University Athletic Association

Started by admin, August 16, 2005, 05:06:35 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Pat Coleman

Quote from: ADL70 on October 29, 2011, 08:59:51 PM
Spartans were aided by what I regard as a too severe penalty rule.  Freshman Chicago LB picks off a pass and returns it 56 yards to the end zone in the first quarter, but at the five yard line he holds the ball out, to the side, not toward the goal line.  Correctly he was called for unsportsmanlike conduct.  My issue with the rule is that' as of this year, the penalty is assessed from the five yard line, thus negating the touchdown, and Chicago is penalized fifteen yards.  CWRU keeps them out of the endzone and the fourth down FG is blocked.

While I would agree with fifteen yards for true in-your-face taunting, this seems to me to be too severe a penalty for mere exuberance.  The rule seems to me to be almost exclusively applied to displays by players with the ball.  It's been explained to me that the behavior which warrants the flag is "calling attention to oneself."  But I cannot recall a single instance when a defensive player was flagged for celebrating after a big play not involving a change of possession.

While I agree, I feel it should be pointed out that the NCAA phased in the penalty phase of this over the past two seasons. Kids have had plenty of time to know this was coming.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

ExTartanPlayer

With respect to the celebration rule:

Pat, of course you're right that the NCAA has been very public about phasing this rule in (heck, if the kids are Division I football fans, they've probably seen the video of the LSU punter getting a touchdown taken off the board for something that looked like a VERY docile "celebration").

With that said, I share ADL70's viewpoint completely.  I'm all for enforcing sportsmanship, but I believe that the NCAA rule is TOO stringent, and I'm not a bit fan of penalizing the sheer exuberance of an athlete caught up in the excitement of a big play.  Pre-meditated touchdown dances bother me a lot more than kids holding the ball up in excitement a few yards before crossing the goal line.

If you want to penalize the celebration, fine, I guess I can live with that, but I'd prefer the "old" NCAA rule of allowing the play to stand, and then penalizing yardage (either on the PAT or the kickoff).
I was small but made up for it by being slow...

http://athletics.cmu.edu/sports/fball/2011-12/releases/20120629a4jaxa

ExTartanPlayer

With respect to the UAA action this week, in general:

I was a little surprised in the low-scoring action (moreso in the CWRU-Chicago game than in CMU-WashU).  CWRU obviously remains in the driver's seat, but I suspect they'll need a little more from their offense at some point in the next two weeks.

I'm disappointed that CMU lost to WashU, but it looks like the type of game I expected (grind-it-out low scoring affair).
I was small but made up for it by being slow...

http://athletics.cmu.edu/sports/fball/2011-12/releases/20120629a4jaxa

wally_wabash

I may be wrong, but all he has to do is cross the goal line, then if he wants to go bonkers and celebrate and eat 15 yards on the next play he can and the points still count.  I agree that the rule is overkill (like killing an ant with a missle strike overkill), but everybody has to KNOW that you can't celebrate before the play is over. 
"Nothing in the world is more expensive than free."- The Deacon of HBO's The Wire

ExTartanPlayer

Quote from: wally_wabash on October 31, 2011, 01:40:20 PM
I may be wrong, but all he has to do is cross the goal line, then if he wants to go bonkers and celebrate and eat 15 yards on the next play he can and the points still count.  I agree that the rule is overkill (like killing an ant with a missle strike overkill), but everybody has to KNOW that you can't celebrate before the play is over.

You're correct, wally; if the player crosses the goal line, all bets are off, the touchdown will stand.  In fact, that's part of my issue with this rule; I think that celebrations after the player crosses the goal line are more often premeditated and/or purely for the "look at me" factor, while a guy that holds the ball out on his way into the endzone is more likely just caught up in the excitement of the moment.*

*Note: if the player turns around and holds the ball out in the direction of an opposing player, that's a different story, because that is quite clearly meant to taunt the opponent.  I'm referring to a player that continues to look forward at the endzone that eventually raises the ball either in front of him or to the side.

Suppose that you're a starting LB for a midlevel Division III school who presumably never "runs" the ball anymore as a defensive player & therefore you have not scored a touchdown since high school.  You have intercepted a pass in a scoreless ballgame against your bitter conference rival and you are streaking down the sideline with no one nearby.  You're about to score what might be the biggest touchdown of the season for your team; it could propel your team to a conference title.  I can easily imagine myself, in that situation, showing a little exuberance and pumping a fist or something before I reached the endzone - and I was one of the most buttoned-down, do-what-coach-says, everybody-follow-the-rules kinda guys on EVERY team that I played for (from midget football throuh college).

Obviously, there are shades of gray to this whole thing, and I'm not so much arguing the officials calling the rule as written as I am arguing against the rule's existence in the first place.

+k for your thoughts, wally.
I was small but made up for it by being slow...

http://athletics.cmu.edu/sports/fball/2011-12/releases/20120629a4jaxa

ADL70

Quote from: jam40jeff on October 30, 2011, 02:11:19 PM
I know we won the game (great defensive effort) but Monday morning quarterbacks always have to find something to question... :)

Why didn't we take a safety when we were punting out of our own endzone with just a few min left?  (We punted on 3rd down, too, so we could have run the ball one more time then taken the safety to run more time off the clock and possibly get a first down before taking the safety.)  Then we would have had a free kick from 20-25 yards further up and been up by 4 rather than 6, the difference of which is completely inconsequential at that point in the game.

Jeff

The quick kick surprised me, so I didn't think of the potential to take the safety. 

No doubt not kicking to Brizollara played a role in the quick kick decision.  CWRU's KOs were 54, 39, and 31 yards as they kept it away from him.  Clearly on punts the plan was to try to kick out of bounds, which is a penalty on a free kick.  On a free kick from the 20, I believe the spot would have been the CWRU45 (better than the CWRU 36 that the quick kick yielded).
SPARTANS...PREPARE FOR GLORY
HA-WOO, HA-WOO, HA-WOO
Think beyond the possible.
Compete, Win, Respect, Unite

E.115

Quote from: ExTartanPlayer on October 31, 2011, 12:22:13 PM
With respect to the celebration rule:

Pat, of course you're right that the NCAA has been very public about phasing this rule in (heck, if the kids are Division I football fans, they've probably seen the video of the LSU punter getting a touchdown taken off the board for something that looked like a VERY docile "celebration").


For those curious, here's the youtube video of that LSU play:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2ivK1pt1aY

jam40jeff

#2452
Quote from: ExTartanPlayer on October 31, 2011, 12:22:13 PM
With that said, I share ADL70's viewpoint completely.  I'm all for enforcing sportsmanship, but I believe that the NCAA rule is TOO stringent, and I'm not a bit fan of penalizing the sheer exuberance of an athlete caught up in the excitement of a big play.  Pre-meditated touchdown dances bother me a lot more than kids holding the ball up in excitement a few yards before crossing the goal line.

I agree that the penalty is a little too harsh, but what the kid did wasn't just "holding the ball up in excitement a few yards before crossing the goal line".  If he had just done that, I don't think you would have seen a penalty at all.  Instead, he slowed down and pointed the ball back at the QB who was chasing after him, obviously directly taunting an opponent while the play was still going on, which I think is worse than "pre-meditated touchdown dances" (which yes, are also very annoying).

EDIT: I see you mention in a later post that it is different if the player taunts the defender by pointing at him, which is exactly what the kid did.  Even the Chicago fans were yelling at the kid and not the refs after the penalty was called.  Especially with the emphasis the officials will naturally be placing on the new rule, this had to be a golden opportunity for the ref to "try out" the new penalty, and just a bonehead move by a kid who will hopefully learn a little humility out of the whole ordeal.

Case04

Quote from: jam40jeff on November 02, 2011, 11:16:35 AM
Quote from: ExTartanPlayer on October 31, 2011, 12:22:13 PM
With that said, I share ADL70's viewpoint completely.  I'm all for enforcing sportsmanship, but I believe that the NCAA rule is TOO stringent, and I'm not a bit fan of penalizing the sheer exuberance of an athlete caught up in the excitement of a big play.  Pre-meditated touchdown dances bother me a lot more than kids holding the ball up in excitement a few yards before crossing the goal line.

I agree that the penalty is a little too harsh, but what the kid did wasn't just "holding the ball up in excitement a few yards before crossing the goal line".  If he had just done that, I don't think you would have seen a penalty at all.  Instead, he slowed down and pointed the ball back at the QB who was chasing after him, obviously directly taunting an opponent while the play was still going on, which I think is worse than "pre-meditated touchdown dances" (which yes, are also very annoying).

EDIT: I see you mention in a later post that it is different if the player taunts the defender by pointing at him, which is exactly what the kid did.  Even the Chicago fans were yelling at the kid and not the refs after the penalty was called.  Especially with the emphasis the officials will naturally be placing on the new rule, this had to be a golden opportunity for the ref to "try out" the new penalty, and just a bonehead move by a kid who will hopefully learn a little humility out of the whole ordeal.

That is how I saw the play....Chicago LB pointed the ball directly at the QB trying to chase him down....at the 5 yd line....pretty obvious call on him....hard lesson learned

ADL70

I just watched the replay and now see the QB was closer than I recalled.  I never said the call wasn't obvious.  I was yelling for the flag as soon as I saw him stick the ball out.  I still think the punishment is too severe for the crime.

As I am typing this an OU player makes an 81 yard run dives into the endzone from the three yard line, with no defender close.  No call.  Go figure.  To add to my rant, there appear to be no criteria to define what is unsportsmanlike.  The referee went so far as to say:  "There is no foul for unsportmanlike conduct."  I'm sure I've seen the endzone dive flagged.

SPARTANS...PREPARE FOR GLORY
HA-WOO, HA-WOO, HA-WOO
Think beyond the possible.
Compete, Win, Respect, Unite

ADL70

CWRU is a surprising fifth in the North regional rankings.  Highest ranked non-AQ team in the region.  Get a "pass" on the loss to Rochester as it is not in-region.  Wesley is third in the South, so it should get the "B" if it beats Huntingdon.  But if everyone wins out, it looks good for Spartans to get a "C."

Time to root for Huntingdon, North Central, Mt Union, DePauw, John Carroll, Wooster, Denison, and Hanover (I'd add Earlham, but what's the point.).  Huntingdon over Wesley increases chance for B bid.  DePauw over Wabash and Hanover over Franklin increase chances of getting a first round home game.  Carroll, Wooster, and Denison wins help the SOS.

But gotta TCB in the UAA.
SPARTANS...PREPARE FOR GLORY
HA-WOO, HA-WOO, HA-WOO
Think beyond the possible.
Compete, Win, Respect, Unite

ExTartanPlayer

#2456
ADL (and other CWRU fans),

The regional rankings are TERRIFIC news for you.  Even if one of the CCIW teams jumps you, you're still in great shape for a potential C bid.  Huntingdon over Wesley would be the best scenario for you (since that would probably give you the B bid), but I think that's a pretty big stretch.  Definitely want to root for JCU, Wooster, and Denison.

More importantly, you also probably want to root for Wabash to beat Witt, since that probably knocks Wittenberg out of Pool C contention.  If Wittenberg beats Wabash, now Witt takes the NCAC's Pool A bid and you're up against Wabash in Pool C.

*One additional note: with that said...I honestly do not believe that your team is worthy of such a lofty ranking.  I've got a great deal of respect for what the CWRU program has done since 2007, but solely based on this year's results I do not believe that CWRU is worthy of a playoff bid.  The season-opening win over JCU is probably your best win; next-best will be some combination of the UAA teams and Allegheny.  IMHO, that should not offset the Rochester loss, especially when you're stacked up against teams like Wheaton and Illinois Wesleyan, who are 7-1 against much tougher schedules (for a look at how the UAA stacks up vs. the CCIW, consider that Chicago, despite stealing the win thanks to a 93-yard INT return and a late-game punt return, was thoroughly outplayed by Elmhurst; now look at what Wheaton/NCC/IWU did to Elmhurst).
I was small but made up for it by being slow...

http://athletics.cmu.edu/sports/fball/2011-12/releases/20120629a4jaxa

ADL70

XTP

Fundamentally I agree with all you've said.  I've yet to vote for the Spartans in the North Region Fan Poll.  If JCU beats Heidelberg I'll put them in.  Due to the absurd non-region status of the Rochester loss, the wins you mention do offset that loss, at least according to the criteria.

If Huntingdon beats Wesley they present a bit of a conundrum; two losses, but two wins over regionally ranked teams.

First, TCB in UAA.
SPARTANS...PREPARE FOR GLORY
HA-WOO, HA-WOO, HA-WOO
Think beyond the possible.
Compete, Win, Respect, Unite

E.115

Here's the Wash U- Case Western preview out of Cleveland:

http://athletics.case.edu/sports/fball/2011-12/releases/20111101cwapqo

Side note: I heard Case had to take a bus this year.

E.115