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shepherd

#34725
If Christians especially Wheaton students are planning on protesteing, let me state that this is sin even if you are perfectly right biblically or not.
1.  Their is a comand of subjection in the Church and body of Christ.
Rom13;  1Tim3; eph4; Titus1:6-9; 1Cor12;
2.It is for God to create the body of Christ  using the holy spirit and the Word of God (Doctrine agreement) and not a work of man.
3. You will stir up the Body of Christ creating division and waves.
4.  You are comanded to go to your apropriate headship ie leader and biblically discuss, pray about the problems.
5.  If you are not satisfied you are to leave the Church christian organization peacfully.
If you do stir up divisions and strife going against God apointed leadership ie president of school or christian group leader you not only persecute the body of Christ you persecute
Christ himself.  This is so scary and puts the fear of God in me.
WHEN YOU PERSECUTE CHRISTIANS YOU PERSECUTE CHRIST HIMSELF.
Saul who killed Christians and Jesus tells him he is not persecuting the Church or Christians but persecuting Christ himself as if they are the ones whipping him while he is carrying his cross.


Acts 9
4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
5 And he said, "Who are You, Lord?"
Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.[a] It is hard for you to kick against the goads."

In the Parable of the sheep and Goats Jesus says when you did or did not do these things to Christians or the true Church only (Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.) 

MY BRETHREN ARE or = Christians only.  Christians bear Jesus message as
Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6 ) and very Word of God (John 1: 1-5)
and are given the Holy Spirit not of themselves but of God the creator himself.


Matthew 25:31-46 The Parable of the Sheep and Goats
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



smedindy

Quote from: Kovo on September 20, 2017, 10:07:38 PM
Quote from: jknezek on September 20, 2017, 07:59:37 PM
Quote from: wm4 on September 20, 2017, 07:19:24 PM
Noah Spielman's attorney speaking via video posted on the Chicago Tribune's website.  Of note, see how he walks back his initial use of the term "exonerated".  Also of note, he mentions the NCAA having done an investigation as well.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-wheaton-college-hazing-follow-met-20170920-story.html

The important thing about the NCAA, and individual colleges, as we've seen in many recent enforcement cases, is they lack subpoena power and the ability to force witnesses to testify. The DA will not lack that ability and there will be a penalty for being less than truthful during testimony or evasive. Of course, that goes for both sides...

Bit of a wait and see at this time. But one thing is clear to me, and that is one of these institutions, the DA or the college, is going to have more than a little egg on their face if this gets all the way to trial.

It will be more than egg on Mr. Berlin's face if this case falls apart.  You have an elected official (feeding from the public trough at the rate of 171K per year), who has decided to ignore whatever Wheaton College and the NCAA concluded and file serious felony charges against five (out of state) students completely derailing their lives and smearing them forever (some day their obituary will include this case).  While waiting 16 months after the incident (and after the election?) to file charges.  It may the strongest case in the history of the county and justified, but it just seems unusual.

Further, according to this Board, it was done with zero warning to the accused or school but yet the alleged victim's attorney had knowledge of the warrants and commented to the press who also had knowledge of the warrants---go figure.  Perhaps the facts will prove that all of this is justified, time will tell.  But, if I'm a Dupage County voter (which I am not), I want to know what in the heck is going on.  Has this public servant stepped to the microphone yet?  What is the budget for this?  Are the taxpayers spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to prosecute this case?  I don't expect to hear trial strategy, of course, but if Mr. Berlin has spoken, I missed it---so let me know.  He has brought this case on behalf of the people of Illinois, specifically DuPage county so the public has the right to accountability. Not a great shock but the press appears absent on this angle.

It seems to me that he has pushed his political chips "all in".  If the case turns out to be flimsy, I suspect that he will return to private practice after the next election.  Just some food for thought---not that we haven't had enough on this subject.

Frankly, calling a public official "feeding off of the trough" is out of line. He's a public servant,doing the job he was elected to do. We need more people who are willing to work for we the people. We need among the best and brightest to serve in government, not the least and worst. If he was really about the money, he could be a high powered attorney making big coin. He's not - he's a prosecutor in a suburban county.

As many others have stated, it's not unusual to take this long to file charges - evidence takes time to acquire, vet, verify. Witnesses needed to be interviewed, and it takes a while for the consideration.

The DuPage County attorneys have no reason to accept anyone else's conclusions or investigations. Criminal investigations are more detailed and thorough than what the NCAA or what Wheaton have done. Many of us get incensed when the cops in Tallahassee basically trusted Florida State officials to do their investigations on football players (the NYT's stories on that were revealing). We don't need that - we need thorough investigations by the people who are entrusted to do this.

Why does he have to tell Wheaton about the charges? Wheaton isn't a party to this - the victim's attorney was informed by courtesy, which happens in cases like this, I believe, where there's an attorney for the victim. (I suppose). The other party are the players, as individuals. Maybe Wheaton stonewalled the investigation, or made it a little difficult for the DA? Who knows.

The only way this will 'smear' the accused is if they are guilty. If they are found innocent, then I don't think this will impede them.

smedindy

Let me just say that the only reason Wheaton exists is because many people fought against the authority of the Church, resulting in decades of turmoil, strife, inquisitions, religious wars, and peril for all who chose one path or another.

It was less than 200 years before the Reformation that they had the schisms that lead to anti-popes, and papal courts in Avignon and Rome. So there had been turmoil and strife.

If the Reformation never happened - there'd be the Eastern church and the Roman church. I think that the result of questioning, protesting, thinking critically  about faith and church has made Christianity all the better. Maybe not as tolerant in some cases, but better.

So why threaten the Wrath of God on folks who wonder about Wheaton,including alumni and students of Wheaton?

smedindy

Quote from: USee on September 20, 2017, 08:31:26 PM
All, First all my apologies for some of my posts yesterday and last night, particularly those directed at Smeds, I was out of line and too defensive. I have not read any posts (prior to this page) since last night as I put myself on a bit of a "timeout" as I found my ability to be rational and reasonable diminished.

I remain committed to my alma mater and the people there and trust the truth will come out and the light will shine.

For those I have offended I offer my apologies. This has been a great forum over the many years I have participated, both fun and educational. I hope it can return to that kind of spirit soon.

P.S. Q,  If he had caught it in the back of the endzone, it would have counted!

It's OK. I tend to think the worst about colleges and universities as a whole in response to assaults and the like, sexual or not. So my cynicism probably clouded my words. Every college and university has to be diligent about this kind of behavior, be it hazing, assaults, rape, etc. There's talk about 'safe spaces', some of it derogatory. But a college should be a 'safe space' where you don't have to worry about assault or unwanted sexual conduct on a regular basis.

Some part of me thinks that maybe Wheaton will come out of this, and learn lessons, and be a better college for its students, spread the word of God in a positive manner, and embrace any findings. Let's hope. Football is kind of secondary to this, though athletics is a big part of the Wheaton experience, I know.

Now if i could just not get the Sermonette on the boards. Someone is basically marching through the Quad with a megaphone...

Gregory Sager

Quote from: Titan Q on September 20, 2017, 06:47:03 PM
I'll just say this about everything -- I thought Jack Healy's 3rd Q TD should have counted.

Thanks, Bob. I don't know about anybody else, but I got a well-needed chuckle out of that.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

OzJohnnie

Quote from: Go Thunder on September 20, 2017, 11:11:03 PM
If Christians especially Wheaton students are planning on protesteing, let me state that this is sin even if you are perfectly right biblically or not.

I'm trying to figure out if you're serious or a Grand Master troll.
[  

CardinalAlum

Quote from: Go Thunder on September 20, 2017, 11:11:03 PM
If Christians especially Wheaton students are planning on protesteing, let me state that this is sin even if you are perfectly right biblically or not.
1.  Their is a comand of subjection in the Church and body of Christ.
Rom13;  1Tim3; eph4; Titus1:6-9; 1Cor12;
2.It is for God to create the body of Christ  using the holy spirit and the Word of God (Doctrine agreement) and not a work of man.
3. You will stir up the Body of Christ creating division and waves.
4.  You are comanded to go to your apropriate headship ie leader and biblically discuss, pray about the problems.
5.  If you are not satisfied you are to leave the Church christian organization peacfully.
If you do stir up divisions and strife going against God apointed leadership ie president of school or christian group leader you not only persecute the body of Christ you persecute
Christ himself.  This is so scary and puts the fear of God in me.
WHEN YOU PERSECUTE CHRISTIANS YOU PERSECUTE CHRIST HIMSELF.
Saul who killed Christians and Jesus tells him he is not persecuting the Church or Christians but persecuting Christ himself as if they are the ones whipping him while he is carrying his cross.


Acts 9
4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?"
5 And he said, "Who are You, Lord?"
Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.[a] It is hard for you to kick against the goads."

In the Parable of the sheep and Goats Jesus says when you did or did not do these things to Christians or the true Church only (Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.) 

MY BRETHREN ARE or = Christians only.  Christians bear Jesus message as
Jesus is the Truth (John 14:6 ) and very Word of God (John 1: 1-5)
and are given the Holy Spirit not of themselves but of God the creator himself.


Matthew 25:31-46 The Parable of the Sheep and Goats
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Umm, yeah...that's what I was going to say too...  ::). Is there an actual purpose to your posts?
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sac

Always important to remember that institutions, even christian ones, are merely extensions of the flawed human beings that run them.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: smedindy on September 20, 2017, 11:39:18 PM
Let me just say that the only reason Wheaton exists is because many people fought against the authority of the Church, resulting in decades of turmoil, strife, inquisitions, religious wars, and peril for all who chose one path or another.

It was less than 200 years before the Reformation that they had the schisms that lead to anti-popes, and papal courts in Avignon and Rome. So there had been turmoil and strife.

If the Reformation never happened - there'd be the Eastern church and the Roman church. I think that the result of questioning, protesting, thinking critically  about faith and church has made Christianity all the better. Maybe not as tolerant in some cases, but better.

So why threaten the Wrath of God on folks who wonder about Wheaton,including alumni and students of Wheaton?

Come on, Smeds. This is not the Diet of Worms. There's only one guy here, a guy who seems to have gone a little bit off his rocker, who is carrying on about persecution and woe-unto-thee and is dropping proof texts left and right. (He's much too earnest to be a troll; besides, he's a long-timer here who was more or less coherent back when CCIW football was our normal fare for discussion.) Why is it necessary for you to weigh in on the latest trends in biblical scholarship and the last thousand years of church history in order to debate some guy who is standing on the sidewalk with a sign saying "The End Is Near", a guy who isn't even paying attention to anything that you, or I, or anyone else is saying? Speaking as a former seminarian and as a pretty serious student of the Bible and church history I'd love to hash out these topics with you over a beer sometime, but this really isn't the forum for it at all.

I just don't see why it's necessary for anybody to go after Wheaton's belief system. Wheaton's administration? Sure, it's fair game for the way that it has handled this situation (even though we all seem to agree that we're still mostly in the dark as far as the truth of this case is concerned, and that Wheaton's decision-making in terms of punishing the five players may very well eventually be exonerated). But Wheaton's belief system? How is that fair game? How is it relevant to this case? Aside from a dab or two of Christianese, that press release from Wheaton two days ago was the sort of generic tut-tut boilerplate that we'd expect to see from any college or university in a similar situation.

With one singular exception, I've been very impressed by the way that the Wheaton crowd that posts here has handled this situation. (Not that I expected any less of them.) USee did get a bit hot under the collar yesterday, but he's since apologized -- and, to paraphrase AndOne, I think that many of us understood and were sympathetic towards USee even as he lashed out, because those of us who love our alma maters can easily see ourselves reacting similarly under this sort of circumstance if the shoe was on the other foot.

I just don't think that theological or ecclesiastical digressions are useful or helpful here. Please, let's all just leave our friend with the "The End Is Near" sign alone with his lamentations.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

SaintsFAN

Quote from: OzJohnnie on September 21, 2017, 12:13:45 AM
Quote from: Go Thunder on September 20, 2017, 11:11:03 PM
If Christians especially Wheaton students are planning on protesteing, let me state that this is sin even if you are perfectly right biblically or not.

I'm trying to figure out if you're serious or a Grand Master troll.

Protesting is a sin? 
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HCAC Champs: 2000, 2001
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OzJohnnie

Quote from: SaintsFAN on September 21, 2017, 07:14:02 AM
Quote from: OzJohnnie on September 21, 2017, 12:13:45 AM
Quote from: Go Thunder on September 20, 2017, 11:11:03 PM
If Christians especially Wheaton students are planning on protesteing, let me state that this is sin even if you are perfectly right biblically or not.

I'm trying to figure out if you're serious or a Grand Master troll.

Protesting is a sin? 

Huh?
[  

Kovo

Quote from: smedindy on September 20, 2017, 11:33:28 PM
Quote from: Kovo on September 20, 2017, 10:07:38 PM
Quote from: jknezek on September 20, 2017, 07:59:37 PM
Quote from: wm4 on September 20, 2017, 07:19:24 PM
Noah Spielman's attorney speaking via video posted on the Chicago Tribune's website.  Of note, see how he walks back his initial use of the term "exonerated".  Also of note, he mentions the NCAA having done an investigation as well.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-wheaton-college-hazing-follow-met-20170920-story.html

The important thing about the NCAA, and individual colleges, as we've seen in many recent enforcement cases, is they lack subpoena power and the ability to force witnesses to testify. The DA will not lack that ability and there will be a penalty for being less than truthful during testimony or evasive. Of course, that goes for both sides...

Bit of a wait and see at this time. But one thing is clear to me, and that is one of these institutions, the DA or the college, is going to have more than a little egg on their face if this gets all the way to trial.

It will be more than egg on Mr. Berlin's face if this case falls apart.  You have an elected official (feeding from the public trough at the rate of 171K per year), who has decided to ignore whatever Wheaton College and the NCAA concluded and file serious felony charges against five (out of state) students completely derailing their lives and smearing them forever (some day their obituary will include this case).  While waiting 16 months after the incident (and after the election?) to file charges.  It may the strongest case in the history of the county and justified, but it just seems unusual.

Further, according to this Board, it was done with zero warning to the accused or school but yet the alleged victim's attorney had knowledge of the warrants and commented to the press who also had knowledge of the warrants---go figure.  Perhaps the facts will prove that all of this is justified, time will tell.  But, if I'm a Dupage County voter (which I am not), I want to know what in the heck is going on.  Has this public servant stepped to the microphone yet?  What is the budget for this?  Are the taxpayers spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to prosecute this case?  I don't expect to hear trial strategy, of course, but if Mr. Berlin has spoken, I missed it---so let me know.  He has brought this case on behalf of the people of Illinois, specifically DuPage county so the public has the right to accountability. Not a great shock but the press appears absent on this angle.

It seems to me that he has pushed his political chips "all in".  If the case turns out to be flimsy, I suspect that he will return to private practice after the next election.  Just some food for thought---not that we haven't had enough on this subject.

Frankly, calling a public official "feeding off of the trough" is out of line. He's a public servant,doing the job he was elected to do. We need more people who are willing to work for we the people. We need among the best and brightest to serve in government, not the least and worst. If he was really about the money, he could be a high powered attorney making big coin. He's not - he's a prosecutor in a suburban county.

As many others have stated, it's not unusual to take this long to file charges - evidence takes time to acquire, vet, verify. Witnesses needed to be interviewed, and it takes a while for the consideration.

The DuPage County attorneys have no reason to accept anyone else's conclusions or investigations. Criminal investigations are more detailed and thorough than what the NCAA or what Wheaton have done. Many of us get incensed when the cops in Tallahassee basically trusted Florida State officials to do their investigations on football players (the NYT's stories on that were revealing). We don't need that - we need thorough investigations by the people who are entrusted to do this.

Why does he have to tell Wheaton about the charges? Wheaton isn't a party to this - the victim's attorney was informed by courtesy, which happens in cases like this, I believe, where there's an attorney for the victim. (I suppose). The other party are the players, as individuals. Maybe Wheaton stonewalled the investigation, or made it a little difficult for the DA? Who knows.

The only way this will 'smear' the accused is if they are guilty. If they are found innocent, then I don't think this will impede them.

Disagree that it is "out of line" it is just a fact.

No 16 months to file charges is a long time.  Sometimes there are reasons, I don't know what those are in this case.  I have no way of knowing whether Mr. Berlin is a great prosecutor or not.  I suppose we will find out.  I am merely suggesting that if this case is not solid he will likely pay a political price (and he should).  And, yes he does not have to accept anyone else's conclusions----but he better be right.

Really, you think a not guilty verdict will clear these guys?!  Just like it did OJ Simpson or Casey Anthony? (I know we all KNOW they were guilty). Only if the case completely falls apart like Duke Lacrosse will they be cleared but even with the Duke players it follows them forever.

I didn't know that you had insight into the Leon County State Attorneys office.  Do you know how many FSU players they have charged in the past 4 years?  You might want to do a bit of research.

jknezek

Quote from: Kovo on September 21, 2017, 08:24:45 AM
Disagree that it is "out of line" it is just a fact.

No 16 months to file charges is a long time.  Sometimes there are reasons, I don't know what those are in this case.  I have no way of knowing whether Mr. Berlin is a great prosecutor or not.  I suppose we will find out.  I am merely suggesting that if this case is not solid he will likely pay a political price (and he should).  And, yes he does not have to accept anyone else's conclusions----but he better be right.


I really doubt it will be that much blow back. Prosecutors do lose cases. In fact about 1/3rd of the time in felony state courts according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics. https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=qa&iid=403 In this case there has been some national mention of this story, but it's already mostly gone. By the time this case is resolved, the only people still interested will be those with a vested interest. I doubt there are that many Wheaton people to make this the pivot point of a campaign several years away, even if the prosecutor loses.

This is drastically different from the Duke case, where the prosecutor made it a national story, kept it a national story, and it was a national university with a massive sex and race component. That case ticked so many boxes that this case doesn't even come close to comparing.

Losing might cost him something, but I doubt it will have much major blow back if he does lose. It's just not that significant outside of a small community of people.

wm4

Quote from: Kovo on September 20, 2017, 10:07:38 PM

It will be more than egg on Mr. Berlin's face if this case falls apart.  You have an elected official (feeding from the public trough at the rate of 171K per year), who has decided to ignore whatever Wheaton College and the NCAA concluded and file serious felony charges against five (out of state) students completely derailing their lives and smearing them forever (some day their obituary will include this case).  While waiting 16 months after the incident (and after the election?) to file charges.  It may the strongest case in the history of the county and justified, but it just seems unusual.



With all due respect, I think it would be fair to let Mr. Berlin do his job.  He seems quite qualified to do so, having been both appointed and then elected to his position by the people of DuPage county.  Given the size and population of the county, this is not a new process for him and his staff.  They deal with this stuff all the time.  This one makes headlines because of the topic of hazing/sexual assault and the tie in with athletes. 

Here's his bio

https://www.dupageco.org/States_Attorney/1958/

Kovo

Quote from: wm4 on September 21, 2017, 10:25:36 AM
Quote from: Kovo on September 20, 2017, 10:07:38 PM

It will be more than egg on Mr. Berlin's face if this case falls apart.  You have an elected official (feeding from the public trough at the rate of 171K per year), who has decided to ignore whatever Wheaton College and the NCAA concluded and file serious felony charges against five (out of state) students completely derailing their lives and smearing them forever (some day their obituary will include this case).  While waiting 16 months after the incident (and after the election?) to file charges.  It may the strongest case in the history of the county and justified, but it just seems unusual.



With all due respect, I think it would be fair to let Mr. Berlin do his job.  He seems quite qualified to do so, having been both appointed and then elected to his position by the people of DuPage county.  Given the size and population of the county, this is not a new process for him and his staff.  They deal with this stuff all the time.  This one makes headlines because of the topic of hazing/sexual assault and the tie in with athletes. 

Here's his bio

https://www.dupageco.org/States_Attorney/1958/

Absolutely.  I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.  My post was in response to a comment that if this turns out to be a flimsy case he will have "egg on his face"----not my words.  My suggestion is that IF (and I have no insight or information) it is a flimsy case the consequences may be greater than just looking bad. 

Go my to my first post.  I believe the process and system has to do its job.