World Cup and European leagues

Started by Jim Matson, June 11, 2006, 12:00:45 AM

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jknezek

Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on October 11, 2017, 04:17:52 PM
Out of 27 possible combinations of results of the US, Honduras, Panama either win, draw, or lose... 22 combinations would have had the US finish 3rd, 4 would have had the US 4th, and just 1 would have the US in 5th

Interestingly the biggest populations have failed to qualify... India, China, USA, Indonesia, Pakistan account for 46% of the worlds population with close to 3.5 billion people yet we have Iceland with it's less than 350,000 people qualified.

In none of those countries, barring maybe China, is it the pre-eminent sport in the nation. That will always be an important distinction. For most qualifying nations, no sport is more popular for both participation and viewing, than soccer. None of these countries, except the U.S. interestingly where soccer was probably the second most popular sport in the country until the 1920s, have a long history with soccer either.

I coach my twin 6 year old boys now. We play many teams with fathers who have never played and don't understand the game. They can't teach kids so much as the fundamentals of how to strike the ball correctly, let alone start them on proper dribbling technique and off the ball movement. My own father coached me, and I distinctly remember him watching VHS tapes to understand the concepts of a game he had hardly heard of growing up. My intermediate school and h.s. j.v. coaches had no idea how to play the game and relied on the parents that had coached to make substitutions and tactical adjustments during the games.

We have neither the athletes nor the technical background, nor the coaching expertise, nor the development and professional opportunities, of any of the elite or even second tier nations. We are better off than we were in 1986, but really we are at least a generation, probably two or three, away from having the societal infrastructure to field a truly elite team.

I fear with this setback that may be pushed off even longer.

FCGrizzliesGrad

I guess the point there is that if a small country like Iceland can manage to put together a quality team... how can the US with 1000x the population and lots more money fail? Obviously India and Pakistan are more interested in cricket, and Indonesia got suspended... but the US should have plenty of talented players just from the sheer number of kids who play. There is no excuse that out of millions who play you can't manage to develop a couple dozen.

Also, how is there no goal line technology or extra ref at this level of competition? Panama never scored but were given the goal to tie Costa Rica early in the 2nd half. Now we know how Ireland felt 8 years ago.
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Mr.Right

I think your probability statistics are an excellent point to make just I will take it in a different direction. Somewhere I read that the US had 93% chance to qualify before the game. IMO overrated players like Bradley, Altidore and others went into this game with inflated confidence and assumed they could at least get a draw by merely showing up because T&T had "nothing"to play for and well they were just that much better. IMO the US played like they knew they had already qualified and showed it on the field.

jknezek

Quote from: FCGrizzliesGrad on October 11, 2017, 07:14:50 PM
I guess the point there is that if a small country like Iceland can manage to put together a quality team... how can the US with 1000x the population and lots more money fail? Obviously India and Pakistan are more interested in cricket, and Indonesia got suspended... but the US should have plenty of talented players just from the sheer number of kids who play. There is no excuse that out of millions who play you can't manage to develop a couple dozen.

Also, how is there no goal line technology or extra ref at this level of competition? Panama never scored but were given the goal to tie Costa Rica early in the 2nd half. Now we know how Ireland felt 8 years ago.

I absolutely agree, to a point. We can develop athletes, sure. But soccer is much more tactical than most sports. Football has 24 players, 11 a side and 2 kickers, but they all have very specific and independent jobs. Basketball is played on a tiny court with unlimited subs. Hockey is fast as all get out, but a sprint not a 90 minute marathon. Baseball is... well, a skill except for the pitcher and maybe the center fielder. Same with golf. As a team sport, there is nothing like soccer. And without the tactics becoming second nature through, years of drilling and awareness of how it should be played, something we do so poorly in this country since we don't have enough people that know them, we have naive athletes.

Very rarely does the American team lose the game physically. They lose the game because the other team can break down their defense or the American offense isn't tactical or technical enough to break down the opponents defense. Add to that soccer is also more random in outcomes because it is so low scoring, so the margin for error is much smaller than any other team sport, and you get a situation where just developing athletes simply isn't enough. You can't brute strength soccer the way you can an offensive line for a running game in football. Or the guys in the paint in basketball. You can't just out run someone the way you can outskate an opponent in hockey because you don't have the subs.

Until we have the coaches and the technical savvy and the tactical knowledge from all ages, plus development that puts h.s. and college programs to shame, we will never be able to compete at an elite level, despite how well our athletes have been developed.

And yes, the women's game, at this stage is different. It is nowhere near as technical and tactical because globally the women's game is young and suffers, on a global scale, from what the U.S. men suffer from at home. And the U.S. women, thanks to Title IX and college, as poor a substitute as college is, are vastly ahead of the nothing that most of the rest of the world had for women's development until very recently.

madzillagd

I believe it was Robbie Earl that made the point, how insanely soft are you mentally if you get piggybacked  across a puddle of water because you don't want to get your boots wet during practice?  I think Mr Right nailed it. These guys were overconfident and played with no urgency. I'm one that doesn't see the need to keep anyone 30 and over around for the next cycle. These guys didn't earn a second chance. Rather replace with youth and/or less talented players that play with heart.

Domino1195

This article was published last summer.  If the US is looking for a "plan" on how to develop youth and how to create a national identity they need to look no further. U10 coaches have to have a UEFA B license.  U10. B license.

Quote
"The result is a spread of expertise right down to the lowest level. "Here you need a Uefa B licence to coach from under-10 level up and half of the Uefa B licence to coach under-eights," Dagur Sveinn Dagbjartsson of the Icelandic FA says. This isn't simply box-ticking. The Uefa B is one step off the level needed to coach a professional team in England. Yelling dads it ain't."

Unfortunately, the American Way is to throw a pile of money at a problem and then drum your fingers, impatiently waiting a whole minute for results. 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jun/08/iceland-stunning-rise-euro-2016-gylfi-sigurdsson-lars-lagerback

jknezek

Quote from: Domino1195 on October 12, 2017, 11:56:26 AM
This article was published last summer.  If the US is looking for a "plan" on how to develop youth and how to create a national identity they need to look no further. U10 coaches have to have a UEFA B license.  U10. B license.

Quote
"The result is a spread of expertise right down to the lowest level. "Here you need a Uefa B licence to coach from under-10 level up and half of the Uefa B licence to coach under-eights," Dagur Sveinn Dagbjartsson of the Icelandic FA says. This isn't simply box-ticking. The Uefa B is one step off the level needed to coach a professional team in England. Yelling dads it ain't."

Unfortunately, the American Way is to throw a pile of money at a problem and then drum your fingers, impatiently waiting a whole minute for results. 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jun/08/iceland-stunning-rise-euro-2016-gylfi-sigurdsson-lars-lagerback

Absolutely. But it's not going to happen. Primarily because the love isn't here. When I was 10 I was playing soccer in the fall, basketball in the winter, indoor soccer in the winter, baseball in the spring. I guarantee you my dad wasn't getting a B license to coach me in soccer not knowing which sport I was going to pick. And frankly, he probably couldn't have anyway since he learned the game as I did. And it's the same thing now. More dads have played soccer, but many still haven't. And with so many popular sports in America, that's not going to change. It isn't like England where dads pretty much played soccer or rugby. Here they might have played 5 or 6 different sports. And we can't fix that because it still happens today. Too many options.

And, frankly, I don't want to make my kids play 1 sport. If they enjoy many, they can play many.

Ejay

Quote from: jknezek on October 12, 2017, 02:33:50 PM
Quote from: Domino1195 on October 12, 2017, 11:56:26 AM
This article was published last summer.  If the US is looking for a "plan" on how to develop youth and how to create a national identity they need to look no further. U10 coaches have to have a UEFA B license.  U10. B license.

Quote
"The result is a spread of expertise right down to the lowest level. "Here you need a Uefa B licence to coach from under-10 level up and half of the Uefa B licence to coach under-eights," Dagur Sveinn Dagbjartsson of the Icelandic FA says. This isn't simply box-ticking. The Uefa B is one step off the level needed to coach a professional team in England. Yelling dads it ain't."

Unfortunately, the American Way is to throw a pile of money at a problem and then drum your fingers, impatiently waiting a whole minute for results. 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jun/08/iceland-stunning-rise-euro-2016-gylfi-sigurdsson-lars-lagerback

Absolutely. But it's not going to happen. Primarily because the love isn't here. When I was 10 I was playing soccer in the fall, basketball in the winter, indoor soccer in the winter, baseball in the spring. I guarantee you my dad wasn't getting a B license to coach me in soccer not knowing which sport I was going to pick. And frankly, he probably couldn't have anyway since he learned the game as I did. And it's the same thing now. More dads have played soccer, but many still haven't. And with so many popular sports in America, that's not going to change. It isn't like England where dads pretty much played soccer or rugby. Here they might have played 5 or 6 different sports. And we can't fix that because it still happens today. Too many options.

And, frankly, I don't want to make my kids play 1 sport. If they enjoy many, they can play many.

The answer is not better "education". The pay-to-play model really picked up steam in the early 90s when the "professional" English trainers started coming over to train the US youth. Props to them for seeing a business opportunity and running with it.  However, just because you have an accent and a B license (or better) absolutely does not guarantee that you will be an effective coach/trainer. 

Mr.Right

Quote from: EB2319 on October 12, 2017, 02:52:08 PM
Quote from: jknezek on October 12, 2017, 02:33:50 PM
Quote from: Domino1195 on October 12, 2017, 11:56:26 AM
This article was published last summer.  If the US is looking for a "plan" on how to develop youth and how to create a national identity they need to look no further. U10 coaches have to have a UEFA B license.  U10. B license.

Quote
"The result is a spread of expertise right down to the lowest level. "Here you need a Uefa B licence to coach from under-10 level up and half of the Uefa B licence to coach under-eights," Dagur Sveinn Dagbjartsson of the Icelandic FA says. This isn't simply box-ticking. The Uefa B is one step off the level needed to coach a professional team in England. Yelling dads it ain't."

Unfortunately, the American Way is to throw a pile of money at a problem and then drum your fingers, impatiently waiting a whole minute for results. 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jun/08/iceland-stunning-rise-euro-2016-gylfi-sigurdsson-lars-lagerback

Absolutely. But it's not going to happen. Primarily because the love isn't here. When I was 10 I was playing soccer in the fall, basketball in the winter, indoor soccer in the winter, baseball in the spring. I guarantee you my dad wasn't getting a B license to coach me in soccer not knowing which sport I was going to pick. And frankly, he probably couldn't have anyway since he learned the game as I did. And it's the same thing now. More dads have played soccer, but many still haven't. And with so many popular sports in America, that's not going to change. It isn't like England where dads pretty much played soccer or rugby. Here they might have played 5 or 6 different sports. And we can't fix that because it still happens today. Too many options.

And, frankly, I don't want to make my kids play 1 sport. If they enjoy many, they can play many.

The answer is not better "education". The pay-to-play model really picked up steam in the early 90s when the "professional" English trainers started coming over to train the US youth. Props to them for seeing a business opportunity and running with it.  However, just because you have an accent and a B license (or better) absolutely does not guarantee that you will be an effective coach/trainer.



EXACTLY......+k for next 3 days.....Also, you are correct in the 90's they showed up in droves with a suitcase and accent and were gobbling up jobs all over the place. What have the English accomplished since 1966?

Side Note:    There is a particular club in Massachusetts, and I am sure all over the country, that will only hire Brits and no Americans...They send emails to all college coaches asking if they have any British players on their roster that would be interested in starting a career in coaching. When one coach replied that he did not but had an excellent candidate from the state near where they were located and would be a welcome addition to their staff he was told that they were not interested and then off the record was told they were directed to only hire the British from the top of the club...Ridiculous and an off hand account but I am sure this has been happening since the 90's. I could somewhat understand this as long as it would work like this for Americans trying to work or god forbid play in England...It doesn't...They make you jump thru hoops just to get a chance and usually it does not work out.

jknezek

In news that's hardly news... Bruce Arena resigned. Not that I think he was staying on for another cycle, but even Gulati wasn't going to keep him after this debacle. So resigned... asked to leave... fired... all semantics. It will be interesting to see who is chosen next.

Goldenrj

Quote from: 1970s NESCAC Player on October 10, 2017, 01:39:13 PM
Quote from: jknezek on October 10, 2017, 09:57:56 AM
It really was an end to end game. Could have easily have been 7 or 8 to 2 or 3 as 4-0. The Panamanian coach really screwed up. He set his team up wrong, tried to fix it in the 20th, but just couldn't. I don't know if he thought we would crumble if they could get out to a fast start or what, but it backfired horribly. And it's a shame, because that is a good team for Panama and I hope they pull the 4th spot. I like them much better than Honduras, who has always been more brutal and direct and very little fun to watch with almost no hope of earning points at a World Cup.

Anyway, the pitch at TnT looks awful. Really hoping we can get a quick start and then run out the clock for the win, because I think by the end of 90 minutes that's just going to be a mud hole where kick and run is the only option.

+1k to Goldenrj for the sarcasm alert!

I agree jk that, with that pitch in T&T, it could be disastrous for the U.S. to fall behind.

Thanks 70s guy!

Ron Boerger

At least the U17 team is having fun, 5-0 over Paraguay in the Round of 16 at the FIFA U17 WC ...

jknezek

Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 16, 2017, 04:57:27 PM
At least the U17 team is having fun, 5-0 over Paraguay in the Round of 16 at the FIFA U17 WC ...

Saw that. I was nervous after they choked their last group match. Today went better though a very nervy beginning. They are looking very strong defensively except the one game when it looked like a mess. Unfortunately the very good defensive mid will miss the next match for yellow card accumulation.  That will complicate things. Kind of hope they get England not Japan. England will play very direct, Japan is more a tricky skills team. I think we will match up better against England.

just4kix

Quote from: jknezek on October 16, 2017, 06:03:16 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 16, 2017, 04:57:27 PM
At least the U17 team is having fun, 5-0 over Paraguay in the Round of 16 at the FIFA U17 WC ...

Saw that. I was nervous after they choked their last group match. Today went better though a very nervy beginning. They are looking very strong defensively except the one game when it looked like a mess. Unfortunately the very good defensive mid will miss the next match for yellow card accumulation.  That will complicate things. Kind of hope they get England not Japan. England will play very direct, Japan is more a tricky skills team. I think we will match up better against England.

Wouldn't it be better for these kids to get the experience competing against a "tricky skills" team?

jknezek

Quote from: just4kix on October 17, 2017, 09:46:02 AM
Quote from: jknezek on October 16, 2017, 06:03:16 PM
Quote from: Ron Boerger on October 16, 2017, 04:57:27 PM
At least the U17 team is having fun, 5-0 over Paraguay in the Round of 16 at the FIFA U17 WC ...

Saw that. I was nervous after they choked their last group match. Today went better though a very nervy beginning. They are looking very strong defensively except the one game when it looked like a mess. Unfortunately the very good defensive mid will miss the next match for yellow card accumulation.  That will complicate things. Kind of hope they get England not Japan. England will play very direct, Japan is more a tricky skills team. I think we will match up better against England.

Wouldn't it be better for these kids to get the experience competing against a "tricky skills" team?

I'm all for getting experience in friendlies and lesser tournaments. When it comes to a World Cup, any age World Cup, I want to win games. The pinnacle of competition isn't about primarily learning, it's the one time it really is all about winning.