Conference changes

Started by hopefan, May 01, 2008, 11:25:46 AM

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Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: iwumichigander on April 11, 2017, 09:16:27 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 10, 2017, 12:25:16 PM
Saint Anselm has dropped out temporarily. They have announced that they are staying in DII for right now. They are still exploring leaving DII for DIII but they botched the process so badly the first go around that they were left rudderless and without sails. And I might be the only one who says this, but I think the status of their AD in relation to the UWSP investigation may have Saint Anselm trying to stay even keeled for right now. They have had too many missteps to continue pushing to DIII, but I would be somewhat surprised if they don't reemerge in the DIII conversation in a year or two (I believe they will work with other DIIs in New England on forming a conference so the jump is less jolting).
Saint Anselm has struggled on a number if issues outside of sports.  With the proliferation of DIII New England schools, getting in a "right matched" conference would be important.  There are several DIII within short distance of St Anselm but IMHO not necessarily a "right match" academically or philosophically.  More homework required

Saint Anselm actually sunk it's own ship when it came to "right match" when they announced their intent to leave for DIII. In their original statement, they mentioned at the end how they were very similar to a number of schools and basically named half the NEWMAC. The original plan was apparently to join the NEWMAC. I was told it was basically a "rubber stamp" thing and St. A would be int the NEWMAC pretty soon. St. A's announcement was in December, I believe, and the official vote was coming I believe in May (or June). However, there was quite a bit of displeasure with the fact St. A basically called out half the NEWMAC as being the type of schools it could see itself aligning with and things went sideways. St. A was actually asked to remove the names of the schools on their press release and later that day (or the next day) that reference was gone. Then when the vote came in the NEWMAC, it was overwhelmingly a "no." That caught a few people by surprise including St. A. It then left them rudderless and without sails.

So St. A had a plan... but they screwed it up. Now they are left with nothing. If you look around New England, basically the NESCAC and NEWMAC are the best fits. The NEWMAC doesn't want them anymore and the NESCAC isn't going to look their way. The CCC is around, but they aren't a good fit. Almost like Goldilocks and the three bears except ... as several people have put it to me: St. A is maybe a little "low" for the NESCAC, they are a pretty good, but not great fit for the NEWMAC, and they are a little too "high" in terms of standards for the CCC. The NESCAC isn't going to look at them, the NEWMAC already shunned them, and the CCC isn't going to want them (and honestly, St. A doesn't want to be in the CCC). That leaves St. A no one to dance with unless they want to extend their travel. They aren't a good fight at all for the NAC, NEAC, and the rest. They would have to look at the Empire 8 and Liberty for any choice (and I mentioned that to a few Liberty folk while they were desperate to find another football partner), but that is a long distance and those conferences aren't necessarily interested either.

As I said, I think they will look to other DIIs and see if more of them want to go to DIII and make a conference of that group (maybe with some DIIIs defecting their conferences; things are rather fluid in New England right now). For hockey reasons, especially, I think this could happen. I also know many are frustrated with the conference in DIII up there and thus one of the reasons St. A was leaving as well. It will take some time, but keep an eye on that group.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

iwumichigander

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 17, 2017, 12:13:29 PM
Quote from: iwumichigander on April 11, 2017, 09:16:27 PM
Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on April 10, 2017, 12:25:16 PM
Saint Anselm has dropped out temporarily. They have announced that they are staying in DII for right now. They are still exploring leaving DII for DIII but they botched the process so badly the first go around that they were left rudderless and without sails. And I might be the only one who says this, but I think the status of their AD in relation to the UWSP investigation may have Saint Anselm trying to stay even keeled for right now. They have had too many missteps to continue pushing to DIII, but I would be somewhat surprised if they don't reemerge in the DIII conversation in a year or two (I believe they will work with other DIIs in New England on forming a conference so the jump is less jolting).
Saint Anselm has struggled on a number if issues outside of sports.  With the proliferation of DIII New England schools, getting in a "right matched" conference would be important.  There are several DIII within short distance of St Anselm but IMHO not necessarily a "right match" academically or philosophically.  More homework required

Saint Anselm actually sunk it's own ship when it came to "right match" when they announced their intent to leave for DIII. In their original statement, they mentioned at the end how they were very similar to a number of schools and basically named half the NEWMAC. The original plan was apparently to join the NEWMAC. I was told it was basically a "rubber stamp" thing and St. A would be int the NEWMAC pretty soon. St. A's announcement was in December, I believe, and the official vote was coming I believe in May (or June). However, there was quite a bit of displeasure with the fact St. A basically called out half the NEWMAC as being the type of schools it could see itself aligning with and things went sideways. St. A was actually asked to remove the names of the schools on their press release and later that day (or the next day) that reference was gone. Then when the vote came in the NEWMAC, it was overwhelmingly a "no." That caught a few people by surprise including St. A. It then left them rudderless and without sails.

So St. A had a plan... but they screwed it up. Now they are left with nothing. If you look around New England, basically the NESCAC and NEWMAC are the best fits. The NEWMAC doesn't want them anymore and the NESCAC isn't going to look their way. The CCC is around, but they aren't a good fit. Almost like Goldilocks and the three bears except ... as several people have put it to me: St. A is maybe a little "low" for the NESCAC, they are a pretty good, but not great fit for the NEWMAC, and they are a little too "high" in terms of standards for the CCC. The NESCAC isn't going to look at them, the NEWMAC already shunned them, and the CCC isn't going to want them (and honestly, St. A doesn't want to be in the CCC). That leaves St. A no one to dance with unless they want to extend their travel. They aren't a good fight at all for the NAC, NEAC, and the rest. They would have to look at the Empire 8 and Liberty for any choice (and I mentioned that to a few Liberty folk while they were desperate to find another football partner), but that is a long distance and those conferences aren't necessarily interested either.

As I said, I think they will look to other DIIs and see if more of them want to go to DIII and make a conference of that group (maybe with some DIIIs defecting their conferences; things are rather fluid in New England right now). For hockey reasons, especially, I think this could happen. I also know many are frustrated with the conference in DIII up there and thus one of the reasons St. A was leaving as well. It will take some time, but keep an eye on that group.
Oh, I agree with your analysis.  NEWMAC was likely the best fit.  Creating another conference would be a big task.  And the "New Englander" hard headedness in terms of whatever they did or did not do with the NEWMAC will make it very difficult for St. A to make a change now.
If I learned one or two thing will living there was 1) getting accepted to make a change not easy, 2) despite differences between groups like conferences, all of them will find out what happened and band together.  It is the "we have done it this way for more than two hundred years so why should we change now" mentality.

Pat Coleman

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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Greek Tragedy

Curious if the NACC will move to a 2-division conference (again). I recall when they had a short-lived 2-division conference where some guy came up with a brilliant idea to shuffle team(s) in and out of divisions (odd number of tes/rivalries?)  :P  ;D  :D They'll have an even number of teams now.
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Gregory Sager

They won't for long. Benedictine is moving to D2 in a couple of years. The demise of St. Joseph's (IN) opens up a spot in the GLVC that Benedictine will probably fill.

The divisional shuffle also had to do with the imbalance between Illinois schools and Wisconsin schools, and with the fact that the closest Wisconsin schools to the cluster of four suburban Chicagoland NACC members were themselves a cluster of three Milwaukee-area schools.

The NACC is always going to be off-kilter as long as it contains Alverno, a women's college. Either the men will have an odd number or the women will have an odd number. I'm not sure why the league doesn't also add Mount Mary, a women's college located in Milwaukee that's been a D3 independent for years, as another member, so that the men and women won't be off-kilter anymore in the odd-and-even department. Then again, since once Benedictine moves to D2 the league will be back to an odd number of co-ed institutions, adding Mount Mary wouldn't help for scheduling purposes.
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Pat Coleman

Hopefully Mount Mary continues to field all of its teams every year. That's a good next step for them.
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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

Just Bill

Quote from: Greek Tragedy on May 03, 2017, 02:39:14 PM
Curious if the NACC will move to a 2-division conference (again). I recall when they had a short-lived 2-division conference where some guy came up with a brilliant idea to shuffle team(s) in and out of divisions (odd number of tes/rivalries?)  :P  ;D  :D They'll have an even number of teams now.

One way or another, because of Alverno, the NACC is always dealing with odd number of teams in some sport.
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Greek Tragedy

I was just referring to men's basketball, unless I'm on the wrong board.  ???  ;D  :)  :D
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Gregory Sager

Quote from: Pat Coleman on May 03, 2017, 04:31:31 PM
Hopefully Mount Mary continues to field all of its teams every year. That's a good next step for them.

Yeah, I have to admit that Mount Mary is notorious for fielding teams that barely have enough players. Sometimes the Blue Angels can't even cover the minimum. Once they showed up at NPU with only eight women's soccer players, and, since the game couldn't be rescheduled, this happened.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 03, 2017, 03:22:50 PM
They won't for long. Benedictine is moving to D2 in a couple of years. The demise of St. Joseph's (IN) opens up a spot in the GLVC that Benedictine will probably fill.

The divisional shuffle also had to do with the imbalance between Illinois schools and Wisconsin schools, and with the fact that the closest Wisconsin schools to the cluster of four suburban Chicagoland NACC members were themselves a cluster of three Milwaukee-area schools.

The NACC is always going to be off-kilter as long as it contains Alverno, a women's college. Either the men will have an odd number or the women will have an odd number. I'm not sure why the league doesn't also add Mount Mary, a women's college located in Milwaukee that's been a D3 independent for years, as another member, so that the men and women won't be off-kilter anymore in the odd-and-even department. Then again, since once Benedictine moves to D2 the league will be back to an odd number of co-ed institutions, adding Mount Mary wouldn't help for scheduling purposes.

I have heard this report about moving to DII as well, however my sources say they are exploring it, but not necessarily pursuing it. Exploring may be to just to make some alums or others happy... but that the school is very familiar with other DIIIs who made the leap to DII and regretted it. McMurry is one example. Lincoln is an example of how it has fallen apart. I wouldn't count my chickens on Benedictine moving to DII just yet.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Gregory Sager

My sources, which include Benedictine insiders who know everybody involved, as well as people who are dealing with NACC leadership, tell me that it's much, much farther along than mere exploration -- and that the instigation is coming from the administration rather than from the alumni base.

Benedictine is neither McMurry nor Lincoln. It's a very different institution in a very different location. That's not to say that moving to D2 would be all beer and skittles for the Bennies. (I'm not a big proponent of D2, although I recognize its usefulness, and I'm skeptical of the benefits for schools at that level that, like Benedictine, better reflect the usual small-private-liberal-arts-college model of D3 than the typical mid-sized-state-university model of D2.) I'm just saying that comparing BU to schools that have sharply contrasting profiles and locations has a certain apples-and-oranges aspect to it.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 04, 2017, 02:44:26 PM
My sources, which include Benedictine insiders who know everybody involved, as well as people who are dealing with NACC leadership, tell me that it's much, much farther along than mere exploration -- and that the instigation is coming from the administration rather than from the alumni base.

Benedictine is neither McMurry nor Lincoln. It's a very different institution in a very different location. That's not to say that moving to D2 would be all beer and skittles for the Bennies. (I'm not a big proponent of D2, although I recognize its usefulness, and I'm skeptical of the benefits for schools at that level that, like Benedictine, better reflect the usual small-private-liberal-arts-college model of D3 than the typical mid-sized-state-university model of D2.) I'm just saying that comparing BU to schools that have sharply contrasting profiles and locations has a certain apples-and-oranges aspect to it.

Well technically it can't be any further along than exploration in the eyes of the NCAA. Remember, this is not a quick process. It will years for this to move forward. Moving up is slower than moving down, for the most part.

And while I know Benedictine is not McMurry or Lincoln, (a) those were just two examples I had off the top of my head and (b) they still tell a story. There are several others I know have looked at moving up (though for some, D1 was or is the ultimate goal) and they have either gone no where or gotten stuck in the mud later on. While I don't believe Benedictine is taking this lightly and I know full well there is a strong push on campus... that doesn't necessarily mean it is going to happen in the long run. Just the added numbers to the budget per scholarships can derail things quickly. Rowan was putting pieces in place for several years with a move coming any year... I can't tell you how much that move has clearly stalled out despite what many said was a sure thing.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Gregory Sager

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 04, 2017, 02:47:48 PM
Quote from: Gregory Sager on May 04, 2017, 02:44:26 PM
My sources, which include Benedictine insiders who know everybody involved, as well as people who are dealing with NACC leadership, tell me that it's much, much farther along than mere exploration -- and that the instigation is coming from the administration rather than from the alumni base.

Benedictine is neither McMurry nor Lincoln. It's a very different institution in a very different location. That's not to say that moving to D2 would be all beer and skittles for the Bennies. (I'm not a big proponent of D2, although I recognize its usefulness, and I'm skeptical of the benefits for schools at that level that, like Benedictine, better reflect the usual small-private-liberal-arts-college model of D3 than the typical mid-sized-state-university model of D2.) I'm just saying that comparing BU to schools that have sharply contrasting profiles and locations has a certain apples-and-oranges aspect to it.

Well technically it can't be any further along than exploration in the eyes of the NCAA. Remember, this is not a quick process. It will years for this to move forward. Moving up is slower than moving down, for the most part.

Yep. Very true.

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 04, 2017, 02:47:48 PMAnd while I know Benedictine is not McMurry or Lincoln, (a) those were just two examples I had off the top of my head and (b) they still tell a story. There are several others I know have looked at moving up (though for some, D1 was or is the ultimate goal) and they have either gone no where or gotten stuck in the mud later on. While I don't believe Benedictine is taking this lightly and I know full well there is a strong push on campus... that doesn't necessarily mean it is going to happen in the long run. Just the added numbers to the budget per scholarships can derail things quickly. Rowan was putting pieces in place for several years with a move coming any year... I can't tell you how much that move has clearly stalled out despite what many said was a sure thing.

Nothing is for certain in a situation like divisional reclassification in which the ultimate decision is not made by the university itself. But I don't foresee any impediments coming from D2, especially if the GLVC invites Benedictine to take the spot in its membership roll being vacated by St. Joseph's (IN) (which will close its doors for good this month). And BU does seem to have the institutional pieces in place -- location, facilities, lack of nearby competition for D2-level recruits, and a willing new league -- to make the move feasible and possibly even advantageous. I think that this is widely recognized around the school, which is why everybody I know who has talked about it does so as if it's already a done deal.
"To see what is in front of one's nose is a constant struggle." -- George Orwell

gordonmann

Wait, let's go back to beer and skittles. Is that still an option? :)

Pat Coleman

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Quote from: old 40 on September 25, 2007, 08:23:57 PMLet's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.