MBB: Northwest Conference

Started by The Show, March 06, 2005, 08:40:16 PM

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cawcdad

Thank you Greg. Anyone on the second question?

Mr. Ypsi

Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 17, 2015, 11:11:18 AM
Quote from: cawcdad on May 17, 2015, 10:44:08 AM
An article in yesterday's Modesto Bee (http://www.modbee.com/sports/college/article21108447.html) reports Rolaun Dunham leaving Whitman and transferring to and walking on at the D-I University of Pacific in Stockton. The article states he must sit a year per NCAA transfer rules.
1.) I thought if you are going from a non scholarship school there is no wait period.

No, it's the other way around. The rule is that if you transfer "up" (from D3 to D1 or D2, or from D2 to D1), you have to sit out a year. If you transfer "down" (from D1 to D2 or D3, or from D2 to D3), you are immediately eligible. The rule is, among other things, a deterrent to the idea that student-athletes can view themselves as the collegiate equivalent of minor-leaguers moving up the chain. If you view yourself that way, you have to pay a price for it.

Among the other things (and I suspect the most important reason) is to keep scholarship coaches from 'poaching' athletes who have proven themselves athletically capable at the d3 level.  According to Michigan coach Beilein, Duncan Robinson (who transferred from Williams) could have probably seriously helped UM this past year (when poor 3-point shooting was their most glaring weakness), but had to sit out a year.  So far as I know, UM did not recruit Robinson, but certainly welcomed him!

As for Q2, sorry, cawcdad, but I am totally unfamiliar with the kid.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on May 20, 2015, 06:40:57 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 17, 2015, 11:11:18 AM
Quote from: cawcdad on May 17, 2015, 10:44:08 AM
An article in yesterday's Modesto Bee (http://www.modbee.com/sports/college/article21108447.html) reports Rolaun Dunham leaving Whitman and transferring to and walking on at the D-I University of Pacific in Stockton. The article states he must sit a year per NCAA transfer rules.
1.) I thought if you are going from a non scholarship school there is no wait period.

No, it's the other way around. The rule is that if you transfer "up" (from D3 to D1 or D2, or from D2 to D1), you have to sit out a year. If you transfer "down" (from D1 to D2 or D3, or from D2 to D3), you are immediately eligible. The rule is, among other things, a deterrent to the idea that student-athletes can view themselves as the collegiate equivalent of minor-leaguers moving up the chain. If you view yourself that way, you have to pay a price for it.

Among the other things (and I suspect the most important reason) is to keep scholarship coaches from 'poaching' athletes who have proven themselves athletically capable at the d3 level.

That's actually more the province of the NCAA's anti-tampering rule, Chuck. A coach or university representative cannot initiate contact with a student-athlete who is currently enrolled at another four-year school.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Mr. Ypsi

Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 20, 2015, 07:10:40 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on May 20, 2015, 06:40:57 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 17, 2015, 11:11:18 AM
Quote from: cawcdad on May 17, 2015, 10:44:08 AM
An article in yesterday's Modesto Bee (http://www.modbee.com/sports/college/article21108447.html) reports Rolaun Dunham leaving Whitman and transferring to and walking on at the D-I University of Pacific in Stockton. The article states he must sit a year per NCAA transfer rules.
1.) I thought if you are going from a non scholarship school there is no wait period.

No, it's the other way around. The rule is that if you transfer "up" (from D3 to D1 or D2, or from D2 to D1), you have to sit out a year. If you transfer "down" (from D1 to D2 or D3, or from D2 to D3), you are immediately eligible. The rule is, among other things, a deterrent to the idea that student-athletes can view themselves as the collegiate equivalent of minor-leaguers moving up the chain. If you view yourself that way, you have to pay a price for it.

Among the other things (and I suspect the most important reason) is to keep scholarship coaches from 'poaching' athletes who have proven themselves athletically capable at the d3 level.

That's actually more the province of the NCAA's anti-tampering rule, Chuck. A coach or university representative cannot initiate contact with a student-athlete who is currently enrolled at another four-year school.

OK.  I wasn't sure that the rule applied across divisions.  I seem to recall even Pat talking about 'higher' divisions treating d3 as 'the minors' if it weren't for the sitting out rule.  Since there are so many untraceable ways for 'unofficial' contacts, it is good to know at least that official recruiting is tampering even across divisions.  (For the record, so far as I have ever heard, contact between Duncan Robinson and UM was totally initiated by DR, but whether or not some alum relative or family friend instigated the idea, who can say?)

Pat Coleman

Yes, I agree that making a student-athlete sit out before taking a scholarship is a deterrent for poaching. There are plenty of ways to make back-channel contact that anti-tampering rules would probably not be effective in isolation.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

sac

Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on May 20, 2015, 07:36:45 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 20, 2015, 07:10:40 PM
Quote from: Mr. Ypsi on May 20, 2015, 06:40:57 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 17, 2015, 11:11:18 AM
Quote from: cawcdad on May 17, 2015, 10:44:08 AM
An article in yesterday's Modesto Bee (http://www.modbee.com/sports/college/article21108447.html) reports Rolaun Dunham leaving Whitman and transferring to and walking on at the D-I University of Pacific in Stockton. The article states he must sit a year per NCAA transfer rules.
1.) I thought if you are going from a non scholarship school there is no wait period.

No, it's the other way around. The rule is that if you transfer "up" (from D3 to D1 or D2, or from D2 to D1), you have to sit out a year. If you transfer "down" (from D1 to D2 or D3, or from D2 to D3), you are immediately eligible. The rule is, among other things, a deterrent to the idea that student-athletes can view themselves as the collegiate equivalent of minor-leaguers moving up the chain. If you view yourself that way, you have to pay a price for it.

Among the other things (and I suspect the most important reason) is to keep scholarship coaches from 'poaching' athletes who have proven themselves athletically capable at the d3 level.

That's actually more the province of the NCAA's anti-tampering rule, Chuck. A coach or university representative cannot initiate contact with a student-athlete who is currently enrolled at another four-year school.

OK.  I wasn't sure that the rule applied across divisions.  I seem to recall even Pat talking about 'higher' divisions treating d3 as 'the minors' if it weren't for the sitting out rule.  Since there are so many untraceable ways for 'unofficial' contacts, it is good to know at least that official recruiting is tampering even across divisions.  (For the record, so far as I have ever heard, contact between Duncan Robinson and UM was totally initiated by DR, but whether or not some alum relative or family friend instigated the idea, who can say?)

Mr Y.,  excerpt from an article:

...Robinson, the D-III National Rookie of the Year, made the decision to explore his options after Williams head coach Mike Maker accepted the job at Marist. Robinson was immediately contacted by schools in the ACC, Big 12, Big Ten, Pac-12, Atlantic 10, Ivy League, Patriot League and American East. Some called him just to check in, others called to offer him.

and the full article  http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/07/30/duncan-robinson-of-d-iii-williams-college-considering-transfer-to-michigan-davidson/


.

Pat Coleman

That list of schools contacted him after he made the decision, at least according to this article. Not sure how he announced that decision (getting his release?) but I suppose that means he wasn't subject to tampering.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Gregory Sager

He probably wasn't pre-registered for the 2014-15 fall semester at Williams, which, technically, made him a free agent once the 2013-14 school year ended.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

sac

#6263
A key point not made on this thread, but was made in last summers thread on the NESCAC thread was that Mike Maker was John Beilein's assistant at West Virginia.  Coaching relationships run deep and I'm sure Beilein was very aware of Williams' success in 2014 and of Duncan Robinson.

http://www.umhoops.com/2014/07/29/michigan-interest-dream-come-true-duncan-robinson/


The article mentions Robinson talking to Beilein 'for a month'.  It broke that UM was looking at Robinson at the end of July, Maker left for Marist at the beginning of June. 

madzillagd

To fill in the missing piece for folks, Robinson played for Mike Crotty's Middlesex Magic which is a very well connected/well known program and Duncan remains friends with Coach Crotty so long before anybody spoke with Duncan directly Crotty knew there was interest.  Duncan followed all the proper protocol working with Williams athletics department, talked to his teammates about the potential move, Coach App had a chance to visit him at home to talk it over when he first got hired, etc. 

Pat Coleman

Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 31, 2015, 10:59:19 AM
He probably wasn't pre-registered for the 2014-15 fall semester at Williams, which, technically, made him a free agent once the 2013-14 school year ended.

No, you would still have to get your release, I'm sure. Otherwise lots of students are free agents in this model.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

John Gleich

Quote from: Pat Coleman on June 01, 2015, 01:58:05 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 31, 2015, 10:59:19 AM
He probably wasn't pre-registered for the 2014-15 fall semester at Williams, which, technically, made him a free agent once the 2013-14 school year ended.

No, you would still have to get your release, I'm sure. Otherwise lots of students are free agents in this model.

There was fairly extensive discussion on the WIAC page when Jerrel Harris transferred to St Leo from UWSP to follow further assistant Lance Randall about the "release." Someone looked through the NCAA documents and find that a d3 player has the ability to self release because he's not on scholarship. Much different ballgame than moves from d2 or d1.
UWSP Men's Basketball

National Champions: 2015, 2010, 2005, 2004

NCAA appearances: 2018, '15, '14, '13, '12, '11, '10, '09, '08, '07, '05, '04, '03, '00, 1997

WIAC/WSUC Champs: 2015, '14, '13, '11, '09, '07, '05, '03, '02, '01, '00, 1993, '92, '87, '86, '85, '84, '83, '82, '69, '61, '57, '48, '42, '37, '36, '35, '33, '18

Twitter: @JohnGleich

John Gleich

Quote from: Pat Coleman on June 01, 2015, 01:58:05 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 31, 2015, 10:59:19 AM
He probably wasn't pre-registered for the 2014-15 fall semester at Williams, which, technically, made him a free agent once the 2013-14 school year ended.

No, you would still have to get your release, I'm sure. Otherwise lots of students are free agents in this model.

There was fairly extensive discussion on the WIAC page when Jerrel Harris transferred to St Leo from UWSP to follow further assistant Lance Randall about the "release." Someone looked through the NCAA documents and find that a d3 player has the ability to self release because he's not on scholarship. Much different ballgame than moves from d2 or d1.

...Though, the rules may have changed since 2011 too.
UWSP Men's Basketball

National Champions: 2015, 2010, 2005, 2004

NCAA appearances: 2018, '15, '14, '13, '12, '11, '10, '09, '08, '07, '05, '04, '03, '00, 1997

WIAC/WSUC Champs: 2015, '14, '13, '11, '09, '07, '05, '03, '02, '01, '00, 1993, '92, '87, '86, '85, '84, '83, '82, '69, '61, '57, '48, '42, '37, '36, '35, '33, '18

Twitter: @JohnGleich

Gregory Sager

Quote from: John Gleich on June 01, 2015, 02:26:51 PM
Quote from: Pat Coleman on June 01, 2015, 01:58:05 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 31, 2015, 10:59:19 AM
He probably wasn't pre-registered for the 2014-15 fall semester at Williams, which, technically, made him a free agent once the 2013-14 school year ended.

No, you would still have to get your release, I'm sure. Otherwise lots of students are free agents in this model.

There was fairly extensive discussion on the WIAC page when Jerrel Harris transferred to St Leo from UWSP to follow further assistant Lance Randall about the "release." Someone looked through the NCAA documents and find that a d3 player has the ability to self release because he's not on scholarship. Much different ballgame than moves from d2 or d1.

Yeah, that was the reference I had in mind when I made that statement. I remember somebody looking it up on www.ncaa.org at the time.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

A Buc Forever

Back to NWC basketball:

Blackhawk,

Given WW's talent and the way they played at the end of the year last year, I think this is the year WW surpasses your bar for greatness and goes to the Final Four. The only hurdle will be that once they get to league, no one will really push them. They might get complacent and not be ready for tournament type ball at the end. A weak league is not a good preparation for tournament play.  We need to make NWC basketball like NWC football--3 or 4 teams make it a dog fight. LF usually wins that dogfight and they are ready come tournament time.