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General => General Division III issues => Topic started by: LM3 on August 29, 2017, 09:47:55 am

Title: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: LM3 on August 29, 2017, 09:47:55 am
Hi all,

Help me out -- what might be the compelling reasons for a school to move from D3 to D2? I have not noticed this happening much, and am not up on the reasoning that may drive such a move.

Thanks
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ron Boerger on August 29, 2017, 09:53:19 am
Delusions of grandeur.   
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on August 29, 2017, 09:56:19 am
Hi all,

Help me out -- what might be the compelling reasons for a school to move from D3 to D2? I have not noticed this happening much, and am not up on the reasoning that may drive such a move.

Thanks

I've known a few schools moving from NAIA to NCAA who went to d2 when d3 was a much better fit simply because they didn't think they could maintain an athletic program without maintaining scholarships.  In the majority of cases, that was short-sighted, but money is a bit of a blinder.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: jknezek on August 29, 2017, 10:06:14 am
I think there are 4 primary drivers.

1) Kids, and parents, like athletic scholarships. So even if you give them a pittance, which might be less than financial aid from other areas, it becomes an attractive recruiting tool just on bragging rights.

2) There are areas of this country where DIII simply doesn't have the density to create a working conference let alone OOC schedule for sports. Similarly there are areas where that is true of DII. So if you are in one or the other, travel costs may outweigh the cost of small scholarships. This is also true for NAIA.

3) Being with like institutions. For example, most of the Pennsylvania State system exists in DII. Penn State itself is DI, and there are a few DIII's that don't play football, but if you are a football playing Pennsylvania State school, all of your similar institutions are in DII. The opposite is true for the WIAC, which exists in DIII. So sometimes you are just aligning with similar schools for mission and value purposes.

4) There are too many either DIII or DII schools around, making for a very crowded recruiting landscape. So you opt for the other to distinguish yourself and provide an alternative market.

Personally I think for the most part DII makes very little sense. There is very little revenue pick up, and an increase in costs due to scholarships. The big NCAA stats packages that they put out show that on average the revenue does not offset the average costs for DII schools versus DIII. But I think options 2 and 3 make for legitimate business cases. Generally I think 1 and 4 are losers for most schools.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on August 29, 2017, 01:03:13 pm
Usually I see the reasons as "hey, look at us... we are moving UP!" Then reality hits. I can't think of one DIII that has moved up to DII where it has actually worked out or they have kept their status (whatever their status was). There are a few examples I can think of where the move has been talked about and looked to be happening and hasn't as of yet after years of waiting (Rowan) and others where the move went exactly the opposite how it was "supposed" to work (McMurray). There are several others I have heard are looking into it and others where there are rumors... but for the vast majority of these... that's where these things have ended... at just thoughts and rumors.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: LM3 on August 29, 2017, 01:20:02 pm
Thank you all for the input. The 3 to 2 concept did not strike me as very reasonable, but I liked the examples of a few instances where it might.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 29, 2017, 02:59:23 pm
Usually I see the reasons as "hey, look at us... we are moving UP!" Then reality hits. I can't think of one DIII that has moved up to DII where it has actually worked out or they have kept their status (whatever their status was). There are a few examples I can think of where the move has been talked about and looked to be happening and hasn't as of yet after years of waiting (Rowan) and others where the move went exactly the opposite how it was "supposed" to work (McMurray). There are several others I have heard are looking into it and others where there are rumors... but for the vast majority of these... that's where these things have ended... at just thoughts and rumors.

Maryville (Mo.), Mississippi College and Lincoln have moved from D-III to D-II in the past decade or so and have stuck. In the 1990s, UC San Diego moved. For Maryville, I'm not sure what their reasoning was. For Lincoln, I think that as a HBU, all of their rivals were in Division II and they couldn't find a conference in Division III. Mississippi College came from Division II ("won" and later vacated a football national title) and returned to it in a part of the country where there isn't a ton of Division III.

This is what might well happen with Thomas More. Everyone is all conferenced up in D-III in that part of the country.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Gregory Sager on August 29, 2017, 03:24:42 pm
The general consensus here among Chicagoland D3 observers is that Benedictine's dalliance with D2 membership is reflective of jknezek's driver #4. Chicagoland is replete with D3 schools, but there's only one D2 institution (Lewis), and, with the demise of St. Joseph's (IN), there's now only one other D2 school within three hours of Chicago (UW-Parkside, up in Kenosha, WI).
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on August 29, 2017, 07:45:56 pm
The general consensus here among Chicagoland D3 observers is that Benedictine's dalliance with D2 membership is reflective of jknezek's driver #4. Chicagoland is replete with D3 schools, but there's only one D2 institution (Lewis), and, with the demise of St. Joseph's (IN), there's now only one other D2 school within three hours of Chicago (UW-Parkside, up in Kenosha, WI).

I would add one more factor that I feel may also be in play at Benedictine and I know has been in play at other places: ego. The right person, whether it is in the athletic administration, in the college administration, or even outside the school (there is one in western Maryland who thinks they can pull the right strings) usually ends up wanting to be the "guy who got it done" on their resume or ego list. I can't explain why, but I can think of a few times when this has happened.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: smedindy on August 30, 2017, 12:43:30 am
When many of the schools up in the NW chose to go to the NCAA, there was a pretty much down the middle split between those that went D2 (who joined the PacWest and then the Great Northwest), and the NWC who moved to D3 a couple of years before. I don't think any school current in either conference is unhappy with their chosen division. The one athletics program in the GNAC that's struggling is St. Martin's, who really has more in common with the NWC schools and would fit in nicely in their footprint (though they don't play football).

A football situation could be developing. Currently the D2 GNAC has only three full-time members that play football (out of 11), and have two affiliate members. They double round robin this year leaving three non-conference games, and they're either pay games or involve lots of travel. CWU has two games against powers Texas A&M - Kingsville and Northern Alabama. There is an NAIA conference up here that plays football (and another that does not offer it).

Simon Fraser is what worries me. They've lost their last 23 games and are 14-57 as an NCAA school in football. Many are nervous what happens if they move back to Canadian Football or quit the sport. Who knows what would happen up here then in regards to football, which then has repercussions to other sports and the conferences.

So in the next few years there could be movement up here outside of the NWC....
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on August 30, 2017, 07:47:15 am
When many of the schools up in the NW chose to go to the NCAA, there was a pretty much down the middle split between those that went D2 (who joined the PacWest and then the Great Northwest), and the NWC who moved to D3 a couple of years before. I don't think any school current in either conference is unhappy with their chosen division. The one athletics program in the GNAC that's struggling is St. Martin's, who really has more in common with the NWC schools and would fit in nicely in their footprint (though they don't play football).

A football situation could be developing. Currently the D2 GNAC has only three full-time members that play football (out of 11), and have two affiliate members. They double round robin this year leaving three non-conference games, and they're either pay games or involve lots of travel. CWU has two games against powers Texas A&M - Kingsville and Northern Alabama. There is an NAIA conference up here that plays football (and another that does not offer it).

Simon Fraser is what worries me. They've lost their last 23 games and are 14-57 as an NCAA school in football. Many are nervous what happens if they move back to Canadian Football or quit the sport. Who knows what would happen up here then in regards to football, which then has repercussions to other sports and the conferences.

So in the next few years there could be movement up here outside of the NWC....

Northwest Nazarene went D2 from NAIA, joining the GNAC.  They had an offer to get into the NWC, but wanted to keep scholarships, even though d3 and the NWC are a far better fit.  Now, two Presidents later, they'd love to take that opportunity, but word is the NWC is no longer willing to take them without a travel partner.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ron Boerger on August 30, 2017, 10:36:23 am
The general consensus here among Chicagoland D3 observers is that Benedictine's dalliance with D2 membership is reflective of jknezek's driver #4. Chicagoland is replete with D3 schools, but there's only one D2 institution (Lewis), and, with the demise of St. Joseph's (IN), there's now only one other D2 school within three hours of Chicago (UW-Parkside, up in Kenosha, WI).

I would add one more factor that I feel may also be in play at Benedictine and I know has been in play at other places: ego. The right person, whether it is in the athletic administration, in the college administration, or even outside the school (there is one in western Maryland who thinks they can pull the right strings) usually ends up wanting to be the "guy who got it done" on their resume or ego list. I can't explain why, but I can think of a few times when this has happened.

Isn't that covered under my "delusions of grandeur" comment?   ;D

Similar situation at the University of the Incarnate Word in San Antonio.   Three decades ago it was a NAIA-2 school with less than 2K kids; new president came in, made a boatload of changes, went NCAA II and now NCAA I FCS (this is the first year of official NCAA I status) despite not having any facilities suitable for that level (football stadium seats 6K, etc).   The president, after three decades and growing the school to over 10K, 6K at the main campus, was cashiered last year after making offensive comments; it will be interesting to see what happens to the athletic programs there with new leadership. 
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on August 30, 2017, 12:24:04 pm
Ron - it could be in the same category, though I usually think of "delusions of grandeur" as "the grass is greener" or "someone said this would be a good idea" or "wouldn't it be cool" ... whereas I put the ego element as "look what I did" or "I know this is better" or "imagine what my legacy will look like if" type of thinking. :)
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: smedindy on August 30, 2017, 12:58:08 pm
When many of the schools up in the NW chose to go to the NCAA, there was a pretty much down the middle split between those that went D2 (who joined the PacWest and then the Great Northwest), and the NWC who moved to D3 a couple of years before. I don't think any school current in either conference is unhappy with their chosen division. The one athletics program in the GNAC that's struggling is St. Martin's, who really has more in common with the NWC schools and would fit in nicely in their footprint (though they don't play football).

A football situation could be developing. Currently the D2 GNAC has only three full-time members that play football (out of 11), and have two affiliate members. They double round robin this year leaving three non-conference games, and they're either pay games or involve lots of travel. CWU has two games against powers Texas A&M - Kingsville and Northern Alabama. There is an NAIA conference up here that plays football (and another that does not offer it).

Simon Fraser is what worries me. They've lost their last 23 games and are 14-57 as an NCAA school in football. Many are nervous what happens if they move back to Canadian Football or quit the sport. Who knows what would happen up here then in regards to football, which then has repercussions to other sports and the conferences.

So in the next few years there could be movement up here outside of the NWC....

Northwest Nazarene went D2 from NAIA, joining the GNAC.  They had an offer to get into the NWC, but wanted to keep scholarships, even though d3 and the NWC are a far better fit.  Now, two Presidents later, they'd love to take that opportunity, but word is the NWC is no longer willing to take them without a travel partner.

That's interesting, since they're pretty competitive in many sports (unlike St. Martin's). It is out there in Nampa, though, and the closest school is four hours away in the NWC.

The Alaska schools had considered combining for athletics, but the NCAA wouldn't grant that waiver, nor grant a waiver for them to go under the required sport total.

The D2/D3/NAIA calculus out here is a lot different than the Midwest, that's for sure. Frankly, the NWC is sitting pretty, especially in football. Even with L&C's perennial struggles on the field.

As to the big question, why move from D3 to D2? Right now, I think it would only make sense if your peers or aspirant peers are in that division, without a urgent circumstance that would make you switch.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ron Boerger on August 30, 2017, 02:17:58 pm
Speaking of D2 ... two days after developing a new "brand identity," the D2 Heartland Conference is losing 8 of its 9 teams to the Lone Star Conference in 2019.  http://lonestarconference.org/news/2017/8/30/general-membership083017.aspx
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 30, 2017, 02:25:45 pm
 :o
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: LM3 on August 30, 2017, 02:51:28 pm
The general consensus here among Chicagoland D3 observers is that Benedictine's dalliance with D2 membership is reflective of jknezek's driver #4. Chicagoland is replete with D3 schools, but there's only one D2 institution (Lewis), and, with the demise of St. Joseph's (IN), there's now only one other D2 school within three hours of Chicago (UW-Parkside, up in Kenosha, WI).

Thanks for that input on Benedictine. So am I understanding you correctly that their potential move might be fueled by there being too many competitive D-3's around them...I could see them looking at less direct competitio, but when you factor in how few D2's there are within 3 hours, I wonder if that is not trading one deficit for another. Is Benedictine supposedly still mulling this idea?
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on August 30, 2017, 03:47:22 pm
The general consensus here among Chicagoland D3 observers is that Benedictine's dalliance with D2 membership is reflective of jknezek's driver #4. Chicagoland is replete with D3 schools, but there's only one D2 institution (Lewis), and, with the demise of St. Joseph's (IN), there's now only one other D2 school within three hours of Chicago (UW-Parkside, up in Kenosha, WI).

Thanks for that input on Benedictine. So am I understanding you correctly that their potential move might be fueled by there being too many competitive D-3's around them...I could see them looking at less direct competitio, but when you factor in how few D2's there are within 3 hours, I wonder if that is not trading one deficit for another. Is Benedictine supposedly still mulling this idea?

Benedictine is looking at it... and while Greg has a good sense of what is going on or the reasons behind it, I have also been told that there may be an ego move here. The president wants to make his mark... alums want to only donate to scholarships... that kind of BS.

I personally have felt this isn't going to happen, but better to say... I've heard this talk before and schools have remained in DIII.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: smedindy on August 30, 2017, 04:51:04 pm
Oh, please. You can donate to scholarships at a D-3 school - just not athletic scholarships. Have them donate the the unrestricted scholarship endowment.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: smedindy on August 30, 2017, 04:54:21 pm
Speaking of D2 ... two days after developing a new "brand identity," the D2 Heartland Conference is losing 8 of its 9 teams to the Lone Star Conference in 2019.  http://lonestarconference.org/news/2017/8/30/general-membership083017.aspx

Well, they definitely rebranded!

And....HELLO NEWMAN! (The sole survivor!)

http://newmanjets.com/news/2017/8/29/baseball-newman-to-explore-new-conference-affiliation.aspx
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ron Boerger on August 31, 2017, 08:39:31 am
Speaking of D2 ... two days after developing a new "brand identity," the D2 Heartland Conference is losing 8 of its 9 teams to the Lone Star Conference in 2019.  http://lonestarconference.org/news/2017/8/30/general-membership083017.aspx

Well, they definitely rebranded!

And....HELLO NEWMAN! (The sole survivor!)

http://newmanjets.com/news/2017/8/29/baseball-newman-to-explore-new-conference-affiliation.aspx

I thought the SAA did the SCAC a dirty ... at least they left enough for the SCAC to continue in some form (tho RIP SCAC football  :().

Interesting that Newman was academically one of the high-achieving schools in the Heartland.   Wish them all the best with the bad hand they were just dealt.    MIAA?  GLVC?
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on August 31, 2017, 01:27:08 pm
Speaking of D2 ... two days after developing a new "brand identity," the D2 Heartland Conference is losing 8 of its 9 teams to the Lone Star Conference in 2019.  http://lonestarconference.org/news/2017/8/30/general-membership083017.aspx

Well, they definitely rebranded!

And....HELLO NEWMAN! (The sole survivor!)

http://newmanjets.com/news/2017/8/29/baseball-newman-to-explore-new-conference-affiliation.aspx

I thought the SAA did the SCAC a dirty ... at least they left enough for the SCAC to continue in some form (tho RIP SCAC football  :().

Interesting that Newman was academically one of the high-achieving schools in the Heartland.   Wish them all the best with the bad hand they were just dealt.    MIAA?  GLVC?

I am not sure how the SAA did the SCAC a dirty. That move was not a secret. It had been discussed for YEARS. Travel was a major challenge and that was a heck of a travel schedule. No surprise at all the eastern half left to form their own conference. Did the SCAC get left with very few options around them? Sure. But again... we all knew that was going to happen. The entire SCAC knew it was going to happen.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: justafan12 on December 05, 2017, 04:40:49 pm
I don't believe it has been a well kept secret but UT Tyler is pondering the move from D3 to D2.  I have heard that if done they will announce it in early 2018 and begin playing combined D3 and D2 schedules next year (18-19).  Heard they will join the Heartland conference.  UT Tyler does not (currently) play football and are most noted for their golf and softball teams.

Also heard that the big push for this is coming from the new president.  He is looking for feathers to put in his hat and taking a D3 to D2 status is just a check on the list of accomplishments he can add. 
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Warren Thompson on December 05, 2017, 05:25:58 pm
Also heard that the big push for this is coming from the new [UTT] president.  He is looking for feathers to put in his hat and taking a D3 to D2 status is just a check on the list of accomplishments he can add. 

Herewith a mere opinion: going from D3 to D2 might not be the best way to garner feathers for anyone's cap, and it could be a "negative" accomplishment [see the case of McMurry].

Full disclosure: I have doubts about the sanity of an academic CEO who believes that athletic success in itself will make her/his venue a better institution of learning.  :'(
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 05, 2017, 07:04:55 pm
I don't believe it has been a well kept secret but UT Tyler is pondering the move from D3 to D2.  I have heard that if done they will announce it in early 2018 and begin playing combined D3 and D2 schedules next year (18-19).  Heard they will join the Heartland conference.  UT Tyler does not (currently) play football and are most noted for their golf and softball teams.

Also heard that the big push for this is coming from the new president.  He is looking for feathers to put in his hat and taking a D3 to D2 status is just a check on the list of accomplishments he can add.
IN 2019, eight members (all but Newman (KS) of the Heartland Conference are moving to the Lone Star Conference, taking the Lone Star Conference from 11 members to 19 members.

UTTyler does not have a stadium on campus and would have to play at the local high school stadium, which is a good facility.

UTT leaving the ASC would level the playing field among the remaining institutions (all being small liberal arts schools except Sul Ross and UT Dallas.  Sul Ross is small and geographically isolated. UT-Dallas is metropolitan suburban, 17,000 total enrollment and  academically on par with some FBS's in the state. In-state tuition is $12,100.)
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 05, 2017, 09:28:57 pm
There are always schools considering the move... just not sure if they will or won't.

Most have to get their applications in by early January for a decision to then be made. That is why this time of the year is popular for these kinds of reports, speculation, rumors, etc.

Personally, not many DIIIs have moved on to DII and it done anything more than be a blimp on the radar.

UT-Tyler is not the only one considering this right now. Benedictine (Ill.) has a decision coming from their board of trustees this week.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ron Boerger on December 06, 2017, 10:23:25 am
I don't believe it has been a well kept secret but UT Tyler is pondering the move from D3 to D2.  I have heard that if done they will announce it in early 2018 and begin playing combined D3 and D2 schedules next year (18-19).  Heard they will join the Heartland conference.  UT Tyler does not (currently) play football and are most noted for their golf and softball teams.

Also heard that the big push for this is coming from the new president.  He is looking for feathers to put in his hat and taking a D3 to D2 status is just a check on the list of accomplishments he can add.

Here's the most recent story (from June July) mentioning the changes being considered:

http://www.tylerpaper.com/TP-News+Local/294272/ut-tyler-working-on-new-strategic-plan-changes-to-branding

Quote
One of the biggest items on the college’s list would be a possible move into NCAA Division II athletics competition.

The college is leaning toward using part of the 120 acres purchased in 2016 as home for a potential athletics campus. The move also would free more space for facilities on the main campus facing University Boulevard.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: NEPAFAN on December 06, 2017, 11:01:45 am
There are always schools considering the move... just not sure if they will or won't.

Most have to get their applications in by early January for a decision to then be made. That is why this time of the year is popular for these kinds of reports, speculation, rumors, etc.

Personally, not many DIIIs have moved on to DII and it done anything more than be a blimp on the radar.

UT-Tyler is not the only one considering this right now. Benedictine (Ill.) has a decision coming from their board of trustees this week.

Blimp on the radar lol, that is a new one.

Chestnut Hill has successfully moved from D3 to D2 in the Philly region FWIW.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 06, 2017, 11:43:33 am
There are always schools considering the move... just not sure if they will or won't.

Most have to get their applications in by early January for a decision to then be made. That is why this time of the year is popular for these kinds of reports, speculation, rumors, etc.

Personally, not many DIIIs have moved on to DII and it done anything more than be a blimp on the radar.

UT-Tyler is not the only one considering this right now. Benedictine (Ill.) has a decision coming from their board of trustees this week.

Blimp on the radar lol, that is a new one.

Chestnut Hill has successfully moved from D3 to D2 in the Philly region FWIW.

Great. You named one. I can name another Philly area school that has basically disappeared: Lincoln.

I can also name schools like MacMurry who have returned with their tail between their legs. Or Rowan who keeps talking that they are going on to DII (with hopes to move on to DI) and can't the process started.

A lot of schools have left DIII for DII. Not many make headlines. Same can be said in reverse, especially in the modern era.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: NEPAFAN on December 06, 2017, 12:05:44 pm
There are always schools considering the move... just not sure if they will or won't.

Most have to get their applications in by early January for a decision to then be made. That is why this time of the year is popular for these kinds of reports, speculation, rumors, etc.

Personally, not many DIIIs have moved on to DII and it done anything more than be a blimp on the radar.

UT-Tyler is not the only one considering this right now. Benedictine (Ill.) has a decision coming from their board of trustees this week.

Blimp on the radar lol, that is a new one.

Chestnut Hill has successfully moved from D3 to D2 in the Philly region FWIW.

Great. You named one. I can name another Philly area school that has basically disappeared: Lincoln.

I can also name schools like MacMurry who have returned with their tail between their legs. Or Rowan who keeps talking that they are going on to DII (with hopes to move on to DI) and can't the process started.

A lot of schools have left DIII for DII. Not many make headlines. Same can be said in reverse, especially in the modern era.

I added a name to the discussion that wasn't previously mentioned.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 06, 2017, 12:12:31 pm
There are always schools considering the move... just not sure if they will or won't.

Most have to get their applications in by early January for a decision to then be made. That is why this time of the year is popular for these kinds of reports, speculation, rumors, etc.

Personally, not many DIIIs have moved on to DII and it done anything more than be a blimp on the radar.

UT-Tyler is not the only one considering this right now. Benedictine (Ill.) has a decision coming from their board of trustees this week.

Blimp on the radar lol, that is a new one.

Chestnut Hill has successfully moved from D3 to D2 in the Philly region FWIW.

Great. You named one. I can name another Philly area school that has basically disappeared: Lincoln.

I can also name schools like MacMurry who have returned with their tail between their legs. Or Rowan who keeps talking that they are going on to DII (with hopes to move on to DI) and can't the process started.

A lot of schools have left DIII for DII. Not many make headlines. Same can be said in reverse, especially in the modern era.
Several years ago, Maryville University Saints in Saint Louis, MO moved from the SLAIC to D-2 in about 2009.  Their Wikipeida page talks about the success that they have had in Wrestling when they picked the Wrestling team from U Nebraska-Omaha (as UNO moved from D-2 to D-1).

Centenary LA and Birmingham Southern from D-1 to D-3 in the last decade are the ones that come to mind in this part of  the country.  (I assume that they are doing well with the move.)
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 06, 2017, 12:52:59 pm
Oops... spelling mistake on my part. Didn't mean MacMurray... meant McMurry. SMH I do that sometimes.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 06, 2017, 01:41:17 pm
Oops... spelling mistake on my part. Didn't mean MacMurray... meant McMurry. SMH I do that sometimes.
+1!  Thanks.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: justafan12 on December 06, 2017, 02:49:52 pm

Herewith a mere opinion: going from D3 to D2 might not be the best way to garner feathers for anyone's cap, and it could be a "negative" accomplishment [see the case of McMurry].

Full disclosure: I have doubts about the sanity of an academic CEO who believes that athletic success in itself will make her/his venue a better institution of learning.  :'(
From what I heard, the new President is only planning on staying at UTT for 5 years.  Full effect of moving to D2 won't be know for at least that amount of time.  So he touts he "moved" them up a step to D2 with no one really knowing the true effect.  In reading some of his quotes, he felt like the move to D2 would help in getting corporate sponsorship (not my words; his).

Knowing the program there, I am not a fan of the move.  Have they outgrown the ASC; maybe so.  I understand there has been talk in the past of wanting to remove the state schools from the ASC but since Sul Ross is a charter member they did not want to do that.  Now schools are looking to form their own conference and just not invite the state schools to join.  So maybe it is a good move for UTT just to get ahead of the game and make the move now.  Only time will tell.

(modified by GS for formatting)
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 06, 2017, 03:08:19 pm

Herewith a mere opinion: going from D3 to D2 might not be the best way to garner feathers for anyone's cap, and it could be a "negative" accomplishment [see the case of McMurry].

Full disclosure: I have doubts about the sanity of an academic CEO who believes that athletic success in itself will make her/his venue a better institution of learning.  :'(
From what I heard, the new President is only planning on staying at UTT for 5 years.  Full effect of moving to D2 won't be know for at least that amount of time.  So he touts he "moved" them up a step to D2 with no one really knowing the true effect.  In reading some of his quotes, he felt like the move to D2 would help in getting corporate sponsorship (not my words; his).

Knowing the program there, I am not a fan of the move.  Have they outgrown the ASC; maybe so.  I understand there has been talk in the past of wanting to remove the state schools from the ASC but since Sul Ross is a charter member they did not want to do that.  Now schools are looking to form their own conference and just not invite the state schools to join.  So maybe it is a good move for UTT just to get ahead of the game and make the move now.  Only time will tell.

(modified by GS for formatting)

This is why I reference that sometimes these moves are about ego, feather in the hat, reputation, and resume... not necessarily what is best for the school.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: justafan12 on December 06, 2017, 06:18:21 pm

Herewith a mere opinion: going from D3 to D2 might not be the best way to garner feathers for anyone's cap, and it could be a "negative" accomplishment [see the case of McMurry].

Full disclosure: I have doubts about the sanity of an academic CEO who believes that athletic success in itself will make her/his venue a better institution of learning.  :'(
From what I heard, the new President is only planning on staying at UTT for 5 years.  Full effect of moving to D2 won't be know for at least that amount of time.  So he touts he "moved" them up a step to D2 with no one really knowing the true effect.  In reading some of his quotes, he felt like the move to D2 would help in getting corporate sponsorship (not my words; his).

Knowing the program there, I am not a fan of the move.  Have they outgrown the ASC; maybe so.  I understand there has been talk in the past of wanting to remove the state schools from the ASC but since Sul Ross is a charter member they did not want to do that.  Now schools are looking to form their own conference and just not invite the state schools to join.  So maybe it is a good move for UTT just to get ahead of the game and make the move now.  Only time will tell.

(modified by GS for formatting)

This is why I reference that sometimes these moves are about ego, feather in the hat, reputation, and resume... not necessarily what is best for the school.

Exactly!
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 07, 2017, 06:26:06 am

Maybe close to a decade ago now, Northwest Nazarene left NAIA for the NCAA - they chose D2, even though they had an offer from the NWC (a conference full of very similar schools) to enter without having to add football.  Now, they're realizing the finances don't make sense, but the NWC offer doesn't exist anymore and they have no other choices.

Honestly, geography is about the only reason I could see choosing d2 over d3 - if you don't have schools nearby to play or a conference to join, it makes sense.  Otherwise, why?
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: hopefan on December 08, 2017, 03:55:27 pm

Maybe close to a decade ago now, Northwest Nazarene left NAIA for the NCAA - they chose D2, even though they had an offer from the NWC (a conference full of very similar schools) to enter without having to add football.  Now, they're realizing the finances don't make sense, but the NWC offer doesn't exist anymore and they have no other choices.

Honestly, geography is about the only reason I could see choosing d2 over d3 - if you don't have schools nearby to play or a conference to join, it makes sense.  Otherwise, why?

Eckerd is an example of this... it would be a perfect D3 school, private institution, fine academics, 1800 students, a D3 sized gymnasium and facilities... BUT there are no D3 schools in Florida, so they have to be noncompetitive in most sports, putting most of their $ into men's and women's basketball.

Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: smedindy on December 09, 2017, 07:47:13 pm

Maybe close to a decade ago now, Northwest Nazarene left NAIA for the NCAA - they chose D2, even though they had an offer from the NWC (a conference full of very similar schools) to enter without having to add football.  Now, they're realizing the finances don't make sense, but the NWC offer doesn't exist anymore and they have no other choices.

Honestly, geography is about the only reason I could see choosing d2 over d3 - if you don't have schools nearby to play or a conference to join, it makes sense.  Otherwise, why?

Counterpoint - many of NNU's programs are competitive.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on December 15, 2017, 01:44:44 pm

Maybe close to a decade ago now, Northwest Nazarene left NAIA for the NCAA - they chose D2, even though they had an offer from the NWC (a conference full of very similar schools) to enter without having to add football.  Now, they're realizing the finances don't make sense, but the NWC offer doesn't exist anymore and they have no other choices.

Honestly, geography is about the only reason I could see choosing d2 over d3 - if you don't have schools nearby to play or a conference to join, it makes sense.  Otherwise, why?

Counterpoint - many of NNU's programs are competitive.

True, although it took a decade to get there - and a lot of money. 
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 18, 2017, 06:31:39 pm

Maybe close to a decade ago now, Northwest Nazarene left NAIA for the NCAA - they chose D2, even though they had an offer from the NWC (a conference full of very similar schools) to enter without having to add football.  Now, they're realizing the finances don't make sense, but the NWC offer doesn't exist anymore and they have no other choices.

Honestly, geography is about the only reason I could see choosing d2 over d3 - if you don't have schools nearby to play or a conference to join, it makes sense.  Otherwise, why?

Counterpoint - many of NNU's programs are competitive.

True, although it took a decade to get there - and a lot of money.
...which was implicit in the move from NAIA (or D3) to D2.

Part of the sales pitch that is given by consultants in the move from D3 to D2 is that the school will get a "better" quality of student.

You gotta spend money to make money!
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Bishopleftiesdad on December 19, 2017, 03:13:03 pm

Maybe close to a decade ago now, Northwest Nazarene left NAIA for the NCAA - they chose D2, even though they had an offer from the NWC (a conference full of very similar schools) to enter without having to add football.  Now, they're realizing the finances don't make sense, but the NWC offer doesn't exist anymore and they have no other choices.

Honestly, geography is about the only reason I could see choosing d2 over d3 - if you don't have schools nearby to play or a conference to join, it makes sense.  Otherwise, why?

Counterpoint - many of NNU's programs are competitive.

True, although it took a decade to get there - and a lot of money.
...which was implicit in the move from NAIA (or D3) to D2.

Part of the sales pitch that is given by consultants in the move from D3 to D2 is that the school will get a "better" quality of student.

You gotta spend money to make money!
I would ask the consultants to define better. I would find it hard to believe that better involves students academic chops.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 19, 2017, 04:16:18 pm

Maybe close to a decade ago now, Northwest Nazarene left NAIA for the NCAA - they chose D2, even though they had an offer from the NWC (a conference full of very similar schools) to enter without having to add football.  Now, they're realizing the finances don't make sense, but the NWC offer doesn't exist anymore and they have no other choices.

Honestly, geography is about the only reason I could see choosing d2 over d3 - if you don't have schools nearby to play or a conference to join, it makes sense.  Otherwise, why?

Counterpoint - many of NNU's programs are competitive.

True, although it took a decade to get there - and a lot of money.
...which was implicit in the move from NAIA (or D3) to D2.

Part of the sales pitch that is given by consultants in the move from D3 to D2 is that the school will get a "better" quality of student.

You gotta spend money to make money!
I would ask the consultants to define better. I would find it hard to believe that better involves students academic chops.
For McMurry, the attraction of D2 was to get into the "better" suburban schools in the state. When McMurry announced it was going to D2, the admissions people (and coaches) were able to get into high schools that they had not previously been able to.

McMurry is still a "first generation" school.  The diversity mix is "laudable" by "popular standards".  However, those "first generation" students present challenges that some colleges may not be able to handle, or may not want to associate themselves with. (That is politically incorrect, and it has manifested itself as a "mission and vision" issue in D3 conference formation. But that stratum of American society comprises many of my friends and where I came from.  I am well aware of the other side of "White Privilege".) I can see how McMurry presents a degree of "desirable difficulty" for these first generation students as described by Bjork and Bjork and elaborated upon in Malcolm Gladwell's David and Goliath (an enjoyable holiday read.)

Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Gray Fox on December 19, 2017, 05:43:02 pm
Ralph,
   I think geography makes a big difference here.  In the east and Big Ten states there are many small colleges that are well thought of academically. and are well known by the locals.  In the SCIAC areas, the academic advisors may know of the local schools, but the general public does not.

GF
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 19, 2017, 07:55:55 pm
Grey Fox, speaking to the McMurry situation, when McMurry administration was told by the consultant, a former NCAA executive, that the university could get a "better" student-athlete by moving to D2, and Hal Mumme was talking about going to D-2 as the only private football playing school in Texas, McMurry admission personnel were now getting to talk to student-athletes in Highland Park Dallas, Round Rock schools, Lake Travis, etc.  That was a big difference.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Gray Fox on December 19, 2017, 08:05:32 pm
Ralph,
That is a good thing. 
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 20, 2017, 12:20:27 am
Ralph,
That is a good thing. 



There are always schools considering the move... just not sure if they will or won't.

Most have to get their applications in by early January for a decision to then be made. That is why this time of the year is popular for these kinds of reports, speculation, rumors, etc.

Personally, not many DIIIs have moved on to DII and it done anything more than be a blimp on the radar.

UT-Tyler is not the only one considering this right now. Benedictine (Ill.) has a decision coming from their board of trustees this week.

Blimp on the radar lol, that is a new one.

Chestnut Hill has successfully moved from D3 to D2 in the Philly region FWIW.

Great. You named one. I can name another Philly area school that has basically disappeared: Lincoln.

I can also name schools like McMurry who have returned with their tail between their legs. Or Rowan who keeps talking that they are going on to DII (with hopes to move on to DI) and can't the process started.

A lot of schools have left DIII for DII. Not many make headlines. Same can be said in reverse, especially in the modern era.
Thinking of the schools that have gone to D2?  Lincoln PA, Maryville MO, Lake Erie, Chestnut Hill, any other?
Making the move to D2 is hard, very hard, and involves changing many more things than scholarship athletics. If you look at data on resource allocation for athletics for D3 versus D2 alone, we are talking millions of dollars! Plus, there are so many other things involved in D2  that schools must accomplish for the move to be successful.

When you fail, it is tough, too.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Gregory Sager on December 20, 2017, 12:38:38 am
Thinking of the schools that have gone to D2?  Lincoln PA, Maryville MO, Lake Erie, Chestnut Hill, any other?

Chowan, Mansfield State, Lock Haven, UC-San Diego, Lane, LeMoyne-Owen, Sonoma State, Stanislaus State, San Bernardino State, Ashland, Slippery Rock ... if I thought about it some more, I could come up with others.

Chowan's the only one I've named that's switched within the last decade and a half.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Warren Thompson on December 20, 2017, 09:51:23 am
Thinking of the schools that have gone to D2?  Lincoln PA, Maryville MO, Lake Erie, Chestnut Hill, any other?

Chowan, Mansfield State, Lock Haven, UC-San Diego, Lane, LeMoyne-Owen, Sonoma State, Stanislaus State, San Bernardino State, Ashland, Slippery Rock ... if I thought about it some more, I could come up with others.

Chowan's the only one I've named that's switched within the last decade and a half.

Westminster (PA) was a power in NAIA D2, then switched to NCAA D2, and finally "came home" to NCAA D3 -- all this within the last decade and a half, I think.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 20, 2017, 10:40:08 am
Thinking of the schools that have gone to D2?  Lincoln PA, Maryville MO, Lake Erie, Chestnut Hill, any other?

Chowan, Mansfield State, Lock Haven, UC-San Diego, Lane, LeMoyne-Owen, Sonoma State, Stanislaus State, San Bernardino State, Ashland, Slippery Rock ... if I thought about it some more, I could come up with others.

Chowan's the only one I've named that's switched within the last decade and a half.

Lincoln and McMurray switched in the last decade in a half as well... though, I realize not on your list. :)

Grey Fox, speaking to the McMurry situation, when McMurry administration was told by the consultant, a former NCAA executive, that the university could get a "better" student-athlete by moving to D2, and Hal Mumme was talking about going to D-2 as the only private football playing school in Texas, McMurry admission personnel were now getting to talk to student-athletes in Highland Park Dallas, Round Rock schools, Lake Travis, etc.  That was a big difference.

Well... when talking to a number of people who knew the McMurray case well... Hal Mumme also sold a bill of goods. Promises of an easy transition including a year or two taken off the transition years... and other things. I have had some enlightening conversations about Mumme's role in all of this as well.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Gregory Sager on December 20, 2017, 11:24:45 am
Thinking of the schools that have gone to D2?  Lincoln PA, Maryville MO, Lake Erie, Chestnut Hill, any other?

Chowan, Mansfield State, Lock Haven, UC-San Diego, Lane, LeMoyne-Owen, Sonoma State, Stanislaus State, San Bernardino State, Ashland, Slippery Rock ... if I thought about it some more, I could come up with others.

Chowan's the only one I've named that's switched within the last decade and a half.

Lincoln and McMurray switched in the last decade in a half as well... though, I realize not on your list. :)

Ralph had already named Lincoln, and since he's "Mr. McMurry" on d3boards.com I didn't think it would be necessary for me to name his alma mater. ;)
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 20, 2017, 11:38:22 am
Well I had named Lincoln as well.. but I wasn't sure where you might have been headed... so just crossing Ts. :)
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: smedindy on December 20, 2017, 02:39:27 pm
Thinking of the schools that have gone to D2?  Lincoln PA, Maryville MO, Lake Erie, Chestnut Hill, any other?

Chowan, Mansfield State, Lock Haven, UC-San Diego, Lane, LeMoyne-Owen, Sonoma State, Stanislaus State, San Bernardino State, Ashland, Slippery Rock ... if I thought about it some more, I could come up with others.

Chowan's the only one I've named that's switched within the last decade and a half.

UC - San Diego tried to get to D-1 but didn't get an invite (they were hoping the WAC or the Big West). They also thought about football as well. They have a grant that will expire soon if they don't move to D-1.

Cal Baptist is moving to D-1 and joining the WAC next year.

I don't see a lot of other California schools moving now - the state schools at least.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Caz Bombers on December 20, 2017, 04:12:48 pm
Thinking of the schools that have gone to D2?  Lincoln PA, Maryville MO, Lake Erie, Chestnut Hill, any other?

Chowan, Mansfield State, Lock Haven, UC-San Diego, Lane, LeMoyne-Owen, Sonoma State, Stanislaus State, San Bernardino State, Ashland, Slippery Rock ... if I thought about it some more, I could come up with others.

Chowan's the only one I've named that's switched within the last decade and a half.

UC - San Diego tried to get to D-1 but didn't get an invite (they were hoping the WAC or the Big West). They also thought about football as well. They have a grant that will expire soon if they don't move to D-1.

Cal Baptist is moving to D-1 and joining the WAC next year.

I don't see a lot of other California schools moving now - the state schools at least.

UCSD got its invitation to the Big West last month (along with CSU Bakersfield from the WAC) and is going up in 2020.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: smedindy on December 21, 2017, 01:08:15 am
Thanks for the update.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 10, 2018, 04:04:36 pm
FYI - UT-Tyler has announced, apparently, that they are pursuing DII.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ron Boerger on January 10, 2018, 04:08:52 pm
FYI - UT-Tyler has announced, apparently, that they are pursuing DII.

http://www.kltv.com/story/37235397/ut-tyler-applies-for-division-ii-status-could-bring-college-football-to-tyler
http://www.easttexasmatters.com/news/local-news/ut-tyler-preparing-ncaa-division-ii-application/909142128
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: justafan12 on January 10, 2018, 06:20:14 pm
News was very confusing during the day regarding this.  Best I can tell is UTT has completed the application but has not submitted it yet.  Articles were also mentioning football could happen if they go D2.

Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 10, 2018, 10:41:18 pm
Here is how this goes... Tyler is moving forward with applying to DII. The deadline is not until Feb. 1, so they may not have submitted it yet... not surprising.

The process than goes:
- Public list of schools interest is posted by the NCAA (DII) in February after the applications are accepted.
- The NCAA (DII) will spend the next few months going through the applications, conducting site visits, and more.
- Sometime this summer (probably in June; prior to July 1 is my educated guess), the NCAA (DII) announces whose applications have been accepted - I am told that DII does NOT always accept applications. (DIII has a four-school maximum for any given year, but DII sounds more exclusive than that.)
- Should Tyler be accepted by DII, they will continue to compete in DIII next academic year (2019-20), but are NOT eligible for NCAA tournaments. From what I have gathered, they will remain in the ASC and part of the schedule. I am not sure if they will be eligible for the ASC tournaments.

Hope that all makes sense.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: justafan12 on January 11, 2018, 03:27:35 pm
Story I heard was in the first year of reclassifying (2019), UTT would play a combination of D2 and D3 schools and would not be eligible for ASC tournament.  From there on out, they would play a D2 schedule within their new conference.

From what I know about UTT, there facilities are top notch and they have a very well run athletic department.  I would highly doubt they would not be accepted.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 11, 2018, 03:39:05 pm
The institution definitely fits the general profile of a D-II school. One of the things that has hurt schools moving into D-II from D-III or from other associations is staffing, and UTT does seem to be appropriately staffed (sports information aside).
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: smedindy on January 11, 2018, 06:33:34 pm
The institution definitely fits the general profile of a D-II school. One of the things that has hurt schools moving into D-II from D-III or from other associations is staffing, and UTT does seem to be appropriately staffed (sports information aside).

I do think schools can get away with understaffing and underpaying SIDs because there's so many people wanting in - even as an entry level job.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 11, 2018, 10:09:01 pm
Story I heard was in the first year of reclassifying (2019), UTT would play a combination of D2 and D3 schools and would not be eligible for ASC tournament.  From there on out, they would play a D2 schedule within their new conference.

From what I know about UTT, there facilities are top notch and they have a very well run athletic department.  I would highly doubt they would not be accepted.

Anything is possible, but haven't heard anything official.

As for acceptance... don't count your chickens. It has been stressed to me that DII applications are never a slam-dunk. There is FAR more going on than just facilities and good they are. Furthermore, I always keep in mind the McMurray experiment. I think everyone, even in DIII, acts a little more cautiously even if McMurry is argued to have been an isolated occurrence.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ron Boerger on January 11, 2018, 11:31:23 pm
Story I heard was in the first year of reclassifying (2019), UTT would play a combination of D2 and D3 schools and would not be eligible for ASC tournament.  From there on out, they would play a D2 schedule within their new conference.

From what I know about UTT, there facilities are top notch and they have a very well run athletic department.  I would highly doubt they would not be accepted.

Anything is possible, but haven't heard anything official.

As for acceptance... don't count your chickens. It has been stressed to me that DII applications are never a slam-dunk. There is FAR more going on than just facilities and good they are. Furthermore, I always keep in mind the McMurray experiment. I think everyone, even in DIII, acts a little more cautiously even if McMurry is argued to have been an isolated occurrence.

McMurry - a very small private liberal arts school that was a duck out of water in D2.
UT-T - a growing, decent-sized public school that has been laying the foundation for a move to D2 for some time.

I don't think the Patriots get painted with the brush left behind by the McMurry experience.  D2 may not let them in (IMO a mistake) but it won't be because of the McMurry situation.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 12, 2018, 03:23:48 pm
I'm just indicating there was a lot of things promised by McMurray that has a lot of people soured by the experience. Not saying the schools are in similar situations, but usually a bad experience causes future situations to be handled with more gloves as it where.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 16, 2018, 11:45:03 am
Been working on this for awhile: http://www.d3sports.com/notables/2018/01/benedictine-looking-to-d2
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: smedindy on January 16, 2018, 02:01:42 pm
I don't know if this makes sense for Benedictine. You can be 'visible' and still stay in D-3 by focusing on academics, or the Benedictine ministry, or anything else. Will athletes choose Benedictine over North Central or Wheaton because they get a few scholarship bones thrown their way? Are they trying to out-recruit those kind of schools? Good luck.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 16, 2018, 02:53:58 pm
I honestly don't know whether or not this is a good move for Benedictine, but I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that this will make Benedictine more than competitive against CCIW schools, with whom BU has always tried (and has failed, in the great majority of cases) to compete in sports recruiting, in terms of the specific niche of student-athletes (within D2's roster limits, of course).

I'm just not sure that that's going to translate into institutional success, because there's an awful lot more to the success or failure of a move from D3 to D2 than beating out North Central, Carthage, and Augustana to land Glenbard West High School's middle linebacker.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 16, 2018, 03:01:27 pm
I am very interested in how this will move forward. We have to get passed if they are accepted first, but if they are... I am intrigued if this will work like they think it will (and must think it will or wouldn't have suggested to the board to do it).
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 16, 2018, 05:55:19 pm
I am intrigued if this will work like they think it will (and must think it will or wouldn't have suggested to the board to do it).

But, based upon this article in the BU student newspaper, there was more internal resistance to the move than we previously knew:

From Benedictine's student newspaper this morning...

https://thecandor.wordpress.com/2018/01/16/benedictine-athletics-applies-to-transition-to-division-ii/
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ron Boerger on January 16, 2018, 08:12:44 pm
I am intrigued if this will work like they think it will (and must think it will or wouldn't have suggested to the board to do it).

But, based upon this article in the BU student newspaper, there was more internal resistance to the move than we previously knew:

From Benedictine's student newspaper this morning...

https://thecandor.wordpress.com/2018/01/16/benedictine-athletics-applies-to-transition-to-division-ii/
You can bet that part of the move to D2 are markedly higher, mandatory student athletic assessments (fees).   Gotta pay for these dreams of grandeur somehow.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 17, 2018, 12:41:56 pm
I am intrigued if this will work like they think it will (and must think it will or wouldn't have suggested to the board to do it).

But, based upon this article in the BU student newspaper, there was more internal resistance to the move than we previously knew:

From Benedictine's student newspaper this morning...

https://thecandor.wordpress.com/2018/01/16/benedictine-athletics-applies-to-transition-to-division-ii/

I'm not putting much stock in the article. I know some of the behind the scenes things here and I am willing to bet the quotes were a bit cherry picked.

Couple of things I have noticed int he 24 hours since I checked the article:
- the "votes" at the top of the article, albeit just 4, went from five stars to three... I take that as a knock on the story, not the topic.
- the online vote at the bottom has gone from pretty neck and neck to a 20-point lead for those in favor of the idea.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ralph Turner on January 17, 2018, 01:38:05 pm
I went to the Gulf South Conference webpage to see how Mississippi College did in its first year of full membership.  MC won Men's Soccer and Women's Softball. They were not known for those sports in the ASC.  They apparently have made the transition.  (The Gulf South Conference has  mix of state and private schools.)

They were 8th of 12 in Men, 4th of 12 in Women and 7th overall.

Here is the link to the All-Sports Trophy.

http://www.gscsports.org/documents/2017/6/1//2016_17_All_Sports_Trophy.pdf?id=1947
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 17, 2018, 02:53:01 pm
I am intrigued if this will work like they think it will (and must think it will or wouldn't have suggested to the board to do it).

But, based upon this article in the BU student newspaper, there was more internal resistance to the move than we previously knew:

From Benedictine's student newspaper this morning...

https://thecandor.wordpress.com/2018/01/16/benedictine-athletics-applies-to-transition-to-division-ii/

I'm not putting much stock in the article. I know some of the behind the scenes things here and I am willing to bet the quotes were a bit cherry picked.

The quotes aren't what interested me, since, as you said, the journalistic selectivity involved in quoting bystanders (as opposed to direct actors, such as Pres. Brophy from his e-mail) is open to question. This is what caught my eye in the story:

Quote
Previous to the University announcing their plans to transition to Division II, the University Planning Council met to make a recommendation to the university based on their opinion of the matter. The UPC is an advisory body featuring faculty, staff and administrators from across the campus. In their letter to President Brophy, they recommended that the school did not attempt the transition to Division II. In their letter it said, “A move at this time would be extremely risky and potentially detrimental to the well-being of the institution. The financial risks involved and the investment of dedicated resources to such a move are too significant at this time.”

Advisory body or not, the opinion of a formally-authorized planning council that includes BU faculty, staff, and administrators is not something that can be lightly dismissed.

Couple of things I have noticed int he 24 hours since I checked the article:
- the "votes" at the top of the article, albeit just 4, went from five stars to three... I take that as a knock on the story, not the topic.

Small and self-selected sample size. You should put far less stock in those votes than you do in the article itself. Plus, you could be wrong about the motivation behind those votes. They might've been voting on the topic rather than the story; you and I are not mind-readers in that regard.

- the online vote at the bottom has gone from pretty neck and neck to a 20-point lead for those in favor of the idea.

Same complaint. We have no way of knowing how many people voted according to that poll, or who voted. Since The Candor is an open-market web publication that lacks a firewall or any sort of proprietary control over access, anybody can vote in that poll even if they have absolutely nothing to do with BU.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: justafan12 on January 17, 2018, 03:56:37 pm
Does anyone know specifically what the NCAA requires in the application process for a school wants to move from D3 to a D2?  I can see lots of facility requirements, some compliance issues (officer, Title 9) but just not sure what else.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: justafan12 on January 17, 2018, 04:02:55 pm
Nevermind, I was able to find some info on the NCAA website.  The application fee is $33,000.

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/2018DIIMem_ApplicationInstructions_20171005.pdf
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 17, 2018, 04:10:28 pm
I know one of the reasons why Mississippi College was initially rejected was that their AD was not the full-time AD and also coached a sport. That is far from the norm in Division III anymore, but it was (and presumably is) not allowed at the D-II level.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: WUPHF on January 17, 2018, 04:10:44 pm
I do think that an institutions such Benedictine must be looking closely at Maryville University in suburban St. Louis.  Maryville was a long time member of the SLIAC before making the move to Division II.  They have been getting loads of press for being one of the fastest growing institutions in the United States.  They say specifically that the move to Division II was essential to their plan to the grow enrollment.

I wish I still had it, but years ago, I was able to get their presentation to the campus community as to why the move was necessary.  My friend no longer works there, so that is out.  But the presentation was full of references to the move as key to growing enrollment.  And, despite the scholarship and other costs, key to growing revenue.

They have managed to get a lot of press related to their athletic teams, but a lot of that has to do with luck, hiring local soccer legend Lori Chalupney and a lot of hard work by their PR folks.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ralph Turner on January 18, 2018, 10:13:58 am
Here is an interesting thought on the Benedictine move to D2 from new poster, WW, on the WIAC Football board.
I’m more worried about the changing of the WIAC guard when it comes to trend setting. Used to be UWO was a UWW wannabe, following the Warhawk lead. Is UWW now following the Titan way, including scheduling?

Dang Titans got us comin and goin.

Do you charge UW-0 rent or do you let them live in your head for free? Hope for your sake it's a short-term lease.

I'm fixin to make some room for UWL now too. Gettin crowded up here.

Make some room for Benedictine too. In fact, if I'm a UWW guy, the BU threat is greater than any threat from a WIAC team even if they aren't on the schedule. Next season is expected to be BU's last as D3 before switching to D2. I've long held that the success of WIAC, and UWW in particular, was due to the fact that there was no viable D2 competition anywhere nearby, so a lot of D2-quality kids stayed home. Now skolly money will be coming from just over an hour to the south, and the D2-quality kids whose options were a couple thousand bucks to go to Duluth where nobody will ever see me play, or pay full fare at Whitewater and compete for national titles, well, now there's some D2 money AND it's close to home.

Game-changer, IMO. They'll recruit Wisconsin hard.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 18, 2018, 01:42:59 pm
I hadn't thought of that, since I've focused upon Chicagoland when considering BU's recruiting territory as a D2 school. But, yeah, that makes total sense. A D2 school that plays a pretty comprehensive slate of sports, including football, could very well be bad news for the WIAC schools, too.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: smedindy on January 18, 2018, 05:15:03 pm
The question is how much of their scholarship $$ allotment they will use and in what sports they will focus.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ralph Turner on January 18, 2018, 06:02:14 pm
The question is how much of their scholarship $$ allotment they will use and in what sports they will focus.
My first thought is that BU will impact WIAC women's sports significantly.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: smedindy on January 18, 2018, 07:37:10 pm
The question is how much of their scholarship $$ allotment they will use and in what sports they will focus.
My first thought is that BU will impact WIAC women's sports significantly.

Especially with partial scholarships.

The limit for hoops is 10 equivalents for men's and women's BB, 8 for women's volleyball, 9 for baseball, 7.2 for softball, 10.8 for men's LAX, 9 for women's LAX, 9 for men's soccer, 9.9 for women's soccer, and 36 for football.

I couldn't find their endowment, since they seem not to have submitted to the VSE report. Being a private institution, they don't have to be transparent.

But a full-ride athletics scholarship would be their $33,900 tuition plus room and board. If they fully funded their football scholarships that would be $1.1 million. That's a rounding error for Alabama or Ohio State, but that's serious cash for a small school.

Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 18, 2018, 08:32:14 pm
This is what caught my eye in the story:

Quote
Previous to the University announcing their plans to transition to Division II, the University Planning Council met to make a recommendation to the university based on their opinion of the matter. The UPC is an advisory body featuring faculty, staff and administrators from across the campus. In their letter to President Brophy, they recommended that the school did not attempt the transition to Division II. In their letter it said, “A move at this time would be extremely risky and potentially detrimental to the well-being of the institution. The financial risks involved and the investment of dedicated resources to such a move are too significant at this time.”

Advisory body or not, the opinion of a formally-authorized planning council that includes BU faculty, staff, and administrators is not something that can be lightly dismissed.

That part is what I call into question actually. I would like to see where that quote came from, because this is what we got from the college about a committee that was put together to study the issue:

Quote
"The committee’s comprehensive study was examined through a diligent process and the recommendation to pursue Division II membership was approved by the university’s Board of Trustees.”
[\quote]
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 18, 2018, 09:15:13 pm
I don't think that the Board of Trustees was "put together to study the issue." A Board of Trustees in a higher-education setting is usually the highest governing authority of the school, above the president. Other schools call that body the Board of Governors, or the Board of Directors, but Board of Trustees is pretty common language. I'm willing to bet that the Board of Trustees of Benedictine University runs the school on behalf of the Benedictine Order. The University Planning Council is consultative, and the Board of Trustees is authoritative. In other words, the UPC recommends and the BoT decides. The BoT clearly chose to disregard the UPC's recommendation when it decided to do the opposite.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ralph Turner on January 18, 2018, 09:59:41 pm
The question is how much of their scholarship $$ allotment they will use and in what sports they will focus.
My first thought is that BU will impact WIAC women's sports significantly.

Especially with partial scholarships.

The limit for hoops is 10 equivalents for men's and women's BB, 8 for women's volleyball, 9 for baseball, 7.2 for softball, 10.8 for men's LAX, 9 for women's LAX, 9 for men's soccer, 9.9 for women's soccer, and 36 for football.

I couldn't find their endowment, since they seem not to have submitted to the VSE report. Being a private institution, they don't have to be transparent.

But a full-ride athletics scholarship would be their $33,900 tuition plus room and board. If they fully funded their football scholarships that would be $1.1 million. That's a rounding error for Alabama or Ohio State, but that's serious cash for a small school.
10 scholarships for hoops. I can see BU getting two of the Top 3-4 WIAC recruits every year, especially for the women.

How much money do they lose from Scholar Athletes not wanting to pay to sit on the bench?
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 18, 2018, 10:12:56 pm
I don't think that the Board of Trustees was "put together to study the issue." A Board of Trustees in a higher-education setting is usually the highest governing authority of the school, above the president. Other schools call that body the Board of Governors, or the Board of Directors, but Board of Trustees is pretty common language. I'm willing to bet that the Board of Trustees of Benedictine University runs the school on behalf of the Benedictine Order. The University Planning Council is consultative, and the Board of Trustees is authoritative. In other words, the UPC recommends and the BoT decides. The BoT clearly chose to disregard the UPC's recommendation when it decided to do the opposite.

No... a committee was put together to advise the Board of Trustees.

The quote reads: ""The committee’s comprehensive study was examined through a diligent process and the recommendation to pursue Division II membership was approved by the university’s Board of Trustees.”

A committee recommended pursing DII and the Board of Trustees voted in agreement.

My point is.. either the student newspaper has information that isn't accurate - I have no idea if that is the case - or that the committee they are sourcing wasn't the committee asked by the University, Board of Trustees, etc. to look into the idea. According to a statement sent to us from a Benedictine source, the committee recommended pursuing Division II.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ron Boerger on January 18, 2018, 10:51:26 pm
The question is how much of their scholarship $$ allotment they will use and in what sports they will focus.
My first thought is that BU will impact WIAC women's sports significantly.

Especially with partial scholarships.

The limit for hoops is 10 equivalents for men's and women's BB, 8 for women's volleyball, 9 for baseball, 7.2 for softball, 10.8 for men's LAX, 9 for women's LAX, 9 for men's soccer, 9.9 for women's soccer, and 36 for football.

I couldn't find their endowment, since they seem not to have submitted to the VSE report. Being a private institution, they don't have to be transparent.

But a full-ride athletics scholarship would be their $33,900 tuition plus room and board. If they fully funded their football scholarships that would be $1.1 million. That's a rounding error for Alabama or Ohio State, but that's serious cash for a small school.


Benedictine has several campuses.    According to this article (http://www.sj-r.com/article/20141101/news/141109945), in 2013 the entire collection had an endowment of $47.7 million.  And by 2015, according to this article (http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20150609/NEWS13/150609780/benedictine-u-chooses-first-new-leader-in-20-years), the endowment had declined to $39 million.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 19, 2018, 12:35:20 am
I don't think that the Board of Trustees was "put together to study the issue." A Board of Trustees in a higher-education setting is usually the highest governing authority of the school, above the president. Other schools call that body the Board of Governors, or the Board of Directors, but Board of Trustees is pretty common language. I'm willing to bet that the Board of Trustees of Benedictine University runs the school on behalf of the Benedictine Order. The University Planning Council is consultative, and the Board of Trustees is authoritative. In other words, the UPC recommends and the BoT decides. The BoT clearly chose to disregard the UPC's recommendation when it decided to do the opposite.

No... a committee was put together to advise the Board of Trustees.

The quote reads: ""The committee’s comprehensive study was examined through a diligent process and the recommendation to pursue Division II membership was approved by the university’s Board of Trustees.”

A committee recommended pursing DII and the Board of Trustees voted in agreement.

My point is.. either the student newspaper has information that isn't accurate - I have no idea if that is the case - or that the committee they are sourcing wasn't the committee asked by the University, Board of Trustees, etc. to look into the idea. According to a statement sent to us from a Benedictine source, the committee recommended pursuing Division II.

I thought that it was just a vaguely-worded statement that said that BoT took the UPC's recommendation under consideration and then set it aside in favor of a "recommendation" (i.e., a motion) made within the BoT meeting to approve the switch to D2.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on January 19, 2018, 07:39:07 am

Wasn't there a study committee at BU like 4-5 years ago when the D2 rumors first started?  Maybe the student newspaper referenced an older group that wasn't part of this process?
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 19, 2018, 11:28:55 am
Perhaps, but, given that they're students, they're less likely to have firsthand knowledge or awareness of a committee that existed four or five years previous. And it wouldn't make much sense to refer to a committee that's now a matter of institutional memory rather than a current or recent committee that has since superseded it without distinguishing between the two.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 19, 2018, 11:39:15 am
I don't think that the Board of Trustees was "put together to study the issue." A Board of Trustees in a higher-education setting is usually the highest governing authority of the school, above the president. Other schools call that body the Board of Governors, or the Board of Directors, but Board of Trustees is pretty common language. I'm willing to bet that the Board of Trustees of Benedictine University runs the school on behalf of the Benedictine Order. The University Planning Council is consultative, and the Board of Trustees is authoritative. In other words, the UPC recommends and the BoT decides. The BoT clearly chose to disregard the UPC's recommendation when it decided to do the opposite.

No... a committee was put together to advise the Board of Trustees.

The quote reads: ""The committee’s comprehensive study was examined through a diligent process and the recommendation to pursue Division II membership was approved by the university’s Board of Trustees.”

A committee recommended pursing DII and the Board of Trustees voted in agreement.

My point is.. either the student newspaper has information that isn't accurate - I have no idea if that is the case - or that the committee they are sourcing wasn't the committee asked by the University, Board of Trustees, etc. to look into the idea. According to a statement sent to us from a Benedictine source, the committee recommended pursuing Division II.

I thought that it was just a vaguely-worded statement that said that BoT took the UPC's recommendation under consideration and then set it aside in favor of a "recommendation" (i.e., a motion) made within the BoT meeting to approve the switch to D2.

As the one who had conversations with those who needed to be contacted... I didn't interrupt it that way at all. I took it that a committee that was put together last year to look into the idea came back with recommendations to pursue application to Division II and that's what they told the BoT. The BoT then voted in favor of the idea. I don't know what board the student paper was referring to, but I plan to circle back and double-check with individuals about it all - when I can. Most are at the NCAA convention; I picked a hell of year to not go to the convention.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: WUPHF on January 19, 2018, 11:47:16 am
That is an interesting idea that Benedictine would poach players who would otherwise end up in the WIAC.

I thought looking at the Minnesota schools may give some insight on to this, but I think the only conclusion I know for sure: if you want to play Division II basketball at a place that cares about basketball more than hockey, Benedictine may be a good place to look.

A quick glance at a few rosters:

Mankato: 1 Wisconsin (6 Illinois)
Minnesota-Crookston: 1 Wisconsin
Minnesota-Duluth: 9 Wisconsin
Winona State: 4 Wisconsin
Southwest Minnesota: 1 Wisconsin
St. Cloud: 2 Wisconsin
Bemidji: 2 Wisconsin
Augustana (SD): O Wisconsin
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ron Boerger on January 19, 2018, 12:09:36 pm
So even if Benedictine *does* poach some WIAC players, the overall impact is going to be small.   They're only one school with a limited number of schollys to spread around; divvy that up against the number of WIAC schools and you're talking a few players per sport per school at most, less in sports like basketball, and some of these guys are going to get a better aid package from a WAIC school (which is cheaper to begin with) than a school with as few resources as Benedictine.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 19, 2018, 02:11:31 pm
I think Benedictine's impact will be more felt in the Chicagoland area than in the Wisconsin region. Not saying that won't be a recruiting area, but I get the sense Benedictine may favor the Chicagoland area where they could pick up players who may not feel they have as many DII options.

That all said, we know a LOT of examples in DIII especially in that part of the country where players turn down low-end DI and DII ofters to play at DIII for whatever reason. Benedictine isn't going to change those scenarios. They aren't going to suddenly offer more money or change the minds of players who find the opportunities in DIII more appealing for whatever reason. If there are WIAC players who could be poached, would one think they would already be poached? I don't think one more school with ten scholarships will drastically change that conversation. Maybe a player or two here and there, but players chose DIII for a lot of reasons... not sure Benedictine just suddenly sways that reasoning.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 19, 2018, 02:12:17 pm
Yes, numbers are why I think it'd affect football more than other sports.

I'm going to be very curious to find out how much each BU sport is going to be allotted in terms of scholie money -- and, in a matter intimately connected to that, I'm going to be very curious as to whether or not BU retains all of its current sports.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 19, 2018, 02:27:52 pm
Yes, numbers are why I think it'd affect football more than other sports.

I'm going to be very curious to find out how much each BU sport is going to be allotted in terms of scholie money -- and, in a matter intimately connected to that, I'm going to be very curious as to whether or not BU retains all of its current sports.

Yeah - football is a much bigger player in this game than any other sport, to be sure.

And yes, I do watch to see if sports are affected. My gut says no, but my brain says... probably.

BTW - they still have to get their application in to the NCAA... the NCAA has to accept their application... then there is a multi-month review of the application including site visit(s)... and then the NCAA (DII) has to accept them to the division (not a DII vote as some thought). This isn't exactly guaranteed to happen. It probably will, but there are still a few steps including an entire year still playing in Division III, though not eligible for NCAA postseason/championships.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 19, 2018, 02:38:19 pm
That all said, we know a LOT of examples in DIII especially in that part of the country where players turn down low-end DI and DII ofters to play at DIII for whatever reason. Benedictine isn't going to change those scenarios. They aren't going to suddenly offer more money or change the minds of players who find the opportunities in DIII more appealing for whatever reason. If there are WIAC players who could be poached, would one think they would already be poached? I don't think one more school with ten scholarships will drastically change that conversation. Maybe a player or two here and there, but players chose DIII for a lot of reasons... not sure Benedictine just suddenly sways that reasoning.

You're underestimating the allure of an athletic scholarship, Dave. Even in this part of the country, where CCIW and WIAC schools do occasionally land high-school seniors who've also received scholie offers, a scholarship offer is still the recruiting trump card in the vast majority of cases. That holds true even for NAIA schools, from whom the money divvied up from the scholie-money pool can be positively tiny from a student-athlete's perspective (I've heard of NAIA scholie players getting as little as $750 a year), because even if there's little money involved there's still the status and the ego stroke of being able to tell people that you're in college on a basketball or football or baseball scholarship.

Minnesota D2s are already bringing in lots of Wisconsin student-athletes, or at least enough for WIAC fans to complain about it (or at least note it) in d3boards.com rooms. And the word "poached" is misleading, in that it connotes prior ownership. D2 schools in Minnesota recruit in Wisconsin, but they're not "poaching" WIAC student-athletes; Wisconsin high-schoolers freely choose where to go to school, whether it's at a D2 or a private in-state D3 or somewhere else. The WIAC doesn't have pre-existing rights to them.

Benedictine is going to flip the script in terms of its long-standing and usually futile struggle to recruit against its CCIW neighbors. Lewis, the only Chicagoland D2, is located in Romeoville, a mere fifteen miles south of BU's campus in Lisle. Who wins when Lewis goes up against a CCIW school or CCIW schools in competition for a high-school athletic prospect? Lewis does, that's who. That's a track record that has been borne out over the 37 years in which Lewis has been a member of D2. Benedictine will be no different.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 19, 2018, 02:44:21 pm
Greg - I am not underestimating anything. Please stop assuming things when I write... it gets a little annoying. Nothing I wrote indicates anything about underestimating anything. I am just presenting a point of view.

I am fully aware of the scholarship draw. I see it all around and all the time. I hear conversations that go somewhere along the lines of, "he needs to get a scholarship" or "we are only looking at scholarship schools" and whatnot. I know of student-athletes who didn't get D1 or D2 offers and then didn't play sports... not realizing how they could have been just fine, if not in a better situation, at a DIII school. Or they couldn't handle the hit to their ego or with others about going to DIII - because they and others completely misunderstand DIII.

I also know of plenty of stories of DIII SAs who have turned down D1 and D2 offers and played DIII for a host of their own reasons: better scholarship offers for merit (22.5-times more money in academic money than athletic money in the NCAA), the degree they wanted to pursue wasn't at the schools offering, they didn't want the pressure, they wanted to play with friends, they wanted to play on teams with championship potential, etc.

I suspect Benedictine may find success, but I don't think it is such a huge impact that suddenly the WIAC is going to take a massive hit in talent. We know of WIAC SAs who have turned down scholarships as well.

I am not underestimating anything... I just don't think it will be as impactful as others feel. That isn't underestimating, it just isn't buying into what I think is overestimating.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 19, 2018, 02:46:20 pm
I'm going to be very curious to find out how much each BU sport is going to be allotted in terms of scholie money -- and, in a matter intimately connected to that, I'm going to be very curious as to whether or not BU retains all of its current sports.

Can't speak for the other sports, but when I saw they had lacrosse, I looked at the state of Division II lacrosse in the area. It seems viable in terms of the number of opponents.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Division_II_lacrosse_programs
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: WUPHF on January 19, 2018, 03:01:04 pm
You're underestimating the allure of an athletic scholarship...

I am sure I bored you all with this story before, but back when I worked at a NAIA school, I had a coach offer an extremely high need recruit a $1000 scholarship.  The scholarship reduced his needed-based aid by $1000 so no net reduction in the overall expenses, but he believed that was critical to the commitment.  That was not outside the norm.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Gray Fox on January 19, 2018, 03:37:07 pm
I hope the people at Chapman are reading this discussion.
 I am sure this is their long term goal.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Gregory Sager on January 19, 2018, 03:40:16 pm
Greg - I am not underestimating anything. Please stop assuming things when I write... it gets a little annoying. Nothing I wrote indicates anything about underestimating anything. I am just presenting a point of view.

I'm not assuming, Dave. I'm simply trying to interpret your words at face value, especially when you capitalize "LOT" and you mention "that part of the country".

I am fully aware of the scholarship draw. I see it all around and all the time. I hear conversations that go somewhere along the lines of, "he needs to get a scholarship" or "we are only looking at scholarship schools" and whatnot. I know of student-athletes who didn't get D1 or D2 offers and then didn't play sports... not realizing how they could have been just fine, if not in a better situation, at a DIII school. Or they couldn't handle the hit to their ego or with others about going to DIII - because they and others completely misunderstand DIII.

I also know of plenty of stories of DIII SAs who have turned down D1 and D2 offers and played DIII for a host of their own reasons: better scholarship offers for merit (22.5-times more money in academic money than athletic money in the NCAA), the degree they wanted to pursue wasn't at the schools offering, they didn't want the pressure, they wanted to play with friends, they wanted to play on teams with championship potential, etc.

I suspect Benedictine may find success, but I don't think it is such a huge impact that suddenly the WIAC is going to take a massive hit in talent. We know of WIAC SAs who have turned down scholarships as well.

I am not underestimating anything... I just don't think it will be as impactful as others feel. That isn't underestimating, it just isn't buying into what I think is overestimating.

We've all heard those stories. I've heard more than my fair share of them over the years, too. But I know enough about the nuts-and-bolts of D3 recruiting to be well aware that those stories do not represent the majority of recruiting contacts.

I don't think we're far apart on this at all. I agree that the impact upon the WIAC of BU's move will probably be minimal ... but not because student-athletes turning down scholie offers is anything close to being the typical scenario, let alone the recruiting paradigm. As I said, in most cases the scholie school wins out over the D3 school if a letter-of-intent is proffered by the scholie school. I think that BU's move will have minimal effect upon the WIAC because, as others have pointed out, BU is just one school and it has a limited amount of scholies to offer in any given sport.

I hope the people at Chapman are reading this discussion.
 I am sure this is their long term goal.

Really? And after that school's administration just succeeded not too long ago in getting Chapman into the SCIAC after-- what, decades? -- of busting its hump to get the SCIAC to open the door?

I guess that stuff like that shouldn't surprise me anymore.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: smedindy on January 19, 2018, 05:29:47 pm
I hope the people at Chapman are reading this discussion.
 I am sure this is their long term goal.

Really? I dunno. Cal Baptist just went to D-1 from the D-2 Pac West. That's where they'd probably align for most sports. That means travel to Hawaii and Utah.

The CCAA will be all Cal State school when UCSD goes to D-1 soon. The GNAC is a possibility for football - since Azusa and Humboldt are affiliate members. But that means football travel to the Vancouver BC area and Ellensburg, WA.

One thing Chapman has for it is a large endowment - but how much is going to be available for athletics. They have a goal to reach a billion in endowment at some point (good luck with that), but I don't think D-1 athletics gets you there...

Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: justafan12 on February 05, 2018, 03:16:32 pm
UT Tyler has officially applied for DII status.

https://tylerpaper.com/news/local/ut-tyler-submits-ncaa-division-ii-athletics-application/article_9cfbd9d8-0827-11e8-bfef-fb451e040960.html
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 06, 2018, 02:07:40 pm
FYI - a source confirms that Benedictine did officially apply for DII membership. We won't know an answer until June at the earliest from the NCAA/DII.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ron Boerger on February 07, 2018, 08:49:03 am
UT Tyler has officially applied for DII status.

https://tylerpaper.com/news/local/ut-tyler-submits-ncaa-division-ii-athletics-application/article_9cfbd9d8-0827-11e8-bfef-fb451e040960.html

“We believe investing in a strong athletics program yields returns in several key areas including student and alumni engagement, brand awareness and school spirit,” said Dr. Michael Tidwell, UT Tyler president. “Playing at the more competitive Division II level will bring additional excitement to our athletics events, as well as provide new opportunities for new scholarships.”

I just hate this attitude, because:

(1) there was and is nothing keeping them from "investing in a strong athletics program" at the D3 level.
(2) at the apparently 'less competitive Division III level' UT-T's best finish in the NACDA Directors Cup standing was a 16th three years ago, keyed by such marquee sports as golf, softball, tennis, and T&F.   UT-T always shows up big in spring sports but have had markedly less success in the fall and winter. 

They're a better fit for the all-public school Lone Star Conference than the largely private school-based ASC anyway.   Buh-bye. 
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ralph Turner on February 07, 2018, 11:13:47 am
UT Tyler has officially applied for DII status.

https://tylerpaper.com/news/local/ut-tyler-submits-ncaa-division-ii-athletics-application/article_9cfbd9d8-0827-11e8-bfef-fb451e040960.html

“We believe investing in a strong athletics program yields returns in several key areas including student and alumni engagement, brand awareness and school spirit,” said Dr. Michael Tidwell, UT Tyler president. “Playing at the more competitive Division II level will bring additional excitement to our athletics events, as well as provide new opportunities for new scholarships.”

I just hate this attitude, because:

(1) there was and is nothing keeping them from "investing in a strong athletics program" at the D3 level.
(2) at the apparently 'less competitive Division III level' UT-T's best finish in the NACDA Directors Cup standing was a 16th three years ago, keyed by such marquee sports as golf, softball, tennis, and T&F.   UT-T always shows up big in spring sports but have had markedly less success in the fall and winter. 

They're a better fit for the all-public school Lone Star Conference than the largely private school-based ASC anyway.   Buh-bye.
Not to say that UTT has not been strong in the fall sports, tho'. The fall teams are always in the top half of the conference in the sports in which they compete, M&W XC, M&W Soccer, VB.

Were I assigning a "All-Sports" trophy in the ASC, UTT would probably win it more often than any other school in the last decade.

It is back to a 12-school ASC now.  I see no apparent future members at this time.

I wonder if there is a move inside UTD to change the emphasis of their intercollegiate profile now.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: justafan12 on February 07, 2018, 01:36:22 pm
UT Tyler has officially applied for DII status.

https://tylerpaper.com/news/local/ut-tyler-submits-ncaa-division-ii-athletics-application/article_9cfbd9d8-0827-11e8-bfef-fb451e040960.html

“We believe investing in a strong athletics program yields returns in several key areas including student and alumni engagement, brand awareness and school spirit,” said Dr. Michael Tidwell, UT Tyler president. “Playing at the more competitive Division II level will bring additional excitement to our athletics events, as well as provide new opportunities for new scholarships.”

I just hate this attitude, because:

(1) there was and is nothing keeping them from "investing in a strong athletics program" at the D3 level.
(2) at the apparently 'less competitive Division III level' UT-T's best finish in the NACDA Directors Cup standing was a 16th three years ago, keyed by such marquee sports as golf, softball, tennis, and T&F.   UT-T always shows up big in spring sports but have had markedly less success in the fall and winter. 

They're a better fit for the all-public school Lone Star Conference than the largely private school-based ASC anyway.   Buh-bye.

Note that the President made those observations after being on the job a little over one year.  As I mentioned earlier it was his goal to make this move when he took the position.

It is probably a good move as I have heard rumblings that the ASC private schools may leave the ASC and form their own conference.  They have long wanted to bump UT Tyler and UT Dallas (state schools) out of the conference but could not since Sul Ross, who is a state school, was a charter member of the conference.

UT Dallas would be a prime candidate to jump ship as well.  They are very competitive in most D3 sports (basketball, softball, baseball and VB come to mind) but not sure their facilities are up to snuff.

Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Ralph Turner on February 07, 2018, 01:40:25 pm
Re: UT-D

In a SWOT (Strengths Weaknesses Opportunities Threats) analysis of a potential move from D3 to D2, facilities would come up as something UTD would need to address.
Title: Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 07, 2018, 03:08:40 pm
DII more competitive than DIII? Bull****.