NESCAC

Started by LaPaz, September 11, 2011, 05:54:52 PM

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midwest

For what it's worth, Conn Coll recently started giving merit awards -- from its Common Data Set, the average non-need based award is about $13k and over 100 members of entering class got one. Trinity also gives a small number of merit awards.

amh63

#6466
Don't post much here.  Strange to see the mostly financial type of posts here.  Several comments on the matter.  "Merit" money is a term hard to define in the Nescac....especially wrt to Conn College and Trinity.....both schools with small Endownments in comparison to other Nescac schools.  Costs at conference schools are over 55k/yr plus room and board tacked on.  Amherst has a no loan policy; costs to educate each student is well over 100k plus/student.   It's endownment provide's the difference....thus each student gets merit money imo.....even those families that pay the listed costs.  International students that do not get US backed loans are included in Amherst's no loan policy....a now exclusive policy since Williams has recently taken a different position.  It is to be noted that Amherst has recently completed a new Science building...costing around 250 Million dollars.  It has Just started a 650 million dollar Capital Campaign for its third century.  Believe half of the goal has been reached after a recent 50 million donation...on top of a 100 million donation.  Expecting Amherst's Endownment to reach around 2.5 Billion in FY2018.  College financials are not always "clear".

PaulNewman

Quote from: amh63 on October 15, 2018, 05:36:11 PM
Don't post much here.  Strange to see the mostly financial type of posts here.  Several comments on the matter.  "Merit" money is a term hard to define in the Nescac....especially wrt to Conn College and Trinity.....both schools with small Endownments in comparison to other Nescac schools.  Costs at conference schools are over 55k/yr plus room and board tacked on.  Amherst has a no loan policy; costs to educate each student is well over 100k plus/student.   It's endownment provide's the difference....thus each student gets merit money imo.....even those families that pay the listed costs.  International students that do not get US backed loans are included in Amherst's no loan policy....a now exclusive policy since Williams has recently taken a different position.  It is to be noted that Amherst has recently completed a new Science building...costing around 250 Million dollars.  It has Just started a 650 million dollar Capital Campaign for its third century.  Believe half of the goal has been reached after a recent 50 million donation...on top of a 100 million donation.  Expecting Amherst's Endownment to reach around 2.5 Billion in FY2018.  College financials are not always "clear".

Not exactly sure what you're saying beyond Amherst being extremely wealthy and having an overall generous position wrt its students/families.

And am I reading this correctly....you're saying that if the retail price of a year at these colleges is now 65-70k but the actual cost to the schools is 105k, then in effect every student is at a minimum a "merit" award of 35-40k?  So by that framework are you saying/acknowledging that a school that also awards 15-20k per year IN ADDITION is essentially giving a double merit award???

As a consumer, if I am paying the full sticker price then IMO a 15-20k merit award does make a considerable difference.

Maybe I'm missing something but your post doesn't help me understand why a wealthier school wouldn't give official merit money when having the means to do so.  Other than wondering how "poorer" schools can afford it the incentive seems clear....like Conn and Trinity pulling students that otherwise they might lose to Colby or Bates or to other schools in the same range that DO offer merit money like Union, Denison, I'm guessing F&M does, Dickinson, Muhlenberg etc, etc.  Conn and Trinity IMO are in a very tough spot with competitors above and on the same plane or just tad below that offer merit...and so it would make sense that they would be the first NESCACs to offer it (even if on a comparative basis they are less able to afford it). 

I am definitely interested, though, in what I might be missing here.

PaulNewman

BTW, Amherst is far from the only "no loan" LAC.  Davidson actually was the first LAC to do so. 

Here's a list of others....which includes some NESCACs like Bowdoin and Colby.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/2018-09-18/18-schools-that-meet-full-financial-need-with-no-loans

And Amherst isn't the only school to offer a "no loan" policy to international students.  Other LACs in this category include Davidson, Bowdoin, Colby, Pomona, Swat, W&L....

Buck O.

Quote from: amh63 on October 15, 2018, 05:36:11 PM
Don't post much here.  Strange to see the mostly financial type of posts here.  Several comments on the matter.  "Merit" money is a term hard to define in the Nescac....especially wrt to Conn College and Trinity.....both schools with small Endownments in comparison to other Nescac schools.  Costs at conference schools are over 55k/yr plus room and board tacked on.  Amherst has a no loan policy; costs to educate each student is well over 100k plus/student.   It's endownment provide's the difference....thus each student gets merit money imo.....even those families that pay the listed costs.  International students that do not get US backed loans are included in Amherst's no loan policy....a now exclusive policy since Williams has recently taken a different position.  It is to be noted that Amherst has recently completed a new Science building...costing around 250 Million dollars.  It has Just started a 650 million dollar Capital Campaign for its third century.  Believe half of the goal has been reached after a recent 50 million donation...on top of a 100 million donation.  Expecting Amherst's Endownment to reach around 2.5 Billion in FY2018.  College financials are not always "clear".

If you're receiving aid that's not based on your ability to pay, then it's merit aid, right?  I don't see what's unclear.

amh63

paulNewman......it is clear that you are a novice in college finance, imho.  At most of the top LAC, it cost more to educate the student than the listed price...period.  The difference is provide by the school's endowment.  I stated that the term "merit" is often misunderstood.
Your USNW article does NOT indicate International Students.  Foreign Students do not normally qualify for US backed financial backed aid/loans.

PaulNewman

Quote from: amh63 on October 15, 2018, 09:04:44 PM
paulNewman......it is clear that you are a novice in college finance, imho.  At most of the top LAC, it cost more to educate the student than the listed price...period.  The difference is provide by the school's endowment.  I stated that the term "merit" is often misunderstood.
Your USNW article does NOT indicate International Students.  Foreign Students do not normally qualify for US backed financial backed aid/loans.


I guess so.

If Trinity and Amherst both have REAL costs of 105K, with both having a sticker price of let's say 70K, and then Trinity gives me 15K in merit money and Amherst gives me zero, then I'm coming out 15K ahead and because of the school having merit money.

I can post the article with the international cases....just google 'colleges with no loan for international...."

truenorth

Based on what I know...which is admittedly not exhaustive...Conn College and Trinity's offer of "merit based" aid is a first among the NESCACs.  Traditionally the NESCACs have only provided aid based on documented financial need.  In recent years most of the NESCACs (like the Ivys and other well endowed private colleges) have transitioned from loans to outright grants.

I believe that amh63 is fundamentally correct that the cost of one year of education (tuition, room, board, books) is greater than the actual price tag charged.  In my view, these "elite" schools spin this story to some extent in order to appear sympathetic and to justify the exorbitant cost of undergraduate education.  Let's face it, two major industries here in the U.S. have experienced annual cost increases that have far outstripped increases in income and cost of living.  Namely health care and "higher education"...

But in PaulNewman's theoretical example, yes you would come out ahead if Trinity offer $15K in merit based aid and Amherst offered nothing...

PaulNewman

Yes....I suppose I can force myself to appreciate that Amherst spots me 35k on the costs to the college when determining the so-called bargain full sticker price (same as I would appreciate Haverford, Midd, Carleton, Kenyon, etc on that score), but I appreciate even more an additional 15-20k in merit so that I am getting a truly outrageous bargain of writing checks each year for only 50-55k.

1970s NESCAC Player

#6474
Unfortunately, the NESCAC schools' attempts to justify costs and to expand financial aid (of all sorts) is mostly a "lose-lose" proposition.  For example, Colby offers a "free education" to every admitted student whose household income is $60,000 or less, and like other NESCACs, has a no loan policy (i.e., all aid is in the form of grants).  A typical cynical response is that the annual bill (for tuition, room, board, etc.) should be far lower anyway.  Most, if not all, NESCACs (and many other private colleges) have also significantly expanded efforts to recruit a diverse student population, and they have established relationships with non-profits, such as the Posse Foundation, that make attending a NESCAC possible for students who would otherwise not be able to attend.  Skeptics often overlook these laudable initiatives or even view them as reverse discrimination.

Some of my classmates would never send their children to a NESCAC (even if they could afford to do so) when their children "could get just as good an education" at a local public school for far less.  This sort of attitude may eventually wipe out a large component of private colleges that do not have a large, sustainable endowment.

Buck O.

Quote from: 1970s NESCAC Player on October 16, 2018, 11:05:44 AM
Unfortunately, the NESCAC schools' attempts to justify costs and to expand financial aid (of all sorts) is mostly a "lose-lose" proposition.  For example, Colby offers a "free education" to every admitted student whose household income is $60,000 or less, and like other NESCACs, has a no loan policy (i.e., all aid is in the form of grants).  A typical cynical response is that the annual bill (for tuition, room, board, etc.) should be far lower anyway.  Most, if not all, NESCACs (and many other private colleges) have also significantly expanded efforts to recruit a diverse student population and have long-standing relationships with non-profits, such as the Posse Foundation, that make attending a NESCAC possible for students who would otherwise not be able to attend.  Skeptics often overlook these laudable initiatives or even view them as reverse discrimination.

Some of my classmates would never send their children to a NESCAC when their children "could get just as good an education" at a local public school for far less.  This sort of attitude may eventually wipe out a large component of private colleges that do not have a large, sustainable endowment.

Like Mount Ida, or Wheelock.

truenorth

The topic of private college investment in the economic and ethnic diversity of their student populations is more relevant than ever right now with the anti-bias suit vs. Harvard underway this week...

1970s NESCAC Player

Quote from: truenorth on October 16, 2018, 02:01:51 PM
The topic of private college investment in the economic and ethnic diversity of their student populations is more relevant than ever right now with the anti-bias suit vs. Harvard underway this week...

Agreed.  And the lawsuit points to the "lose-lose" nature behind diversification efforts.  Without commenting on the lawsuit, I'm guessing that Harvard saw little risk in expanding diversification efforts, only to have a minority group sue them for discrimination.

PaulNewman

I think we can also rightly wonder if this last decade or so will in hindsight in another decade or two from now be viewed as a market top of sorts....as we've had a decade of increased demand, competition and plunging admit rates among the more/most elite colleges.  These LACs would appear to be thriving more than ever, but there are real threats....the astronomical prices, the rise of online/distance learning, the refrain mentioned of public schools with "just as good an education," questions about the value of residential, college campus-based learning, questions about the value of LACs in general with the rise of specialized programs, engineering, making colleges more like "pragmatic" trade schools and LACs increasingly having to defend their value in instilling core competencies (e.g. critical thinking) that will serve and enhance adult careers, etc, etc.....Sustainability really is the question/core theme across so many human dimensions (environmental/climate change, energy, education, health care, human rights progress, etc, etc)......

And if these colleges do not increase their diversity and accessibility (through conscious choice and/or being legally allowed to do so), then in concert with some of the stuff mentioned above they will be at high risk of being cornered into the caricatures of finishing-school elitism for the super-privileged class that their critics would love to promote.

Bobcat1

Meanwhile Colby is on the board late in the first half hosting UMB... 1-0 Mules.