WBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

Started by wheatonc, March 03, 2005, 06:18:19 PM

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Gregory Sager

It's all a matter of tradeoffs. Teams that shoot a lot of trey attempts can garner a lot more offensive rebounds off of their own missed treys, because they're not disadvantaged out on the floor by boxouts, but at the same time it leaves them more vulnerable to opposition runouts and easy fast-break layups if they accent working hard at grabbing long caroms out on the floor at the expense of perimeter containment.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

iwu70

I think IWU's Rose and Bonnett are pretty good pull-up, mid-ranger offensive players.  Rose likes the trey, but he slashes and drives and has all kinds of moves, shots with both hands, when he's headed inside the arc.  Bonnett is strong to the rim, but also pretty good at the 8-13 ft. range shot.

Agree about Juwan.  He was briliant, amazing, esp. for this size in the area of the paint dwelling giants.

Season within a few weeks now.

'70


AndOne

Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 16, 2018, 12:48:01 PM
It's all a matter of tradeoffs. Teams that shoot a lot of trey attempts can garner a lot more offensive rebounds off of their own missed treys, because they're not disadvantaged out on the floor by boxouts, but at the same time it leaves them more vulnerable to opposition runouts and easy fast-break layups if they accent working hard at grabbing long caroms out on the floor at the expense of perimeter containment.

I'll swear under oath that during the recent years when the NCC women played "the system," fully half of all the points scored by their combined opponents came on basically uncontested layups. Opponents would rebound a missed NCC three and fire a immediate outlet to a teammate who would throw a long pass ahead, usually to someone who had taken off from the weak side and who was now standing alone under the basket.


AndOne

Rog,

What is it you perceive I'm bitter about?
The whole point of both my initial and subsequent posts was to point out that the mid-range shot has basically become a lost art in the sport of basketball. That's all. Period.
What I've said here recently was not meant as either praise or criticism of any specific player or team, and bitterness is not an emotion that played any role in either what I've meant to convey or how I have gone about doing so.  ;)

A large percentage of teams, both male and female, have taken significantly more shots from distance in recent years. Because layups and very short shots are still a big part of most teams arsenals nowadays, three point attempts have largely replaced the mid-range attempts. With the drop in shots from mid-range, there has been a rather natural correlation with a drop in success rate from that distance. If you're not practicing taking 8-13 foot shots, it logically follows that you're not likely to be very proficient in something you don't practice. So, if have a good mid-range game, you have something defenses usually aren't going to be very well prepared to defend.

iwu70

Selective history, RogK, selective history.  LOL

Is your point that these were the games when the now abandoned "system" was at its pinnacle?

Looking forward to this year's TITAN squad, the Mia Smith system.

Should be a fun season.  Guess WC has to be the favorite?  Pre-season CCIW poll out soon, no doubt.

IWU'70


RogK

Yeah, iwu70, pinnacle or somewhere in that vicinity.
As for this coming season, I hope all nine CCIW teams will be good. They all start at 0-0 anyway.

AndOne

Quote from: iwu70 on October 17, 2018, 09:01:26 PM
Selective history, RogK, selective history.  LOL

Is your point that these were the games when the now abandoned "system" was at its pinnacle?

Looking forward to this year's TITAN squad, the Mia Smith system.

Should be a fun season.  Guess WC has to be the favorite?  Pre-season CCIW poll out soon, no doubt.

IWU'70

Nope. The system made it a point to avoid taking mid-range shots. Again, my point was solely to emphasize the fact that the mid-range jumper is a dying art in the sport of basketball. Fewer and fewer shots are being attempted from mid-range, and often times those taking them are not terribly proficient at it.

RogK

So, do you regret that the offense portion of "the system" has apparently gained traction throughout basketball?
I think that basketball is still adjusting to the 3 pointer, so what we see now is not necessarily how it will be in coming years.

iwu70

So depends on the talent you have and how you run your half-court offense.  NCC ran the system, but at times didn't really have all that many really good trey shooters.  In the past, IWU has basically had a couple of key offensive players who could shoot the trey well, and the scheme basically left those shots to these high % shooters. 

IWU's system is really pressure defense that creates offense.  In most games, most circumstances, "Run and Jump" will continue until it doesn't work.  It usually does. 

Again, in my humble and ill-informed opinion, key for IWU this year is in some large part, finding a good replacement for the incredible consistency and reliability of Ehresman at PG.  I think it will happen, but could take some period of adjustment, some of the Titan returnees, experienced players, finding their way in new positions, new roles.

IWU70

RogK

Despite Sydney Shanks being listed as a forward on the IWU roster, I think she's a pretty good dribbler and passer. So she and Munroe may be comfortably relied on, along with a freshman guard or two.

lmitzel

Quote from: RogK on October 16, 2018, 08:07:24 PM
AndOne, maybe these box scores can alleviate your bitterness :
https://static.cciw.org/custompages/CCIW_Links/WBasketball/Stats/1617/17wb0218.htm
or
https://static.cciw.org/custompages/CCIW_Links/WBasketball/Stats/1415/wbb2715.htm
I know iwu70 would be happy to review them. (ha)

Good times. :)

Quote from: iwu70 on October 18, 2018, 11:06:56 AM
So depends on the talent you have and how you run your half-court offense.  NCC ran the system, but at times didn't really have all that many really good trey shooters.

Looking back on it, I don't know how much of that was the lack of "really good trey shooters" versus just sheer volume and law of averages. The percentages speak for themselves by and large, seeing as solely in conference games since I started announcing, NCC has the second-worst three point percentage, so maybe I'm killing my own argument:












School3P%
Augie28.78%
Carroll27.33%
Carthage36.55%
Elmhurst31.32%
IWU31.93%
Millikin30.73%
NCC28.29%
NPU31.07%
Wheaton33.41%

Quote from: AndOne on October 17, 2018, 09:59:57 PM
Quote from: iwu70 on October 17, 2018, 09:01:26 PM
Is your point that these were the games when the now abandoned "system" was at its pinnacle?

Nope. The system made it a point to avoid taking mid-range shots. Again, my point was solely to emphasize the fact that the mid-range jumper is a dying art in the sport of basketball. Fewer and fewer shots are being attempted from mid-range, and often times those taking them are not terribly proficient at it.

I look at it from a sense of efficiency. The three gets you more points than the two, so it makes sense to incorporate it as a significant portion of your offense, especially from the corner where the distance to the basket is shortest. As for twos, layups are in theory a high percentage shot, so they're extremely efficient as well. The midrange in the sense we discuss it, at least in a vacuum, isn't as "efficient," although if you have someone for whom that's their go-to shot that they can hit at, say, a 40-50 percent clip, the efficiency comes into play there too. Maybe the day will come where we start to cycle back to more of a midrange game, but I don't know that it's coming any time soon.
Official D-III Championship BeltTM Cartographer
2022 CCIW Football Pick 'Em Co-Champion
#THREEEEEEEEE

Gregory Sager

Quote from: lmitzel on October 18, 2018, 02:11:20 PM
Quote from: RogK on October 16, 2018, 08:07:24 PM
AndOne, maybe these box scores can alleviate your bitterness :
https://static.cciw.org/custompages/CCIW_Links/WBasketball/Stats/1617/17wb0218.htm
or
https://static.cciw.org/custompages/CCIW_Links/WBasketball/Stats/1415/wbb2715.htm
I know iwu70 would be happy to review them. (ha)

Good times. :)

Quote from: iwu70 on October 18, 2018, 11:06:56 AM
So depends on the talent you have and how you run your half-court offense.  NCC ran the system, but at times didn't really have all that many really good trey shooters.

Looking back on it, I don't know how much of that was the lack of "really good trey shooters" versus just sheer volume and law of averages. The percentages speak for themselves by and large, seeing as solely in conference games since I started announcing, NCC has the second-worst three point percentage, so maybe I'm killing my own argument:












School3P%
Augie28.78%
Carroll27.33%
Carthage36.55%
Elmhurst31.32%
IWU31.93%
Millikin30.73%
NCC28.29%
NPU31.07%
Wheaton33.41%

I think that one of the things that held back NCC's trey percentage was the speed at which the Cardinals played. Innumerable times they chucked up the first open shot available without getting their feet set, and I (and, I think, most observers who know something about the Arseneault System) wrote that off as an artifact of the System's goals-based methodology (x number of trey attempts per game, x number of possessions per game, etc.) rather than as poor technique or inadequate coaching by Michelle Roof and her staff. I didn't necessarily assume that a Cardinals shooter who went 1-8 from beyond the arc wasn't a good shooter. I wrote off her clankitude as an outcome caused by the fact that she was a rushed shooter, and that rushing her shot wasn't entirely her choice.

Quote from: lmitzel on October 18, 2018, 02:11:20 PM
Quote from: AndOne on October 17, 2018, 09:59:57 PM
Quote from: iwu70 on October 17, 2018, 09:01:26 PM
Is your point that these were the games when the now abandoned "system" was at its pinnacle?

Nope. The system made it a point to avoid taking mid-range shots. Again, my point was solely to emphasize the fact that the mid-range jumper is a dying art in the sport of basketball. Fewer and fewer shots are being attempted from mid-range, and often times those taking them are not terribly proficient at it.

I look at it from a sense of efficiency. The three gets you more points than the two, so it makes sense to incorporate it as a significant portion of your offense, especially from the corner where the distance to the basket is shortest. As for twos, layups are in theory a high percentage shot, so they're extremely efficient as well. The midrange in the sense we discuss it, at least in a vacuum, isn't as "efficient," although if you have someone for whom that's their go-to shot that they can hit at, say, a 40-50 percent clip, the efficiency comes into play there too. Maybe the day will come where we start to cycle back to more of a midrange game, but I don't know that it's coming any time soon.

It won't come back until players start practicing that shot again at the frequency with which they practice treys and layups (and, alas, dunks if you're talking about the men's game). And, right now, there's little to no incentive from coaches to make players practice it.

Thanks, Lucas, for keeping this conversation going. Normally, I'd be loath to talk about a playing style that is now obsolete in terms of CCIW practitioners, but anything is better than having to read yet another iteration of the interminable conversation between iwu70 and Rog regarding Illinois Wesleyan. I'm all for any recognition that this is a nine-team league rather than a one-team league, ever if we're talking about an aspect that no longer exists regarding one of those eight other teams. ;)
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

AndOne

Quote from: RogK on October 17, 2018, 10:32:41 PM
So, do you regret that the offense portion of "the system" has apparently gained traction throughout basketball?
I think that basketball is still adjusting to the 3 pointer[\b], so what we see now is not necessarily how it will be in coming years.

Perhaps womens basketball is still adjusting to the 3 pointer, particularly at the D3 level. On the women's side, I've really only had more than a smidgen of experience with just one team so my perspective isn't the best. However, I sense the adjustment is well underway.
On the guys side, I think the adjustment is pretty well complete. The 3 pointer has revolutionized the men's game. Multitudes of players have fallen in love with the 3 point shot. Even at the D3 level, you often see teams with three guys with proficiency from downtown. The best teams often have an upper echelon 3 point shooter and a couple more that are way above average. Heck, even the better high school teams usually have a very good distance shooter and another pretty good one. Ever see kids practicing 10 foot shots? Ha, they're throwing them up from closer to half court than to the free throw line! Going back to our mid-range discussion, this is the major factor in the demise of the mid-range shot.

AndOne

Quote from: Gregory Sager on October 18, 2018, 02:27:25 PM
Quote from: lmitzel on October 18, 2018, 02:11:20 PM
Quote from: RogK on October 16, 2018, 08:07:24 PM
AndOne, maybe these box scores can alleviate your bitterness :
https://static.cciw.org/custompages/CCIW_Links/WBasketball/Stats/1617/17wb0218.htm
or
https://static.cciw.org/custompages/CCIW_Links/WBasketball/Stats/1415/wbb2715.htm
I know iwu70 would be happy to review them. (ha)

Good times. :)

Quote from: iwu70 on October 18, 2018, 11:06:56 AM
So depends on the talent you have and how you run your half-court offense.  NCC ran the system, but at times didn't really have all that many really good trey shooters.

Looking back on it, I don't know how much of that was the lack of "really good trey shooters" versus just sheer volume and law of averages. The percentages speak for themselves by and large, seeing as solely in conference games since I started announcing, NCC has the second-worst three point percentage, so maybe I'm killing my own argument:












School3P%
Augie28.78%
Carroll27.33%
Carthage36.55%
Elmhurst31.32%
IWU31.93%
Millikin30.73%
NCC28.29%
NPU31.07%
Wheaton33.41%

I think that one of the things that held back NCC's trey percentage was the speed at which the Cardinals played. Innumerable times they chucked up the first open shot available without getting their feet set, and I (and, I think, most observers who know something about the Arseneault System) wrote that off as an artifact of the System's goals-based methodology (x number of trey attempts per game, x number of possessions per game, etc.) rather than as poor technique or inadequate coaching by Michelle Roof and her staff. I didn't necessarily assume that a Cardinals shooter who went 1-8 from beyond the arc wasn't a good shooter. I wrote off her clankitude as an outcome caused by the fact that she was a rushed shooter, and that rushing her shot wasn't entirely her choice.

Quote from: lmitzel on October 18, 2018, 02:11:20 PM
Quote from: AndOne on October 17, 2018, 09:59:57 PM
Quote from: iwu70 on October 17, 2018, 09:01:26 PM
Is your point that these were the games when the now abandoned "system" was at its pinnacle?

Nope. The system made it a point to avoid taking mid-range shots. Again, my point was solely to emphasize the fact that the mid-range jumper is a dying art in the sport of basketball. Fewer and fewer shots are being attempted from mid-range, and often times those taking them are not terribly proficient at it.

I look at it from a sense of efficiency. The three gets you more points than the two, so it makes sense to incorporate it as a significant portion of your offense, especially from the corner where the distance to the basket is shortest. As for twos, layups are in theory a high percentage shot, so they're extremely efficient as well. The midrange in the sense we discuss it, at least in a vacuum, isn't as "efficient," although if you have someone for whom that's their go-to shot that they can hit at, say, a 40-50 percent clip, the efficiency comes into play there too. Maybe the day will come where we start to cycle back to more of a midrange game, but I don't know that it's coming any time soon.

It won't come back until players start practicing that shot again at the frequency with which they practice treys and layups (and, alas, dunks if you're talking about the men's game). And, right now, there's little to no incentive from coaches to make players practice it.

Thanks, Lucas, for keeping this conversation going. Normally, I'd be loath to talk about a playing style that is now obsolete in terms of CCIW practitioners, but anything is better than having to read yet another iteration of the interminable conversation between iwu70 and Rog regarding Illinois Wesleyan. I'm all for any recognition that this is a nine-team league rather than a one-team league, ever if we're talking about an aspect that no longer exists regarding one of those eight other teams. ;)

With regard to the above, MHO is that both '70 and Sager make good points.
1. In only one of the "system" years did NCC really have several good 3 point shooters.
2. Often times, if you looked away for more than 2-3 seconds after the Cardinals got the ball over half court, you would miss a 3 point attempt. Usually only one pass and then what amounted to a quick throw at the basket as opposed to a good shot. No receiving the pass in good shooting position. No squaring up to the basket. No stepping into the shot. Too often only what amounted to a wild heave. 🙏🏽 👎