Are the Purple Powers bad for D3?

Started by bleedpurple, December 19, 2011, 07:42:49 PM

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Are the purple powers bad for D3?

Yes
36 (35.3%)
No
66 (64.7%)

Total Members Voted: 96

02 Warhawk

Quote from: AO on January 10, 2012, 01:16:42 PM
Quote from: badgerwarhawk on January 10, 2012, 01:08:00 PM
Quote from: AO on January 10, 2012, 12:04:58 PM
So, elect or convince some legislators who will let Whitewater do things they feel is in their own best interest.   

The funny thing about that is that the administration and athletic department have already determined that it is not in our best interests to participate at a scholarship level.   Our best interests are served by participating in D3.  What you and some others in this topic seem to feel is that it is in the rest of D3's best interests if we move to a scholarship level.
they might feel differently if the rules were different.  It is certainly in D3's best interest to keep a strong program like Whitewater around, but I feel the school and student-athletes would benefit more from playing better competition for more money and exposure.

Whitewater gets plenty of good competition in D3. Just ask Oshkosh, Stevens Point, NCC, Linfield, Mount Union...just to name a few.

Not every game Whitewater plays is a blow out. They still have to work very hard to succeed.

Jonny Utah

Quote from: 02 Warhawk on January 10, 2012, 01:14:08 PM
Quote from: Jonny "Utes" Utah on January 10, 2012, 12:55:24 PM
Quote from: ExTartanPlayer on January 10, 2012, 12:46:43 PM
Quote from: AO on January 10, 2012, 12:04:58 PM
So, elect or convince some legislators who will let Whitewater do things they feel is in their own best interest.  Does Green Bay and Milwaukee having D-1 schools hurt Oshkosh?  It seems to me there's a fairly significant amount of scholarship quality football players in the state of wisconsin that are forced to go elsewhere if they can't get an offer from the badgers.

What makes you so certain that it is in Whitewater's best interest to do so?

Even if we assume that there are enough scholarship-quality players for UW-Whitewater to compete at the Division I level, there's a lot more at stake here than just the competitive success of the football team.

As badgerwarhawk just said, UWW is a public university.  You make it sound so simple - just convince the legislators to let one of the state-run universities to go off and do its own thing.  To make it sound that simple suggests that you really don't grasp exactly how public universities work, but let's play along for a moment.

Even if it were that simple, and UWW had official approval to do what it wanted, there would be the complicated matter of funding a Division I sports program.  Remember, the vast majority of Division I athletics programs LOSE money (in some cases, quite a bit of it).  Most of them lose millions a year on the football program.  Where are these millions going to come from to support a full-scholarship program at Whitewater?  Do you really think that thousands of alums are going to come streaming out of the woodwork and donate thousands of their hard-earned dollars?  Some might, to be sure, but how many realistically can afford a significant donation?  How many millionaire alums of UWW are there?  How many of those millionaries will decide to pony up a big donation to support a guaranteed money-loser just for the sake of school pride?

This reminds me of the whole Nescac issue.  So many people complain about the nescac schools and what they can or should do.  Sure, the nescac could join the rest of d3, but they don't, and they don't want to.

The UWW situation is the same.  If they wanted to go 1-AA, they could.  They don't, so they don't.



Did you even read what badgerwarhawk just posted before you posted this?

Quote from: badgerwarhawk on January 10, 2012, 11:55:26 AM
The last chancellor at Stevens Point proposed it and it went absolutely nowhere.  Even if we could independently raise the money it would take an act of the legislature for it to happen and it would have to be a league wide change.  As a public school UW-WHITEWATER [and the rest of the WIAC] isn't going anywhere by itself. 

Right, obviously it isn't up to an individual state school to make such a large change.  It wouldn't have to be a league wide change though.

smedindy

Quote from: AO on January 10, 2012, 01:16:42 PM
Quote from: badgerwarhawk on January 10, 2012, 01:08:00 PM
Quote from: AO on January 10, 2012, 12:04:58 PM
So, elect or convince some legislators who will let Whitewater do things they feel is in their own best interest.   

The funny thing about that is that the administration and athletic department have already determined that it is not in our best interests to participate at a scholarship level.   Our best interests are served by participating in D3.  What you and some others in this topic seem to feel is that it is in the rest of D3's best interests if we move to a scholarship level.
they might feel differently if the rules were different.  It is certainly in D3's best interest to keep a strong program like Whitewater around, but I feel the school and student-athletes would benefit more from playing better competition for more money and exposure.

More exposure? I don't see 1-AA games on ESPN until the playoffs, same as D-3.

The rules are in place so scholarship shenanigans don't happen. I feel what you're advocating could impact UW-W and the WIAC in a negative way.

Also, moving up classes could just as easily have adverse affects. Look at Florida A&M. They tried to go D-1A and ran back to D-1AA.

Morris Brown went bankrupt when they moved to D-1.

And when I spoke to folks at Birmingham Southern (when they were at Ave Maria) and they love being D-3 because it fits their entire athletics program. They had no idea why they even tried to compete in D-1.

AO

#393
Quote from: smedindy on January 10, 2012, 02:46:19 PM
Quote from: AO on January 10, 2012, 01:16:42 PM
Quote from: badgerwarhawk on January 10, 2012, 01:08:00 PM
Quote from: AO on January 10, 2012, 12:04:58 PM
So, elect or convince some legislators who will let Whitewater do things they feel is in their own best interest.   

The funny thing about that is that the administration and athletic department have already determined that it is not in our best interests to participate at a scholarship level.   Our best interests are served by participating in D3.  What you and some others in this topic seem to feel is that it is in the rest of D3's best interests if we move to a scholarship level.
they might feel differently if the rules were different.  It is certainly in D3's best interest to keep a strong program like Whitewater around, but I feel the school and student-athletes would benefit more from playing better competition for more money and exposure.

More exposure? I don't see 1-AA games on ESPN until the playoffs, same as D-3.

The rules are in place so scholarship shenanigans don't happen. I feel what you're advocating could impact UW-W and the WIAC in a negative way.

Also, moving up classes could just as easily have adverse affects. Look at Florida A&M. They tried to go D-1A and ran back to D-1AA.

Morris Brown went bankrupt when they moved to D-1.

And when I spoke to folks at Birmingham Southern (when they were at Ave Maria) and they love being D-3 because it fits their entire athletics program. They had no idea why they even tried to compete in D-1.
Yes, more exposure.  FCS has multiple rounds on ESPN, and all playoff games are at least ESPN3.  Regular season games are also frequently televised and the games against BCS schools also obviously generate much more exposure than any d3 game.

Birmingham-Southern and Whitewater don't seem to me to be similarly situated.

smedindy

Except that the nascent BSU program is already of high-caliber and is sitting in as rich of a football area as Wisconsin, with a lot less competition for the athletes who may not be up to SEC play but want a top notch education along with an excellent football experience.


AO

Quote from: smedindy on January 10, 2012, 04:02:32 PM
Except that the nascent BSU program is already of high-caliber and is sitting in as rich of a football area as Wisconsin, with a lot less competition for the athletes who may not be up to SEC play but want a top notch education along with an excellent football experience.
Maybe BSU would want to move their football program up in the future.  There certainly are a lot of small D-1 football teams in the area that seem to be pretty happy with their division.  If we're going to compare them to Whitewater now let's list the fcs-sized enrollment, stadium and attendance.

HScoach

Quote from: badgerwarhawk on January 10, 2012, 01:08:00 PM
Quote from: AO on January 10, 2012, 12:04:58 PM
So, elect or convince some legislators who will let Whitewater do things they feel is in their own best interest.   

The funny thing about that is that the administration and athletic department have already determined that it is not in our best interests to participate at a scholarship level.   Our best interests are served by participating in D3.  What you and some others in this topic seem to feel is that it is in the rest of D3's best interests if we move to a scholarship level.

Warhawks fans:  Congrats! UWW has officially joined Mount Union at the pinnacle of D3.  As evidenced by effort people spend trying to move them out of D3 instead of trying to beat them.  We've been listening to these arguments since the late 1990's.  Glad someone else has joined the party.

What I find interesting on the whole D4 debate is that the last time it came up, Mount would have fallen in the lower category.  Not the higher.     Which probably isn't the case now with enrollment above 2,000 and the facilities that have been built in the last 10-15 years, but when it originally was discussed Mount would have moved down. 
I find easily offended people rather offensive!

Statistics are like bikinis; what they reveal is interesting, what they hide is essential.

jknezek

I've seen very few people advocating that either UMU or UWW move to a different division. I have, however, seen a lot of posts by the same posters repeating it again and again. Such is the price of success I suppose!

emma17

Quote from: HScoach on January 10, 2012, 05:23:31 PM
Quote from: badgerwarhawk on January 10, 2012, 01:08:00 PM
Quote from: AO on January 10, 2012, 12:04:58 PM
So, elect or convince some legislators who will let Whitewater do things they feel is in their own best interest.   

The funny thing about that is that the administration and athletic department have already determined that it is not in our best interests to participate at a scholarship level.   Our best interests are served by participating in D3.  What you and some others in this topic seem to feel is that it is in the rest of D3's best interests if we move to a scholarship level.

Warhawks fans:  Congrats! UWW has officially joined Mount Union at the pinnacle of D3.  As evidenced by effort people spend trying to move them out of D3 instead of trying to beat them.  We've been listening to these arguments since the late 1990's.  Glad someone else has joined the party.

What I find interesting on the whole D4 debate is that the last time it came up, Mount would have fallen in the lower category.  Not the higher.     Which probably isn't the case now with enrollment above 2,000 and the facilities that have been built in the last 10-15 years, but when it originally was discussed Mount would have moved down.

HS you can have this part of the success back- please take it!!
I'm flabbergasted at the amount of posting dedicated to an idea that has 0 interest. 
UWW does not win the Stagg because they are a DI school in DIII clothing.  They don't win because their stadium is bigger or because they have a large enrollment or because their average grade point is lower or because they are a state school.  All of these perceived advantages existed long, long ago before the letters UWW were ever mentioned on the national football scene.

This whole notion that somehow what UWW is doing is bad for others in DIII is just preposterous because it assumes UWW is somehow guaranteed its current lofty football status.           
   

NCF

Quote from: 02 Warhawk on January 10, 2012, 01:24:31 PM
Quote from: AO on January 10, 2012, 01:16:42 PM
Quote from: badgerwarhawk on January 10, 2012, 01:08:00 PM
Quote from: AO on January 10, 2012, 12:04:58 PM
So, elect or convince some legislators who will let Whitewater do things they feel is in their own best interest.   

The funny thing about that is that the administration and athletic department have already determined that it is not in our best interests to participate at a scholarship level.   Our best interests are served by participating in D3.  What you and some others in this topic seem to feel is that it is in the rest of D3's best interests if we move to a scholarship level.
they might feel differently if the rules were different.  It is certainly in D3's best interest to keep a strong program like Whitewater around, but I feel the school and student-athletes would benefit more from playing better competition for more money and exposure.

Whitewater gets plenty of good competition in D3. Just ask Oshkosh, Stevens Point, NCC, Linfield, Mount Union...just to name a few.

Not every game Whitewater plays is a blow out. They still have to work very hard to succeed.

Agreed. All of those teams have had their chances and one of these days one(or more) of them will succeed. I'm hoping next year is the one!  :D
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smedindy

Quote from: AO on January 10, 2012, 04:24:22 PM
Quote from: smedindy on January 10, 2012, 04:02:32 PM
Except that the nascent BSU program is already of high-caliber and is sitting in as rich of a football area as Wisconsin, with a lot less competition for the athletes who may not be up to SEC play but want a top notch education along with an excellent football experience.
Maybe BSU would want to move their football program up in the future.  There certainly are a lot of small D-1 football teams in the area that seem to be pretty happy with their division.  If we're going to compare them to Whitewater now let's list the fcs-sized enrollment, stadium and attendance.

You didn't read what I posted. BSU's athletics department and fans want nothing to do with D-1. They've been there, done that and they like where they are now.

DGPugh

Smed- perhaps now, but the revolt at BSC when they went from D-1 to D-3 echoed through the entire state of alabama. They found by dropping D-1 and going to D-3 they added more sports and improved facilities, so the change has now softened, but we heard it for a year.
keep the faith
"Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes." 
Ephesians 6:11

smedindy

I spoke to the fans and parents of the football program when I saw them this year over in Ft. Myers. They were quite happy with their D-3 experience. And by adding opportunities, they did it for the right reasons.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: AO on January 10, 2012, 01:13:22 PM
Quote from: ExTartanPlayer on January 10, 2012, 12:46:43 PM
Quote from: AO on January 10, 2012, 12:04:58 PM
So, elect or convince some legislators who will let Whitewater do things they feel is in their own best interest.  Does Green Bay and Milwaukee having D-1 schools hurt Oshkosh?  It seems to me there's a fairly significant amount of scholarship quality football players in the state of wisconsin that are forced to go elsewhere if they can't get an offer from the badgers.

What makes you so certain that it is in Whitewater's best interest to do so?

Even if we assume that there are enough scholarship-quality players for UW-Whitewater to compete at the Division I level, there's a lot more at stake here than just the competitive success of the football team.

As badgerwarhawk just said, UWW is a public university.  You make it sound so simple - just convince the legislators to let one of the state-run universities to go off and do its own thing.  To make it sound that simple suggests that you really don't grasp exactly how public universities work, but let's play along for a moment.

Even if it were that simple, and UWW had official approval to do what it wanted, there would be the complicated matter of funding a Division I sports program.  Remember, the vast majority of Division I athletics programs LOSE money (in some cases, quite a bit of it).  Most of them lose millions a year on the football program.  Where are these millions going to come from to support a full-scholarship program at Whitewater?  Do you really think that thousands of alums are going to come streaming out of the woodwork and donate thousands of their hard-earned dollars?  Some might, to be sure, but how many realistically can afford a significant donation?  How many millionaire alums of UWW are there?  How many of those millionaries will decide to pony up a big donation to support a guaranteed money-loser just for the sake of school pride?
I'm not certain that they would want to move to D-1.  I'm just advocating that they should be able to.  As long as we're convincing legislators to make some changes, maybe we could convince the feds to get rid of title IX and the NCAA to allow Whitewater to move only it's football team to D-1 (obviously scholarship football players wouldn't also be able to play in the d3 sports).

OK, let's see if we can sort out all of the sweeping changes that you're proposing that various legislative bodies make. You're not only advocating that the Wisconsin state legislature change state law regarding the athletics status of its various UW branch campuses, you're also advocating that, in a completely separate maneuver, the NCAA rescind its unitary-athletics rule regarding divisional membership. And, finally, you're advocating that the U.S. Congress dispense with Title IX so that UW-Whitewater doesn't have to jettison its wrestling, men's tennis, and men's swimming teams in order to plow cash into what would then be a D1 football program. All of this just to feed your notion of how things should operate at a school that you don't attend, didn't attend, and don't root for. Anything else you want? A pony, perhaps? ::)

I agree with jknezek's rejoinder to HScoach:

Quote from: jknezek on January 10, 2012, 06:32:20 PM
I've seen very few people advocating that either UMU or UWW move to a different division. I have, however, seen a lot of posts by the same posters repeating it again and again.

Exactly right. It's the same one or two people saying the same thing over and over again, as if we didn't read it properly the first four times they said it.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

AO

Quote from: Gregory Sager on January 11, 2012, 12:00:54 AM
Quote from: AO on January 10, 2012, 01:13:22 PM
Quote from: ExTartanPlayer on January 10, 2012, 12:46:43 PM
Quote from: AO on January 10, 2012, 12:04:58 PM
So, elect or convince some legislators who will let Whitewater do things they feel is in their own best interest.  Does Green Bay and Milwaukee having D-1 schools hurt Oshkosh?  It seems to me there's a fairly significant amount of scholarship quality football players in the state of wisconsin that are forced to go elsewhere if they can't get an offer from the badgers.

What makes you so certain that it is in Whitewater's best interest to do so?

Even if we assume that there are enough scholarship-quality players for UW-Whitewater to compete at the Division I level, there's a lot more at stake here than just the competitive success of the football team.

As badgerwarhawk just said, UWW is a public university.  You make it sound so simple - just convince the legislators to let one of the state-run universities to go off and do its own thing.  To make it sound that simple suggests that you really don't grasp exactly how public universities work, but let's play along for a moment.

Even if it were that simple, and UWW had official approval to do what it wanted, there would be the complicated matter of funding a Division I sports program.  Remember, the vast majority of Division I athletics programs LOSE money (in some cases, quite a bit of it).  Most of them lose millions a year on the football program.  Where are these millions going to come from to support a full-scholarship program at Whitewater?  Do you really think that thousands of alums are going to come streaming out of the woodwork and donate thousands of their hard-earned dollars?  Some might, to be sure, but how many realistically can afford a significant donation?  How many millionaire alums of UWW are there?  How many of those millionaries will decide to pony up a big donation to support a guaranteed money-loser just for the sake of school pride?
I'm not certain that they would want to move to D-1.  I'm just advocating that they should be able to.  As long as we're convincing legislators to make some changes, maybe we could convince the feds to get rid of title IX and the NCAA to allow Whitewater to move only it's football team to D-1 (obviously scholarship football players wouldn't also be able to play in the d3 sports).

OK, let's see if we can sort out all of the sweeping changes that you're proposing that various legislative bodies make. You're not only advocating that the Wisconsin state legislature change state law regarding the athletics status of its various UW branch campuses, you're also advocating that, in a completely separate maneuver, the NCAA rescind its unitary-athletics rule regarding divisional membership. And, finally, you're advocating that the U.S. Congress dispense with Title IX so that UW-Whitewater doesn't have to jettison its wrestling, men's tennis, and men's swimming teams in order to plow cash into what would then be a D1 football program. All of this just to feed your notion of how things should operate at a school that you don't attend, didn't attend, and don't root for. Anything else you want? A pony, perhaps? ::)
Yes.

If administrators would not be tempted to move football to d-1 if the hurdles were removed, why do we have the hurdles?   If my reforms were put into place, would the other WIAC football squads be terribly hurt, women's sports be cut and whitewater's other d3 teams be given an insurmountable advantage?  Is it possible that the other WIAC schools might even get stronger with more d3 recruits left to pick from?  Why would Whitewater cut the women's teams if they don't cost more than they do currently and you'd have additional football generated money to spend on better facilities?  The other d3 teams remaining in the department would surely benefit from the football money, but many d3's already gain a big advantage through their wildly differing endowments or donation levels.  Here in Minnesota, St. Cloud State's D1 hockey team generates a million a year in profit that the rest of the department can spend on their d2 athletics, but they were still recently considering cutting the football program and none of their other sports seems to be very dominant compared to the other d2 schools that don't have that money to spend.