MBB: Northwest Conference

Started by The Show, March 06, 2005, 08:40:16 PM

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Logsfan1

I wish WW well.  Great team, the Belgian guy is tremendous (and what is he doing playing in D3?), and I readily acknowledge WW's superiority in the NWC.  On the other hand, Puget Sound played River Falls on a neutral floor (empty gym at PLU over the holidays) and beat them, score much closer than the game.  The Loggers finished second in a tough conference, and even beat the guys with "March" printed on their warmup jerseys three times.  ;).  I could almost understand if WW had the home court that it made no sense to have them beat UPS again, but given the way things played out I think UPS and NWC got jobbed. 

playball

Quote from: Logsfan1 on February 28, 2012, 02:39:47 AM
I wish WW well.  Great team, the Belgian guy is tremendous (and what is he doing playing in D3?), and I readily acknowledge WW's superiority in the NWC.  On the other hand, Puget Sound played River Falls on a neutral floor (empty gym at PLU over the holidays) and beat them, score much closer than the game.  The Loggers finished second in a tough conference, and even beat the guys with "March" printed on their warmup jerseys three times.  ;).  I could almost understand if WW had the home court that it made no sense to have them beat UPS again, but given the way things played out I think UPS and NWC got jobbed.

Great win for them early and I also agree the NWC gets hosed and does so year in a and year out.  While it counts as a neutral floor, thats kind of a stretch considering.

(509)Rat

UPS just needed to take care of business early on and in conference. If you beat Redlands and win any one of the following: Whitman, PLU, GF, LC and you have a legitimate Pool C case. It could have allowed for a 4 team pod in Spokane. Which I would have been all for, simply for the chance to show the NCAA that Whitworth is a viable hosting site. The city loves their basketball and with Whitworth being a top 4-5 program in terms of average attendance, the NCAA may find they make more of their money back with Whit hosting than other sites that require a flight and a long bus ride or two...

If you are REALLY upset at Whitworth (and UPS if you feel that way  ;) ) getting jobbed. Please email PACIFIC Athletic Director, Ken Schumann. He was the selection committee chair. You never know what goes on behind closed doors, but the d3hoops guys found a way to give Whitworth a bye and not exceed the first round flight limit. You would think Schumann and co. could have done the same. I won't be letting him know how I feel since PC and Dave, made him sound like a buffoon on several occasions last night...they made my point for me.

Keandre

You would think that beating UW River Falls and controlling them the entire game would give UPS a better chance at making the tournament but I think that 3 game slide when they lost at home to WW and then on the road to PLU and GF hurt them pretty bad. And yes, they made Schumann look like a clown. Not too hard to do though.

A Buc Forever

Quote from: Keandre on February 28, 2012, 10:19:45 AM
You would think that beating UW River Falls and controlling them the entire game would give UPS a better chance at making the tournament but I think that 3 game slide when they lost at home to WW and then on the road to PLU and GF hurt them pretty bad. And yes, they made Schumann look like a clown. Not too hard to do though.

I think UW River Falls got in by winning the conference tournament.  Had they not, they would not have made it in.  This is the same situation the NWC had in 2008.   A highly ranked UPS team lost to the Good Guys in the conference and still got into the NCAA tournament.  Had the Good Guys not won the conference tournament, they would not have gotten in. 

Playball, as for the issue of whether a school should go DIII or stay NAIA, it is a tough decision.   If you go DIII you have to have a good enough school that you will attract great students that want to play ball.   That means that the combination of academics and academic scholarships has to be of high enough quality a kid is going to choose your school over some place like LCstate or Central Washington when they are offering money.  That's why the NWC schools can go DIII and still get good enough athletes to play competitive college ball. Those NAIA schools you  you play would be pretty bad without the scholarships.

I don't know if the this is the whole story, but awhile back Seattle Univ went DIII and could not make it.  They went to DII since they felt they could be competitive in that conference if they gave scholarships (which they were).  Now they are DI.   Basically shows that it is hard to maintain high level athletics and academics without scholarships.  Great to see schools like the NWC doing so. 



Gregory Sager

Quote from: A Buc Forever on February 29, 2012, 03:12:07 AM
I think UW River Falls got in by winning the conference tournament. Had they not, they would not have made it in.

Not true. Not true at all. UWRF was ranked third in last week's West Region ranking, which was the last regional ranking released to the public. The week before, UWRF was ranked first in the West Region ranking.

If UWRF had not won the WIAC tourney, it would've gotten one of the earlier Pool C berths.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

A Buc Forever

They are ranked this week so you are right UWRF would have received a pool C bid. Last week they weren't ranked. The wins in their conference tournament sprung them up.   Had UPS been ranked 17, my guess is they would have received a bid also.

Pat Coleman

Buc: The D3hoops.com Top 25 has no bearing on the NCAA Tournament selections.
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Gregory Sager

What Pat said.

The only relevant rankings are the regional rankings released by the NCAA. There are three rankings released to the public, and a fourth ranking made this past weekend as part of the Pool C selection process that was supposed to be released to the public, but wasn't.

In the first West Region ranking, taken three weeks ago, UWRF was #1.

In the second West Region ranking, taken two weeks ago, UWRF was #1.

In the third West Region ranking, taken last week, UWRF was #3.

The Falcons were never in danger of missing the D3 tourney.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell


A Buc Forever

The win over UWRF's should have put UPS in the tournament.  Just looking at the numbers, UPS has as good or better record than UWRF.  However, when you look at who UWRF played, it was a tougher schedule than UPS's. .  It is going to be hard for the NWC to get those Pool C bids unless teams play a very tough non-league schedule like WW does. However, that takes money which gets us back to playbill's point.  If the NWC wants to be a high profile DIII conference, they need to invest more.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: A Buc Forever on March 01, 2012, 03:38:59 PM
The win over UWRF's should have put UPS in the tournament.

None of the various numbers-crunchers who study the Pool C selection process and make their predictions as to which teams will get Pool C berths and which ones won't, including d3boards.com guru Pat Coleman, had Puget Sound listed as being one of the teams that had a realistic shot at getting into the tournament. UPS simply didn't measure up in terms of the criteria that the selection committee uses.

Puget Sound was ranked eighth in the West Region's third ranking. That's far too low to "get to the table" as the nineteen Pool C bids are distributed by the selection committee. Furthermore, the Loggers went 1-1 in the week between the third ranking and Selection Day, which means that, if anything, they probably dropped even lower than eighth in the final, unseen West Region ranking.

Long story short: The Loggers never had a prayer of getting into the tournament, except by winning the NWC's automatic berth.

Quote from: A Buc Forever on March 01, 2012, 03:38:59 PMJust looking at the numbers, UPS has as good or better record than UWRF.  However, when you look at who UWRF played, it was a tougher schedule than UPS's.

UPS did not have as good a record as did UWRF, according to the primary criteria used both by the regional committee that makes the West Region rankings and the national selection committee that actually selects the Pool C at-large teams on Selection Day. The committees use in-region winning percentage as one of those primary criteria. UPS went 15-7 against in-region foes, for an in-region winning percentage of .682. UWRF went 20-5 against in-region opponents, for an in-region winning percentage of .800. Those numbers aren't even close.

Puget Sound did own one of the primary criteria -- head-to-head results -- over UW-River Falls, but, other than that, UWRF had a far superior resume.

Quote from: A Buc Forever on March 01, 2012, 03:38:59 PMIt is going to be hard for the NWC to get those Pool C bids unless teams play a very tough non-league schedule like WW does.

This is true. But, more to the point, NWC teams need to play schedules that are better tailored to the requirements of D3. In other words, they need to play more in-region games. The five games that UPS played against Portland Bible (twice), Evergreen State (twice), and New Hope Christian were useless. Those aren't even D3 schools at all, let alone in-region D3 schools.

The Northwest Conference is a geographical outlier, and thus has difficulty in finding games against other D3 teams without using plane flights to get to them. That is a serious problem, a problem that this league shares with the SCIAC and the ASC. But, as you say, it's a matter of investment. If NWC teams want to better their chances of landing Pool C bids, they'll have to schedule more strategically and put the money into their travel budget to fly places where D3 opponents -- especially West Region D3 opponents -- are available.

It can be done. Of Whitworth's 25 regular-season games, 24 were against D3 opponents, and 23 of those 24 were against West Region opponents. The Pirates managed to pick up games against non-conference West Region foes UW-Whitewater, Chapman, UC-Santa Cruz, Northwestern, Southwestern, Washington (MO), and Cal Lutheran.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Pat Coleman

Feel free to come to Vegas, for example, for the D3hoops.com Classic. We'll make sure you get D-III games and as many regional games as possible. :)
Publisher. Questions? Check our FAQ for D3f, D3h.
Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

WUPHF

Quote from: Gregory Sager on March 01, 2012, 04:15:38 PM
Of Whitworth's 25 regular-season games, 24 were against D3 opponents, and 23 of those 24 were against West Region opponents. The Pirates managed to pick up games against non-conference West Region foes [...] Washington (MO) [...]

I only wish. Not that I need another excuse to travel out to the Evergreen State.

Ralph Turner

#5144
Best wishes for safe travel to Texas, Whitworth fans.

I posted elsewhere that I thought that Whitworth deserved a chance to host at least one game, even if it were a bye/home seeding.

As acknowledgement of geographical contingencies, I think that they got an equitable "second option" in their first round game.  McMurry is a very beatable first round foe for Whitworth. We will not match as favorably with Whitworth as we might have matched up elsewhere.  This is a real #5/#12 game (or even #4/#13 game) for bracketing sake.

(I can always root for a #12 upset!)