Author Topic: MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference  (Read 1983913 times)

Offline Pat Coleman

  • D3sports.com Guru
  • Administrator
  • All-American
  • *****
  • Posts: 35918
  • Karma: +4219/-2137
  • Check the front page or FAQs before you ask.
    • View Profile
    • D3sports.com
Re: MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19260 on: October 06, 2017, 11:45:31 am »
Here's our story with a note on the timing for the Stevens Point investigation.

http://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2017/10/la-crosse-dernbach-hire

Interesting that they are waiting so long. Not sure if "waiting" is the word though.

Agreed. It's definitely not waiting. Sounds like there must be a lot of legal wrangling.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Let's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 6801
  • Karma: +524/-246
  • Broadcaster, Announcer, Analyst, and Fan!
    • View Profile
    • Hoopsville
Re: MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19261 on: October 06, 2017, 01:13:46 pm »
Yeah... there is no "waiting" going on at all. Things have gotten complicated, but I cannot say as to why - to be blunt. The timeline has been dragged out more than many anticipated. Work continues.

However, once the Committee of Infractions gets the investigation results, it will speed things up. The committee has no more than eight weeks to rule on the report. Once the ruling is released (I think publicly, but working to confirm), the appeals process then opens and there is a certain time frame(s) involved there as well. Unfortunately, we wait for the Committee of Infractions to get the results. Things happen so much in secret with these things, even from those in governing positions in Indy, that it is hard to find out where in the process everything sits and when the committee may get (or has gotten) the report.

I can say, based on doing some calculations and looking at the calendar, we are closing in on a point that no matter what happens with the report and punishment(s) decision, Bob Semling, and possibly the team and others, will not be in jeopardy of consequences this season. That is strictly a calculation of time though. At some point, this will cross a line where the amount of time the Committee of Infractions, plus appeals window, plus appeals process will time itself out after the season has concluded. I am not sure just yet as to when that point will be crossed, but it is coming up soon.
Host of Hoopsville and The #WhyD3 Show. Broadcast Director, play-by-play and analyst for D3sports.com. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 10551
  • Karma: +520/-333
    • View Profile
Re: MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19262 on: October 07, 2017, 07:24:53 am »

The UNC cheating scandal still hasn't been resolved and that came to light in 2014.
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

Offline iwumichigander

  • All-Region
  • *****
  • Posts: 1759
  • Karma: +256/-104
    • View Profile
Re: MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19263 on: October 07, 2017, 02:24:21 pm »
I would suggest Pat has it more correct - lawyers are involved. I make the following based on long conversations with senior school and athletic department administrators at Div. I and III levels who have been involved or have direct knowledge of several investigations -

  I think Dave has it mostly correct; but, I would suggest the UWSP case is no longer with the Committee on Infractions (COI). It is now with the separate Infractions Appeals Committee (IAC).

There is a timeline overlap with the two separate committees.  Dave is also correct the processes happen in secret wherein many within the NCAA staff, other committees and involved schools have no direct knowledge of potential rulings.
 
It is my understanding that nothing is  "published"  in the public sector  until the appeals process finalized. The schools and individuals involved usually get the Committee on Infractions reportw and have the opportunity to appeal before any document is made "public".   If appeals are filed the Committee on Enforcements initial "final" report does not see the light of day.

If appeals were filed by both the involved school AND individuals the appeals process is drawn out.  Why? Each not only has to be addressed separately but also collectively.  The IAC can confirm, reverse or modify COI recommendations. However, the Infractions Appeals Committee decision is a final decision.

I would also note the IAC as of today's NCAA website is a member short.  This may or may not be why the process is drawing out.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2017, 08:18:03 pm by iwumichigander »

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 6801
  • Karma: +524/-246
  • Broadcaster, Announcer, Analyst, and Fan!
    • View Profile
    • Hoopsville
Re: MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19264 on: October 08, 2017, 12:08:41 am »

The UNC cheating scandal still hasn't been resolved and that came to light in 2014.

Honestly - Apples and oranges. DI investigation of UNC which has other entities finding out information versus a DIII investigation that as no other entities involved.

I would suggest Pat has it more correct - lawyers are involved. I make the following based on long conversations with senior school and athletic department administrators at Div. I and III levels who have been involved or have direct knowledge of several investigations -

  I think Dave has it mostly correct; but, I would suggest the UWSP case is no longer with the Committee on Infractions (COI). It is now with the separate Infractions Appeals Committee (IAC).

There is a timeline overlap with the two separate committees.  Dave is also correct the processes happen in secret wherein many within the NCAA staff, other committees and involved schools have no direct knowledge of potential rulings.
 
It is my understanding that nothing is  "published"  in the public sector  until the appeals process finalized. The schools and individuals involved usually get the Committee on Infractions reportw and have the opportunity to appeal before any document is made "public".   If appeals are filed the Committee on Enforcements initial "final" report does not see the light of day.

If appeals were filed by both the involved school AND individuals the appeals process is drawn out.  Why? Each not only has to be addressed separately but also collectively.  The IAC can confirm, reverse or modify COI recommendations. However, the Infractions Appeals Committee decision is a final decision.

I would also note the IAC as of today's NCAA website is a member short.  This may or may not be why the process is drawing out.

I can't go into what I know right now for a lot of reasons, but I can tell you this for a fact: it hasn't even gotten to the Committee on Infractions. That is why this finishes our story on Dernback: "D3hoops.com has learned that findings from the NCAA's investigation of Stevens Point may not be released until the majority of the 2017-18 season is complete, depending on any committee review and appeals." This case continues behind the scenes.

Also, NO one in the NCAA staff outside of the investigation side of HQ has any idea about the investigation. When the Thomas More case came out, I asked VP Dan Dutcher how much lead time and how aware of an investigation and it's results is he given. His answer: the same as you. I got an email I think at 9am - might have been as late as 10am - from the NCAA alerting me there was a media call about the TMC investigation. Then 30 minutes before that phone call the investigation was released. Dutcher and his entire office had the same timeline and he and no one else knew anything about what the results where, how the investigation unfolded, etc. except for an investigation had been initiated (when the school was informed) and here were the results. The NCAA keeps the investigative side of things absolutely separate of anything else in the NCAA. It is rather interesting to be honest.

As for when the decision is rendered, punishment handed down, and when the public is informed... it all happens BEFORE it goes to the Infractions Appeals Committee. Here is the rule in Division III Manual:

32.9.3 Infractions Decision to Infractions Appeals Committee.
The Committee on Infractions shall forward a copy of the infractions decision, with names of individuals deleted, to the Infractions Appeals Committee at the time of the public announcement.

That is consistent with the Thomas More case and others. The institutions is usually informed 24 hours in advance and then the case is made public, though no specific time is mentioned in the NCAA Manual outside of once the institution is informed, the public is informed. If Stevens Point decides to appeal, it is after we have all learned of the details and the punishment set forward.

Yes, the appeals process can then involve the school and any individual named - in this case certainly Bob Semling, we shall see if others are named and punished (that will be interesting; I have a few names I will be curious to read about).

Now, I am under the impression that if the school and individuals appeal anything in the COI up to the IAC, that there is a specific timeline involved and just because there are multiple appeals does not change that. Each entity has an appeal and each appeal has a specific amount of time allotted. A notice of intent to appeal must be done in writing and sent to the IAC within 15 calendar days.  I can't find the wording (I will keep looking), but I believe the appeal timeline is 8-12 weeks. I say that because when I was doing math on the possibility of a significant penalty on Semling, coming out in December (easy month to use; year after last year's announcement - no other reason), then Semling would be able to continue coaching through the rest of the season without being forced off the job. I will have to circle back on that. However, that is why I indicated that we are closing in on a timeframe here where Semling and anyone else involved will not affect this basketball season.

I can tell you, again, that this investigation has NOT gotten in the hands of the Committee on Infractions. It has been drawn out for a lot of reasons, far longer than many anticipated, and there doesn't appear to be any indication when it might end. Remember, we were initially given a late-April, early-May timeline... things changed. Then Semling spoke about a late-August, September timeline - I was told immediately that timeline was completely inaccurate. I had hoped from what I pieced together that maybe the case would head to the COI sometime soon, now I am gathering it has been delayed again.

My gut feeling - and this is my gut, not based on anyone telling me anything specific - is that unless something incredibly severe is handed down from the COI, Stevens Point as a school isn't going to appeal. I think they are trying to make right, solve the problems, make solid changes moving forward, and will take their lumps and move on. I do think Semling will appeal even if it is a light hand-slap from the COI. Certainly anyone else will want to appeal. I feel Dernbach will be named, though not sure of punishment. I think Montgomery will be named and probably will face some kind of punishment. Others may also be named. Again, this is just my gut feeling based on what I have been able to put together so far.
Host of Hoopsville and The #WhyD3 Show. Broadcast Director, play-by-play and analyst for D3sports.com. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Offline badgerwarhawk

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 7169
  • Karma: +1283/-406
    • View Profile
Re: MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19265 on: October 08, 2017, 11:51:04 am »
Which do you think will conclude first Dave the Russian probe or this?   ::)
WARHAWKS,WARHAWKS,WARHAWKS

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 6801
  • Karma: +524/-246
  • Broadcaster, Announcer, Analyst, and Fan!
    • View Profile
    • Hoopsville
Re: MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19266 on: October 09, 2017, 11:20:50 am »
Which do you think will conclude first Dave the Russian probe or this?   ::)

Wow... yeah... good question. I am not even sure where to place my money on that one!
Host of Hoopsville and The #WhyD3 Show. Broadcast Director, play-by-play and analyst for D3sports.com. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Offline John Gleich

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 7179
  • Karma: +390/-115
    • View Profile
Re: MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19267 on: October 11, 2017, 09:04:24 pm »
I'd love to know what you've heard Dave but I'll honor your journalistic integrity and not ask.

The thing that keeps coming back in my mind is that I haven't seen any precedent for games/titles to be vacated without players being deemed ineligible.

Doesn't mean that there isn't a precedent, but I'm not aware of one (and that's not an easily Googleable search term).


Good luck to Coach Dernbach and, as well, to Coach Koelbl.
UWSP Men's Basketball

National Champions: 2015, 2010, 2005, 2004

NCAA appearances: 2015, '14, '13, '12, '11, '10, '09, '08, '07, '05, '04, '03, '00, 1997

WIAC/WSUC Champs: 2015, '14, '13, '11, '09, '07, '05, '03, '02, '01, '00, 1993, '92, '87, '86, '85, '84, '83, '82, '69, '61, '57, '48, '42, '37, '36, '35, '33, '18

Twitter: @JohnGleich

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 6801
  • Karma: +524/-246
  • Broadcaster, Announcer, Analyst, and Fan!
    • View Profile
    • Hoopsville
Re: MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19268 on: October 12, 2017, 12:30:52 pm »
I'd love to know what you've heard Dave but I'll honor your journalistic integrity and not ask.

The thing that keeps coming back in my mind is that I haven't seen any precedent for games/titles to be vacated without players being deemed ineligible.

Doesn't mean that there isn't a precedent, but I'm not aware of one (and that's not an easily Googleable search term).


Good luck to Coach Dernbach and, as well, to Coach Koelbl.

Yeah... not going there as you realize. Thanks for understanding that.

As for punishments, I really have no idea what could happen. No one really knows. Ultimately it is up the Committee on Infractions. I think the challenge here is the fact it is a repeat offense of the exact same violation with same individuals in both cases. How the COI feels about that is the deciding factor. I think the title being in the conversation is fair considering I think the COI is going to consider this a major violation by nature that is a repeat offense. Also, the additional practices and such discovered just in the investigative side of things I think is causing problems. Then there is one other factor, this is dragging out and I think at some point membership starts to get frustrated by that simple fact. COI may face pressure to set an example. I think they have been setting examples with Thomas More, Baruch, and others in recent years (I still think Baruch got a slap on the wrist in the grand scheme of things). I am not convinced the national title is going to be taken, I just think it is in the conversation. That said, I do think the punishment will be severe to some degree. I just don't have any sense of truly what the punishment handed down is going to look like. We never do, to be honest.
Host of Hoopsville and The #WhyD3 Show. Broadcast Director, play-by-play and analyst for D3sports.com. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Offline John Gleich

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 7179
  • Karma: +390/-115
    • View Profile
UWSP Men's Basketball

National Champions: 2015, 2010, 2005, 2004

NCAA appearances: 2015, '14, '13, '12, '11, '10, '09, '08, '07, '05, '04, '03, '00, 1997

WIAC/WSUC Champs: 2015, '14, '13, '11, '09, '07, '05, '03, '02, '01, '00, 1993, '92, '87, '86, '85, '84, '83, '82, '69, '61, '57, '48, '42, '37, '36, '35, '33, '18

Twitter: @JohnGleich

Offline Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 10551
  • Karma: +520/-333
    • View Profile
Re: MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19270 on: October 13, 2017, 07:09:45 pm »
Apples and oranges I fully realize... but this just popped up:

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/ncaa-verdict-in-north-carolina-academic-case-no-violations-penalties-for-unc/

It's the opposite, really - UNC got no penalties because all the extra benefits given to athletes were available to non-athletes as well.
Lead Columnist for D3hoops.com
@ryanalanscott just about anywhere

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

  • All-American
  • ******
  • Posts: 6801
  • Karma: +524/-246
  • Broadcaster, Announcer, Analyst, and Fan!
    • View Profile
    • Hoopsville
Re: MBB: Wisconsin Intercollegiate Athletic Conference
« Reply #19271 on: Yesterday at 10:26:37 am »
Also... DI investigations are a different beast to be honest. This one also had a lot of other entities uncovering things that the NCAA then had to chase - the NCAA doesn't, for some reason, fund enough into the investigative side of things. Maybe that is something that should be changed.

Also keep in mind... DI has its own Committee on Infractions. Each division does. Thus, understanding and trying to figure out how one thinks in D1 won't help you figure out the COI in DIII.
Host of Hoopsville and The #WhyD3 Show. Broadcast Director, play-by-play and analyst for D3sports.com. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.