and what direction E-town is heading. Maybe I'll feel differently a month into the season.  And who knows if Hopkins' great season was an aberration or a start of a run among the nation's top programs once again.

Finally, I'm not sure how the rabbit trail about Messiah's previous religious exemption from Sunday play is relevant (just like it's not clear why you felt you had to turn attention back on Brandt's scheduling when discussing the 2018 season and the schedules being released), but, for the record, are you or are you not "talking about the character of the man as a human being" when you accuse him of cheating?

Should we just have a thread called Mr. Right v. Flying Weasel?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on March 29, 2018, 02:35:53 PM
Everything is relevant but yes ok I am talking about the man's character or lack of integrity when it comes to the religious exemption issue. The fact is if the team CANNOT PLAY on Sunday due to religious obligations the surely the coach SHOULD NOT BE SCOUTING his next opponent the same day.

As far as scheduling I was comparing it to 2017 not 2018. We can agree to disagree but not having the other TOP team in that decade in that region which is probably a solid hour from you on your schedule is ridiculous. Hopkins was a nasty side and to not have them on his schedule was a shame and I am betting their former Coach would have played Messiah in a heartbeat and who knows maybe he would have agreed to play Messiah on a neutral grass field instead of at Hopkins.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on March 29, 2018, 02:37:59 PM
No need...I am done with the whole Brandt spewing. We can move forward with present day conversation.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on March 29, 2018, 02:55:30 PM
Curious to know why Hopkins wouldn't have played at Shoemaker if Messiah didn't want to play on Astroturf? Not trying to ask a leading question; genuinely curious.

I am certainly no expert on Christianity, but, if Brandt did indeed scout teams on days where his team was accommodated due to an exemption, that is pretty shady in my humble opinion. I might not call it "cheating," but I would say it's "unethical."
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 29, 2018, 02:56:03 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on March 29, 2018, 02:35:53 PM
Everything is relevant but yes ok I am talking about the man's character or lack of integrity when it comes to the religious exemption issue. The fact is if the team CANNOT PLAY on Sunday due to religious obligations the surely the coach SHOULD NOT BE SCOUTING his next opponent the same day.


I'm confused... Messiah has gotten rid of the religious restrictions for post-season play for a number of years. Isn't this well behind us now?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 29, 2018, 02:57:03 PM
Just to change the topic... new rule ideas... all of which I endorse: http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/soccer-referees-could-start-keeping-official-time
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on March 29, 2018, 06:56:01 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 29, 2018, 02:57:03 PM
Just to change the topic... new rule ideas... all of which I endorse: http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/soccer-referees-could-start-keeping-official-time

I'm not that thrilled about the proposal for the referees to keep time on the field, simply because I've seen so many games in which the ref did not keep time accurately.  Also, the lack of transparency associated with having the ref keep time is a concern, although this is more of an issue for the major pro leagues where lots of money is on the line.

And with regard to the claim that the "current system leads to gamesmanship and chaos where teams can use delay tactics at the end of matches," do they really expect to eliminate that by having the ref keep time?  I see that happen routinely in matches timed by refs.

I do see some advantages with the proposal.  I like the idea that a team won't have an attack interrupted by the end of the half or game.  And the NCAA isn't currently set up to adjudicate split-second judgements that are necessitated by the use of the clock.  Remember the controversy at the D1 final between Indiana and Georgetown a few years ago when Indiana scored a goal that was disallowed becuase it was judged to have gone into the goal just a fraction of a second after the end of the first half?

But it seems to me that these concerns could be addressed through means other than having the ref time the game.  In this case, I think the NCAA rule is superior to the FIFA rule, and should be maintained.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 4samuy on March 29, 2018, 10:28:28 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on March 28, 2018, 11:10:44 PM
Chicago's schedule: http://athletics.uchicago.edu/sports/msoc/2018-19/schedule

It's loaded.  Trinity (Tx.), North Park, Loras, and Calvin in their non-conference schedule on top of the ever-deep and competitive UAA slate.

Non-conference schedule
9/1 (A) Trinity (Tx.)
9/3 (N) TBD (at Trinity (Tx.)
9/5 (A) Benedictine (Ill.)
9/8 (A) North Park
9/12 (H) Wheaton (Ill.)
9/15 (H) Loras
9/16 (H) Macalester
9/19 (H) Carroll (Wis.)
9/22 (A) Calvin
10/17 (H) Carthage

WOW!  Even with the four returning All Americans (Lopez, Koh, Adeyoson and Copotosto) they will need huge contributions from the rest of their very deep team to challenge that schedule.  On paper, Chicago will be really really good, and give huge credit to coach Babst and his staff for scheduling some of the best in the country.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on March 30, 2018, 08:51:00 AM
I don't know how non-conference scheduling is done in D3 (or any other level). The comments about changes from one year to another lead me to ask what a reasonable expectation should be. Since Messiah's schedule is the one on view here for several years, I'll keep the Falcons for my specifics. Obviously anyone with knowledge of other team's scheduling for several years should chime in with their questions and answers.

First, the Falcons have been playing certain non-conference teams regularly (not necessarily annually, but quite often) for decades: York (which was arguably the best team in their region for several years), Gettysburg (which has many results vs Messiah) and Dickinson (still lacks a single result, but some years they are good enough to make the dance). The two geographically closest Centennial teams are in that group, and many years Gburg is awfully good, whether or not they make the dance. Surely travel costs are part of that picture, but it's not as though the Falcons were playing the same bad teams with regularity. They weren't.

So, what about the others? Messiah played Rowan home-and-home a few times, but not annually. Ditto for Montclair. Hopkins wasn't on the schedule until quite recently, partly (no doubt) b/c of Messiah's aversion to certain artificial surfaces. Indeed, I can tell you with some confidence that Brandt regarded this game as one of his nightmares: https://www.messiah.edu/gomessiah/sports/mens_soccer/statistics/2003/STEVMESS.HTM
That game was on a rug, and he felt his team was greatly disadvantaged by that particular place. He's one of the most competitive people I could name, in any line of work, and if he can get an advantage or avoid a disadvantage by a particular tactical move, he makes that move. He always felt that the Falcons actually played better on the road (than at home) in tournament games, partly b/c he could control more of the situation by having his team with him for 72 hours.

I don't sense that McCarty has quite the same aversion to various artificial surfaces. Obviously he's also a competitive person, but I don't think he's quite as intense as Brandt. It remains true, however, that the Falcons don't usually play as well on smaller or non-grass fields. When you're always in the gunsight--and, let's be honest, the Falcons have to be first on that list of targets, and have been for at least 15 years--you don't want to schedule too many games against quality teams at places where you are less likely to play your best. SOS counts, but so do W/L records vs top teams. Better to play them later, in the tournament (where you might get them at home or on a similar field), than at a disadvantageous venue in the regular season.
At least if I'm the Falcon coach, that's my thinking. I don't want to lose an NCAA bid, simply b/c my team didn't win the AQ and they had 3 road losses that might have turned out differently on regulation grass fields (b/c of team's personnel and style of play).

Put yourself in the same situation, and you might agree--or, at least, understand it and see the rationality.

As for changes from year to year, I assume part of the picture involves coaches wanting to play against more than just a few specific teams/coaches over a decade. If the coach at Smart College is your friend, maybe you want to agree to a home-and-home once in a while, and to do that you have to drop a home-and-home with another guy's team for a few years. Who knows? I don't. That's what I'm asking about. Aren't things done this way? Aren't there always personal factors like this, in addition to ensuring that you play some really tough teams out of conference?





Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC43 on March 30, 2018, 08:56:00 AM
Quote from: 4samuy on March 29, 2018, 10:28:28 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on March 28, 2018, 11:10:44 PM
Chicago's schedule: http://athletics.uchicago.edu/sports/msoc/2018-19/schedule

It's loaded.  Trinity (Tx.), North Park, Loras, and Calvin in their non-conference schedule on top of the ever-deep and competitive UAA slate.

Non-conference schedule
9/1 (A) Trinity (Tx.)
9/3 (N) TBD (at Trinity (Tx.)
9/5 (A) Benedictine (Ill.)
9/8 (A) North Park
9/12 (H) Wheaton (Ill.)
9/15 (H) Loras
9/16 (H) Macalester
9/19 (H) Carroll (Wis.)
9/22 (A) Calvin
10/17 (H) Carthage

WOW!  Even with the four returning All Americans (Lopez, Koh, Adeyoson and Copotosto) they will need huge contributions from the rest of their very deep team to challenge that schedule.  On paper, Chicago will be really really good, and give huge credit to coach Babst and his staff for scheduling some of the best in the country.

Agreed. Will be good to see Chicago, who is one of the best, take on some of the best on a weekly basis. Plus the UAA schedule is a challenge in itself. Surely this will top Case Western's SOS last year which we all thought was brutal.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on March 30, 2018, 10:23:41 AM
Lycoming 2018 Schedule
8-31 @Grove City
9-1 @Geneva
9-5 @Susquehanna
9-7 @CMU*
9-12 @Medaille
9-15 Scranton*
9-16 Penn College
9-19 Eastern*
9-22 CNU*
9-26 @Misericordia
9-29 @Albright
10-3 Moravian
10-6 Stevenson
10-9 Alvernia
10-13 @Widener
10-17 @Messiah*
10-20 Arcadia
10-23 LVC
10-27 @Hood

Dropped: RUC, Rowan, Dickinson, Washington, FSU, CWRU, 
Added: Grove City, Geneva, CMU, Penn College, Eastern, CNU, Moravian

(Added * next to significant games in my opinion)
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 30, 2018, 02:00:15 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on March 29, 2018, 06:56:01 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 29, 2018, 02:57:03 PM
Just to change the topic... new rule ideas... all of which I endorse: http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/soccer-referees-could-start-keeping-official-time

I'm not that thrilled about the proposal for the referees to keep time on the field, simply because I've seen so many games in which the ref did not keep time accurately.  Also, the lack of transparency associated with having the ref keep time is a concern, although this is more of an issue for the major pro leagues where lots of money is on the line.


I don't agree. Refs basically keep time for games at lower levels and higher levels. The only level which consistently has a "game clock" is the NCAA level (even some high school levels in the states have the refs control the clock). This is second nature to the sport and we have to stop Americanizing every damn thing and think it is better.

Quote from: Buck O. on March 29, 2018, 06:56:01 PM
And with regard to the claim that the "current system leads to gamesmanship and chaos where teams can use delay tactics at the end of matches," do they really expect to eliminate that by having the ref keep time?  I see that happen routinely in matches timed by refs.

When you can see the clock, you know exactly how to affect the clock. When you don't know the exact amount of time and you know it won't end just because you stand in the corner... it would end some of that stuff. Sure, we have substitutions affecting things even in the pro and international level (though, to a lesser degree), but it isn't like those rules will disappear either.

Quote from: Buck O. on March 29, 2018, 06:56:01 PM
I do see some advantages with the proposal.  I like the idea that a team won't have an attack interrupted by the end of the half or game.  And the NCAA isn't currently set up to adjudicate split-second judgements that are necessitated by the use of the clock.  Remember the controversy at the D1 final between Indiana and Georgetown a few years ago when Indiana scored a goal that was disallowed becuase it was judged to have gone into the goal just a fraction of a second after the end of the first half?

What you describe here is exactly why I have hated the clock for most of my career playing even in college. There is also the always present controversy of whether a clock was stopped in the right amount of time and such. I rather the game come to an end like many sports including rugby and somewhat football - that don't end just because the clock strikes zero.

Quote from: Buck O. on March 29, 2018, 06:56:01 PM
But it seems to me that these concerns could be addressed through means other than having the ref time the game.  In this case, I think the NCAA rule is superior to the FIFA rule, and should be maintained.

That I don't agree with. If the NCAA rules were so much better, then why wouldn't be adopted across the world. They aren't. The NCAA rules are in one place... the NCAA. It has bastardized the game out of the sake of being "American." We have to stop trying to always make games identical in nature.

Refs wear multiple watches at lower levels, higher levels, and all levels but the NCAA in which to run their own clock. This rule won't eliminate the clock in the stadium, it just won't mean when the clock strikes "zero" - or rather "45:00" and "90:00" that it suddenly stops the game. Just it is in every stadium around the world big or small.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on March 30, 2018, 03:58:35 PM
Looks like USMMA (aka Merchant Marine, aka Kings Point) men's soccer will be back for the 2018 season after the program was suspended prior to the 2017 season due to the on-going federal investigation into allegations of sexual misconduct, bullying, coercion and retaliation by upperclassmen on the men's soccer team on bus trips during the 2016 season.  Even though the investiagtion has not been concluded, the Academy reinstated the program for the spring non-traditional season and has notified the Skyline Conference of their intent to declare with the NCAA to sponsor men's soccer this fall season and resume a full conference schedule. As far as I can tell, there has been no NCAA involvement in the investigation and self-imposed suspension of the program.  And apparently nothing stands in the way of the team being recognized by the NCAA as long as the Academy includes the soccer program on their annual athletic sponsorship paperwork to the NCAA.

USMMA Alumni release: https://www.usmmaaf.com/s/1175/hybrid/social.aspx?sid=1175&gid=1&pgid=2004&cid=3770&ecid=3770&crid=0
Newsday article: https://www.newsday.com/long-island/education/merchant-marine-academy-soccer-sexual-misconduct-1.17135984
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on March 31, 2018, 02:09:51 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 30, 2018, 02:00:15 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on March 29, 2018, 06:56:01 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 29, 2018, 02:57:03 PM
Just to change the topic... new rule ideas... all of which I endorse: http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/soccer-referees-could-start-keeping-official-time

I'm not that thrilled about the proposal for the referees to keep time on the field, simply because I've seen so many games in which the ref did not keep time accurately.  Also, the lack of transparency associated with having the ref keep time is a concern, although this is more of an issue for the major pro leagues where lots of money is on the line.


I don't agree. Refs basically keep time for games at lower levels and higher levels. The only level which consistently has a "game clock" is the NCAA level (even some high school levels in the states have the refs control the clock). This is second nature to the sport and we have to stop Americanizing every damn thing and think it is better.

What you won't find in my original comments is any suggestion that the NCAA's proposal is better simply because it's American.  That would be a ridiculous assertion.  I would be perfectly fine with modifying some of the other rules (e.g., stuffing all of the games into the fall or the substitution rules) that are mandated by the NCAA.  But I think it's equally ridiculous to assert, as you did below, that the mere fact that the NCAA's rules haven't been adopted worldwide is proof that they're not superior. 

As I noted, my personal experience is that referees have a lot of trouble timing games accurately.  I don't know why that is.  It doesn't seem that hard.  But just to use the most recent examples available to me:  In a game that my son played last weekend, the referee stopped the first half about a minute and a half early.  In a game he played the weekend before that, the referee failed to award a single second of stoppage time despite the fact that there had been an injury earlier in the half and a player sent off which together should have led to at least two added minutes.  I could go on and on; my personal experience is that it is not the slightest bit unusual for a referee to mistime matches. 

Moreover, the evidence supporting my argument isn't limited to my personal experience, which of course might not be representative.  The decision that the referees need to make is how much stoppage time to add.  But, as this piece (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/was-the-u-s-robbed-against-portugal-it-depends-on-what-time-means/) from a few years ago states, "In European club football, Decision Technology has found — using data from Opta, a Prozone competitor — virtually no correlation between the amount of time the ball is out of play in each half and the time added on at the end."

By displaying the amount of time left in the game, the NCAA system makes it very clear which stoppages lead to the extension of the time needed to complete the half, and which do not.  I favor clarity.  In contrast, if the referee times the match, it opens the door not to just to random errors, but to bias that may favor one team over another.  For example, referees tend to award more stoppage time to the home team. One can easily envision other motives that might apply in some cases.  I'm not very concerned about NCAA referees adding stoppage time because they're on the take, but if you've got a ref who's annoyed at a coach who's been on his case all day long, I'd rather not have a system that permits him to get his revenge through a unilateral and unreviewable decision to extend the game.  That's just a bad set of incentives.

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 30, 2018, 02:00:15 PM

Quote from: Buck O. on March 29, 2018, 06:56:01 PM
And with regard to the claim that the "current system leads to gamesmanship and chaos where teams can use delay tactics at the end of matches," do they really expect to eliminate that by having the ref keep time?  I see that happen routinely in matches timed by refs.

When you can see the clock, you know exactly how to affect the clock. When you don't know the exact amount of time and you know it won't end just because you stand in the corner... it would end some of that stuff. Sure, we have substitutions affecting things even in the pro and international level (though, to a lesser degree), but it isn't like those rules will disappear either.


I don't see any reason why it would end "some of that stuff."  If I can kill 20 seconds by standing in the corner or delaying a goal kick or whatnot, what does it matter if I don't know whether there are 20 seconds or 45 seconds left in the game?  Either way, it's 20 seconds in which the opponent can't score.

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 30, 2018, 02:00:15 PM

Quote from: Buck O. on March 29, 2018, 06:56:01 PM
I do see some advantages with the proposal.  I like the idea that a team won't have an attack interrupted by the end of the half or game.  And the NCAA isn't currently set up to adjudicate split-second judgements that are necessitated by the use of the clock.  Remember the controversy at the D1 final between Indiana and Georgetown a few years ago when Indiana scored a goal that was disallowed becuase it was judged to have gone into the goal just a fraction of a second after the end of the first half?

What you describe here is exactly why I have hated the clock for most of my career playing even in college. There is also the always present controversy of whether a clock was stopped in the right amount of time and such. I rather the game come to an end like many sports including rugby and somewhat football - that don't end just because the clock strikes zero.

So, as I said, I agree.  But to address that, I'd empower the referee to continue play after we reach the time at which the half would normally end until the end of an attack.  That addresses this issue without the other downsides of having the ref time the game on the field.  Think of it as (very roughly) analogous to the NFL rule that permits an untimed down at the end of a half when there is a defensive penalty.  in each case, there is recognition that ought to be an exception to the general rule that play stops when time has run out.

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on March 30, 2018, 02:00:15 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on March 29, 2018, 06:56:01 PM
But it seems to me that these concerns could be addressed through means other than having the ref time the game.  In this case, I think the NCAA rule is superior to the FIFA rule, and should be maintained.

That I don't agree with. If the NCAA rules were so much better, then why wouldn't be adopted across the world. They aren't. The NCAA rules are in one place... the NCAA. It has bastardized the game out of the sake of being "American." We have to stop trying to always make games identical in nature.

Refs wear multiple watches at lower levels, higher levels, and all levels but the NCAA in which to run their own clock. This rule won't eliminate the clock in the stadium, it just won't mean when the clock strikes "zero" - or rather "45:00" and "90:00" that it suddenly stops the game. Just it is in every stadium around the world big or small.

It won't eliminate the clock in the stadium, but it would needlessly introduce opacity and unaccountability because that clock won't indicate how much time is left.  While the NCAA-mandated rules differences are often inferior to the normal FIFA procedures, they aren't always worse, and I think this is one of the cases where the NCAA actually has it (mostly) right, although I would make the one change I mention above.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on March 31, 2018, 05:05:15 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on March 31, 2018, 02:09:51 PMSo, as I said, I agree.  But to address that, I'd empower the referee to continue play after we reach the time at which the half would normally end until the end of an attack.  That addresses this issue without the other downsides of having the ref time the game on the field.  Think of it as (very roughly) analogous to the NFL rule that permits an untimed down at the end of a half when there is a defensive penalty.  in each case, there is recognition that ought to be an exception to the general rule that play stops when time has run out.

A better analogy, since play isn't continuous in football, might be the hockey rule that play is not stopped when an active-play penalty is committed by the defending team; play continues for as long as the attacking team still has the puck or until it scores a goal. It isn't until the defending team takes possession of the puck, or the puck goes out of play, that the clock stops and the penalty is enforced.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on April 01, 2018, 06:09:03 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 31, 2018, 05:05:15 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on March 31, 2018, 02:09:51 PMSo, as I said, I agree.  But to address that, I'd empower the referee to continue play after we reach the time at which the half would normally end until the end of an attack.  That addresses this issue without the other downsides of having the ref time the game on the field.  Think of it as (very roughly) analogous to the NFL rule that permits an untimed down at the end of a half when there is a defensive penalty.  in each case, there is recognition that ought to be an exception to the general rule that play stops when time has run out.

A better analogy, since play isn't continuous in football, might be the hockey rule that play is not stopped when an active-play penalty is committed by the defending team; play continues for as long as the attacking team still has the puck or until it scores a goal. It isn't until the defending team takes possession of the puck, or the puck goes out of play, that the clock stops and the penalty is enforced.

Yes, that's a better analogy.  Thanks.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Hopkins92 on April 02, 2018, 01:40:52 PM
I'd be OK if there was someone keeping the time and stopping the clock on every whistle. If you're going to use something that has such a huge impact on the game, it shouldn't just be for injuries or goals that they stop the time. You wanna hammerboot the ball out of bounds every time it comes near you in the final 2 minutes? Fine. You're going to need to do that about 30 times and pray. As it is, you can bang the ball out of bounds and if they ballboy/girl isn't on point (and we've all seen how home team ball grabbers can get rubber legs down the stretch) and burn through 20-30 seconds of clock time at the end.

It's a pretty ridiculous way to end a soccer game, given how time is kept the rest of the game. Not getting into FIFA vs NCAA, I'm talking about being consistent with stopping the clock the entire game.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on April 02, 2018, 01:54:43 PM
The whole point of the referee throwing his 2 arms into the air and crossing them is to stop the clock. I like the system the way it is with the official clock on the scoreboard..If the ref wants to stop the clock for time wasting than he has every right to do so. Just have a Athletic Admin from the Home School overseeing the whole operation so there is no issues with time operators with slow fingers. Honestly, I have never really seen any egregious issues with college games that I have seen with time problems.

I think the BIGGER ISSUE than no one has mentioned is the possibility of allowing Home Teams to play artificial noisemakers while the ball is in play. This one I just do not understand. I am not sure to what they are referencing because if they are talking about artificial crowd noise that would be a total disaster. If they are talking about bands or soccer related crap from the fans that is fine. If it is actually artificial crowd noise that is a MASSIVE problem. Very distracting and Home teams with dodgy coaches could use it to their advantage. This needs to be explained more. Not even sure what the need for this bulletpoint is unless schools like Maryland and UNC who draw thousands of fans need it otherwise it will be a complete annoyance and distraction for players, coaches and fans of BOTH teams.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Hopkins92 on April 02, 2018, 02:20:52 PM
QuoteAllowing bands, musical instruments and artificial noisemakers while the ball is in play.

I don't see how this could be interpreted as allowing a PA or speakers to be used to pump artificial crowd noise into the game atmosphere. I take "artificial noisemaker" to be cowbells or other items that just, you know, make noise.

And, not to pick nits, but how time is kept in the NCAA is a pretty big deal. For a lot of people, the deviation from FIFA on this rule is an abomination. I don't feel that strongly about it, but it's not a minor issue to a lot of people.

I think some of you are making decent points about it NOT being a big deal, but, frankly, the vast majority of soccer fans tune into a college game and shake their heads. To flip the analogies used here, think of a hockey game where the ref kept the time on the ice, and you only had a vague notion of how long the game would stretch past each 20 minute period. People would lose their minds, even if you made a bunch of cogent arguments about the benefits of that system. (I don't have the energy to cook them up, and it's not the point.)
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on April 02, 2018, 02:34:05 PM
Umm ok but artificial noisemakers as u define them like "cowbells" or whatever have always been allowed..When has that ever been a problem? Why the need to include this then? I take artificial noisemakers as a pretty broad definition.

People like yourself MAKE the time issue a big deal..For all the people that think the deviation from FIFA to be an abomination do they have specific examples as to how this deviation has caused widespread problems for NCAA Soccer? Why the need to change to giving the ref full control of the time without ANY fans or coaches or players to know how much time is left in the match? For full transparency I think the NCAA actually has this right. If you want to start the clock to time up to 90 instead of down then I would be fine with that but I am not fine with giving refs even more power with the clock. No need. They have enough problems as it is. There are many fine College refs but just as many useless refs that are either to old or to fat to be reffing. They have made many contacts over the years and are not willing to give up this secondary income and get a ton of the plush assignments. These bums should have retired long ago and they know who they are. I really do not want to be giving some of these guys the power to determine the time at the end of matches.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Hopkins92 on April 02, 2018, 03:25:34 PM
I'm not saying the NCAA isn't prone to fairly vague and easy to misinterpret rules, but just from the context... band, musical instrument, artificial noisemaker... Is it possible that there has never been a stipulation that these noisemakers, bands or other types of cheering are permissible? Is it not possible that some coach or AD is annoyed with the advantage afforded to the MD's of the world and tried to get something on the books to forbid it? And that this bullet is specifically telling those fun-burglars to shove off?

With that said, I do see the possible loophole being created here, and it's a valid point. I guess some lawyer could come in and defend jet engine-level noise being blasted at the opposing team during warm-ups as being permissible. But, wow, that would be a pretty significant stretch, no?

=-=-=-=-=

You kind of burned a lot of words on something I'd already stipulated to: the center ref shouldn't be the one keeping track of time. Just like they aren't in any other count-down sport. There should be an official timekeeper and they should be stopping the clock on every whistle. Period. Yeah, you'll have a few user error slippages, but nothing like what happens with the center ref system.

(As a final aside, you took a borderline personal approach to responding to a pretty innocuous comment. You might want to chill with putting "you people" into a response as it's unnecessarily confrontational, particularly when I've hedged twice in that post by saying I don't feel that strongly AND that I thought good points were being made on the other side of the argument.)
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: d4_Pace on April 02, 2018, 04:20:15 PM
I think the time aspect is the one NCAA rule I preferred over the more FIFA like rules used in academy games. I remember vividly having to defend corner kicks with 10-15 seconds left, and knowing okay one more stop is all we need.  Those were some of the more heart stopping moments and something you don't get quite so tangibly with a subjective stoppage time.  But in my mind its not a huge issue either way and what really should be addressed is the substitution rules which are ridiculous and favor the direct style the college soccer is known for. 
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 02, 2018, 04:26:05 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on April 02, 2018, 03:25:34 PM
You kind of burned a lot of words on something I'd already stipulated to: the center ref shouldn't be the one keeping track of time. Just like they aren't in any other count-down sport. There should be an official timekeeper and they should be stopping the clock on every whistle. Period. Yeah, you'll have a few user error slippages, but nothing like what happens with the center ref system.

And here lies the rub... only in the US is soccer a countdown sport.

The official in the center of the field is the official time keeper for all levels of soccer all around the world except, primarily, in the NCAA (high school in the US, it varies).

As for a stoppage on every whistle, soccer isn't lacrosse (men's not women's) or basketball. Even football doesn't stop the clock on every whistle or out of bounds play (ironically, countdown sport, btw).

Also another note: every sport that does have a clock counting down... the officials are still responsible for that clock.

But back to my point... soccer does not have the scoreboard clock as "official" except in the NCAA. So, why should the NCAA be different for starters and why should FIFA follow the NCAA "ideas" when they are the only ones?

The clock in the game as soccer has always been a guide to how much time has been played - much like in rugby and other sports - not an absolute stoppage. I am not a fan that the game of soccer, which ebbs and flows and has a certain cadence to it ... has all of that dictated by a clock counting down. Decisions are absolutely made by players and coaches to impact that clock. I regret to this day I didn't run up to a direct kick that was to be taken a second time because the official wasn't allowing it to be taken from the same spot again (it was 10-15 yards more towards the center of the field). I wanted to stop the clock and get his attention. It would have earned me a yellow, but I would have gotten his attention AND stopped the clock. I was the keeper, it was in college.

I have seen players get carded for actions like that just to stop the clock (yes, and waste the clock; those are more common). If the clock on the scoreboard doesn't have as much impact on the game and you know the official is keeping the time... you may be less likely to do things specifically to impact something you can actually see being changed or affected.

But again... why is the NCAA's clock rule the one that is so much better than any level around the world? This isn't a US dictated sport, but many act like because we do it in the US, it is the right way of doing it.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 02, 2018, 04:28:52 PM
Per substitutions... I know I've heard the argument for less subs allowed...

One thing I will always say to that: it won't fly in the NCAA for one big reason (especially at DIII) ... it would by default limit the size of rosters (players not interested if they have no chance of playing in games) and with DIII and even DII dictated on enrollment and retention... I just don't see a change to the number of subs allowed in a game.

(Understand, I do like the idea on paper, I just understand how it is seen from a college's point of view - like limiting football and lacrosse roster sizes.)

The rules about automatically stopping the clock (currently) for subs by the leading team in the final five minutes I think are smart. When I played, you couldn't re-enter the game in the second half (only the first half). I don't know why they changed that rule, but that's how some of the end-of-game substitution shenanigans really started.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: d4_Pace on April 02, 2018, 04:34:30 PM
I get what you are saying about why change from what the rest of the world does.  I guess my response to that is that college soccer already is a completely different beast, and very Americanized, in many ways other than the time.  The biggest example, is the fact that we have two golden goal overtimes before a game is officially a tie. 
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 02, 2018, 04:48:14 PM
Quote from: d4_Pace on April 02, 2018, 04:34:30 PM
I get what you are saying about why change from what the rest of the world does.  I guess my response to that is that college soccer already is a completely different beast, and very Americanized, in many ways other than the time.  The biggest example, is the fact that we have two golden goal overtimes before a game is officially a tie.

And to be honest... the point you hit on is why a) the US game isn't being helped by the NCAA or getting better itself, b ) good soccer players are avoiding the NCAA altogether, which is hurting the NCAA game, and c) why the NCAA game is becoming more and more irrelevant.

The NCAA game needs to go back towards how it is played prior to college and after college... not be something completely opposite of itself.

I am fine if games just end in ties during the regular season. So be it. That's the game. It also puts pressure on a team to find a way to win at the end instead of just holding on for OT (you know, after getting a rest).
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on April 02, 2018, 07:26:46 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on April 02, 2018, 03:25:34 PM
I'm not saying the NCAA isn't prone to fairly vague and easy to misinterpret rules, but just from the context... band, musical instrument, artificial noisemaker... Is it possible that there has never been a stipulation that these noisemakers, bands or other types of cheering are permissible? Is it not possible that some coach or AD is annoyed with the advantage afforded to the MD's of the world and tried to get something on the books to forbid it? And that this bullet is specifically telling those fun-burglars to shove off?

My reading is that the NCAA has defined artificial noisemakers the same for soccer as they are for every other sport. You can't switch on a boom box, blow vuvuzuelas, bang drums, etc., during live action in other sports in D3. Just this past fall at NPU we had an incident in which the father of a football player (from the visiting team, not that it made any difference) was blowing an air horn in the stands every time that his son's team did something good. With the blessing and encouragement of North Park's SID, I knocked on the door of the officiating crew's dressing room at halftime and informed the referee of the problem, and as soon as the officials retook the field at the end of haltime he activated his field mic and announced that artificial noisemakers were illegal by NCAA rules and that further use of the air horn would result in the user being ejected from the stadium. The dad promptly put the air horn in his coat pocket, and we never heard it again.

Quote from: Hopkins92 on April 02, 2018, 03:25:34 PM
You kind of burned a lot of words on something I'd already stipulated to: the center ref shouldn't be the one keeping track of time. Just like they aren't in any other count-down sport. There should be an official timekeeper and they should be stopping the clock on every whistle. Period. Yeah, you'll have a few user error slippages, but nothing like what happens with the center ref system.

I've never thought of the user-error slippages as being a problem, because the center refs in the games I've worked or attended have never been shy about telling the scoreboard operator to put x number of seconds back on the clock. In fact, it seems to me that a lot of Dave's objections are covered by this. The center ref really does control the clock in NCAA soccer, because: a) he has the right to modify the time displayed on the scoreboard at will; and b) it's a right that is frequently exercised.

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 02, 2018, 04:26:05 PMBut again... why is the NCAA's clock rule the one that is so much better than any level around the world? This isn't a US dictated sport, but many act like because we do it in the US, it is the right way of doing it.

It's a U.S.-dictated sport in the U.S., though, and that's the whole point.

I'm not a knee-jerk supporter of American exceptionalism, but, at the same time, I don't subscribe to the "if everybody else is doing it differently, then they must be right and we must be wrong" school of thought. If the NCAA wants to shape the rules of the game differently than the rest of the world, then I need a better reason to oppose that than the idea that the English, the Swedes, the Nigerians, the Panamanians, and the Iranians have more trustworthy opinions than do Americans. This is especially true because, at least in D3, the NCAA (ostensibly) represents the interests of a specific stakeholder, the student-athlete. You illustrated this perfectly in talking about the substitution rule with regard to how it suits the mission statement of D3 to permit unlimited substitutions in soccer.

Again, this is not jingoism on my part. The Japanese allow ties in baseball, unlike everybody else in the world who plays that sport. Speaking as a baseball fan, this doesn't bother me in the least; in fact, I applaud it. I see it as being a specific expression of Japanese culture and how it views the balance between effort and achievement, or between competition and group solidarity. In the immortal words of Sly and the Family Stone, different strokes for different folks.

Quote from: d4_Pace on April 02, 2018, 04:34:30 PM
I get what you are saying about why change from what the rest of the world does.  I guess my response to that is that college soccer already is a completely different beast, and very Americanized, in many ways other than the time.  The biggest example, is the fact that we have two golden goal overtimes before a game is officially a tie. 

And I'm fine with that. Americans don't like ties; they prefer decisive outcomes in their sports, and they've have demonstrated this in other sports prone to ties (football and hockey) by periodically modifying the rules to make ties less likely, just as baseball and basketball specifically forbade ties many generations ago. This is part of American sporting culture, and I don't really see a reason why Americans should be fed ties in soccer like they're spoonfuls of castor oil. It certainly doesn't help the sport's attempts to gain popularity in this country. As it is, ties are still far more frequent in soccer than they are in any other college sport in America, so it's not as though the NCAA has been overwhelmingly successful in getting rid of them via the two-overtime system.

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 02, 2018, 04:48:14 PMAnd to be honest... the point you hit on is why a) the US game isn't being helped by the NCAA or getting better itself, b ) good soccer players are avoiding the NCAA altogether, which is hurting the NCAA game, and c) why the NCAA game is becoming more and more irrelevant.

Those are D1's problems, not D3's. If D1 soccer is that interested in becoming a feeder system for the pros, then let the D1 folks legislate their own division to enhance that vision to their heart's content.

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 02, 2018, 04:48:14 PMThe NCAA game needs to go back towards how it is played prior to college and after college... not be something completely opposite of itself.

I'm not crazy about making rules just for the sake of making rules. Other sports also have rules that differ from one level to another; there's nothing unique about soccer in that regard. If there's a valid reason why the NCAA's non-conformity is hampering its players by making high-school to college or college to pro transitions difficult, then, by all means, make rules to correct that if necessary. But if not, then I think that the old aphorism that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies.

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 02, 2018, 04:48:14 PMI am fine if games just end in ties during the regular season. So be it. That's the game. It also puts pressure on a team to find a way to win at the end instead of just holding on for OT (you know, after getting a rest).

I don't see how it's any different whether a team plays for a tie or a win at the end of regulation than it would in overtime. Time is an arbitrary delineator of game length that, in and of itself, doesn't really affect strategy per se. A cutoff point is a cutoff point, whether you're talking about ninety minutes or ten minutes (or 110 minutes, if the play-to-tie strategy is adopted while regulation is still going on).
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on April 07, 2018, 09:12:29 PM
Given all the discussion about Coach Brandt on these boards, I thought many of you would like to read this article recently posted on Hope College's website.  It seems very comprehensive and might set straight some of the conjecture on numerous posts.

http://athletics.hope.edu/sports/msoc/2018-19/releases/20180405jza14h (http://athletics.hope.edu/sports/msoc/2018-19/releases/20180405jza14h)
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on April 07, 2018, 09:52:41 PM
Intereating. It seems like he says he wanted out of Pittsburgh. That's not the story in Pittsburgh and it certainly skips over the whole license issue, which was very real.  We all spin things our own way. I think this is a very good example of that.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on April 08, 2018, 03:47:29 PM
While he may have been "ruled ineligible to coach the Riverhounds because he didn't have a United States Soccer Federation National A coaching license", I don't necessarily think the article was a spin piece. From everything I've seen and read, he's a great coach and has found success everywhere.  Hell, if the United States Naval Academy allowed him to coach a course on leadership, and award him an honorary degree, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and would certainly allow my son to play for him. 
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on April 08, 2018, 06:29:35 PM
Oh he's absolutely a great coach. The spin in that article is why he left the Riverhounds. I don't think he's leaving from all I read if he's not ruled ineligible to coach. But yeah, this is a huge get for Hope. I think they are going to be competitors in a few years. We'll see if he sticks around or tries to move up again.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NEsoccerfan on April 08, 2018, 08:14:46 PM
I found it amusing that he is wearing Navy insignia pants withthe Hope jacket in all those pictures haha
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on April 08, 2018, 10:17:21 PM
Well, it's not that far of a reach. After all, Hope's symbol is an anchor. ;)
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on April 10, 2018, 12:38:36 AM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on April 02, 2018, 03:25:34 PM
I'm not saying the NCAA isn't prone to fairly vague and easy to misinterpret rules, but just from the context... band, musical instrument, artificial noisemaker... Is it possible that there has never been a stipulation that these noisemakers, bands or other types of cheering are permissible? Is it not possible that some coach or AD is annoyed with the advantage afforded to the MD's of the world and tried to get something on the books to forbid it? And that this bullet is specifically telling those fun-burglars to shove off?

With that said, I do see the possible loophole being created here, and it's a valid point. I guess some lawyer could come in and defend jet engine-level noise being blasted at the opposing team during warm-ups as being permissible. But, wow, that would be a pretty significant stretch, no?

=-=-=-=-=

You kind of burned a lot of words on something I'd already stipulated to: the center ref shouldn't be the one keeping track of time. Just like they aren't in any other count-down sport. There should be an official timekeeper and they should be stopping the clock on every whistle. Period. Yeah, you'll have a few user error slippages, but nothing like what happens with the center ref system.

(As a final aside, you took a borderline personal approach to responding to a pretty innocuous comment. You might want to chill with putting "you people" into a response as it's unnecessarily confrontational, particularly when I've hedged twice in that post by saying I don't feel that strongly AND that I thought good points were being made on the other side of the argument.)


There was nothin personal or confrontational about my response nor was it meant to be. If you took it that way that is your issue not mine but thanks for the advice. If the initial comment was so innocuous then why feel the need to "hedge" in the first place? Even if you do not care about the topic one way or another a flat out opinion is much more interesting and respected than a hedge.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on April 10, 2018, 01:08:25 AM
Well at least we got an answer to my initial question on why he left Navy...I also do not think this was a spin piece. These type of pieces are common for new additions to your staff especially if the new addition has the accolades that Brandt does in coaching. A piece like this would never bring up the whole license issue at Pittsburgh.  I found it almost edgy that a piece like this would even bring up the fact that he worked these kids so hard in Spring training they were vomiting. That tells me 2 things. 1. He is breaking these kids hard to see what he has and 2. These kids were not used to a coach that really put a ton of emphasis on fitness. HE MUST HAVE kids the fittest they will ever be in their lives to play the style he will want to play.  I do agree with you that he would have never left Pittsburgh if the license issue had not come up but for us neutrals this certainly will make the 2018 D3 Soccer season and the MIAA league in general much more closely followed on my end. That is the best hedge I can muster
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 10, 2018, 11:27:37 AM
Just a note that maybe you all knew already... but the person who replaced him at Navy... was a DIII guy. Stevens' former coach.

Called a game there last year for Navy Sports. Always enjoying putting my DIII notes on my game sheets on those occasions and then getting them into the broadcast.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on April 10, 2018, 10:36:42 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 10, 2018, 11:27:37 AM
Just a note that maybe you all knew already... but the person who replaced him at Navy... was a DIII guy. Stevens' former coach.

Called a game there last year for Navy Sports. Always enjoying putting my DIII notes on my game sheets on those occasions and then getting them into the broadcast.

Unfortunately, Navy soccer has pretty much tanked since Brandt left.  They are 7-22-6 the last two seasons under the former Stevens coach's leadership.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 10, 2018, 11:39:41 PM
Yeah - I haven't been impressed with the "success" of the team. I am just glad to insert DIII stuff when I can without people realizing I'm doing it. LOL

We shall see where the program goes from there. Their home field is a unique and cool place to see a game at... especially if a couple of boats, even frigates, show up.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Hopkins92 on April 11, 2018, 01:07:51 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on April 10, 2018, 12:38:36 AM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on April 02, 2018, 03:25:34 PM
I'm not saying the NCAA isn't prone to fairly vague and easy to misinterpret rules, but just from the context... band, musical instrument, artificial noisemaker... Is it possible that there has never been a stipulation that these noisemakers, bands or other types of cheering are permissible? Is it not possible that some coach or AD is annoyed with the advantage afforded to the MD's of the world and tried to get something on the books to forbid it? And that this bullet is specifically telling those fun-burglars to shove off?

With that said, I do see the possible loophole being created here, and it's a valid point. I guess some lawyer could come in and defend jet engine-level noise being blasted at the opposing team during warm-ups as being permissible. But, wow, that would be a pretty significant stretch, no?

=-=-=-=-=

You kind of burned a lot of words on something I'd already stipulated to: the center ref shouldn't be the one keeping track of time. Just like they aren't in any other count-down sport. There should be an official timekeeper and they should be stopping the clock on every whistle. Period. Yeah, you'll have a few user error slippages, but nothing like what happens with the center ref system.

(As a final aside, you took a borderline personal approach to responding to a pretty innocuous comment. You might want to chill with putting "you people" into a response as it's unnecessarily confrontational, particularly when I've hedged twice in that post by saying I don't feel that strongly AND that I thought good points were being made on the other side of the argument.)


There was nothin personal or confrontational about my response nor was it meant to be. If you took it that way that is your issue not mine but thanks for the advice. If the initial comment was so innocuous then why feel the need to "hedge" in the first place? Even if you do not care about the topic one way or another a flat out opinion is much more interesting and respected than a hedge.

Since you didn't include the comments you are referring to, let me point a couple of things out.

QuoteUmm ok but artificial noisemakers as u define them like "cowbells" or whatever have always been allowed..When has that ever been a problem? Why the need to include this then? I take artificial noisemakers as a pretty broad definition.

People like yourself MAKE the time issue a big deal.

That's a sarcastic comment to open up ("Umm ok"), followed by the use of "yourself," a word which is defined as "you personally, to emphasize the person being addressed."  So, no, that's not me jumping ahead or misinterpreting anything.

My response to you was pedantic. I'll own that and move on.

Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: truenorth on April 11, 2018, 04:08:14 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 10, 2018, 11:39:41 PM
Yeah - I haven't been impressed with the "success" of the team. I am just glad to insert DIII stuff when I can without people realizing I'm doing it. LOL

We shall see where the program goes from there. Their home field is a unique and cool place to see a game at... especially if a couple of boats, even frigates, show up.

I would like to share that back in 2005, when O'Donohue was coaching a very successful program at Stevens, he aggressively recruited my son after the Region 1 tournament.  My son was fortunate to show well in the tournament and received a lot of D1 and D3 attention before committing to Brown, but O'Donohue stood out as someone who was friendly, positive and persistent throughout the process.  I only spoke with him on the phone and have never met him in person, but he made a very positive impression on me.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on April 21, 2018, 07:56:08 PM
North Park played a friendly against D1 Bradley this afternoon that ended in a scoreless tie. Given how little outside work the Vikings have been able to get due to the abysmal weather that has plagued the spring practice cycle, they looked pretty creditable today.

Bradley went 11-7-3 in 2017, so that's not a bad showing for NPU.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NEsoccerfan on April 21, 2018, 10:38:31 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on April 21, 2018, 07:56:08 PM
North Park played a friendly against D1 Bradley this afternoon that ended in a scoreless tie. Given how little outside work the Vikings have been able to get due to the abysmal weather that has plagued the spring practice cycle, they looked pretty creditable today.

Bradley went 11-7-3 in 2017, so that's not a bad showing for NPU.

Love to hear when D3 programs can pull out a result against D1s. Any other spring D3 v. D1 scrimmage results to report?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on April 22, 2018, 11:43:10 PM
Messiah Instagram reports Messiah lost to Bucknell University 1-0 this weekend.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Goldenrj on April 26, 2018, 02:37:58 PM
Hampden-Sydney beat D1 Longwood 4-0.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on April 27, 2018, 09:36:07 AM
Quote from: Goldenrj on April 26, 2018, 02:37:58 PM
Hampden-Sydney beat D1 Longwood 4-0.

At first I was impressed, until I see that Longwood was 1-15-2 and were outscored 11-40 last season. :o
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on April 27, 2018, 12:18:21 PM
... and there's only 18 players on Longwood's spring roster, including only three players who registered a point last season. The starting goalkeeper's gone as well.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on April 27, 2018, 01:44:23 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on April 22, 2018, 11:43:10 PM
Messiah Instagram reports Messiah lost to Bucknell University 1-0 this weekend.

I didn't see this game myself, but someone who did told me this: Both teams played well with at least a few scoring chances, but Falcons didn't do as much as they could have with theirs. On the Falcon side of the ball, lots of people playing new positions. (They are losing five starters to graduation, and I think he said that at least one key returning player, Shea Quintin,  did not play owing to injury.) Bucknell scored in the second half when Messiah's target was manhandled and lost the ball, leading to a quick counterattack with a very nice finish.

That's all I know. If anyone actually saw it, I'd love to hear another opinion.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on April 27, 2018, 02:10:44 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on April 27, 2018, 12:18:21 PM
... and there's only 18 players on Longwood's spring roster, including only three players who registered a point last season. The starting goalkeeper's gone as well.

I've got 1 year of eligibility left.  Maybe I'll look at some graduate classes  :P
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on April 27, 2018, 03:44:15 PM
LOL!
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on April 29, 2018, 02:25:27 PM
So, as it turned out, the NCAA decided not to have the refs keep time on the field after all.

Good call, NCAA!  (I don't get to write that very often.)

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/harsher-illegal-participation-penalties-approved-soccer
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Goldenrj on April 30, 2018, 08:55:35 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on April 27, 2018, 12:18:21 PM
... and there's only 18 players on Longwood's spring roster, including only three players who registered a point last season. The starting goalkeeper's gone as well.
Yeah, not a good team. It does show that decent D3 teams can beat bottom D1 teams.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on May 10, 2018, 12:06:19 AM
Quote from: Falconer on April 27, 2018, 01:44:23 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on April 22, 2018, 11:43:10 PM
Messiah Instagram reports Messiah lost to Bucknell University 1-0 this weekend.

I didn't see this game myself, but someone who did told me this: Both teams played well with at least a few scoring chances, but Falcons didn't do as much as they could have with theirs. On the Falcon side of the ball, lots of people playing new positions. (They are losing five starters to graduation, and I think he said that at least one key returning player, Shea Quintin,  did not play owing to injury.) Bucknell scored in the second half when Messiah's target was manhandled and lost the ball, leading to a quick counterattack with a very nice finish.

That's all I know. If anyone actually saw it, I'd love to hear another opinion.

Report I got was Messiah had 2 SOG's for the game.  And the Bucknell goal came off of a pass to a back who mishandled it.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Hopkins92 on July 10, 2018, 04:50:32 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on April 29, 2018, 02:25:27 PM
So, as it turned out, the NCAA decided not to have the refs keep time on the field after all.

Good call, NCAA!  (I don't get to write that very often.)

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/harsher-illegal-participation-penalties-approved-soccer

Not really directly relevant, but time wasting is one of my pet peeves about soccer (and it happens a lot on all levels.)

538 just came out with this re: FIFA and stoppage time: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/world-cup-stoppage-time-is-wildly-inaccurate/

TL:DR - Basically the average amount of stoppage added is around 6 minutes, which includes both halves. By 538s estimation, it should be close to double at around 13 minutes a game.

Keep in mind, they capped a lot of this by not starting the time wasting until, say, 20 seconds after a ball went out of bounds, or 60 seconds after a goal. I'm not really sure why, because the point is that timekeeping is ridiculous in the FIFA system. It's slightly less problematic in NCAA and high school leagues that use a scoreboard, but it's still THE WORST in comparison to other sports that keep a clock... By a really wide margin.

Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on July 10, 2018, 08:49:11 PM
Quote from: Hopkins92 on July 10, 2018, 04:50:32 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on April 29, 2018, 02:25:27 PM
So, as it turned out, the NCAA decided not to have the refs keep time on the field after all.

Good call, NCAA!  (I don't get to write that very often.)

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/harsher-illegal-participation-penalties-approved-soccer

Not really directly relevant, but time wasting is one of my pet peeves about soccer (and it happens a lot on all levels.)

538 just came out with this re: FIFA and stoppage time: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/world-cup-stoppage-time-is-wildly-inaccurate/

TL:DR - Basically the average amount of stoppage added is around 6 minutes, which includes both halves. By 538s estimation, it should be close to double at around 13 minutes a game.

Keep in mind, they capped a lot of this by not starting the time wasting until, say, 20 seconds after a ball went out of bounds, or 60 seconds after a goal. I'm not really sure why, because the point is that timekeeping is ridiculous in the FIFA system. It's slightly less problematic in NCAA and high school leagues that use a scoreboard, but it's still THE WORST in comparison to other sports that keep a clock... By a really wide margin.

I don't say this very often, but fivethirtyeight missed a very important point in this article. One might even say they missed the most important point. In a 90 minute game, plus stoppage time, the point is the ball is supposed to be in play for about 60 minutes. Stoppage time is supposed to make up for minutes under 60, not minutes under 90 less some variance. 90 minutes by itself builds in a lot of the time fivethirtyeight is complaining about. That is why FIFA, as late as 2017, was having roundtable discussions about going to two 30 minute, stopped clock for out of play, halves. It was brought up around the Confed Cup last year as an alternative. It hasn't gone very far yet, but FIFA wants 60 minutes of game play. Whether that is done with the current system, or with a stopped clock system, is something that is being studied at some level, though it will be very hard to change the existing tradition.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/soccer/2017/06/18/fifa-panel-invites-debate-on-radical-60-minute-game-clock/102990272/

Regardless, the fivethirtyeight article actual shows it's not too bad as it is. If you add up the minutes in play column and the stoppage time actual, you get around 60 minutes in most games. Looks like the lowest is around 55 minutes and the highest around 70 minutes. If you go by their stoppage time expected, you'd be way over in almost every case, between 65 and 75 minutes in just about every game.

Fivethirtyeight let someone who misunderstands the purpose of a 90 minute game, in a very fundamental way, screw up this article. That's a shame.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: oldonionbag on August 07, 2018, 03:45:07 PM
I know these don't mean much of anything this far out...but the preseason rankings are out: http://unitedsoccercoaches.org/web/Rankings/College_Rankings/NCAA_DIII_MEN/web/Rankings/NCAA/DIII_MEN.aspx?hkey=8152a37c-dcf4-4681-b87d-1404b6d21915
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on August 07, 2018, 04:23:58 PM
Quote from: oldonionbag on August 07, 2018, 03:45:07 PM
I know these don't mean much of anything this far out...but the preseason rankings are out: http://unitedsoccercoaches.org/web/Rankings/College_Rankings/NCAA_DIII_MEN/web/Rankings/NCAA/DIII_MEN.aspx?hkey=8152a37c-dcf4-4681-b87d-1404b6d21915

While technically just released on August 7th, they were in fact first published on December 6th... https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/soccer-men/d3/united-soccer-coaches

I wish they would do an actual preseason poll.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TyWebb on August 13, 2018, 08:38:55 AM
Here is a link to the Men's and Women's 2018 Preseason conference polls. The only conference posted so far is the CCIW which was discussed in the CCIW thread.

http://www.d3soccer.com/notables/2018/Preseason-Conference-Polls
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ron Boerger on August 18, 2018, 09:10:39 AM
Former Trinity (TX)/MLS defender Lance Key is returning to the sidelines of his alma mater on a part-time basis, this time on the men's side, per his Instagram post.   After completing his MLS career, Key had coached the Trinity women (2004-2016, national finals in 2013) prior to departing for other opportunities.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on August 23, 2018, 05:20:48 PM
FWIW, last night Messiah defeated Rutgers-Newark 2-1 in Newark.  The final score is all I know at this point.  Messiah will host Randolph-Macon Saturday afternoon in another preseason match.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NEPAFAN on August 24, 2018, 05:46:41 PM
Muhlenberg played Scranton yesterday, but I don't have the result.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on September 02, 2018, 11:29:15 PM
Two ranked teams, #3 Chicago and #17 Trinity (TX), are headed to overtime tied at 3-3 in San Antonio.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on September 02, 2018, 11:44:34 PM
Double reds meted out with 36 seconds to go in the first OT, so the Maroons and Tigers will play ten-on-ten.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on September 02, 2018, 11:47:15 PM
What a game!
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on September 02, 2018, 11:48:39 PM
You said it.

I'd hate to be playing in the south Texas heat, nighttime or not.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on September 02, 2018, 11:52:45 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 02, 2018, 11:48:39 PM
You said it.

I'd hate to be playing in the south Texas heat, nighttime or not.

Agreed. If I played, I would take the occasional 30 degree tournament game over 80 plus and humid. You can always put on more layers (within reason)!
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on September 03, 2018, 12:09:16 AM
Match finishes in a 3-3 draw.

You'd think that a Labor Day weekend contest in San Antonio would favor Trinity (TX) in terms of weather conditions, since the Tigers are used to that sort of heat. There was indeed a lot of cramping out there, but it actually seemed as though the Tigers were more sapped by the heat and the extra minutes than the Maroons were. Chicago had three great chances in the second bonus period -- two by Koh, one by Lopez -- but couldn't connect. All three chances seemed to be predicated upon Tigers defenders dragging a bit.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: cmackowiakSGSN on September 05, 2018, 08:39:16 AM
In my preseason coverage for The Flyer at Salisbury University, I took a look at the impact of SU head coach Alex Hargrove's first recruiting class as a head coach, now all juniors. Here is my team preview for the season ahead:
https://thesuflyer.com/2018/09/04/hargroves-first-recruits-lead-journey-into-programs-new-era/ (https://thesuflyer.com/2018/09/04/hargroves-first-recruits-lead-journey-into-programs-new-era/)

Also, here is a recap from the team's 3-0 win over Neumann University. The SU defense seems to be clicking despite replacing three starters on the backline. https://thesuflyer.com/2018/09/05/eriksens-brace-leads-su-to-another-3-0-victory/ (https://thesuflyer.com/2018/09/05/eriksens-brace-leads-su-to-another-3-0-victory/)
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ommadawn on September 05, 2018, 11:01:45 PM
Quote from: EB2319 on March 28, 2018, 09:05:21 AM
I love that Hartwick scheduled Messiah and I'd be curious to see who else they're picking up out of conference.  I would imagine Oneonta, which is another great measuring stick. Would love to see St. Lawrence too.

Messiah handled Hartwick 3-0 tonight, outshooting Hawks 25-1.  What is noteworthy is that Hartwick retained only 1 player (!!!) from last year's D1 roster.  Hartwick is playing a ragtag schedule of D2 and D3 opponents.  It's kind of sad to see what has happened to a storied program.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on September 06, 2018, 12:03:34 AM
Quote from: Ommadawn on September 05, 2018, 11:01:45 PM
Quote from: EB2319 on March 28, 2018, 09:05:21 AM
I love that Hartwick scheduled Messiah and I'd be curious to see who else they're picking up out of conference.  I would imagine Oneonta, which is another great measuring stick. Would love to see St. Lawrence too.

Messiah handled Hartwick 3-0 tonight, outshooting Hawks 25-1.  What is noteworthy is that Hartwick retained only 1 player (!!!) from last year's D1 roster.  Hartwick is playing a ragtag schedule of D2 and D3 opponents.  It's kind of sad to see what has happened to a storied program.

Not surprising they only have one player from last year's squad. Those others were getting some kind of scholarship (who knows how much) and probably felt they could go elsewhere and still play D1 (not going to start that convo about if that is truly a smart way of thinking). I didn't expect Hartwick to have much of a roster nor a schedule this year as they are pulling back to DIII FAST ... not easy.

They will build back eventually. They need to forget the past and move on in what is a far better situation than they have been in the past despite being in D1. It will take some time, but it will happen.

That said, how storied have they really been of late? They made the NCAA tournament three times this century and haven't been to the quarterfinals since 1986. I know they were great once, but I think the smart move was to get them back to DIII. I honestly feel Hobart lacrosse should do the same ... but I digress.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 07, 2018, 06:44:25 PM
Big doubleheader at Lynchburg on the award winning Lynchburg Sports Network....Roanoke up 1-0 on Christopher Newport with under 20 to go....Dickinson vs Lynchburg in the nightcap hopefully with the best in D3, Joe Hurtzler, on the call.  Great commercials too.

Elsewhere, Lycoming at Carnegie Mellon at 7:00 could be a good one....Hope at Ohio Northern will be interesting for Brandt fans....Wash U is at DePauw....Hanover at Capital....GAC at Luther...

What to make of Gordon...lost to ECSU...
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 07, 2018, 06:45:30 PM
And Roanoke goes up 2-0....CNU with 15 min to get back in it...
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 07, 2018, 06:51:30 PM
Chaos in Lynchburg... Roanoke player loses his mind....PK for CNU....2-1 with 12 to go

Announcer:  "...the tension is so tense you can cut it with a knife"
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on September 07, 2018, 07:21:21 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 07, 2018, 06:51:30 PM
Chaos in Lynchburg... Roanoke player loses his mind....PK for CNU....2-1 with 12 to go

Announcer:  "...the tension is so tense you can cut it with a knife"

Just checked the box score and saw this...
2nd   77:37   Andrew Maeso (unassisted) - *Fracas in box after keeper control


BTW, looks like CNU played 27 players with 22 getting 30+ minutes!
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 07, 2018, 09:01:04 PM
Capital really 7-1 over Hanover?  Solid.  John Carroll struggling with 2-0 loss to Penn St-B....DePauw nips snakebit Wash U....CMU very excellent win 2-0 last I checked over Lycoming....Kenyon up 5-0 on Wilmington....Lynchburg pulls one back against Dickinson...
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 07, 2018, 09:08:31 PM
Also spoke too soon.  CMU GK has great save on a free kick with 25 secs left to preserve win....CMU all set with 1-0-1 already with teams that likely will be ranked for tourney purposes....go 3-3-1 in UAA and a bid is locked up.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on September 07, 2018, 09:11:25 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 07, 2018, 06:44:25 PM
What to make of Gordon...lost to ECSU...

I saw that result. After the Brandeis result (and Endicott's 0-3 start, albeit playing 3 solid sides) I thought they might be the new de facto CCC favorite. However, upon further reflection, it may be a bit early to draw that conclusion. (Realistically, it is definitely too early to draw any conclusions.)

On Sunday's game, it was a disappointing result for Judges fans, but I think the result was ultimately a combination of Brandeis having an off night and Gordon being opportunistic. Don't get me wrong, the Fighting Scots beat Brandeis fair and square, and were certainly worthy of the lead at the half, but as another poster suggested they were fortunate to not concede the equalizer after the interval. To be fair, it's also much too early to say the Judges are worthy of a return to the Final 4, either, so perhaps the teams are closer than some would have thought, despite Brandeis entering the game with a #4 USC ranking. I guess my point is more that Gordon certainly rode its luck en route to the result (as all teams must, at times) and that things could have gone differently on a different day (as they always can).

Anyway, after Sunday, I was curious to see how they fared against Fitchburg State on Wednesday, and while they got out with a 2-1 road win I perhaps expected them to score a bit more. (Perhaps I'm expecting too much -- I've seen my own team eek out one-goal victories on the road against opposition I thought they'd beat by more.) Regardless, I thought they'd win by more against an unspectacular Fitchburg side. ECSU is certainly never an easy place to go, but once they dug a 2-0 hole (with two quickfire goals against) it was always going to be a long way back.

With today's result, now they're back to .500 with a tough game against Colby next on the docket. They also face tough non-conference tests against Springfield and Amherst, so there won't be much margin for error in the rest of their schedule.

All told, I think this is a solid team, although perhaps not ready to be anointed as CCC favorites yet.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on September 07, 2018, 09:15:38 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 07, 2018, 09:08:31 PM
Also spoke too soon.  CMU GK has great save on a free kick with 25 secs left to preserve win....CMU all set with 1-0-1 already with teams that likely will be ranked for tourney purposes....go 3-3-1 in UAA and a bid is locked up.

They looked a shoo-in last year in mid-October, but then went 0-1-2 in their last three UAA games, so they can't rest on their laurels. Even at 10-4-3 I thought they'd be OK, but it wasn't to be.

In other news, Paul, I went to see the first three Kenyon goals at 3-0. Got back to live and it was 5-0.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 07, 2018, 09:31:03 PM
Dickinson vs Lynchburg is a barnburner....3-3, under 15 to go....the great Joe Hurtzler on the call...
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on September 07, 2018, 09:37:24 PM
Another 3-3 between CWRU and Geneva.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 07, 2018, 09:46:21 PM
Just love Joe Hurtzler!!!  Hornets 4  Red Devils 3......2:25 to go
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on September 07, 2018, 09:51:53 PM
Hope College beats ONU 1-0.  Moves to 3-0 on the season.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 07, 2018, 09:55:32 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on September 07, 2018, 09:51:53 PM
Hope College beats ONU 1-0.  Moves to 3-0 on the season.

Hopefully Hope is for real.  Would be fantastic for Calvin to get pressured a little more in regular season and for that rivalry to get hot again.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on September 07, 2018, 09:56:39 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 07, 2018, 09:46:21 PM
Just love Joe Hurtzler!!!  Hornets 4  Red Devils 3......2:25 to go

Lots of action in this game. Really entertaining. Lynchburg offense looks really dynamic but defense and goalkeeping mistakes kept Dickinson in it. Spectacular goal from lynchburg..Abibi or however you spell it..bicycle kick off of chest. Really great skill on that goal
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on September 08, 2018, 07:29:33 AM
Quote from: rudy on September 07, 2018, 09:56:39 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 07, 2018, 09:46:21 PM
Just love Joe Hurtzler!!!  Hornets 4  Red Devils 3......2:25 to go

Lots of action in this game. Really entertaining. Lynchburg offense looks really dynamic but defense and goalkeeping mistakes kept Dickinson in it. Spectacular goal from lynchburg..Abibi or however you spell it..bicycle kick off of chest. Really great skill on that goal

Video highlight of the bike.  Completely legit.  http://lynchburgsports.com/sports/msoc/2018-19/releases/20180907yaflqf
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 08, 2018, 07:43:37 AM
Quote from: EB2319 on September 08, 2018, 07:29:33 AM
Quote from: rudy on September 07, 2018, 09:56:39 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 07, 2018, 09:46:21 PM
Just love Joe Hurtzler!!!  Hornets 4  Red Devils 3......2:25 to go

Lots of action in this game. Really entertaining. Lynchburg offense looks really dynamic but defense and goalkeeping mistakes kept Dickinson in it. Spectacular goal from lynchburg..Abibi or however you spell it..bicycle kick off of chest. Really great skill on that goal

Video highlight of the bike.  Completely legit.  http://lynchburgsports.com/sports/msoc/2018-19/releases/20180907yaflqf

That video and if you scroll down further for the postgame interview give a nice peek at the work of Joe Hurtzler, the voice of Hornet sports....love him telling the kid he'd try to get him on Sportscenter...wonder if he did...
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 08, 2018, 07:49:29 AM
I think I've expressed surprise before at limited fan participation on this site from the ODAC...very exciting action and style at least in top half of that league...I don't recall much consistent attention except for our W&L participant and mentions here and there from encounters with NJAC savants and Messiah fans.

If ODAC was in New England our contingent up here would talk about it all the time....a mix between NESCAC, NEWMAC, with a dash of GNAC or CCC.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NEPAFAN on September 08, 2018, 09:54:28 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 08, 2018, 07:43:37 AM
Quote from: EB2319 on September 08, 2018, 07:29:33 AM
Quote from: rudy on September 07, 2018, 09:56:39 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 07, 2018, 09:46:21 PM
Just love Joe Hurtzler!!!  Hornets 4  Red Devils 3......2:25 to go

Lots of action in this game. Really entertaining. Lynchburg offense looks really dynamic but defense and goalkeeping mistakes kept Dickinson in it. Spectacular goal from lynchburg..Abibi or however you spell it..bicycle kick off of chest. Really great skill on that goal

Video highlight of the bike.  Completely legit.  http://lynchburgsports.com/sports/msoc/2018-19/releases/20180907yaflqf

That video and if you scroll down further for the postgame interview give a nice peek at the work of Joe Hurtzler, the voice of Hornet sports....love him telling the kid he'd try to get him on Sportscenter...wonder if he did...

That has to be a sportscenter  top 10. Holy Cow!
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on September 08, 2018, 10:47:04 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 08, 2018, 07:49:29 AM
I think I've expressed surprise before at limited fan participation on this site from the ODAC...very exciting action and style at least in top half of that league...I don't recall much consistent attention except for our W&L participant and mentions here and there from encounters with NJAC savants and Messiah fans.

If ODAC was in New England our contingent up here would talk about it all the time....a mix between NESCAC, NEWMAC, with a dash of GNAC or CCC.

I love the ODAC and started loosely following it last year when my daughter started her college search.  We visited a bunch of ODAC schools and I've been impressed with their academic programs and sports facilities (even though she's not an athlete). 
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 08, 2018, 08:14:24 PM
Gonna pick Emory as a sleeper Final Four choice.  Looks like the UAA is going to be a monster again this season.  Chicago, Emory, CMU looking very good.  Who knows about Rochester.  CWRU doing OK.  Brandeis down right now but I'm sure will be tough in-conference. 

Meanwhile Calvin is crushing Ohio Northern at ONU 5-0 in just the first half.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 4samuy on September 08, 2018, 08:23:23 PM
Yeah. Pretty impressive 4 straight on the road for Chicago (southwestern,trinity, Benedictine and north park) and still games with Wheaton, Loras and Calvin before UAA play.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on September 08, 2018, 09:32:24 PM
Emory is susceptible to defensive lapses. W&L just about had them in Atlanta last week do to those lapses. They need to tighten up in the back if they want to contend at that Final 4 level.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 09, 2018, 11:13:24 AM
Calvin beats ONU 9-2  :o
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on September 09, 2018, 07:09:54 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 07, 2018, 09:55:32 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on September 07, 2018, 09:51:53 PM
Hope College beats ONU 1-0.  Moves to 3-0 on the season.

Hopefully Hope is for real.  Would be fantastic for Calvin to get pressured a little more in regular season and for that rivalry to get hot again.

Hope College beat Millikin 3-0 yesterday.  Moves to 4-0 on the season.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: cmackowiakSGSN on September 10, 2018, 05:16:18 AM
Attacking midfielder Dolph Hegewisch has been a creative force for Salisbury University since stepping on their field two years ago. This year though he had to discover a new way to aid his team toward their main goal.

https://thesuflyer.com/2018/09/10/hegewisch-takes-on-new-role-with-su-midfield/ (https://thesuflyer.com/2018/09/10/hegewisch-takes-on-new-role-with-su-midfield/)
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 10, 2018, 03:12:29 PM
When do Top 25 polls come out? This week? Will post my own thoughts of the early season here today or tomorrow  ;D
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 10, 2018, 03:20:40 PM
MAF Top 25 (9/10)
1. Chicago (3-0-1)
2. Messiah (3-0-1)
3. Calvin (4-0-0)
4. Lynchburg (4-0-0)
5. Mary Washington (5-0-0)
6. Amherst (2-0-0)
7. Tufts (2-0-0)
8. F&M (4-0-0)
9. St. Joe's (Maine) (5-0-0)
10. Emory (4-0-0)
11. Trinity (2-0-1)
12. St. Thomas (4-0-0)
13. OWU (3-0-0)
14. Rochester (3-0-0)
15. Loras (2-0-0)
16. Kenyon (3-0-1)
17. St. Lawrence (3-0-1)
18. CMU (3-0-1)
19. Hopkins (4-1-0)
20. Stevens (4-1-0)
21. St Marys (Md) (3-0-2)
22. Cortland St (2-0-2)
23. Wheaton (Ill) (1-0-1)
24. Hope (4-0-0)
25.  Luther (5-0-0)
RV: Dickinson, Lycoming, Centre, Clarkson, TCNJ, St. Norbert, Occidental, WPI, Buff St, DePauw, Capital, RIT, Hamilton, CT College, Williams, Ithaca, William Patterson
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 4samuy on September 10, 2018, 04:44:06 PM
Not sure.  Did see current Massey Ratings are out and had the same top 10,11 or so, just in different spots other than Rochester who I think was in the top ten.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: OldNed on September 11, 2018, 01:54:17 PM
United Soccer Coaches rankings are out: https://www.ncaa.com/rankings/soccer-men/d3/united-soccer-coaches


RANK   SCHOOL   PREV.   W-L-T
1   Messiah   1   3-0-1
2   Chicago   3   3-0-1
3   Tufts   5   2-0-0
4   St. Thomas   6   4-0-0
5   Calvin   7   3-0-0
6   Rochester   9   3-0-0
7   Emory   8   4-0-0
8   Kenyon   22   3-0-1
9   Trinity (Texas)   17   2-0-1
10   Amherst   10   2-0-0
11   Lynchburg   21   4-0-0
12   North Park   NR   2-1-0
13   Franklin & Marshall   NR   4-0-0
14   Carnegie Mellon   NR   3-0-1
15   Mary Hardin-Baylor   16   4-0-0
16   SUNY Cortland   23   2-0-2
17   Saint Joseph's College (Maine)   25   5-0-0
18   Luther   NR   5-0-0
19   Mary Washington   NR   5-0-0
20   St. Lawrence   NR   3-0-1
21   Johns Hopkins   13   4-1-0
22   Capital   NR   2-1-0
23   St. Norbert   NR   4-0-0
24   Claremont-Mudd-Scripps   NR   3-0-0
25   Ohio Wesleyan   NR   3-0-0
Also receiving votes: Lycoming, College of New Jersey, Hope, Connecticut College , Redlands, Otterbein
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on September 11, 2018, 02:10:10 PM
Quote from: OldNed on September 11, 2018, 01:54:17 PM
14   Carnegie Mellon   NR   3-0-1

Must've been that 10-0 win on Sunday. sarcasm

Quote from: jknezek on September 08, 2018, 09:32:24 PM
Emory is susceptible to defensive lapses. W&L just about had them in Atlanta last week do to those lapses. They need to tighten up in the back if they want to contend at that Final 4 level.

Wow. I didn't notice that Emory's OT win over W&L was 5-4. They have been impressive so far this season, and no doubt they get it done offensively, but 4 goals conceded will be a bit concerning (then again, top teams Trinity (TX) and Chicago played to a 3-3 draw). They've got a lot of good players, though I think Khattab is the best by a stretch, and will be a marked man.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on September 11, 2018, 02:34:45 PM
Quote from: cmackowiakSGSN on September 10, 2018, 05:16:18 AM
Attacking midfielder Dolph Hegewisch has been a creative force for Salisbury University since stepping on their field two years ago. This year though he had to discover a new way to aid his team toward their main goal.

https://thesuflyer.com/2018/09/10/hegewisch-takes-on-new-role-with-su-midfield/ (https://thesuflyer.com/2018/09/10/hegewisch-takes-on-new-role-with-su-midfield/)

As it seems you are a Salisbury fan I do have a couple questions. Is it just me or has Salisbury really dropped off since Gerry Dibartolo's departure after the 2015 season? IIRC they lost to Tufts in the NCAA's that year. Point is they were a constant in the NCAA's and winning their league along with York(PA) and they have been under .500 the past 2 years. This year has been a good start but they have not really played anyone yet. I know Salisbury is a Lax school but I also know that Dibartolo made Men's Soccer a force in that region. Maryland is just a hotbed of soccer talent and am curious if the new Head Coach is taking longer to assimilate or if he is not getting the same type of talent into the program?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Domino1195 on September 11, 2018, 05:24:57 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 10, 2018, 03:20:40 PM
MAF Top 25 (9/10)
1. Chicago (3-0-1)
2. Messiah (3-0-1)
3. Calvin (4-0-0)
4. Lynchburg (4-0-0)
5. Mary Washington (5-0-0)
6. Amherst (2-0-0)
7. Tufts (2-0-0)
8. F&M (4-0-0)
9. St. Joe's (Maine) (5-0-0)
10. Emory (4-0-0)
11. Trinity (2-0-1)
12. St. Thomas (4-0-0)
13. OWU (3-0-0)
14. Rochester (3-0-0)
15. Loras (2-0-0)
16. Kenyon (3-0-1)
17. St. Lawrence (3-0-1)
18. CMU (3-0-1)
19. Hopkins (4-1-0)
20. Stevens (4-1-0)
21. St Marys (Md) (3-0-2)
22. Cortland St (2-0-2)
23. Wheaton (Ill) (1-0-1)
24. Hope (4-0-0)
25.  Luther (5-0-0)
RV: Dickinson, Lycoming, Centre, Clarkson, TCNJ, St. Norbert, Occidental, WPI, Buff St, DePauw, Capital, RIT, Hamilton, CT College, Williams, Ithaca, William Patterson

Otterbein drops out completely ? Transylvania road win, Oberlin appears to be in trouble. Going to
the Thomas More game tonight. We shall see
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on September 11, 2018, 09:04:10 PM
Am seeing that correctly.  Texas Lutheran is beating Trinity (Tx.) 3-1 midway through the second half!  Twice as many shots (15 to 8), half on frame (SOG 7-1).
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on September 11, 2018, 09:06:52 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on September 11, 2018, 09:04:10 PM
Am seeing that correctly.  Texas Lutheran is beating Trinity (Tx.) 3-1 midway through the second half!  Twice as many shots (15 to 8), half on frame (SOG 7-1).

That appears to be correct, but looks like it was postponed at 61:59.

https://portal.stretchinternet.com/tlu/stats.htm?eventId=471896&streamType=video
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on September 11, 2018, 09:23:59 PM
From the play-by-play: Game declared no contest with 26:56 to play. lightning delay with 26:56 to play

That's a shame for Texas Lutheran.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 12, 2018, 09:24:17 AM
Quote from: Domino1195 on September 11, 2018, 05:24:57 PM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 10, 2018, 03:20:40 PM
MAF Top 25 (9/10)
1. Chicago (3-0-1)
2. Messiah (3-0-1)
3. Calvin (4-0-0)
4. Lynchburg (4-0-0)
5. Mary Washington (5-0-0)
6. Amherst (2-0-0)
7. Tufts (2-0-0)
8. F&M (4-0-0)
9. St. Joe's (Maine) (5-0-0)
10. Emory (4-0-0)
11. Trinity (2-0-1)
12. St. Thomas (4-0-0)
13. OWU (3-0-0)
14. Rochester (3-0-0)
15. Loras (2-0-0)
16. Kenyon (3-0-1)
17. St. Lawrence (3-0-1)
18. CMU (3-0-1)
19. Hopkins (4-1-0)
20. Stevens (4-1-0)
21. St Marys (Md) (3-0-2)
22. Cortland St (2-0-2)
23. Wheaton (Ill) (1-0-1)
24. Hope (4-0-0)
25.  Luther (5-0-0)
RV: Dickinson, Lycoming, Centre, Clarkson, TCNJ, St. Norbert, Occidental, WPI, Buff St, DePauw, Capital, RIT, Hamilton, CT College, Williams, Ithaca, William Patterson

Otterbein drops out completely ? Transylvania road win, Oberlin appears to be in trouble. Going to
the Thomas More game tonight. We shall see

I am sure I missed many more teams that could have been on the list this early.  :)
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on September 12, 2018, 07:19:28 PM
Big fan of Dickinson introducing their starters to AC/DC's Hells Bells against Messiah...

I won't take no prisoners, won't spare no lives
Nobody's putting up a fight
I got my bell, I'm gonna take you to hell
I'm gonna get you, Satan get you...


Got a chuckle outta me....anyhow Dickinson has some size lets see how they do against the reigning champs
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on September 12, 2018, 07:30:52 PM
1-0 Messiah on a nice run by #11 Nick West. Speed, composure and a left foot was what that goal was all about. Nice run down the left flank. Pretty weak defending by Dickinson as there was a dive-in, missed tackle and not reading the play develop. As typing Messiah gets a 2nd goal...So much for Bon Scott...
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on September 12, 2018, 08:14:15 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on September 12, 2018, 07:19:28 PM
Big fan of Dickinson introducing their starters to AC/DC's Hells Bells against Messiah...

I won't take no prisoners, won't spare no lives
Nobody's putting up a fight
I got my bell, I'm gonna take you to hell
I'm gonna get you, Satan get you...


Got a chuckle outta me....anyhow Dickinson has some size lets see how they do against the reigning champs

I didn't see anything remarkable about it...then I considered the opposition. I'm sure it wasn't intentional, but that is kind of funny.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on September 12, 2018, 08:29:28 PM
They are the Red Devils, so it's fitting.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on September 12, 2018, 08:39:07 PM
Let's face it. The Devils could really use some smoke and deception tonight. On the other end, West just got number 3. His second hat trick this season. Who was that ingoramus who said that moving him out of the wing was a suspect move?  :-X

I don't know whether the Falcons have ever had a player lead the nation in goals, but at this moment that's where West is sitting. Certainly I don't recall any Falcon player even approximately like him, in terms of his mental and physical skill set. David McClellan many years ago was highly mobile and could initiate a scoring play from anywhere--and Kasiguran sometimes made him look even better, with how-could-he-do-that passes. But, DMac didn't have West's wheels, not that anyone else did either. If West doesn't miss a long stretch with an injury, his numbers could be really scary.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on September 13, 2018, 06:21:46 PM
Grove City College beat Oberlin 2-1 yesterday.  Grove City remains undefeated at 3-0-2.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 20, 2018, 08:44:41 AM
Little late but here's my best crack at the Top 25 right now!

Shooter's 25
1. Chicago (7-0-1)
2. Messiah (5-0-1)
3. Trinity (4-0-1)
4. Tufts (5-0-0)
5. Calvin (7-0-0)
6. Kenyon (6-0-1)
7. Rochester (6-0-0)
8. St. Joe's Maine (8-0-0)
9. CMU (5-0-1)
10. Lynchburg (5-0-1)
11. F&M (6-0-1)
12. Emory (7-0-0)
13. MW (6-0-1)
14. St. Norbert (6-0-1)
15. Ithaca (6-0-1)
16. Luther (7-1-0)
17. MHB (6-0-0)
18. North Park (6-1-0)
19. Cortland St (5-0-2)
20. Amherst (2-1-0)
21. TCNJ (7-1-0)
22. CMS (7-0-0)
23. Stevens (7-1-1)
24. Hope (7-0-0)
25. CT College (6-0-0)

RV (No order): Hopkins, Lycoming, CWRU, Rowan, Drew, Salisbury, Oneonta St, Buff St, Mt. Union, St. Lawrence, Williams, PSU-Harrisburg, Ramapo, Montclair, St. Mary's, Roanoke, J&W, WPI, Springfield, Middlebury, Babson, NYU, RIT, Skidmore, Clarkson, Grove City, DePauw, Capital, Spalding, Webster, MSOE, Wheaton (Ill), UWP, Loras, Macalester, Gustavus Adolphus, St. John's, Redlands, Tx Tyler, Willamette, Southwestern 
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blue_jays on September 20, 2018, 09:54:59 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 20, 2018, 08:44:41 AM
Little late but here's my best crack at the Top 25 right now!

Shooter's 25
1. Chicago (7-0-1)
2. Messiah (5-0-1)
3. Trinity (4-0-1)
4. Tufts (5-0-0)
5. Calvin (7-0-0)
6. Kenyon (6-0-1)
7. Rochester (6-0-0)
8. St. Joe's Maine (8-0-0)
9. CMU (5-0-1)
10. Lynchburg (5-0-1)
11. F&M (6-0-1)
12. Emory (7-0-0)
13. MW (6-0-1)
14. St. Norbert (6-0-1)
15. Ithaca (6-0-1)
16. Luther (7-1-0)
17. MHB (6-0-0)
18. North Park (6-1-0)
19. Cortland St (5-0-2)
20. Amherst (2-1-0)
21. TCNJ (7-1-0)
22. CMS (7-0-0)
23. Stevens (7-1-1)
24. Hope (7-0-0)
25. CT College (6-0-0)

RV (No order): Hopkins, Lycoming, CWRU, Rowan, Drew, Salisbury, Oneonta St, Buff St, Mt. Union, St. Lawrence, Williams, PSU-Harrisburg, Ramapo, Montclair, St. Mary's, Roanoke, J&W, WPI, Springfield, Middlebury, Babson, NYU, RIT, Skidmore, Clarkson, Grove City, DePauw, Capital, Spalding, Webster, MSOE, Wheaton (Ill), UWP, Loras, Macalester, Gustavus Adolphus, St. John's, Redlands, Tx Tyler, Willamette, Southwestern

St. Norbert's ranking mystifies me. They beat two CCIW teams having down years. They somehow tied winless Carroll, who just gave up 7 goals in the first half versus Chicago. Not seeing it.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on September 20, 2018, 11:15:25 AM
Chicago vs Calvin looks to be the game of the week early in the season. If either team dominates it would be telling but I expect an even game
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on September 20, 2018, 08:07:04 PM
Messiah v York 0-0 2nd Half just underway....York holding their own with a solid GK..They have what looks to be a stud striker up top...As typing Messiah stud striker Nick West rips a 25 yard set piece into the net. Pretty sweet rip but York GK might have done better to get his hand to that ball. Still a nasty strike
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on September 20, 2018, 08:32:14 PM
York hits the crossbar...Messiah GK way off his line...York starting to threaten net still down 1-0 to Messiah with about 15 minutes left
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 21, 2018, 07:47:44 PM
Watching Tufts vs Brandeis.  Of course game may turn around but hard to see how Brandeis is gonna break down the Jumbos.  Also trying to figure out how to describe these last few Tufts teams and just how strong this program has become.  Maybe a mixture of one of the best Amherst squads, a very top Final Four level NJAC team, with a dash of Messiah but just a dash.  Extremely athletic, huge team and also loads of speed in enough places.  Tremendous depth which will always come into play in the final 20 minutes and OT periods.  Tufts to me looks like a Division 1 defense with good to very good D3 offense.  They will almost never not be in a game, regardless of whether Amherst, Chicago, Messiah, Calvin, Trinity of whoever is on the other side.  Will always have at least a 50/50 chance in Elite 8 or Final Four games because they just do not break down....maintain compact shape, close very fast, and when needed big enough and chippy enough to win a game that way.  Given the overall talent level one can wonder why they don't score more goals, but they seem to make a choice that you're not going to score with confidence that eventually they will get one (or two).  Will not be surprising to see Tufts go very, very deep in the tournament yet again.  A Final Four involving Tufts, Chicago, Messiah and Calvin/Emory/NPU would be a treat.  At a minimum Tufts is on par with Messiah as the top program in the country.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC43 on September 21, 2018, 08:56:29 PM
Just watched the CMU/Grove City game... wow CMU is impressive. Off the ball movement is incredible. Shows the experience these UAA teams gain from playing their tough schedule. I believe Grove City was receiving votes for top 25 (correct me if I'm wrong) but CMU just marched in there and wiped the floor with them. Looking forward to the CMU/Chicago game in a few weeks as I anticipate those will be the top UAA teams this year along with Emory.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on September 22, 2018, 07:03:05 PM
Very good early season game with Chicago nipping Calvin at Calvin 1-0.  These two teams may very well meet again.  Chicago had to hold on a little more than I expected, but Calvin is gritty in addition to being really good.  Have to say I was surprised at the Calvin GK's antics.  Referees should not allow that nonsense...and then it's rewarded and so continues as Lopez missed on the PK.  I'm sure Souders will have a word with him regarding Calvin sportsmanship.

Vegter is the best player in the country.  Full stop.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on September 22, 2018, 07:13:21 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 22, 2018, 07:03:05 PM

Vegter is the best player in the country.  Full stop.

Agreed. He has been that good all the way along since his first year. His cannon throw-ins are a very dangerous weapon, pretty close to those that Otterbein got from their AA defender the year they made it all the way to the final. The Maroon keeper literally had his hands full of near misses. I didn't see every minute of the game, so perhaps I missed something, but otherwise Vegter just shut down the Chicago attacks. Which is saying something.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: repete on September 22, 2018, 07:48:28 PM
Quote from: blue_jays on September 20, 2018, 09:54:59 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 20, 2018, 08:44:41 AM
Little late but here's my best crack at the Top 25 right now!

Shooter's 25
1. Chicago (7-0-1)
2. Messiah (5-0-1)
3. Trinity (4-0-1)
4. Tufts (5-0-0)
5. Calvin (7-0-0)
6. Kenyon (6-0-1)
7. Rochester (6-0-0)
8. St. Joe's Maine (8-0-0)
9. CMU (5-0-1)
10. Lynchburg (5-0-1)
11. F&M (6-0-1)
12. Emory (7-0-0)
13. MW (6-0-1)
14. St. Norbert (6-0-1)
15. Ithaca (6-0-1)
16. Luther (7-1-0)
17. MHB (6-0-0)
18. North Park (6-1-0)
19. Cortland St (5-0-2)
20. Amherst (2-1-0)
21. TCNJ (7-1-0)
22. CMS (7-0-0)
23. Stevens (7-1-1)
24. Hope (7-0-0)
25. CT College (6-0-0)

RV (No order): Hopkins, Lycoming, CWRU, Rowan, Drew, Salisbury, Oneonta St, Buff St, Mt. Union, St. Lawrence, Williams, PSU-Harrisburg, Ramapo, Montclair, St. Mary's, Roanoke, J&W, WPI, Springfield, Middlebury, Babson, NYU, RIT, Skidmore, Clarkson, Grove City, DePauw, Capital, Spalding, Webster, MSOE, Wheaton (Ill), UWP, Loras, Macalester, Gustavus Adolphus, St. John's, Redlands, Tx Tyler, Willamette, Southwestern

St. Norbert's ranking mystifies me. They beat two CCIW teams having down years. They somehow tied winless Carroll, who just gave up 7 goals in the first half versus Chicago. Not seeing it.

And I hope Shooter is right about St. Thomas and the poll.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: d3soccerscout on September 22, 2018, 10:27:05 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on September 22, 2018, 07:03:05 PM
Have to say I was surprised at the Calvin GK's antics.  Referees should not allow that nonsense...and then it's rewarded and so continues as Lopez missed on the PK.  I'm sure Souders will have a word with him regarding Calvin sportsmanship.

I didn't see it as anything to do with sportsmanship, just a bit of gamesmanship. Either way, what a great contest between two top programs decided by a touch of class by Koh. Would love to see these teams match up again late in the fall!
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: cmackowiakSGSN on September 24, 2018, 09:32:38 AM
Before they were Salisbury University Sea Gulls, they were Knights at CCBC Essex across the Chesapeake Bay. Read about the story of four SU men's soccer players and how their journey took them together through junior college soccer to NCAA Division III soccer now as the backbone of the SU defense.

https://thesuflyer.com/2018/09/24/knights-evolve-into-sea-gulls-the-ccbc-essex-defensive-pipeline/ (https://thesuflyer.com/2018/09/24/knights-evolve-into-sea-gulls-the-ccbc-essex-defensive-pipeline/)
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 24, 2018, 03:08:18 PM
Quote from: repete on September 22, 2018, 07:48:28 PM
Quote from: blue_jays on September 20, 2018, 09:54:59 AM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 20, 2018, 08:44:41 AM
Little late but here's my best crack at the Top 25 right now!

Shooter's 25
1. Chicago (7-0-1)
2. Messiah (5-0-1)
3. Trinity (4-0-1)
4. Tufts (5-0-0)
5. Calvin (7-0-0)
6. Kenyon (6-0-1)
7. Rochester (6-0-0)
8. St. Joe's Maine (8-0-0)
9. CMU (5-0-1)
10. Lynchburg (5-0-1)
11. F&M (6-0-1)
12. Emory (7-0-0)
13. MW (6-0-1)
14. St. Norbert (6-0-1)
15. Ithaca (6-0-1)
16. Luther (7-1-0)
17. MHB (6-0-0)
18. North Park (6-1-0)
19. Cortland St (5-0-2)
20. Amherst (2-1-0)
21. TCNJ (7-1-0)
22. CMS (7-0-0)
23. Stevens (7-1-1)
24. Hope (7-0-0)
25. CT College (6-0-0)

RV (No order): Hopkins, Lycoming, CWRU, Rowan, Drew, Salisbury, Oneonta St, Buff St, Mt. Union, St. Lawrence, Williams, PSU-Harrisburg, Ramapo, Montclair, St. Mary's, Roanoke, J&W, WPI, Springfield, Middlebury, Babson, NYU, RIT, Skidmore, Clarkson, Grove City, DePauw, Capital, Spalding, Webster, MSOE, Wheaton (Ill), UWP, Loras, Macalester, Gustavus Adolphus, St. John's, Redlands, Tx Tyler, Willamette, Southwestern

St. Norbert's ranking mystifies me. They beat two CCIW teams having down years. They somehow tied winless Carroll, who just gave up 7 goals in the first half versus Chicago. Not seeing it.

And I hope Shooter is right about St. Thomas and the poll.

Yes the Tommies should have been in there or RV at least. Will try to do better with the next rankings  ;D
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 24, 2018, 03:18:52 PM
Not much change.  :)

Shooter's 25
1. Chicago (8-0-1)
2. Messiah (7-0-1)
3. Trinity (6-0-1)
4. Tufts (6-0-0)
5. Calvin (7-1-0)
6. Kenyon (7-0-1)
7. Rochester (7-0-0)
8. St. Joe's Maine (9-0-0)
9. CMU (6-0-2)
10. Lynchburg (6-0-1)
11. F&M (7-0-1)
12. Emory (7-0-0)
13. MW (7-0-1)
14. St. Norbert (7-0-1)
15. Ithaca (6-0-2)
16. Luther (8-1-0)
17. Cortland St (7-0-2)
18. North Park (6-1-0)
19. CMS (8-0-0)
20. Stevens (8-1-1)
21. Hope (7-0-0)
22. CT College (7-0-0)
23. PSU Harrisburg (10-0-0)
24. CWRU (7-1-0)
25. Roger Williams (9-0-0)

RV (No order): TCNJ, MHB, Lycoming, Drew, Salisbury, Oneonta St, Buff St, Mt. Union, St. Lawrence, Williams, Ramapo, Montclair, St. Mary's, WPI, Springfield, Middlebury, Babson, NYU, Skidmore, Clarkson, Grove City, DePauw, Capital, Wabash, Spalding, Webster, MSOE, UWP, St. Thomas, Loras, Gustavus Adolphus, St. John's, Redlands, Tx Tyler, Willamette, Southwestern
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NEsoccerfan on September 25, 2018, 12:41:43 AM
5 UAA teams in your top 20. Scary, scary looking conference so far this year.

Quote from: Shooter McGavin on September 24, 2018, 03:18:52 PM
Not much change.  :)

Shooter's 25
1. Chicago (8-0-1)
2. Messiah (7-0-1)
3. Trinity (6-0-1)
4. Tufts (6-0-0)
5. Calvin (7-1-0)
6. Kenyon (7-0-1)
7. Rochester (7-0-0)
8. St. Joe's Maine (9-0-0)
9. CMU (6-0-2)
10. Lynchburg (6-0-1)
11. F&M (7-0-1)
12. Emory (7-0-0)
13. MW (7-0-1)
14. St. Norbert (7-0-1)
15. Ithaca (6-0-2)
16. Luther (8-1-0)
17. Cortland St (7-0-2)
18. North Park (6-1-0)
19. CMS (8-0-0)
20. Stevens (8-1-1)
21. Hope (7-0-0)
22. CT College (7-0-0)
23. PSU Harrisburg (10-0-0)
24. CWRU (7-1-0)
25. Roger Williams (9-0-0)

RV (No order): TCNJ, MHB, Lycoming, Drew, Salisbury, Oneonta St, Buff St, Mt. Union, St. Lawrence, Williams, Ramapo, Montclair, St. Mary's, WPI, Springfield, Middlebury, Babson, NYU, Skidmore, Clarkson, Grove City, DePauw, Capital, Wabash, Spalding, Webster, MSOE, UWP, St. Thomas, Loras, Gustavus Adolphus, St. John's, Redlands, Tx Tyler, Willamette, Southwestern
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on September 25, 2018, 07:34:11 AM
Solid list, Shooter.

Emory would be at 5 or 6 for me.
I'd have Cortland State in the top 10 and ahead of URochester.   
CT College needs some more love.
PSU-Harrisburg isn't even top 50, definition of cupcake schedule
TNCJ and Ramapo belong no where near RV.  MSU should be around 18th to 20th.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 25, 2018, 09:24:45 AM
I want in! :D

MAF Top 25
1. Chicago
2. Messiah
3. Tufts
4. Calvin
5. Trinity
6. St. Joe's Me
7. Kenyon
8. Emory
9. F&M
10. Lynchburg
11. Rochester
12. CMU
13. MW
14. Cortland St
15. St. Thomas
16. North Park
17. CT College
18. Montclair St
19. Case Western
20. Lycoming
21. Stevens
22. Hope
23. Luther
24. Ithaca
25. Loras/Oneonta St
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 25, 2018, 09:31:41 AM
UAA
Emory (7-0)
Rochester (7-0)
Chicago (8-0-1)
Carnegie Mellon (6-0-2)
Case Western Reserve (7-1)
New York U. (7-1)
Washington (4-3)
Brandeis (3-4)


How scary is the UAA?!? Combined 49-9-3 record with Brandeis of all teams sitting in dead last...wow!
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC43 on September 25, 2018, 09:38:47 AM
Quote from: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 25, 2018, 09:31:41 AM
UAA
Emory (7-0)
Rochester (7-0)
Chicago (8-0-1)
Carnegie Mellon (6-0-2)
Case Western Reserve (7-1)
New York U. (7-1)
Washington (4-3)
Brandeis (3-4)


How scary is the UAA?!? Combined 49-9-3 record with Brandeis of all teams sitting in dead last...wow!

I remember 3-4 years ago the UAA had 7 of their 8 teams ranked in the top 25. Absolutely crazy. And yes Brandeis at the bottom currently but I've seen them a few times this year and they are far better than their record suggests.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on September 29, 2018, 03:34:28 PM
Crazy result of the day:

New Paltz 5-1 Cortland St

Runner Up:

Coast Guard 2-0 Wheaton(MA)
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Soccerfan on September 29, 2018, 07:21:41 PM
Cortland's keeper got a red card 6 minutes into the match. Cortland went down 1-0 then tied it up with 10 men. Score was 1-1 with about 30-35 min left in the game when New Paltz scored their 2nd goal. Cortland continued to push with 10 players,  but New Paltz caught them with couple of counter attacks and scored.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on September 29, 2018, 10:20:10 PM
Millikin beating North Park 3-0 with 12 to play.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on September 29, 2018, 10:41:42 PM
Staten Island 16, York (N.Y.) 1

Who the hell let's their team score 16 goals.  Show some class.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on September 29, 2018, 10:42:58 PM
It's final: Millikin 3, North Park 0.  No red cards in this one.  Shots: NPU 28, MU 7.  SOG: NPU 9, MU 4. Corners: NPU 11, MU 0.  Fouls: NPU 11, MU 22.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on September 29, 2018, 10:48:42 PM
Quote from: EB2319 on September 29, 2018, 10:41:42 PM
Staten Island 16, York (N.Y.) 1

Who the hell let's their team score 16 goals.  Show some class.

21 minutes in and already trailing 3-0, York picked up a red card on a foul in the box to go down 4-0 and down to 10 men.  All eight second half goals were scored by three substitutes.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on September 29, 2018, 11:21:14 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on September 29, 2018, 10:48:42 PM
Quote from: EB2319 on September 29, 2018, 10:41:42 PM
Staten Island 16, York (N.Y.) 1

Who the hell let's their team score 16 goals.  Show some class.

21 minutes in and already trailing 3-0, York picked up a red card on a foul in the box to go down 4-0 and down to 10 men.  All eight second half goals were scored by three substitutes.

And?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on September 30, 2018, 03:39:12 PM
Primarily, just to give a little more info on the game.

Secondly, just to mention that it wasn't starters running up the score and that York did themselves no favors by picking up a red card halfway through 1st half and playing a man down for 69 minutes.

We have this discussion about high, lopsided scores every couple years. I won't run down all the arguments from both sides, but one worthwhile question to grapple with is: What is more demeaning and disrespectful? An increasingly lopsided score or playing keep-away to avoid running up the score?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on September 30, 2018, 05:46:23 PM
Another week down and another shot at the poll. Lots of changes this time!

Shooter's 25
1. Chicago (10-0-1)
2. Messiah (8-0-1)
3. Tufts (9-0-0)
4. St. Joe's Maine (10-0-0)
5. Calvin (8-1-0)
6. Lynchburg (7-0-1)
7. CMU (7-0-2)
8. F&M (8-0-2)
9. Trinity (6-1-1)
10. MW (7-0-2)
11. Rochester (7-1-0)
12. Emory (8-1-0)
13. Kenyon (8-1-1)
14. Montclair (10-1-1)
15. Hope (9-0-0)
16. Stevens (9-1-1)
17. CT College (8-0-0)
18. Roger Williams (11-0-0)
19. CMS (9-1-0)
20. Cortland St (8-1-2)
21. St. Norbert (8-0-1)
22. CWRU (8-1-1)
23. Lycoming (8-1-1)
24. Ithaca (6-0-3)
25. Mount Union (8-0-0)

RV (No order): Luther, North Park, PSU Harrisburg, MHB, Drew, Salisbury, Oneonta St, Brockport St, St. Lawrence, Williams, Ramapo, St. Mary's, Wabash, Babson, NYU, Skidmore, Grove City, DePauw, OWU, ONU, Webster, MSOE, UWP, St. Thomas, Cornell, Loras, Gustavus Adolphus, St. John's, Tx Tyler, Willamette, Tx Dallas
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3soccerwatcher on September 30, 2018, 08:50:20 PM
Hope College quickly emerging as a national level team, after posting losing records in their last three seasons.  They just completed an east coast swing with wins over Marymount (6-0) and Wesley (3-1).  Hope College now stands at 9-0 (their best start in over two decades).  Hope is one of only six teams in the country who remain undefeated and untied.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on September 30, 2018, 08:56:27 PM
Quote from: D3soccerwatcher on September 30, 2018, 08:50:20 PM
Hope College quickly emerging as a national level team, after posting losing records in their last three seasons.  They just completed an east coast swing with wins over Marymount (6-0) and Wesley (3-1).  Hope College now stands at 9-0 (their best start in over two decades).  Hope is one of only six teams in the country who remain undefeated and untied.
Impressive start for coach Brandt team. We will know next game against Calvin if they are a national level team. A win would be huge for the program
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on September 30, 2018, 08:57:58 PM
MAF Top 25
1. Chicago
2. Messiah
3. Tufts
4. Calvin
5. St. Joe's Me
6. F&M
7. Lynchburg
8. CMU
9. Trinity
10. Emory
11. Rochester
12. Kenyon
13. MW
14. Montclair St
15. CT College
16. Stevens
17. Hope
18. Cortland St
19. Case Western
20. Lycoming
21. Loras
22. UW-Platteville
23. North Park
24. Ithaca
25. Oneonta St
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 02, 2018, 12:13:39 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on September 29, 2018, 10:48:42 PM
Quote from: EB2319 on September 29, 2018, 10:41:42 PM
Staten Island 16, York (N.Y.) 1

Who the hell let's their team score 16 goals.  Show some class.

21 minutes in and already trailing 3-0, York picked up a red card on a foul in the box to go down 4-0 and down to 10 men.  All eight second half goals were scored by three substitutes.



Also, says that a kid got a Hat Trick in 8 minutes during the 2nd Half. Having seen teams in this league in the NCAA's in the past I am guessing York stopped playing completely after the Red Card and basically stopped working at all. I think Staten Island WENT way to far though as it is much more disrespectful to net 16 Goals against an opponent instead of just knocking the ball around the park. Staten Island has had a couple respectable losses against 2 NJAC sides and have hammered everyone in their league. They go up to Amherst in a week so I wonder of they can give them a game. Amherst beating Staten Island could be a better Win than it looks as it will give Amherst a Win against a NCAA team that Wins its Conference. The committee puts to much emphasis on that stuff IMO but it is what it is.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC43 on October 02, 2018, 03:09:27 PM
D3soccer.com Men's Top 25, Week 5
Through games of Sunday, September 30, 2018

#   School (1st Pl. Votes)   Record   Pts.   Prev.
1   Chicago (17)   10-0-1   985   1
2   Messiah (2)   8-0-1   954   2
3   Calvin   8-1-0   895   4
4   Tufts   9-0-0   872   5
5   Lynchburg (1)   7-0-1   834   7
6   St. Joseph's (Me.) (1)   10-0-0   758   9
7   Emory   8-1-0   730   3
8   Carnegie Mellon   7-0-2   653   13
9   Trinity (Texas)   8-1-1   650   6
10   Franklin & Marshall   8-0-2   611   10
11   Mary Washington   7-0-2   533   12
12   Rochester   7-1-0   501   14
13   Connecticut Col.   8-0-0   487   21
14   Hope   9-0-0   477   19
15   Kenyon   8-1-1   463   8
16   Case Western Res.   8-1-1   406   23
17   North Park   7-2-0   359   11
18   Ithaca   6-0-3   282   20
19   Stevens   9-1-1   260   24
20   St. Lawrence   5-1-2   208   25
21   Lycoming   8-1-1   202   â€”
22   UW-Platteville   7-0-1   198   â€”
23   Claremont-M-S   9-1-0   197   15
24   Cortland State   8-1-2   185   16
25   Luther   9-2-0   94   18
Dropped out: No. 17 St. Thomas, No. 22 Ramapo

Receiving Votes: Ramapo 70, Montclair State 63, Roger Williams 61, Drew 61, St. Thomas 55, St. Norbert 27, Williams 23, Mount Union 21, Loras 17, Ohio Northern 17, Colorado College 15, Illinois Wesleyan 13, Johns Hopkins 13, Penn State-Harrisburg 11, Chapman 11, Occidental 8, Ohio Wesleyan 8, New Paltz State 6, Macalester 6, Salisbury 6, Norwich 6, Eastern Connecticut 2, Brockport State 2, Willamette 2, Cornell 2


NESCAC is down this year with only two in the top 25. They used to perennially have 4-6 in the top 25. 5 UAA teams in the top 16 is crazy.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Bobcat1 on October 03, 2018, 02:59:18 PM
NESCAC43 you are only looking at the D3Soccer.com Poll. Let's look at some others:
1) Bennett Rankings: NESCAC with 5 teams in top 20 with Conn #1, Tufts #4, Amherst #14, Williams #16, Midd #18 (Hamilton #25)
2) Massey Ratings: NESCAC with 5 teams in top 20 with Conn #2, Tufts #3, Williams #18, Amherst #19, Hamilton #20 (Midd #28, Bates #29)

I'm not sure I agree the conference is down. Scoring is down. As Mr. Right has pointed out many times, its a defense first mentality in the conference games.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 03, 2018, 03:36:03 PM
The NESCAC has always been one of the strongest/deepest conferences, top three if not top every year.  Nevertheless, I'd challenge you to find a Top 25 that had more than four NESCAC teams.  You couldn't have more than four in the coaches (formerly NSCAA, now USC) Top 25 during the regular season because of how they take the regional #1's, than the #2's and #3's and finally one regional #4.  So the most teams the NESCAC could have ranked nationally by the coaches is four.  That artificial limit doesn't exist with the D3soccer.com Top 25 (which started in 2009), but I still know that IF it happened, it was a rare occurrence and nothing regular.  I wouldn't say it never happened, but I'm doubtful. 
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on October 03, 2018, 05:12:19 PM
If I'm not mistaken, in the 10-year history of the D3soccer.com Top 25, only once has the NESCAC had five teams ranked.  That occurred in the 2011 week 2 poll (the first poll of the season).  By week 5, only two NESCAC teams were ranked.  Even having four NESCAC teams ranked has been very rare, only happening several times in all those years.  And most of those occurrences came in four straight weeks (weeks 6 thru 9) in 2009, the inaugural year of our Top 25. The fact is, having two NESCAC teams ranked is most typical, occurring well more than 50% of the time--I'd guess at least two-thirds of the time. I didn't do a count, but surprisingly having one NESCAC team ranked seemed to happen a little more often than having three teams ranked.

Our Top 25 archives can be found and reviewed here: http://www.d3soccer.com/top25/men/archive  The 2009 year is still missing--that was before our current website was launched--but adding the 2009 rankings it's on my list of things to do in my "retirement" from day-to-day involvement in the website.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Brother Flounder on October 03, 2018, 05:12:52 PM
I'd be interested to hear what readers think the best conference has been over the past 5 years or past 10 years.    The same with the best program over the past 5 or 10 years.  I have my thoughts and will weigh in later but wifey is calling!!!
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on October 03, 2018, 05:32:15 PM
Quote from: Brother Flounder on October 03, 2018, 05:12:52 PM
I have my thoughts and will weigh in later but wifey is calling!!!

(https://i.imgflip.com/26q8vr.jpg)

;)
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 03, 2018, 07:26:01 PM
Ummmm.....I'll take a wild swing....NESCAC....Tufts...
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: calvin_grad on October 03, 2018, 08:31:42 PM
Calvin up 4-0 over Hope with 20 minutes to play.  :)

5-0 final.  Shots 27-10 in favor of Calvin.  Calvin abused the outside backs from Hope all night.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on October 03, 2018, 09:06:27 PM
The Maine man (L.) Groothoff with the winner for Messiah against Stevenson in OT. West comes in and gets the shot off, rebound falls and instead of shooting on sight he took a touch because he had time before slotting home. Great composure, still hard to believe he's a freshman.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 03, 2018, 09:33:40 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on October 03, 2018, 09:06:27 PM
The Maine man (L.) Groothoff with the winner for Messiah against Stevenson in OT. West comes in and gets the shot off, rebound falls and instead of shooting on sight he took a touch because he had time before slotting home. Great composure, still hard to believe he's a freshman.

IIRC...Wasn't Stevenson the team that took Messiah to OT and worked very hard in 2016 at their place and then Messiah Won it late in OT...One of these Falcon fans will remind me
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 03, 2018, 09:49:50 PM
Unless the schedule changed big time... Stevenson didn't play at Messiah in 2016. They alternate home and away every year. They would have been at Stevenson that season.

I also looked it up... Mustangs were 3-13-3 that season and lost 2-0 to Messiah at Stevenson.

I know Stevenson played Messiah hard a few years back... there was a 0-0 game at Stevenson in 2014. Otherwise Stevenson hasn't been closer than 2 goals in any match-up with the Falcons since joining the MACC.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 03, 2018, 09:58:55 PM
Yeah, Dave's got it.  2014 at Stevenson was the OT game that finished 0-0 of all years as that was the senior Falcon class of Payne, Jack Thompson, Ramirez, Robbins, Kovach, etc.  Outshot the Mustangs 26-4, but could only manage 4 SOG similar to tonight when they led in shots 23-6 but only placed 4 on frame. 
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC43 on October 03, 2018, 11:53:43 PM
Quote from: Brother Flounder on October 03, 2018, 05:12:52 PM
I'd be interested to hear what readers think the best conference has been over the past 5 years or past 10 years.    The same with the best program over the past 5 or 10 years.  I have my thoughts and will weigh in later but wifey is calling!!!

NESCAC and it's not even a debate. The only possible alternative is the UAA but their lack of tournament accolades up until 2 years ago makes that argument very hard to accept. I would say Tufts/Messiah for best program.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC43 on October 03, 2018, 11:58:24 PM
As another point, NCAC is very top heavy and OWU/Kenyon have both had incredible past 5-10 years so I felt like both the conference and teams deserved honorable mention.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC43 on October 04, 2018, 12:01:34 AM
I also keep thinking about the recent Calvin teams and 2010-present Trinitity teams. So many incredible programs have been established. Great to see it makes my choice that much harder to make.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: paclassic89 on October 04, 2018, 01:09:07 AM
Quote from: Brother Flounder on October 03, 2018, 05:12:52 PM
I'd be interested to hear what readers think the best conference has been over the past 5 years or past 10 years.    The same with the best program over the past 5 or 10 years.  I have my thoughts and will weigh in later but wifey is calling!!!

NESCAC probably the best conference.  Messiah has been by far the best program.  I'm not sure that's even debatable
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on October 04, 2018, 07:33:11 AM

Last 5 years
Tufts/Messiah Draw as they both have 2 national titles going back to 2013.
Runner-up - Calvin

Last 10 years
Messiah
Calvin

Best conference(s) last 5 years
NESCAC
UAA
Centennial/SUNYAC/NJAC

Best conference this year
UAA
NESCAC


Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on October 04, 2018, 09:35:45 AM
At first I was just inclined to respond to BF's question with a meme (any ambiguity on his preferences should be erased by the pending trademark on "Giant Slayer Goal") but I'll bite.

Last 5 years:
NESCAC
Messiah (#1)
Tufts (#1A)

I will probably catch a lot of flak for denoting Tufts 1A, but I think I've given the Jumbos enough praise on these boards over the years, so pipe down. ;)

Last 10 years:
NESCAC
Messiah

This year (conference): If we were asking this question last year (even considering Brandeis' 2016 Final 4 appearance) I'd be hesitant to give it to the UAA, since 1. Tufts won the title the year before (3rd in a row for NESCAC) and 2. the UAA had one Final 4 appearance in 10 years at that time. However, after last year, where the UAA had two Final 4 teams and two Elite 8 teams, while the NESCAC had one Elite 8, one Sweet 16, and three 1st Round teams, I think the argument for the UAA is more credible. Still, I think the UAA has to win a title to convince some of the NESCAC folks (insert point here about Brandeis, a UAA side, winning the 1976 title, well before the UAA was established), but, based on the last 12 months and the great start that UAA teams have made this year, I'm willing to say that it appears to be the best conference this year.

As an aside, Messiah has more than twice the number of titles as all NESCAC teams combined. I don't view this as a slight to the NESCAC, but rather it speaks to the dynasty the Falcons have put together over the last 20 years. Absolutely incredible.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 04, 2018, 09:56:44 AM
Quote from: blooter442 on October 04, 2018, 09:35:45 AM
At first I was just inclined to respond to BF's question with a meme (any ambiguity on his preferences should be erased by the pending trademark on "Giant Slayer Goal") but I'll bite.

Last 5 years:
NESCAC
Messiah (#1)
Tufts (#1A)

I will probably catch a lot of flak for denoting Tufts 1A, but I think I've given the Jumbos enough praise on these boards over the years, so pipe down. ;)

Last 10 years:
NESCAC
Messiah

This year (conference): If we were asking this question last year (even considering Brandeis' 2016 Final 4 appearance) I'd be hesitant to give it to the UAA, since 1. Tufts won the title the year before (3rd in a row for NESCAC) and 2. the UAA had one Final 4 appearance in 10 years at that time. However, after last year, where the UAA had two Final 4 teams and two Elite 8 teams, while the NESCAC had one Elite 8, one Sweet 16, and three 1st Round teams, I think the argument for the UAA is more credible. Still, I think the UAA has to win a title to convince some of the NESCAC folks (insert point here about Brandeis, a UAA side, winning the 1976 title, well before the UAA was established), but, based on the last 12 months and the great start that UAA teams have made this year, I'm willing to say that it appears to be the best conference this year.

As an aside, Messiah has more than twice the number of titles as all NESCAC teams combined. I don't view this as a slight to the NESCAC, but rather it speaks to the dynasty the Falcons have put together over the last 20 years. Absolutely incredible.

LOL.  Surely the next category in the line of questions was going to be "Best Goal of Last Decade."

I too have lauded Tufts....nothing really to argue about, and I've within the past couple of weeks labeled Tufts as arguably the top program or co-equal with Messiah currently.  Hopefully we get a Messiah vs Tufts Elite 8 or Final Four game this year.  Would be compelling.

Last 10 years....Messiah in a landslide.  I might give Tufts the nod for last 5, especially if that excludes Messiah 2013.  Again, would be great to see them face off as a tiebreaker this year.

Calvin is right there, for both 5 and 10 years.  2-3 years ago, an argument could have been made for OWU.  Amherst is in the mix, as is Trinity (TX).

And what about Loras?  Calvin seems to have taken Loras' spot as #2 or #3.  And Wheaton (Ill) was right there too until plummeting in terms of high level national success.

I'd give a nod to Brandeis (a very strong run capped off by consecutive Final Four appearances)....and also honorable mention to a few schools who have had strong runs but have yet to fully break through....F&M, Kenyon, maybe Haverford.  Chicago has emerged and did break through to a Final Four.  The NJAC (maybe Montclair) hasn't has one consistent team but generally has had at least one serious threat every year (Camden, Montclair, Rowan, Newark have all had their turns).

As for conferences, my vote is NESCAC and UAA clearly the top two, followed by NJAC and SUNYAC and then Centennial.  And UAA #1 this year for sure, dependent only on how the current middle of the pack NESCAC teams finish this season.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: WUPHF on October 04, 2018, 01:01:43 PM
This may have been posted elsewhere, but if not, this game-winning Widener goal is worth watching: https://twitter.com/WidenerSports/status/1047864141921374209
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rangerfan on October 04, 2018, 01:22:01 PM
Quote from: WUPHF on October 04, 2018, 01:01:43 PM
This may have been posted elsewhere, but if not, this game-winning Widener goal is worth watching: https://twitter.com/WidenerSports/status/1047864141921374209

Even if it was posted elsewhere, it's worth another look. Nice hit!
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Brother Flounder on October 04, 2018, 05:17:37 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on October 04, 2018, 09:35:45 AM
At first I was just inclined to respond to BF's question with a meme (any ambiguity on his preferences should be erased by the pending trademark on "Giant Slayer Goal") but I'll bite.

Last 5 years:
NESCAC
Messiah (#1)
Tufts (#1A)

I will probably catch a lot of flak for denoting Tufts 1A, but I think I've given the Jumbos enough praise on these boards over the years, so pipe down. ;)

Last 10 years:
NESCAC
Messiah

This year (conference): If we were asking this question last year (even considering Brandeis' 2016 Final 4 appearance) I'd be hesitant to give it to the UAA, since 1. Tufts won the title the year before (3rd in a row for NESCAC) and 2. the UAA had one Final 4 appearance in 10 years at that time. However, after last year, where the UAA had two Final 4 teams and two Elite 8 teams, while the NESCAC had one Elite 8, one Sweet 16, and three 1st Round teams, I think the argument for the UAA is more credible. Still, I think the UAA has to win a title to convince some of the NESCAC folks (insert point here about Brandeis, a UAA side, winning the 1976 title, well before the UAA was established), but, based on the last 12 months and the great start that UAA teams have made this year, I'm willing to say that it appears to be the best conference this year.

As an aside, Messiah has more than twice the number of titles as all NESCAC teams combined. I don't view this as a slight to the NESCAC, but rather it speaks to the dynasty the Falcons have put together over the last 20 years. Absolutely incredible.

BLOOTS!!!!  Who's Messiah?

Last 10 years: Messiah
Last 5 years: Tufts

Last 10 Years: NESCAC
Last 5 Years-NESCAC

What's up Salad Dressing?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Brother Flounder on October 04, 2018, 05:21:03 PM
Quote from: WUPHF on October 04, 2018, 01:01:43 PM
This may have been posted elsewhere, but if not, this game-winning Widener goal is worth watching: https://twitter.com/WidenerSports/status/1047864141921374209

What a Cracker!
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Brother Flounder on October 04, 2018, 05:24:02 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on October 04, 2018, 09:35:45 AM
At first I was just inclined to respond to BF's question with a meme (any ambiguity on his preferences should be erased by the pending trademark on "Giant Slayer Goal") but I'll bite.

Last 5 years:
NESCAC
Messiah (#1)
Tufts (#1A)

I will probably catch a lot of flak for denoting Tufts 1A, but I think I've given the Jumbos enough praise on these boards over the years, so pipe down. ;)

Last 10 years:
NESCAC
Messiah

This year (conference): If we were asking this question last year (even considering Brandeis' 2016 Final 4 appearance) I'd be hesitant to give it to the UAA, since 1. Tufts won the title the year before (3rd in a row for NESCAC) and 2. the UAA had one Final 4 appearance in 10 years at that time. However, after last year, where the UAA had two Final 4 teams and two Elite 8 teams, while the NESCAC had one Elite 8, one Sweet 16, and three 1st Round teams, I think the argument for the UAA is more credible. Still, I think the UAA has to win a title to convince some of the NESCAC folks (insert point here about Brandeis, a UAA side, winning the 1976 title, well before the UAA was established), but, based on the last 12 months and the great start that UAA teams have made this year, I'm willing to say that it appears to be the best conference this year.

As an aside, Messiah has more than twice the number of titles as all NESCAC teams combined. I don't view this as a slight to the NESCAC, but rather it speaks to the dynasty the Falcons have put together over the last 20 years. Absolutely incredible.

I loved watching the Tufts/Brandeis games over the past several years.  Great competitive soccer...sometimes pretty and sometimes ugly but very even matches...
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 04, 2018, 05:25:08 PM
Oh, I suppose I'm OK, Mr. Flounder.....it's really hard to walk away, isn't it?  That whole living through your kids thing grips like Fentanyl, and I am right there with ya at the front of the line.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Brother Flounder on October 04, 2018, 05:26:51 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 04, 2018, 05:25:08 PM
Oh, I suppose I'm OK, Mr. Flounder.....it's really hard to walk away, isn't it?  That whole living through your kids thing grips like Fentanyl, and I am right there with ya at the front of the line.

Well, take it easy.... they have programs for that kind of addiction! ::)
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 04, 2018, 05:35:25 PM
Come on now Flounder...I thought you'd be cutting me a little slack given my consistently high praise for the Jumbos.  Best to 'meg, btw.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on October 04, 2018, 06:50:24 PM
Quote from: Brother Flounder on October 04, 2018, 05:24:02 PM
I loved watching the Tufts/Brandeis games over the past several years.  Great competitive soccer...sometimes pretty and sometimes ugly but very even matches...

Me too. When they first played back in 2013 Tufts blew them away and I think Brandeis had a bone to pick the next year when Tufts came to town. That was an even game but I remember being so shocked when Brandeis scored with 11 minutes left (having gone 0-3 in its previous 3 NESCAC games without scoring) and at that point I knew they were going to win. That was one of the biggest wins in Brandeis' recent history. Since then there have been a number of back and forth games (Tufts leads the post-2010 series 4-3) and interestingly 2 of the 3 Brandeis wins have been on the road, while Tufts has won twice at each venue. And, excluding the first two, they've been one-goal games.

Definitely competitive, definitely chippy, but there's always grudging respect. That's how it should be IMHO.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 06, 2018, 05:26:10 PM
Time to start talking about Connecticut College more on the national level instead of just inside the NESCAC.  Impressive season going, and we'll have to see if the Camels can finish just as strong.

Carnegie Mellon and CWRU really hurt themselves today, losing at home.  Brandeis nipping CMU isn't a surprise, but the loss could be costly and certainly the win for Brandeis puts some major wind back in the Judges' sails. 

CWRU thrashed Kenyon about 10 days ago and then drew away with Brandeis.  A win against the Judges would have been huge, and now they've lost at home (and not close) to NYU.  CWRU has Wash U and Chicago at home next weekend and then finishes with three brutal away games....Rochester, Emory and CMU.

Just a few days ago CMU and CWRU looked like they might be the chalk in Great Lakes.  They have let Kenyon, OWU, Capital and John Carroll back in the door.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on October 06, 2018, 09:07:37 PM
W&L at Lynchburg 1-1 in first OT. Been a bit of a brutal game. 5 yellows and lots of fouls.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on October 07, 2018, 11:31:17 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 06, 2018, 05:26:10 PM
Time to start talking about Connecticut College more on the national level instead of just inside the NESCAC.  Impressive season going, and we'll have to see if the Camels can finish just as strong.

Massey currently has them rated #2.  Nationally.  Ahead of Tufts, Calvin and Messiah.  Behind only Chicago.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on October 07, 2018, 11:43:39 AM
Quote from: blooter442 on October 04, 2018, 06:50:24 PM
Quote from: Brother Flounder on October 04, 2018, 05:24:02 PM
I loved watching the Tufts/Brandeis games over the past several years.  Great competitive soccer...sometimes pretty and sometimes ugly but very even matches...

Me too. When they first played back in 2013 Tufts blew them away and I think Brandeis had a bone to pick the next year when Tufts came to town. That was an even game but I remember being so shocked when Brandeis scored with 11 minutes left (having gone 0-3 in its previous 3 NESCAC games without scoring) and at that point I knew they were going to win. That was one of the biggest wins in Brandeis' recent history. Since then there have been a number of back and forth games (Tufts leads the post-2010 series 4-3) and interestingly 2 of the 3 Brandeis wins have been on the road, while Tufts has won twice at each venue. And, excluding the first two, they've been one-goal games.

Definitely competitive, definitely chippy, but there's always grudging respect. That's how it should be IMHO.

Did you know that Tufts and Brandeis conduct ID clinics jointly?  http://www.newenglandsoccerclinics.com/ (http://www.newenglandsoccerclinics.com/) 
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on October 07, 2018, 01:04:42 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on October 07, 2018, 11:31:17 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 06, 2018, 05:26:10 PM
Time to start talking about Connecticut College more on the national level instead of just inside the NESCAC.  Impressive season going, and we'll have to see if the Camels can finish just as strong.

Massey currently has them rated #2.  Nationally.  Ahead of Tufts, Calvin and Messiah.  Behind only Chicago.

Well Conn will be playing next 2 games against programs that have been the top of the NESCAC in terms of national recognition and results over the last 5 years. If they come out of these games with points then they will probably be given national level respect. Just because Massey algorithms put them ahead of Tufts, Calvin, and Messiah doesn't mean much. How many final 4 or national championship games have they been to? Until they consistently make it to multiple final 4s or better I don't think you can put them in the same category as these teams.  Beating Tufts and Amherst would put them in the conversation for this year certainly but still would want to see a deep run in the tournament
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 07, 2018, 01:45:40 PM
In terms of Conn College I was only referring to this year.  And I think we all know that Conn has not been to Final Fours or won national titles.  There was no intention on my part to suggest even a slight equivalence with those other programs.  And you're correct, at this time next week Conn easily could be 10-2.  Amherst needs a good win in the worst way, and Conn no doubt will get Tufts' A game.  Still, though, for Conn, this is a remarkable season thus far, and almost as remarkable as if we were talking about Colby or Bates.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 07, 2018, 05:18:45 PM
MAF Top 25
1. Chicago
2. Messiah
3. Tufts
4. Calvin
5. St. Joe's Me
6. Lynchburg
7. CT College
8. Montclair St
9. Trinity
10. MW
11. CMU
12. Kenyon
13. Stevens
14. F&M
15. Loras
16. UW-Platteville
17. Lycoming
18. Cortland St
19. Norwich
20. Hope
21. Rochester
22. Emory
23. St. Norbert
24. Ithaca
25. PSU-Harrisburg
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on October 07, 2018, 06:43:48 PM
Quote from: rudy on October 07, 2018, 01:04:42 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on October 07, 2018, 11:31:17 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 06, 2018, 05:26:10 PM
Time to start talking about Connecticut College more on the national level instead of just inside the NESCAC.  Impressive season going, and we'll have to see if the Camels can finish just as strong.

Massey currently has them rated #2.  Nationally.  Ahead of Tufts, Calvin and Messiah.  Behind only Chicago.

Well Conn will be playing next 2 games against programs that have been the top of the NESCAC in terms of national recognition and results over the last 5 years. If they come out of these games with points then they will probably be given national level respect. Just because Massey algorithms put them ahead of Tufts, Calvin, and Messiah doesn't mean much. How many final 4 or national championship games have they been to? Until they consistently make it to multiple final 4s or better I don't think you can put them in the same category as these teams.  Beating Tufts and Amherst would put them in the conversation for this year certainly but still would want to see a deep run in the tournament
It's Massey's rating.  Not mine. 

With that said, I place more stock in it than in the coaches' rankings.  The problem with the coaches' rankings is that the coaches can't have seen most of the teams.  So they're working with scores, just like Massey, but Massey can track all of those data more effectively than a coach who is focusing on other things.

And while I agree that Conn hasn't enjoyed the same level of success in the past as those other schools, I fail to see what that has to do with how good they are this year.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 07, 2018, 07:50:11 PM
Paul Newman's Own Top 25  (thru 10/7/18)

1)  Messiah
2)  Tufts
3)  Chicago
4)  Calvin

Top four almost totally interchangeable and well ahead of rest of pack...

5)  Connecticut College (1 GA so far versus solid schedule)
6)  Montclair St
7)  Lynchburg
8)  Trinity (TX)
9)  Loras
10) Cortland St

Another significant separation right around here...

11) Stevens
12) Kenyon
13) Mary Washington
14) Franklin & Marshall
15) Carnegie Mellon
16) Lycoming
17) Rochester
18) Ohio Wesleyan
19) North Park
20) Emory
21) St Joseph's (ME)
22) Capital
23) Vassar
24) Johns Hopkins
25) [TIE] Hope/Willamette/GAC/TX-Tyler/Carleton

Receiving Votes (no order) -- St. Norbert, Grove City, Salisbury, Rutgers-Camden, Ithaca, CWRU, Eastern, TX-Dallas, Colorado Coll, C-M-S, Brockport St, SLU, Macalester, PS-Harrisburg, RWU, Salve Regina, Norwich, St Thomas

Heavyweights lurking in low-lying weeds -- Brandeis, Amherst, Williams, Middlebury, Bowdoin, Wash U, Washington & Lee, Rowan, John Carroll, Oneonta St, Endicott, Babson, WPI
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 07, 2018, 07:58:22 PM
Well done Paul +K
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 07, 2018, 08:17:48 PM
Shooter's 25
1. Chicago (11-0-1)
2. Messiah (10-0-2)
3. Tufts (9-0-1)
4. St. Joe's Maine (12-0-0)
5. Calvin (10-1-0)
6. Lynchburg (8-0-2)
7. CT College (10-0-0)
8. Montclair (12-1-1)
9. Trinity (10-1-1)
10. MW (8-0-2)
11. CMU (8-1-2)
12. Stevens (11-1-1)
13. Kenyon (8-1-1)
14. F&M (9-1-2)
15. Cortland St (10-1-2)
16. Rochester (8-1-1)
17. Lycoming (10-1-1)
18. Hope (10-1-0)
19. Emory (8-2-0)
20. North Park (8-2-0)
21. Loras (9-1-0)
22. PSU-Harrisburg (13-1-1)
23. St. Norbert (11-0-1)
24. Ithaca (7-1-3)
25. UW-Platteville (7-1-1)

RV (No order): Norwich, Springfield, Amherst, Babson, Roger Williams, Eastern, Hopkins, Ramapo, Rowan, RUC, Salisbury, NYU, Oneonta St, Brockport St, St. Lawrence, Case Western, Mount Aloysius, Grove City, Capital, DePauw, OWU, ONU, Webster, MSOE, St. Thomas, Cornell, Gustavus Adolphus, St. Thomas, Tx Tyler, Willamette, Tx Dallas
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 4samuy on October 07, 2018, 08:32:40 PM
Interesting and good thoughts Paul.  Putting Loras in at #9 IMHO would use your "almost interchangeable" top 4 and move Chicago to #1.  1-0 vs. the top 4.  2-0-1 vs. top ten and 5-0-1 vs. top 20 with four of the six on the road.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 07, 2018, 08:40:50 PM
Quote from: 4samuy on October 07, 2018, 08:32:40 PM
Interesting and good thoughts Paul.  Putting Loras in at #9 IMHO would use your "almost interchangeable" top 4 and move Chicago to #1.  1-0 vs. the top 4.  2-0-1 vs. top ten and 5-0-1 vs. top 20 with four of the six on the road.

Yeah, I think teams like Loras, Cortland, and Montclair have been rated too low.  The St Joe's story is a great one, but even with decent wins over Gordon, Endicott and Bowdoin I can't see putting them as high as others have been doing. 

In terms of Chicago, I love their talent and would likely rank them #1 based purely on results.  I don't trust them yet, though, in a huge NCAA game versus Messiah or Tufts, and they were fortunate to get out of Calvin with a W.  I think Chicago has the best talent, or at least the most firepower, although that is arguable from the Messiah point of view, but I could see Tufts roughing up Lopez and Koh and taking them out of their games and frustrating them.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 4samuy on October 07, 2018, 09:57:16 PM
Yeah,  I've seen Messiah, Tufts, Calvin and Chicago play three plus times plus this year.  Chicago's fire power keeps coming up on these boards, myself included, but not much is made of their grit.  They have out fouled their opponents upwards of 155-120.  Is that a good stat?  I guess it depends on where and why the fouls occur and if it results in further disciplinary action.

Many of Chicago's fouls IMO occur in the middle of the pitch on 50/50 balls that they may lose and try to poke to a teamate or try to create an opponents mistake to counter or in their offensive third trying to keep the opponent from moving from back to front, so they are smart about where those fouls occur.  Chicago's ability to counter and use the flanks is their strength and a lot of it starts with constant pressure on the ball and anticipating an opponents pass moving forward.

All this being said,  the biggest challenge Chicago has moving forward is set pieces in their back third. Sophomore keeper katsimpalis has been outstanding as of late as has the back line, but they are not big/ tall other than center back Sam Drablos, but are quick. This is why I think it will be important for Chicago to continue to be aggressive on the ball and pick their spots when they foul on the pitch.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 07, 2018, 10:18:58 PM
Quote from: 4samuy on October 07, 2018, 09:57:16 PM
Yeah,  I've seen Messiah, Tufts, Calvin and Chicago play three plus times plus this year.  Chicago's fire power keeps coming up on these boards, myself included, but not much is made of their grit.  They have out fouled their opponents upwards of 155-120.  Is that a good stat?  I guess it depends on where and why the fouls occur and if it results in further disciplinary action.

Many of Chicago's fouls IMO occur in the middle of the pitch on 50/50 balls that they may lose and try to poke to a teamate or try to create an opponents mistake to counter or in their offensive third trying to keep the opponent from moving from back to front, so they are smart about where those fouls occur.  Chicago's ability to counter and use the flanks is their strength and a lot of it starts with constant pressure on the ball and anticipating an opponents pass moving forward.

All this being said,  the biggest challenge Chicago has moving forward is set pieces in their back third. Sophomore keeper katsimpalis has been outstanding as of late as has the back line, but they are not big/ tall other than center back Sam Drablos, but are quick. This is why I think it will be important for Chicago to continue to be aggressive on the ball and pick their spots when they foul on the pitch.

That's interesting (and surprising to me) that Chicago has a high foul total.  I do think that's a good sign, assuming they are comfortable in that mode and not fouling reactively.  Messiah is one of the few teams that I think can foul less and not be impacted....goes along with the talent and overall confidence that comes with winning 11 titles.  Tufts generally has high foul totals, which makes more sense with their size, physicality and athleticism.  I would be very curious to see if they could mark Koh and/or Lopez out of a game, and whether they could completely frustrate West for Messiah as well.

I thought Chicago was the best team in the country last year and would have had a very good chance to beat Messiah in the final.  You have to have some luck, too, like advancing in PKs, getting that fortunate bounce, etc, etc.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 4samuy on October 07, 2018, 11:27:03 PM
I guess that brings me back to the original debate.  Chicago at #1.  There were postings on these boards last year about the lack of trust people had in Chicago, which were well warranted after their sweet sixteen loss to Redlands (at Chicago, no less) in 2016.  They got to the final four in 2017 and lost a tough one to NPU and I  agree they would have given Messiah all they could handle.

Getting your program to elite status is a process, and Chicago coach Babst has done that with a deep talented team, with a combination of youngsters and veterans, which brings me to my point:  I believe a physical, smart and potent offensive team with an incredibly difficult schedule In Chicago vs. a fluid and potent offensive with pedigree Messiah team vs. size and physicality, pedigree of Tufts gives my current #1 to Chicago.  Yes, I said current.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 08, 2018, 09:53:28 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 07, 2018, 08:40:50 PM
Quote from: 4samuy on October 07, 2018, 08:32:40 PM
Interesting and good thoughts Paul.  Putting Loras in at #9 IMHO would use your "almost interchangeable" top 4 and move Chicago to #1.  1-0 vs. the top 4.  2-0-1 vs. top ten and 5-0-1 vs. top 20 with four of the six on the road.

Yeah, I think teams like Loras, Cortland, and Montclair have been rated too low.  The St Joe's story is a great one, but even with decent wins over Gordon, Endicott and Bowdoin I can't see putting them as high as others have been doing. 

In terms of Chicago, I love their talent and would likely rank them #1 based purely on results.  I don't trust them yet, though, in a huge NCAA game versus Messiah or Tufts, and they were fortunate to get out of Calvin with a W.  I think Chicago has the best talent, or at least the most firepower, although that is arguable from the Messiah point of view, but I could see Tufts roughing up Lopez and Koh and taking them out of their games and frustrating them.

For me St. Joe's is a legitimate top 10 team and right now a top 5 team for a few reasons. 42 GF and 1GA. Undefeated 12-0-0 record with a few nice wins along the way including 11 shutouts. Last year they finished 19-0-2 with 20 shutouts and gave up 1 goal all season! Held Tufts scoreless in NCAA's and lost in PK's. In 2016 they were 15-2-6 with 17 shutouts and allowed just 10 goals. If this was just a one off season then sure they probably don't deserve the high ranking, but with this being the third year in a row that they are performing this way I think we should consider them a top 10 team. A very tough NCAA draw with Tufts so it's hard to fault them for that one last year but with the conference they are in they will never get a favorable draw. They have also went on the road and kept shutouts vs Gordon, Endicott, and Bowdoin this year. They have a big test coming up with undefeated Norwich who I think they will handle with ease. 
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: truenorth on October 08, 2018, 10:59:44 AM
In my view St. Joe's is a legitimately ranked team.  I saw the St. Joe's vs. Bowdoin game earlier in the season.  St. Joe's is compact and well organized defensively and they have a superior goal keeper.  When he graduates, I predict their performance level will drop off noticeably.

I didn't think St. Joe's was a big threat in the attacking end, and I actually thought Bowdoin outplayed them by a slight margin over the 90 minutes.  But St. Joe's converted on one of their only set piece opportunities, and that's all it takes...
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 08, 2018, 11:01:30 AM
I get the argument for St Joe's.  I would just feel more comfortable if the Monks had another win versus an Oneonta, Amherst, Conn Coll, Rutgers-Camden, or Vassar or SLU.  I'd also be curious to see them play Endicott again.  There are also a handful of other teams with gaudy records and stats from weak conferences not ranked anywhere near where St Joe's is getting ranked.

Let's also not forget that Tufts outshot the Monks 24-4 with a 13-3 advantage on corners.  And Tufts struggled to score against most teams.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on October 08, 2018, 01:03:53 PM
McCarty reaches 200 wins in his 10th season. https://gomessiah.com/news/2018/10/6/mens-soccer-falcons-handle-lions-behind-strong-second-half.aspx

200-13-11 . That's unreal.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 08, 2018, 01:44:33 PM
Yea St.Joe's is without question one of the best defensive teams in D3 and have a solid GK BUT against real tough opposition I still do not see them being able to score Goals. I honestly think their GK is solid but still to me he can be beaten low. He is not the quickest from what I have seen to get down to the ground so if teams would hit rockets low I think he can be beaten. Easier said than done as Tufts were not able to do that in 2017. Bowdoin is just as anemic as St.Joe's offensively so I do not see that as a true test of a solid team not being able to score against them. Whoever is giving St.Joe's the ONE FIRST PLACE vote every week in the D3Soccer.com poll is a travesty. They are not even close to being the #1 ranked team in the country and just shows the types of biases than can occur in these polls. I mean Lynchburg got a 1st Place vote and Messiah got two 1st Place Votes and neither comes close to matching Chicago's schedule and Away Wins.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 08, 2018, 01:48:09 PM
Also, do not be so sure St.Joe's will handle Norwich with ease. Norwich has two strikers that are fast and have some skill and they are very organized defensively as well. The game is at Norwich midweek and at some point St.Joe's win streak will come to an end in the conference. Also, Norwich will be all guns a blazin trying to knock them off. I see a very tight game and if Norwich can snag a quick 1st Half Goal they can sit compact and deep to hold St.Joe's off.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on October 08, 2018, 02:16:58 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 08, 2018, 01:44:33 PM
Yea St.Joe's is without question one of the best defensive teams in D3 and have a solid GK BUT against real tough opposition I still do not see them being able to score Goals. I honestly think their GK is solid but still to me he can be beaten low. He is not the quickest from what I have seen to get down to the ground so if teams would hit rockets low I think he can be beaten. Easier said than done as Tufts were not able to do that in 2017. Bowdoin is just as anemic as St.Joe's offensively so I do not see that as a true test of a solid team not being able to score against them. Whoever is giving St.Joe's the ONE FIRST PLACE vote every week in the D3Soccer.com poll is a travesty. They are not even close to being the #1 ranked team in the country and just shows the types of biases than can occur in these polls. I mean Lynchburg got a 1st Place vote and Messiah got two 1st Place Votes and neither comes close to matching Chicago's schedule and Away Wins.

I can see your point regarding St Joe's and Lynchburg but there is an argument for Messiah receiving votes. They are defending national champions and undefeated this year. Two ties for Messiah and one for Chicago. Last year we heard a lot about the vaunted Chicago offense but yet they did not score in the national semi final against NPU while Messiah scored 2 on that same team. Chicago had Koh and Lopez in that game so same key weapons as this year. Polls don't mean much anyway but you can't argue that it's crazy to give 2 votes to Messiah as #1 imo.  Hopefully this year Chicago and Messiah can meet head to head ..that would be entertaining game.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blue_jays on October 08, 2018, 02:32:28 PM
Quote from: rudy on October 08, 2018, 02:16:58 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 08, 2018, 01:44:33 PM
Yea St.Joe's is without question one of the best defensive teams in D3 and have a solid GK BUT against real tough opposition I still do not see them being able to score Goals. I honestly think their GK is solid but still to me he can be beaten low. He is not the quickest from what I have seen to get down to the ground so if teams would hit rockets low I think he can be beaten. Easier said than done as Tufts were not able to do that in 2017. Bowdoin is just as anemic as St.Joe's offensively so I do not see that as a true test of a solid team not being able to score against them. Whoever is giving St.Joe's the ONE FIRST PLACE vote every week in the D3Soccer.com poll is a travesty. They are not even close to being the #1 ranked team in the country and just shows the types of biases than can occur in these polls. I mean Lynchburg got a 1st Place vote and Messiah got two 1st Place Votes and neither comes close to matching Chicago's schedule and Away Wins.

I can see your point regarding St Joe's and Lynchburg but there is an argument for Messiah receiving votes. They are defending national champions and undefeated this year. Two ties for Messiah and one for Chicago. Last year we heard a lot about the vaunted Chicago offense but yet they did not score in the national semi final against NPU while Messiah scored 2 on that same team. Chicago had Koh and Lopez in that game so same key weapons as this year. Polls don't mean much anyway but you can't argue that it's crazy to give 2 votes to Messiah as #1 imo.  Hopefully this year Chicago and Messiah can meet head to head ..that would be entertaining game.

Actually UChicago did score in the semis against NPU. It just happened to be wiped off after the fact due to an egregious offsides call that was not even close to correct. The tape of that play will be enough to keep Chicago salty for years to come.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 08, 2018, 02:36:24 PM
Possibly a bit of a reaction to the ongoing self-congratulation.

I am surprised the site hasn't done a piece on Jay Martin reaching 700 wins.

I am generally a Messiah fan and fwiw put them #1 in my mock poll, in part because in addition to results to date this year I consider what I imagine would happen in a head to head matchup, and I am not fully convinced Chicago would beat Messiah or Tufts in an Elite 8 or Final Four game.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: OldNed on October 08, 2018, 02:59:52 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 08, 2018, 01:44:33 PM
Yea St.Joe's is without question one of the best defensive teams in D3 and have a solid GK BUT against real tough opposition I still do not see them being able to score Goals. I honestly think their GK is solid but still to me he can be beaten low. He is not the quickest from what I have seen to get down to the ground so if teams would hit rockets low I think he can be beaten. Easier said than done as Tufts were not able to do that in 2017. Bowdoin is just as anemic as St.Joe's offensively so I do not see that as a true test of a solid team not being able to score against them. Whoever is giving St.Joe's the ONE FIRST PLACE vote every week in the D3Soccer.com poll is a travesty. They are not even close to being the #1 ranked team in the country and just shows the types of biases than can occur in these polls. I mean Lynchburg got a 1st Place vote and Messiah got two 1st Place Votes and neither comes close to matching Chicago's schedule and Away Wins.

I may be the biggest St. Joe's homer on the boards, but I have to say I agree with Paul Newman and Mr. Right on this.  Yeah, they're a really good team and with a terrific record, but in a really lousy conference.  I've been worried that they haven't been scoring as much as I think they should be against teams like Anna Maria (45 shots against them and only 4 goals, 2 of which were PKs). I think Wednesday's game against Norwich is huge for St. Joe's and if they can weather the first 15 minutes where Norwich will come out really pumped up, then I like St. Joe's to win it.  That being said, I can see this being a 0-0 tie, as 3 of the last 4 matches with Norwich have turned out. 

Are they a top 10 team?  Maybe, but I can't see them as a #1 team right now with all the other good teams out there.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 08, 2018, 03:20:05 PM
Quote from: rudy on October 08, 2018, 02:16:58 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 08, 2018, 01:44:33 PM
Yea St.Joe's is without question one of the best defensive teams in D3 and have a solid GK BUT against real tough opposition I still do not see them being able to score Goals. I honestly think their GK is solid but still to me he can be beaten low. He is not the quickest from what I have seen to get down to the ground so if teams would hit rockets low I think he can be beaten. Easier said than done as Tufts were not able to do that in 2017. Bowdoin is just as anemic as St.Joe's offensively so I do not see that as a true test of a solid team not being able to score against them. Whoever is giving St.Joe's the ONE FIRST PLACE vote every week in the D3Soccer.com poll is a travesty. They are not even close to being the #1 ranked team in the country and just shows the types of biases than can occur in these polls. I mean Lynchburg got a 1st Place vote and Messiah got two 1st Place Votes and neither comes close to matching Chicago's schedule and Away Wins.

I can see your point regarding St Joe's and Lynchburg but there is an argument for Messiah receiving votes. They are defending national champions and undefeated this year. Two ties for Messiah and one for Chicago. Last year we heard a lot about the vaunted Chicago offense but yet they did not score in the national semi final against NPU while Messiah scored 2 on that same team. Chicago had Koh and Lopez in that game so same key weapons as this year. Polls don't mean much anyway but you can't argue that it's crazy to give 2 votes to Messiah as #1 imo.  Hopefully this year Chicago and Messiah can meet head to head ..that would be entertaining game.

Last year has nothing to do with this year...Messiah's schedule isn't even within sniffing range of Chicago's let alone the Wins on the Road that Chicago has. I mean a they have a Draw at Trinity, Win at North Park and a Win at Calvin....Am I missing something or does Messiah have anything close that resembles that
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 08, 2018, 04:57:17 PM
OldNed, appreciate you chiming in.  I certainly don't want to minimize the St. Joe's story and what Shooter correctly points out is a 3 year run.  To do what they are doing at a school in Maine with 1000 students is incredible....and the Monks are definitely one of the big stories in D3 this year.  They definitely in my view deserve to be ranked.  IMHO somewhere in the #11-#16 range would be fair.  They will need to find ways to score against strong, NCAA tourney level competition.  They relied on PKs to get by Babson 2 years ago, and then failed on PKs with Tufts.  I do recall that despite the shot margin St. Joe's had a shot late in regulation or in one of the OTs that clearly had Mieth beat and hit the post or crossbar.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 08, 2018, 05:26:35 PM
To be fair to Messiah, 5-2 away at Montclair was impressive and also had a decent road win at Dickinson.  On the other hand, they had to scramble at home to get the draw with Cortland and also had to come back from being down 2-0 to draw away at JHU.  This is all nitpicking, though, IMO, and why I said the top 4 are basically interchangeable in terms of rankings AND prospects going forward.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on October 08, 2018, 07:50:11 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 08, 2018, 03:20:05 PM
Quote from: rudy on October 08, 2018, 02:16:58 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 08, 2018, 01:44:33 PM
Yea St.Joe's is without question one of the best defensive teams in D3 and have a solid GK BUT against real tough opposition I still do not see them being able to score Goals. I honestly think their GK is solid but still to me he can be beaten low. He is not the quickest from what I have seen to get down to the ground so if teams would hit rockets low I think he can be beaten. Easier said than done as Tufts were not able to do that in 2017. Bowdoin is just as anemic as St.Joe's offensively so I do not see that as a true test of a solid team not being able to score against them. Whoever is giving St.Joe's the ONE FIRST PLACE vote every week in the D3Soccer.com poll is a travesty. They are not even close to being the #1 ranked team in the country and just shows the types of biases than can occur in these polls. I mean Lynchburg got a 1st Place vote and Messiah got two 1st Place Votes and neither comes close to matching Chicago's schedule and Away Wins.

I can see your point regarding St Joe's and Lynchburg but there is an argument for Messiah receiving votes. They are defending national champions and undefeated this year. Two ties for Messiah and one for Chicago. Last year we heard a lot about the vaunted Chicago offense but yet they did not score in the national semi final against NPU while Messiah scored 2 on that same team. Chicago had Koh and Lopez in that game so same key weapons as this year. Polls don't mean much anyway but you can't argue that it's crazy to give 2 votes to Messiah as #1 imo.  Hopefully this year Chicago and Messiah can meet head to head ..that would be entertaining game.

Last year has nothing to do with this year...Messiah's schedule isn't even within sniffing range of Chicago's let alone the Wins on the Road that Chicago has. I mean a they have a Draw at Trinity, Win at North Park and a Win at Calvin....Am I missing something or does Messiah have anything close that resembles that

As far as polls go the.top 4 at start of the year are typically the final 4 from previous year. That's just how it is.  So the previous year does count for polls. Usually the order does not change until top teams start to lose. Messiah has not lost. Therefore it is not a stretch to vote them #1.  Agree Chicago has had tougher schedule. And probably deserve #1 ranking at the moment. But I don't think anyone voting Messiah #1 is way off base here. 
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 08, 2018, 08:29:43 PM
Messiah hasn't lost, but they do have two draws, which generally count as blemishes for rankings and NCAA seedings purposes.  Chicago has had a marginally tougher schedule and only one blemish.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 09, 2018, 01:08:55 AM
Quote from: blue_jays on October 08, 2018, 02:32:28 PM
Quote from: rudy on October 08, 2018, 02:16:58 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 08, 2018, 01:44:33 PM
Yea St.Joe's is without question one of the best defensive teams in D3 and have a solid GK BUT against real tough opposition I still do not see them being able to score Goals. I honestly think their GK is solid but still to me he can be beaten low. He is not the quickest from what I have seen to get down to the ground so if teams would hit rockets low I think he can be beaten. Easier said than done as Tufts were not able to do that in 2017. Bowdoin is just as anemic as St.Joe's offensively so I do not see that as a true test of a solid team not being able to score against them. Whoever is giving St.Joe's the ONE FIRST PLACE vote every week in the D3Soccer.com poll is a travesty. They are not even close to being the #1 ranked team in the country and just shows the types of biases than can occur in these polls. I mean Lynchburg got a 1st Place vote and Messiah got two 1st Place Votes and neither comes close to matching Chicago's schedule and Away Wins.

I can see your point regarding St Joe's and Lynchburg but there is an argument for Messiah receiving votes. They are defending national champions and undefeated this year. Two ties for Messiah and one for Chicago. Last year we heard a lot about the vaunted Chicago offense but yet they did not score in the national semi final against NPU while Messiah scored 2 on that same team. Chicago had Koh and Lopez in that game so same key weapons as this year. Polls don't mean much anyway but you can't argue that it's crazy to give 2 votes to Messiah as #1 imo.  Hopefully this year Chicago and Messiah can meet head to head ..that would be entertaining game.

Actually UChicago did score in the semis against NPU. It just happened to be wiped off after the fact due to an egregious offsides call that was not even close to correct. The tape of that play will be enough to keep Chicago salty for years to come.

This is very accurate. Chicago looked to be on the way to winning that game. While the scoreboard didn't show a goal... they controlled that game and I dare say dominated it. That goal should have counted and I think Chicago would have been in the title game as a result.

Unfortunate how that turned out.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NEsoccerfan on October 09, 2018, 01:56:24 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 08, 2018, 08:29:43 PM
Messiah hasn't lost, but they do have two draws, which generally count as blemishes for rankings and NCAA seedings purposes.  Chicago has had a marginally tougher schedule and only one blemish.

Marginally better? I'm sorry, but that's laughable.

Using the current D3 rankings as a basis, here's a comparison:

Chicago
#2 Calvin - Win
#7 Trinity - Tie
#10 Emory - Win
#12 North Park - Win
#14 Rochester - Win
#21 Loras - Win
Chicago Record v. top 25: 5-0-1 with 4 wins against the top 15

Upcoming games:
#13 Carnegie Mellon
#23 Case Western

Messiah
#17 Cortland State - Tie
#19 Montclair State - Win
#24 Johns Hopkins - Tie
Messiah Record v. top 25: 1-0-2 with 0 wins against the top 15

Upcoming games:
#18 Lycoming

Based on the current rankings, Chicago will have played 8 ranked teams compared to Messiah's 4. Chicago will have played 5 teams in the top 15 compared to Messiah's 0.

While I'm in no way arguing that Chicago is the better team, to say that Chicago's schedule is marginally better, or to say that Messiah deserves to be ranked ahead of them is laughable.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TyWebb on October 09, 2018, 02:07:58 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on October 09, 2018, 01:56:24 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 08, 2018, 08:29:43 PM
Messiah hasn't lost, but they do have two draws, which generally count as blemishes for rankings and NCAA seedings purposes.  Chicago has had a marginally tougher schedule and only one blemish.

Marginally better? I'm sorry, but that's laughable.

Using the current D3 rankings as a basis, here's a comparison:

Chicago
#2 Calvin - Win
#7 Trinity - Tie
#10 Emory - Win
#12 North Park - Win
#14 Rochester - Win
#21 Loras - Win
Chicago Record v. top 25: 5-0-1 with 4 wins against the top 15

Upcoming games:
#13 Carnegie Mellon
#23 Case Western

Messiah
#17 Cortland State - Tie
#19 Montclair State - Win
#24 Johns Hopkins - Win
Messiah Record v. top 25: 2-0-1 with 0 wins against the top 15

Upcoming games:
#18 Lycoming

Based on the current rankings, Chicago will have played 8 ranked teams compared to Messiah's 4. Chicago will have played 5 teams in the top 15 compared to Messiah's 0.

While I'm in no way arguing that Chicago is the better team, to say that Chicago's schedule is marginally better, or to say that Messiah deserves to be ranked ahead of them is laughable.

Just a minor correction. Messiah tied Johns Hopkins 2-2 after falling behind in the match 2-0. It was one of the more entertaining games I've watched this season.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 09, 2018, 02:18:41 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on October 09, 2018, 01:56:24 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 08, 2018, 08:29:43 PM
Messiah hasn't lost, but they do have two draws, which generally count as blemishes for rankings and NCAA seedings purposes.  Chicago has had a marginally tougher schedule and only one blemish.

Marginally better? I'm sorry, but that's laughable.

Using the current D3 rankings as a basis, here's a comparison:

Chicago
#2 Calvin - Win
#7 Trinity - Tie
#10 Emory - Win
#12 North Park - Win
#14 Rochester - Win
#21 Loras - Win
Chicago Record v. top 25: 5-0-1 with 4 wins against the top 15

Upcoming games:
#13 Carnegie Mellon
#23 Case Western

Messiah
#17 Cortland State - Tie
#19 Montclair State - Win
#24 Johns Hopkins - Win
Messiah Record v. top 25: 2-0-1 with 0 wins against the top 15

Upcoming games:
#18 Lycoming

Based on the current rankings, Chicago will have played 8 ranked teams compared to Messiah's 4. Chicago will have played 5 teams in the top 15 compared to Messiah's 0.

While I'm in no way arguing that Chicago is the better team, to say that Chicago's schedule is marginally better, or to say that Messiah deserves to be ranked ahead of them is laughable.

LOL.  Fine.  I retract the word 'marginal.'  Was just trying to point out that Messiah has played some good teams, and other than Calvin, if you put aside the rankings, Montclair, Cortland and JHU stack up pretty well against the others you listed for Chicago, with Lycoming certainly on par with at least a couple of those listed as well.  Also didn't say Messiah deserved to be ahead of Chicago in the "official" rankings as I explained with my own mock poll. 

And just to agree with you more clearly, by the end of the season Chicago will have played a substantially tougher schedule than Messiah.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 09, 2018, 02:57:53 PM
NEsoccerfan, I must feel bad...I will bolster your thesis even further.  I wonder if Chicago will flirt with the highest SoS in D3 history.  The away games with Calvin and Trinity, teams that will win 19-20 with only 1-2 losses, Loras who likely will end up with only a couple of losses, and the others with very good win percentages with no teams with very poor records should push Chicago close to or over .700.

Uh oh...very sloppy today.  I missed Carroll and Elmhurst at a combined 1-21-2.  And a middling Carthage still to play.  So maybe no SoS record but a very impressive schedule nonetheless which of course includes the UAA gauntlet.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NEsoccerfan on October 09, 2018, 03:41:25 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 09, 2018, 02:57:53 PM
NEsoccerfan, I must feel bad...I will bolster your thesis even further.  I wonder if Chicago will flirt with the highest SoS in D3 history.  The away games with Calvin and Trinity, teams that will win 19-20 with only 1-2 losses, Loras who likely will end up with only a couple of losses, and the others with very good win percentages with no teams with very poor records should push Chicago close to or over .700.

Uh oh...very sloppy today.  I missed Carroll and Elmhurst at a combined 1-21-2.  And a middling Carthage still to play.  So maybe no SoS record but a very impressive schedule nonetheless which of course includes the UAA gauntlet.

After rereading my post, it came off as quite snarky/rude. My apologies. I'm actually not even a Chicago supporter at all (full disclosure: Brandeis is my team, so I'm currently cheering against Chicago), but I have had the opportunity to watch them quite often over the last few years.

Messiah is undoubtedly the best program in D3 history, and arguably the best program over the last 20, 10, and 5 year spans. However, rankings should be based on this year's results alone, and Chicago has the better schedule/results/resume.

I really do hope these two teams meet one another in the tournament, as it has the potential to go down as one of the best match-ups in the last number of years.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 09, 2018, 03:50:50 PM
Well Messiah lost their 2 First Place Votes this week and Chicago has racked up all of them except that one pesky biased voter who keeps giving St.Joe's(ME) the one first place vote that is not deserved.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on October 09, 2018, 04:01:36 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 09, 2018, 03:50:50 PM
Well Messiah lost their 2 First Place Votes this week and Chicago has racked up all of them except that one pesky biased voter who keeps giving St.Joe's(ME) the one first place vote that is not deserved.

Methinks OldNed has hacked his way into the voting process...

;)
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 09, 2018, 04:15:56 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on October 09, 2018, 03:41:25 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 09, 2018, 02:57:53 PM
NEsoccerfan, I must feel bad...I will bolster your thesis even further.  I wonder if Chicago will flirt with the highest SoS in D3 history.  The away games with Calvin and Trinity, teams that will win 19-20 with only 1-2 losses, Loras who likely will end up with only a couple of losses, and the others with very good win percentages with no teams with very poor records should push Chicago close to or over .700.

Uh oh...very sloppy today.  I missed Carroll and Elmhurst at a combined 1-21-2.  And a middling Carthage still to play.  So maybe no SoS record but a very impressive schedule nonetheless which of course includes the UAA gauntlet.

After rereading my post, it came off as quite snarky/rude. My apologies. I'm actually not even a Chicago supporter at all (full disclosure: Brandeis is my team, so I'm currently cheering against Chicago), but I have had the opportunity to watch them quite often over the last few years.

Messiah is undoubtedly the best program in D3 history, and arguably the bet program over the last 20, 10, and 5 year spans. However, rankings should be based on this year's results alone, and Chicago has the better schedule/results/resume.

I really do hope these two teams meet one another in the tournament, as it has the potential to go down as one of the best match-ups in the last number of years.

Yeah, I probably know you....like pretty well actually.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 09, 2018, 04:16:51 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on October 09, 2018, 04:01:36 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 09, 2018, 03:50:50 PM
Well Messiah lost their 2 First Place Votes this week and Chicago has racked up all of them except that one pesky biased voter who keeps giving St.Joe's(ME) the one first place vote that is not deserved.

Methinks OldNed has hacked his way into the voting process...

;)

Common knowledge that OldNed hails from the old Soviet Union.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: OldNed on October 09, 2018, 04:18:18 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on October 09, 2018, 04:01:36 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 09, 2018, 03:50:50 PM
Well Messiah lost their 2 First Place Votes this week and Chicago has racked up all of them except that one pesky biased voter who keeps giving St.Joe's(ME) the one first place vote that is not deserved.

Methinks OldNed has hacked his way into the voting process...

;)

I wish I had the chops for that, Blooter, but no dice.  And as biased as I am, I can admit that one pesky voter is certainly misguided. 
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: OldNed on October 09, 2018, 04:19:11 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 09, 2018, 04:16:51 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on October 09, 2018, 04:01:36 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 09, 2018, 03:50:50 PM
Well Messiah lost their 2 First Place Votes this week and Chicago has racked up all of them except that one pesky biased voter who keeps giving St.Joe's(ME) the one first place vote that is not deserved.

Methinks OldNed has hacked his way into the voting process...

;)

Common knowledge that OldNed hails from the old Soviet Union.

You guys crack me up... ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NEsoccerfan on October 09, 2018, 04:52:34 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 09, 2018, 04:15:56 PM
Quote from: NEsoccerfan on October 09, 2018, 03:41:25 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 09, 2018, 02:57:53 PM
NEsoccerfan, I must feel bad...I will bolster your thesis even further.  I wonder if Chicago will flirt with the highest SoS in D3 history.  The away games with Calvin and Trinity, teams that will win 19-20 with only 1-2 losses, Loras who likely will end up with only a couple of losses, and the others with very good win percentages with no teams with very poor records should push Chicago close to or over .700.

Uh oh...very sloppy today.  I missed Carroll and Elmhurst at a combined 1-21-2.  And a middling Carthage still to play.  So maybe no SoS record but a very impressive schedule nonetheless which of course includes the UAA gauntlet.

After rereading my post, it came off as quite snarky/rude. My apologies. I'm actually not even a Chicago supporter at all (full disclosure: Brandeis is my team, so I'm currently cheering against Chicago), but I have had the opportunity to watch them quite often over the last few years.

Messiah is undoubtedly the best program in D3 history, and arguably the bet program over the last 20, 10, and 5 year spans. However, rankings should be based on this year's results alone, and Chicago has the better schedule/results/resume.

I really do hope these two teams meet one another in the tournament, as it has the potential to go down as one of the best match-ups in the last number of years.

Yeah, I probably know you....like pretty well actually.

Just sent you a PM.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 09, 2018, 08:49:55 PM
I really hate to say this because I don't even like Tufts....but the Jumbos are really, really good.  No one is going to blow them out.  My only question is why they don't win by bigger margins, as that allows the chance of losing on one mistake, a ref error, PKs, etc.  They have a great combination of pressing, winning the ball back quickly, possessing, being physical when needed, just being a huge team in general but still with very good overall team speed and playmaking....Lane has really played well tonight.

Other than all of us getting our own faves through to the Final Four it sure would be a treat to see Tufts, Chicago, Messiah and Calvin get there.  Tufts may lose on Saturday to Conn College but based on watching the two big games today Tufts is head and shoulders better than Conn, Amherst and the rest of the NESCAC.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 10, 2018, 10:28:47 AM
Tufts is the most talented team in Nescac and have the most depth but are not head and shoulders better than anyone in Nescac except the bottom feeders. Seems like they easily handled Babson last night BUT they look much faster and more skilled on turf. They have only played one game on grass as Saturday at Conn will be their second game. Conn's starting 11(including Manoogian who will miss the game) is just as good as Tufts. It is the depth that gives Tufts such an edge over every other Nescac team. The game this past Saturday up at Midd was extremely even and Midd could have Won it. Tufts IMO has still not solved their issue of scoring goals. Braun has been getting it done lately but teams with big tough defenders can take him out of the game as Middlebury did which is why Shapiro went to Jacobs about 15 minutes in. Not sure if Conn will win the game but it will not be a half field scrimmage like last year I can promise you that,
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 13, 2018, 01:32:11 PM
Very good game with Hopkins up on F&M 2-1 in 1st half.  Announcer spending ton of time with the JHU baseball play by play guy talking 2019 JHU baseball.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 13, 2018, 04:37:48 PM
Huge win for JHU....makes draw with Messiah look very legit.

Mary Washington loses at Salisbury.

Loras down 2-0 early to Simpson.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 13, 2018, 05:12:51 PM
Failed to mention SLU's win over Vassar, 3-1.

Tufts and Conn end 0-0.  I think both teams leave feeling pretty good about things.  Marcucci is special.  Tufts is deep.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on October 15, 2018, 10:35:37 AM
MAF Top 25
1. Messiah
2. Tufts
3. Chicago
4. Calvin
5. St. Joe's Me
6. Lynchburg
7. CT College
8. Trinity
9. Montclair
10. Kenyon
11. Rochester
12. Cortland
13. Stevens
14. Lycoming
15. OWU
16. Case Western
17. Hopkins
18. CMU
19. F&M
20. Hope
21. MW
22. Texas Tyler
23. St. Norbert
24. Ithaca
25. Loras/North Park
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on October 15, 2018, 11:29:16 AM
MAF what's your Elite 8 // FINAL FOUR projections?

Chicago over Calvin
Messiah over Tufts

Messiah over Chicago

Elite 8:  Conn, Brandeis, JHU, probably Trinity TX

I really have no feel for the South Atlantic, have not watched the ODAC or CAC... NJAC is a mystery and I don't know if they will have a team reach Elite 8.   

Can Brandeis get in... what a brutal remaining schedule with Amherst, @ WashU, @ Chicago, @NYU.   SIX blemishes already and should finish out 3-1 or 2-1-1.  8 blemishes with that SOS should get them in, but probably not.

Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 15, 2018, 12:48:34 PM
Paul Newman's Own Top 25 (Oct. 15)

1)  Messiah
2)  Tufts
3)  Calvin
4)  Chicago
5)  Conn College
6)  Lynchburg
7)  St Joseph's (ME) -- OK, I capitulate!
8)  Cortland St
9)  Trinity (TX)
10)  CWRU
11) Montclair St
12) Rochester
13) Kenyon
14) Johns Hopkins
15) North Park
16) OWU
17) Lycoming
18) Amherst
19) Stevens
20) Franklin & Marshall
21) SLU
22) Washington & Lee
23) Gustavus Adolphus
24) Willamette
25) Texas-Tyler/Hope/Clarement-Mudd-Scripps

RV -- Carleton, Salve Regina, Mary Washington, Middlebury, Bowdoin, Williams, Loras, Rowan, Ramapo, RUC, Brandeis, CMU, JCU, Capital, Dickinson, Haverford, Salisbury, Redlands, NYU, Luther, Endicott, ECSU, Roger Williams, Mt. Union, DePauw, Oneonta St, Oglethorpe, St Thomas, Emory, Texas-Dallas, WPI, Babson, Eastern
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on October 17, 2018, 12:19:39 PM
 Do the NCAA regional rankings go up end of today?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 17, 2018, 12:32:07 PM
Usually 3pm-5pm IIRC
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 17, 2018, 12:50:37 PM
So much for the Travis family duo at Coe College. Sonny Travis left Emory to become the Coe AD and he brought his son Matt Travis in to be Head Coach of Men's Soccer. Now I am not familiar at all with what he was left with but they did have 3 Wins last season. Coe is 0-11-1 overall and 0-5-0 in their conference. First of all, Travis is extremely young to be a Head Coach and while he spent maybe 4 years as an assistant(2 at Amherst) he still has to be the youngest Head Coach in D3. Most schools do not even allow the AD or Head Coaches to hire immediate family because of obvious issues that can come up. Nescac fans will be interested to know that Travis convinced recently graduated Amherst GK Lee Owen to join him as an Assistant. They have scored a total of 4 Goals in 12 Games this season and while they were getting blown off the field to begin the year they do seem to be doing a bit better on the defensive end as they have a couple 1 Goal losses the past few games. Sonny Travis has given his son an opportunity that many assistants need 6-7-8 years to get. He will get important Head Coaching experience and because this program IS SO BAD he will be given credit if he can turn it around even a little. This could be a stepping stone for the kid to get a better job and on and on it goes. I never said life was fair but is it possible to turn this around at a 4 year LAC in Cedar Rapids?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on October 17, 2018, 01:36:23 PM

St. Joseph's now unbeaten in 36 games with 2 games remaining, plus 3 conference playoff games... they should pass Amherst.   Depending on match-ups, they should survive the first weekend of the tournament...

66 Wheaton (IL) Sept. 1, 1996 Nov. 14, 1998
60 St. Lawrence Nov. 19, 1997 Nov. 12, 2000
46 Messiah Nov. 13, 2004 Oct. 28, 2006
43 Trinity (TX) Aug. 29, 2003 Nov. 19, 2004
42 Oberlin Oct. 28, 1950 Oct. 8, 1955
42 Messiah Sept. 4, 2010 Nov. 5, 2011
40 Amherst Sept. 8, 2012 Nov. 23, 2013
39 Wheaton (IL) 1984 1985
37 Rutgers-Camden Oct. 1, 2012 Dec. 6, 2013
34 Macalester Oct. 9, 1996 Sept. 27, 1998
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dubuquer on October 17, 2018, 02:54:36 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 17, 2018, 12:50:37 PM
So much for the Travis family duo at Coe College. Sonny Travis left Emory to become the Coe AD and he brought his son Matt Travis in to be Head Coach of Men's Soccer. Now I am not familiar at all with what he was left with but they did have 3 Wins last season. Coe is 0-11-1 overall and 0-5-0 in their conference. First of all, Travis is extremely young to be a Head Coach and while he spent maybe 4 years as an assistant(2 at Amherst) he still has to be the youngest Head Coach in D3. Most schools do not even allow the AD or Head Coaches to hire immediate family because of obvious issues that can come up. Nescac fans will be interested to know that Travis convinced recently graduated Amherst GK Lee Owen to join him as an Assistant. They have scored a total of 4 Goals in 12 Games this season and while they were getting blown off the field to begin the year they do seem to be doing a bit better on the defensive end as they have a couple 1 Goal losses the past few games. Sonny Travis has given his son an opportunity that many assistants need 6-7-8 years to get. He will get important Head Coaching experience and because this program IS SO BAD he will be given credit if he can turn it around even a little. This could be a stepping stone for the kid to get a better job and on and on it goes. I never said life was fair but is it possible to turn this around at a 4 year LAC in Cedar Rapids?

Looking at the Coe roster there are 3 seniors and a junior.  Everyone else is a first- or second-year.  I think it's fair to say he wasn't left with much.  I hope he is able to turn around the program and make it competitive.  It would be nice to have another competitive team in the IIAC.  Dang it. ARC, not IIAC...  That habit will be hard to break.  My guess is that in 2-3 years Coe is competing with the mid-tier ARC teams.  There are certainly enough good D3-caliber players in the local Iowa City/Cedar Rapids area that if the Travises can get a foothold in recruiting there they could see some quick improvement. 
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 17, 2018, 02:55:45 PM
The rankings are always so strange.  Emory 0-4-1 in last 5 and comes in at #4 or #5 in South Atlantic and undefeated Lynchburg UNRANKED (unless there is an error).
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on October 17, 2018, 02:58:17 PM
http://web1.ncaa.org/champsel_new/exec/pdf/staticpdfrank

SOS   

Lynchburg SOS .522
Lycoming also similar boat with a .516 SOS ranked 9th
St. Joseph's ME .513 SOS  ranked 11th
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 17, 2018, 03:05:59 PM
Just can't completely plan for this....if you just look at Lynchburg's schedule it looks good-----Oberlin, Dickinson, Mary Wash, Christopher Newport, Roanoke, W&L....can't account for Oberlin having a horrendous season with only 1 win and CNU also having an extremely off year for them....
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 17, 2018, 03:54:31 PM
Pretty sure Brockport St got the shaft in the East but maybe they enter the picture next week. How far can that Cortland St Win carry New Paltz? After that I am not seeing much....
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on October 17, 2018, 03:57:30 PM
NEW ENGLAND REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 17, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Connecticut College
10-0-2
0.623
--
10-0-2
--
2.
Tufts
11-0-2
0.602
--
11-0-2
--
3.
Roger Williams
13-2-0
0.576
--
13-2-0
--
4.
Amherst
8-3-1
0.623
--
8-3-1
--
5.
Endicott
8-4-2
0.620
--
8-4-2
--
6.
Springfield
10-3-0
0.550
--
10-3-0
--
7.
Middlebury
7-2-3
0.565
--
7-2-3
--
8.
Babson
7-2-4
0.568
--
7-2-4
--
9.
Brandeis
7-5-1
0.650
--
7-5-1
--
10.
Williams
7-3-2
0.549
--
7-3-2
--
11.
St. Joseph's (Maine)
14-0-0
0.513
--
14-0-0
--
12.
Hamilton
7-5-1
0.586
--
7-5-1
--

EAST REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 17, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Rochester
10-1-1
0.570
--
10-1-1
--
2.
Cortland State
12-1-2
0.570
--
12-1-2
--
3.
New York University
10-3-0
0.565
--
10-3-0
--
4.
St. Lawrence
9-2-2
0.560
--
9-2-2
--
5.
Oneonta State
8-3-4
0.598
--
8-3-4
--
6.
Vassar
8-4-0
0.608
--
8-4-0
--
7.
New Paltz State
10-4-1
0.561
--
10-4-1
--
8.
Ithaca
10-1-3
0.529
--
10-1-3
--

MID-ATLANTIC REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 17, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Messiah
12-0-2
0.591
--
12-0-2
--
2.
Johns Hopkins
10-3-1
0.629
--
10-3-1
--
3.
Eastern
10-2-1
0.587
--
10-2-1
--
4.
Franklin and Marshall
10-2-2
0.618
--
10-2-2
--
5.
Dickinson
9-3-2
0.579
--
9-3-2
--
6.
Haverford
7-4-0
0.626
--
7-4-0
--
7.
Gettysburg
7-4-1
0.579
--
7-4-1
--
8.
Lebanon Valley
7-4-1
0.570
--
7-4-1
--
9.
Lycoming
12-1-1
0.516
--
12-1-1
--
10.
Swarthmore
8-5-1
0.600
--
8-5-1
--

SOUTH ATLANTIC REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 17, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Montclair State
13-1-2
0.560
--
13-1-2
--
2.
Mary Washington
9-1-3
0.578
--
9-1-3
--
3.
Rutgers-Camden
11-3-2
0.584
--
11-3-2
--
4.
Rowan
10-4-0
0.606
--
10-4-0
--
5.
Emory
8-4-1
0.619
--
8-4-1
--
6.
Salisbury
9-2-2
0.558
--
9-2-2
--
7.
York (Pa.)
9-3-2
0.567
--
9-3-2
--
8.
Washington and Lee
7-3-1
0.577
--
7-3-1
--
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NEsoccerfan on October 17, 2018, 03:58:31 PM
TOP 5 SOS thus far:
#1 - Chicago - 0.662
#2 - Brandeis - 0.65
#3 - CMU - 0.647
#4 - JHU - 0.629
#5 - Haverford/JCU - 0.626

Unsurprising that the top 3 most difficult schedules come from the UAA.

Chicago's SOS + current record shows how truly special their season has been.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on October 17, 2018, 03:58:39 PM
GREAT LAKES REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 17, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Case Western Reserve
11-2-1
0.607
--
11-2-1
--
2.
Kenyon
11-1-1
0.572
--
11-1-1
--
3.
Capital
10-3-0
0.595
--
10-3-0
--
4.
Ohio Wesleyan
10-2-1
0.563
--
10-2-1
--
5.
Carnegie Mellon
8-3-2
0.647
--
8-3-2
--
6.
John Carroll
8-4-1
0.626
--
8-4-1
--
7.
Mount Union
10-2-0
0.525
--
10-2-0
--
8.
Ohio Northern
9-4-1
0.540
--
9-4-1
--

CENTRAL REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 17, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Chicago
12-1-1
0.662
--
12-1-1
--
2.
Calvin
11-1-0
0.618
--
12-1-0
--
3.
Hope
9-1-1
0.569
--
11-1-1
--
4.
Millikin
8-4-0
0.557
--
8-4-0
--
5.
North Central (Ill.)
8-4-0
0.556
--
8-4-0
--
6.
North Park
11-2-0
0.524
--
11-2-0
--
7.
Benedictine
9-6-0
0.550
--
9-6-0
--

NORTH REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 17, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Gustavus Adolphus
9-1-1
0.574
--
10-1-1
--
2.
Luther
10-3-1
0.578
--
10-3-1
--
3.
UW-Platteville
8-1-2
0.561
--
8-1-2
--
4.
St. Thomas
11-3-1
0.606
--
11-3-1
--
5.
Carleton
9-1-2
0.540
--
9-1-2
--
6.
Augsburg
8-2-2
0.554
--
8-2-2
--
7.
Macalester
8-3-2
0.570
--
8-3-2
--

WEST REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 17, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Redlands
10-2-0
0.550
--
10-3-0
--
2.
Mary Hardin-Baylor
10-3-0
0.549
--
10-3-0
--
3.
Trinity (Texas)
11-1-1
0.523
--
12-1-1
--
4.
Southwestern
9-3-0
0.546
--
9-4-1
--
5.
Claremont-Mudd-Scripps
10-2-0
0.516
--
11-2-0
--
6.
Texas-Dallas
9-1-2
0.523
--
9-1-2
--
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 17, 2018, 04:05:32 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 17, 2018, 03:54:31 PM
Pretty sure Brockport St got the shaft in the East but maybe they enter the picture next week. How far can that Cortland St Win carry New Paltz? After that I am not seeing much....

Their SOS is .527, lower than anyone else ranked in the region. Ithaca almost missed out due to their similarly low .529 SOS.

It will be interesting to see how RvR will effect things next week.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 17, 2018, 04:07:26 PM
Did not look at the SOS but I guessed it would be higher
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 17, 2018, 04:28:42 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 17, 2018, 02:55:45 PM
The rankings are always so strange.  Emory 0-4-1 in last 5 and comes in at #4 or #5 in South Atlantic and undefeated Lynchburg UNRANKED (unless there is an error).

Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 17, 2018, 02:58:17 PM
http://web1.ncaa.org/champsel_new/exec/pdf/staticpdfrank

SOS   

Lynchburg SOS .522
Lycoming also similar boat with a .516 SOS ranked 9th
St. Joseph's ME .513 SOS  ranked 11th

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 17, 2018, 03:05:59 PM
Just can't completely plan for this....if you just look at Lynchburg's schedule it looks good-----Oberlin, Dickinson, Mary Wash, Christopher Newport, Roanoke, W&L....can't account for Oberlin having a horrendous season with only 1 win and CNU also having an extremely off year for them....

Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 17, 2018, 03:10:35 PM
With RvR factored next, Lynchburg will jump...

Lynchburg may have gotten ranked if they had beaten rather than tied Washington & Lee as the head-to-head advantage might have been enough to compensate for the poorer SOS.  Thinking about results versus common opponents, Lynchburg like York tied Mary Washington which doesn't help Lynchburg in the comparison with York, and Salisbury defeated Mary Washington, so even worse in that comparison. Given that this is an extremely quantitative process, you can see how they could get left out even if it doesn't feel right subjectively.  Their RvR next week will be 1-0-2 which might not help them too much.  Depends how it compares to that of W&L, York, Salisbury, etc. to see if it's a criterion can help them move up the pecking order.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 17, 2018, 06:22:13 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 17, 2018, 04:05:32 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 17, 2018, 03:54:31 PM
Pretty sure Brockport St got the shaft in the East but maybe they enter the picture next week. How far can that Cortland St Win carry New Paltz? After that I am not seeing much....

Their SOS is .527, lower than anyone else ranked in the region. Ithaca almost missed out due to their similarly low .529 SOS.

It will be interesting to see how RvR will effect things next week.


Well after looking at the data sheet it is strange Ithaca gets in with a .529 and Hobart at 6-5-2 but a .585 does not get in over them and Hobart beat them 3-0. Maybe 5 losses is to many when your SOS is under .600.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 17, 2018, 08:48:15 PM
OK, Falconer.....I will cast my vote for POY and striker of the decade tonight.  How did you know so early in the season?  I give you full credit and you can wax poetic as much and as long as you like as far as I am concerned.  That was an amazing goal.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 17, 2018, 09:09:53 PM
Wash U the only UAA not ranked...and they probably were close....have beaten CMU and Emory.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on October 17, 2018, 09:15:05 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 17, 2018, 09:09:53 PM
Wash U the only UAA not ranked...and they probably were close....have beaten CMU and Emory.

Interesting then that they were in the USC Top 25 (and third in Central Region) last week. I know USC Regional Polls are not NCAA Regional Rankings, but seems interesting nonetheless.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 17, 2018, 09:21:16 PM
These SOS numbers are so varied....Can someone tell me the difference between Luther and Loras schedule? I mean yes there is 1 or 2 teams that Luther played that Loras did not but then Loras played Chicago and Luther did not play them. Both teams play UW Whitewater but Loars game with them was cancelled. Still the difference was basically .100 points...Luther's SOS was .578 and Loras was like .489 and they are in the same conference. I can see that Luther's schedule is a tad tougher BUT NOT .100 pts....IDK I wish we could go to some sort of regional RPI system
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on October 17, 2018, 09:44:09 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 17, 2018, 08:48:15 PM
OK, Falconer.....I will cast my vote for POY and striker of the decade tonight.  How did you know so early in the season?  I give you full credit and you can wax poetic as much and as long as you like as far as I am concerned.  That was an amazing goal.

I'll accept the compliment, Paul, but I'll keep the wax for my car.  ;D

How did I know it that early? I've seen a large number of top level D3 players, for decades, simply by being blessed with a long life and great Falcon teams, not to mention star visiting players who come to play in Grantham. I notice the subtle changes from season to season, so I could tell almost instinctively that something pretty amazing was happening with West. He was a really good player when he stepped on campus, but I could see that there was something different about him this year, starting with the second game when they let him do whatever he wanted. The killer instinct was there, the stamina even beyond what he's shown before, and the skill set even sharper. He must have done a ton of work over the summer. I couldn't think of a Falcon player from the past who was his equal as an all-around striker, and so I was pretty confident that no one out there elsewhere was in his league. That's what the tradition does: it gives reference points that are meaningful.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on October 17, 2018, 10:18:00 PM
Carthage came into Stagg Field and will walk out with a 1-0 victory over Chicago, as Red Men forward Jeff Montemayor marked in the 66th minute for the lone tally. The Maroons were whistled for offside nine times in this match. It's the first goal a visiting side has scored at Chicago all season.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: gustiefan04 on October 18, 2018, 11:05:34 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 17, 2018, 09:21:16 PM
These SOS numbers are so varied....Can someone tell me the difference between Luther and Loras schedule? I mean yes there is 1 or 2 teams that Luther played that Loras did not but then Loras played Chicago and Luther did not play them. Both teams play UW Whitewater but Loars game with them was cancelled. Still the difference was basically .100 points...Luther's SOS was .578 and Loras was like .489 and they are in the same conference. I can see that Luther's schedule is a tad tougher BUT NOT .100 pts....IDK I wish we could go to some sort of regional RPI system

Luther's non-conference schedule has been stronger than Loras' schedule so far, looking at games played so far. The DuHawks do however have a couple of non-conference games remaining that should improve their SOS and see them pushed into the regional rankings in the next week or two, assuming they can win those matches. Games like Elmhurst, Carthage and St. Olaf, in previous years would help build a strong SOS since they typically produce winning records, however they are all three having a down year - Elmhurst and the Ole's are in particularly rough shape.


Luther - Non-Conference Opponents

St. Scholastica (6-7-2)
UW-Superior (13-2-1)
St. Olaf (3-11)
Gustavus (12-1-1)
Carroll (5-5-1)
UW-Whitewater (7-5-1)
St. Thomas (11-3-1)
UW-Platteville (9-1-2)
Wheaton (9-4-1)
Macalester (8-4-3)

Loras - Non-Conference Schedule

Elmhurst (2-13)
St. Olaf (3-11)
Carthage (9-7)
Chicago (12-2-1)
St. Mary's (5-9-1)
Iowa Wesleyan (5-10-1)
Knox - (11-3-1) - Not yet played
UW-Platteville  (9-1-2)  - Not yet played
UW-Whitewater  (9-1-2) - Not yet played



Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 18, 2018, 11:51:18 AM
Thanks for the comparison and yes I agree Luther's schedule is tougher but once Loras plays those final 3 games IMO they should have a very close SOS with Luther. I mean after Loras plays those games and because they are in the same conference as Luther I cannot imagine their SOS would be more than .10-.15 points behind if that. Right now they are .100 points away and I am curious how it will finish because to me it should finish very close.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on October 18, 2018, 12:30:59 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 17, 2018, 10:18:00 PM
Carthage came into Stagg Field and will walk out with a 1-0 victory over Chicago, as Red Men forward Jeff Montemayor marked in the 66th minute for the lone tally. The Maroons were whistled for offside nine times in this match. It's the first goal a visiting side has scored at Chicago all season.

Wow that's a shocker. Was Chicago missing one of their star strikers?  Looked like Carthage had more SOG so not a fluke it seems.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on October 18, 2018, 03:21:02 PM
No, the Maroons had their full complement, although Matthew Koh didn't start for some reason. Nevertheless, although I only saw the last dozen minutes of the match, Koh was on the pitch that entire time and a lot of what the Maroons were trying to do involved going through him.

"Fluke" is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. From reading both the Carthage and the Chicago gamers, it sounds as though the Red Men had some decent chances, especially in the first half. Their goal came on their only SOG in the second half, and, as Red Men head coach Steve Domin pointed out, it came against the grain. The tally was the aftermath of a corner that the Maroons inadequately cleared, as Montemayor chested down the attempted clearance 25 yards out and sent a strike into the interior of the side netting. The two gamers agree that Carthage keeper Niko Mavrogiannis played really well, but that the Maroons rattled the frame a few times on excellent opportunities.

The Chicago gamer was a bit salty about all of the offsides calls -- the gamer's headline reads, "Close Calls Go Against UChicago Men's Soccer in 1-0 Loss to Carthage" -- and includes this paragraph: "UChicago's offensive forays into the opposing box were consistently hamstrung due to a multitude of controversial offsides calls by the referees. The Maroons were whistled for eight offsides overall in the contest [there were actually nine], including one which wiped out a header goal by Lopez in the first half that would have put the home side up." The U of C broadcaster made mention of that disallowed goal in the final minutes of the match, and you could hear voices in the press box behind him howling with rage every time that an offsides call was whistled. But Domin had six Red Men stationed on the back line, which was formed just outside the crease, for at least the last twelve minutes of the match; although the offsides calls all looked close, it's not always easy to get a proper read from a midline camera on who's in front of whom at one end of the pitch when you've got so many players from both sides lined up for a rush.

The way I see it, if you're one of the two or three best sides in the country and you're on your home turf, you don't let it get to the point where you're struggling in the waning minutes to find the equalizer against an opponent that came into the match with an 8-7 record. That's not to say that Carthage is untalented -- it's a small, quick team mostly made up of players from Chicagoland's Hispanic community, and it's a pain in the neck to stay in front of the Red Men. They're mostly held back by a lack of cohesion in the attacking third; they just don't coordinate very well on offense, and they thus don't score as much as a team with that much speed ought to. But my point is that Chicago never should've been in that position in the first place, and only two of the 11 second-half Chicago shots were on target, so my sympathy for the Maroons regarding that barrage of close-call offsides whistles is limited.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on October 18, 2018, 05:51:02 PM
Is there a link to watch the replay.   I'd like to see some of the botched calls as claimed.

Can't be any worse than the North Park final four.   
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Red Dog on October 19, 2018, 01:04:48 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 17, 2018, 06:22:13 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 17, 2018, 04:05:32 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 17, 2018, 03:54:31 PM
Pretty sure Brockport St got the shaft in the East but maybe they enter the picture next week. How far can that Cortland St Win carry New Paltz? After that I am not seeing much....

Their SOS is .527, lower than anyone else ranked in the region. Ithaca almost missed out due to their similarly low .529 SOS.

It will be interesting to see how RvR will effect things next week.


Well after looking at the data sheet it is strange Ithaca gets in with a .529 and Hobart at 6-5-2 but a .585 does not get in over them and Hobart beat them 3-0. Maybe 5 losses is to many when your SOS is under .600.

I was also curious about how Ithaca ends up higher in the rankings then Hobart does. Ithaca has a good record but other than a tie with Cortland and a win over Hamilton they have not played strong teams out of league. Hobart has not had a lot of success out of league but has played strong teams (cortland, U of R etc). However they did beat Salisbury who is 10-2-2 and 6th in south atlantic and tied St. Mary (10-2-3) and they dominated Ithaca in their 3-0 win as well as having only a single L.L loss to date.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Caz Bombers on October 19, 2018, 04:53:23 PM
Brockport just lost to SUNYAC 8th place Oswego, so there goes all that.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 20, 2018, 07:38:52 PM
Messiah fans, keep an eye out....Chewy Gordon of Capital with a brace in first 15 minutes against Ohio Northern and now sitting at 22.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 20, 2018, 07:57:13 PM
And then it was 23.  Hat trick with a half to play, against pretty legit team in ONU.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on October 20, 2018, 07:58:39 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 20, 2018, 07:38:52 PM
Messiah fans, keep an eye out....Chewy Gordon of Capital with a brace in first 15 minutes against Ohio Northern and now sitting at 22.
\
West heard you, Paul--he got a goal with about 5 minutes left, after assisting on two more. Ties the all-time D3 record of a goal in 15 consecutive games.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 20, 2018, 08:00:18 PM
Quote from: Falconer on October 20, 2018, 07:58:39 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 20, 2018, 07:38:52 PM
Messiah fans, keep an eye out....Chewy Gordon of Capital with a brace in first 15 minutes against Ohio Northern and now sitting at 22.
\
West heard you, Paul--he got a goal with about 5 minutes left, after assisting on two more. Ties the all-time D3 record of a goal in 15 consecutive games.

LOL.  McCarty should have been resting him.  5 minutes left?  Against Widener?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 20, 2018, 08:08:59 PM
Some key results around the country....

St Norbert remains unbeaten with a road win and handing Cornell its first loss of the campaign.

Rochester over Endicott 2-0.  Bowdoin over Conn College.  Haverford with big win over Dickinson and looking in better and better shape.  MW over Christopher Newport.  RPI ripping Ithaca 3-0.  Kenyon over DePauw on the road.  New Paltz besting Oneonta.  Cortland blowing a 2-0 lead and prevailing 3-2 on OT.  Tufts over Williams.  Trine over Hope.  SLU with a win over Skidmore.  Vassar beats Hobart.  Springfield and WPI draw 0-0.  W&L with key ODAC win on the road at Roanoke.  Capital crushing ONU at ONU, 4-0 at the half.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on October 20, 2018, 08:27:17 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 20, 2018, 08:00:18 PM
Quote from: Falconer on October 20, 2018, 07:58:39 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 20, 2018, 07:38:52 PM
Messiah fans, keep an eye out....Chewy Gordon of Capital with a brace in first 15 minutes against Ohio Northern and now sitting at 22.
\
West heard you, Paul--he got a goal with about 5 minutes left, after assisting on two more. Ties the all-time D3 record of a goal in 15 consecutive games.

LOL.  McCarty should have been resting him.  5 minutes left?  Against Widener?
d
His teammates really wanted him to get it.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 20, 2018, 08:32:35 PM
Absolutely....just having fun...although that kind of stuff can get tricky.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 21, 2018, 10:10:51 AM
Paul Newman's Own Top 25 (10/21/18)

1)  Messiah
2)  Tufts
3)  Calvin
4)  St Joseph's (ME)

5)  Montclair St
6)  Cortland St
7)  Trinity (TX)
8)  Chicago

9)  Rochester
10) Conn College
11) CWRU
12) Kenyon

13) North Park
14) Johns Hopkins
15) OWU
16) Lynchburg

17) Lycoming
18) Franklin & Marshall
19) Bowdoin
20) Stevens

21) Washington & Lee
22) Capital
23) SLU
24) Mary Washington
25) Ramapo/GAC/Oglethorpe (TIE)

RV -- (in order) -- Haverford, Amherst, Salisbury, Eastern, Carleton, St. Norbert, John Carroll, Middlebury, CMU, Salve Regina, RUC, Willamette, Texas-Dallas
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on October 21, 2018, 10:25:18 AM
Quote from: Falconer on October 20, 2018, 08:27:17 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 20, 2018, 08:00:18 PM
Quote from: Falconer on October 20, 2018, 07:58:39 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 20, 2018, 07:38:52 PM
Messiah fans, keep an eye out....Chewy Gordon of Capital with a brace in first 15 minutes against Ohio Northern and now sitting at 22.
\
West heard you, Paul--he got a goal with about 5 minutes left, after assisting on two more. Ties the all-time D3 record of a goal in 15 consecutive games.

LOL.  McCarty should have been resting him.  5 minutes left?  Against Widener?
d
His teammates really wanted him to get it.

Coach also subbed him for 15 minutes before putting him.back in with maybe 13 minutes left and score was 3-0 at that point. Last 2 goals with less than 4 minutes remaining. Typical sub pattern for second half.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 21, 2018, 07:24:16 PM
Quote from: rudy on October 21, 2018, 10:25:18 AM
Quote from: Falconer on October 20, 2018, 08:27:17 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 20, 2018, 08:00:18 PM
Quote from: Falconer on October 20, 2018, 07:58:39 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 20, 2018, 07:38:52 PM
Messiah fans, keep an eye out....Chewy Gordon of Capital with a brace in first 15 minutes against Ohio Northern and now sitting at 22.
\
West heard you, Paul--he got a goal with about 5 minutes left, after assisting on two more. Ties the all-time D3 record of a goal in 15 consecutive games.

LOL.  McCarty should have been resting him.  5 minutes left?  Against Widener?
d
His teammates really wanted him to get it.

Coach also subbed him for 15 minutes before putting him.back in with maybe 13 minutes left and score was 3-0 at that point. Last 2 goals with less than 4 minutes remaining. Typical sub pattern for second half.

Normal sub pattern in a 3-0 game to have your AA player still in with 4 minutes left?  No need to defend it.  I'm sure I would have had him in to get or break a record if I was the coach.  Interesting that the Messiah recap mentions "Chew" Chewy Gordon!  Also of interest is that
according to the play-by-play readout Gordon was subbed for in the 57th minute and did not return to action for the evening.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 21, 2018, 11:55:15 PM
The default subbing pattern for Nick West (and many starters) is to come out around the 65th minute and return around the 80th minute, however, if the game is clearly in hand (a lead of 3 or more) before he'd normally sub back in, he does not return. On the other hand, losing, tied or with just a 1-goal lead, he'll spend less time out or never sub out (i.e. Hopkins game). In the three games previous to the Lycoming game against Albright, Lebanon Valley, and Alvernia, Nick West was subbed out near the 65 minute mark with leads of 3-0, 3-0 and 2-0, respectively, and did not return in eventual 4-0, 5-1 and 3-0 wins, respectively.  So no doubt, Nick West was subbed back in to see if he could keep the consecutive game streak alive. Despite the game recap mentioning Chewy Gordon, I highly doubt West would have returned to help him maintain his national goal-scoring lead (and the coaching staff wouldn't have known Chewy had registered a hattrick until after the game, if they are even paying attention to that).

For the crowd, at least the regular fans (many would not have been aware as it was Homecoming), West's pursuit of tying the D-III record added an additional edge to watching the game, especially up 3-0 with no fear that Widener would get back in the game.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 22, 2018, 10:06:27 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 21, 2018, 11:55:15 PM
The default subbing pattern for Nick West (and many starters) is to come out around the 65th minute and return around the 80th minute, however, if the game is clearly in hand (a lead of 3 or more) before he'd normally sub back in, he does not return. On the other hand, losing, tied or with just a 1-goal lead, he'll spend less time out or never sub out (i.e. Hopkins game). In the three games previous to the Lycoming game against Albright, Lebanon Valley, and Alvernia, Nick West was subbed out near the 65 minute mark with leads of 3-0, 3-0 and 2-0, respectively, and did not return in eventual 4-0, 5-1 and 3-0 wins, respectively.  So no doubt, Nick West was subbed back in to see if he could keep the consecutive game streak alive. Despite the game recap mentioning Chewy Gordon, I highly doubt West would have returned to help him maintain his national goal-scoring lead (and the coaching staff wouldn't have known Chewy had registered a hattrick until after the game, if they are even paying attention to that).

For the crowd, at least the regular fans (many would not have been aware as it was Homecoming), West's pursuit of tying the D-III record added an additional edge to watching the game, especially up 3-0 with no fear that Widener would get back in the game.

Understood.  I didn't mean to imply that West would have re-entered just to maintain the goal-scoring lead.  He's got more games to go to deal with that.  And if Chewy Gordon had a chance to keep a streak going for an all-time NCAA record I would guess Capital's coach would have given him a shot at that. I'm not as moved by the idea that some fans were treated to an additional edge to watching the game, although I can totally get that as a fan I would be pulling hard for a player to match or break a record.

West deserves every award and accolade that he gets this year.  As I have said, I agree that he is the top player in the country this season, and probably by a wide margin....and may well deserve a lofty status all-time (although others here like yourself have a better perspective for commenting on that).  It just occurred to me while watching some of the Capital-ONU game that this Gordon kid is also having a spectacular season and deserved some attention in this forum.  And that's also why I asked Domino1195 to provide some color on Gordon's story.  The nod to Gordon in the Messiah recap was a nice touch.  There may be other players having phenomenal seasons...would be great to hear about them as well.

P.S.  FWIW, Messiah and Capital have virtually identical SoS's.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 22, 2018, 10:26:50 AM
Speaking of SoS, have programs become more aware and proactive in recent years, or has that always been the case?  It seems that some are going higher and higher, like with the UAA schools, but perhaps they always have been this high.  Chicago, CMU and Wash U (and maybe a few others) should be pushing .675 when all is said and done. 

I am curious about Wash U....not ranked last week, but this week will 6-6-1, with a SoS over .650, and I think a RvR of 2-3-1.  Does that get them ranked?  And is it conceivable that Wash U could get a bid if they end up 7-8-1 or 7-7-2 with a SoS north of .670 and RvR of something like 3-4-2/3-3-3?  Has a team ever gotten a Pool C with a record or .500 or below?

This may be in one of Shirk's articles about the process, but has SoS always played such a big role in rankings, like 15-20 years ago, or just over the past 8-10 years?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on October 22, 2018, 12:01:49 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 22, 2018, 10:26:50 AM
Speaking of SoS, have programs become more aware and proactive in recent years, or has that always been the case?  It seems that some are going higher and higher, like with the UAA schools, but perhaps they always have been this high.  Chicago, CMU and Wash U (and maybe a few others) should be pushing .675 when all is said and done.

I'm sure that every coach tries to be strategic about non-conference scheduling, if that's at all possible. (Sometimes there are extenuating circumstances such as geography that make it impossible to schedule to a coach's liking.) However, it's frequently a crapshoot, as you can't always predict from year to year how your prospective opponents will fare, especially if you're signing multi-year contracts three or four years out.

Of course, the UAA enjoys a plenitude of advantages in this regard, since each coach can strategically schedule locally and his conference peers can then reap the advantages without there being the disadvantage of other sides in the league knocking down the records of those non-conference opponents. Naturally, the UAA programs as a whole have to be inherently solid in order for this advantage to really take effect.

To use the program I follow as an example of how hard it can be to schedule strategically, North Park was hampered in the first regional ranking by the fact that the Vikings had a lowly .525 SoS. But two of the better Chicagoland non-con opponents that the Vikings annually play, Dominican and Aurora, are having relatively down seasons by the standards of those two programs, as is annual trophy-match rival UW-Whitewater. And the bottom has completely fallen out in 2018 for two traditionally solid programs, Thomas More and Dubuque, that I'm sure NPU head coach John Born had scheduled a year or two ago when the ongoing competitiveness of the Saints and the Spartans looked a whole lot healthier. The CCIW's had its problems as well, as Carthage and Elmhurst (to cite the two other programs besides perennial powers NPU and Wheaton that've been to the D3 playoffs over the past decade) are both dramatically underperforming -- and NPU had already played both prior to last week's ranking and gotten no SoS help from the two.

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 22, 2018, 10:26:50 AMI am curious about Wash U....not ranked last week, but this week will 6-6-1, with a SoS over .650, and I think a RvR of 2-3-1.  Does that get them ranked?  And is it conceivable that Wash U could get a bid if they end up 7-8-1 or 7-7-2 with a SoS north of .670 and RvR of something like 3-4-2/3-3-3?

The SoS numbers obviously matter greatly, since, again using North Park as an example, the Vikings were slotted below North Central last week, in spite of the fact that the winning percentage for NPU was a lofty .846 at the time (11-2) and NCC's was only .667 (8-4). The disparity between SoS numbers -- NPU's was .525, while NCC's was .566 -- more than offset the gap in W% in the eyes of the committee. (Of course, that will change this week, as North Park won two matches and the Cardinals lost their pair, including a 2-1 win for NPU at North Central on Saturday.) It was even worse for the likes of MWC stalwarts St. Norbert and Cornell, as neither got ranked at all in spite of even gaudier winning percentages than NPU's (both were undefeated at the time of last week's ranking, with SNC blemished only by a single tie and Cornell having tied twice), reflecting the weakness of the MWC.

Getting back to the Bears, it actually looks wide open for Wash U to get ranked and then rapidly climb the Central Region ladder if the Bears can finish with a flourish. They take their annual East Coast road trip this weekend, playing at Brandeis on Friday and at NYU on Sunday; winning those two matches will be formidable tasks, to say nothing of the annual rivalry match against Chicago in St. Louis a week from Saturday that closes out the slate for the Bears -- but the Bears will end the regular season with an SoS that is absolutely stratospheric.

The initial Central Region ranking turned out to be a jinx for most of the teams listed, as five of the seven sides (Chicago, Hope, Millikin, North Central, and Benedictine) took one on the chin last week, with NCC dropping a pair and Millikin suffering a tie in addition to its loss. I would expect North Central and Benedictine to drop out entirely this week, with North Park moving up to fourth behind Chicago, Calvin, and Hope, and Wheaton moving into the ranking at fifth (which is good news for Wash U, as it'll give the Bears another win over a regionally ranked opponent). Millikin might hang on by its fingernails in sixth or seventh, or it might drop out altogether, but at least one other spot aside from the one that Wheaton will claim will be opening up. Who will get it? Carthage? (http://www.d3soccer.com/teams/Carthage/Men/2018-19/index) (The Red Men are only 9-7-1, but they've run a fearsome gauntlet of opponents this season, so their SoS is high -- and, of course, the Red Men did beat Chicago down on the South Side this past week.) Does St. Norbert (http://www.d3soccer.com/teams/St._Norbert/Men/2018-19/index) finally crack the ranking, now that the Green Knights have beaten Cornell this past Saturday (and in Mount Vernon, no less)? Does another NACC side take Benedictine's slot (presumably MSOE (http://www.d3soccer.com/teams/MSOE/Men/2018-19/index), which at 13-3, 9-1 has just clinched the NACC title and first seed in the NACC playoffs)? Or do the Bears (http://www.d3soccer.com/teams/Washington_U./Men/2018-19/index) somehow sneak in?

If Wash U did get ranked this week, it would really be a statement about the sogginess at the bottom of the Central Region if an unranked side found its way into the next week's rankings despite losing a match in the intervening week (the Bears were beaten by UW-Whitewater yesterday, 1-0).

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 22, 2018, 10:26:50 AM
  Has a team ever gotten a Pool C with a record or .500 or below?

I don't know. That sounds like a Christan Shirk question to me. ;)

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 22, 2018, 10:26:50 AMThis may be in one of Shirk's articles about the process, but has SoS always played such a big role in rankings, like 15-20 years ago, or just over the past 8-10 years?

Again, Christan may be better equipped to answer that question than anybody else.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on October 22, 2018, 12:45:30 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 22, 2018, 10:06:27 AMIt just occurred to me while watching some of the Capital-ONU game that this Gordon kid is also having a spectacular season and deserved some attention in this forum.  And that's also why I asked Domino1195 to provide some color on Gordon's story.  The nod to Gordon in the Messiah recap was a nice touch.  There may be other players having phenomenal seasons...would be great to hear about them as well.

P.S.  FWIW, Messiah and Capital have virtually identical SoS's.

I totally agree, Paul. Prior to this past week (when he had two hat tricks), Gordon wasn't on my radar as a potential challenger for most goals in 2018. A couple other guys were, including Joseph Fala of Ramapo, who currently has this stat line:
21 goals, 6 assists, 48 points, on 113 shots attempted.

But, clearly Gordon might overtake West in goals scored--depending on how far each man's team progresses. Both teams are probably now locks for a tournament bid. Wouldn't it be just terrific to see a Capitol-Messiah game at some point, maybe in the Final Four, with each guy getting 2 or 3 goals? I for one would love that! Far too many low scoring games for my taste in the final rounds.

I've never seen Gordon play, either in person or streaming. So, forgive my curiosity: what type of game does he play? He has 23 goals, just 1 assist, on an amazing number of only 62 total shots. West has 24 & 4 on 92 shots. Now, given where West shoots from--pretty much anywhere in the attacking third--I think 24 goals on 92 shots is terrific, much better than most other strikers. But, Gordon just blows that away. The single assist and the incredible shot % suggest to me that Gordon gets most of his goals from close in, after being fed by teammates, with perhaps the occasional self-created SOG. But, having never seen him play at all, I literally don't know what I'm talking about.

Who's actually seen Gordon play a few games? What's his game like?

Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: WUPHF on October 22, 2018, 01:01:35 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 22, 2018, 12:01:49 PM
Getting back to the Bears, it actually looks wide open for Wash U to get ranked and then rapidly climb the Central Region ladder if the Bears can finish with a flourish. They take their annual East Coast road trip this weekend, playing at Brandeis on Friday and at NYU on Sunday; [...]

After traveling for the last month, Washington University will play their final three games in the Francis Olympic Stadium.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 22, 2018, 01:06:40 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 21, 2018, 10:10:51 AM
Paul Newman's Own Top 25 (10/21/18)

1)  Messiah
2)  Tufts
3)  Calvin
4)  St Joseph's (ME)

5)  Montclair St
6)  Cortland St
7)  Trinity (TX)
8)  Chicago

9)  Rochester
10) Conn College
11) CWRU
12) Kenyon

13) North Park
14) Johns Hopkins
15) OWU
16) Lynchburg

17) Lycoming
18) Franklin & Marshall
19) Bowdoin
20) Stevens

21) Washington & Lee
22) Capital
23) SLU
24) Mary Washington
25) Ramapo/GAC/Oglethorpe (TIE)

RV -- (in order) -- Haverford, Amherst, Salisbury, Eastern, Carleton, St. Norbert, John Carroll, Middlebury, CMU, Salve Regina, RUC, Willamette, Texas-Dallas

+K Paul. I would switch Montclair with Chicago though  :)
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 22, 2018, 01:26:11 PM
Shooter, even with 2 straight losses? I figured 1 loss deserved a drop to #5 and the second at least down to #8.

And I forgot to slot Claremont-Mudd-Scripps and Redlands somewhere in the RV category.  I'm sure I missed a couple of other notables as well.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 22, 2018, 01:37:54 PM
Falconer, I must confess that even as a Great Lakes person I haven't seen Gordon play much.  For whatever reason, Capital and Kenyon have not played each other in a few years.  I assume you are correct that he is somewhat of a poacher but I do not know for sure.  Domino1195, a Capital guy and Great Lakes aficionado, said he positions himself well and also has some nice moves/runs without being especially flashy.

I doubt we'll see Capital facing Messiah in the Final Four, but who knows.  I personally would guess that Gordon gets to 28-29 goals while West counting what likely will be a very deep NCAA run will get to 35/35+.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 22, 2018, 02:02:42 PM
And speaking of Chicago, are fans/followers of the Maroons concerned about the two losses, or are the losses viewed as helpful in terms of getting the squad focused down the stretch?  They clearly are already in the tournament, even if they should falter further in the last three UAA tilts.

I mentioned a week or two ago that I thought they might be going too conservative in some games, absorbing too much pressure with a one goal lead against, iirc, Calvin and more recently CMU.

I would not fancy their chances in a rematch with Calvin, as I think the Calvin coach after two looks at Chicago would have a pretty solid plan for Lopez and Koh.  Also would not favor Chicago at this point versus Messiah or Tufts.  And I would guess North Park wouldn't mind another crack, although North Park and Chicago might well end up in different sectionals.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on October 22, 2018, 05:44:45 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 22, 2018, 10:26:50 AMThis may be in one of Shirk's articles about the process, but has SoS always played such a big role in rankings, like 15-20 years ago, or just over the past 8-10 years?

The current Strength-of-Schedule formula (SOS = 2/3 OWP + 1/3 OOWP) was instituted in 2007.  If you want to be more precise, you can break the SOS era into two periods: from 2007 to 2015, the OWP and OOWP was based on average winning percentages, and from 2015 to present based on cumulative winning percentages.

Previously, from 2003 to 2006, a Quality-of-Wins Index was used.  That was not a strength of schedule calculation.  It was just trying to give different value to wins and losses based on the "quality" of the opponent.  Here's how it worked

QuoteQuality-of-Wins-Index (only contests versus regional competition)

Win on the road versus a team at or above .667  15 points
Win at home versus a team at or above .667  14 points
Win on the road versus a team at or above .500, but below .667  13 points
Win at home versus a team at or above .500, but below .667  12 points
Win on the road versus a team at or above .333, but below .500  11 points
Win at home versus a team at or above .333, but below .500  10 points
Win on the road versus a team below .333    9 points
Win at home versus a team below .333    8 points
Loss on the road versus a team at or above .667    7 points
Loss at home versus a team at or above .667    6 points
Loss on the road versus a team at or above .500, but below .667    5 points
Loss at home versus a team at or above .500, but below .667    4 points
Loss on the road versus a team at or above .333, but below .500    3 points
Loss at home versus a team at or above .333, but below .500    2 points
Loss on the road versus a team below .333    1 point
Loss at home versus a team below .333    0 points

• Points for tied contests are calculated by taking the points which would have been
awarded with a win, adding the points which would have been awarded with a loss and
dividing by two.
• The Quality-of-Wins-Index is calculated by adding the total number of points and
dividing by the number of games.
• A neutral game is defined as being in neither team's locale and, as such, is awarded
as if it were an away game.
• The Quality-of-Wins-Index is calculated for ratings at the time of the ranking calls and
using final results for selection purposes.

Priro to 2003, the primary criteria included this:
Quote• Strength of schedule as demonstrated by in-region oppo-
nents' winning percentage;
with no provided formaula or calculation.

The regional rankings began in 2003 together with the introduction of the Quality-of-Win Index.  In theory, doing regional rankings does not change at-large selections, but rather only makes them more predictable (eliminates surprises).  They only started releasing the data sheets in 2009, so prior to that it was much harder to get any feel for which criteria seemed to carry more weight without readily accessible data to review and compare.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on October 22, 2018, 06:05:37 PM
Quote from: WUPHF on October 22, 2018, 01:01:35 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 22, 2018, 12:01:49 PM
Getting back to the Bears, it actually looks wide open for Wash U to get ranked and then rapidly climb the Central Region ladder if the Bears can finish with a flourish. They take their annual East Coast road trip this weekend, playing at Brandeis on Friday and at NYU on Sunday; [...]

After traveling for the last month, Washington University will play their final three games in the Francis Olympic Stadium.

... named for that great civic father of St. Louis, the legendary Francis Olympic. :D

(My bad on misreading the Bears' schedule.)
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: WUPHF on October 22, 2018, 06:27:38 PM
Absolutely not a problem.

By the way, they have changed the name to Francis Olympic Stadium.

I prefer Francis Field.

There is way too much history that does not involve the Olympics.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 22, 2018, 07:31:21 PM
I forgot the quality of Wins Index but after lookin at it I might like to go back to it....
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 22, 2018, 11:49:01 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 22, 2018, 07:31:21 PM
I forgot the quality of Wins Index but after lookin at it I might like to go back to it....

That system, which wasn't trying to gauge how tough one's schedule was but rather provide a score for a team's results, would give Messiah 10 points for tying Top 15 Cortland St. (14-1-2) at home and 10 points for beating Albright (4-9-2) at home.  And defeating still-winless Hartwick (0-11-0) is worth more (8 points) than a potential overtime loss to Top 25 Lycoming in the conference final (6 points).  That type of scoring is very out of balance with how I would weigh those results and what they said to me about Messiah's quality.  The system highly rewards wins against tough opposition, but ties and losses against tough opponents are undervalued in comparison to wins against poor to pathetic adversaries.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 23, 2018, 11:30:54 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 22, 2018, 11:49:01 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 22, 2018, 07:31:21 PM
I forgot the quality of Wins Index but after lookin at it I might like to go back to it....

That system, which wasn't trying to gauge how tough one's schedule was but rather provide a score for a team's results, would give Messiah 10 points for tying Top 15 Cortland St. (14-1-2) at home and 10 points for beating Albright (4-9-2) at home.  And defeating still-winless Hartwick (0-11-0) is worth more (8 points) than a potential overtime loss to Top 25 Lycoming in the conference final (6 points).  That type of scoring is very out of balance with how I would weigh those results and what they said to me about Messiah's quality.  The system highly rewards wins against tough opposition, but ties and losses against tough opponents are undervalued in comparison to wins against poor to pathetic adversaries.


Easy easy fix....Just re-work quality of Wins Index Point totals....including having negative point totals...Loss to a team above .667 could be bumped up especially on the Road and loss to a team below .333 at Home could be -4. The one thing I do not like is bunching up neutral field Wins/Losses to basically a Road game of which it is not. My point being this system could be re-worked with the point totals rather easily. Now maybe they could keep SOS but also add this Quality of Win Index as another primary criteria. So it would just give the committee more data to look at. I would be willing to guess we could see some teams with high SOS and a rather average WIP. Just a thought.....
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 23, 2018, 12:25:48 PM
QOWI was instituted to get rid of the "old boys network" in a lot of sports. The problems with it ... were NUMEROUS. We are in such a better place now that it is gone, however it allowed everyone to transition to information and data about teams rather than "my man so-and-so has a damn good team, they should be in the tournament" system.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on October 23, 2018, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 22, 2018, 10:26:50 AMI am curious about Wash U....not ranked last week, but this week will 6-6-1, with a SoS over .650, and I think a RvR of 2-3-1.  Does that get them ranked?  And is it conceivable that Wash U could get a bid if they end up 7-8-1 or 7-7-2 with a SoS north of .670 and RvR of something like 3-4-2/3-3-3?  Has a team ever gotten a Pool C with a record or .500 or below?

I think the lowest winning percentages of teams receiving Pool C at-large berths in recent times (last 8 years) are Emory (10-6-2 / .611) in 2012, Rochester (9-5-3 / .618) in 2014 and Capital (12-7-2 / .619) in 2017.  In a relatively quick scan of the tournament brackets, I couldn't find any winning pcts. lower than that in the 2005 to 2010 time frame.  And prior to 2005, the tournament field size was much smaller and there were only 4 or 5 Pool C at-large berths, so no one was getting in with winning percentages that low.  So, not only has no one received a Pool C at-large berth with a .500 winning pct. or lower, it appears that no team with a winning pct. .600 or lower has either.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 23, 2018, 04:03:10 PM
Well if Emory got in at 10-6-2 in 2012 than Brandeis fan have a glimmer of hope as they sit 7-6-2 with 3 games left and I am sure relatively comparable SOS.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 23, 2018, 04:07:12 PM
Quote from: Christan Shirk on October 23, 2018, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 22, 2018, 10:26:50 AMI am curious about Wash U....not ranked last week, but this week will 6-6-1, with a SoS over .650, and I think a RvR of 2-3-1.  Does that get them ranked?  And is it conceivable that Wash U could get a bid if they end up 7-8-1 or 7-7-2 with a SoS north of .670 and RvR of something like 3-4-2/3-3-3?  Has a team ever gotten a Pool C with a record or .500 or below?

I think the lowest winning percentages of teams receiving Pool C at-large berths in recent times (last 8 years) are Emory (10-6-2 / .611) in 2012, Rochester (9-5-3 / .618) in 2014 and Capital (12-7-2 / .619) in 2017.  In a relatively quick scan of the tournament brackets, I couldn't find any winning pcts. lower than that in the 2005 to 2010 time frame.  And prior to 2005, the tournament field size was much smaller and there were only 4 or 5 Pool C at-large berths, so no one was getting in with winning percentages that low.  So, not only has no one received a Pool C at-large berth with a .500 winning pct. or lower, it appears that no team with a winning pct. .600 or lower has either.

I think Wheaton (MA) 2 years ago might be another example....a record just like or very similar to Capital.  The different variable might be a SoS much higher than those cited, like in the .670+ range when all is said and done.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on October 24, 2018, 12:20:09 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 23, 2018, 04:07:12 PM
Quote from: Christan Shirk on October 23, 2018, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 22, 2018, 10:26:50 AMI am curious about Wash U....not ranked last week, but this week will 6-6-1, with a SoS over .650, and I think a RvR of 2-3-1.  Does that get them ranked?  And is it conceivable that Wash U could get a bid if they end up 7-8-1 or 7-7-2 with a SoS north of .670 and RvR of something like 3-4-2/3-3-3?  Has a team ever gotten a Pool C with a record or .500 or below?

I think the lowest winning percentages of teams receiving Pool C at-large berths in recent times (last 8 years) are Emory (10-6-2 / .611) in 2012, Rochester (9-5-3 / .618) in 2014 and Capital (12-7-2 / .619) in 2017.  In a relatively quick scan of the tournament brackets, I couldn't find any winning pcts. lower than that in the 2005 to 2010 time frame.  And prior to 2005, the tournament field size was much smaller and there were only 4 or 5 Pool C at-large berths, so no one was getting in with winning percentages that low.  So, not only has no one received a Pool C at-large berth with a .500 winning pct. or lower, it appears that no team with a winning pct. .600 or lower has either.

I think Wheaton (MA) 2 years ago might be another example....a record just like or very similar to Capital.  The different variable might be a SoS much higher than those cited, like in the .670+ range when all is said and done.
The last time Wheaton (Mass.) received an at-large berth (and I think their only at-large berth in the last 10 years) was 2014 when they had a 16-3-2 record or .810 win pct.  So maybe you are thinking of some other team.

And to clarify, I cited the winning percentages, not SOS values, in my previous post because you were asking if a team with a .500 or lower win pct. ever got selected for a Pool C at-large berth.

Certainly, WashU and Brandeis will have much higher SOS than the three teams I cited who had SOS's around .600, .630 and .610 respectively.

I personally wouldn't imagine that the committee would go for a near-.500 win pct. just because the SOS is around .670 instead of something closer to .600.

Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 24, 2018, 09:31:56 AM
Quote from: Christan Shirk on October 24, 2018, 12:20:09 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 23, 2018, 04:07:12 PM
Quote from: Christan Shirk on October 23, 2018, 04:00:30 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 22, 2018, 10:26:50 AMI am curious about Wash U....not ranked last week, but this week will 6-6-1, with a SoS over .650, and I think a RvR of 2-3-1.  Does that get them ranked?  And is it conceivable that Wash U could get a bid if they end up 7-8-1 or 7-7-2 with a SoS north of .670 and RvR of something like 3-4-2/3-3-3?  Has a team ever gotten a Pool C with a record or .500 or below?

I think the lowest winning percentages of teams receiving Pool C at-large berths in recent times (last 8 years) are Emory (10-6-2 / .611) in 2012, Rochester (9-5-3 / .618) in 2014 and Capital (12-7-2 / .619) in 2017.  In a relatively quick scan of the tournament brackets, I couldn't find any winning pcts. lower than that in the 2005 to 2010 time frame.  And prior to 2005, the tournament field size was much smaller and there were only 4 or 5 Pool C at-large berths, so no one was getting in with winning percentages that low.  So, not only has no one received a Pool C at-large berth with a .500 winning pct. or lower, it appears that no team with a winning pct. .600 or lower has either.

I think Wheaton (MA) 2 years ago might be another example....a record just like or very similar to Capital.  The different variable might be a SoS much higher than those cited, like in the .670+ range when all is said and done.
The last time Wheaton (Mass.) received an at-large berth (and I think their only at-large berth in the last 10 years) was 2014 when they had a 16-3-2 record or .810 win pct.  So maybe you are thinking of some other team.

And to clarify, I cited the winning percentages, not SOS values, in my previous post because you were asking if a team with a .500 or lower win pct. ever got selected for a Pool C at-large berth.

Certainly, WashU and Brandeis will have much higher SOS than the three teams I cited who had SOS's around .600, .630 and .610 respectively.

I personally wouldn't imagine that the committee would go for a near-.500 win pct. just because the SOS is around .670 instead of something closer to .600.

You were right, and I figured out why I was thinking of Wheaton (MA).  In 2016 we talked about Wheaton quite a bit and Ryan predicted Wheaton to get a bid but they did not...

From Ryan's "what I missed" column....

"(1) New England: Wheaton (Mass.), Williams, Middlebury. This miss was part me, part NCAA-selection process. I predicted—correctly—that Wheaton (Mass.) would jump in the final New England rankings. They did, all the way from 12th up to 6th. What I did not predict, however, is that the committee would not give Wheaton an at-large bid. I thought four ranked wins and a very high strength-of-schedule (SOS) would be enough, but it wasn't. I'd guess that Wheaton's seven losses and nine blemishes (and the resulting low winning percentage) were too much to overcome. And while the record-versus-ranked was great, it also means Wheaton lost five games to unranked teams. Considering only one Pool C team had more than five losses total, that poor record may have been the difference.

Then comes the NCAA selection process. The committee only considers the top team in each region as "on the board" for discussion. In other words, the 5th-ranked team in a region is not even considered for a Pool C bid until the 4th-ranked team has one. So while Williams and Middlebury had profiles that matched up favorably with many Pool C teams that got in—they have similar profiles to OWU, Washington U., etc.—they never even had a chance."

So otherwise sounds like you are saying there likely is a point of diminishing value.  That higher and higher SoS's only are determinative up to a certain level of won-lost record, presuming, for the sake of argument, a decent to good RvR of 3-3-1, 3-4-2, etc., such that, if a team is 7-7-1 and even had a SoS of .700+ they wouldn't get in.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 24, 2018, 10:39:37 AM
Game alert:  don't forget Redlands @ Claremont-Mudd-Scripps in a conference and West region showdown at 10:00 EST.

NESCAC fans will be dialed into Colby @ Bates at 8:00 EST, so that will make for a nice "sea to shining sea" doubleheader.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: stancoville on October 24, 2018, 11:43:20 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 22, 2018, 02:02:42 PM
And speaking of Chicago, are fans/followers of the Maroons concerned about the two losses, or are the losses viewed as helpful in terms of getting the squad focused down the stretch?  They clearly are already in the tournament, even if they should falter further in the last three UAA tilts.

I mentioned a week or two ago that I thought they might be going too conservative in some games, absorbing too much pressure with a one goal lead against, iirc, Calvin and more recently CMU.

I would not fancy their chances in a rematch with Calvin, as I think the Calvin coach after two looks at Chicago would have a pretty solid plan for Lopez and Koh.  Also would not favor Chicago at this point versus Messiah or Tufts.  And I would guess North Park wouldn't mind another crack, although North Park and Chicago might well end up in different sectionals.

I am a UChicago alumnus and although not close to the team, I would guess that they are not at all worried. It is tough to have 3 big UAA games left, but they are in the tourney and have to be confident in their ability to win big games. They have a lot of experience and coach Babst is a great coach who keeps them relaxed and confident.

All of the games you listed would be great matchups and tough to pick a 'favorite' in any of them, especially when they're happening in the tournament. I think just about any team will struggle to shut down all of Chicago's offensive options (much more than Koh + Lopez), and having a couple games of lacking a finishing touch is to be expected. Better they come now than in a month!

I'm looking forward to seeing how this team comes down the stretch as I know they all feel like they should have won a national title last year and a lot of those guys are back.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 24, 2018, 03:09:01 PM
Gonna be an interesting week.....St Joe's at 12....still no Lynchburg and W&L drops out....every UAA ranked and fairly high except for Wash U.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on October 24, 2018, 03:47:43 PM
NEW ENGLAND REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 24, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Tufts
12-0-2
0.599
5-0-2
12-0-2
2
2.
Connecticut College
11-1-2
0.596
4-0-2
11-1-2
1
3.
Babson
9-2-4
0.592
2-2-1
9-2-4
8
4.
Amherst
9-3-1
0.609
1-3-1
9-3-1
4
5.
Middlebury
9-2-3
0.568
2-1-1
9-2-3
7
6.
Bowdoin
9-3-2
0.564
2-2-2
9-3-2
--
7.
Williams
8-4-2
0.573
3-2-0
8-4-2
10
8.
Brandeis
7-5-2
0.652
4-3-1
7-5-2
9
9.
Endicott
9-5-2
0.608
1-4-0
9-5-2
5
10.
Roger Williams
14-3-0
0.555
0-1-0
14-3-0
3
11.
Springfield
11-3-1
0.567
0-2-0
11-3-1
6
12.
St. Joseph's (Maine)
16-0-0
0.495
1-0-0
16-0-0
11


EAST REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 24, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Rochester
11-1-1
0.583
3-1-0
11-1-1
1
2.
Cortland State
14-1-2
0.570
3-1-2
14-1-2
2
3.
St. Lawrence
10-2-2
0.556
2-1-1
10-2-2
4
4.
New York University
11-3-0
0.549
4-3-0
11-3-0
3
5.
Vassar
9-4-0
0.609
1-2-0
9-4-0
6
6.
New Paltz State
11-5-1
0.577
2-2-0
11-5-1
7
7.
Oneonta State
9-4-4
0.591
1-4-1
9-4-4
5
8.
Stevens
14-2-1
0.524
3-2-0
14-2-1
--


MID-ATLANTIC REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 24, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Messiah
14-0-2
0.592
5-0-2
14-0-2
1
2.
Franklin and Marshall
12-2-2
0.611
5-2-1
12-2-2
4
3.
Johns Hopkins
12-3-1
0.594
3-3-1
12-3-1
2
4.
Eastern
13-2-1
0.550
3-0-1
13-2-1
3
5.
Haverford
9-4-0
0.597
3-2-0
9-4-0
6
6.
Dickinson
10-4-2
0.584
2-3-1
10-4-2
5
7.
Lebanon Valley
9-4-1
0.564
0-3-1
9-4-1
8
8.
Lycoming
13-2-1
0.531
0-2-0
13-2-1
9
9.
Swarthmore
9-6-1
0.589
1-3-1
9-6-1
10
10.
Gettysburg
7-6-1
0.589
2-5-0
7-6-1
7


SOUTH ATLANTIC REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 24, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Montclair State
14-1-2
0.555
2-1-1
14-1-2
1
2.
Mary Washington
11-1-3
0.587
1-1-1
11-1-3
2
3.
Oglethorpe
10-2-0
0.564
1-2-0
11-2-0
--
4.
Rowan
11-5-0
0.617
2-3-0
11-5-0
4
5.
Emory
9-5-1
0.625
3-3-0
9-5-1
5
6.
Rutgers-Camden
12-4-2
0.597
1-3-0
12-4-2
3
7.
St. Mary's (Md.)
10-2-3
0.555
2-2-0
11-2-3
--
8.
William Paterson
11-5-1
0.570
3-4-0
11-5-1
--
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on October 24, 2018, 03:50:50 PM
GREAT LAKES REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 24, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Case Western Reserve
11-2-1
0.600
4-2-1
11-2-1
1
2.
Kenyon
12-1-2
0.592
1-1-2
12-1-2
2
3.
Carnegie Mellon
9-3-2
0.633
2-2-2
9-3-2
5
4.
Capital
12-3-0
0.572
2-3-0
12-3-0
3
5.
John Carroll
10-4-1
0.604
3-3-1
10-4-1
6
6.
Ohio Wesleyan
11-2-2
0.556
1-2-1
11-2-2
4
7.
Mount Union
10-3-1
0.524
2-1-0
10-3-1
7
8.
Ohio Northern
10-5-1
0.550
1-4-0
10-5-1
8


CENTRAL REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 24, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Chicago
12-2-1
0.647
8-1-1
12-2-1
1
2.
Calvin
13-1-0
0.572
4-1-0
14-1-0
2
3.
Hope
10-2-1
0.561
2-1-0
12-2-1
3
4.
Millikin
8-5-1
0.549
2-2-0
8-5-1
4
5.
North Park
13-2-0
0.534
1-2-0
13-2-0
6
6.
Carthage
8-7-1
0.578
2-4-1
9-7-1
--
7.
Wheaton (Ill.)
9-5-1
0.537
3-2-0
9-5-1
--


NORTH REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 24, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Gustavus Adolphus
10-1-1
0.566
2-1-1
12-1-1
1
2.
Luther
13-3-1
0.563
3-1-0
13-3-1
2
3.
UW-Platteville
11-1-2
0.551
1-0-0
11-1-2
3
4.
St. Thomas
12-3-1
0.583
1-3-1
12-3-1
4
5.
Augsburg
9-2-2
0.549
1-1-1
10-2-2
6
6.
Carleton
11-1-2
0.523
2-1-2
12-1-2
5
7.
St. Norbert
14-0-1
0.527
1-0-0
14-0-1
--


WEST REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 24, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Trinity (Texas)
12-1-1
0.510
1-0-1
13-1-1
3
2.
Redlands
12-2-0
0.526
0-1-0
12-3-0
1
3.
Mary Hardin-Baylor
10-3-1
0.547
0-1-0
10-3-1
2
4.
Claremont-Mudd-Scripps
12-2-0
0.503
2-0-0
13-2-0
5
5.
Texas-Dallas
10-1-2
0.505
1-0-0
10-1-2
6
6.
University of Dallas
7-5-0
0.524
2-2-0
8-5-0
--
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 25, 2018, 12:52:22 PM
Any predictions on # of bids for UAA?  Every single school is still "alive" IMO heading into the final and critical 3 game UAA stretch.  All are ranked except Wash U, and given how the Central rankings look one could easily see Wash U being ranked by the end.  Let's assume Chicago gets the AQ...Rochester and CWRU look like locks even on the chance that they lose all 3 remaining games.  CMU may need a win and at least a draw.  One win for NYU might do it.  Brandeis probably needs at least 2 wins and a draw.  Wash U probably needs 2 wins.  Emory perhaps can go 0-3 in the last 3 and still stay at #4 or #5 in South Atlantic, but for real maybe a win and a draw would work for the Eagles.  I'm going to say AQ plus five Pool Cs, but I don't think six Pool Cs would be shocking.

For the NESCAC, Tufts and Conn Coll are locks.  Amherst and Bowdoin probably both need a win, although maybe Amherst would survive as they gain a ranked win with Brandeis (presuming Brandeis doesn't fall out) but would pick up another ranked loss if lose to Bowdoin.  I'm not sure Midd is in without another win and no doubt Williams almost certainly needs at least one more win.  Hamilton also might have a pulse in they can get to NESCAC final (which would not shock me either).  Assuming Babson can get the NEWMAC AQ, and given the relative weakness in the region and the St. Joe's ranking situation, I'm going to guess that NESCAC gets the AQ plus four Pool Cs.  Three Pool Cs seems like the smarter choice, and of course you can lose out to other regions, but I just don't see who is going knock the NESCACs out of there rankings spots in New England besides Babson.

Btw, Claremont-Mudd-Scripps took the nightcap last night 1-0 over Redlands.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 25, 2018, 01:28:44 PM
The UAA is actually interesting right now because Chicago is not a lock to win the title and are in a bit of a funk the past week or so. Brandeis is 7-6-2 and I think they need to go 10-6-2 and Win all 3. However, if they do win all 3 they will probably Win the UAA title. Brandeis just has to many question marks on the field right now and I do not expect them to Win these last 3 UAA Road games. I think Emory and CMU are teetering on the bubble right now. CMU has a solid resume with a solid SOS so they should be ok with a 1-1-1 finish BUT Emory IMO has a ton of work to do especially if the NJAC gets turned upside down in the NJAC Tourney because a team like Ramapo should and could get ranked with a couple Wins and their SOS will certainly rise not to mention Wins v Ranked. Some of these NJAC teams could pass Emory in the rankings especially if Emory goes 1-2-0. I think Emory needs to go 3-0-0. Case, Chicago and UR are locks even with total collapses to finish the year. NYU still has work because if they were to go 0-2-1 to finish or 0-3-0 I do not see how they get in.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 25, 2018, 01:39:07 PM
Right, but NYU is sitting at #4 in the East rankings and with even one more win would get to 5 ranked wins (assuming Rowan and New Paltz stay ranked and the others).  Don't know if they can jump SLU but if SLU and Cortland ins their AQs and/or UR they might have a chance with one win or one win and a draw.  IMO Brandeis might get in with 2-0-1 depending on how the NESCAC tourney shakes out.  And if Emory wins two games they are almost certain to get in.  CMU is very high in rankings in Great Lakes and have a good shot as long as they don't go 0-3.  The UAA will be fascinating to follow this weekend and next.

A little tangential, but why is Hamilton in New England instead of East?  Is UAA the only conference with teams slotted to different regions?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on October 25, 2018, 01:48:37 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 25, 2018, 01:39:07 PM
A little tangential, but why is Hamilton in New England instead of East?  Is UAA the only conference with teams slotted to different regions?

You basically answered your own question. Earlier in this decade, D3 decided to consolidate all of its leagues within one region apiece, with the obvious exception of the UAA. I think that it was an all-sports decision (Dave would know for sure), because I saw it happen in other sports simultaneously.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 25, 2018, 02:04:18 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 25, 2018, 01:48:37 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 25, 2018, 01:39:07 PM
A little tangential, but why is Hamilton in New England instead of East?  Is UAA the only conference with teams slotted to different regions?

You basically answered your own question. Earlier in this decade, D3 decided to consolidate all of its leagues within one region apiece, with the obvious exception of the UAA. I think that it was an all-sports decision (Dave would know for sure), because I saw it happen in other sports simultaneously.

So it was in that context that Centre moved from Great Lakes to South Atlantic, I presume.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 25, 2018, 02:20:11 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 25, 2018, 01:39:07 PM
Right, but NYU is sitting at #4 in the East rankings and with even one more win would get to 5 ranked wins (assuming Rowan and New Paltz stay ranked and the others).  Don't know if they can jump SLU but if SLU and Cortland ins their AQs and/or UR they might have a chance with one win or one win and a draw.  IMO Brandeis might get in with 2-0-1 depending on how the NESCAC tourney shakes out.  And if Emory wins two games they are almost certain to get in.  CMU is very high in rankings in Great Lakes and have a good shot as long as they don't go 0-3.  The UAA will be fascinating to follow this weekend and next.

A little tangential, but why is Hamilton in New England instead of East?  Is UAA the only conference with teams slotted to different regions?


Yes...but if NYU finishes 0-2-1 or 0-3-0 you are correct their SOS will be very high BUT their Record v Ranked will now go to say 4-6-0 or 4-5-1 and actually would look alot like the team you mentioned yesterday in another conversation Wheaton MA in 2016. Winning % and blemishes very close to Wheaton in 2016 but SOS probably a bit higher and a ton of ranked Wins but also a ton of ranked losses. IDK...If I were NYU I would try to go 2-1-0 or 2-0-1 and they will be a lock and probably a lock to host a 1st Round Pod....
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on October 25, 2018, 02:24:37 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 25, 2018, 02:04:18 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 25, 2018, 01:48:37 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 25, 2018, 01:39:07 PM
A little tangential, but why is Hamilton in New England instead of East?  Is UAA the only conference with teams slotted to different regions?

You basically answered your own question. Earlier in this decade, D3 decided to consolidate all of its leagues within one region apiece, with the obvious exception of the UAA. I think that it was an all-sports decision (Dave would know for sure), because I saw it happen in other sports simultaneously.

So it was in that context that Centre moved from Great Lakes to South Atlantic, I presume.

Yep.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on October 25, 2018, 02:40:00 PM
Does anyone know how the tiebreaker to determine the AQ for the UAA works?  If anyone can trip up Chicago, there's a good chance it will come into play.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on October 25, 2018, 02:50:17 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on October 25, 2018, 02:40:00 PM
Does anyone know how the tiebreaker to determine the AQ for the UAA works?  If anyone can trip up Chicago, there's a good chance it will come into play.

The first tiebreaker I believe is H2H results against the other champion(s). Six years ago there was a four-way tie between Brandeis, CMU, Emory, and WashU, all teams were 4-2-1. Brandeis beat both Emory and WashU but lost at home to CMU and I believe CMU beat both of those teams as well. So, CMU got the AQ and the other 3 (plus Rochester) got Pool Cs.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on October 25, 2018, 03:03:46 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on October 25, 2018, 02:50:17 PM
Quote from: Buck O. on October 25, 2018, 02:40:00 PM
Does anyone know how the tiebreaker to determine the AQ for the UAA works?  If anyone can trip up Chicago, there's a good chance it will come into play.

The first tiebreaker I believe is H2H results against the other champion(s). Six years ago there was a four-way tie between Brandeis, CMU, Emory, and WashU, all teams were 4-2-1. Brandeis beat both Emory and WashU but lost at home to CMU and I believe CMU beat both of those teams as well. So, CMU got the AQ and the other 3 (plus Rochester) got Pool Cs.

It won't matter for most of the UAA teams, because if they finish well enough to tie for the UAA title,  a Pool C slot is a lock.  But it may matter for WashU and Deis.

What about the second tiebreaker?  E.g., if WashU and Rochester were each to win out, they'd be tied atop the UAA, and the H2H result was also a tie.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 25, 2018, 03:19:15 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 25, 2018, 01:48:37 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 25, 2018, 01:39:07 PM
A little tangential, but why is Hamilton in New England instead of East?  Is UAA the only conference with teams slotted to different regions?

You basically answered your own question. Earlier in this decade, D3 decided to consolidate all of its leagues within one region apiece, with the obvious exception of the UAA. I think that it was an all-sports decision (Dave would know for sure), because I saw it happen in other sports simultaneously.

Yes ... ALL sports for the UAA in multiple regions.

They and the GSAC was given the exception due to the make-up of their conferences across the country (at the time GSAC had a team in Michigan, California, and elsewhere). GSAC dissolved two years later, I believe.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: WUPHF on October 25, 2018, 03:32:39 PM
UAA Tiebreaker Rules
SECTION 2. Determination of Association Champion

Association teams shall participate in round-robin play, receiving three (3) points for a win, one
(1) point for a tie, and zero (0) points for a loss. The champion shall be the team with the highest
point total at the completion of the round-robin. If tied, co-champions shall be declared.
In the event of a tie for the Association championship, the representative accepting an automatic
bid to the NCAA championship on behalf of the UAA, shall be determined according to the
following criteria (in order):
1) Head-to-head competition between the co-champions
2) Total goal differential up to a maximum of three goals per individual match between the
co-champions
3) Points (Win-3, Tie-1, Loss-0) earned in UAA road games (This step shall only be used if the
co-champions have played the same number of UAA road games, otherwise this step
shall be skipped.)
4) Points (Win-3, Tie-1, Loss-0) earned against succeeding teams in the UAA standings
5) Most wins
6) Fewest goals against
7) Most goals scored (counting up to 3 goals per game)
8) If this process fails to determine a representative, the representative to NCAA postseason competition shall be determined by a coin flip administered by the Executive Director

Resolution of Multiple Ties: In case of ties among three or more teams, the above criteria shall be applied until a representative is determined directly or until one or more teams are eliminated. In the latter case, once one or more teams are eliminated, the process shall be repeated from the
beginning with the criteria applied in order to the remaining tied teams until a representative is determined directly or an additional team(s) is eliminated. If the resolution of a tie between three or more teams proceeds to a coin flip, the coin flip shall be used to eliminate one team, and the process shall be repeated from the beginning with the criteria applied in order to the remaining teams. If the entire round robin schedule cannot be completed and the designated tie-breaking criteria cannot be equitably applied, a committee of all head coaches shall be convened to determine the Association champion(s) and the automatic bid recipient. Any coach whose team may be directly affected by this decision shall be replaced by the athletic director of that institution who shall serve as a non-voting member of the committee.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 25, 2018, 04:01:32 PM
I like those tiebreakers compared to Nescac...Big fan of the Road record tiebreaker if both teams played the same road games. Not sure about goal differential up to only 3 Goals...Why limit it? Also, Most Goals scored should be ahead of Least Goals allowed...The sport should be promoting goals not the other way around
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 1970s NESCAC Player on October 25, 2018, 04:06:05 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 25, 2018, 04:01:32 PM
I like those tiebreakers compared to Nescac...Big fan of the Road record tiebreaker if both teams played the same road games. Not sure about goal differential up to only 3 Goals...Why limit it? Also, Most Goals scored should be ahead of Least Goals allowed...The sport should be promoting goals not the other way around

The rationale behind making least goals allowed the tie breaker (before most goals scored) is that the GD tiebreaker already rewards goals scored, but I agree that if you are going to limit the GD, that rationale is somewhat nullified.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 25, 2018, 04:10:42 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 25, 2018, 03:19:15 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 25, 2018, 01:48:37 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 25, 2018, 01:39:07 PM
A little tangential, but why is Hamilton in New England instead of East?  Is UAA the only conference with teams slotted to different regions?

You basically answered your own question. Earlier in this decade, D3 decided to consolidate all of its leagues within one region apiece, with the obvious exception of the UAA. I think that it was an all-sports decision (Dave would know for sure), because I saw it happen in other sports simultaneously.

Yes ... ALL sports for the UAA in multiple regions.

They and the GSAC was given the exception due to the make-up of their conferences across the country (at the time GSAC had a team in Michigan, California, and elsewhere). GSAC dissolved two years later, I believe.

For a long time the NEAC was split between the Northeast (now East) and Mid-Atlantic regions, but a few years back they put them all in the Mid-Atlantic.  Numbers-wise it made sense to have them split so the two regions had more similar total number of teams.  Without looking it up, I think the change happened when they started adding members outside Pennsylvania and New York (Gallaudet in DC and St. Elizabeth in New Jersey--both geographically part of the South Atlantic), meaning either dividing the conference among three regions or finally bringing them all together into one region.

Also, the old SCAC used to have teams in different regions.  Of course, that was before a chunk broke away to form the SAA and back under the previous regional alignment that had them primarily as part of the Central Region.  The exceptions to the Central Region assignment were DePauw in the Great Lakes, Colorado in the West, and Birmingham Southern in the South (now South Atlantic after merger with part of the old Metro region).

But, yes, unless geography really doesn't allow the teams to be assigned to the same region, they are kept together.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on October 25, 2018, 04:25:43 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on October 25, 2018, 04:01:32 PM
I like those tiebreakers compared to Nescac...Big fan of the Road record tiebreaker if both teams played the same road games. Not sure about goal differential up to only 3 Goals...Why limit it? Also, Most Goals scored should be ahead of Least Goals allowed...The sport should be promoting goals not the other way around

If you don't limit the GD, then the tiebreaker can devolve into the question of who hammered the worst team most mercilessly.  Case in point:  in the 2012 Women's U17 World Cup, Group B consisted of the USA, France, North Korea and Gambia.  The games between the first three of those teams were all draws, which meant that the determination of the two teams to advance out of group play was based on GD vs. Gambia.  North Korea beat Gambia 11-0, and France beat Gambia 10-2, while the US "only" beat them 6-0, so the US was eliminated because they didn't annihilate Gambia thoroughly enough.  Not a good way to determine who should advance.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on October 25, 2018, 04:27:27 PM
Quote from: WUPHF on October 25, 2018, 03:32:39 PM
UAA Tiebreaker Rules
SECTION 2. Determination of Association Champion

Association teams shall participate in round-robin play, receiving three (3) points for a win, one
(1) point for a tie, and zero (0) points for a loss. The champion shall be the team with the highest
point total at the completion of the round-robin. If tied, co-champions shall be declared.
In the event of a tie for the Association championship, the representative accepting an automatic
bid to the NCAA championship on behalf of the UAA, shall be determined according to the
following criteria (in order):
1) Head-to-head competition between the co-champions
2) Total goal differential up to a maximum of three goals per individual match between the
co-champions
3) Points (Win-3, Tie-1, Loss-0) earned in UAA road games (This step shall only be used if the
co-champions have played the same number of UAA road games, otherwise this step
shall be skipped.)
4) Points (Win-3, Tie-1, Loss-0) earned against succeeding teams in the UAA standings
5) Most wins
6) Fewest goals against
7) Most goals scored (counting up to 3 goals per game)
8) If this process fails to determine a representative, the representative to NCAA postseason competition shall be determined by a coin flip administered by the Executive Director

Resolution of Multiple Ties: In case of ties among three or more teams, the above criteria shall be applied until a representative is determined directly or until one or more teams are eliminated. In the latter case, once one or more teams are eliminated, the process shall be repeated from the
beginning with the criteria applied in order to the remaining tied teams until a representative is determined directly or an additional team(s) is eliminated. If the resolution of a tie between three or more teams proceeds to a coin flip, the coin flip shall be used to eliminate one team, and the process shall be repeated from the beginning with the criteria applied in order to the remaining teams. If the entire round robin schedule cannot be completed and the designated tie-breaking criteria cannot be equitably applied, a committee of all head coaches shall be convened to determine the Association champion(s) and the automatic bid recipient. Any coach whose team may be directly affected by this decision shall be replaced by the athletic director of that institution who shall serve as a non-voting member of the committee.

Thanks for finding this, WUPHF.  I note that FIFA Fair Play points don't figure into it.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 25, 2018, 04:28:42 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 25, 2018, 04:10:42 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 25, 2018, 03:19:15 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 25, 2018, 01:48:37 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 25, 2018, 01:39:07 PM
A little tangential, but why is Hamilton in New England instead of East?  Is UAA the only conference with teams slotted to different regions?

You basically answered your own question. Earlier in this decade, D3 decided to consolidate all of its leagues within one region apiece, with the obvious exception of the UAA. I think that it was an all-sports decision (Dave would know for sure), because I saw it happen in other sports simultaneously.

Yes ... ALL sports for the UAA in multiple regions.

They and the GSAC was given the exception due to the make-up of their conferences across the country (at the time GSAC had a team in Michigan, California, and elsewhere). GSAC dissolved two years later, I believe.

For a long time the NEAC was split between the Northeast (now East) and Mid-Atlantic regions, but a few years back they put them all in the Mid-Atlantic.  Numbers-wise it made sense to have them split so the two regions had more similar total number of teams.  Without looking it up, I think the change happened when they started adding members outside Pennsylvania and New York (Goucher in DC and St. Elizabeth in New Jersey--both geographically part of the South Atlantic), meaning either dividing the conference among three regions or finally bringing them all together into one region.

Also, the old SCAC used to have teams in different regions.  Of course, that was before a chunk broke away to form the SAA and back under the previous regional alignment that had them primarily as part of the Central Region.  The exceptions to the Central Region assignment were DePauw in the Great Lakes, Colorado in the West, and Birmingham Southern in the South (now South Atlantic after merger with part of the old Metro region).

But, yes, unless geography really doesn't allow the teams to be assigned to the same region, they are kept together.

Depends on the sport. NEAC is in the East Region in basketball - they had been part of the East and Mid-Atlantic and maybe the Atlantic at one point. But the idea was to get all conferences in one region. AMCC was split between the East and Great Lakes in basketball... now it is all Great Lakes. CAC in MBB was in the Mid-Atlantic, in the Atlantic in WBB ... when the Landmark formed, they left the schools where they were and that resulted in MBB being in the Mid-Atlantic and the women being split into both Mid-Atlantic and Atlantic.

Um... Goucher isn't in DC and was never part of the NEAC. Do you mean Gallaudet?

At one point, also, in basketball the Mid-Atlantic was nearly double the Atlantic. The East was incredibly small. So they also wanted to even things off.

And yes, other sports and conference splits were also a headache... thus why the massive conference and regional alignments were made nearly ten years ago.

FYI - there could be some new changes coming in the next few years, but it is too early to say.

The biggest reason for these changes, btw, was to keep conference opponents from being "at the table" at the same time. We had a famous moment before the changes when Catholic women's basketball was at the table at the same time as, eventually, three of it's conference mates in the other region. The idea is that conferences should be in the same region and not have that happen whenever possible. UAA is an understandable exception. ACAA (new conference) is the only one where things have been a little bit more confusing. I actually have to check to see how Thomas More will be treated in basketball this year.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 25, 2018, 04:38:04 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 25, 2018, 04:28:42 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 25, 2018, 04:10:42 PM
For a long time the NEAC was split between the Northeast (now East) and Mid-Atlantic regions, but a few years back they put them all in the Mid-Atlantic.  Numbers-wise it made sense to have them split so the two regions had more similar total number of teams.  Without looking it up, I think the change happened when they started adding members outside Pennsylvania and New York (Goucher in DC and St. Elizabeth in New Jersey--both geographically part of the South Atlantic), meaning either dividing the conference among three regions or finally bringing them all together into one region.

Also, the old SCAC used to have teams in different regions.  Of course, that was before a chunk broke away to form the SAA and back under the previous regional alignment that had them primarily as part of the Central Region.  The exceptions to the Central Region assignment were DePauw in the Great Lakes, Colorado in the West, and Birmingham Southern in the South (now South Atlantic after merger with part of the old Metro region).

But, yes, unless geography really doesn't allow the teams to be assigned to the same region, they are kept together.

Um... Goucher isn't in DC and was never part of the NEAC. Do you mean Gallaudet?


Yes, both start with "G" and I typed the wrong one.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 25, 2018, 04:43:59 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 25, 2018, 04:28:42 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 25, 2018, 04:10:42 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 25, 2018, 03:19:15 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 25, 2018, 01:48:37 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 25, 2018, 01:39:07 PM
A little tangential, but why is Hamilton in New England instead of East?  Is UAA the only conference with teams slotted to different regions?

You basically answered your own question. Earlier in this decade, D3 decided to consolidate all of its leagues within one region apiece, with the obvious exception of the UAA. I think that it was an all-sports decision (Dave would know for sure), because I saw it happen in other sports simultaneously.

Yes ... ALL sports for the UAA in multiple regions.

They and the GSAC was given the exception due to the make-up of their conferences across the country (at the time GSAC had a team in Michigan, California, and elsewhere). GSAC dissolved two years later, I believe.

For a long time the NEAC was split between the Northeast (now East) and Mid-Atlantic regions, but a few years back they put them all in the Mid-Atlantic.  Numbers-wise it made sense to have them split so the two regions had more similar total number of teams.  Without looking it up, I think the change happened when they started adding members outside Pennsylvania and New York (Goucher in DC and St. Elizabeth in New Jersey--both geographically part of the South Atlantic), meaning either dividing the conference among three regions or finally bringing them all together into one region.

Also, the old SCAC used to have teams in different regions.  Of course, that was before a chunk broke away to form the SAA and back under the previous regional alignment that had them primarily as part of the Central Region.  The exceptions to the Central Region assignment were DePauw in the Great Lakes, Colorado in the West, and Birmingham Southern in the South (now South Atlantic after merger with part of the old Metro region).

But, yes, unless geography really doesn't allow the teams to be assigned to the same region, they are kept together.

Depends on the sport. NEAC is in the East Region in basketball - they had been part of the East and Mid-Atlantic and maybe the Atlantic at one point. But the idea was to get all conferences in one region. AMCC was split between the East and Great Lakes in basketball... now it is all Great Lakes. CAC in MBB was in the Mid-Atlantic, in the Atlantic in WBB ... when the Landmark formed, they left the schools where they were and that resulted in MBB being in the Mid-Atlantic and the women being split into both Mid-Atlantic and Atlantic.

Um... Goucher isn't in DC and was never part of the NEAC. Do you mean Gallaudet?

At one point, also, in basketball the Mid-Atlantic was nearly double the Atlantic. The East was incredibly small. So they also wanted to even things off.

And yes, other sports and conference splits were also a headache... thus why the massive conference and regional alignments were made nearly ten years ago.

FYI - there could be some new changes coming in the next few years, but it is too early to say.

Yes, I was referring to the regional alignments for men's and women's soccer since that's the forum we are in.  But, yes, how many regions there are, what their names are and what geographical area they roughly cover, and conferences'/teams' regional assignments vary from sport to sport.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on October 25, 2018, 09:14:54 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 22, 2018, 01:26:11 PM
Shooter, even with 2 straight losses? I figured 1 loss deserved a drop to #5 and the second at least down to #8.

And I forgot to slot Claremont-Mudd-Scripps and Redlands somewhere in the RV category.  I'm sure I missed a couple of other notables as well.

Oh yeah! 8-1-1 RvR has a lot to do with that  ;)
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 25, 2018, 09:47:12 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 25, 2018, 04:43:59 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 25, 2018, 04:28:42 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 25, 2018, 04:10:42 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 25, 2018, 03:19:15 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 25, 2018, 01:48:37 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 25, 2018, 01:39:07 PM
A little tangential, but why is Hamilton in New England instead of East?  Is UAA the only conference with teams slotted to different regions?

You basically answered your own question. Earlier in this decade, D3 decided to consolidate all of its leagues within one region apiece, with the obvious exception of the UAA. I think that it was an all-sports decision (Dave would know for sure), because I saw it happen in other sports simultaneously.

Yes ... ALL sports for the UAA in multiple regions.

They and the GSAC was given the exception due to the make-up of their conferences across the country (at the time GSAC had a team in Michigan, California, and elsewhere). GSAC dissolved two years later, I believe.

For a long time the NEAC was split between the Northeast (now East) and Mid-Atlantic regions, but a few years back they put them all in the Mid-Atlantic.  Numbers-wise it made sense to have them split so the two regions had more similar total number of teams.  Without looking it up, I think the change happened when they started adding members outside Pennsylvania and New York (Goucher in DC and St. Elizabeth in New Jersey--both geographically part of the South Atlantic), meaning either dividing the conference among three regions or finally bringing them all together into one region.

Also, the old SCAC used to have teams in different regions.  Of course, that was before a chunk broke away to form the SAA and back under the previous regional alignment that had them primarily as part of the Central Region.  The exceptions to the Central Region assignment were DePauw in the Great Lakes, Colorado in the West, and Birmingham Southern in the South (now South Atlantic after merger with part of the old Metro region).

But, yes, unless geography really doesn't allow the teams to be assigned to the same region, they are kept together.

Depends on the sport. NEAC is in the East Region in basketball - they had been part of the East and Mid-Atlantic and maybe the Atlantic at one point. But the idea was to get all conferences in one region. AMCC was split between the East and Great Lakes in basketball... now it is all Great Lakes. CAC in MBB was in the Mid-Atlantic, in the Atlantic in WBB ... when the Landmark formed, they left the schools where they were and that resulted in MBB being in the Mid-Atlantic and the women being split into both Mid-Atlantic and Atlantic.

Um... Goucher isn't in DC and was never part of the NEAC. Do you mean Gallaudet?

At one point, also, in basketball the Mid-Atlantic was nearly double the Atlantic. The East was incredibly small. So they also wanted to even things off.

And yes, other sports and conference splits were also a headache... thus why the massive conference and regional alignments were made nearly ten years ago.

FYI - there could be some new changes coming in the next few years, but it is too early to say.

Yes, I was referring to the regional alignments for men's and women's soccer since that's the forum we are in.  But, yes, how many regions there are, what their names are and what geographical area they roughly cover, and conferences'/teams' regional assignments vary from sport to sport.

Yep... that's why I mentioned the basketball references. I am fully aware there are a lot of different regional alignments ... though, I am also aware they tried to make it more universal (fell a little short, IMHO). I will be interested to see what changes are suggested and implemented the next go around ... though, I know it won't be nearly as major an overhaul.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on October 25, 2018, 11:28:04 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 25, 2018, 04:10:42 PMAlso, the old SCAC used to have teams in different regions.  Of course, that was before a chunk broke away to form the SAA and back under the previous regional alignment that had them primarily as part of the Central Region.  The exceptions to the Central Region assignment were DePauw in the Great Lakes, Colorado in the West, and Birmingham Southern in the South (now South Atlantic after merger with part of the old Metro region).

Wasn't Rose-Hulman in the Great Lakes as well? RHIT was a SCAC member, too.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 27, 2018, 09:50:18 AM
There has been some back and forth and comments about whether coaches understand the process, might be upset with the cmtes, etc relative to Regional Rankings/Pool Cs.......

Adrian Dubois, St Joe's coach IS ON THE NEW ENGLAND cmte!  Serpone from Amherst is the chair as has been mentioned for New England.  In addition to Dubois from St. Joe's, members in New England include Shapiro from Tufts, Margolis from Brandeis, and the WPI coach.

I will say that reading the names on the cmtes can cause a chill, especially when you see names of coaches that you have a hunch really don't like your team's coach and/or are coaches of teams very likely to be in the middle of very close calls with your team.

NEW ENGLAND REGION
Justin Serpone, chair Amherst NESCAC
Jake Beverlin Massachusetts Boston Little East
Adrian Dubois Saint Joseph’s (Maine) Great Northeast
Gabe Margolis Brandeis University
Bettiann Michalik Fitchburg State MASCAC
Bill Maddock Newbury College NECC
Josh Shapiro Tufts NESCAC
Billy Shannon Maine Maritime North Atlantic
KiKi Jacobs Roger Williams Commonwealth Coast
Brian Kelley WPI NEWMAC
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 27, 2018, 09:58:28 AM
MEN'S SOCCER

CENTRAL REGION
Marc Colwell, chair Illinois Institute of Technology Northern Athletics
Sheila Morrigan Michigan Intercol. Michigan Intercol.
Adam Boyer Spalding SLIAC
Nicole Pieart Aurora Northern Athletics
Derek Marie Carroll (Wisconsin) CCIW

EAST REGION
Kevin Brenner, chair Elmira Empire 8
Kyle Dezotell Ithaca Liberty League
Dima Kamenshchik Baruch CUNYAC
Tom Azzara Farmingdale State Skyline
Tracy Blake Alfred Empire 8
Adam Parker SUNY Potsdam SUNYAC

GREAT LAKES REGION
Brandon Bianco, chair Case Western Reserve University
Nathan Whitehurst Pittsburgh-Bradford Allegheny Mountain CC
Brad Heethius Waynesburg Presidents' AC
Chris Keller Wabash North Coast
Matt Vogel Transylvania University Heartland Collegiate
Alan Yost Capital OAC

MID-ATLANTIC REGION
Kenneth Andrews, chair Middle Atlantic Middle Atlantic Conferences
Craig Appleby Johns Hopkins Centennial
Tim Hollenback Neumann Atlantic East
Kyle Keltner Clarks Summit Colonial States
Joe Machado Cobleskill State NEAC
Matthew Pivirotto University of Scranton Landmark
Casey Moore Alvernia MAC Commonwealth
Mark Bassett King's (Pennsylvania) MAC Freedom

NEW ENGLAND REGION
Justin Serpone, chair Amherst NESCAC
Jake Beverlin Massachusetts Boston Little East
Adrian Dubois Saint Joseph's (Maine) Great Northeast
Gabe Margolis Brandeis University
Bettiann Michalik Fitchburg State MASCAC
Bill Maddock Newbury College NECC
Josh Shapiro Tufts NESCAC
Billy Shannon Maine Maritime North Atlantic
KiKi Jacobs Roger Williams Commonwealth Coast
Brian Kelley WPI NEWMAC

NORTH REGION
Joe Mooney, chair Wisconsin-Superior Upper Midwest
Enzo Fuschino Wisconsin-Platteville Independent
Sara Eisenhauer Upper Midwest Upper Midwest
Brad Johnson Dubuque American Rivers
Nate Grosse Cornell College Midwest
Jon Lowery St. Thomas (Minnesota) Minnesota Intercol.

SOUTH ATLANTIC REGION
Dan Gilmore, chair Rowan NJAC
Evan Scheffey York (Pennsylvania) CAC
Ryan Pflugrad Roanoke Old Dominion
Todd Tumelty Montclair State NJAC
Richard Vardy Berry SAA
Jimmy Stephens Piedmont USA South

WEST REGION
David Hoffmann, chair Dallas Southern Collegiate
Dan Heger Hardin-Simmons American Southwest
Timothy Demant Whitworth Northwest
Matt Edwards Claremont-Mudd-Scripps SCIAC
Scott Palguta Colorado College Southern Collegiate
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 27, 2018, 10:33:07 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 27, 2018, 09:50:18 AM
There has been some back and forth and comments about whether coaches understand the process, might be upset with the cmtes, etc relative to Regional Rankings/Pool Cs.......

Adrian Dubois, St Joe's coach IS ON THE NEW ENGLAND cmte!  Serpone from Amherst is the chair as has been mentioned for New England.  In addition to Dubois from St. Joe's, members in New England include Shapiro from Tufts, Margolis from Brandeis, and the WPI coach.

I will say that reading the names on the cmtes can cause a chill, especially when you see names of coaches that you have a hunch really don't like your team's coach and/or are coaches of teams very likely to be in the middle of very close calls with your team.

NEW ENGLAND REGION
Justin Serpone, chair Amherst NESCAC
Jake Beverlin Massachusetts Boston Little East
Adrian Dubois Saint Joseph's (Maine) Great Northeast
Gabe Margolis Brandeis University
Bettiann Michalik Fitchburg State MASCAC
Bill Maddock Newbury College NECC
Josh Shapiro Tufts NESCAC
Billy Shannon Maine Maritime North Atlantic
KiKi Jacobs Roger Williams Commonwealth Coast
Brian Kelley WPI NEWMAC


I have been saying that for years...It used to be a mix of Head Coaches/AD"s/Admin etc on these committee's IIRC but now it looks to be all Head Coaches or most. I think we can understand now why RWU continues to be ranked and Salve Regina has not gotten a sniff. On the flip though WPI is not ranked and they have not lost a game in a month and Springfield is so I guess an argument can be made for both sides.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Falconer on October 27, 2018, 10:47:13 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 27, 2018, 09:58:28 AM
MEN'S SOCCER

MID-ATLANTIC REGION
Kenneth Andrews, chair Middle Atlantic Middle Atlantic Conferences
Craig Appleby Johns Hopkins Centennial
Tim Hollenback Neumann Atlantic East
Kyle Keltner Clarks Summit Colonial States
Joe Machado Cobleskill State NEAC
Matthew Pivirotto University of Scranton Landmark
Casey Moore Alvernia MAC Commonwealth
Mark Bassett King's (Pennsylvania) MAC Freedom

Until I saw this information, I didn't realize that Falcon alum Mark Bassett has been coaching for many years, but he has: https://kingscollegeathletics.com/coaches.aspx?rc=904&path=msoc

Messiah never plays King's, and I don't recall ever hearing that Bassett went into coaching. Just one more name to add the list of ex-Falcons in college coaching.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 27, 2018, 03:17:41 PM
So in 1 year Hartwick has gone from playing D1 to D3. Every player besides 1 transferred out but the Head Coach stayed for the ride. They go 0-12-0 in D3 while scoring 4 goals and giving up 53 and are getting ready to close out their season v Bryant & Stratton......It would be an understatement to say the Head Coach has now officially been thru the ringer and spat out. In all seriousness Hartwick should be able to compete in a couple years especially in that weak conference.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 28, 2018, 06:22:47 PM
Paul Newman's Own Top 25 (October 28th)

1)  Messiah
2)  Calvin
3)  Tufts (would have dropped 2-3 spots but don't see teams to bounce Jumbos lower)
4)  Montclair St

5)  CWRU
6)  Chicago
7)  Cortland St.
8)  North Park

9)  Kenyon
10) Rochester
11) Trinity (TX)
12) St Joseph's (ME) (the hype cools a bit after two consecutive fairly nervy 1-0 wins over average to below average competition)

13) Johns Hopkins
14) Amherst
15) Mary Washington
16) SLU

17) Stevens
18) Connecticut College
19) Haverford
20) Franklin & Marshall

21) Capital
22) Washington & Lee
23) Lynchburg
24) Claremont-Mudd-Scripps
25) Oglethorpe/Eastern/Gustavus Adolphus [TIE]

RV -- Middlebury; OWU; Lycoming; Hope; St Thomas; Carleton; John Carroll; Ramapo; Carnegie Mellon; Ithaca; Luther; Loras; Babson; Redlands; Texas-Dallas; Sailisbury; Williams; Bowdoin; St Norbert; Ithaca; Mt. Union; Salve Regina; NYU; Grove City; Springfield; WPI
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on October 29, 2018, 07:48:35 AM
 Paul you have been rather quiet regarding Kenyon this year. They look to be having a very good season. Could this be the year they go to the final 4? Do they have what it takes?  Will they wrestle the title from Messiah and the NESCAC for the first time since 2011. Perhaps a UAA side will bring it home. Should be interesting tournament.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 29, 2018, 11:21:03 AM
Quote from: rudy on October 29, 2018, 07:48:35 AM
Paul you have been rather quiet regarding Kenyon this year. They look to be having a very good season. Could this be the year they go to the final 4? Do they have what it takes?  Will they wrestle the title from Messiah and the NESCAC for the first time since 2011. Perhaps a UAA side will bring it home. Should be interesting tournament.

Surpassing expectations is preferable to not meeting them, and I usually prefer to see Kenyon in a slight underdog role rather than slight favorite.  I honestly don't know what to make of Kenyon this year.  I give a ton of credit to Brown as my sense is that this is his best coaching job, with a team that IMO is weaker than 2014, 2015, and 2016, and I have a hard time thinking they are as good or better than 2017 because of Myers graduating and Carmona not returning. Maybe they are closer to the 2013 squad that really was the start of the current six year stretch. That said, I am hoping I am wrong, and the Lords do have an interesting mix of a very good senior class (unfortunately minus Carmona) and a bunch of talented frosh with a few solid sophomores.  I will give a nod to the senior class whose record thus far of 69-9-6 over their four years probably stacks up well against anyone other than Messiah or Calvin....and they've won 4 straight NCAC regular season titles and been within a hair of the Final Four twice.  Brown has played the younger guys a ton and hopefully they now have enough experience to perform in bigger games.  They also cannot make any of the mistakes they made versus CWRU (got burned) and against OWU (where they were fortunate to not get burned).  Bottom line is that I suspect Kenyon could beat anyone in the country in one game but also lose to a far greater number of teams than could the truly serious top 5-6 contenders.  Neither a 1st or 2nd round exit OR a good run would surprise me, assuming they get a bid.  The Pool Cs are going quickly.  Tufts and Conn Coll already, plus two out of three among Chicago, CWRU and Rochester, and all three of those if Wash U somehow wins the AQ (which maybe they can't after the draw with NYU).  Anyway, at least four Pool Cs are already definitely gone. 

To get back to your question, IMO there are a very limited number of teams that can displace Messiah or Tufts/NESCAC, and an interesting bet would be Messiah/Tufts versus the field.  The few true contenders IMO are obviously Calvin and Chicago.  I would give North Park a chance as well because they've been there.  Maybe CWRU.  Maybe Trinity (TX).  A real darkhorse (if they get in) might be St. Thomas as they just had a Final Four and Elite 8 back to back.  A good draw could open up for another team....maybe like a Montclair or Cortland....or Amherst...but I really don't see any other teams that are going to string together 4-6 wins in the tournament.

P.S.  I might add Johns Hopkins to the darkhorse list.  I like teams that already have played a Messiah, Tufts, Calvin, Chicago, etc and know what to expect and can come right out of the gate with the right mentality.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TheGreenKnight920 on October 29, 2018, 11:35:56 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 28, 2018, 06:22:47 PM
Paul Newman's Own Top 25 (October 28th)

1)  Messiah
2)  Calvin
3)  Tufts (would have dropped 2-3 spots but don't see teams to bounce Jumbos lower)
4)  Montclair St

5)  CWRU
6)  Chicago
7)  Cortland St.
8)  North Park

9)  Kenyon
10) Rochester
11) Trinity (TX)
12) St Joseph's (ME) (the hype cools a bit after two consecutive fairly nervy 1-0 wins over average to below average competition)

13) Johns Hopkins
14) Amherst
15) Mary Washington
16) SLU

17) Stevens
18) Connecticut College
19) Haverford
20) Franklin & Marshall

21) Capital
22) Washington & Lee
23) Lynchburg
24) Claremont-Mudd-Scripps
25) Oglethorpe/Eastern/Gustavus Adolphus [TIE]

RV -- Middlebury; OWU; Lycoming; Hope; St Thomas; Carleton; John Carroll; Ramapo; Carnegie Mellon; Ithaca; Luther; Loras; Babson; Redlands; Texas-Dallas; Sailisbury; Williams; Bowdoin; St Norbert; Ithaca; Mt. Union; Salve Regina; NYU; Grove City; Springfield; WPI

I'm admittedly a bit of a homer, but no SNC even in the top 25? They are undefeated (one of only 4 remaining, I believe) and have thrashed through their entire slate. UWP, Knox, Cornell and MSOE are all quality wins for them. There's only so much you can control in terms of conference strength of schedule.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 29, 2018, 11:46:21 AM
Quote from: TheGreenKnight920 on October 29, 2018, 11:35:56 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 28, 2018, 06:22:47 PM
Paul Newman's Own Top 25 (October 28th)

1)  Messiah
2)  Calvin
3)  Tufts (would have dropped 2-3 spots but don't see teams to bounce Jumbos lower)
4)  Montclair St

5)  CWRU
6)  Chicago
7)  Cortland St.
8)  North Park

9)  Kenyon
10) Rochester
11) Trinity (TX)
12) St Joseph's (ME) (the hype cools a bit after two consecutive fairly nervy 1-0 wins over average to below average competition)

13) Johns Hopkins
14) Amherst
15) Mary Washington
16) SLU

17) Stevens
18) Connecticut College
19) Haverford
20) Franklin & Marshall

21) Capital
22) Washington & Lee
23) Lynchburg
24) Claremont-Mudd-Scripps
25) Oglethorpe/Eastern/Gustavus Adolphus [TIE]

RV -- Middlebury; OWU; Lycoming; Hope; St Thomas; Carleton; John Carroll; Ramapo; Carnegie Mellon; Ithaca; Luther; Loras; Babson; Redlands; Texas-Dallas; Sailisbury; Williams; Bowdoin; St Norbert; Ithaca; Mt. Union; Salve Regina; NYU; Grove City; Springfield; WPI

I'm admittedly a bit of a homer, but no SNC even in the top 25? They are undefeated (one of only 4 remaining, I believe) and have thrashed through their entire slate. UWP, Knox, Cornell and MSOE are all quality wins for them. There's only so much you can control in terms of conference strength of schedule.

Congrats on a great season!  When I do these, I get to the last 3-4 slots and have about 10-12 teams that could go in there.  St. Norbert obviously is deserving, but then I have to think of which team I would take out to put them in.  Same with Salve Regina. 

How do you see St Norbert comparing to Gustavus, Carleton, Loras, Hope, etc?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: daddyEzK on October 29, 2018, 11:55:47 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 28, 2018, 06:22:47 PM
Paul Newman's Own Top 25 (October 28th)

1)  Messiah
2)  Calvin
3)  Tufts (would have dropped 2-3 spots but don't see teams to bounce Jumbos lower)
4)  Montclair St

5)  CWRU
6)  Chicago
7)  Cortland St.
8)  North Park

9)  Kenyon
10) Rochester
11) Trinity (TX)
12) St Joseph's (ME) (the hype cools a bit after two consecutive fairly nervy 1-0 wins over average to below average competition)

13) Johns Hopkins
14) Amherst
15) Mary Washington
16) SLU

17) Stevens
18) Connecticut College
19) Haverford
20) Franklin & Marshall

21) Capital
22) Washington & Lee
23) Lynchburg
24) Claremont-Mudd-Scripps
25) Oglethorpe/Eastern/Gustavus Adolphus [TIE]

RV -- Middlebury; OWU; Lycoming; Hope; St Thomas; Carleton; John Carroll; Ramapo; Carnegie Mellon; Ithaca; Luther; Loras; Babson; Redlands; Texas-Dallas; Sailisbury; Williams; Bowdoin; St Norbert; Ithaca; Mt. Union; Salve Regina; NYU; Grove City; Springfield; WPI

Happy to see Haverford on the list and especially having them listed ahead of F&M.  F&M drawing McDaniels, when seeding in the conference tournament was on the line, should not be rewarded.  Hope the NCAA poll this week agrees with you.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TheGreenKnight920 on October 29, 2018, 12:19:25 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 29, 2018, 11:46:21 AM
Quote from: TheGreenKnight920 on October 29, 2018, 11:35:56 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 28, 2018, 06:22:47 PM
Paul Newman's Own Top 25 (October 28th)

1)  Messiah
2)  Calvin
3)  Tufts (would have dropped 2-3 spots but don't see teams to bounce Jumbos lower)
4)  Montclair St

5)  CWRU
6)  Chicago
7)  Cortland St.
8)  North Park

9)  Kenyon
10) Rochester
11) Trinity (TX)
12) St Joseph's (ME) (the hype cools a bit after two consecutive fairly nervy 1-0 wins over average to below average competition)

13) Johns Hopkins
14) Amherst
15) Mary Washington
16) SLU

17) Stevens
18) Connecticut College
19) Haverford
20) Franklin & Marshall

21) Capital
22) Washington & Lee
23) Lynchburg
24) Claremont-Mudd-Scripps
25) Oglethorpe/Eastern/Gustavus Adolphus [TIE]

RV -- Middlebury; OWU; Lycoming; Hope; St Thomas; Carleton; John Carroll; Ramapo; Carnegie Mellon; Ithaca; Luther; Loras; Babson; Redlands; Texas-Dallas; Sailisbury; Williams; Bowdoin; St Norbert; Ithaca; Mt. Union; Salve Regina; NYU; Grove City; Springfield; WPI

I'm admittedly a bit of a homer, but no SNC even in the top 25? They are undefeated (one of only 4 remaining, I believe) and have thrashed through their entire slate. UWP, Knox, Cornell and MSOE are all quality wins for them. There's only so much you can control in terms of conference strength of schedule.

Congrats on a great season!  When I do these, I get to the last 3-4 slots and have about 10-12 teams that could go in there.  St. Norbert obviously is deserving, but then I have to think of which team I would take out to put them in.  Same with Salve Regina. 

How do you see St Norbert comparing to Gustavus, Carleton, Loras, Hope, etc?

Not really a lot of common opponents between many of these teams and SNC, except for Loras, who has lost a couple games to teams SNC has beaten. Eastern, for example, has also lost some questionable games, and plays in a conference that I would at least consider the MWC to be on par with, would be a team to swap out SNC with. I agree, though, that there are many worthy teams to slot into this top 25, but I think SNC, and even Gusty probably deserve to be in there.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 29, 2018, 02:58:34 PM
Per how committees are made up, understand a few things:

- The committees must have a minimum of 50% representation by administrators. There is a loophole that an admin can also be a coach, but they will be "designated" one or the other in terms of numbers.
- A committee member who is a coach may NOT discuss, lobby, or anything else when it comes to his team. They have to remove themselves from the call (mute at best) if and when their team is being discussed. Their "designation" is not relevant. If they are designated as an admin for committee numbers, but they are a head coach of a team ... they cannot participate. This also is in play for at-large selections and to some degree bracketing on the national committee (exact roles in terms of bracketing are determined on a committee by committee [liaison by liaison] basis; some of them completely removed, others have them working on something else).
- After the conference calls take place, the vote is done online through an NCAA system. It is not a straw poll on the call anymore. So one person's voice can be ignored if others want. They can vote how they feel. Some regional committee chairs want members to explain their votes (written down) so they can see the reasoning and explain it to the national committee if necessary.
- Ultimately, the regional committees are only advisory in nature. The National Committee can take or leave their recommendations. The National Committees will make any changes they see fit and relay the reasons why back to the regional committees.

Sure, there are coaches who don't get a long or like each other, but in my experience that doesn't go very far in committee conversations. That individual will either be singled out for their thinking and told to cease ... or removed from the committee (at worst). Also, committee members may know that and just ignore the person's point of view. Finally, the national committee will ultimately decide things, so one person on one regional committee isn't going to wield that much power or sway.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blue_jays on October 29, 2018, 03:06:36 PM
Quote from: TheGreenKnight920 on October 29, 2018, 12:19:25 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 29, 2018, 11:46:21 AM
Quote from: TheGreenKnight920 on October 29, 2018, 11:35:56 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 28, 2018, 06:22:47 PM
Paul Newman's Own Top 25 (October 28th)

1)  Messiah
2)  Calvin
3)  Tufts (would have dropped 2-3 spots but don't see teams to bounce Jumbos lower)
4)  Montclair St

5)  CWRU
6)  Chicago
7)  Cortland St.
8)  North Park

9)  Kenyon
10) Rochester
11) Trinity (TX)
12) St Joseph's (ME) (the hype cools a bit after two consecutive fairly nervy 1-0 wins over average to below average competition)

13) Johns Hopkins
14) Amherst
15) Mary Washington
16) SLU

17) Stevens
18) Connecticut College
19) Haverford
20) Franklin & Marshall

21) Capital
22) Washington & Lee
23) Lynchburg
24) Claremont-Mudd-Scripps
25) Oglethorpe/Eastern/Gustavus Adolphus [TIE]

RV -- Middlebury; OWU; Lycoming; Hope; St Thomas; Carleton; John Carroll; Ramapo; Carnegie Mellon; Ithaca; Luther; Loras; Babson; Redlands; Texas-Dallas; Sailisbury; Williams; Bowdoin; St Norbert; Ithaca; Mt. Union; Salve Regina; NYU; Grove City; Springfield; WPI

I'm admittedly a bit of a homer, but no SNC even in the top 25? They are undefeated (one of only 4 remaining, I believe) and have thrashed through their entire slate. UWP, Knox, Cornell and MSOE are all quality wins for them. There's only so much you can control in terms of conference strength of schedule.

Congrats on a great season!  When I do these, I get to the last 3-4 slots and have about 10-12 teams that could go in there.  St. Norbert obviously is deserving, but then I have to think of which team I would take out to put them in.  Same with Salve Regina. 

How do you see St Norbert comparing to Gustavus, Carleton, Loras, Hope, etc?

Not really a lot of common opponents between many of these teams and SNC, except for Loras, who has lost a couple games to teams SNC has beaten. Eastern, for example, has also lost some questionable games, and plays in a conference that I would at least consider the MWC to be on par with, would be a team to swap out SNC with. I agree, though, that there are many worthy teams to slot into this top 25, but I think SNC, and even Gusty probably deserve to be in there.

The schedule is the problem for St. Norbert. The MWC has not been a good MSOC conference, so those wins don't hold a lot of weight on a national scale. They beat an Elmhurst team that won 4 games this year, their worst season in 12 years (Elmhurst beat Knox as well). St. Scholastica is having its worst season since 2005. Lakeland is 3-16. They tied a Carroll team that went 3-13-2.
The MSOE and Platteville wins are the only quality squads that I see in the schedule, and neither school comes from a power soccer conference.
SNC could well prove to be a worthy top 25 team, but they're gonna have to prove it in the NCAA tournament.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Buck O. on October 29, 2018, 03:17:08 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 29, 2018, 11:21:03 AM
Quote from: rudy on October 29, 2018, 07:48:35 AM
Paul you have been rather quiet regarding Kenyon this year. They look to be having a very good season. Could this be the year they go to the final 4? Do they have what it takes?  Will they wrestle the title from Messiah and the NESCAC for the first time since 2011. Perhaps a UAA side will bring it home. Should be interesting tournament.
Tufts and Conn Coll already, plus two out of three among Chicago, CWRU and Rochester, and all three of those if Wash U somehow wins the AQ (which maybe they can't after the draw with NYU). 

They can't.  WashU is four points back of Chicago with only one game to go.  So the AQ will go to Chicago or Case.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 30, 2018, 10:38:35 AM
Those interested in following the Pool C drama and concerned for your own team's chances may want to keep an eye on more top teams with decent to good chances to stumble in their conference tourneys.....Montclair (a semi with Rowan), Cortland (semi with Oneonta), Amherst, Mary Washington, Oglethorpe, Kenyon, Capital, maybe John Carroll, North Park, Trinity (TX), GAC, SLU, maybe Luther....and even Messiah (possible rematch with Lycoming) and Calvin (semi with rival Hope).  Some of the above may well not be locks for Pool Cs if they do falter, but certainly Montclair, Cortland, Trinity (TX), Messiah and Calvin would all get bids.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on October 30, 2018, 05:25:02 PM
An unusual goal is an unusual goal in any language. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lVE-vsOvzA&fbclid=IwAR2Et_a-HCdG4wVidIQtL1mzyTgudP7SIHksfjD6ktqISvSmj0XvDOYRfxw)
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on October 30, 2018, 07:01:16 PM
Ramapo's Joseph Fala brace today puts him at 25, leading the nation...

Ramapo advances to NJAC Final vs winner of MSU and Rowan.

Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 30, 2018, 09:16:40 PM
Note to self....limit one's number of published darkhorses.  St Thomas is done after failing in PKs versus Augsburg.

By any measure outstanding opening season for Brandt at Hope and maybe they will get a bid.  However, he's got some work to do, losing twice against Calvin this year by combined score of 10-0.  Calvin is boringly consistent....basically never lose a game they aren't supposed to lose.  Is Vegter a senior yet, or does he still have another year???
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Domino1195 on October 30, 2018, 09:37:32 PM
Need to look at this season's performance. Not last year. Not history. Hope - what have they done to even consider an at - large bid? Nothing.

Otterbein was #11 preseason. Not even an after thought now. I carped about preseason rankings - how worthless they were. Rankings by sites like D3 are worthless and usually based on history - not correct metrics
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 30, 2018, 09:45:14 PM
Yeah, I was....Hope has been very mediocre for at least several years.  Brandt has had a very good turnaround season....compare this year's performance to recent years.  Don't know if they will get a bid or not, but they have been ranked in the rankings that matter (the regional rankings).  Didn't say anything about preseason.  I agree with you about Capital....but Capital also is ranked in the rankings that matter and is in a decent to good position to get a bid.  No need to conflate your feelings about treatment towards Capital with Hope.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 31, 2018, 12:45:11 PM
This Cortland / Oneonta SUNYAC Semi could be a battle today. I know Oneonta is down this year but they are still a formidable outfit do they have a chance of knocking off Cortland? Or does Cortland absolutely kick them when they are down and trash Oneonta at Home today? I am guessing the former.

New Paltz v Brockport will also be interesting as New Paltz has a chance for a Pool C with a Win here and at least a Draw against preferably Cortland in the Final but Cortland might just remember that New Paltz torched them earlier this season. Of Course we could see Brockport run the table as well although I have not seen them play this year.

My guess is Cortland goes down somewhere along the line in this SUNYAC Tournament whether in PK's or OT and gives the SUNYAC 2 NCAA teams.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on October 31, 2018, 02:41:58 PM
NEW ENGLAND REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 31, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Tufts
13-0-3
0.596
5-0-2
13-0-3
1
2.
Connecticut College
12-2-2
0.588
3-1-2
12-2-2
2
3.
Amherst
12-3-1
0.590
3-3-1
12-3-1
4
4.
Babson
11-2-4
0.581
2-2-1
11-2-4
3
5.
Middlebury
10-3-3
0.571
2-3-1
10-3-3
5
6.
Williams
9-5-2
0.590
3-3-1
9-5-2
7
7.
Endicott
10-5-2
0.605
2-4-0
10-5-2
9
8.
Bowdoin
9-5-2
0.588
2-4-1
9-5-2
6
9.
Hamilton
9-6-1
0.589
2-5-1
9-6-1
--
10.
St. Joseph's (Maine)
18-0-0
0.498
2-0-0
18-0-0
12
11.
Gordon
10-6-1
0.583
1-5-0
10-6-1
--
12.
WPI
12-2-3
0.514
1-2-2
12-2-3
--


EAST REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 31, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Rochester
12-2-1
0.602
4-2-0
12-2-1
1
2.
Cortland State
15-1-2
0.564
3-1-1
15-1-2
2
3.
St. Lawrence
11-2-2
0.554
2-1-0
11-2-2
3
4.
New York University
11-4-1
0.564
4-4-0
11-4-1
4
5.
New Paltz State
11-5-1
0.573
2-3-0
11-5-1
6
6.
Oneonta State
10-4-4
0.600
2-3-1
10-4-4
7
7.
Ithaca
12-2-3
0.535
1-0-2
12-2-3
--
8.
Stevens
15-2-1
0.516
3-2-0
15-2-1
8


MID-ATLANTIC REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 31, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Messiah
15-0-2
0.569
4-0-2
15-0-2
1
2.
Franklin and Marshall
12-2-3
0.599
6-2-1
12-2-3
2
3.
Johns Hopkins
13-3-1
0.593
3-3-1
13-3-1
3
4.
Eastern
15-2-1
0.550
2-1-1
15-2-1
4
5.
Haverford
12-4-0
0.586
4-4-0
12-4-0
5
6.
Dickinson
10-5-2
0.593
2-4-1
10-5-2
6
7.
Lycoming
14-3-1
0.534
1-2-0
14-3-1
8
8.
Lebanon Valley
10-5-1
0.558
0-4-1
10-5-1
7
9.
Swarthmore
9-7-1
0.589
2-4-1
9-7-1
9
10.
Catholic
10-5-1
0.533
1-2-0
10-5-1
--


SOUTH ATLANTIC REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 31, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Montclair State
15-1-2
0.543
3-1-1
15-1-2
1
2.
Mary Washington
13-1-3
0.535
2-0-0
13-1-3
2
3.
Ramapo
13-2-2
0.542
3-1-1
14-2-2
--
4.
Oglethorpe
11-2-0
0.542
1-1-0
12-2-0
3
5.
Rowan
12-6-0
0.599
3-3-0
12-6-0
4
6.
William Paterson
12-6-1
0.585
4-4-0
12-6-1
8
7.
Rutgers-Camden
13-5-2
0.589
2-4-0
13-5-2
6
8.
Washington and Lee
12-3-1
0.554
1-2-0
12-3-1
--
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on October 31, 2018, 02:42:36 PM
GREAT LAKES REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 31, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Case Western Reserve
14-2-1
0.611
6-2-1
14-2-1
1
2.
John Carroll
12-4-1
0.592
3-3-1
12-4-1
5
3.
Carnegie Mellon
10-4-2
0.629
3-3-2
10-4-2
3
4.
Kenyon
14-1-2
0.560
1-1-2
14-1-2
2
5.
Capital
14-3-0
0.569
2-3-0
14-3-0
4
6.
Mount Union
12-3-1
0.525
3-1-0
12-3-1
7
7.
Ohio Wesleyan
12-3-2
0.542
1-2-1
12-3-2
6
8.
Ohio Northern
10-7-1
0.550
1-5-0
10-7-1
8


CENTRAL REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 31, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Chicago
14-2-1
0.642
8-2-1
14-2-1
1
2.
Calvin
14-1-0
0.560
3-1-0
15-1-0
2
3.
Hope
12-2-1
0.547
3-1-0
14-2-1
3
4.
North Park
15-2-0
0.526
2-2-0
15-2-0
5
5.
Washington U.
7-6-2
0.642
4-3-2
7-6-2
--
6.
Wheaton (Ill.)
10-6-1
0.557
3-2-0
10-6-1
7
7.
Carthage
9-8-1
0.568
1-5-1
10-8-1
6


NORTH REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 31, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Luther
14-3-1
0.557
2-2-0
14-3-1
2
2.
St. Thomas
14-3-1
0.577
2-2-1
14-3-1
4
3.
UW-Platteville
12-1-3
0.553
1-1-0
12-1-3
3
4.
Gustavus Adolphus
12-2-1
0.551
2-1-1
14-2-1
1
5.
Carleton
13-1-2
0.519
1-1-1
14-1-2
6
6.
St. Norbert
16-0-1
0.511
2-0-0
16-0-1
7
7.
Macalester
10-5-3
0.579
2-5-1
10-5-3
--


WEST REGION - NCAA REGIONAL RANKINGS - October 31, 2018

Rank

School
. Div. III .
Record
. Div. III .
SOS

 . R-v-R .
. Overall .
Record
. Prev. .
Rank
1.
Claremont-Mudd-Scripps
14-2-0
0.525
2-0-0
15-2-0
4
2.
Trinity (Texas)
12-1-2
0.521
1-1-1
14-1-2
1
3.
Mary Hardin-Baylor
12-3-1
0.520
2-1-0
12-3-1
3
4.
Redlands
13-3-0
0.531
0-2-0
13-4-0
2
5.
Colorado College
11-5-1
0.536
2-2-1
13-5-1
--
6.
Southwestern
10-4-1
0.537
1-3-0
10-5-2
--
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 31, 2018, 03:19:34 PM
Meanwhile for these Bubble teams.....Cortland being held 0-0 by Oneonta, New Paltz lost today, Kenyon being held by Wabash 0-0, Mary Washington being held by Frostburg 0-0 nearing OT....on and on
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 31, 2018, 04:31:10 PM
Oneonta scored off a nice 1-2 to go up on Cortland with about 10-15 minutes left in the game but Cortland tied it up 1-1 with about 4 minutes left in the game...Pretty good game but Oneonta's season will end if they cannot advance here. They were 5 minutes away but Cortland showed some guts getting the game tying goal. OT ready to start.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on October 31, 2018, 04:35:48 PM
POOL C is filling up quick...

NESCAC (3):  Tufts, Conn, Wiliams/Amherst/Midd
UAA (4/5):  Rochester, Chicago/CWRU, CMU, NYU with WashU on the bubble
Centennial (2):  Definitely two with Dickinson on the outside of the bubble.
NJAC (1/2):  Finalist and a potential third on the outside looking in...
SUNYAC: two-bid league
CCIW:  two-bid league
OAC: could be a two-bid league with JC and Capital vying for AQ





Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gray Fox on October 31, 2018, 04:38:13 PM
SCIAC All Conference and Playoff match ups.

https://www.thesciac.org/sports/msoc/2018-19/releases/20181030jcv2oa
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 31, 2018, 04:58:46 PM
Wow.  Kenyon at the buzzer in 2nd OT.

Looked like Tufts-Colby and OWU-Denison games....shots 19-1 but Wabash held them until 109:59.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 31, 2018, 05:07:12 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 31, 2018, 04:35:48 PM
POOL C is filling up quick...

NESCAC (3):  Tufts, Conn, Wiliams/Amherst/Midd
UAA (4/5):  Rochester, Chicago/CWRU, CMU, NYU with WashU on the bubble
Centennial (2):  Definitely two with Dickinson on the outside of the bubble.
NJAC (1/2):  Finalist and a potential third on the outside looking in...
SUNYAC: two-bid league
CCIW:  two-bid league
OAC: could be a two-bid league with JC and Capital vying for AQ

CCIW a two-bid league?  Even if North Park wins the CCIW tournament/AQ?  I'm not seeing Carthage getting in without the AQ even with a win tonight.  Wheaton is a little tougher to call if they win tonight to reach the final because it would be another win and another win vs. a ranked opponent.  I'd have to look over the full Pool C picture to really form an opinion, but I guess a fourth win vs. ranked could be enough.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 31, 2018, 05:11:10 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 31, 2018, 04:58:46 PM
Wow.  Kenyon at the buzzer in 2nd OT.

Looked like Tufts-Colby and OWU-Denison games....shots 19-1 but Wabash held them until 109:59.

It's always amazing when after all the time played without a goal, one comes with 1 tick on the clock.  If Kenyon doesn't get that goal and would have lost in PK's, it's a nervous several days for them even though they probably would still have gotten selected.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 31, 2018, 05:14:09 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 31, 2018, 05:11:10 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 31, 2018, 04:58:46 PM
Wow.  Kenyon at the buzzer in 2nd OT.

Looked like Tufts-Colby and OWU-Denison games....shots 19-1 but Wabash held them until 109:59.

It's always amazing when after all the time played without a goal, one comes with 1 tick on the clock.  If Kenyon doesn't get that goal and would have lost in PK's, it's a nervous several days for them even though they probably would still have gotten selected.

Absolutely.  Dropped to 4th in RR today and very easily could have been out.  I was already preparing my dissertation on the evils of the selection criteria lol.  Could still be out if lose Saturday, but better obviously to sneak by today.

Now I can go home, fix a drink, pop some popcorn and enjoy the nightcaps as a neutral.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on October 31, 2018, 05:21:15 PM
Cortland advances past Oneonta in PK's.....After watching that I would not want to face Cortland in PK's as they went 4/5 but the miss was just off the post. The other 4 were perfectly hit...The Cortland GK saved 2 and is athletic...They got a good team this year for sure and they will be home for at least one weekend...Oneonta 10-4-5 and not sure even with the Draw how they get in...Although you have to figure that the East teams will quickly be taken off the board...Cortland,UR,SLU should easily go and then maybe a little back and forth on NYU. I assume New Paltz drops a spot and possibly Oneonta takes it. So they would be next in line to get "discussed" for a Pool C.....610 SOS and 2-3-2 RvR is not bad....I think 2 SUNYAC teams probably get in....Both teams looked like NCAA teams to me...
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on October 31, 2018, 05:28:37 PM
Gustavus loses to Augsburg.  Shakes up the North a bit.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TheGreenKnight920 on October 31, 2018, 05:44:36 PM
What do you all make of teams like St. Joes (ME), Salve and SNC, who are undefeated, but not highly ranked regionally? Does a conference tourney loss bump them out of a Pool C bid?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on October 31, 2018, 05:48:19 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 31, 2018, 05:07:12 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 31, 2018, 04:35:48 PM
POOL C is filling up quick...

NESCAC (3):  Tufts, Conn, Wiliams/Amherst/Midd
UAA (4/5):  Rochester, Chicago/CWRU, CMU, NYU with WashU on the bubble
Centennial (2):  Definitely two with Dickinson on the outside of the bubble.
NJAC (1/2):  Finalist and a potential third on the outside looking in...
SUNYAC: two-bid league
CCIW:  two-bid league
OAC: could be a two-bid league with JC and Capital vying for AQ

CCIW a two-bid league?  Even if North Park wins the CCIW tournament/AQ?  I'm not seeing Carthage getting in without the AQ even with a win tonight.  Wheaton is a little tougher to call if they win tonight to reach the final because it would be another win and another win vs. a ranked opponent.  I'd have to look over the full Pool C picture to really form an opinion, but I guess a fourth win vs. ranked could be enough.

I can't imagine Carthage getting a Pool C berth under any circumstances.

Wheaton will only have three RRO wins, not four, if it beats Carthage tonight and loses to North Park on Saturday. And that's even if Carthage holds on to the seventh and final Central Region slot, in spite of losing at home tonight, when the committee fashions the final ranking. That is by no means guaranteed. One of Wheaton's three current RRO wins was over Millikin, which is no longer ranked and will not re-enter the final rankings, either. My read, and I don't claim to be an expert on how this current iteration of the national committee operates with regard to weighing criteria, is that Wheaton would be a longshot for a Pool C berth if it won tonight and lost on Saturday at NPU.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on October 31, 2018, 06:10:08 PM
Quote from: TheGreenKnight920 on October 31, 2018, 05:44:36 PM
What do you all make of teams like St. Joes (ME), Salve and SNC, who are undefeated, but not highly ranked regionally? Does a conference tourney loss bump them out of a Pool C bid?t

Others with more knowledge will chime in but it's team is not at lest in the upper half of the regional ranking they have no shot at pool C.  So a team like St Joe's toward bottom of 12 team region playing remaining games against non ranked teams isn't going to suddenly jump to the top half. They have to get the AQ
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 31, 2018, 07:05:08 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 31, 2018, 05:48:19 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 31, 2018, 05:07:12 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 31, 2018, 04:35:48 PM
POOL C is filling up quick...

NESCAC (3):  Tufts, Conn, Wiliams/Amherst/Midd
UAA (4/5):  Rochester, Chicago/CWRU, CMU, NYU with WashU on the bubble
Centennial (2):  Definitely two with Dickinson on the outside of the bubble.
NJAC (1/2):  Finalist and a potential third on the outside looking in...
SUNYAC: two-bid league
CCIW:  two-bid league
OAC: could be a two-bid league with JC and Capital vying for AQ

CCIW a two-bid league?  Even if North Park wins the CCIW tournament/AQ?  I'm not seeing Carthage getting in without the AQ even with a win tonight.  Wheaton is a little tougher to call if they win tonight to reach the final because it would be another win and another win vs. a ranked opponent.  I'd have to look over the full Pool C picture to really form an opinion, but I guess a fourth win vs. ranked could be enough.

I can't imagine Carthage getting a Pool C berth under any circumstances.

Wheaton will only have three RRO wins, not four, if it beats Carthage tonight and loses to North Park on Saturday. And that's even if Carthage holds on to the seventh and final Central Region slot, in spite of losing at home tonight, when the committee fashions the final ranking. That is by no means guaranteed. One of Wheaton's three current RRO wins was over Millikin, which is no longer ranked and will not re-enter the final rankings, either. My read, and I don't claim to be an expert on how this current iteration of the national committee operates with regard to weighing criteria, is that Wheaton would be a longshot for a Pool C berth if it won tonight and lost on Saturday at NPU.

Yes, you are absolutely correct that Wheaton loses the win versus ranked with Millikin dropping out this week. So they'll only have 3. However, any result against teams ranked in today's rankings is there to stay regardless if those opponents would drop out of the final rankings.  That was the new definition of results versus ranked that was implemented last season.  It's results against teams ranked in the  final ranking and the ranking preceding the final ranking.  Today's ranking is the one preceding the final ranking.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on October 31, 2018, 07:15:50 PM
Quote from: rudy on October 31, 2018, 06:10:08 PM
Quote from: TheGreenKnight920 on October 31, 2018, 05:44:36 PM
What do you all make of teams like St. Joes (ME), Salve and SNC, who are undefeated, but not highly ranked regionally? Does a conference tourney loss bump them out of a Pool C bid?t

Others with more knowledge will chime in but it's team is not at lest in the upper half of the regional ranking they have no shot at pool C.  So a team like St Joe's toward bottom of 12 team region playing remaining games against non ranked teams isn't going to suddenly jump to the top half. They have to get the AQ

Well, it's not quite that strict.  Some regions will go deeper than others and a smaller region with a bunch of strong teams (e.g. South Atlantic) can easily see more than just the top half get in.  It's probably safer to say that a team usually needs to be in the top half to two-thirds of the regional rankings, depending on the strength/depth of the region, to have a shot.  And upsets in the conference tournament affect this some as well.  As the number of conference champions that are unranked increases, the higher up the rankings a team is going o need to be to get in.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3bandwagon on October 31, 2018, 11:20:17 PM
Speaking as a novice to the forum, is there a certain amount of at large bids that each region receives? Size matters as some are ranked to lower number but did not know if there is any history showing at large bids per region(s)?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on October 31, 2018, 11:25:51 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on October 31, 2018, 07:05:08 PMYes, you are absolutely correct that Wheaton loses the win versus ranked with Millikin dropping out this week. So they'll only have 3. However, any result against teams ranked in today's rankings is there to stay regardless if those opponents would drop out of the final rankings.  That was the new definition of results versus ranked that was implemented last season.  It's results against teams ranked in the  final ranking and the ranking preceding the final ranking.  Today's ranking is the one preceding the final ranking.

Good point. I'd forgotten about that rule change.

Quote from: D3bandwagon on October 31, 2018, 11:20:17 PM
Speaking as a novice to the forum, is there a certain amount of at large bids that each region receives? Size matters as some are ranked to lower number but did not know if there is any history showing at large bids per region(s)?

I don't know as to whether or not someone's compiled the history you're seeking, but I can tell you that there are no region-based limitations on Pool C (at-large) berths. A single region could theoretically gobble up every available Pool C bid (although the odds of that happening are astronomical), or it could garner zero Pool C bids.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 31, 2018, 11:51:49 PM
Not getting a bid in a region is pretty common in a lot of sports... but as Sager said, there are no limits or numbers given to how many can be selected from a region. We left that system (which is similar to DII, who have no AQs though [I believe; I know there are none in basketball]) a very long time ago (sad... it's a long time ago ... and I remember it).
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 31, 2018, 11:52:57 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 30, 2018, 05:25:02 PM
An unusual goal is an unusual goal in any language. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lVE-vsOvzA&fbclid=IwAR2Et_a-HCdG4wVidIQtL1mzyTgudP7SIHksfjD6ktqISvSmj0XvDOYRfxw)

What the F--- was that goalie thinking?! JEEZ!

As a former goalie (though, always at heart) ... I would have been more than embarrassed to give that one up. Not to take anything away from the strike. That was a beaut for a shot... but COME ON MAN!
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 01, 2018, 12:02:30 AM
Words to that effect were some of the first words out of my mouth on the air, Dave: "What in the world was Cammarano thinking? What was he doing out at the edge of the box while there was a loose ball at midfield?"
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 01, 2018, 01:17:26 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 01, 2018, 12:02:30 AM
Words to that effect were some of the first words out of my mouth on the air, Dave: "What in the world was Cammarano thinking? What was he doing out at the edge of the box while there was a loose ball at midfield?"

How many pauses were there for you to self-censor yourself? :)
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 01, 2018, 03:07:21 AM
The only pause was to catch my breath after screaming about the improbable goal that Ulrik Lund had just sent into the back of the net from 55 yards out. Then I started in on Cammarano.

I did cut myself off after a couple of moments of calling out Cammarano on his gaffe, though, because I was starting to feel sorry for him.

Me, feeling sorry for a Wheatie. I am definitely losing my edge.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 01, 2018, 08:14:10 PM
Is Live Stats correct that Stevenson is holding Messiah 0-0 almost midway 2nd Half?


This is the school that I swear took Messiah to OT a couple years ago and busted their ass all game only to give up the losing goal in OT...Maybe 2016 or 2015.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 01, 2018, 08:42:46 PM
Messiah up 1-0 and most likely will win that game which is a good thing as I am really looking forward to a rematch of Lycoming at Messiah. I expect Lycoming to come out gang busters and try to steal an early goal and hold on. With Lycoming's win today over a ranked team I would expect them to move up the rankings at least a spot or two. With that win I would guess they just played their way onto the bubble but still maybe the wrong side of it. In the regular season match Lycoming came out busting at Messiah but they really died off as the game wore on SO I would expect the same except they really need to focus to try to steal a goal early. Should be a good match of contrasting styles I am hoping on a Saturday night.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 01, 2018, 09:09:20 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 01, 2018, 08:42:46 PM
Messiah up 1-0 and most likely will win that game which is a good thing as I am really looking forward to a rematch of Lycoming at Messiah. I expect Lycoming to come out gang busters and try to steal an early goal and hold on. With Lycoming's win today over a ranked team I would expect them to move up the rankings at least a spot or two. With that win I would guess they just played their way onto the bubble but still maybe the wrong side of it. In the regular season match Lycoming came out busting at Messiah but they really died off as the game wore on SO I would expect the same except they really need to focus to try to steal a goal early. Should be a good match of contrasting styles I am hoping on a Saturday night.

I watched bits and pieces of the Lycoming game from earlier this afternoon and Lycoming looked as good as they have all season. A nice statistic for those of you who track foul counts and card counts...fouls were 14-10 Lyco and not a single yellow or red card in the game for either team! :o Lycoming is most certainly a bubble team but will need a little bit of help for an at-large as all bubble teams do. If Dickinson loses to Haverford then Lycoming will certainly jump Dickinson in the final rankings regardless of the Messiah vs Lyco outcome. Being in the top 6 of the Mid-Atlantic region is a must for a shot at a bid. Even if Dickinson wins vs Haverford and loses in the final to JHU/F&M I still think Lycoming will jump them after the result today.

As for the conference final matchup it should be a spectacle! This is the 5th conference final Lycoming has advanced to in the last 6 seasons and they have won 3 of the last 5. It has proven to be a fun match to watch as a neutral fan over the last half decade. After watching these two teams throughout the year they both look like NCAA tournament teams to me along with F&M, Hopkins, Haverford, and Eastern. It would be great for the region to see all of these teams in the tournament this year!
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on November 01, 2018, 10:17:54 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 01, 2018, 08:14:10 PM
Is Live Stats correct that Stevenson is holding Messiah 0-0 almost midway 2nd Half?


This is the school that I swear took Messiah to OT a couple years ago and busted their ass all game only to give up the losing goal in OT...Maybe 2016 or 2015.

They took them to OT this year at Stevenson. Both games outshot by a lot but bend dont break.  Goal tonight was by Luke G while playing center back. Missing lot of players still with injuries...3 starters.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 01, 2018, 10:40:25 PM
Quote from: rudy on November 01, 2018, 10:17:54 PM
They took them to OT this year at Stevenson. Both games outshot by a lot but bend dont break.  Goal tonight was by Luke G while playing center back. Missing lot of players still with injuries...3 starters.

Didn't Luke G get the winner against them earlier this year too?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on November 01, 2018, 11:31:27 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 01, 2018, 10:40:25 PM
Quote from: rudy on November 01, 2018, 10:17:54 PM
They took them to OT this year at Stevenson. Both games outshot by a lot but bend dont break.  Goal tonight was by Luke G while playing center back. Missing lot of players still with injuries...3 starters.

Didn't Luke G get the winner against them earlier this year too?
Yep! 2 game winners against Stevenson. They are an interesting team. 30 freshman and soph on roster with new first year coach. Something like 38 on the roster. Very young team. If they bring in more talent they may contend for top 2-3 in the league next year.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: paclassic89 on November 02, 2018, 01:24:05 AM
Quote from: rudy on November 01, 2018, 11:31:27 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 01, 2018, 10:40:25 PM
Quote from: rudy on November 01, 2018, 10:17:54 PM
They took them to OT this year at Stevenson. Both games outshot by a lot but bend dont break.  Goal tonight was by Luke G while playing center back. Missing lot of players still with injuries...3 starters.

Didn't Luke G get the winner against them earlier this year too?
Yep! 2 game winners against Stevenson. They are an interesting team. 30 freshman and soph on roster with new first year coach. Something like 38 on the roster. Very young team. If they bring in more talent they may contend for top 2-3 in the league next year.

They just need to add a bunch of international players and they've got the North Park formula for success  :D
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC43 on November 02, 2018, 08:55:34 AM
Haven't been on as much recently but have been catching some games. Watched Calvin play Hope this week and win 5-0. I usually try to contain myself with exaggerations but I really think Vegter has the ability to play professional soccer. I've seen some crazy good athletes come through D3 soccer and realize that they simply cannot play at the professional level. But this Vegter kid is amazing. Anyone else feel like he has the potential to get invited to/impress at the MLS combine and maybe get drafted?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 02, 2018, 09:11:37 AM
Quote from: NESCAC43 on November 02, 2018, 08:55:34 AM
Haven't been on as much recently but have been catching some games. Watched Calvin play Hope this week and win 5-0. I usually try to contain myself with exaggerations but I really think Vegter has the ability to play professional soccer. I've seen some crazy good athletes come through D3 soccer and realize that they simply cannot play at the professional level. But this Vegter kid is amazing. Anyone else feel like he has the potential to get invited to/impress at the MLS combine and maybe get drafted?

Yes. There have been a number of very good defenders that have come through D3 in recent years, but Vegter is different class. The best I've seen in my eight or so years of following D3 soccer. He's a freak.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 09:47:47 AM
Random thoughts on a Friday morning....

On the West Coast last night, C-M-S and Redlands both lost their semis.  Redlands is probably out, but C-M-S might be scooping up another Pool C.  Pool C candidates will be hoping that Trinity (TX) doesn't falter.

Vegter is more of a career story but he belongs in the discussion of "story of the year" along with Nick West, Chewy Gordon, Joseph Fala, St. Joseph's, St. Norbert, Ramapo, maybe the Hope turnaround, etc.  Obviously all of these families got their kids playing soccer at a young age but there has to be a real genetic component as well....the Vegter brothers, Thompson brothers, Robbins brothers, West brothers, Wall brothers, etc, etc. 

Vegter reminds me of a kid that at U10 or U12 you put up top to start the game to get 3 goals, moved to midfield to help some other kids on the team score, moved to defense to shut down the other team, and then put in the goal to close it out.  I could definitely see him playing professional soccer.

More than I can recall from recent years past (although I may be wrong), this is the year when Pool C selections will be dominated by outsized focus on SoS and "ranked wins" with winning percentage the big "loser."

The UAA will get six teams in (AQ plus 5 Pool Cs)....OK, maybe five and 4 Pool Cs (but I think there is a good chance for Wash U if they get a win against Chicago).

Calvin will win the national title.

St. Joseph's (ME), assuming the Monks pull through with an AQ, will get to at least the Elite 8.

D3soccer.com "poster of the year," for the second consecutive year, goes to Mr.Right in a landslide.

Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 09:54:48 AM
C-M-S and Trinity (TX) are both on the low side on SoS AND ranked wins, but would one or both (if Trinity loses in their tourney) benefit from a little extra consideration (compared to their Midwest and East Coach brethren) so that the West gets 1-2 Pool Cs?  Is there a general view with as a whole region it is harder for the West do well on SoS and ranked wins on a comparative basis?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on November 02, 2018, 10:12:04 AM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 01, 2018, 08:42:46 PM
Messiah up 1-0 and most likely will win that game which is a good thing as I am really looking forward to a rematch of Lycoming at Messiah. I expect Lycoming to come out gang busters and try to steal an early goal and hold on. With Lycoming's win today over a ranked team I would expect them to move up the rankings at least a spot or two. With that win I would guess they just played their way onto the bubble but still maybe the wrong side of it. In the regular season match Lycoming came out busting at Messiah but they really died off as the game wore on SO I would expect the same except they really need to focus to try to steal a goal early. Should be a good match of contrasting styles I am hoping on a Saturday night.


Saturday game is at 730pm after the women play at 5. While good for you so you can watch NESCAC and other New England games during the day...i wish just once Messiah would play a day game with the sun out. It's not easy killing time here between Thursday night game and Saturday night game.  At least it looks like rain today but Saturday afternoon and evening should be dry.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 02, 2018, 10:35:40 AM
Quote from: paclassic89 on November 02, 2018, 01:24:05 AM
Quote from: rudy on November 01, 2018, 11:31:27 PM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 01, 2018, 10:40:25 PM
Quote from: rudy on November 01, 2018, 10:17:54 PM
They took them to OT this year at Stevenson. Both games outshot by a lot but bend dont break.  Goal tonight was by Luke G while playing center back. Missing lot of players still with injuries...3 starters.

Didn't Luke G get the winner against them earlier this year too?
Yep! 2 game winners against Stevenson. They are an interesting team. 30 freshman and soph on roster with new first year coach. Something like 38 on the roster. Very young team. If they bring in more talent they may contend for top 2-3 in the league next year.

They just need to add a bunch of international players and they've got the North Park formula for success  :D

North Park has 16 American freshmen on the roster this year, 14 of which are from the Chicagoland area.

Did your favorite program bring in 16 American freshmen this year, 14 of them local, paclassic89?

Yeah, I thought so.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC43 on November 02, 2018, 10:51:43 AM
Quote from: blooter442 on November 02, 2018, 09:11:37 AM
Quote from: NESCAC43 on November 02, 2018, 08:55:34 AM
Haven't been on as much recently but have been catching some games. Watched Calvin play Hope this week and win 5-0. I usually try to contain myself with exaggerations but I really think Vegter has the ability to play professional soccer. I've seen some crazy good athletes come through D3 soccer and realize that they simply cannot play at the professional level. But this Vegter kid is amazing. Anyone else feel like he has the potential to get invited to/impress at the MLS combine and maybe get drafted?

Yes. There have been a number of very good defenders that have come through D3 in recent years, but Vegter is different class. The best I've seen in my eight or so years of following D3 soccer. He's a freak.

Glad I'm not the only one that thinks this! There have been some players mostly in the New England area that I've seen where I look at them and think, "Wow, this player is a great Division 3 soccer player and could be an All American." But never have I looked at a player and thought, "Hey, this kid could play in the MLS"...... until I watched Vegter 3-4 times this year. Granted I haven't seen him play in person yet, watching him play online does his style of play justice. The kid does not lose a tackle, is one of the smartest center backs I've seen in D3, and simply has the physique to play professionally. Would most likely have to move to outside back should he make it professionally.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 02, 2018, 11:22:27 AM
Quote from: NESCAC43 on November 02, 2018, 10:51:43 AM
Glad I'm not the only one that thinks this! There have been some players mostly in the New England area that I've seen where I look at them and think, "Wow, this player is a great Division 3 soccer player and could be an All American." But never have I looked at a player and thought, "Hey, this kid could play in the MLS"...... until I watched Vegter 3-4 times this year. Granted I haven't seen him play in person yet, watching him play online does his style of play justice. The kid does not lose a tackle, is one of the smartest center backs I've seen in D3, and simply has the physique to play professionally. Would most likely have to move to outside back should he make it professionally.

Exactly my thoughts. Conor Lanahan of Brandeis was an animal, particularly in 2014 and 2015, and Tufts had Sam Williams who was very good (Sullivan and Coleman obviously had very good years last year and the year before, respectively, but I rated Williams higher than both). All were very good D3 players and were D1-level talents in my view. But none of them were guys I'd think would be MLS-caliber. I think Vegter is.

Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 02, 2018, 10:35:40 AM
North Park has 16 American freshmen on the roster this year, 14 of which are from the Chicagoland area.

Did your favorite program bring in 16 American freshmen this year, 14 of them local, paclassic89?

Yeah, I thought so.

(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/53567119/oh-please-give-it-a-rest.jpg)

(I get that much has been made of North Park, and I can understand why NPU fans feel aggrieved, but this is long past its shelf life.)
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 02, 2018, 11:37:31 AM
I totally agree with you that the discussion of NPU men's soccer recruiting has long since passed the beating-a-dead-horse stage, blooter, and I'm more than happy to give it a rest. It'd suit me just fine if the topic never came up on d3boards anymore. But if someone is going to go out of his way to take a swipe at NPU from out of nowhere, then I'm going to respond with the facts.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 11:41:01 AM
Correction: C-M-S drew with Chapman last night and did not advance on PKs (5-4).  That leaves them at 14-2-1 with SoS probably bumped from .525 to .540ish and based on this week's RvR 2-0-0.  The latter could change if Occidental and/or Chapman lands in the final West rankings, and C-M-S was 1-1 with Oxy and 1-0-1 with Chapman.  I was going to say whimsical, but I'll say instead this is an example of how fluid and yet so influential these rankings can be.  C-M-S could end up with 3 or 4 ranked wins, with losing perhaps helping as Chapman might get ranked because of picking up a ranked win versus C-M-S.  That's the kind of counter-intuitive stuff that might decide a Pool C or not a Pool C, and there are examples like this in probably every region.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 02, 2018, 11:45:14 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 02, 2018, 11:37:31 AM
I totally agree with you that the discussion of NPU men's soccer recruiting has long since passed the beating-a-dead-horse stage, blooter, and I'm more than happy to give it a rest. It'd suit me just fine if the topic never came up on d3boards anymore. But if someone is going to go out of his way to take a swipe at NPU from out of nowhere, then I'm going to respond with the facts.

Fair enough.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 11:52:20 AM
A full report with facts would include number of non-American frosh, total roster size, total numbers American versus international, and number of starters and regular subs in each category.  16 by any measure is a large number but not quite as large as the impression might be, given a roster of 49 and without knowing who actually plays and who doesn't.  I point all that out as someone who doesn't have any objection with North Park, and who, as an aside, considers North Park a very serious contender to win the national title.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 02, 2018, 11:56:14 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 09:54:48 AM
C-M-S and Trinity (TX) are both on the low side on SoS AND ranked wins, but would one or both (if Trinity loses in their tourney) benefit from a little extra consideration (compared to their Midwest and East Coach brethren) so that the West gets 1-2 Pool Cs?  Is there a general view with as a whole region it is harder for the West do well on SoS and ranked wins on a comparative basis?

My observation from following various D3 sports as to how the so-called "island teams" (geographical isolates from the NWC, SCIAC, ASC, and SCAC) are handled for national tournament purposes is that they're only given special treatment in the bracketing process. In other words, the respective committees of those various sports don't give extra consideration to island teams; they keep the integrity of the selection process intact, and then bracket around the quirks of whatever field it is that they've put together.

The NCAA isn't so stingy as to tell those D3 committees that they only have, say, one flight allowed on opening weekend per sport. There is a little leeway in the budget for airline travel as necessary. They just try to keep the flights down to as low a number as possible.

The fact that men's soccer doesn't have a full bracket yet (i.e., it's only a 62-side field rather than 64) is something of a blessing for bracket construction, because you can always use one of the two byes for the West Coast if necessary, creating a three-pod consisting of the SCIAC autobid, the NWC autobid, and a Pool C. That typically skews seeding, but you can always make the argument that it's a tradeoff for the fact that a West Coast team is unlikely to ever host a sectional. (In men's basketball, for example, there's only been one sectional ever held on the West Coast in the two decades that D3 has used its current format in that sport.) And if you wind up with a field that doesn't have a Pool C squad from any of those four West Coast and Texas-based leagues, then you have a perfect fit for a four-pod.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 12:06:57 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 02, 2018, 11:56:14 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 09:54:48 AM
C-M-S and Trinity (TX) are both on the low side on SoS AND ranked wins, but would one or both (if Trinity loses in their tourney) benefit from a little extra consideration (compared to their Midwest and East Coach brethren) so that the West gets 1-2 Pool Cs?  Is there a general view with as a whole region it is harder for the West do well on SoS and ranked wins on a comparative basis?

My observation from following various D3 sports as to how the so-called "island teams" (geographical isolates from the NWC, SCIAC, ASC, and SCAC) are handled for national tournament purposes is that they're only given special treatment in the bracketing process. In other words, the respective committees of those various sports don't give extra consideration to island teams; they keep the integrity of the selection process intact, and then bracket around the quirks of whatever field it is that they've put together.

The NCAA isn't so stingy as to tell those D3 committees that they only have, say, one flight allowed on opening weekend per sport. There is a little leeway in the budget for airline travel as necessary. They just try to keep the flights down to as low a number as possible.

The fact that men's soccer doesn't have a full bracket yet (i.e., it's only a 62-side field rather than 64) is something of a blessing for bracket construction, because you can always use one of the two byes for the West Coast if necessary, creating a three-pod consisting of the SCIAC autobid, the NWC autobid, and a Pool C. That typically skews seeding, but you can always make the argument that it's a tradeoff for the fact that a West Coast team is unlikely to ever host a sectional. (In men's basketball, for example, there's only been one sectional ever held on the West Coast in the two decades that D3 has used its current format in that sport.) And if you wind up with a field that doesn't have a Pool C squad from any of those four West Coast and Texas-based leagues, then you have a perfect fit for a four-pod.

This is a good example of "what integrity is" not always being so clear.  If the West teams, by definition, are basically precluded from higher SoS's and a larger number of ranked wins, then how can they fairly be held to a standard where it's already known in advance that can't be met (without some additional and very expensive travel)?  I actually on a personal level don't want more West teams to get in because that could well keep my team out but in the bigger picture if I look at it as a neutral there seems to be a legit fairness issue.  I assume this is why Whitworth has made a recent habit of making a big East Coast trip at the beginning of the season.

And RE: the bolded above....is that an indication of the process working well or not well?  Honest question.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 02, 2018, 12:46:14 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 11:52:20 AM
A full report with facts would include number of non-American frosh, total roster size, total numbers American versus international, and number of starters and regular subs in each category.  16 by any measure is a large number but not quite as large as the impression might be, given a roster of 49 and without knowing who actually plays and who doesn't.  I point all that out as someone who doesn't have any objection with North Park, and who, as an aside, considers North Park a very serious contender to win the national title.

Fine. Here's what you're requesting (and then some), and I hope that this puts the subject to bed once and for all:

Total roster size: 53 (including one likely medical redshirt)
Varsity traveling roster: 25
Americans: 34
Internationals: 19

Starters:
Americans: 3
Internationals: 8

Regular subs:
Americans: 4
Internationals: 0

(Right now, the Vikings have an injured starter and an injured regular sub, and John Born has not added two more players to his rotation. Instead, on Wednesday he went with 4 American starters and 7 international starters, plus only two subs while the contest was still in doubt ... both of whom are American.)

When the Vikings have a secure lead, he tends to put in a secondary group of subs that consists of 5 Americans and 2 internationals.

Freshmen total: 29
Chicagoland freshmen: 14
Total American freshmen: 17
International freshmen: 12

(I originally miscounted the number of Americans. I probably counted the kid from Nebraska as a Norwegian. :D )

Among the freshmen, four are starters and two are regular subs. The four starters are all international players; the two regular subs are both Americans. And those two American freshmen subs accounted for three of NPU's six goals in the CCIW tournament semifinal on Wednesday.

Just for the record, NPU isn't even close to being the most international-dominated roster in D3. (http://www.ncwcsports.com/sports/msoc/2018-19/roster)
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: OldNed on November 02, 2018, 01:27:49 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 02, 2018, 12:46:14 PM

Just for the record, NPU isn't even close to being the most international-dominated roster in D3. (http://www.ncwcsports.com/sports/msoc/2018-19/roster)

Wow - thanks for that eye opening link.  60 players on that roster and it looks at first glance like 90% international.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on November 02, 2018, 02:04:08 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 09:47:47 AM
Random thoughts on a Friday morning....

On the West Coast last night, C-M-S and Redlands both lost their semis.  Redlands is probably out, but C-M-S might be scooping up another Pool C.  Pool C candidates will be hoping that Trinity (TX) doesn't falter.

Vegter is more of a career story but he belongs in the discussion of "story of the year" along with Nick West, Chewy Gordon, Joseph Fala, St. Joseph's, St. Norbert, Ramapo, maybe the Hope turnaround, etc.  Obviously all of these families got their kids playing soccer at a young age but there has to be a real genetic component as well....the Vegter brothers, Thompson brothers, Robbins brothers, West brothers, Wall brothers, etc, etc. 

Vegter reminds me of a kid that at U10 or U12 you put up top to start the game to get 3 goals, moved to midfield to help some other kids on the team score, moved to defense to shut down the other team, and then put in the goal to close it out.  I could definitely see him playing professional soccer.

More than I can recall from recent years past (although I may be wrong), this is the year when Pool C selections will be dominated by outsized focus on SoS and "ranked wins" with winning percentage the big "loser."

The UAA will get six teams in (AQ plus 5 Pool Cs)....OK, maybe five and 4 Pool Cs (but I think there is a good chance for Wash U if they get a win against Chicago).

Calvin will win the national title.

St. Joseph's (ME), assuming the Monks pull through with an AQ, will get to at least the Elite 8.

D3soccer.com "poster of the year," for the second consecutive year, goes to Mr.Right in a landslide.

I'm with you on the UAA getting 5 Pool C, IF WashU beats Chicago.   Other than that its Chicago/CWRU, Rochester, CMU, NYU

Chicago is my pick for the title.

St. Joseph's (ME), getting bounced in the first weekend having to face a team like Babson or NESCAC in the first round.   In reality, falls to a NESCAC school in round of 32, ending the 41 match unbeaten streak.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 02:07:22 PM
A diversion to picking on North Carolina Wesleyan?  Is the suggestion that NC Wesleyan is "really bad"?  Or that the even heavier international percentage is a really good thing?  Is a certain percentage laudable and beyond a certain point not?  Clearly the international component is vital to the relative success of both programs and I assume fits with some type of tradition for both schools.  There's nothing that needs to be minimized or to feel defensive about.  Some are going to have a negative reaction, especially in the current hysterical, strategically politicized, fear-mongering, trumped-up nationalist climate.  That's fine.  Everyone has their opinion and everyone gets a vote (metaphorical and/or real).  I am very familiar with that part of North Carolina, and I can attest that the NC Wesleyan soccer roster is a very good thing for that area.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 4samuy on November 02, 2018, 02:10:21 PM
International or not, All I know is that IMO, I wouldn't want to be a fan of a team and see North Park in my half of a bracket.  I'll be interested to see how they play against a Carthage team that has played pretty well as of late, but North Park is really good.  Very talented.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 02:10:39 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 02, 2018, 02:04:08 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 09:47:47 AM
Random thoughts on a Friday morning....

On the West Coast last night, C-M-S and Redlands both lost their semis.  Redlands is probably out, but C-M-S might be scooping up another Pool C.  Pool C candidates will be hoping that Trinity (TX) doesn't falter.

Vegter is more of a career story but he belongs in the discussion of "story of the year" along with Nick West, Chewy Gordon, Joseph Fala, St. Joseph's, St. Norbert, Ramapo, maybe the Hope turnaround, etc.  Obviously all of these families got their kids playing soccer at a young age but there has to be a real genetic component as well....the Vegter brothers, Thompson brothers, Robbins brothers, West brothers, Wall brothers, etc, etc. 

Vegter reminds me of a kid that at U10 or U12 you put up top to start the game to get 3 goals, moved to midfield to help some other kids on the team score, moved to defense to shut down the other team, and then put in the goal to close it out.  I could definitely see him playing professional soccer.

More than I can recall from recent years past (although I may be wrong), this is the year when Pool C selections will be dominated by outsized focus on SoS and "ranked wins" with winning percentage the big "loser."

The UAA will get six teams in (AQ plus 5 Pool Cs)....OK, maybe five and 4 Pool Cs (but I think there is a good chance for Wash U if they get a win against Chicago).

Calvin will win the national title.

St. Joseph's (ME), assuming the Monks pull through with an AQ, will get to at least the Elite 8.

D3soccer.com "poster of the year," for the second consecutive year, goes to Mr.Right in a landslide.

I'm with you on the UAA getting 5 Pool C, IF WashU beats Chicago.   Other than that its Chicago/CWRU, Rochester, CMU, NYU

Chicago is my pick for the title.

St. Joseph's (ME), getting bounced in the first weekend having to face a team like Babson or NESCAC in the first round.   In reality, falls to a NESCAC school in round of 32, ending the 41 match unbeaten streak.

You could be right.  Ironically 2 years ago they got by Babson in PKs and the last year did not advance on PKs versus Tufts.  They certainly won't be overwhelmed or intimidated by the stage.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TheGreenKnight920 on November 02, 2018, 02:11:16 PM
Quote from: OldNed on November 02, 2018, 01:27:49 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 02, 2018, 12:46:14 PM

Just for the record, NPU isn't even close to being the most international-dominated roster in D3. (http://www.ncwcsports.com/sports/msoc/2018-19/roster)

Wow - thanks for that eye opening link.  60 players on that roster and it looks at first glance like 90% international.

Might have found a roster to one up that...https://mecathletics.com/roster.aspx?path=msoc

Seems like a school that has a hard time recruiting for all sports, while trying to maintain the academic and social missions it has committed to. International players are certainly never a bad thing for any school or any sport.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 02:11:53 PM
Quote from: 4samuy on November 02, 2018, 02:10:21 PM
International or not, All I know is that IMO, I wouldn't want to be a fan of a team and see North Park in my half of a bracket.  I'll be interested to see how they play against a Carthage team that has played pretty well as of late, but North Park is really good.  Very talented.

Exactly.  And if I was Sager I'd be feeling mighty proud myself.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TheGreenKnight920 on November 02, 2018, 02:14:26 PM
St. Norbert wins 2-0 against Lake Forest to maintain their undefeated record and advance to the conference finals tomorrow. Not sure how familiar anyone on here is with this Green Knight squad, but I wouldn't want to face them come playoff time.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Bobcat1 on November 02, 2018, 02:16:14 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 09:47:47 AM
Random thoughts on a Friday morning....

On the West Coast last night, C-M-S and Redlands both lost their semis.  Redlands is probably out, but C-M-S might be scooping up another Pool C.  Pool C candidates will be hoping that Trinity (TX) doesn't falter.

Vegter is more of a career story but he belongs in the discussion of "story of the year" along with Nick West, Chewy Gordon, Joseph Fala, St. Joseph's, St. Norbert, Ramapo, maybe the Hope turnaround, etc.  Obviously all of these families got their kids playing soccer at a young age but there has to be a real genetic component as well....the Vegter brothers, Thompson brothers, Robbins brothers, West brothers, Wall brothers, etc, etc. 

Vegter reminds me of a kid that at U10 or U12 you put up top to start the game to get 3 goals, moved to midfield to help some other kids on the team score, moved to defense to shut down the other team, and then put in the goal to close it out.  I could definitely see him playing professional soccer.

More than I can recall from recent years past (although I may be wrong), this is the year when Pool C selections will be dominated by outsized focus on SoS and "ranked wins" with winning percentage the big "loser."

The UAA will get six teams in (AQ plus 5 Pool Cs)....OK, maybe five and 4 Pool Cs (but I think there is a good chance for Wash U if they get a win against Chicago).

Calvin will win the national title.

St. Joseph's (ME), assuming the Monks pull through with an AQ, will get to at least the Elite 8.

D3soccer.com "poster of the year," for the second consecutive year, goes to Mr.Right in a landslide.



Some interesting random thoughts. Calvin is as solid a pick as anyone to win it all. Last chance for Vegter, Witte, and McCaw. So close two years ago. I agree if WashU beats Chicago, UAA could get six teams.  NESCAC probably 4, maybe 5 depending on who wins the conference championship. Assuming St. Joe's gets past J&W it will be very interesting to see where they play the first two rounds. Depending on the outcomes this weekend, possibilities could include Amherst, Babson, Conn, Cortland, Tufts, SLU, others? I doubt they would go to Rochester, Messiah, or Montclair. Will be a likely tough second round draw for whoever hosts St. Joe's...
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 02, 2018, 02:40:20 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 09:47:47 AM
Random thoughts on a Friday morning....

On the West Coast last night, C-M-S and Redlands both lost their semis.  Redlands is probably out, but C-M-S might be scooping up another Pool C.  Pool C candidates will be hoping that Trinity (TX) doesn't falter.

Vegter is more of a career story but he belongs in the discussion of "story of the year" along with Nick West, Chewy Gordon, Joseph Fala, St. Joseph's, St. Norbert, Ramapo, maybe the Hope turnaround, etc.  Obviously all of these families got their kids playing soccer at a young age but there has to be a real genetic component as well....the Vegter brothers, Thompson brothers, Robbins brothers, West brothers, Wall brothers, etc, etc. 

Vegter reminds me of a kid that at U10 or U12 you put up top to start the game to get 3 goals, moved to midfield to help some other kids on the team score, moved to defense to shut down the other team, and then put in the goal to close it out.  I could definitely see him playing professional soccer.

More than I can recall from recent years past (although I may be wrong), this is the year when Pool C selections will be dominated by outsized focus on SoS and "ranked wins" with winning percentage the big "loser."

The UAA will get six teams in (AQ plus 5 Pool Cs)....OK, maybe five and 4 Pool Cs (but I think there is a good chance for Wash U if they get a win against Chicago).

Calvin will win the national title.

St. Joseph's (ME), assuming the Monks pull through with an AQ, will get to at least the Elite 8.

D3soccer.com "poster of the year," for the second consecutive year, goes to Mr.Right in a landslide.


Haha thanks....If I only figured out in my mid 20's that sobriety and good behavior went hand in hand.....Oh well I still had a blast...I would not count out Redlands just yet because of the usual West Coast "addition" to make the brackets work. I could see a scenario where both CMS and Redlands get in.

St.Joe's to the Elite 8 to me is a stretch unless they get a good draw which I doubt because of their ranking. Last year with the same record they got sent to Tufts for a Play-in game then Tufts and lets remember they did graduate a key player or two from that team. I think the kid up front from Rhode Island was pretty skilled and quick but I suppose its possible. I just am not sold they can score against good competition. I know they can defend and have a GK but can they score. Because of their geography I do not see how they get sent anywhere but New England maybe St.Lawrence but I doubt it. It would be a great story if they could make a run and honestly this is the year they need to do it because they have some key players that will be graduating. I am actually curious if J&W can give them a game in the GNAC Final. J&W Head Coach Dave Kulik played at Yale and then got fired at Clark but he knows enough of what he is doing to devise a plan and have his guys execute it.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 02:49:49 PM
Problem for Redlands is zero ranked wins and not even draws on RvR...ALTHOUGH if Occidental and/or Chapman end in final rankings then they could pick up 2-4 ranked wins, so again, shows just how much a profile can sway based on who ends up in the last spot or two of rankings.  Some teams are still living off of Ohio Northern hanging around in the last Great Lakes slot of rankings.  Redlands also had C-M-S, Trinity and Mary Hardin Baylor ahead of them in the West. 
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 02, 2018, 03:11:14 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 02:07:22 PM
A diversion to picking on North Carolina Wesleyan?  Is the suggestion that NC Wesleyan is "really bad"?  Or that the even heavier international percentage is a really good thing?  Is a certain percentage laudable and beyond a certain point not?  Clearly the international component is vital to the relative success of both programs and I assume fits with some type of tradition for both schools.  There's nothing that needs to be minimized or to feel defensive about.  Some are going to have a negative reaction, especially in the current hysterical, strategically politicized, fear-mongering, trumped-up nationalist climate.  That's fine.  Everyone has their opinion and everyone gets a vote (metaphorical and/or real).  I am very familiar with that part of North Carolina, and I can attest that the NC Wesleyan soccer roster is a very good thing for that area.

Sigh.

Really? We have to keep this thing going?

It wasn't a "diversion" at all. I said that I would like to see this subject closed, and I meant it. I figured that adding a bit of perspective might help in that regard. I see that I guessed incorrectly. :( That's on me, I suppose.

I have no opinion whatsoever regarding North Carolina Wesleyan's roster. I couldn't care less about it. Coach Taal could recruit his entire roster from Rocky Mount's five local high schools, or he could import 60 Martians to play for the Battling Bishops, for all that it matters to me. As I said, I simply put the NCWC link in my post for the sake of perspective.

I don't see any reason to inject politics into this, either. Personally, I come to d3boards.com to get away from politics.

I didn't put the bit about NCWC in there for you, since you had already said that you don't have any objection with NPU's roster. I put it in there for paclassic89, or for anybody else who has a beef with NPU's international players. That's what I meant by "just for the record."

Quote from: TheGreenKnight920 on November 02, 2018, 02:11:16 PM
Quote from: OldNed on November 02, 2018, 01:27:49 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 02, 2018, 12:46:14 PM

Just for the record, NPU isn't even close to being the most international-dominated roster in D3. (http://www.ncwcsports.com/sports/msoc/2018-19/roster)

Wow - thanks for that eye opening link.  60 players on that roster and it looks at first glance like 90% international.

Might have found a roster to one up that...https://mecathletics.com/roster.aspx?path=msoc

Seems like a school that has a hard time recruiting for all sports, while trying to maintain the academic and social missions it has committed to. International players are certainly never a bad thing for any school or any sport.

Yes, very much so. And it also makes sense for Medgar Evers, which (like NPU) is located in a mega-city, to have a large international presence on its men's soccer squad.

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 02:11:53 PM
Quote from: 4samuy on November 02, 2018, 02:10:21 PM
International or not, All I know is that IMO, I wouldn't want to be a fan of a team and see North Park in my half of a bracket.  I'll be interested to see how they play against a Carthage team that has played pretty well as of late, but North Park is really good.  Very talented.

Exactly.  And if I was Sager I'd be feeling mighty proud myself.

Trust me, I am. ;) It's just that I read paclassic89's post this morning and did a Pacino:

(https://www.d3boards.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi0.wp.com%2Fauntiebeak.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F06%2Fout.jpg%3Fresize%3D359%252C272&hash=02cf2c882dc49daba05d0da4850a05c1d45028f7)
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 02, 2018, 03:52:45 PM
That NC Wesleyan roster looks like a Football roster. That is some crazy stuff. Interesting the Coaching staff is also international. NOTE: The Head Coach is a former player at Bethany(WV) but not sure if he was on the team when they made their incredible run in 1994 to Win the National Championship. Interesting that Bethany(WV) had like a 4 year stretch of some good teams including IIRC an Elite 8 in 1996 but then they either lost to eventual winner TCNJ or Ithaca. Cannot quite remember but I am curious now as to why the program fell so hard and so quick after that 3-4 year run. It did seem they came out of nowhere in 1994 and then just like that vanished after 1997. Either way the Head Coach at NC Wesleyan was on those Bethany sides....
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 03:54:37 PM
A few good games tonight....before a huge day tomorrow.

6:00 -- A Lone Star shootout between East Texas Baptist and Texas-Dallas

7:00 -- The aforementioned Battling Bishops of NC Wesleyan versus Maryville (TN); Berry versus Oglethorpe; Ohio Northern versus Capital; and the main event, Ramapo @ Montclair State
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 03:55:43 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 02, 2018, 03:52:45 PM
That NC Wesleyan roster looks like a Football roster. That is some crazy stuff. Interesting the Coaching staff is also international. NOTE: The Head Coach is a former player at Bethany(WV) but not sure if he was on the team when they made their incredible run in 1994 to Win the National Championship. Interesting that Bethany(WV) had like a 4 year stretch of some good teams including IIRC an Elite 8 in 1996 but then they either lost to eventual winner TCNJ or Ithaca. Cannot quite remember but I am curious now as to why the program fell so hard and so quick after that 3-4 year run. It did seem they came out of nowhere in 1994 and then just like that vanished after 1997. Either way the Head Coach at NC Wesleyan was on those Bethany sides....

Yes, he was part of the '94 squad.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 04:01:39 PM
Any predictions on whether Ramapo versus MSU will be a 1-0 or 2-1 affair or more like a 5-4 shootout?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on November 02, 2018, 04:20:09 PM

I think Ramapo is better than MSU and will win the game... not so sure of a scoreline, though.   I'll go 2-1 Ramapo.

Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 02, 2018, 04:47:08 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 03:54:37 PM
A few good games tonight....before a huge day tomorrow.

6:00 -- A Lone Star shootout between East Texas Baptist and Texas-Dallas

7:00 -- The aforementioned Battling Bishops of NC Wesleyan versus Maryville (TN); Berry versus Oglethorpe; Ohio Northern versus Capital; and the main event, Ramapo @ Montclair State

I'm tempted to watch ONU @ Capital just to see Chewy Gordon play.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 02, 2018, 06:29:55 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 12:06:57 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 02, 2018, 11:56:14 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 09:54:48 AM
C-M-S and Trinity (TX) are both on the low side on SoS AND ranked wins, but would one or both (if Trinity loses in their tourney) benefit from a little extra consideration (compared to their Midwest and East Coach brethren) so that the West gets 1-2 Pool Cs?  Is there a general view with as a whole region it is harder for the West do well on SoS and ranked wins on a comparative basis?

My observation from following various D3 sports as to how the so-called "island teams" (geographical isolates from the NWC, SCIAC, ASC, and SCAC) are handled for national tournament purposes is that they're only given special treatment in the bracketing process. In other words, the respective committees of those various sports don't give extra consideration to island teams; they keep the integrity of the selection process intact, and then bracket around the quirks of whatever field it is that they've put together.

The NCAA isn't so stingy as to tell those D3 committees that they only have, say, one flight allowed on opening weekend per sport. There is a little leeway in the budget for airline travel as necessary. They just try to keep the flights down to as low a number as possible.

The fact that men's soccer doesn't have a full bracket yet (i.e., it's only a 62-side field rather than 64) is something of a blessing for bracket construction, because you can always use one of the two byes for the West Coast if necessary, creating a three-pod consisting of the SCIAC autobid, the NWC autobid, and a Pool C. That typically skews seeding, but you can always make the argument that it's a tradeoff for the fact that a West Coast team is unlikely to ever host a sectional. (In men's basketball, for example, there's only been one sectional ever held on the West Coast in the two decades that D3 has used its current format in that sport.) And if you wind up with a field that doesn't have a Pool C squad from any of those four West Coast and Texas-based leagues, then you have a perfect fit for a four-pod.

This is a good example of "what integrity is" not always being so clear.  If the West teams, by definition, are basically precluded from higher SoS's and a larger number of ranked wins, then how can they fairly be held to a standard where it's already known in advance that can't be met (without some additional and very expensive travel)?

The West Region's members aren't precluded from higher SoS's and a larger number of ranked wins by definition. They're precluded from higher SoS's and a larger number of ranked wins because the four leagues that make up the region (NWC, SCIAC, ASC, and SCAC) all play double round-robins, in stark contrast to the single round-robin or not-even-a-full-single-round-robin that most D3 leagues employ for men's soccer. When the vast majority of your matches are played within the league, everyone naturally gravitates closer to .500 SoS -- and it also reduces your flexibility in scheduling non-conference matches, thereby reducing your chances of playing RRO.

I'm not blaming those four leagues for doing that. It's much tougher for the so-called "island schools" (geographical outliers to D3, including the schools in Texas, Colorado, Washington, Oregon, and California that make up the West Region) to schedule non-conference contests in men's soccer, so using a double round-robin saves them the trouble of having to try.

This is not as much of an issue in other sports as it is for men's soccer and women's soccer, because winter and spring sports see lots of D3 teams from northern climes travel southward for so-called snowbird trips, both as a recruiting tool over winter break (men's and women's basketball) and as a necessity due to outdoor conditions in March (baseball and softball). And it's not so much of an issue in football, which has a pretty small number of Pool C bids to hand out, anyway. But in soccer, the time of the season when most non-con matches are held (September and early October) is the opportune time to schedule home matches or to play locally, rather than fly to southern California or to Texas.

But note that in the other sports vis-a-vis the island schools, it's the rest of D3 that comes to them. In men's and women's soccer, it's the other way around; the burden is upon the island schools to go to the rest of D3. The means are there for the island schools in the West Region to cover their non-con quota in a single round-robin situation, but, unless they're willing to schedule NAIA schools to pick up whatever extra matches can't be normally filled (which, of course, assumes that the NAIA schools would be willing to play them), it would mean doling out the extra bucks for some flights. And, of course, it's always easy to talk about spending somebody else's money. ;)

Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 12:06:57 PMI actually on a personal level don't want more West teams to get in because that could well keep my team out but in the bigger picture if I look at it as a neutral there seems to be a legit fairness issue.  I assume this is why Whitworth has made a recent habit of making a big East Coast trip at the beginning of the season.

And RE: the bolded above....is that an indication of the process working well or not well?  Honest question.

There are tradeoffs involved. It's much harder for a West Coast team to get to host a sectional; but, on the other hand, they get more byes than they generally deserve in sports that don't have full 64-team brackets (although men's soccer committees have managed to avoid that contingency in recent seasons), and they don't tend to be offered up as sacrificial lambs on the opening nights of tourneys, which is what would happen in some sports, because more often than not their opponent seeding load is lighter than it is for the schools in more D3-populated areas of the country that can be seeded properly.

In terms of integrity and fairness, I think that D3's national committees are doing the best that they can with the budget with which they have to work -- which is definitely constrained to a certain degree. D1 makes all of the money for the NCAA (well, two D1 sports make all of the money for the NCAA), and he who pays the piper calls the tune. D3 really isn't a position to complain about having only a limited number of flights available for each sport's national tournament.

I guess that I would say that the process is as fair as it can be, under the circumstances.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 07:01:02 PM
That was pretty dense.  Let me simplify my question to make sure I'm following.

IF the West Coast schools didn't do double round-robins AND did not have the resources for significant extra travel during the regular season (as compared to what we're used to in the East and Midwest), are you saying they could get on a level playing field in terms of access to SoS and RvR?  Or are you acknowledging that they would still be at a disadvantage?  I also think some of us on the East Coast have a distorted view of how close or far away those schools are from each other.....Oxy to Whitman is a hike.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 02, 2018, 08:31:07 PM
It depends upon how creative they're willing, or able, to be. For example, there's the NAIA option that I mentioned. The Pacific Northwest has the Cascade Collegiate Conference (12 teams), while the SCIAC has geographical proximity to the CalPac (12 teams) and the Golden State Athletic Conference (10 teams). Playing NAIA sides wouldn't count towards the criteria, of course, but it would eliminate the leveling tendencies of a double round-robin. I don't know how those two leagues, or their three NAIA neighbors, feel about D3/NAIA crossover play in men's soccer. I know that they don't typically play much in other sports, but, given the unique calendar-and-climate-based problems facing men's and women's soccer that I mentioned, perhaps they could make an exception for those two sports.

Then there's the possibility of squeezing multiple matches into road trips by, say, flying in for a Friday contest and then busing to a Saturday match at one of Friday's opponent's league rivals. You could even cut out the bus travel by setting up classic-style tourneys in which two NWC sides would play two SCIAC sides at the same site on a Friday, and then they'd alternate the crossover on Saturday.

The problem is lessened for the SCAC and ASC, because those two leagues share the same geographical footprint, allowing for more crossover than those two leagues currently employ. In fact, those two leagues could completely cover their non-con responsibilities between them. (I think that I said that the ASC plays a double round-robin; it's actually a single round-robin, but, since the league is so huge, the league schedule still eats up two-thirds of the overall sked.) As you pointed out by citing Oxy and Whitman, the SCIAC and the NWC are nowhere near each other, so the real criteria-related problem lies with the two West Coast leagues.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 02, 2018, 09:22:04 PM
Ohio Northern knocked off Capital in double OT, 2-1.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 02, 2018, 11:08:48 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 02, 2018, 07:01:02 PM
That was pretty dense.  Let me simplify my question to make sure I'm following.

IF the West Coast schools didn't do double round-robins AND did not have the resources for significant extra travel during the regular season (as compared to what we're used to in the East and Midwest), are you saying they could get on a level playing field in terms of access to SoS and RvR?  Or are you acknowledging that they would still be at a disadvantage?  I also think some of us on the East Coast have a distorted view of how close or far away those schools are from each other.....Oxy to Whitman is a hike.

I'd argue, depending on how creative they want to be with the travel, they could raise their SOS and the vRRO. The double-round robin makes bring an SOS up far more difficult and unless a huge chunk of teams in the conference ranked, they aren't benefiting from it.

And yes, I am amazed how many people don't realize the trips from the center of the country westward are FAR more lengthy than many realize.

Oxy to Whitman, as you used, is comparable as Emory to Babson .. mileage and travel time. In the right-hand third of the country (with some exceptions), you can't hit an interstate exit without tripping over colleges.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on November 03, 2018, 07:47:40 AM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 02, 2018, 04:20:09 PM

I think Ramapo is better than MSU and will win the game... not so sure of a scoreline, though.   I'll go 2-1 Ramapo.

Wow MSU destroyed Ramapo 5-0. What happened? When Messiah played MSU early season it was not close. Messiah handled them easily. It looks like since then MSU has gotten better throughout the season. They made a statement with this win for sure.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 03, 2018, 10:12:23 AM
Well you can see for yourself what happened in these highlights for MSU and the lowlights for Ramapo....

The first 3 Goals look to be defensive breakdowns and poor GK'ing...4th Goal was a beauty and the 5th was a PK. MSU with a huge statement game and I forgot what a nice stream they have. They will be hosting a pod or two. Ramapo needs to really clean up their defense and I am hoping the GK just had a bad game because if that is how he plays normally Ramapo will be exiting the NCAA's rather quickly. Ramapo will still be a NCAA Pool C.



https://montclairathletics.com/news/2018/11/2/champions-no-7-mens-soccer-claims-njac-title.aspx


Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 03, 2018, 10:15:24 AM
BTW looking at MSU's non-conference schedule besides Oneonta and Messiah they played maybe 6 cupcakes spread between their NJAC schedule and Messiah and Oneonta. That is a joke compared to some of the other NJAC's but I have noticed in recent years that more and more NJAC teams are playing 1 or 2 very solid non-conference matches and then scheduling about 5-6 cupcakes. Kean might be the worst offender of them all.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ommadawn on November 03, 2018, 01:03:49 PM
In a game with Pool C implications, SLU is playing a man down to Hobart with the game tied 2-2 heading into the first OT.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on November 03, 2018, 01:31:31 PM
Nice goal by SLU! Saints are in the final.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 03, 2018, 01:34:55 PM
Quote from: Ommadawn on November 03, 2018, 01:03:49 PM
In a game with Pool C implications, SLU is playing a man down to Hobart with the game tied 2-2 heading into the first OT.

Who got the red? Straight Red r 2 Yellows?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ommadawn on November 03, 2018, 01:50:32 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 03, 2018, 01:34:55 PM
Quote from: Ommadawn on November 03, 2018, 01:03:49 PM
In a game with Pool C implications, SLU is playing a man down to Hobart with the game tied 2-2 heading into the first OT.

Who got the red? Straight Red r 2 Yellows?

With multiple screens going :), I was late to the play.  But it was straight red for Crouse according to the play-by-play.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: stlawus on November 03, 2018, 01:53:26 PM
It was a straight red card.  Crouse was trying to connect on a cross and slid studs up into the keeper.  On a normal day he probably wouldn't have slid like that but the slick field conditions propelled him Sol Campbell style right into the keeper.  Unlucky but the right call.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 03, 2018, 02:35:47 PM
Cortland losing 2-0 with 15 minutes left in 2nd Half to Brockport so there goes another Pool C.

Springfield and Babson 0-0 late 2nd Half.

Some good news for bubble teams is:

Mary Washington leading 1-0 in the 2nd Half on St.Mary's

Trinity TX defeated Texas Lutheran in OT in what I think was a Semi-Final.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 03, 2018, 02:49:03 PM
Springfield defeats Babson in unbelievable fashion to secure their 2nd straight NEWMAC title and there goes another Pool C as Babson certainly will get a bid.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 03, 2018, 02:51:10 PM
Jeez...After just sneaking by Wabash midweek Kenyon rips apart OWU 4-0 to secure their NCAA berth and keep bubble teams alive. Jay Martin at OWU has to be over 70 years old and it might be time to get some new blood into the program. He does not seem like he wants to give up the reins though.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3bandwagon on November 03, 2018, 02:51:25 PM
With so many Pool C bids who do you think will be the last four in and first four out? Do teams like Capital or Hope have a chance of squeezing in?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 03, 2018, 02:58:12 PM
Quote from: D3bandwagon on November 03, 2018, 02:51:25 PM
With so many Pool C bids who do you think will be the last four in and first four out? Do teams like Capital or Hope have a chance of squeezing in?

That cannot be answered realistically until tomorrow night as there are to many games still to be played with serious consequence.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 03, 2018, 04:16:18 PM
Pool Cs so far....

Tufts
CWRU
Cortland St
Rochester
Conn College
Johns Hopkins
Carnegie Mellon
Ramapo
NYU
Amherst
Babson
Haverford/F&M

That's 12....7 left....

Now what happens with John Carroll, Williams, Messiah, SLU, Trinity, Luther, North Park, Oglethorpe with AQs....Claremont-Mudd Scripps?  Hope?  St Thomas?  Midd?  Capital?  Lycoming?  Capital?  GAC?  Carleton?  Rowan/Will Paterson?  Dickinson?  New Paltz/Oneonta?

Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TheGreenKnight920 on November 03, 2018, 05:03:20 PM
Previously unbeaten SNC falls 2-1 in conference final to Knox...I'm sure the committee would love to have some 5 loss UAA team in over them, which is an absolute shame and a real testament to how subjectivity in any selection process is utterly ridiculous when you have metrics other than SOS.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 03, 2018, 05:22:10 PM
Quote from: TheGreenKnight920 on November 03, 2018, 05:03:20 PM
Previously unbeaten SNC falls 2-1 in conference final to Knox...I'm sure the committee would love to have some 5 loss UAA team in over them, which is an absolute shame and a real testament to how subjectivity in any selection process is utterly ridiculous when you have metrics other than SOS.

Don't give up all hope just yet.  SNC should get a decent SoS bump to maybe .535ish, and have RvR of 2-0, and if somehow Knox gets ranked (not sure of their SoS) but they now have several ranked wins and a good record as well, then SNC would have a RvR of 3-1.  Their problem right now isn't the UAA teams.  They need to jump GAC and another 1-2 ranked North teams.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on November 03, 2018, 05:30:46 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2018, 04:16:18 PM
Pool Cs so far....

Tufts
CWRU
Cortland St
Rochester
Conn College
Johns Hopkins
Carnegie Mellon
Ramapo
NYU
Amherst
Babson
Haverford/F&M

That's 12....7 left....

Now what happens with John Carroll, Williams, Messiah, SLU, Trinity, Luther, North Park, Oglethorpe with AQs....Claremont-Mudd Scripps?  Hope?  St Thomas?  Midd?  Capital?  Lycoming?  Capital?  GAC?  Carleton?  Rowan/Will Paterson?  Dickinson?  New Paltz/Oneonta?

-I feel that Dickinson needed one more win
-I think Babson Or Midd is a coin flip.  Only one gets in
-JC If AQ, Capital just misses out.
-CMS will slip in rankings, SOS way too low, outside of bubble
-Rowan/WPU both 7 loss teams; Camden a 5 loss team that beat NYU and tied Ramapo.  If a third from NJAC, it's them. 
-Lyco is win or bust
-I give Oneonta a chance over New Paltz, both on outside of bubble
-Hope could be done if SOS is around.535

Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 03, 2018, 05:39:58 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 03, 2018, 05:30:46 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2018, 04:16:18 PM
Pool Cs so far....

Tufts
CWRU
Cortland St
Rochester
Conn College
Johns Hopkins
Carnegie Mellon
Ramapo
NYU
Amherst
Babson
Haverford/F&M

That's 12....7 left....

Now what happens with John Carroll, Williams, Messiah, SLU, Trinity, Luther, North Park, Oglethorpe with AQs....Claremont-Mudd Scripps?  Hope?  St Thomas?  Midd?  Capital?  Lycoming?  Capital?  GAC?  Carleton?  Rowan/Will Paterson?  Dickinson?  New Paltz/Oneonta?

-I feel that Dickinson needed one more win
-I think Babson Or Midd is a coin flip.  Only one gets in
-CMS will slip in rankings, SOS way too low, outside of bubble
-Rowan/WPU both 7 loss teams; Camden a 5 loss team that beat NYU and tied Ramapo.  If a third from NJAC, it's them
-Lyco is win or bust
-I give Oneonta a chance over New Paltz, both on outside of bubble
-Hope could be done if SOS is around.535

But in theory there's got to be a reason to push RUC above those teams, since they already were below on the same criteria.  Same with Hope.  They already were at #3 in Central and there's not much data to drop them lower except that North Park (closing in on an AQ as just went ahead 2-1) might jump them.  I don't see New Paltz or Oneonta getting in.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on November 03, 2018, 05:40:57 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2018, 05:22:10 PM
Quote from: TheGreenKnight920 on November 03, 2018, 05:03:20 PM
Previously unbeaten SNC falls 2-1 in conference final to Knox...I'm sure the committee would love to have some 5 loss UAA team in over them, which is an absolute shame and a real testament to how subjectivity in any selection process is utterly ridiculous when you have metrics other than SOS.

Don't give up all hope just yet.  SNC should get a decent SoS bump to maybe .535ish, and have RvR of 2-0, and if somehow Knox gets ranked (not sure of their SoS) but they now have several ranked wins and a good record as well, then SNC would have a RvR of 3-1.  Their problem right now isn't the UAA teams.  They need to jump GAC and another 1-2 ranked North teams.

SNC with an SOS around.520 at best...   Both Lake Forest and Knox had SOS under.500

The harsh reality, SNC bubble has burst
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TheGreenKnight920 on November 03, 2018, 05:42:43 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2018, 05:22:10 PM
Quote from: TheGreenKnight920 on November 03, 2018, 05:03:20 PM
Previously unbeaten SNC falls 2-1 in conference final to Knox...I'm sure the committee would love to have some 5 loss UAA team in over them, which is an absolute shame and a real testament to how subjectivity in any selection process is utterly ridiculous when you have metrics other than SOS.

Don't give up all hope just yet.  SNC should get a decent SoS bump to maybe .535ish, and have RvR of 2-0, and if somehow Knox gets ranked (not sure of their SoS) but they now have several ranked wins and a good record as well, then SNC would have a RvR of 3-1.  Their problem right now isn't the UAA teams.  They need to jump GAC and another 1-2 ranked North teams.

I used UAA more as a general example, in this case. You look at the other Pool C bids that are "clinched," and its middle/lower pack (in terms of standings) NESCAC, CC, UAA, etc... teams that are getting them without a second thought, which is absurd. SNC will likely drop out of regional rankings after this (as they were 6th out of 7 as of Wednesday), essentially because they don't have name recognition/pedigree/conference affiliation...tell me I'm wrong. At what point will the NCAA stop rewarding losses?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on November 03, 2018, 05:43:38 PM
The reason to push RUC over Rowan and WPU is that both picked up their 7th loss the final week.    I think RUC jumps both of them final ranking.   I put Camden, Hope, Capital in that 17-21 range
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TheGreenKnight920 on November 03, 2018, 05:46:59 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 03, 2018, 05:43:38 PM
The reason to push RUC over Rowan and WPU is that both picked up their 7th loss the final week.    I think RUC jumps both of them final ranking.   I put Camden, Hope, Capital in that 17-21 range

The fact that a 7 loss team is even seriously included in the discussion just shows how cartoonish this whole process is. I don't really have a dog in the fight, but I'm really pulling for St. Joes to win the AQ so they don't suffer the same fate as my Knights, being a one-loss team left out in favor of teams with "quality losses."
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 03, 2018, 05:48:21 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 03, 2018, 05:43:38 PM
The reason to push RUC over Rowan and WPU is that both picked up their 7th loss the final week.    I think RUC jumps both of them final ranking.   I put Camden, Hope, Capital in that 17-21 range

Yeah, I must admit I don't understand the SA rankings at all.  Oglethorpe looks soft to me at #4 with what will be a .550-560ish SoS and only 1 ranked win.  And I give Centre a decent shot to get the AQ.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 03, 2018, 05:49:42 PM
Hold on....Carthage just drew even 2-2 with North Park late in 2nd.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 03, 2018, 05:50:42 PM
Now 3-2 Carthage.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on November 03, 2018, 05:51:20 PM
Hope would get in over NP
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blue_jays on November 03, 2018, 08:41:25 PM
Quote from: TheGreenKnight920 on November 03, 2018, 05:42:43 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2018, 05:22:10 PM
Quote from: TheGreenKnight920 on November 03, 2018, 05:03:20 PM
Previously unbeaten SNC falls 2-1 in conference final to Knox...I'm sure the committee would love to have some 5 loss UAA team in over them, which is an absolute shame and a real testament to how subjectivity in any selection process is utterly ridiculous when you have metrics other than SOS.

Don't give up all hope just yet.  SNC should get a decent SoS bump to maybe .535ish, and have RvR of 2-0, and if somehow Knox gets ranked (not sure of their SoS) but they now have several ranked wins and a good record as well, then SNC would have a RvR of 3-1.  Their problem right now isn't the UAA teams.  They need to jump GAC and another 1-2 ranked North teams.

I used UAA more as a general example, in this case. You look at the other Pool C bids that are "clinched," and its middle/lower pack (in terms of standings) NESCAC, CC, UAA, etc... teams that are getting them without a second thought, which is absurd. SNC will likely drop out of regional rankings after this (as they were 6th out of 7 as of Wednesday), essentially because they don't have name recognition/pedigree/conference affiliation...tell me I'm wrong. At what point will the NCAA stop rewarding losses?

End of the day, you gotta play better teams. The resume of wins isn't strong, regardless of how many you have. If you look at SOS, the UAA is all over the top 10 hardest schedules in the country. Chicago played seven teams this year that ranked in the top 20 in the country at the time of the game, for example.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on November 03, 2018, 09:10:04 PM
Quote from: blue_jays on November 03, 2018, 08:41:25 PM
End of the day, you gotta play better teams. The resume of wins isn't strong, regardless of how many you have. If you look at SOS, the UAA is all over the top 10 hardest schedules in the country. Chicago played seven teams this year that ranked in the top 20 in the country at the time of the game, for example.

Emory played 8 ranked opponents, and lost 6 of those games, yet we're still talking about them as a possible C birth.  At some point, SOS becomes useless if you can't actually win games.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TheGreenKnight920 on November 03, 2018, 09:33:06 PM
Quote from: blue_jays on November 03, 2018, 08:41:25 PM
Quote from: TheGreenKnight920 on November 03, 2018, 05:42:43 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 03, 2018, 05:22:10 PM
Quote from: TheGreenKnight920 on November 03, 2018, 05:03:20 PM
Previously unbeaten SNC falls 2-1 in conference final to Knox...I'm sure the committee would love to have some 5 loss UAA team in over them, which is an absolute shame and a real testament to how subjectivity in any selection process is utterly ridiculous when you have metrics other than SOS.

Don't give up all hope just yet.  SNC should get a decent SoS bump to maybe .535ish, and have RvR of 2-0, and if somehow Knox gets ranked (not sure of their SoS) but they now have several ranked wins and a good record as well, then SNC would have a RvR of 3-1.  Their problem right now isn't the UAA teams.  They need to jump GAC and another 1-2 ranked North teams.

I used UAA more as a general example, in this case. You look at the other Pool C bids that are "clinched," and its middle/lower pack (in terms of standings) NESCAC, CC, UAA, etc... teams that are getting them without a second thought, which is absurd. SNC will likely drop out of regional rankings after this (as they were 6th out of 7 as of Wednesday), essentially because they don't have name recognition/pedigree/conference affiliation...tell me I'm wrong. At what point will the NCAA stop rewarding losses?

End of the day, you gotta play better teams. The resume of wins isn't strong, regardless of how many you have. If you look at SOS, the UAA is all over the top 10 hardest schedules in the country. Chicago played seven teams this year that ranked in the top 20 in the country at the time of the game, for example.


Your strength of schedule is not wholly within your control, though. You are locked in to conference games, and if you have the misfortune of playing a generally weak conference, you miss out on "quality" games. Travel and budget restrictions also prohibit a team from playing the exact schedule they might want. End of the day, this selection process is essentially political, rather than analytical. SOS is the most overrated metric there is, simply because it is beyond the control of the team...Head to Head is not even considered in regional rankings, yet is possibly the strongest determinant in assessing a team (when applicable), for example, St. Norbert BEAT Platteville earlier this season, remained unbeaten until today, and yet were BEHIND Platteville in the regional rankings. Again, losses should not be rewarded. You could argue that SNC's resume would look better committee wise if they somehow were able to concoct a non-conference slate that was composed of "top teams," and even if they got rolled in, say, 4 of 6 of these hypothetical games, those losses would "look better." Quality losses should not be a thing, bottom line.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TheGreenKnight920 on November 03, 2018, 09:37:44 PM
Quote from: 2319 on November 03, 2018, 09:10:04 PM
Quote from: blue_jays on November 03, 2018, 08:41:25 PM
End of the day, you gotta play better teams. The resume of wins isn't strong, regardless of how many you have. If you look at SOS, the UAA is all over the top 10 hardest schedules in the country. Chicago played seven teams this year that ranked in the top 20 in the country at the time of the game, for example.

Emory played 8 ranked opponents, and lost 6 of those games, yet we're still talking about them as a possible C birth.  At some point, SOS becomes useless if you can't actually win games.

We've already reached the point of SOS being useless. A loss tomorrow for St. Joes puts them on the wrong side of the bubble, despite winning 20 in a row and only allowing one goal all season, only for them to be replaced by a WP/Rowan/Babson etc... Its hard to construct a good schedule quality-wise if you're not within reasonable travel distance from other good teams, which inherently favors teams which are clustered around one another and/or have the funds to travel greater distances, essentially making money a factor, by proxy, as well.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 04, 2018, 08:20:41 AM
I am predicting Lycoming makes the tournament.....and expect Lyco to jump Dickinson and Eastern (Eastern won AQ so doesn't matter much).....Lyco's SoS will jump to .560+ after games with Leb Valley and Messiah and RvR now at a more competitive 2-2-1.

John Carroll saved a Pool C for others by prevailing in PKs versus a surprising Ohio Northern squad.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on November 04, 2018, 08:50:06 AM
I would think Capital gets in over Lyco, but both are in a bubble of say 6-7 teams where only 3 get in. 

The draw helps Lyco, but I dont think they jump Dickinson.   

I'd expect one upset today to eat up another Pool C. 

Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 04, 2018, 09:37:39 AM
I think Lyco does jump Dickinson and fairly easily with a much better winning %, rising SoS and 2-2 on RvR versus 2-5-1 for Dickinson.

Also realized there is very good chance OWU jumps Mt. Union and Capital, and the PKs for JCU and SoS bump from Kenyon could save the day yet again for OWU.  Capital drops to 2-4 on RvR and lost H2H to OWU and OWU RvR moves to 2-3-2 because Wash U got ranked.  The question is whether GL gets 2 Pool Cs or 3, and I'm going to bet 3.

Here's 5 different teams....and a good idea about what they will be deciding between....

Team A -- 10-3-3//.570//3-3-1

Team B -- 13-4-2//.570//2-3-2

Team C -- 14-2-1//.540//2-0-1 or 3-1-1

Team D -- 16-3//.535//2-2

Team E -- 13-5-2//.590//2-4-1

Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 04, 2018, 09:55:52 AM
I think C-M-S is in....SoS bump to maybe .540ish and 3-4 ranked wins versus 1 or 0 losses.  They pick up another ranked win with Macalester cracking North this week.

And even though I've hardly thought of them this year, the more I look at St. Thomas' profile the more I think they are in good shape with GAC on the bubble or just on wrong side of bubble.

Correction:  St. Thomas may have a RvR issue unless Augsburg comes back in and with Macalester coming in this week.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 04, 2018, 10:25:41 AM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 04, 2018, 08:50:06 AM
I would think Capital gets in over Lyco, but both are in a bubble of say 6-7 teams where only 3 get in. 

The draw helps Lyco, but I dont think they jump Dickinson.   

I'd expect one upset today to eat up another Pool C.

I think Lycoming will get a Pool C berth after last nights result vs Messiah. They will easily jump Dickinson as Dickinson now has 8 blemishes including 6 losses and is looking at a 1-5-1 RvR. That doesn't compare to what Lyco has done and they will surely swap spots. Lycoming could potentially jump Haverford if they lose today as well, but that would be up for more debate than Lyco and Dickinson.

There are some conference finals today that will help shape the Pool C landscape a little better so I will not make any guesses until this evening for who my Pool C selections are.  ;D
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 04, 2018, 12:56:36 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 04, 2018, 09:55:52 AM
I think C-M-S is in....SoS bump to maybe .540ish and 3-4 ranked wins versus 1 or 0 losses.  They pick up another ranked win with Macalester cracking North this week.

And even though I've hardly thought of them this year, the more I look at St. Thomas' profile the more I think they are in good shape with GAC on the bubble or just on wrong side of bubble.

Correction:  St. Thomas may have a RvR issue unless Augsburg comes back in and with Macalester coming in this week.


I think CMS is in as well but Redlands probably out especially if Mary-Hardin Baylor loses in its Championship today. Also, Southwestern is plenty capable of upsetting Trinity TX today so that could throw everything in the air. If Trinity TX and M-H Baylor both get upset you could see 3 West teams get Pool C bids.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: gustiefan04 on November 04, 2018, 01:35:08 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 04, 2018, 09:55:52 AM
I think C-M-S is in....SoS bump to maybe .540ish and 3-4 ranked wins versus 1 or 0 losses.  They pick up another ranked win with Macalester cracking North this week.

And even though I've hardly thought of them this year, the more I look at St. Thomas' profile the more I think they are in good shape with GAC on the bubble or just on wrong side of bubble.

Correction:  St. Thomas may have a RvR issue unless Augsburg comes back in and with Macalester coming in this week.

Luther and Carleton getting the AQ and UWP the likely pool B selection bodes very well  for a second and maybe even a third selection from the MIAC, with so many teams from the conference in the NCAA regional rankings for the north region. St Thomas, GAC and maybe even Augsburg (if they get into the final ranking) are the potential recipients of a pool C in the north.

I suspect St Norbert's, Macalester and any other team from the ARC (like loras) are out.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 04, 2018, 01:42:29 PM
Quote from: gustiefan04 on November 04, 2018, 01:35:08 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 04, 2018, 09:55:52 AM
I think C-M-S is in....SoS bump to maybe .540ish and 3-4 ranked wins versus 1 or 0 losses.  They pick up another ranked win with Macalester cracking North this week.

And even though I've hardly thought of them this year, the more I look at St. Thomas' profile the more I think they are in good shape with GAC on the bubble or just on wrong side of bubble.

Correction:  St. Thomas may have a RvR issue unless Augsburg comes back in and with Macalester coming in this week.

Luther and Carleton getting the AQ and UWP the likely pool B selection bodes very well  for a second and maybe even a third selection from the MIAC, with so many teams from the conference in the NCAA regional rankings for the north region. St Thomas, GAC and maybe even Augsburg (if they get into the final ranking) are the potential recipients of a pool C in the north.

I suspect St Norbert's, Macalester and any other team from the ARC (like loras) are out.


There is not enough Pool C bids available for the North to get 3 IMO....St.Thomas and GAC are on the bubble with Augsburg no chance...
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: gustiefan04 on November 04, 2018, 01:53:52 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 04, 2018, 01:42:29 PM
Quote from: gustiefan04 on November 04, 2018, 01:35:08 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 04, 2018, 09:55:52 AM
I think C-M-S is in....SoS bump to maybe .540ish and 3-4 ranked wins versus 1 or 0 losses.  They pick up another ranked win with Macalester cracking North this week.

And even though I've hardly thought of them this year, the more I look at St. Thomas' profile the more I think they are in good shape with GAC on the bubble or just on wrong side of bubble.

Correction:  St. Thomas may have a RvR issue unless Augsburg comes back in and with Macalester coming in this week.

Luther and Carleton getting the AQ and UWP the likely pool B selection bodes very well  for a second and maybe even a third selection from the MIAC, with so many teams from the conference in the NCAA regional rankings for the north region. St Thomas, GAC and maybe even Augsburg (if they get into the final ranking) are the potential recipients of a pool C in the north.

I suspect St Norbert's, Macalester and any other team from the ARC (like loras) are out.


There is not enough Pool C bids available for the North to get 3 IMO....St.Thomas and GAC are on the bubble with Augsburg no chance...

I wasn't suggesting the north will get 3 pool C bids, just that those 3 teams will be in consideration. However, I do think there is a good shot the region gets 2 pool C bids, especially with the influence of travel/geography in creating 4 team pods.

I only bring Augsburg in as an outside chance since they knocked off UST, GAC and tied with carelton in the last week, surely a nice bump in their RvR and SOS, which might sneak them into the conversation.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 04, 2018, 03:47:26 PM
Centre upsets Oglethorpe in PK's.....Final PK trickled in under Oglethorpe's GK....That is a tough loss....
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TyWebb on November 04, 2018, 03:56:25 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 04, 2018, 03:47:26 PM
Centre upsets Oglethorpe in PK's.....Final PK trickled in under Oglethorpe's GK....That is a tough loss....

Seemed like the ball took forever to spin over the goal as the GK reached back for it. Mr. Right does Oglethorpe now use up another Pool C? Currently, they're ranked fourth in
South Atlantic.

The Fords stun F&M in 2nd OT with a breakaway goal to win the CC.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 04, 2018, 04:01:37 PM
IDK but that Oglethorpe GK was just a BIT out of shape IMO....
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 04, 2018, 04:02:58 PM
Meanwhile SLU and Ithaca heading to PK's....and

UTD and MHB is 1-0 MHB late but the ref has lost complete control...Yellows flying, Coaches screaming..Complete chaos......Nice stream by UTD and both these teams are solid...Good finish...GREAT CROWD of at least 300...
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 04, 2018, 06:50:48 PM
Working on my Pool Cs....

-- Babson in trouble with no ranked wins and only 1-3-2 IF Springfield ends up ranked, and therefore I am predicting Midd and Williams get in...

-- Ithaca in better shape than I thought....14-2-4//.550ish//2-0-3 RvR

-- Oglethorpe in trouble....13-2-1//.560ish//1-2 RvR

-- Hope despite getting whacked by Calvin 5-0 picked up huge SoS bump to probably .570ish and at 12-3-1 and 2-2 RvR

-- I've looked at Rowan, Will Paterson, RUC, New Paltz and Oneonta several times and I can't figure out who I would pick among them, except Oneonta probably out with RvR of 1-4-2

-- I think we'll see more jumping around and over other teams than usual from week 3 and week 4 of rankings

-- Congrats to Colby!

-- Congrats to St. Joe's for pulling through!


-- Honestly not sure St Norbert is done....compare to North Park who is now sweating....SNC 17-1-1 with SoS probably .525ish and 2-0 or 3-1 on RvR versus North Park at 16-3, maybe .530ish, and 2-2 RvR

-- St Thomas needs Augsburg to get ranked and GAC is competitive at 12-3-1//.560//2-1-1 or 3-2-1
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 04, 2018, 07:11:03 PM
Pool C forecast....

Tufts
CWRU
Cortland St
Rochester
Conn College
Franklin & Marshall
Carnegie Mellon
Johns Hopkins
Ramapo
NYU
Amherst

Lycoming
Midd/Williams
C-M-S
Ithaca
Hope/GAC

That's 16

Bubble -- Hope/GAC, Midd/Williams, North Park, OWU, Oglethorpe, St Thomas, Capital, Mt. Union, William Paterson, Rowan, New Paltz, RUC, Oneonta, Babson, St Norbert, Dickinson


Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 04, 2018, 08:37:57 PM
Surprised that Babson finds itself in trouble, considering the Beavers rolled through the NEWMAC regular season and only has three losses. That being said, the Beavers' SoS seems way below where it has been, at least anecdotally.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gotberg on November 04, 2018, 08:44:30 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 04, 2018, 07:11:03 PM
Pool C forecast....

Tufts
CWRU
Cortland St
Rochester
Conn College
Franklin & Marshall
Carnegie Mellon
Johns Hopkins
Ramapo
NYU
Amherst

Lycoming
Midd/Williams
C-M-S
Ithaca
Hope/GAC

That's 16

Bubble -- Hope/GAC, Midd/Williams, North Park, OWU, Oglethorpe, St Thomas, Capital, Mt. Union, William Paterson, Rowan, New Paltz, RUC, Oneonta, Babson, St Norbert, Dickinson

So apparently only east coast schools get pool c bids.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 04, 2018, 08:48:29 PM
Quote from: Gotberg on November 04, 2018, 08:44:30 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 04, 2018, 07:11:03 PM
Pool C forecast....

Tufts
CWRU
Cortland St
Rochester
Conn College
Franklin & Marshall
Carnegie Mellon
Johns Hopkins
Ramapo
NYU
Amherst

Lycoming
Midd/Williams
C-M-S
Ithaca
Hope/GAC

That's 16

Bubble -- Hope/GAC, Midd/Williams, North Park, OWU, Oglethorpe, St Thomas, Capital, Mt. Union, William Paterson, Rowan, New Paltz, RUC, Oneonta, Babson, St Norbert, Dickinson

So apparently only east coast schools get pool c bids.

The East Coast teams like C-M-S,  Hope, GAC???  Just one person's crack at it.....Please give us your thoughts and predictions.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TyWebb on November 04, 2018, 08:56:31 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 04, 2018, 06:50:48 PM
Working on my Pool Cs....
-- Babson in trouble with no ranked wins and only 1-3-2 IF Springfield ends up ranked, and therefore I am predicting Midd and Williams get in...

Anticipate Springfield to take WPI place in rankings so Babson gets a victory there. Elizabethtown has a good chance to move into the rankings replacing
Catholic. That would give the Beavers another tie. R-v-R could be 1-3-3 with SOS maybe taking a little dip from last weeks .581 due to playing Wheaton Thursday but
playing Springfield in the championship game should balance that out.

And while their R-v-R isn't the greatest, Babson's SOS is higher than these teams from your pool C 16: Cortland St.,Ramapo, NYU, Lycoming, Midd, CMS, Ithaca,
Hope, GAC. So it just depends what metric you choose to use as to who gets in.

On top of that, they were a regular season winner of their conference (Cortland,CMS & GAC can claim that too), lost in the championship game of their conference final with less than 3 minutes to go 1-0. Both Hope and Ramapo end the season with 5-0 drubbings. Probably not the last thing you want the committee seeing on your resume.

I'm hoping they get in. I certainly think they deserve it.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 04, 2018, 08:59:52 PM
Shooter's Pool C Predictions

1. Tufts
2. Case
3. F&M
4. UR
5. Cortland
6. Conn
7. CMU
8. Amherst
9. Hopkins
10. NYU
11. Ramapo
12. Hope
13. Williams
14. Lycoming
15. Claremont
16. Adolphus
17. Ithaca
18. Middlebury
19. Camden/North Park
-----------------------------
20. North Park/Camden
21. St. Thomas
22. Capital
23. Babson
24. Oneonta
25. St. Norbert

Others:
Oglethorpe
Endicott
Dickinson
OWU


Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 04, 2018, 09:07:30 PM
Nice job, Shooter.

TyWebb, if you go back a page or two you'll see that I had Babson easily in and among the top 11-12 picks.  Then I saw the RvR issue.  The SoS is fine.  1 ranked win out of 7 ranked games may be a problem, especially compared to teams with 3+ wins.  And let's not confuse Springfield with Calvin, although I did note teams benefiting from teams they lost to simply because of the boost to SoS.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mid-Atlantic Fan on November 04, 2018, 09:25:18 PM
Pool C Analysis

Locks
1. Tufts
2. Case
3. Cortland
4. F&M
5. Rochester
6. Conn College
7. CMU
8. Hopkins
9. Amherst
10. NYU

Right Side of Bubble
11. Williams
12. Hope
13. Gustavus
14. Ramapo
15. Lycoming

Nervous
16. Claremont
17. Ithaca
18. St. Thomas
19. Camden

Wrong Side of Bubble
20. Middlebury
21. North Park
22. Capital
23. Babson
24. Oneonta
25. Ogelthorpe/St. Norbert

Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3bandwagon on November 04, 2018, 09:41:03 PM
Some say the ACAA is the poor man's UAA. Can't wait for an electric 5-3-2 team in Thomas More making the tournament again.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: mondomike on November 04, 2018, 09:51:26 PM
Can some explain when the actual schedule will be posted, and how the first  round locations are chosen for this relative newbie?

Thanks!
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: bestfancle on November 04, 2018, 09:58:21 PM
Quote from: mondomike on November 04, 2018, 09:51:26 PM
Can some explain when the actual schedule will be posted, and how the first  round locations are chosen for this relative newbie?

Thanks!


Yes, the tournament will be drawn tomorrow during a live show at 1 PM ET. Locations are chosen typically based off of regional rankings. They do a great projection on d3soccer.com, it will probably be updated soon with part 2.

https://www.ncaa.com/news/soccer-men/article/2018-11-03/college-soccer-diii-mens-tournament-selections-be-revealed
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: mondomike on November 04, 2018, 10:05:13 PM
Fantastic- thank you!!
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 04, 2018, 10:21:25 PM
I am feeling better and better about St. Norbert....D3soccer projects SoS up to .543 and 2-0 with RvR and one of the top handful of winning percentages in the country.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TyWebb on November 04, 2018, 10:29:10 PM
Quote from: bestfancle on November 04, 2018, 09:58:21 PM
Quote from: mondomike on November 04, 2018, 09:51:26 PM
Can some explain when the actual schedule will be posted, and how the first  round locations are chosen for this relative newbie?

Thanks!


Yes, the tournament will be drawn tomorrow during a live show at 1 PM ET. Locations are chosen typically based off of regional rankings. They do a great projection on d3soccer.com, it will probably be updated soon with part 2.

https://www.ncaa.com/news/soccer-men/article/2018-11-03/college-soccer-diii-mens-tournament-selections-be-revealed

Here is the D3soccer.com link for the projections. Scroll to the bottom for analysis and predictions.

http://www.d3soccer.com/columns/christan-shirk/2018/mens-at-large-analysis-and-predictions
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 4samuy on November 04, 2018, 11:11:19 PM
IMO, Chicago will be the top seed in the tournament.  That's probably a controversial selection in some people's mind.  Their head to head with Calvin has given them the top spot in the Central Region.  9-2-1 RvR.  It looks to me that the committee is seperating the top teams by head to head and RVR. 

If that is the case, will/can the committee put Calvin and Chicago in separate brackets?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TheGreenKnight920 on November 05, 2018, 12:10:14 AM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 04, 2018, 10:21:25 PM
I am feeling better and better about St. Norbert....D3soccer projects SoS up to .543 and 2-0 with RvR and one of the top handful of winning percentages in the country.

As a Wisconsin sports fan, optimism isn't in our blood. Can't wait for them to get bumped for a .500 NESCAC/UAA/CC/etc... team!
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TheGreenKnight920 on November 05, 2018, 12:12:31 AM
Quote from: Gotberg on November 04, 2018, 08:44:30 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 04, 2018, 07:11:03 PM
Pool C forecast....

Tufts
CWRU
Cortland St
Rochester
Conn College
Franklin & Marshall
Carnegie Mellon
Johns Hopkins
Ramapo
NYU
Amherst

Lycoming
Midd/Williams
C-M-S
Ithaca
Hope/GAC

That's 16

Bubble -- Hope/GAC, Midd/Williams, North Park, OWU, Oglethorpe, St Thomas, Capital, Mt. Union, William Paterson, Rowan, New Paltz, RUC, Oneonta, Babson, St Norbert, Dickinson

So apparently only east coast schools get pool c bids.

You're not wrong...
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: hickory_cornhusker on November 05, 2018, 08:43:27 AM
Quote from: 4samuy on November 04, 2018, 11:11:19 PM
IMO, Chicago will be the top seed in the tournament.  That's probably a controversial selection in some people's mind.  Their head to head with Calvin has given them the top spot in the Central Region.  9-2-1 RvR.  It looks to me that the committee is seperating the top teams by head to head and RVR. 

If that is the case, will/can the committee put Calvin and Chicago in separate brackets?

Can? Absolutely, they separated Chicago and North Park last year (at least until the Final Four).

Will? I have no clue. I think they should, there is enough options in the area to build brackets with them separate but if you spend enough hours looking at something you can sometimes miss obvious things that are there.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2018, 10:10:16 AM
A team that looks to be safe and a team that isn't even on the analysis for wrong side of the bubble.

Middlebury: 10-3-3 .719 WP / .571 SOS / 3-3-1

Camden: 13-5-2 .700 WP / .584 SOS / 2-3-1


I think teams like North Park, St. Norbert are going to get the shaft this year...  I'm also usually wrong.

Very deep pool of similar candidates.   Will be interesting to see how it plays out.



Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2018, 10:29:22 AM
By WIN % only to teams with .700 or better (Williams only exception at .639)
St. Norbert   0.921
Tufts   0.906
Claremont-Mudd-Scripps   0.853
North Park   0.842
Oglethorpe   0.833
Cortland State   0.825
Rochester   0.813
Connecticut College   0.813
Case Western Reserve   0.806
Lycoming   0.8
Ithaca   0.8
St. Thomas   0.789
Ramapo   0.789
Hope   0.781
Gustavus Adolphus   0.781
Capital   0.778
Redlands   0.765
Franklin and Marshall   0.763
Johns Hopkins   0.75
Babson   0.737
Amherst   0.735
New York University   0.735
Augsburg   0.722
Middlebury   0.719
Carnegie Mellon   0.706
Rutgers-Camden   0.7
Williams   0.639

--------------------------------------------------
SOS (.540 and up with exception to C-M-S and NP)
Carnegie Mellon   0.639
Franklin and Marshall   0.613
Case Western Reserve   0.611
Johns Hopkins   0.6
Tufts   0.591
Rochester   0.591
Amherst   0.59
Williams   0.585
St. Thomas   0.584
Rutgers-Camden   0.584
Connecticut College   0.582
Augsburg   0.582
Babson   0.578
Cortland State   0.576
Middlebury   0.571
Capital   0.569
Hope   0.568
Oglethorpe   0.561
Ramapo   0.56
Gustavus Adolphus   0.558
New York University   0.557
Lycoming   0.549
St. Norbert   0.543
Ithaca   0.543
Redlands   0.541
North Park   0.536
Claremont-Mudd-Scripps   0.531

Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on November 05, 2018, 11:04:43 AM
Why the cap at .700 and .540? Anyway, if you rank them by those two metrics and then combine their the totals (evenly weighted), you get:

1 .Tufts   
T2. Case Western Reserve   
T2. Rochester   
4. Connecticut College   
T5. Cortland State   
T5. Franklin and Marshall   
7. St Thomas
T8. Johns Hopkins   
T8. Oglethorpe   
10. St Norbert
11. Carnegie Mellon   
12. Amherst   
T13. North Park   
T13. Claremont-Mudd-Scripps   
T15. Ramapo   
T15. Hope   
T17. Capital   
T17. Lycoming   
T19. Babson   
T19. Ithaca   
21. Augsburg   
T22. Williams   
T22. Gustavus Adolphus   
T22. Rutgers-Camden   
25. Middlebury   
T26. Redlands   
T26. New York University   

Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NEsoccerfan on November 05, 2018, 11:16:32 AM
Quote from: 4samuy on November 04, 2018, 11:11:19 PM
IMO, Chicago will be the top seed in the tournament.  That's probably a controversial selection in some people's mind.  Their head to head with Calvin has given them the top spot in the Central Region.  9-2-1 RvR.  It looks to me that the committee is seperating the top teams by head to head and RVR. 

If that is the case, will/can the committee put Calvin and Chicago in separate brackets?

9-2-1 RVR is ABSURD. I'm not much of a historian, so does anyone know of any team that has ever come close or exceeded that?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TheGreenKnight920 on November 05, 2018, 11:49:20 AM
Quote from: 2319 on November 05, 2018, 11:04:43 AM
Why the cap at .700 and .540? Anyway, if you rank them by those two metrics and then combine their the totals (evenly weighted), you get:

1 .Tufts   
T2. Case Western Reserve   
T2. Rochester   
4. Connecticut College   
T5. Cortland State   
T5. Franklin and Marshall   
7. St Thomas
T8. Johns Hopkins   
T8. Oglethorpe   
10. St Norbert
11. Carnegie Mellon   
12. Amherst   
T13. North Park   
T13. Claremont-Mudd-Scripps   
T15. Ramapo   
T15. Hope   
T17. Capital   
T17. Lycoming   
T19. Babson   
T19. Ithaca   
21. Augsburg   
T22. Williams   
T22. Gustavus Adolphus   
T22. Rutgers-Camden   
25. Middlebury   
T26. Redlands   
T26. New York University   

I really like this as a metric, and for the purposes of this ranking, I see you weighted them evenly, but in reality, do you think that WL % and SOS should be weighted evenly? Do you think winning should be prioritized over how well you can concoct a schedule?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on November 05, 2018, 11:51:55 AM
Quote from: TheGreenKnight920 on November 05, 2018, 11:49:20 AM
Quote from: 2319 on November 05, 2018, 11:04:43 AM
Why the cap at .700 and .540? Anyway, if you rank them by those two metrics and then combine their the totals (evenly weighted), you get:

1 .Tufts   
T2. Case Western Reserve   
T2. Rochester   
4. Connecticut College   
T5. Cortland State   
T5. Franklin and Marshall   
7. St Thomas
T8. Johns Hopkins   
T8. Oglethorpe   
10. St Norbert
11. Carnegie Mellon   
12. Amherst   
T13. North Park   
T13. Claremont-Mudd-Scripps   
T15. Ramapo   
T15. Hope   
T17. Capital   
T17. Lycoming   
T19. Babson   
T19. Ithaca   
21. Augsburg   
T22. Williams   
T22. Gustavus Adolphus   
T22. Rutgers-Camden   
25. Middlebury   
T26. Redlands   
T26. New York University   

I really like this as a metric, and for the purposes of this ranking, I see you weighted them evenly, but in reality, do you think that WL % and SOS should be weighted evenly? Do you think winning should be prioritized over how well you can concoct a schedule?
Concocting a schedule full of teams you can easily beat doesn't really tell anybody anything. SOS isn't perfect, but it does give some indication whether your record is earned because you are really good, or earned because the people you play are really bad. Given this only comes in to play if you fail to win your AQ, it's important that the schedule has at least some challenging components to judge the team against.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 05, 2018, 11:55:14 AM
GreenKnight, I'm pulling for you.....but how one "concocts" a schedule very definitely impacts winning %.  What if SNC had played Chicago, Calvin, Wash U and North Park?  Would you guess at least a couple more losses?  And in exchange you would have gotten a higher SoS.  As I've said, though, I think you got enough of a rise in SoS to at a minimum be forced solidly into the conversation.  And that, plus the ranked wins very well may get you in.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2018, 12:09:02 PM

This is what I'm going with:

NE (4): Tufts, Conn, Amherst, Williams  (Middlebury should be worried)
East (3): Rochester, Cortland, NYU (Ithaca missed out)
MA (3): F&M, JHU, Lyco (the non loss to Messiah and bump in SOS could have salvaged Lyco season)
SA (2): Ramapo and Oglethorpe (Camden on the outside of the bubble)
GL (3):  CWRU, CMU, Capital
Central (2): Hope, NP
North (1): St. Thomas (i don't think St. Norbert did enough to jump the Tommies in final ranking)
West (1):  C-M-S   

North Park, C-M-S Lyco last three in

Ithaca, Middlebury, Camden first three out

Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ommadawn on November 05, 2018, 12:22:15 PM
In combination with the electoral events slated for tomorrow, comments about the geographic distribution of one poster's proposed Pool C bids brought to mind an analogy that works for me. Whereas the AQs are like the Senate, with full geographic representation, the Pool Cs are more like the House of Representatives, with representation roughly proportional to the density of Division III institutions in various regions across the country.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TheGreenKnight920 on November 05, 2018, 12:39:17 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 05, 2018, 11:55:14 AM
GreenKnight, I'm pulling for you.....but how one "concocts" a schedule very definitely impacts winning %.  What if SNC had played Chicago, Calvin, Wash U and North Park?  Would you guess at least a couple more losses?  And in exchange you would have gotten a higher SoS.  As I've said, though, I think you got enough of a rise in SoS to at a minimum be forced solidly into the conversation.  And that, plus the ranked wins very well may get you in.

You're not wrong that a tougher schedule would potentially result in more losses, that's not the issue, the issue is even being able to schedule those games. At the end of the day, what should be considered most heavily is the team does on the pitch, not how well an AD or coach is able to fill out a non-conference slate. I'm not saying that SOS is not worthy of consideration at all, I'm saying that it is the most heavily overrated metric there is. Think UCF football last year. Undefeated, got no love from the committee, and trounced (the score was a lot closer than the actual game was) a traditional powerhouse in Auburn, who was barely out of tourney consideration. It seems like the committee, in both this and every other sport, factors in whether a team is a known commodity, versus if they are a fresh face. More often than not, the known commodity (in terms of team history) gets the nod for bids like this.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 05, 2018, 12:43:11 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2018, 12:09:02 PM

This is what I'm going with:

NE (4): Tufts, Conn, Amherst, Williams  (Middlebury should be worried)
East (3): Rochester, Cortland, NYU (Ithaca missed out)
MA (3): F&M, JHU, Lyco (the non loss to Messiah and bump in SOS could have salvaged Lyco season)
SA (2): Ramapo and Oglethorpe (Camden on the outside of the bubble)
GL (3):  CWRU, CMU, Capital
Central (2): Hope, NP
North (1): St. Thomas (i don't think St. Norbert did enough to jump the Tommies in final ranking)
West (1):  C-M-S   

North Park, C-M-S Lyco last three in

Ithaca, Middlebury, Camden first three out

I agree and I think Lycoming will come in well above the .549 projection they have. Most likely closer to .560 than .549.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ommadawn on November 05, 2018, 12:47:45 PM
Before the inevitable hubbub that will ensue after the selection show and release of the brackets, please indulge a brief moment of sentimentality. I genuinely appreciate the contributions of ALL posters on this board. The historical perspectives, inside information, statistical analyses, insightful comments, impassioned rants, and virtual fellowship provided by contributors greatly enhance my experience of a season that is already pretty great on its own.  Thank you and enjoy the dance!
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on November 05, 2018, 12:54:32 PM
Quote from: TheGreenKnight920 on November 05, 2018, 12:39:17 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 05, 2018, 11:55:14 AM
GreenKnight, I'm pulling for you.....but how one "concocts" a schedule very definitely impacts winning %.  What if SNC had played Chicago, Calvin, Wash U and North Park?  Would you guess at least a couple more losses?  And in exchange you would have gotten a higher SoS.  As I've said, though, I think you got enough of a rise in SoS to at a minimum be forced solidly into the conversation.  And that, plus the ranked wins very well may get you in.

You're not wrong that a tougher schedule would potentially result in more losses, that's not the issue, the issue is even being able to schedule those games. At the end of the day, what should be considered most heavily is the team does on the pitch, not how well an AD or coach is able to fill out a non-conference slate. I'm not saying that SOS is not worthy of consideration at all, I'm saying that it is the most heavily overrated metric there is. Think UCF football last year. Undefeated, got no love from the committee, and trounced (the score was a lot closer than the actual game was) a traditional powerhouse in Auburn, who was barely out of tourney consideration. It seems like the committee, in both this and every other sport, factors in whether a team is a known commodity, versus if they are a fresh face. More often than not, the known commodity (in terms of team history) gets the nod for bids like this.

Yes, but you're missing a key point here. UCF has no clear path to the playoffs at the start of the year. There is no AQ in FBS. Every DIII team, less those in Pool B, have a way to play themselves in. Regardless of how it is scheduled, regardless of win percentage, regardless of RvR or perception. There is a path. Don't fail on the path and nothing else matters.

However, if you fail on the path, then you are going to be compared. And teams that played harder competition deserve recognition for it. Teams that coasted through easy opponents are going to get looked at a little harder. Especially since despite the easy path they followed, they still couldn't close it out.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2018, 12:58:09 PM

https://www.ncaa.com/video/soccer-men/2018-11-05/diii-mens-soccer-2018-selection-show

Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: mondomike on November 05, 2018, 01:01:33 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2018, 12:58:09 PM

is there a proper link for the selection show?

https://www.ncaa.com/video/soccer-men/2018-11-05/diii-mens-soccer-2018-selection-show
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TheGreenKnight920 on November 05, 2018, 01:01:55 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2018, 12:58:09 PM

is there a proper link for the selection show?

https://www.ncaa.com/video/soccer-men/2018-11-05/diii-mens-soccer-2018-selection-show?sf201594643=1
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 05, 2018, 01:13:28 PM
Well, NPU didn't make it. I'm extremely disappointed, but I have no complaints. The Vikings knew what they needed to do, which was to win on Saturday and avoid the bubble, and in spite of dominating the match against Carthage they didn't get it accomplished. It is what it is. NPU's SoS just wasn't high enough to get the Vikings on firm ground for a Pool C.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: gustiefan04 on November 05, 2018, 01:19:06 PM
Definitely surprised to see St. Thomas, GAC and Augsburg all get Pool C bids. That makes 4 teams from the MIAC in the tournament this year. Amazing!

Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on November 05, 2018, 01:25:32 PM
The North Region was the hardest to figure out what order teams would end up in, and I never thought so berths would come from there.  Four teams from the MIAC is crazy.  Not sure how anybody could have predicted that.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: MinnesotaSoccer10 on November 05, 2018, 01:28:56 PM
Quote from: gustiefan04 on November 05, 2018, 01:19:06 PM
Definitely surprised to see St. Thomas, GAC and Augsburg all get Pool C bids. That makes 4 teams from the MIAC in the tournament this year. Amazing!


This is a huge surprise and I'm not sure if it is very deserved? Non the less it is exciting for the conference, which I am partial too. Very tough draw for Carleton, who got the AQ but has to go to U Chicago. UST hosting is a bit of a head scratcher, but they do have a very nice facility and location so that maybe played a part?

Side notes: I can't help but feel bad for St. Norberts here, and the soccer purest part of me is happy to not see Loras make it with their terrible soccer brand. I will admit I haven't watched them this year so I do not know if much has changed and all my ill feelings are based of of years past.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on November 05, 2018, 01:29:02 PM
Augsburg isn't ranked in 3rd regional poll and loses MIAC title in PKs. Definitely a bit surprising IMO.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 05, 2018, 01:29:47 PM
Quote from: 2319 on November 05, 2018, 01:29:02 PM
Augsburg isn't ranked in 3rd regional poll and loses MIAC title in PKs. Definitely a bit surprising IMO.

2319, did you get your EB removed?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2018, 01:38:20 PM

I'm surprised to see Southwestern get in at 12-5-3.  Picking up 3 RvR wins over Colorado and taking Trinity to PKs salvaged their season.

Seeing NP, C-M-S, and SNC all fail to earn a Pool C just stresses the importance of SOS.

I still cannot believe the love for MIAC and the North Region...


Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TheGreenKnight920 on November 05, 2018, 01:56:53 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2018, 01:38:20 PM


Seeing NP, C-M-S, and SNC all fail to earn a Pool C just stresses the importance of SOS.

I still cannot believe the love for MIAC and the North Region...

Not even a surprise at this point, over-emphasized metric in SOS, combined with an affinity for a particular conference by the committee, will produce results like this. Same story for pretty much every other sport, and its quite sad, really. The field, as well as fans like us, will miss out on seeing teams who really deserve to be there and would put up a fight against anyone. The old cliché is that "someone has to be the last one out," well, sure, but subjectivity always is a product of bias (whether unconscious or not) and in this case, we get teams like Middlebury, Williams, St. Thomas, Platteville, etc... win out due to factors that you won't find on a stats sheet.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TheGreenKnight920 on November 05, 2018, 01:59:41 PM
Quote from: 2319 on November 05, 2018, 01:29:02 PM
Augsburg isn't ranked in 3rd regional poll and loses MIAC title in PKs. Definitely a bit surprising IMO.

I mean, good for them for sneaking in, but this might be the most laughable selection yet. They could prove me wrong, certainly, but this is exactly why I sound like a broken record railing against some of this selection criteria.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2018, 02:03:10 PM

Losing to Calvin 2x and getting bumped.    There is no HOPE.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TheGreenKnight920 on November 05, 2018, 02:09:02 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2018, 02:03:10 PM

Losing to Calvin 2x and getting bumped.    There is no HOPE.

This one baffles me as well...you're telling me that Hope wasn't a better team than Augsburg, St. Thomas, etc....yikes
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 05, 2018, 02:28:19 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2018, 01:38:20 PM

I'm surprised to see Southwestern get in at 12-5-3.  Picking up 3 RvR wins over Colorado and taking Trinity to PKs salvaged their season.

Seeing NP, C-M-S, and SNC all fail to earn a Pool C just stresses the importance of SOS.

NPU was to some extent the victim of down years for a number of programs that have typically done better. (Yeah, I'm looking at you, Thomas More, Carthage, and Elmhurst.)

There's only so much that you can do with regard to scheduling when it comes to SoS. Some of it is simply crossing your fingers and hoping that your opponents do well when they're not playing you (or, in the case of your conference rivals, when they're playing non-conference opponents). It just didn't work out in NPU's favor this season.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 05, 2018, 02:29:31 PM
Quote from: TheGreenKnight920 on November 05, 2018, 02:09:02 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2018, 02:03:10 PM

Losing to Calvin 2x and getting bumped.    There is no HOPE.

This one baffles me as well...you're telling me that Hope wasn't a better team than Augsburg, St. Thomas, etc....yikes

... and it sucked for NPU, too, because, although I haven't seen the final ranking, I doubt that NPU passed Hope -- which kept the Vikings from ever getting to the table.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2018, 02:41:21 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 15, 2018, 11:29:16 AM
MAF what's your Elite 8 // FINAL FOUR projections?

Chicago over Calvin
Messiah over Tufts

Messiah over Chicago

Elite 8:  Conn, Brandeis, JHU, probably Trinity TX

I really have no feel for the South Atlantic, have not watched the ODAC or CAC... NJAC is a mystery and I don't know if they will have a team reach Elite 8.   

Can Brandeis get in... what a brutal remaining schedule with Amherst, @ WashU, @ Chicago, @NYU.   SIX blemishes already and should finish out 3-1 or 2-1-1.  8 blemishes with that SOS should get them in, but probably not.

Elite 8
Chicago over St. Thomas (The MIAC has now become a repeat of conf playoffs to reach Elite 8).
Calvin over Kenyon
Tufts over MSU (if MSU hosts the opening pod, they will advance).
Messiah over SLU


Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Christan Shirk on November 05, 2018, 02:54:26 PM
Not going to agonize over any wrong predictions over at D3soccer.com.  It's a quick turnaround and so much to consider and compare. 

But I am hitting myself for not having Augsburg picked.  That was a clerical mistake on my part as I have noted that their R-v-R changed from 0-2-1 for the Week 3 rankings to 2-2-3 for the final rankings and meant to shortlist them to see if they really had a shot to go from unranked to selected.  But somehow they never got copied into my shortlist and with the rush and sleepiness I never caught my oversight. Re-visiting my comparisons with Augsburg included, I believe I would have put Augsburg where I erroneously had St. Norbert edging the MIAC teams.

I don't think anyone could have expected the MIAC to get 3 at-large berths, but the numbers are in the range that it's not completely off-base.  I just figured Hope's numbers were similar enough and because they would have been on the table from the get-go (with the two teams ahead of them in the Central already in via AQ), I didn't think 19 picks would come and go without them finally getting in. And taking Ithaca over someone like St. Thomas might be a case of underestimating just much the committee values SOS and botching how they would compare the two schools' R-v-R.

Southwestern over Claremont-M-S is one that could have gone either way.  If the SCAC final had been a Trinity win instead of a tie, maybe Claremont stays in front for the lone West region at-large berth.

I probably got a little too intrigued by the idea of unranked UW-Whitewater coming out of nowhere to grab a berth, whether Pool B or C, and should have stayed more conservative with UW-Platteville.

I think that's the worst I've done, 15 of 19, but if I had not been so sloppy with Augsburg, I would have felt just fine with 16 of 19 on a year like this.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: rudy on November 05, 2018, 02:56:18 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2018, 02:41:21 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on October 15, 2018, 11:29:16 AM
MAF what's your Elite 8 // FINAL FOUR projections?

Chicago over Calvin
Messiah over Tufts

Messiah over Chicago

Elite 8:  Conn, Brandeis, JHU, probably Trinity TX

I really have no feel for the South Atlantic, have not watched the ODAC or CAC... NJAC is a mystery and I don't know if they will have a team reach Elite 8.   

Can Brandeis get in... what a brutal remaining schedule with Amherst, @ WashU, @ Chicago, @NYU.   SIX blemishes already and should finish out 3-1 or 2-1-1.  8 blemishes with that SOS should get them in, but probably not.

Elite 8
Chicago over St. Thomas (The MIAC has now become a repeat of conf playoffs to reach Elite 8).
Calvin over Kenyon
Tufts over MSU (if MSU hosts the opening pod, they will advance).
Messiah over SLU

Chicago looks to have the easiest path to final 4.  Not a lot of tough teams to get through.  Calvin, Tufts,  Messiah brackets look pretty similar in terms of difficulty.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Shooter McGavin on November 05, 2018, 03:48:35 PM
Quote from: Shooter McGavin on November 04, 2018, 08:59:52 PM
Shooter's Pool C Predictions

1. Tufts
2. Case
3. F&M
4. UR
5. Cortland
6. Conn
7. CMU
8. Amherst
9. Hopkins
10. NYU
11. Ramapo
12. Hope
13. Williams
14. Lycoming
15. Claremont
16. Adolphus
17. Ithaca
18. Middlebury
19. Camden/North Park
-----------------------------
20. North Park/Camden
21. St. Thomas
22. Capital

23. Babson
24. Oneonta
25. St. Norbert

Others:
Oglethorpe
Endicott
Dickinson
OWU


Southwestern & Augsburg

15/19 isn't too bad  ;D
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 05, 2018, 06:43:04 PM
Quote from: TheGreenKnight920 on November 05, 2018, 01:56:53 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 05, 2018, 01:38:20 PM


Seeing NP, C-M-S, and SNC all fail to earn a Pool C just stresses the importance of SOS.

I still cannot believe the love for MIAC and the North Region...

Not even a surprise at this point, over-emphasized metric in SOS, combined with an affinity for a particular conference by the committee, will produce results like this. Same story for pretty much every other sport, and its quite sad, really. The field, as well as fans like us, will miss out on seeing teams who really deserve to be there and would put up a fight against anyone. The old cliché is that "someone has to be the last one out," well, sure, but subjectivity always is a product of bias (whether unconscious or not) and in this case, we get teams like Middlebury, Williams, St. Thomas, Platteville, etc... win out due to factors that you won't find on a stats sheet.



I feel for you...I hear ur complaint loud and clear and actually agree that St.Norbert probably should have snuck in. I would say they could have been the last team IN but honestly not much more than that. I totally understand that the geography of St.Norbert up near Green Bay, WI is not ideal BUT honestly in the future they are going to need to travel a bit to get a couple more solid opponents. You are what about 3-4 hours from Chicago? Maybe the opening weekend of the season somehow get a North Park / Chicago or what not on the schedule and then find another team in that area for a 2nd game on the weekend. Beating a 3-16 (0-11) Lakeland team 14-0 is just not going to cut it. You play St.Scholastica and beat them 6-0 but fail to play UW-Superior who I think is nearby and they were what 18-2-1? I get it...easier said than done to schedule these games because....1. These teams might not want to play you and 2. ur geography in relation to other D3 schools just sucks...It is tough....

I think the Committee could weigh some regions SOS heavuer than others(which I am betting they kind of do anyway)..Like the "Island regions" as someone called them, their SOS of .520 should be like a .560 in New England/ East Coast...IDK there has to be a way to weigh it fairly...Also, I do think the regions with 9-10-12 teams that get ranked based on the # of schools in said region also obviously benefit because it gives you WAY more chances to get Ranked Wins and frankly Ranked games....So maybe a 2-0-0 in the West would be like a 4-0-0 in the East. There has to be a way to "even the playing field" for all regions. Other than that I am not sure what else can be done....MAYBE......Instead of just tracking RvR in the larger regions they should also track RvR v Top Half and RvR v Bottom Half in regions that have more than 8 teams....I mean there are plenty of options and ideas to even the playing field but I get the sense that the committee has no interest in changing much if anything at all....
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 05, 2018, 07:28:32 PM
I wonder if there has ever been a team 14-2-1 with RvR of 4-1 that didn't get in?  That in Week 3 was #1 in the region.  If the SoS was that big of a problem then why put at #1 in Week #3?

I agree that there are some inherent problems with SoS, including the wild fluctuations with getting an unexpected 1-16 team or generously unexpected 14-3 team, and the the geography issues as already noted.

I also think the RvR system has flaws as a lot can change just based on who comes in or out of those last couple of slots in each region.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 05, 2018, 07:51:50 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 05, 2018, 07:28:32 PM
I wonder if there has ever been a team 14-2-1 with RvR of 4-1 that didn't get in?  That in Week 3 was #1 in the region.  If the SoS was that big of a problem then why put at #1 in Week #3?

I agree that there are some inherent problems with SoS, including the wild fluctuations with getting an unexpected 1-16 team or generously unexpected 14-3 team, and the the geography issues as already noted.

I also think the RvR system has flaws as a lot can change just based on who comes in or out of those last couple of slots in each region.


Agreed....The "suspicious" random addition of Hamilton in the New England rankings in Week 3 basically allowed for Williams and Midd to get into the NCAA's IMO...That is why in New England with 12 ranked teams why not have a criteria of RvR vs Top 6 and a secondary of RvR v Bottom 6. I think that would seperate the teams a bit more.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 05, 2018, 11:58:45 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 05, 2018, 07:51:50 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 05, 2018, 07:28:32 PM
I wonder if there has ever been a team 14-2-1 with RvR of 4-1 that didn't get in?  That in Week 3 was #1 in the region.  If the SoS was that big of a problem then why put at #1 in Week #3?

I agree that there are some inherent problems with SoS, including the wild fluctuations with getting an unexpected 1-16 team or generously unexpected 14-3 team, and the the geography issues as already noted.

I also think the RvR system has flaws as a lot can change just based on who comes in or out of those last couple of slots in each region.


Agreed....The "suspicious" random addition of Hamilton in the New England rankings in Week 3 basically allowed for Williams and Midd to get into the NCAA's IMO...That is why in New England with 12 ranked teams why not have a criteria of RvR vs Top 6 and a secondary of RvR v Bottom 6. I think that would seperate the teams a bit more.

I've asked a version of this question in other committees, and the answer back is always more interesting.

They aren't looking at the raw numbers and simply saying ... oh, they are now 5-0-1 against vRRO. They are looking at who they are playing and where they are ranked in each region. They do say, ok... they tied against a #2, and won against teams ranked 10, 11, and 12 (I'm making this stuff up). They also look at the other regions and compare to say if a #3 in one region is equivalent to a #3 in another region. So, to some degree as I understand it in a lot of committees including soccer ... they are breaking down the vRRO more than just a hard WL number.

I know people get tired of the basketball references in this group, but it is helpful since a lot of what I have learned with their committees I have heard echoed in sports like soccer. I also know the committee chairs get together at least once a year to talk about strategies and practices ... so things do cross over.

My point being, committees don't tend to look at the WL% of a vRRO. They just look at the "results." It is "Results" Versus Regionally Ranked Opponents, after all. So, they use that term "results" to the fullest, if possible. Who was the opponent, what was the result(s), whatever they can get out of that information more than just W, L, T, percentage, etc.

When I changed my thinking with those two ideas in mind, understanding the vRRO turned on its head. We have been able to make darn good selections in basketball with that mentality (I have not tried to figure out how d3soccer guys do with their selection rate; I'm not trying to compare). When we realized there is more going on than just hard data (i.e. W, L, T, or percentage number) it made the explanation or reasoning sometimes more clear.

I am not going to pretend or figure out what the soccer committees chose to do, but I thought maybe it would be helpful to change the perception or perspective to see if that helps.

New England is a challenge in a lot of sports with the number of teams ranked. It is a popular topic in other sports, actually. Some of you may know this, but just in case ... the ranking numbers are based on the ratio of teams and bids. One could make a counter argument that cutting back the number of teams ranked in New England hurts because it makes it far more difficult to be ranked. It may seem odd to say when you see 12 teams ranked, but there are also far more teams in New England. In other words, the chances and opportunity to be ranked in New England is exactly the same as any other region ... even if it doesn't seem that way on paper.

Final note about rankings from week to week ... remember that committees start from scratch each week. They don't start with the previous week's rankings and see if they should make adjustments. They start from scratch with nothing on their screens or pads. Just because a team was ranked #1 one week does not mean that's where they start. They start in the pile with everyone else. So what got a team ranked #1 one week may not hold up the following week as the data changes. And a lot of data changes with all teams in a region: WL%, SOS, vRRO (which is always changing), H2H, etc., etc., etc.

Comparing from one week to the next rankings can lead down a road of confusion. It is hard to keep from doing. I get caught doing it myself and I've been studying regional rankings for 20 or more years. But you have to look at each week in the vacuum of each week only.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Domino1195 on November 06, 2018, 06:41:20 AM
Excellent reply. The operative word is "results".  There's more to a win or loss: to whom did you lose or tie and, what kind of game did you play when you lost or tied, etc.

I really thought OWU would get in over Capital. The head to head loss was Cap's worst performance of the year and it was at home. But all Cap's losses where to ranked teams, two going into OT. And the NCAC just hasn't been as strong these past two years. It could have gotten down to the loss to Denison and tie against DePauw - teams they probably should have beaten. And these two results are far from "head scratchers" - Denison cane on strong second half of the year and DePauw - while
erratic - wasn't a slouch. But the last Pool C bid in the GL could have been decided with these considerations,
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 06, 2018, 10:02:58 AM
Paul Newman's Own Pre-NCAA Tournament Top 25


1)  Messiah
2)  Calvin
3)  Chicago
4)  Tufts

5)  Montclair St
6)  Kenyon
7)  St. Joseph's (ME)
8)  CWRU

9)  Rochester
10) Haverford
11) Trinity (TX)
12) Cortland St

13) SLU
14) North Park
15) Franklin & Marshall
16) Connecticut College

17) Johns Hopkins
18) Washington & Lee
19) Lycoming
20) Mary Washington

21) Carnegie Mellon
22) Ramapo
23) John Carroll
24) Eastern
25) Amherst/St. Norbert/Luther/C-M-S/Stevens [TIE]

RV -- Hope, NYU, Ithaca, GAC, Oglethorpe, Williams, Middlebury, Brockport, Augsburg, Capital, Babson, OWU, Endicott, Western Conn, Knox, Oneonta St, Camden, Lynchburg, St Thomas, UW-Platteville, Centre, Carleton, Springfield, Mary Hardin-Baylor, Gordon, Southwestern
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: calvin_grad on November 06, 2018, 10:39:13 AM
Snow and ice and highs in the mid 30s this weekend for the games at Calvin.  :(
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 06, 2018, 10:48:03 AM
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 06, 2018, 10:39:13 AM
Snow and ice and highs in the mid 30s this weekend for the games at Calvin.  :(

Since Calvin likely to be hosting both weekends do you see any chance the games will be moved to Hope as they were a few years ago?  What condition is the field in now?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: calvin_grad on November 06, 2018, 12:53:52 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 06, 2018, 10:48:03 AM
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 06, 2018, 10:39:13 AM
Snow and ice and highs in the mid 30s this weekend for the games at Calvin.  :(

Since Calvin likely to be hosting both weekends do you see any chance the games will be moved to Hope as they were a few years ago?  What condition is the field in now?
From watching the MIAA tournament, it seems like the field is in pretty good condition now.  There's been a light rain most of the day today.  Tomorrow there is a 40% chance of sprinkles, Thursday is supposed to be dry.  If I had to guess, I would say they should be able to play the games at Calvin this weekend.  But who knows....This is Michigan, where we see all four seasons within a 24 hour window sometimes.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 06, 2018, 02:47:17 PM
Wow...just saw that C-M-S only gave up 4 goals this year, tied for 2nd in the country with Conn College and of course St Joseph's 1st with 1 GA.  C-M-S is definitely right there with North Park and St. Norbert as biggest snubs.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: JimLahey on November 06, 2018, 03:54:13 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 06, 2018, 10:48:03 AM
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 06, 2018, 10:39:13 AM
Snow and ice and highs in the mid 30s this weekend for the games at Calvin.  :(

Since Calvin likely to be hosting both weekends do you see any chance the games will be moved to Hope as they were a few years ago?  What condition is the field in now?

How is hosting for the 2nd weekend determined?

I assume that geography is more important than ranking/record.  Calvin and the other teams they are hosting in the 1st weekend are from Michigan and Wisconsin.  The other teams they would play in the 2nd weekend are considerably east and fairly concentrated.  Case, JCU, and Kenyon are all in the greater Cleveland area (and maybe favorites to win this 1st weekend) and CMU, Westminster, and Capital are all nearby, so I would assume one of those schools would host the 2nd weekend.  I looked at flights to Lansing (which i assume is where teams would fly into to play Calvin) and they are much more expensive then a more major city like Cleveland/Pittsburgh. 
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on November 06, 2018, 04:02:10 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 06, 2018, 10:48:03 AM
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 06, 2018, 10:39:13 AM
Snow and ice and highs in the mid 30s this weekend for the games at Calvin.  :(

Since Calvin likely to be hosting both weekends do you see any chance the games will be moved to Hope as they were a few years ago?  What condition is the field in now?

CWRU, IMO, is the higher seed, and likely the 4th overall seed, (Chicago #1, Tufts #2, Messiah #3)

CRWU #1 GLakes   .613 SOS and 6 RRwins
Calvin #2 Central   .578 SOS and 3 RRwins

I am assuming Chicago was the #1 overall... was this mentioned during the selection show?

Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: fan23 on November 06, 2018, 04:08:07 PM
Selection Process needs Rethinking
A selection system that rewards loosing needs to be examined. For example, take a look at St. Thomas (in) and St. Norbert (out).
SNC has a better record (17-1-1 for a winning percentage of .921 vs. ST at 14-3-2 for a .789). SNC accomplished 2 rank wins in only 2 games (RvR of 2-0-0 for 1.000) while it took ST 7 games to accomplish  2 ranked wins, loosing/tying the others (RvR of 2-3-1 for .357) BUT ST gets in because those ranked losses upped their SOS. In other words, by loosing to ranked teams they upped their SOS enough to get in over a team with better stats and the same number of ranked wins.  To say this system doesn't reward loosing is to ignore the numbers.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: jknezek on November 06, 2018, 04:18:52 PM
Quote from: fan23 on November 06, 2018, 04:08:07 PM
Selection Process needs Rethinking
A selection system that rewards loosing needs to be examined. For example, take a look at St. Thomas (in) and St. Norbert (out).
SNC has a better record (17-1-1 for a winning percentage of .921 vs. ST at 14-3-2 for a .789). SNC accomplished 2 rank wins in only 2 games (RvR of 2-0-0 for 1.000) while it took ST 7 games to accomplish  2 ranked wins, loosing/tying the others (RvR of 2-3-1 for .357) BUT ST gets in because those ranked losses upped their SOS. In other words, by loosing to ranked teams they upped their SOS enough to get in over a team with better stats and the same number of ranked wins.  To say this system doesn't reward loosing is to ignore the numbers.

It could be simpler to say that it rewards scheduling challenging games and looks unfavorably upon teams that don't. But only if you fail to win the AQ, of course. The ONLY 3 games STU lost were to ranked opponents. SNC can't claim the same, losing to an unranked opponent. SNC also has a slight problem of losing to Knox, who STU beat, though it's fair to also note SNC was 1-1 against Knox and just lost the more important game.

It's just not as straight forward as people would like it to be, and it's never going to be straight forward for that last spot or three.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 06, 2018, 04:19:04 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 06, 2018, 04:02:10 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 06, 2018, 10:48:03 AM
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 06, 2018, 10:39:13 AM
Snow and ice and highs in the mid 30s this weekend for the games at Calvin.  :(

Since Calvin likely to be hosting both weekends do you see any chance the games will be moved to Hope as they were a few years ago?  What condition is the field in now?

CWRU, IMO, is the higher seed, and likely the 4th overall seed, (Chicago #1, Tufts #2, Messiah #3)

CRWU #1 GLakes   .613 SOS and 6 RRwins
Calvin #2 Central   .578 SOS and 3 RRwins

I am assuming Chicago was the #1 overall... was this mentioned during the selection show?

I think you are probably right, except I'm not sure a bye for Tufts means they are the #2 seed.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ommadawn on November 06, 2018, 04:59:10 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 06, 2018, 04:18:52 PM
Quote from: fan23 on November 06, 2018, 04:08:07 PM
Selection Process needs Rethinking
A selection system that rewards loosing needs to be examined. For example, take a look at St. Thomas (in) and St. Norbert (out).
SNC has a better record (17-1-1 for a winning percentage of .921 vs. ST at 14-3-2 for a .789). SNC accomplished 2 rank wins in only 2 games (RvR of 2-0-0 for 1.000) while it took ST 7 games to accomplish  2 ranked wins, loosing/tying the others (RvR of 2-3-1 for .357) BUT ST gets in because those ranked losses upped their SOS. In other words, by loosing to ranked teams they upped their SOS enough to get in over a team with better stats and the same number of ranked wins.  To say this system doesn't reward loosing is to ignore the numbers.

It could be simpler to say that it rewards scheduling challenging games and looks unfavorably upon teams that don't. But only if you fail to win the AQ, of course. The ONLY 3 games STU lost were to ranked opponents. SNC can't claim the same, losing to an unranked opponent. SNC also has a slight problem of losing to Knox, who STU beat, though it's fair to also note SNC was 1-1 against Knox and just lost the more important game.

I agree with jknezek's interpretation. The reward is conferred at the time the game is scheduled (or at least at the time the game kicks off). The result of the game, which comes later, confers additional reward (in the form of a boost to winning percentage and RvR) with a win or penalty (in the form of a hit to winning percentage and RvR) with a loss.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: D3Grad on November 06, 2018, 05:00:00 PM
Hello all.  I have been a fly on the wall the past few years on this forum.  Your commentary on all the teams and conferences has been appreciated both from a reader's perspective and scouting purposes.  So, thank you! ;)
Considering the recent pandemonium of this year's bracket draw I can provide some insight into the MIAC conference which I was a part of.  It is a very tough conference to play in.  The games are rarely pretty.  Often very gritty and come down to set plays, long throws, and fluke goals.  As I have noticed with the NESCAC any team can win on any given day.  Very EPL/Championship like.  What I don't understand about MIAC teams is their struggles with non-conference teams versus in conference.  They also schedule some serious cupcakes which muddies the North region rankings quite a bit. 
I would like other's input on this theory but maybe St. Thomas' recent success has put the MIAC on the map and maybe the committee found the conference competitive enough to draw 3 at large bids.  It surely is a blessing for the MIAC conference to show itself, so I am excited to see how it all plays out. 
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Londoner on November 06, 2018, 05:30:59 PM
Following on from D3Grad, thought I'd drop some thoughts here also.

As a former player in the West Region I CANNOT believe that Southwestern were put in above Claremont. Somebody has already raised this, but I see absolutely no reason aside from saving money by not having to fly another team from California that Claremont missed out. Their defensive record this year speaks for itself and when you take into account everything else on their resume I can't  legislate for Southwestern jumping to #1 in the region. That's madness. But I will say its a huge moment for the southwestern program (who are vastly improved in recent years)  and a great opportunity for them to make a name for themselves. Though a team that will really hold a grudge on this will be Colorado College who have been overlooked in the past for a pool C bid with better candidacy than Southwestern has this year. Colorado's island status in the D3 landscape hurts them.

The D3 landscape is obviously heavily geographically slanted towards the eastern side of the country, but I will say that it was (and is) infuriating to constantly see the West overlooked year on year on the national scale. Largely, this comes down to strength of schedule which for me is considered WAY too highly in the selection process. Budgets are not endless. West region schools often can't fly across the country multiple times a season to challenge UAA or NESCAC schools and most are also hamstrung by double round robin formats, or single round robin conferences with too many teams. The West typically getting just one Pool C each year is very harsh on a number of talented teams in the region that suffers purely based on being on an island - relatively speaking.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Bobcat1 on November 06, 2018, 05:31:35 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 06, 2018, 04:19:04 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 06, 2018, 04:02:10 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 06, 2018, 10:48:03 AM
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 06, 2018, 10:39:13 AM
Snow and ice and highs in the mid 30s this weekend for the games at Calvin.  :(

Since Calvin likely to be hosting both weekends do you see any chance the games will be moved to Hope as they were a few years ago?  What condition is the field in now?

CWRU, IMO, is the higher seed, and likely the 4th overall seed, (Chicago #1, Tufts #2, Messiah #3)

CRWU #1 GLakes   .613 SOS and 6 RRwins
Calvin #2 Central   .578 SOS and 3 RRwins

I am assuming Chicago was the #1 overall... was this mentioned during the selection show?

I think you are probably right, except I'm not sure a bye for Tufts means they are the #2 seed.

I think this is likely accurate. Tufts higher SOS and RvR compared to Messiah could be a couple reasons for the bye. As I said on another tread, the committee could have sent Thomas College to Tufts, sent Western Conn to Conn College, and sent Baruch to play F&M. That would have given the bye to Messiah and been less travel on a combined basis for all. That's why I'm not buying the "geography" reason as the likely reason why Tufts got the bye. However, it doesn't really matter at this point. When they get to the round of 32, there are no "easy" games (actually there are not that many easy games in the round of 64 either, unless you get the bye).
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: gustiefan04 on November 06, 2018, 06:07:25 PM
Quote from: D3Grad on November 06, 2018, 05:00:00 PM
Hello all.  I have been a fly on the wall the past few years on this forum.  Your commentary on all the teams and conferences has been appreciated both from a reader's perspective and scouting purposes.  So, thank you! ;)
Considering the recent pandemonium of this year's bracket draw I can provide some insight into the MIAC conference which I was a part of.  It is a very tough conference to play in.  The games are rarely pretty.  Often very gritty and come down to set plays, long throws, and fluke goals.  As I have noticed with the NESCAC any team can win on any given day.  Very EPL/Championship like.  What I don't understand about MIAC teams is their struggles with non-conference teams versus in conference.  They also schedule some serious cupcakes which muddies the North region rankings quite a bit. 
I would like other's input on this theory but maybe St. Thomas' recent success has put the MIAC on the map and maybe the committee found the conference competitive enough to draw 3 at large bids.  It surely is a blessing for the MIAC conference to show itself, so I am excited to see how it all plays out.

The MIAC always seems to produce a team or two in the tournament capable of making a run in the tournament. I began following the MIAC in the early 2000's. Since that time the MIAC has, with some regularity, had a team or two make a decent run in the NCAA's (Sweet 16 or better). MAC, GAC, Carleton all have had nice stretches of of 2-4+ years in a row making the tournament, and having some success and more recently the Thommies.

Its also not been uncommon for the MIAC to get 2 teams into the tournament. I can recall at least once when they've had 3 teams (MAC, GAC and Carleton in maybe 2011 or 2012?)...but never 4 teams.The selection committee has always viewed the MIAC pretty favorably on a national level, but never shown this much love...

As to the results in non-conference matches, a quick look at the four teams in the tournament, UST, GAC and Augs only lost 1 match outside of conference and Carleton was undefeated in non-conference matches. You can potentially call to question the quality of some of those opponents, but these teams all have solid records against non-conference teams. Perhaps programs like UWP and lither have just improved...

Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 06, 2018, 06:27:35 PM
Quote from: Londoner on November 06, 2018, 05:30:59 PM
Following on from D3Grad, thought I'd drop some thoughts here also.

As a former player in the West Region I CANNOT believe that Southwestern were put in above Claremont. Somebody has already raised this, but I see absolutely no reason aside from saving money by not having to fly another team from California that Claremont missed out. Their defensive record this year speaks for itself and when you take into account everything else on their resume I can't  legislate for Southwestern jumping to #1 in the region. That's madness. But I will say its a huge moment for the southwestern program (who are vastly improved in recent years)  and a great opportunity for them to make a name for themselves. Though a team that will really hold a grudge on this will be Colorado College who have been overlooked in the past for a pool C bid with better candidacy than Southwestern has this year. Colorado's island status in the D3 landscape hurts them.

The D3 landscape is obviously heavily geographically slanted towards the eastern side of the country, but I will say that it was (and is) infuriating to constantly see the West overlooked year on year on the national scale. Largely, this comes down to strength of schedule which for me is considered WAY too highly in the selection process. Budgets are not endless. West region schools often can't fly across the country multiple times a season to challenge UAA or NESCAC schools and most are also hamstrung by double round robin formats, or single round robin conferences with too many teams. The West typically getting just one Pool C each year is very harsh on a number of talented teams in the region that suffers purely based on being on an island - relatively speaking.

Thank you for posting.  It is important for people hear these views and see that maybe we shouldn't just knee-jerk accept the status quo of "the process is fine" or "as good as it can get" or "go win your AQ."  The C-M-S snub based on what we know makes no sense.  Maybe there is something we don't know that would make more sense.  It's also good to have more posters that are underrepresented on the site.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 06, 2018, 08:03:22 PM
Quote from: lastguyoffthebench on November 06, 2018, 04:02:10 PM

I am assuming Chicago was the #1 overall... was this mentioned during the selection show?

Never mentioned in a DIII selection/bracket show. Seeds/rankings don't exist in DIII. Committees may try and put some of the higher regionally ranked teams (per criteria) in particular places on a bracket, but it's also impossible to truly seed a DIII tournament.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: fan23 on November 06, 2018, 08:07:47 PM
Quote from: jknezek on November 06, 2018, 04:18:52 PM
Quote from: fan23 on November 06, 2018, 04:08:07 PM
Selection Process needs Rethinking
A selection system that rewards loosing needs to be examined. For example, take a look at St. Thomas (in) and St. Norbert (out).
SNC has a better record (17-1-1 for a winning percentage of .921 vs. ST at 14-3-2 for a .789). SNC accomplished 2 rank wins in only 2 games (RvR of 2-0-0 for 1.000) while it took ST 7 games to accomplish  2 ranked wins, loosing/tying the others (RvR of 2-3-1 for .357) BUT ST gets in because those ranked losses upped their SOS. In other words, by loosing to ranked teams they upped their SOS enough to get in over a team with better stats and the same number of ranked wins.  To say this system doesn't reward loosing is to ignore the numbers.

It could be simpler to say that it rewards scheduling challenging games and looks unfavorably upon teams that don't. But only if you fail to win the AQ, of course. The ONLY 3 games STU lost were to ranked opponents. SNC can't claim the same, losing to an unranked opponent. SNC also has a slight problem of losing to Knox, who STU beat, though it's fair to also note SNC was 1-1 against Knox and just lost the more important game.

It's just not as straight forward as people would like it to be, and it's never going to be straight forward for that last spot or three.
I agree with you that "it's never going to be straight forward for that last spot or three."  That's why it's important to keep the process as transparent as possible. This past weekend prior to the selections I had a conversation with a current player on a "bubble team" who said, "I'm not worried, our coach is on the committee. He's gong to make sure we get in." And they are.   A system were players believe (rightly or wrongly) their coach can pull the necessary strings to get in definitely needs examination.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 06, 2018, 08:18:33 PM
That player is completely misinformed or under completely the wrong impression.

His coach would have been completely removed from the process (whether it was regional or national) WHENEVER the team was discussed.

First off if the coach was on a regional committee, his "influence" would have been minimal at best. Even if he did try to lobby, each member of the committee then votes on their own on a computer - that influence ends once the voters hit the computers. Then, the regional rankings go to the national committee who will and have changed regional rankings if they don't agree with them. The regional committees only advise. The national committee can ignore it completely.

Second - if the coach is on the national committee, a couple of things:
- He wouldn't have voted in the regional rankings to begin with (while also being removed from the discussions as well).
- The NCAA liaison or committee chair (or both) would remove the coach from the national discussion (replacing him with another member of the regional committee) if his team was involved. There have been coaches who are chairs of committees who didn't participate in nearly the entire conversation about selections and/or are completely removed from bracketing so there is no influence or early information.

This student very likely has no idea what he is talking about. I certainly am not going to have his interpretation of their chances over how I know the system works. That player needs to be better educated. That isn't on the system, that's on people understanding how it works and teaching others. I know coaches who explain these things to their athletes; I know others who don't.

There are plenty of us who do educate, but we are shockingly ignored as well.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on November 07, 2018, 09:05:00 AM
Dave,  I really appreciate the informative posts...  +K again.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 07, 2018, 08:16:24 PM
Quote from: Londoner on November 06, 2018, 05:30:59 PM
Following on from D3Grad, thought I'd drop some thoughts here also.

As a former player in the West Region I CANNOT believe that Southwestern were put in above Claremont. Somebody has already raised this, but I see absolutely no reason aside from saving money by not having to fly another team from California that Claremont missed out. Their defensive record this year speaks for itself and when you take into account everything else on their resume I can't  legislate for Southwestern jumping to #1 in the region. That's madness. But I will say its a huge moment for the southwestern program (who are vastly improved in recent years)  and a great opportunity for them to make a name for themselves. Though a team that will really hold a grudge on this will be Colorado College who have been overlooked in the past for a pool C bid with better candidacy than Southwestern has this year. Colorado's island status in the D3 landscape hurts them.

The D3 landscape is obviously heavily geographically slanted towards the eastern side of the country, but I will say that it was (and is) infuriating to constantly see the West overlooked year on year on the national scale. Largely, this comes down to strength of schedule which for me is considered WAY too highly in the selection process. Budgets are not endless. West region schools often can't fly across the country multiple times a season to challenge UAA or NESCAC schools and most are also hamstrung by double round robin formats, or single round robin conferences with too many teams. The West typically getting just one Pool C each year is very harsh on a number of talented teams in the region that suffers purely based on being on an island - relatively speaking.


I do feel that CMS got screwed as I mean CMS ended up 4-1-0 RvR and in the West that is like going 7-1-0 RvR in New England. I suppose as D-MAC has suggested it is possible that the committee already looks at the RvR more in depth than just the actual record but who exactly you are beating that is ranked. They beat Redlands twice who was ranked #4 in the West and Occidental once who was ranked #6 and Macalester once as they were ranked #7 in Week 3. So those 4 ranked Wins are against the bottom of ranked teams so that could possibly be the only explanation. Still to me they would still be on the right side of the bubble so if you have 3-4 teams you are looking at to fill the last 1-2 spots in the tournament I really cannot believe that the money/flights issue would not be lurking in the back of the committee's mind. I really do not believe that the committee is trying "to spend money" as every organization is on some kind of a budget. I mean if there were not budget constraints then Trinity TX would be hosting Sweet 16 / Elite 8 pods most years instead of getting shipped out to wherever is geographically convenient and the "cheaper" option for the Committee. To me that is just as much malpractice as not selecting CMS or West teams because of concerns about money. Frankly had Trinity TX hosted all those Sweet 16 / Elite 8 pods when they were deserving who knows how many National Championships they would have won. Maybe one or two more?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: calvin_grad on November 07, 2018, 09:03:12 PM
Quote from: JimLahey on November 06, 2018, 03:54:13 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on November 06, 2018, 10:48:03 AM
Quote from: calvin_grad on November 06, 2018, 10:39:13 AM
Snow and ice and highs in the mid 30s this weekend for the games at Calvin.  :(

Since Calvin likely to be hosting both weekends do you see any chance the games will be moved to Hope as they were a few years ago?  What condition is the field in now?

How is hosting for the 2nd weekend determined?

I assume that geography is more important than ranking/record.  Calvin and the other teams they are hosting in the 1st weekend are from Michigan and Wisconsin.  The other teams they would play in the 2nd weekend are considerably east and fairly concentrated.  Case, JCU, and Kenyon are all in the greater Cleveland area (and maybe favorites to win this 1st weekend) and CMU, Westminster, and Capital are all nearby, so I would assume one of those schools would host the 2nd weekend.  I looked at flights to Lansing (which i assume is where teams would fly into to play Calvin) and they are much more expensive then a more major city like Cleveland/Pittsburgh.
I have no idea how the hosting would work, but teams would fly right into Grand Rapids, which is where Calvin is located.  It's the second biggest city in Michigan and generally cheaper to fly into GR than Lansing.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: PaulNewman on November 07, 2018, 09:41:39 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 07, 2018, 08:16:24 PM
Quote from: Londoner on November 06, 2018, 05:30:59 PM
Following on from D3Grad, thought I'd drop some thoughts here also.

As a former player in the West Region I CANNOT believe that Southwestern were put in above Claremont. Somebody has already raised this, but I see absolutely no reason aside from saving money by not having to fly another team from California that Claremont missed out. Their defensive record this year speaks for itself and when you take into account everything else on their resume I can't  legislate for Southwestern jumping to #1 in the region. That's madness. But I will say its a huge moment for the southwestern program (who are vastly improved in recent years)  and a great opportunity for them to make a name for themselves. Though a team that will really hold a grudge on this will be Colorado College who have been overlooked in the past for a pool C bid with better candidacy than Southwestern has this year. Colorado's island status in the D3 landscape hurts them.

The D3 landscape is obviously heavily geographically slanted towards the eastern side of the country, but I will say that it was (and is) infuriating to constantly see the West overlooked year on year on the national scale. Largely, this comes down to strength of schedule which for me is considered WAY too highly in the selection process. Budgets are not endless. West region schools often can't fly across the country multiple times a season to challenge UAA or NESCAC schools and most are also hamstrung by double round robin formats, or single round robin conferences with too many teams. The West typically getting just one Pool C each year is very harsh on a number of talented teams in the region that suffers purely based on being on an island - relatively speaking.


I do feel that CMS got screwed as I mean CMS ended up 4-1-0 RvR and in the West that is like going 7-1-0 RvR in New England. I suppose as D-MAC has suggested it is possible that the committee already looks at the RvR more in depth than just the actual record but who exactly you are beating that is ranked. They beat Redlands twice who was ranked #4 in the West and Occidental once who was ranked #6 and Macalester once as they were ranked #7 in Week 3. So those 4 ranked Wins are against the bottom of ranked teams so that could possibly be the only explanation. Still to me they would still be on the right side of the bubble so if you have 3-4 teams you are looking at to fill the last 1-2 spots in the tournament I really cannot believe that the money/flights issue would not be lurking in the back of the committee's mind. I really do not believe that the committee is trying "to spend money" as every organization is on some kind of a budget. I mean if there were not budget constraints then Trinity TX would be hosting Sweet 16 / Elite 8 pods most years instead of getting shipped out to wherever is geographically convenient and the "cheaper" option for the Committee. To me that is just as much malpractice as not selecting CMS or West teams because of concerns about money. Frankly had Trinity TX hosted all those Sweet 16 / Elite 8 pods when they were deserving who knows how many National Championships they would have won. Maybe one or two more?

I know it's time to move on from C-M-S but this is fascinating.  Just 2-3 days ago you suggested as a future idea to make things better consideration of upper half ranked wins/results versus lower half.  Now "d-mac" suggests that has been happening all along.  I've followed this site pretty closely for 5+ years and I've never seen anyone suggest that has been past and current operating procedure with soccer.  I don't buy it.  I get and can accept that the cmtes start fresh each week, but still, Southwestern was ranked #6 in the West in Week 3 (the week D3soccer experts consider to foreshadow selections) and jumped to #1.  C-M-S falls from #1 to #3.  C-M-S beat Southwestern on winning % AND ranked results.  There was a relatively small advantage to Southwestern on SoS. 

I can accept the idea that cmtes don't make decisions (on selections) based on limiting air flights.  I can accept that there is a reason for the decision regarding C-M-S that we don't know or understand.  I do not believe the cmte did a deep dive assessment of ranked wins and which ranked wins were better than others.  Again, no one other than one poster has made that suggestion, and one would think we would have seen that methodology playing out in other regions, including regions most of us are more familiar with and would noticed by now.  MANY times we have discussed the importance of so and so picking up a ranked win or losing a ranked win based on who cracks the rankings and who drops out, etc, etc.....but we have never explained a selection outcome based on as assessment of the relative quality of ranked results.  If that's the case, why stop there, and why not consider results that based on some quirk missed the rankings but the cmte can see they were legit results to consider nonetheless...and why not consider the inherent disadvantages of certain regions, as Mr.Right also has suggested, in weighting things differently (e.g. 3 ranked wins in the West might be equivalent to 5-6 wins in the Mid-Atlantic.  At any rate, I've never before see suggestions that such considerations have been in play already.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 08, 2018, 12:12:43 AM
Well done......+k......I think the Committee Chairs of the West(University of Dallas Head Coach) and South Atlantic Regions(Former Rowan Head Coach and current AD Dan Gilmore) and respective members  have really mucked up their respective regions as we have more questions than answers. I will say the South Atlantic finished strong as their final ranking was pretty much spot on but man their work on Week 3 was a full head scratch. More transparency with this whole process is sorely needed. I wonder who scrutinizes their work? If anyone..Is it just the top dog Brandon Bianco or is there anyone from the NCAA that is looking over their shoulders? I wonder if it is someone in Indy that is behind a desk that emails them a budget with a number not to go over and wipes their hands clean of any responsibility....

Wow...just saw C-M-S Head Coach Matt Edwards is on West committee....Talk about a slap in the face...So I am curious how this works...He is in on everything during their deliberations then the second C-M-S is brought up he must get off the call? Or is it because C-M-S is in the mixer Edwards cannot be involved at all?  If its the former that is a massive slap in the face.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: calvin_grad on November 08, 2018, 08:42:34 AM
2" inches of snow predicted for Grand Rapids on Friday, mostly falling in the morning and later at night.  Highs in the mid-30s with wind chills in the upper teens.  Perfect soccer weather for the Calvin sectional.   :o
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 08, 2018, 03:58:58 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 08, 2018, 12:12:43 AM
Well done......+k......I think the Committee Chairs of the West(University of Dallas Head Coach) and South Atlantic Regions(Former Rowan Head Coach and current AD Dan Gilmore) and respective members  have really mucked up their respective regions as we have more questions than answers. I will say the South Atlantic finished strong as their final ranking was pretty much spot on but man their work on Week 3 was a full head scratch. More transparency with this whole process is sorely needed. I wonder who scrutinizes their work? If anyone..Is it just the top dog Brandon Bianco or is there anyone from the NCAA that is looking over their shoulders? I wonder if it is someone in Indy that is behind a desk that emails them a budget with a number not to go over and wipes their hands clean of any responsibility....

Wow...just saw C-M-S Head Coach Matt Edwards is on West committee....Talk about a slap in the face...So I am curious how this works...He is in on everything during their deliberations then the second C-M-S is brought up he must get off the call? Or is it because C-M-S is in the mixer Edwards cannot be involved at all?  If its the former that is a massive slap in the face.

Remember something ... the regional committees can rank however they want, but the national committee can change it or throw it out. The regional committees only advise. I would caution throwing shade on the regional chairs of each region without knowing what the national committee did or not. Those chairs also guide, but do not dictate how those rankings are to go in their own regions. They may say, "the national committee stresses this; the national committee feels we are not ranking properly based on the criteria or what the rest of the committees are doing; etc." Those chairs, though, cannot say "rank so-and-so one, so-and-so two, etc." That is not allowed. Many regional chairs I know will also ask for each voter's point of view on their vote simply so they can present the arguments to the national committee. The info is sent to the regional chairs after the vote is tabulated, so there is no changing of the vote (it is locked in once a cmte member is done voting). The national committee may, probably, reorder things, but they won't change the vote of regional members.

I do wish maybe D3soccer took the time to form a relationship with the committees and members and even talked to them on the record. It appears maybe they do not (without pouring through the website to check). We have found these relationships invaluable at D3football, D3hoops, D3baseball, etc. (as I talk to other sports like lacrosse and even higher up in the Championships Committee and above) and educational. We stress to the committees we want help in making the process transparent. They usually have the same opinion back. They understand we are going to ask particular questions and those committees can then answer. Some of those conversations also take place off the record which at the very least helps us present information and understanding moving forward.

If anyone at D3soccer is reading this ... I would strongly consider striking up relationships with at least the national committee. I have known the chairs of past committees (and current). I may dive into this, but only if I can balance everything else I am doing in the fall and while not being a member of the D3soccer group.

Per CMS - he can be involved in anything and everything until his team is discussed, then he either has to hangup or mute the phone. Once his team is no longer being discussed, he can rejoin the call. That is just the regional call. He would never be involved in the national call - except if he somehow was the back-up to the West Region chair should they have to remove themselves because their team is involved. This is assuming the Dallas coach has his team ahead of CMS - it is impossible to have both of them off the call. (And I am creating a scenario where the CMS coach might be involved in the national call; I have no clue who the West Region back-up would be IF Dallas would make it to the table.)

Let me also clarify something ... I've been told by a number of committees in a number of sports that they break the vRRO down to look at who was played, ranked, etc. That does not mean EVERYONE does it or the degree of how they do it is the same (no committee does these things exactly the same way; it is designed to present variable ways of reading the data). I just know that it is something discussed amongst committee chairs (they meet every two years; they met this September in Indy) and that a number of committees do that kind of breakdown. If soccer is not doing it, I would be disappointed.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on November 09, 2018, 03:39:57 PM
So, the single 16-team ECAC Tournament (http://www.ecacsports.com/documents/2018/11/5//Men_s_DIII_Soccer_Bracket.pdf?id=1430) kicks off today as well (up until a few years ago they did three or four regional tournaments of 6 or 8 teams each).  According to the ECAC website, 33 teams declared for the tournament (http://www.ecacsports.com/sports/2017/9/27/2017%20MSoccer%20Declared%20Teams.aspx?id=3227&) this year.  This declaration happens prior to completion of conference tournaments and the announcement of the NCAA at-large berths.  Ends up five of the declared teams made the NCAA tournament (3 by AQ, 2 by Pool C at-large berth). 

Interesting to note that Brandeis and Ithaca both declared but neither is among the 16 teams participating.  Turned down by the ECAC?  Ouch!  Unless they changed their minds and withdrew.   Don't see how you don't take Ithaca if they want in.  Brandeis, being sub-.500 maybe is understandable. 

Back-to-back champion Lebanon Valley did not declare so they could go for the three-peat.  Wonder why not.  Up to four more competitive games for your players (especially the underclassmen).  I understand why Messiah wouldn't have declared back in 2015, but any program trying to get to the next level and become relevant and become an NCAA tournament team should be taking advantage of the chance to get in some more competitive games, right?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 1970s NESCAC Player on November 09, 2018, 04:19:54 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 09, 2018, 03:39:57 PM
So, the single 16-team ECAC Tournament (http://www.ecacsports.com/documents/2018/11/5//Men_s_DIII_Soccer_Bracket.pdf?id=1430) kicks off today as well (up until a few years ago they did three or four regional tournaments of 6 or 8 teams each).  According to the ECAC website, 33 teams declared for the tournament (http://www.ecacsports.com/sports/2017/9/27/2017%20MSoccer%20Declared%20Teams.aspx?id=3227&) this year.  This declaration happens prior to completion of conference tournaments and the announcement of the NCAA at-large berths.  Ends up five of the declared teams made the NCAA tournament (3 by AQ, 2 by Pool C at-large berth). 

Interesting to note that Brandeis and Ithaca both declared but neither is among the 16 teams participating.  Turned down by the ECAC?  Ouch!  Unless they changed their minds and withdrew.   Don't see how you don't take Ithaca if they want in.  Brandeis, being sub-.500 maybe is understandable. 

Back-to-back champion Lebanon Valley did not declare so they could go for the three-peat.  Wonder why not.  Up to four more competitive games for your players (especially the underclassmen).  I understand why Messiah wouldn't have declared back in 2015, but any program trying to get to the next level and become relevant and become an NCAA tournament team should be taking advantage of the chance to get in some more competitive games, right?

Thanks for the interesting info FW, but this may be only partially correct.  As you will note, (unless I misread), there are no New England teams or Capital Region upstate NY teams in the bracket.  In the past, these two regions have had their own ECAC tournaments.  The bracket you linked to may just be an expanded ECAC tournament for the other geographic regions that have traditionally participated.  It could well be that the New England and Upstate NY regions could not put together a large enough quality field based upon the limited declarants.  I don't recall that Upstate NY has had a tournament in approximately a decade.

On the other hand, you may be entirely correct that the New England teams and Ithaca either withdrew or were rejected . . .
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on November 09, 2018, 04:35:01 PM
You may be on to something there.  I really have no idea and no insight.  I do know that it's just been a single tournament for few years now.

Medaille (Rochester, NY) is in which is further away than Ithaca.  There are six NYC metro area teams (Manhattanville, New Rochelle, SUNY Maritime, William Paterson, Rutgers-Newark and Drew) but, beyond that up into New England, only Brandeis and Maine Maritime declared and did not get into the NCAA's (Springfield declared but ended up winning the AQ).
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: lastguyoffthebench on November 09, 2018, 06:36:19 PM
You need to have over.500 win percentage.  Maybe that changed, but it would be a reason why no Brandeis... 

Muhlenberg left out and also under.500 so my guess is that is still a requirement
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: luckylefty on November 09, 2018, 09:33:26 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 09, 2018, 03:39:57 PM
So, the single 16-team ECAC Tournament (http://www.ecacsports.com/documents/2018/11/5//Men_s_DIII_Soccer_Bracket.pdf?id=1430) kicks off today as well (up until a few years ago they did three or four regional tournaments of 6 or 8 teams each).  According to the ECAC website, 33 teams declared for the tournament (http://www.ecacsports.com/sports/2017/9/27/2017%20MSoccer%20Declared%20Teams.aspx?id=3227&) this year.  This declaration happens prior to completion of conference tournaments and the announcement of the NCAA at-large berths.  Ends up five of the declared teams made the NCAA tournament (3 by AQ, 2 by Pool C at-large berth). 

Interesting to note that Brandeis and Ithaca both declared but neither is among the 16 teams participating.  Turned down by the ECAC?  Ouch!  Unless they changed their minds and withdrew.   Don't see how you don't take Ithaca if they want in.  Brandeis, being sub-.500 maybe is understandable. 

Back-to-back champion Lebanon Valley did not declare so they could go for the three-peat.  Wonder why not.  Up to four more competitive games for your players (especially the underclassmen).  I understand why Messiah wouldn't have declared back in 2015, but any program trying to get to the next level and become relevant and become an NCAA tournament team should be taking advantage of the chance to get in some more competitive games, right?

The ECAC tournament can be tough.  Obviously in an ideal setting it's a valuable thing for your team, but imagine how difficult it is for 20 year old kids to get excited about it.  They started the year with a goal of winning a championship and making the tournament, worked hard every day in the offseason, made huge sacrifices and then they come up short of their goal.  Two days later they have to turn around and get over their disappointment and play in a tournament they don't want to be in anyway.  It's a difficult thing for teams to do, and I think it's the reason some teams opt out.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 10, 2018, 12:42:07 AM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on November 09, 2018, 04:35:01 PM
Medaille (Rochester, NY) is in which is further away than Ithaca.

Medaille's original and main campus is in Buffalo, not Rochester. That's where the athletic facilities are located and the Mavericks teams are based.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on November 10, 2018, 12:49:53 AM
Biggest reason the ECAC has schools "missing" and what not ... schools are waning in interest of staying involved with the ECAC ... and some decide the "carrot" can only go so far.

Let's start with the second one... some programs use it as a carrot to help teams prepare and get used to making the NCAA Tournament. Play in a few ECACs and continue improving and one day they make the big dance. Sometimes, programs decide, the carrot got them only so far and now missing out altogether maybe sends a better message and lights a fire under the team for the future. School dependent of course.

The first part ... the ECACs have been in trouble in all sports for some time (even though, football was fine, the ECAC messed with it for no reason and now it's in trouble). More and more schools have looked at the money spent to be a part of the ECACs ($2500 a year or so) for the chance to be in tournaments, but then they don't get much in return. They have to pay their own expenses in the tournaments (including hosting costs that are not reimbursed) and the justification was starting to wane - especially in economic tight times that college and universities are currently in and have been for several years now. Add in the overall feeling the ECAC had started to ignore DIII and basically use the money coming in for other reasons.

As a result, a number of things have happened in recent years. ECAC has lost a lot of DIII members including the entire hockey block - all those conferences have formed their own or been adopted by parent conferences (the conferences schools already reside in). There is no more ECAC hockey for DIII.

Schools also started backing out of playing in ECAC tournaments or even hosting. I can't tell you how many 5, 6, 7-seed teams were hosting the championship weekends (thanks, in part, to upsets) because the top seeds didn't want to host any more. The costs couldn't be justified.

Not that long ago the dues for the NCAA were $900 a year for a school. The post-season tournaments - participation and hosting - are basically paid for. Now, those dues have gone up to about $2000 a year (in an overwhelming vote in favor by DIII institutions) ... and yet, still, tournaments are being paid for. So, you pay $2500 to the ECAC for ... awards?

Now, the ECAC has added a "dues for a specific sports tournament" allowing schools to just pay for each sport they want to play in. They don't have to make the decision at the start of the season, but at the time of the tournament. It isn't making a difference. Multiple sports that had four or five regional brackets are down to one or two overall ... and ECAC is scrambling.

First (bigger mistake) was they screwed around with football. Absolutely botched the ONLY thing no one had a problem with ... and subsequently lost two conferences, followed by three more, and then additional two. They are down to three bowl games and barely have good teams for that.

The second mistake was to try and consolidate the basketball tournaments into one NIT-esque tournament and play it out over three weeks. They asked permission from the NCAA. It was denied and now they are in a tougher spot.

All this as the ECAC has been hemorrhaging money ... they have had to allow sub .500 teams into some tournaments ...

I could go on and on. My point: not surprised a number of teams are missing or starting to decide it isn't worth being in the ECACs anymore.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TyWebb on November 27, 2018, 05:43:27 PM
United Soccer Coaches Award Central for All Regions:

https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/web/Awards/Awards_Central/web/Awards/Awards_Central_2018.aspx?hkey=a6159cd0-434d-4d80-8a85-433d7524d2fe
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 30, 2018, 08:14:03 AM
All-American selections are out: https://unitedsoccercoaches.org/web/web/News/Articles/November_2018/United_Soccer_Coaches_Reveals_NCAA_Division_III_All-America_Teams.aspx
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: truenorth on November 30, 2018, 08:32:59 AM
If you use this as the measuring stick, Calvin (3 All Americans) and Chicago (2) should have it all over Tufts and Rochester (1 each) in the final.  Also, interesting to note that only 4 of the 49 All Americans are from New England schools, despite the heavy concentration of D3 schools in New England.  Must mean the non-New England schools do a much better job of recruiting top shelf talent...
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TyWebb on November 30, 2018, 10:09:45 AM
Quote from: truenorth on November 30, 2018, 08:32:59 AM
Also, interesting to note that only 4 of the 49 All Americans are from New England schools, despite the heavy concentration of D3 schools in New England.  Must mean the non-New England schools do a much better job of recruiting top shelf talent...

I counted six from the New England region: Marcucci-Conn C., Braun-Tufts, Greenspan-Babson, Gaumer-St. Joe's Maine, Niang-Bowdoin, Igo-Salve Regina.

I don't agree with your assessment of other regions doing a better job recruiting top talent (maybe that was tongue-in-cheek??). I am guessing that when choosing these All-American
teams, there is an eye to balanced representation throughout all 8 regions with many worthy candidates from each.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Ejay on November 30, 2018, 10:13:08 AM
What a joke. I have a huge issue with these teams.  8/15 on first team are forwards? If you have to go to 15 players, why load up on forwards if every school plays with fewer forwards than midfielders and defenders.  Forward would be the least deserving of extra spots.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: blooter442 on November 30, 2018, 10:16:24 AM
I have my own thoughts about some of the selections being "interesting," but one I was impressed by was Groothoff. Everyone knows I am a Groothoff fan but this is a kid who played CM in high school and played very well at CB as a 5'11" freshman. First Messiah FY AA since Kai Kasiguran.

Also, I don't think we can say that Ruiz-Plaza isn't appreciated anymore. That may have been tongue-in-cheek, but, still.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Gregory Sager on November 30, 2018, 10:47:11 AM
Congratulations to North Park senior CB Ricky Pimentel and sophomore midfielder Peder Olsen upon being named to the 2018 USC All-American team. This marks the first time that NPU has placed two players on a USC A-A squad.

This was an historic year for Olsen, as he became the first player in CCIW history to lead the league in goals and assists within the span of a career ... and he did both in the same season.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NEsoccerfan on November 30, 2018, 10:54:53 AM
Quote from: EB2319 on November 30, 2018, 10:13:08 AM
What a joke. I have a huge issue with these teams.  8/15 on first team are forwards? If you have to go to 15 players, why load up on forwards if every school plays with fewer forwards than midfielders and defenders.  Forward would be the least deserving of extra spots.

Solid point.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Mr.Right on November 30, 2018, 10:55:03 AM
Conn College GK AJ Marcucci as a Soph gets 1st team AA.....Along with Groothoff is very impressive....Now they both have the next 2 and 3 years respectively to live up to those expectations......
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: FelixCloudy on November 30, 2018, 05:12:32 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 30, 2018, 10:55:03 AM
Conn College GK AJ Marcucci as a Soph gets 1st team AA.....Along with Groothoff is very impressive....Now they both have the next 2 and 3 years respectively to live up to those expectations......

Marucci had a great year - ranked first in save % and 2nd in GAA, and 10th in shutouts.  Talented kid, rocked it with his back line. However, I completely don't get the second or third team keeper picks.  Any idea what the criteria for GK AA picks are?  Other than they are first team regional winners in 3 separate regions (NE, East and South Atlantic?)
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: truenorth on November 30, 2018, 08:01:54 PM
Quote from: TyWebb on November 30, 2018, 10:09:45 AM
Quote from: truenorth on November 30, 2018, 08:32:59 AM
Also, interesting to note that only 4 of the 49 All Americans are from New England schools, despite the heavy concentration of D3 schools in New England.  Must mean the non-New England schools do a much better job of recruiting top shelf talent...

I counted six from the New England region: Marcucci-Conn C., Braun-Tufts, Greenspan-Babson, Gaumer-St. Joe's Maine, Niang-Bowdoin, Igo-Salve Regina.

I don't agree with your assessment of other regions doing a better job recruiting top talent (maybe that was tongue-in-cheek??). I am guessing that when choosing these All-American
teams, there is an eye to balanced representation throughout all 8 regions with many worthy candidates from each.

My tally was obviously inaccurate Ty Webb, but my fundamental point still stands...and yes it was tongue in cheek...  I don't pretend to understand the dynamics in national polls or coaches' votes and selections...but there does appear to be disproportionate amount of love (relative to the number of schools and relative quality of programs) for the midwest.  I am admittedly a New Englander and a NESCAC fan, so I could be biased and inaccurate in my perceptions.  If so, please provide corrective data...
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: TyWebb on December 01, 2018, 11:24:29 AM
Quote from: truenorth on November 30, 2018, 08:01:54 PM
Quote from: TyWebb on November 30, 2018, 10:09:45 AM
Quote from: truenorth on November 30, 2018, 08:32:59 AM
Also, interesting to note that only 4 of the 49 All Americans are from New England schools, despite the heavy concentration of D3 schools in New England.  Must mean the non-New England schools do a much better job of recruiting top shelf talent...

I counted six from the New England region: Marcucci-Conn C., Braun-Tufts, Greenspan-Babson, Gaumer-St. Joe's Maine, Niang-Bowdoin, Igo-Salve Regina.

I don't agree with your assessment of other regions doing a better job recruiting top talent (maybe that was tongue-in-cheek??). I am guessing that when choosing these All-American
teams, there is an eye to balanced representation throughout all 8 regions with many worthy candidates from each.

My tally was obviously inaccurate Ty Webb, but my fundamental point still stands...and yes it was tongue in cheek...  I don't pretend to understand the dynamics in national polls or coaches' votes and selections...but there does appear to be disproportionate amount of love (relative to the number of schools and relative quality of programs) for the midwest.  I am admittedly a New Englander and a NESCAC fan, so I could be biased and inaccurate in my perceptions.  If so, please provide corrective data...

Truenorth, it sounds like we fall into the same camp at being biased towards New England schools, which was the impetus for me correcting your number chosen from the region. I have no corrective data to offer regarding a disproportionate amount of players chosen All-American relative to regions. The All-American selections do make for good debate while waiting for the semis to start.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: truenorth on December 01, 2018, 07:24:11 PM
Fair enough TyWebb...and it sounds like--given our admitted biases--we might each be gratified that a NESCAC/New England school managed to win the men's title today...  It will be interesting to see who prevails on the women's side between Williams and Middlebury...
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: d4_Pace on December 02, 2018, 10:22:45 AM
The All-American selections are absurd. The fact that Tufts only got 1 is a travesty.  Sterling was easily one of the top 3 outside backs in the country, shoutout to the Calvin freshmen right back who did a great job against tasker that kid will have a great career. But Tasker was easily one of the top wingers in the country and absolutely torched teams once Tufts got out of the NESCAC where he was targeted every game.

Finally, Biagio Paoletta is one of the best centerbacks in the country as a sophomore and an absolute warrior. Played the whole year with injuries including the calf injury yesterday. Definitely not one of Mr Right's two glove guys. 

The reality is NESCAC teams will never put up the stats of the other conferences but I think they have more than proven their place on the national stage. 
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: 1970s NESCAC Player on December 02, 2018, 11:19:39 AM
Quote from: d4_Pace on December 02, 2018, 10:22:45 AM
The All-American selections are absurd. The fact that Tufts only got 1 is a travesty.  Sterling was easily one of the top 3 outside backs in the country, shoutout to the Calvin freshmen right back who did a great job against tasker that kid will have a great career. But Tasker was easily one of the top wingers in the country and absolutely torched teams once Tufts got out of the NESCAC where he was targeted every game.

Finally, Biagio Paoletta is one of the best centerbacks in the country as a sophomore and an absolute warrior. Played the whole year with injuries including the calf injury yesterday. Definitely not one of Mr Right's two glove guys. 

The reality is NESCAC teams will never put up the stats of the other conferences but I think they have more than proven their place on the national stage.

Spot on d4P!
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: Flying Weasel on December 08, 2018, 08:45:57 AM
Since no one posted it all yesterday . . .

Though certainly not a given, but also hardly surprising . . . Messiah's senior forward Nick West has been named USC Player of the Year.  Messiah made the announcement Thursday evening.

https://gomessiah.com/news/2018/12/7/mens-soccer-nick-west-honored-as-the-national-player-of-the-year.aspx
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: MaturinNYC on December 08, 2018, 04:23:50 PM
Quote from: Flying Weasel on December 08, 2018, 08:45:57 AM
Since no one posted it all yesterday . . .

Though certainly not a give, but also hardly surprising . . . Messiah's senior forward Nick West has been named USC Player of the Year.  Messiah made the announcement evening Thursday.

https://gomessiah.com/news/2018/12/7/mens-soccer-nick-west-honored-as-the-national-player-of-the-year.aspx

Congrats to Mr. West!  That's such a hard award to really prove, but in this case there can't be much doubt - 30 goals, wow.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: offside position on December 10, 2018, 11:15:10 AM
Quote from: FelixCloudy on November 30, 2018, 05:12:32 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 30, 2018, 10:55:03 AM
Conn College GK AJ Marcucci as a Soph gets 1st team AA.....Along with Groothoff is very impressive....Now they both have the next 2 and 3 years respectively to live up to those expectations......

Marucci had a great year - ranked first in save % and 2nd in GAA, and 10th in shutouts.  Talented kid, rocked it with his back line. However, I completely don't get the second or third team keeper picks.  Any idea what the criteria for GK AA picks are?  Other than they are first team regional winners in 3 separate regions (NE, East and South Atlantic?)

Good question Felix.  I think you do have to be 1st team All-Region for AA consideration.  But what are the criteria for GK picks in the regions?  I can tell you for the South Atlantic it is simple - just be named the ODAC 1st team GK.  SEVEN years in a row now by my count.  Stats don't support it. ODAC is certainly not the dominant conference in the region.  I don't really know what the process is, but it's safe to say there is a systemic problem that continues to be unfair to some deserving GK's (fortunately this site has recognized a couple).  I don't want to get into specific seasons, but how does the kid from Mary Washington not make any All-Region team this year when it seems obvious he should have been 1st team?
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: FelixCloudy on December 12, 2018, 03:25:00 PM
Quote from: offside position on December 10, 2018, 11:15:10 AM
Quote from: FelixCloudy on November 30, 2018, 05:12:32 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 30, 2018, 10:55:03 AM
Conn College GK AJ Marcucci as a Soph gets 1st team AA.....Along with Groothoff is very impressive....Now they both have the next 2 and 3 years respectively to live up to those expectations......

Marucci had a great year - ranked first in save % and 2nd in GAA, and 10th in shutouts.  Talented kid, rocked it with his back line. However, I completely don't get the second or third team keeper picks.  Any idea what the criteria for GK AA picks are?  Other than they are first team regional winners in 3 separate regions (NE, East and South Atlantic?)

Good question Felix.  I think you do have to be 1st team All-Region for AA consideration.  But what are the criteria for GK picks in the regions?  I can tell you for the South Atlantic it is simple - just be named the ODAC 1st team GK.  SEVEN years in a row now by my count.  Stats don't support it. ODAC is certainly not the dominant conference in the region.  I don't really know what the process is, but it's safe to say there is a systemic problem that continues to be unfair to some deserving GK's (fortunately this site has recognized a couple).  I don't want to get into specific seasons, but how does the kid from Mary Washington not make any All-Region team this year when it seems obvious he should have been 1st team?
I agree that AA's are selected from the 1st all region teams - and just a WAG, but as only seniors were chosen for the all region GK's in the South Atlantic, the stellar season by the UMW sophomore GK didn't get recongized.  Do you think a player's class year did affect the SA all region selection?  Comparing GK's even within a region is fraught with difficulty as SV% and GAA stats don't tell the whole story...but it may be that sophomore GK's have to prove they can consistently play at a stellar level over multiple seasons?  Obviously not true in New England as Marucci is a sophomore, but he had started and played very well his freshman year as well.  Perhaps the coaches in the SA want more than one season in net for a GK to be considered for an all region pick (the UMW GK only played one game last season).  But honestly, I am simply guessing.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: offside position on December 13, 2018, 09:26:56 AM
Quote from: FelixCloudy on December 12, 2018, 03:25:00 PM
Quote from: offside position on December 10, 2018, 11:15:10 AM
Quote from: FelixCloudy on November 30, 2018, 05:12:32 PM
Quote from: Mr.Right on November 30, 2018, 10:55:03 AM
Conn College GK AJ Marcucci as a Soph gets 1st team AA.....Along with Groothoff is very impressive....Now they both have the next 2 and 3 years respectively to live up to those expectations......

Marucci had a great year - ranked first in save % and 2nd in GAA, and 10th in shutouts.  Talented kid, rocked it with his back line. However, I completely don't get the second or third team keeper picks.  Any idea what the criteria for GK AA picks are?  Other than they are first team regional winners in 3 separate regions (NE, East and South Atlantic?)

Good question Felix.  I think you do have to be 1st team All-Region for AA consideration.  But what are the criteria for GK picks in the regions?  I can tell you for the South Atlantic it is simple - just be named the ODAC 1st team GK.  SEVEN years in a row now by my count.  Stats don't support it. ODAC is certainly not the dominant conference in the region.  I don't really know what the process is, but it's safe to say there is a systemic problem that continues to be unfair to some deserving GK's (fortunately this site has recognized a couple).  I don't want to get into specific seasons, but how does the kid from Mary Washington not make any All-Region team this year when it seems obvious he should have been 1st team?
I agree that AA's are selected from the 1st all region teams - and just a WAG, but as only seniors were chosen for the all region GK's in the South Atlantic, the stellar season by the UMW sophomore GK didn't get recongized.  Do you think a player's class year did affect the SA all region selection?  Comparing GK's even within a region is fraught with difficulty as SV% and GAA stats don't tell the whole story...but it may be that sophomore GK's have to prove they can consistently play at a stellar level over multiple seasons?  Obviously not true in New England as Marucci is a sophomore, but he had started and played very well his freshman year as well.  Perhaps the coaches in the SA want more than one season in net for a GK to be considered for an all region pick (the UMW GK only played one game last season).  But honestly, I am simply guessing.

I would be okay if the award consistently leaned toward upperclassmen in the absence of a clear standout, but that's not happening here.  ODAC sophomore GKs were 1st team South Atlantic in 2015 and 2016, and in both of those years there was at least one proven, deserving senior in the mix from another conference.  I realize there is more than SV% and GAA to consider, but should we believe ODAC GKs have some sort of monopoly on intangible qualities?  No, I'm sticking to my premise that something is broken. 

p.s. I was glad to see the senior from R-C get recognition this year.  He had to do A LOT of work in 4 years.
Title: Re: 2018 Season - National Perspective
Post by: NESCAC43 on December 25, 2018, 12:09:05 PM
Merry Christmas to everyone and their families! Have a blessed New Year and can't wait for the 2019 season.