FB: Presidents' Athletic Conference

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Ralph Turner

Quote from: Bob.Gregg on June 01, 2017, 12:15:32 PM
TMC (15 M) has the smallest endowment of all the schools in the PAC.

Geneva 28 M
Chatham 53 M
Waynesburg 55 M
Thiel 68 M
St. Vincent 71 M
Bethany 77 M
W&J 104 M
Grove City 111 M

Of course, those (combined) pale in comparison to the Football Only associates:
CWRU 1.66 B
CMU 1.71 B
W&J only $104M!  That surprises me!  I would have expected at least $150M and closer to $250, considering the age of the school, its prominence in higher education in the early 20th century and social status of the alums.

Bob.Gregg

#4126
Ralph, here's a little more recent info on W&J's endowment (closer to your thoughts):

As of the April 2016 update on the College's "An Uncommon Bond" campaign, W&J's endowment has grown from $95.3 million to $133.8 million.

During this same time frame, numerous capital projects have also been started--some finished, some in progress--including the Swanson Tennis Center, the Ross Family Recreation Center.  The U. Grant Miller Library renovation/reconfiguration has just begun and Henry Memorial Center will be shortly.

Been wrong before.  Will be wrong again.

WashJeff68

#4127
Ralph,

W&J just completing a capital campaign that has raised over $100,000,000 some of which went to endowment. W&J also recently completed a search for a replacement for President Tori Haring-Smith who will retire at the end of July after a very successful 12 years at the helm. According to the prospectus provided to candidates the current endowment is $137,000,000. W&J has about 1,300 students, so the endowment per student is about $100,000 and there is a clear committment to increase that number - by raising more money, not reducing the number of students :)

Jeff in Tennessee

PS Now see that Bob beat me to the punch.

Bob, might be interesting to compare endowment per full time student which might be a more useful metric.  Jeff
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Ralph Turner

Thanks and +1! to Bob and WashJeff 68

$100,000 per student is much closer to what I was expecting. Conrgrats on the $100M capital campaign.

E.115

#4129
Regarding endowment, historic enrollment paints a better picture as well.  I do not think I realized the size differences of CWRU and CMU to be this substantial. 

Institution                                    Location                            Founded       Enrollment
Carnegie Mellon University            Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania              1900            6,362
Case Western Reserve University   Cleveland, Ohio                          1967            4,661
Grove City College                        Grove City, Pennsylvania             1876            2,500
Thomas More College                    Crestview Hills, Kentucky            1921            1,900
Geneva College                            Beaver Falls, Pennsylvania           1848            1,791
Saint Vincent College                    Latrobe, Pennsylvania                 1846            1,652
Washington & Jefferson College     Washington, Pennsylvania           1781            1,519
Waynesburg University                 Waynesburg, Pennsylvania          1849            1,500
Westminster College                     New Wilmington, Pennsylvania    1852            1,482
Thiel College                                Greenville, Pennsylvania             1866            1,066
Bethany College                           Bethany, West Virginia               1840            1,030

Plus I suspect being in a larger city pushes the dollars up a little bit (corporate donations, local executives, etc)

But on that note, I've very surprised to see TMC's endowment only at $15 million...with them being 10 miles from Cincinnati and especially if/when they're considering DII.

What would it cost for DII across all sports?

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

To figure out the costs of DII... figure out how many scholarships are needed for each sport. Do the math across the board for TMC sports. Then add in any additional costs that may be needed for facilities (some may need to be upgraded) and such. Add all of that to the current athletics operating budget.
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Pat Coleman

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on June 02, 2017, 01:03:01 PM
To figure out the costs of DII... figure out how many scholarships are needed for each sport. Do the math across the board for TMC sports. Then add in any additional costs that may be needed for facilities (some may need to be upgraded) and such. Add all of that to the current athletics operating budget.

I had heard once that schools need to make a minimum $1M outlay annually for athletic scholarships to be at the D-II level, but I must emphasize I am no expert in Division II or the D-II NCAA Manual.
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Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: Pat Coleman on June 02, 2017, 01:34:13 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on June 02, 2017, 01:03:01 PM
To figure out the costs of DII... figure out how many scholarships are needed for each sport. Do the math across the board for TMC sports. Then add in any additional costs that may be needed for facilities (some may need to be upgraded) and such. Add all of that to the current athletics operating budget.

I had heard once that schools need to make a minimum $1M outlay annually for athletic scholarships to be at the D-II level, but I must emphasize I am no expert in Division II or the D-II NCAA Manual.

I'm no expert either, by a long shot, but if that number were true... that is basically double the average non-football athletics budget in DIII (if memory serves) ... and 33-50% more of an average football athletics budget. That is a lot of money, especially in tough academic times that we are in.
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Ron Boerger

Quote from: E.115 on June 02, 2017, 01:01:24 PM
Regarding endowment, historic enrollment paints a better picture as well.  I do not think I realized the size differences of CWRU and CMU to be this substantial. 

Institution                                    Location                            Founded       Enrollment
Carnegie Mellon University            Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania              1900            6,362
Case Western Reserve University   Cleveland, Ohio                          1967            4,661

That's undergrad.  CMU is a huge research institution with nearly 14,000 total students; CWRU, close to 12,000.

WashJeff68

So, to pull Bob's and E.115"s numbers together:

School Name      F/T Undergrads        Endowment (Millions)    Endowment/Student
Bethany                    690                         77                                     111,594
Chatham                   611                         53                                        83,743
Geneva                     1,475                      28                                        18,983
Grove City                2,438                     111                                       45,529
St Vincent                 1,532                     71                                        46,345
Thiel                          1,061                     68                                        64,090
Thomas More             1,140                    15                                        13,157
W&J                           1,318                    137                                       103,945
Waynesburg              1,481                      55                                         37,137
Westminster              1,254                   109                                          86,921             
                   
Note: Enrollments from 2015 US News. Two schools (Chatham, TMC) both have large numbers of P/T students which are not reflected.

Some have significantly different enrollment numbers than E.115.  For TMC this probably represents the large number of P/T and non-traditional students attracted to some of their programs. For others it represents the ebb and flow many small LA schools see in their enrollments.

Given their different missions, comparing CMU and CWRU to the other PAC schools is not meaningful, but for CMU it's 268,783 and CWRU 356,146
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jknezek

#4135
This report is a little stale in that it only goes to 2012, but it remarked on revenues and expenses in DII:

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D22013RevExp.pdf

"Virtually all expense indicators have been remarkably steady over
the nine year period, including: athletic aid as 30 to 32 percent of
total expenses for "with FB" schools and 37 down to 36 percent for
"without FB" schools; coaches' compensation at 23 down to 20
percent of overall expenses for "with FB," although this indicator
moved from 19 percent to 17 percent over the period for "without
FB"; and administrative compensation in the 11 to 13 percent range
for both "with FB" and "without FB." (2.7)"

Athletic aid means athletic scholarships, and it is a huge percentage of the budget.  Expenses were between $4 and $5 million on average in 2012, and had risen regularly, so I expect that number to be higher today. From that, we can infer that scholarship costs are, on average, more than $1.2 million per year in DII (4MM x 30%). Expense numbers from page 16, quote came from page 10...

Now even in 2012, there was a large variance. Page 30 shows the aid by quartiles, and it ranged from a low of $600K to a high of almost $3MM (page 30). The middle quartiles were around 900K and 1.3MM.

So yeah, 5 years ago it was going to cost at least $1MM in scholarships to be in the middle of DII. By the way, total revenue for a DII athletic department, on average, was 624K in 2012. So it doesn't even pay for the scholarships let alone anywhere near other expenses. The average Net Generated Revenue, with football, was a loss of $4.5MM. Why does anyone do DII again?

Further salt in the wounds, in 2015 the average operating expense for DIII was a little over $3MM... So even though we don't really have any revenues worth talking about, the cost is only 2/3rds as much as DII, in a comparison of expenses/revenue that is 3 years later..>  http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D32015RevExp.pdf  page 23

jknezek

Quote from: WashJeff68 on June 02, 2017, 02:09:24 PM
So, to pull Bob's and E.115"s numbers together:

School Name      F/T Undergrads        Endowment (Millions)    Endowment/Student
Bethany                    690                         77                                     111,594
Chatham                   611                         53                                        83,743
Geneva                     1,475                      28                                        18,983
Grove City                2,438                     111                                       45,529
St Vincent                 1,532                     71                                        46,345
Thiel                          1,061                     68                                        64,090
Thomas More             1,140                    15                                        13,157
W&J                           1,318                    137                                       103,945
Waynesburg              1,481                      55                                         37,137
Westminster              1,254                   109                                          86,921             
       

Wow. Those numbers for TMC and Geneva are astonishingly low. When you consider that most schools will only use at most 5-7% of their endowment in a year, you are talking about the endowment funding just a few hundred dollars a year per student. A small blip in enrollment and these schools are going to be on a razor's edge with fixed costs and limited ways to support them.

Scots13

Wow. Crazy to think wrestling is on par with men's lacrosse in total operating expenses (pg. 23). I would have guess wrestling to be much lower than lacrosse--mat, headgear, some knee and elbow pads, singlets, and a coach is pretty much it.  You more than likely already have a gym, a weight room, and enough locker space for 20 or so guys. Lacrosse needs a field, some nets, fancy helmets and should pads and generally has a large roster.
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E.115

Quote from: WashJeff68 on June 02, 2017, 02:09:24 PM
So, to pull Bob's and E.115"s numbers together:

School Name      F/T Undergrads        Endowment (Millions)    Endowment/Student
Bethany                    690                         77                                     111,594
Chatham                   611                         53                                        83,743
Geneva                     1,475                      28                                        18,983
Grove City                2,438                     111                                       45,529
St Vincent                 1,532                     71                                        46,345
Thiel                          1,061                     68                                        64,090
Thomas More             1,140                    15                                        13,157
W&J                           1,318                    137                                       103,945
Waynesburg              1,481                      55                                         37,137
Westminster              1,254                   109                                          86,921             
                   
Note: Enrollments from 2015 US News. Two schools (Chatham, TMC) both have large numbers of P/T students which are not reflected.

Some have significantly different enrollment numbers than E.115.  For TMC this probably represents the large number of P/T and non-traditional students attracted to some of their programs. For others it represents the ebb and flow many small LA schools see in their enrollments.

Given their different missions, comparing CMU and CWRU to the other PAC schools is not meaningful, but for CMU it's 268,783 and CWRU 356,146

WashJeff68,

Much thanks for verifying/correcting with proper data.  I pulled from a more unofficial source -- wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidents%27_Athletic_Conference#Member_schools

And thanks for the breakdown.  Extremely interesting perspective.

SaintsFAN

Quote from: jknezek on June 02, 2017, 02:30:51 PM
Quote from: WashJeff68 on June 02, 2017, 02:09:24 PM
So, to pull Bob's and E.115"s numbers together:

School Name      F/T Undergrads        Endowment (Millions)    Endowment/Student
Bethany                    690                         77                                     111,594
Chatham                   611                         53                                        83,743
Geneva                     1,475                      28                                        18,983
Grove City                2,438                     111                                       45,529
St Vincent                 1,532                     71                                        46,345
Thiel                          1,061                     68                                        64,090
Thomas More             1,140                    15                                        13,157
W&J                           1,318                    137                                       103,945
Waynesburg              1,481                      55                                         37,137
Westminster              1,254                   109                                          86,921             
       

Wow. Those numbers for TMC and Geneva are astonishingly low. When you consider that most schools will only use at most 5-7% of their endowment in a year, you are talking about the endowment funding just a few hundred dollars a year per student. A small blip in enrollment and these schools are going to be on a razor's edge with fixed costs and limited ways to support them.

Yes.  Now at least people can say, "you're endowment is smaller than ours" to the TMC players.
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