MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

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Gregory Sager

#43456
Quote from: D3_Commenter on December 01, 2016, 09:32:59 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 30, 2016, 03:50:25 PM
Quote from: lmitzel on November 30, 2016, 06:55:37 AMWe even discussed after the game that neither of us really had any words to describe what the hell had just happened. I settled for "trap game,"

Quote from: D3_Commenter on November 30, 2016, 09:30:59 AMtrap game

I've never quite understood why fans invariably resort to the "trap game" explanation for an unexpected loss that precedes an important game. On the one hand, it may simply be the tendency to fall into groupthink or to rummage through the cliche box when their team suffers that kind of an upset, and in that sense it's probably not worth analyzing too deeply. But on the other hand, I sometimes sense that fans are groping for an excuse rather than an explanation, which is completely understandable; the natural tendency of a fan is to disproportionally attribute the outcome of a game to his own team, whether it's a win or a loss.

Forget the "trap game" stuff, guys. Just tip your caps to UW-Platteville and congratulate the Pioneers on a job really, really well done.



It is not a cliche at all trap games happen, to many teams. Indiana just lost to Fort Wayne before beating North Carolina. If you have been an athlete at a high level you will understand that there is a tendency to overlook opponents with a big game looming. It happens to the best of teams at all levels. This is in noway an excuse to justify NCC's loss, just a mere observation of a good team in a young season.

In all seriousness trap games are very much a real thing - You would have to be blind as a fan to not point out something that obvious.

I've already said that trap games happen sometimes. But they don't happen nearly as often as some fans think that they do, which is one reason why the concept has degenerated into a cliche. F'rinstance, you're positing that Indiana's loss to IPFW was because it was a trap game. However, there's two things wrong with your assertion: 1) the loss to the Mastodons took place a full eight days before the Hoosiers played UNC; and 2) there was an intervening game for Indiana between IPFW and UNC, Mississippi Valley State. If Indiana faced a possible trap game, MVSU would have been the trapper, not IPFW, because the MVSU game is the one that preceded the North Carolina contest on the Indiana sked, and it was played only three days before the Hoosiers hosted the Tarheels in Bloomington. But Indiana crushed the Delta Devils by 33 points.

(I feel dirty for having to discuss D1 games here. ;))

NCC's loss to UWP wasn't because it was a trap game. I've already explained why it wasn't one.

Quote from: D3_Commenter on December 01, 2016, 09:32:59 AM
Pioneers did well sticking to a game plan but, NCC lost - UWP did not win

That is simply not true, and you're doing a real disservice to an outstanding UWP effort by saying it.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

D3_Commenter

It is not a cliche at all trap games happen, to many teams. Indiana just lost to Fort Wayne before beating North Carolina. If you have been an athlete at a high level you will understand that there is a tendency to overlook opponents with a big game looming. It happens to the best of teams at all levels. This is in noway an excuse to justify NCC's loss, just a mere observation of a good team in a young season.

In all seriousness trap games are very much a real thing - You would have to be blind as a fan to not point out something that obvious.[/quote]

I've already said that trap games happen sometimes. But they don't happen nearly as often as some fans think that they do, which is one reason why the concept has degenerated into a cliche. F'rinstance, you're positing that Indiana's loss to IPFW was because it was a trap game. However, there's two things wrong with your assertion: 1) the loss to the Mastodons took place a full eight days before the Hoosiers played UNC; and 2) there was an intervening game for Indiana between IPFW and UNC, Mississippi Valley State. If Indiana faced a possible trap game, MVSU would have been the trapper, not IPFW, because the MVSU game is the one that preceded the North Carolina contest on the Indiana sked, and it was played only three days before the Hoosiers hosted the Tarheels in Bloomington. But Indiana crushed the Delta Devils by 33 points.

(I feel dirty for having to discuss D1 games here. ;))

NCC's loss to UWP wasn't because it was a trap game. I've already explained why it wasn't one.

Quote from: D3_Commenter on December 01, 2016, 09:32:59 AM
Pioneers did well sticking to a game plan but, NCC lost - UWP did not win

That is simply not true, and you're doing a real disservice to an outstanding UWP effort by saying it.
[/quote]

Sorry Craig, you're just dead wrong on this one, learn to take your lumps and move on just like NCC intends to. The concept of a trap game must be too abstract for your black and white mind. It is okay, we'll all let it slide this time.

I will say though, your buzz words are absolute $$ on that post, almost like you're a commentator or something  :-*
Either you're slangin' crack rock or ya got a wicked jump shot

Allow me to reintroduce myself...

I do it for the Karma - Why else would you do it?

petemcb

#43458
Quote from: lmitzel on December 01, 2016, 08:48:38 AM
Quote from: AppletonRocks on December 01, 2016, 08:31:24 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 30, 2016, 03:50:25 PM
Quote from: lmitzel on November 30, 2016, 06:55:37 AMWe even discussed after the game that neither of us really had any words to describe what the hell had just happened. I settled for "trap game,"

Quote from: D3_Commenter on November 30, 2016, 09:30:59 AMtrap game

I've never quite understood why fans invariably resort to the "trap game" explanation for an unexpected loss that precedes an important game. On the one hand, it may simply be the tendency to fall into groupthink or to rummage through the cliche box when their team suffers that kind of an upset, and in that sense it's probably not worth analyzing too deeply. But on the other hand, I sometimes sense that fans are groping for an excuse rather than an explanation, which is completely understandable; the natural tendency of a fan is to disproportionally attribute the outcome of a game to his own team, whether it's a win or a loss.

There's a couple of problems with it, though. One is that the "trap game" explanation is a pretty severe indictment of your own team. You're not only blaming your team for the loss, you're stating in no uncertain terms that the head coach did not do his job by fully preparing his team for that opponent in a psychological sense as well as a tactical sense. And you're calling out your team's players for being unfocused and undisciplined, which I think is more than most fans would really be willing to do if they stopped and thought a little deeper about the "trap game" cliche.

The other problem is that a basketball game is forty minutes long. If the loss to UWP had come about because it was a trap game, which means that the outcome had been in NCC's hands all along, don't you think that the Cardinals would've realized what was happening at some point and done something to rectify it? It's not as though the Pioneers snuck up on the Cards at the end of the game. North Central didn't score for five and a half minutes pretty early on, from the 15:33 mark to the 9:55 mark of the first half. Don't you think that, if the Cards had gone into the game taking the Pioneers lightly because they were already looking ahead to IWU, that that five and a half minutes in which they didn't dent the scoreboard would've changed their thinking and thus led them to step it up and take control? After all, the score only went from 10-5 NCC to 12-10 UWP during that span.

I watched the game on YouTube last night after I had asked that "what the heck happened?" question here. My take is that the reason why North Central only scored 40 points is that it was about 80% due to UWP playing fantastic defense and 20% due to NCC screwing up. I might even go 85/15. The Pioneers bodied up the Cards down low and didn't give them an inch. They did a phenomenal job of staying on their men on the perimeter off the ball. And they had their hands active at all times, but smartly so -- they didn't get called for a lot of reach-ins, but they poked balls away when the Cards would drive, they got their hands up into shooters' faces, and they wrenched balls out of the hands of Cardinals in tight rebounding situations.

The Cards did force shots, but many of them were late in the shot clock (and I notice that there's already a discussion brewing about NCC's tendencies to take possessions deep into the shot clock as a matter of course). A lot of the shots that they took were on the move without having their feet set or were off-balance shots around the basket, both signs of a team rushing things because it's having trouble creating space for shooters. And when they drove to the basket they were often too strong on their shots, a tell-tale sign of a frustrated team that is forcing things. In other words, the kinds of misses that the Cards suffered last night were indicative to me of a team that was thoroughly taken out of its comfort zone by the defense.

It was like watching Ryan-era UWP rather than current-era UWP, and that's the highest compliment that I can pay to any defense, not just a UW-Platteville defense. You really had to have seen Bo Ryan's Pioneers teams of the '90s to appreciate just how robustly they would bulldog your offense for forty minutes a pop. I only saw his Pioneers teams play two or three times, but those memories stick with me. Every game that they played looked like last night; if you scored 60 points against UW-Platteville in the '90s, you felt as though you had really accomplished something.

Forget the "trap game" stuff, guys. Just tip your caps to UW-Platteville and congratulate the Pioneers on a job really, really well done.

Quote from: lmitzel on November 30, 2016, 06:55:37 AM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 29, 2016, 05:34:49 PM

Which will be higher: Seibring's and Sorenson's combined points and rebounds in the men's game, or the combined number of turnovers in the IWU @ NCC women's game?

I wanted to wait until morning to answer this; partially because typing it out on my phone would have been weird, and partially because I wanted to think about it. It was a toss up. Now, I think I'm leaning total combined turnovers in the women's game unless Angry Alex Sorenson shows up and/or Trevor Seibring has the night of his life. Which, if North Central plays like they did last night, isn't out of the realm of possibility.

[/overreactingtoonebadloss]

Well, I was just joking with that comment, so I hope that I didn't force you to use up too much brainpower in contemplating a response. ;) But you've got the right outlook in that you've self-diagnosed that you're overreacting to one bad loss. The Cardinals will be just fine.

Quote from: GoPerry on November 30, 2016, 11:27:41 AM
As shocked as I am at the outcome last night, I don't have any doubt that it was just one of those games for NCC.  16-55, 29%, from the field?  They likely saw that Platteville lost to consensus-lowly Wheaton last week, playing at home, and simply took the game very lightly and couldn't right the ship.

That's kind of a back-formation way of calling it a "trap game" -- instead of blaming the Cards for looking ahead to IWU, you're blaming them for looking back to UWP vs. lightly-regarded Wheaton -- and I doubt that it's any more valid for the same reason: NCC would've snapped out of it fairly early once it realized that the Pioneers weren't going to be a walkover.

I think that you had it right the first time: it was just one of those games for NCC. That, and UWP probably would've beaten anybody in D3 last night for as well as the Pioneers played on defense.

Again, nobody who roots for North Central has any reason to panic. As badly as the Cards were whipped last night, it's just one game. As I said, the Cardinals will be just fine.

Quote from: GoPerry on November 30, 2016, 11:27:41 AMThey won't make that mistake Saturday and this will likely be a good wakeup to guard against during CCIW play where we all know that no victory is assured.

Certainly a disappointing loss for NCC fans but no panic button necessary.  I think they are still the team to beat in the league this year. 

One thing I've noticed however:  They sure don't get to the free throw line much which is surprising to me with Sorenson/Raridon anchoring things.  Only 7 trips to the line last night, 8 vs BU, 11 vs Alma.

Sorenson never gets to the line much. He averaged fewer than three FTAs per game last season. This season he's had only seven FTAs in four games. (And he's like a smaller, paler Shaquille O'Neal when he does get to the FT line, but that's another topic entirely.) For a big man, he shoots an inordinate number of jump shots. Raridon is more apt to both back in an opponent and to penetrate, which is why he gets to the line more.

But you're right on the mark in noting that NCC isn't shooting many free throws as a team. Last season the Cards were one of the most prolific teams in the league at the charity stripe. This year? Look at the CCIW stats in FTAs per game:


Elmhurst  30.4
Millikin  26.4
Wheaton  24.3
Carthage  23.6
Carroll  23.2
Augustana  22.4
North Park  20.0
Illinois Wesleyan  18.4
North Central  12.5

Even when you keep in mind that Elmhurst and Millikin have inflated FTA numbers due to their respective games against Greenville, the Cardinals are still shockingly below the rest of the league in terms of how often they get to the charity stripe.

If North Central wore the proper color of uniform this would never have happened.

He's right! We need to order cream colored home jerseys! That might have turned the tide!  :D

Wait!  I thought the Tide was Crimson.  This discussion was Cardinal vs Maroon.

Gregory Sager

D3_Commenter,

Simple contradiction rather than a rebuttal; a personal insult; and bad formatting? Now, there's a triple-threat post.  ::)

Seriously, though, here's some friendly advice. You're new to this board. It's been around for almost twenty years now, and it has a certain style to it. While we always have a few laughs here, it's a board that takes the game and this league seriously. If you're going to comment here, be prepared to back up your claims -- especially if you're saying something that can be construed as homerism, since almost everyone who posts here does have a favorite team that he follows. And leave the personal insults for some other board; we try to maintain a respectful tone here. The people who needle each other in this room are people who have been posting here for many years, and because of that familiarity they more or less know how to engage in banter with each other without unduly stepping on toes.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

iwumichigander

Ouch!  Glad I have my steel toed shoes on today!

Gregory Sager

"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

AndOne

I sense that everyone has their own idea of what constitutes a "trap game." I have not seen a hard and fast definition of the term--one that can be applied in all cases. I don't personally care much for trying to explain a poorly played game by calling it a trap game. However, some people seem to like the term, which is fine. However, If you are going to use it, remember that what might be a trap game you one analyst, might not be to another. JMHO.


AndOne

Quote from: Titan Q on November 30, 2016, 08:47:18 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on November 30, 2016, 03:50:25 PM
My take is that the reason why North Centralonly scored 40 points is that it was about 80% due to UWP playing fantastic defense and 20% due to NCC screwing up. I might even go 85/15.

I watched the whole game.  Agree 100% with this.

Overall game analysis -- UWP played well fabulously, NCC played poorly.

As North Central's biggest and most supportive fan on this board, and arguably anywhere else, over the last 10+ years, let me just opine that UWP played fabulously, and saying the Cardinals played "poorly" is being exceedingly generous. The fact is that they played like crap, and you can't polish a turd no matter how hard you try!

The thing is, many very good teams are going to have an occasional very bad game. Sometimes it's due to an outstanding effort by the opponent, sometimes it's due to your own failures, and most often it's some combination of the two.

NCC is a much better team than they showed Tues night. They have a couple exceptional players, and other very, very good ones. They need to dig deep, both physically and mentally, at his time to enable their talents to carry then to the high level at which they are capable of playing, and they need to play together as opposed to each player trying to shoulder the load alone. I sense that they have the ability to do so.

GoPerry

Quote from: AndOne on December 01, 2016, 06:26:58 PM
I sense that everyone has their own idea of what constitutes a "trap game." I have not seen a hard and fast definition of the term--one that can be applied in all cases. I don't personally care much for trying to explain a poorly played game by calling it a trap game. However, some people seem to like the term, which is fine. However, If you are going to use it, remember that what might be a trap game you one analyst, might not be to another. JMHO.

As evident from a prior post of mine, I had never before even heard the term 'trap game.'  And now, I'm rather sorry that I have . . .

iwu70

Perhaps the bigger question is whether this poor performance by NCC shows some longer term weakness in this otherwise supposedly stellar team, picked at the top of the CCIW.  Just asking . . .  I'm sure And one will enlighten.

First game out the gate -- IWU @ NCC this Saturday should be a wonderful way of seeing where the two leading contenders for the CCIW crown stand at this early point in the season.

IWU does have a very interesting and tough run of games now to see how far this team has come in the early going.  From watching the first few games in person at The Shirk, they seem to have gelled pretty well early on.  All the various TITAN players have looked very relaxed and comfortable in their various positions and roles in the early going. 

Sure is strange to see key conference games in December.

IWU70

4samuy

Relaxed and comfortable in roles is huge from a chemistry standpoint. Look forward to that matchup. Also look forward to the cat and mouse matchups in the North Park vs Augustana game at the Carver Center. I'll be real curious how Giovanine uses 6'5 long armed freshman point guard Lucas Simon on the perimeter.  He won't give a ton of scoring but, IMHO may be the best perimeter defender on the team. Does he want to use the freshman in the first CCIW game against the quality NPU squad will be the question.

AndOne

ZERO minutes so far. A FRESHMAN. FIRST CONFERENCE game of the season.
The answer is no.  :)

4samuy

And One, when you say zero minutes are you referring to CCIW minutes or season minutes.  For the season he is averaging 14 min/game.

AndOne

I could say I meant CCIW minutes, but I'd be lying.
Of course, prior to my post, I checked the Augie stats. My eyes must be going too because in quickly looking at the list of players, I just simply missed his name. 😵 No excuses.

If he has been in the rotation regularly, there is no reason to think he won't play. But given it is the first conference game and he is a freshman, I would be surprised if his minutes increase dramatically.