How Do D-III Schools Recruit?

Started by melgru23, September 14, 2009, 01:06:50 AM

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melgru23

Before you jump all over me for asking dumb questions, let me put the questions in context.  I support(Volunteer) at a California JUCO program that is considered one of the elite programs in the nation.  We place nearly all of our graduating sophomore players in D-1 schools, and a few in D-2 and NAIA programs.  We never have placed a student athlete in a D-III program.  We usually have yearly, 65 or more players that attempt to make our team(15 players +3 red or gray shirts).  This year we have all of our sophomores with D-1 offers.  However we have three freshman with outstanding grades(qualifiers) that are solid players but realistically will get at best offers from D-II schools.  We have 4 recent graduates in the professional ranks. 

Now the questions:
1.  Do D-III schools recruit from California JUCO's?
2.  How does D-III basketball quality measure up to D-II and NAIA programs.
3.  What would be the advantage for one of our players,  other than a scholarship, in signing with a D-III school.

Before you answer my questions...hopefully someone will...here is my website for the California JUCO http://avc-basketball-fan.com .  Let me make it clear, I have no financial interest in any of this kids.  Just want to have the widest range of options for these talented young men.  Thanks in advance for your interest.

 

AO

1. I would assume the d3 cal schools of the SCIAC would.
2. Last year the totals were D3 vs.

D1....1-35
D2....12-57
NAIA 1....9-26
NAIA 2....130-97
The upper third of d3 schools can compete with the top of d2 and naia.  Most glaring example is from 2009 when 23-5 St. Thomas from d3, (lost in first round of d3 playoffs) beat the otherwise undefeated d2 champs Winona State, at Winona.
3. No athletic scholarships in d3 of course, but you never know what financial aid you might qualify for at some private schools until you apply.  The advantage is a quality education where the student-athlete can give the necessary amount of time to being a student.  Playing professionally can still be a good goal as several d3 players are finding good success overseas, but the quality of the education at some d3 schools is invaluable after the competitive playing days are over.

Ralph Turner

I believe that former AVC Strong Forward Glenn Gilliard played one year for McMurry University in Abilene, TX in the 2006-07 season.  He joined at mid-season.  I do not remember how he came to McMurry.  Here are the season stats.

http://athletics.mcm.edu/sports/mbball/06-07/teamcume.htm#TEAM.TEM

McMurry was ASC-West co-champs that year.

http://www.ascsports.org/Pdfs/mbball/2007/11/16/alltimestandingsmbb.pdf

haterinthehouse

Schools I am familiar with are not interested in JUCO's. They want kids in their program that they will have for all four years. They do their homework, find the kids that fit academically, socially, etc...By meeting with and speaking with recruits, parents, teachers, coaches, Guidance office, friends, opposing coaches, etc...I also think that JUCO has a bad rap with these guys. They don't want the baggage. Why go to JUCO, is due to grades, money, think they are better than they are and working for a scholarship, other baggage?

melgru23

Thank you so much for great information.  I cannot disagree with any of your points or facts.  I think that JUCO Basketball coaches must have one of the most difficult jobs in the world.   There is a old saying in JUCO Basketball, "There is a story behind every JUCO basketball player."  Academics, excessive expectations by player/family, funding, social issues are just a few issues.  On the other hand, two years in the right JUCO not only gives you a great BB player for a program but in many cases a very focused individual.  Suggestion for any school interested in recruiting JUCO players, ask if the school has a "full-time academic adviser."  If not, move on to one that does. 

California JUCO's do not have scholarships for their players.  What is the reason D-III schools do not have scholarships for BB players?

http://avc-basketball-fan.com

haterinthehouse

Being NCAA D3 is a philosophy/mission of an institution and it tends to match the mission of D3 set forth by the NCAA.  Just different levels. D1 is typically associated with full scholarships (at least in football/basketball) and sports are big business.  D2 is associated with partial scholarships and typically the coach can spread money around as he wishes as long as it only adds up to (for example) eight full scholarships. And then financial aid at the D3 level is completely out of the hands of the coach. It is based on the FAFSA and a kids EFC. Then academic money and packages are given to the students. So, federal money and school academic scholarships are what prospects can expect - just like any other student wishing to attend the institution. 

The interesting thing about D3 is that the majority of schools are private and can offer great academics in a small classroom setting (ie Williams, Amherst, Chicago, Wash U, U of Rochester, NYU, etc, etc.).  Top D3's have been able to compete against most any level. Take the WIAC (d3 publics) many of the top players in that league transfer from d1's or are marginal d1 players and choose those d3 schools because they will have a chance to play right away or for whatever other reasons. 

Gregory Sager

Quote from: AO on September 14, 2009, 01:30:49 AM
1. I would assume the d3 cal schools of the SCIAC would.

I don't think that the SCIAC programs draw much, if at all, from the juco ranks, particularly in basketball. I would direct melgru23 to the schools of the NWC, whose programs tend to be much more friendly towards juco transfers -- including student/athletes who hail from, or played juco ball in, California.

Quote from: AO on September 14, 2009, 01:30:49 AMThe upper third of d3 schools can compete with the top of d2 and naia.

That's not true, AO. The top of D2 and NAIA-1 is clearly a notch above even the best D3 teams. D3's top ten or fifteen teams would probably be in the middle of the pack, or slightly below it, in D2, and probably at the good-but-not-great level in NAIA-1. The St. Thomas upset over Winona State you cited was a significant anomaly and should not be taken as indicative of competitive levels in a larger sense.

The top of D2 and NAIA-1 have more in common with low- or mid-major D1 than they do with Top 25 D3.

Quote from: melgru23 on September 14, 2009, 10:19:53 AMWhat is the reason D-III schools do not have scholarships for BB players?

NCAA Division III prohibits athletic scholarships for every sport, not just basketball. The prohibition of athletic scholarships is central to the identity of the division, which sees itself as the true repository of the amateur college athletic tradition. Haterinthehouse provides some of the details, but it should be added that the NCAA has oversight mechanisms that ensure that financial aid to student-athletes does not deviate significantly from the aid that goes to other students at that particular institution. One D3 school, Wesley College in Delaware, just had its football program put on two years' probation for violating this rule. (Thanks to Ralph Turner for the link.)
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

haterinthehouse

D1....1-35
D2....12-57
NAIA 1....9-26
NAIA 2....130-97

If these numbers are accurate, then D3 is competes very well with (30 games over .500) versus NAIA 2

Just Bill

I think many people assume that if I kid went to a high level JUCO, their goal was to ultimately get a scholarship.  If that's their goal then, it's easy to conclude that the JUCO kids won't be interested in D-III anyway.
"That seems silly and pointless..." - Hoops Fan

The first and still most accurate description of the D3 Championship BeltTM thread.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: haterinthehouse on September 14, 2009, 06:25:54 PM
D1....1-35
D2....12-57
NAIA 1....9-26
NAIA 2....130-97

If these numbers are accurate, then D3 is competes very well with (30 games over .500) versus NAIA 2

Rhodes Scholar does a very good job of combing through the agate type every day during basketball season, so those numbers are, if not 100% accurate, close to it.

He's also documented the D3-vs.-others tallies for several years now, and his numbers for last year that AO cited above are pretty typical of most seasons.

Quote from: Just Bill on September 15, 2009, 09:45:15 AM
I think many people assume that if I kid went to a high level JUCO, their goal was to ultimately get a scholarship.  If that's their goal then, it's easy to conclude that the JUCO kids won't be interested in D-III anyway.

My observation (which I admit is anecdotally-based) is that there's three popular -- and sometimes overlapping -- reasons why student-athletes choose jucos:

1) To secure a scholarship from a four-year school, either because the student-athlete wasn't offered one as a high school senior or to get a better scholie than the one or ones that he was offered as a high school senior;

2) To rectify high school academic shortcomings (poor grades or low test scores, or both); and/or

3) To save money.

I've seen kids from each of those three backgrounds go on to enroll in, and play at, D3 schools. Oftentimes a student-athlete who chose the juco route for the first reason will become disillusioned with the me-first juco rat race and has a change of heart, opting out to go D3 instead; or he gets to the end of his sophomore year and a scholie from a four-year school is still not forthcoming; or he develops a more mature view of the relative importance of academics as opposed to athletics and subsequently makes an academically-based decision to transfer to a D3 school.

And I've seen kids who didn't have the grades or the test scores, or both, to get into a D3 school do the necessary work to turn their academics around and get into a D3 school as a sophomore or a junior.

The last category seems to be growing increasingly popular, due both to the skyrocketing costs associated with college and to the current economic recession. More and more kids (and their parents, of course) view two years at a juco followed by two years at a four-year school as a smart and fiscally sound way to get a bachelor degree.

"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Ralph Turner

Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 15, 2009, 03:19:08 PM
...
The last category seems to be growing increasingly popular, due both to the skyrocketing costs associated with college and to the current economic recession. More and more kids (and their parents, of course) view two years at a juco followed by two years at a four-year school as a smart and fiscally sound way to get a bachelor degree.

The best example of this type of JUCO/D3 relationship in this part of the country is at Mississippi College.  The state has a strong JUCO system of community colleges that feed the 4-year schools.

MissColl has cultivated that relationship very well. The Choctaws bring quality student-athletes and re-build/re-load every season.

AO

Quote from: Gregory Sager on September 14, 2009, 05:04:44 PM
Quote from: AO on September 14, 2009, 01:30:49 AMThe upper third of d3 schools can compete with the top of d2 and naia.

That's not true, AO. The top of D2 and NAIA-1 is clearly a notch above even the best D3 teams. D3's top ten or fifteen teams would probably be in the middle of the pack, or slightly below it, in D2, and probably at the good-but-not-great level in NAIA-1. The St. Thomas upset over Winona State you cited was a significant anomaly and should not be taken as indicative of competitive levels in a larger sense.

The top of D2 and NAIA-1 have more in common with low- or mid-major D1 than they do with Top 25 D3.

Anomaly?  Maybe if you're from Winona.

as for the Jucos, It can't hurt giving the sciac coaches a call.  I'm sure they would be interested in any dedicated and talented player.

As the Wesley case shows, schools do give good financial aid to athletes.  It's just that some have the endwoment to give it to non-athletes as well and remain within NCAA regulation.




wilburt

Quote from: AO on September 16, 2009, 05:18:33 PM
As the Wesley case shows, schools do give good financial aid to athletes.  It's just that some have the endwoment to give it to non-athletes as well and remain within NCAA regulation.

Aint that the TRUTH, Ruth  ;D
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