Author Topic: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?  (Read 10785 times)

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
« Reply #90 on: January 19, 2018, 11:28:55 am »
Perhaps, but, given that they're students, they're less likely to have firsthand knowledge or awareness of a committee that existed four or five years previous. And it wouldn't make much sense to refer to a committee that's now a matter of institutional memory rather than a current or recent committee that has since superseded it without distinguishing between the two.
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Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
« Reply #91 on: January 19, 2018, 11:39:15 am »
I don't think that the Board of Trustees was "put together to study the issue." A Board of Trustees in a higher-education setting is usually the highest governing authority of the school, above the president. Other schools call that body the Board of Governors, or the Board of Directors, but Board of Trustees is pretty common language. I'm willing to bet that the Board of Trustees of Benedictine University runs the school on behalf of the Benedictine Order. The University Planning Council is consultative, and the Board of Trustees is authoritative. In other words, the UPC recommends and the BoT decides. The BoT clearly chose to disregard the UPC's recommendation when it decided to do the opposite.

No... a committee was put together to advise the Board of Trustees.

The quote reads: ""The committee’s comprehensive study was examined through a diligent process and the recommendation to pursue Division II membership was approved by the university’s Board of Trustees.”

A committee recommended pursing DII and the Board of Trustees voted in agreement.

My point is.. either the student newspaper has information that isn't accurate - I have no idea if that is the case - or that the committee they are sourcing wasn't the committee asked by the University, Board of Trustees, etc. to look into the idea. According to a statement sent to us from a Benedictine source, the committee recommended pursuing Division II.

I thought that it was just a vaguely-worded statement that said that BoT took the UPC's recommendation under consideration and then set it aside in favor of a "recommendation" (i.e., a motion) made within the BoT meeting to approve the switch to D2.

As the one who had conversations with those who needed to be contacted... I didn't interrupt it that way at all. I took it that a committee that was put together last year to look into the idea came back with recommendations to pursue application to Division II and that's what they told the BoT. The BoT then voted in favor of the idea. I don't know what board the student paper was referring to, but I plan to circle back and double-check with individuals about it all - when I can. Most are at the NCAA convention; I picked a hell of year to not go to the convention.
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Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
« Reply #92 on: January 19, 2018, 11:47:16 am »
That is an interesting idea that Benedictine would poach players who would otherwise end up in the WIAC.

I thought looking at the Minnesota schools may give some insight on to this, but I think the only conclusion I know for sure: if you want to play Division II basketball at a place that cares about basketball more than hockey, Benedictine may be a good place to look.

A quick glance at a few rosters:

Mankato: 1 Wisconsin (6 Illinois)
Minnesota-Crookston: 1 Wisconsin
Minnesota-Duluth: 9 Wisconsin
Winona State: 4 Wisconsin
Southwest Minnesota: 1 Wisconsin
St. Cloud: 2 Wisconsin
Bemidji: 2 Wisconsin
Augustana (SD): O Wisconsin

Online Ron Boerger

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Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
« Reply #93 on: January 19, 2018, 12:09:36 pm »
So even if Benedictine *does* poach some WIAC players, the overall impact is going to be small.   They're only one school with a limited number of schollys to spread around; divvy that up against the number of WIAC schools and you're talking a few players per sport per school at most, less in sports like basketball, and some of these guys are going to get a better aid package from a WAIC school (which is cheaper to begin with) than a school with as few resources as Benedictine.

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
« Reply #94 on: January 19, 2018, 02:11:31 pm »
I think Benedictine's impact will be more felt in the Chicagoland area than in the Wisconsin region. Not saying that won't be a recruiting area, but I get the sense Benedictine may favor the Chicagoland area where they could pick up players who may not feel they have as many DII options.

That all said, we know a LOT of examples in DIII especially in that part of the country where players turn down low-end DI and DII ofters to play at DIII for whatever reason. Benedictine isn't going to change those scenarios. They aren't going to suddenly offer more money or change the minds of players who find the opportunities in DIII more appealing for whatever reason. If there are WIAC players who could be poached, would one think they would already be poached? I don't think one more school with ten scholarships will drastically change that conversation. Maybe a player or two here and there, but players chose DIII for a lot of reasons... not sure Benedictine just suddenly sways that reasoning.
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Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
« Reply #95 on: January 19, 2018, 02:12:17 pm »
Yes, numbers are why I think it'd affect football more than other sports.

I'm going to be very curious to find out how much each BU sport is going to be allotted in terms of scholie money -- and, in a matter intimately connected to that, I'm going to be very curious as to whether or not BU retains all of its current sports.
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Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
« Reply #96 on: January 19, 2018, 02:27:52 pm »
Yes, numbers are why I think it'd affect football more than other sports.

I'm going to be very curious to find out how much each BU sport is going to be allotted in terms of scholie money -- and, in a matter intimately connected to that, I'm going to be very curious as to whether or not BU retains all of its current sports.

Yeah - football is a much bigger player in this game than any other sport, to be sure.

And yes, I do watch to see if sports are affected. My gut says no, but my brain says... probably.

BTW - they still have to get their application in to the NCAA... the NCAA has to accept their application... then there is a multi-month review of the application including site visit(s)... and then the NCAA (DII) has to accept them to the division (not a DII vote as some thought). This isn't exactly guaranteed to happen. It probably will, but there are still a few steps including an entire year still playing in Division III, though not eligible for NCAA postseason/championships.
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Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
« Reply #97 on: January 19, 2018, 02:38:19 pm »
That all said, we know a LOT of examples in DIII especially in that part of the country where players turn down low-end DI and DII ofters to play at DIII for whatever reason. Benedictine isn't going to change those scenarios. They aren't going to suddenly offer more money or change the minds of players who find the opportunities in DIII more appealing for whatever reason. If there are WIAC players who could be poached, would one think they would already be poached? I don't think one more school with ten scholarships will drastically change that conversation. Maybe a player or two here and there, but players chose DIII for a lot of reasons... not sure Benedictine just suddenly sways that reasoning.

You're underestimating the allure of an athletic scholarship, Dave. Even in this part of the country, where CCIW and WIAC schools do occasionally land high-school seniors who've also received scholie offers, a scholarship offer is still the recruiting trump card in the vast majority of cases. That holds true even for NAIA schools, from whom the money divvied up from the scholie-money pool can be positively tiny from a student-athlete's perspective (I've heard of NAIA scholie players getting as little as $750 a year), because even if there's little money involved there's still the status and the ego stroke of being able to tell people that you're in college on a basketball or football or baseball scholarship.

Minnesota D2s are already bringing in lots of Wisconsin student-athletes, or at least enough for WIAC fans to complain about it (or at least note it) in d3boards.com rooms. And the word "poached" is misleading, in that it connotes prior ownership. D2 schools in Minnesota recruit in Wisconsin, but they're not "poaching" WIAC student-athletes; Wisconsin high-schoolers freely choose where to go to school, whether it's at a D2 or a private in-state D3 or somewhere else. The WIAC doesn't have pre-existing rights to them.

Benedictine is going to flip the script in terms of its long-standing and usually futile struggle to recruit against its CCIW neighbors. Lewis, the only Chicagoland D2, is located in Romeoville, a mere fifteen miles south of BU's campus in Lisle. Who wins when Lewis goes up against a CCIW school or CCIW schools in competition for a high-school athletic prospect? Lewis does, that's who. That's a track record that has been borne out over the 37 years in which Lewis has been a member of D2. Benedictine will be no different.
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Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
« Reply #98 on: January 19, 2018, 02:44:21 pm »
Greg - I am not underestimating anything. Please stop assuming things when I write... it gets a little annoying. Nothing I wrote indicates anything about underestimating anything. I am just presenting a point of view.

I am fully aware of the scholarship draw. I see it all around and all the time. I hear conversations that go somewhere along the lines of, "he needs to get a scholarship" or "we are only looking at scholarship schools" and whatnot. I know of student-athletes who didn't get D1 or D2 offers and then didn't play sports... not realizing how they could have been just fine, if not in a better situation, at a DIII school. Or they couldn't handle the hit to their ego or with others about going to DIII - because they and others completely misunderstand DIII.

I also know of plenty of stories of DIII SAs who have turned down D1 and D2 offers and played DIII for a host of their own reasons: better scholarship offers for merit (22.5-times more money in academic money than athletic money in the NCAA), the degree they wanted to pursue wasn't at the schools offering, they didn't want the pressure, they wanted to play with friends, they wanted to play on teams with championship potential, etc.

I suspect Benedictine may find success, but I don't think it is such a huge impact that suddenly the WIAC is going to take a massive hit in talent. We know of WIAC SAs who have turned down scholarships as well.

I am not underestimating anything... I just don't think it will be as impactful as others feel. That isn't underestimating, it just isn't buying into what I think is overestimating.
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Offline Pat Coleman

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Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
« Reply #99 on: January 19, 2018, 02:46:20 pm »
I'm going to be very curious to find out how much each BU sport is going to be allotted in terms of scholie money -- and, in a matter intimately connected to that, I'm going to be very curious as to whether or not BU retains all of its current sports.

Can't speak for the other sports, but when I saw they had lacrosse, I looked at the state of Division II lacrosse in the area. It seems viable in terms of the number of opponents.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Division_II_lacrosse_programs
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Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
« Reply #100 on: January 19, 2018, 03:01:04 pm »
You're underestimating the allure of an athletic scholarship...

I am sure I bored you all with this story before, but back when I worked at a NAIA school, I had a coach offer an extremely high need recruit a $1000 scholarship.  The scholarship reduced his needed-based aid by $1000 so no net reduction in the overall expenses, but he believed that was critical to the commitment.  That was not outside the norm.

Offline Gray Fox

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Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
« Reply #101 on: January 19, 2018, 03:37:07 pm »
I hope the people at Chapman are reading this discussion.
 I am sure this is their long term goal.
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Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
« Reply #102 on: January 19, 2018, 03:40:16 pm »
Greg - I am not underestimating anything. Please stop assuming things when I write... it gets a little annoying. Nothing I wrote indicates anything about underestimating anything. I am just presenting a point of view.

I'm not assuming, Dave. I'm simply trying to interpret your words at face value, especially when you capitalize "LOT" and you mention "that part of the country".

I am fully aware of the scholarship draw. I see it all around and all the time. I hear conversations that go somewhere along the lines of, "he needs to get a scholarship" or "we are only looking at scholarship schools" and whatnot. I know of student-athletes who didn't get D1 or D2 offers and then didn't play sports... not realizing how they could have been just fine, if not in a better situation, at a DIII school. Or they couldn't handle the hit to their ego or with others about going to DIII - because they and others completely misunderstand DIII.

I also know of plenty of stories of DIII SAs who have turned down D1 and D2 offers and played DIII for a host of their own reasons: better scholarship offers for merit (22.5-times more money in academic money than athletic money in the NCAA), the degree they wanted to pursue wasn't at the schools offering, they didn't want the pressure, they wanted to play with friends, they wanted to play on teams with championship potential, etc.

I suspect Benedictine may find success, but I don't think it is such a huge impact that suddenly the WIAC is going to take a massive hit in talent. We know of WIAC SAs who have turned down scholarships as well.

I am not underestimating anything... I just don't think it will be as impactful as others feel. That isn't underestimating, it just isn't buying into what I think is overestimating.

We've all heard those stories. I've heard more than my fair share of them over the years, too. But I know enough about the nuts-and-bolts of D3 recruiting to be well aware that those stories do not represent the majority of recruiting contacts.

I don't think we're far apart on this at all. I agree that the impact upon the WIAC of BU's move will probably be minimal ... but not because student-athletes turning down scholie offers is anything close to being the typical scenario, let alone the recruiting paradigm. As I said, in most cases the scholie school wins out over the D3 school if a letter-of-intent is proffered by the scholie school. I think that BU's move will have minimal effect upon the WIAC because, as others have pointed out, BU is just one school and it has a limited amount of scholies to offer in any given sport.

I hope the people at Chapman are reading this discussion.
 I am sure this is their long term goal.

Really? And after that school's administration just succeeded not too long ago in getting Chapman into the SCIAC after-- what, decades? -- of busting its hump to get the SCIAC to open the door?

I guess that stuff like that shouldn't surprise me anymore.
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Offline smedindy

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Re: Compelling reasons to move from D3 to D2?
« Reply #103 on: January 19, 2018, 05:29:47 pm »
I hope the people at Chapman are reading this discussion.
 I am sure this is their long term goal.

Really? I dunno. Cal Baptist just went to D-1 from the D-2 Pac West. That's where they'd probably align for most sports. That means travel to Hawaii and Utah.

The CCAA will be all Cal State school when UCSD goes to D-1 soon. The GNAC is a possibility for football - since Azusa and Humboldt are affiliate members. But that means football travel to the Vancouver BC area and Ellensburg, WA.

One thing Chapman has for it is a large endowment - but how much is going to be available for athletics. They have a goal to reach a billion in endowment at some point (good luck with that), but I don't think D-1 athletics gets you there...


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