FB: Ohio Athletic Conference

Started by admin, August 16, 2005, 05:05:38 AM

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formerd3db

Captainref81:

Well, some coaches are offended. However, that is just the way it is. I believe the jist of the discussion is that everyone agrees that a) we know what reasonably constitutes a vindictive running up the score and b) "to each his own" as far as coaches and all us ex's with regard to the philosophy in handling the scenarios you and everyone have provided. And that is okay, nothing wrong with those differing philosophies. In the end, everyone just has to deal (live) with it. Do appreciate you sharing your comments/opinion.
"When the Great Scorer comes To mark against your name, He'll write not 'won' or 'lost', But how you played the game." - Grantland Rice

formerd3db

MUC57:
I am not qualified to be President of our club because I am not smart enough nor have the talent to come up with the great and hilarious lines that you and all the others do!😁
"When the Great Scorer comes To mark against your name, He'll write not 'won' or 'lost', But how you played the game." - Grantland Rice

MUC57

Quote from: Captainred81 on October 08, 2019, 01:50:31 PM
There is something to be said for not going 'overboard' with scoring.  Mount Union had 42 points with more than half of the 2nd Quarter left to play.  They could have scored 100+ points.  They are also in a place where they need to let their 1's play as long as possible.  They also need to keep the futures hungry.  I suspect part of the reason that Plunk was in, in the 2nd Quarter, was so that he could score and play with the top players on the team.  The coaches will figure out a way to sub in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th string when the game gets out of hand early.  This allows these players to play and not worry about scoring.  Also, don't forget that a lot of the players that are out there in the 4th, are lineman etc... They get to have the live reps against other teams, and it makes no difference to them how many points are scored while they are out there.  U

I agree with the concept of not running up the score.  I really can't imagine that other teams players or coaches are that offended when Mount or any other teams intentionally do not score.

Captainred81

I like much of what you say. It makes sense. However; just a couple things.

First. Let's be clear when we say, "running up the score". The phrase certainly has an unpleasant connotation. Here's A real life example. A team leads by 50 some points. After several passes, a TD is scored. The team goes for the 2 point conversion and makes it. Then, said team does an onside kick. Final score - 97 to 0! That's "running up the score".

Second. A casual survey was taken some years back. Out of 33 coaches around the country who responded, 30 said not scoring was "a slap in the face". Does this mean all coaches don't care for Mount's style? Of course not. But some do!

I will probably get hammered for my comments, but, what the hell. I'm old. I don't care. I WILL speak my mind.

Pat Coleman, I'm sure, said it best. Does the phrase "catch-22" ring a bell?

GO EVERYBODY! 🏈 🍺
I'm old! I get mixed up and I forget things! Go Everybody! 🏈 ☠

jamtod

Quote from: MUC57 on October 08, 2019, 02:42:16 PM

First. Let's be clear when we say, "running up the score". The phrase certainly has an unpleasant connotation. Here's A real life example. A team leads by 50 some points. After several passes, a TD is scored. The team goes for the 2 point conversion and makes it. Then, said team does an onside kick. Final score - 97 to 0! That's "running up the score".


I hate to let facts get in the way of a good example, and forgive me if you are thinking of a different 97-0 game that actually fits your scenario, but most of that is inaccurate. You might conclude that the actual facts are egregious which you are welcome to, but let's at least get them accurate.

1. The online onside kick in that game was attempted by St Olaf on the opening kick.
2. UST went for 2 3 different times, on the first 2 TDs (1st was unsucessful, 2nd was successful) and then mid-way through the 2nd quarter to go up 43-0.
3. The passing TD was also in the 2nd quarter and put us up 57-0. It's recorded as a 61 yard TD pass but I don't remember the exact scenario. Olaf couldn't stop us so it very well may have been a screen pass. It was the only play on that drive.
4. If you want to make your case, you are better off focusing on the rushing TD scored by a backup (3rd string?) senior offensive lineman to make it 97-0. After the score, we did not attempt the extra point, which in the original box score may have been reported as a failed 2-pt attempt.

MUC57

Quote from: jamtod on October 08, 2019, 02:58:21 PM
Quote from: MUC57 on October 08, 2019, 02:42:16 PM

First. Let's be clear when we say, "running up the score". The phrase certainly has an unpleasant connotation. Here's A real life example. A team leads by 50 some points. After several passes, a TD is scored. The team goes for the 2 point conversion and makes it. Then, said team does an onside kick. Final score - 97 to 0! That's "running up the score".


I hate to let facts get in the way of a good example, and forgive me if you are thinking of a different 97-0 game that actually fits your scenario, but most of that is inaccurate. You might conclude that the actual facts are egregious which you are welcome to, but let's at least get them accurate.

1. The online onside kick in that game was attempted by St Olaf on the opening kick.
2. UST went for 2 3 different times, on the first 2 TDs (1st was unsucessful, 2nd was successful) and then mid-way through the 2nd quarter to go up 43-0.
3. The passing TD was also in the 2nd quarter and put us up 57-0. It's recorded as a 61 yard TD pass but I don't remember the exact scenario. Olaf couldn't stop us so it very well may have been a screen pass. It was the only play on that drive.
4. If you want to make your case, you are better off focusing on the rushing TD scored by a backup (3rd string?) senior offensive lineman to make it 97-0. After the score, we did not attempt the extra point, which in the original box score may have been reported as a failed 2-pt attempt.

jamtod

Thanks for your comments. If I made any mistakes, I certainly apologize. I' m going by memory, not so good any more, and stories passed on by others. However; I do know a lot of people were pissed off, people closer to the game than me. I think you must admit, Caruso is a little less than a saint.
I do remember the 2012 Stagg Bowl. At the end? Do you?

Anyhoo, best to St. Thomas as you move forward. Hope all goes well and works out to be what's best for the school and the students.  :)
I'm old! I get mixed up and I forget things! Go Everybody! 🏈 ☠

MUC57


I think I've talked enough about Mount's philosophy on scoring in blowout games.
I wanted to express my opinion and, hopefully, make for some discussion. I have accomplished both of those objectives. Thanks for the responses whether you agree with me or not.
Good luck to all of our Dlll teams as the season progresses. Go Dlll 🏈 ❗️
I'm old! I get mixed up and I forget things! Go Everybody! 🏈 ☠

Captainred81

That's an interesting stat about the 30 coaches that consider a slap in the face.  I'm not sure how I would feel.  I would certainly want the opposing to continue to play hard.  I would expect them put in the lesser experienced players.  However, I think going for long pass plays, and intentionally putting as many points on the board as possible is not honorable. Trying to embarrass another team, is what is trying to be avoided. 

I don't think that trying to get everyone a touchdown is good reason to put more points on the board.  I always applaud the athletes that stay with their sport even if they don't start or play very much.  I think those players would love to score touchdowns, but they are in the sport and continue in the sport for a different reason. 
Any W.I.N is a B.F.D

formerd3db

jamtod, are you sure he was talking about the same 97-0 game your were?🙂 If he wasn't such an imaginary scenario like that is indeed running up the score. I also agree with you about a 3rd string lineman scoring a TD as you describe. If it was a 3rd string RB, not so, IMO.
Anyway, in the spirit of that famous phrase "I think we have beaten this dead horse enough."🤪😬🙂
"When the Great Scorer comes To mark against your name, He'll write not 'won' or 'lost', But how you played the game." - Grantland Rice

jamtod

Quote from: formerd3db on October 08, 2019, 04:59:36 PM
jamtod, are you sure he was talking about the same 97-0 game your were?🙂 If he wasn't such an imaginary scenario like that is indeed running up the score. I also agree with you about a 3rd string lineman scoring a TD as you describe. If it was a 3rd string RB, not so, IMO.
Anyway, in the spirit of that famous phrase "I think we have beaten this dead horse enough."🤪😬🙂

Maybe he was thinking of 98-0 which everyone's beloved Johnnies put up  ;D
The 3rd, 4th, and 5th string RBs had already gotten their carries (and TDs) so the big boy got a chance to see the field and tote the rock, figuring he'd just plow into the line. Woops. Honestly, it was pretty awesome  ;)

MUC57

#59784
Quote from: formerd3db on October 08, 2019, 02:29:50 PM
MUC57:
I am not qualified to be President of our club because I am not smart enough nor have the talent to come up with the great and hilarious lines that you and all the others do!😁

Formerd3db

Aw, come on doc. You MUST have the talent. And I bet you're a real "cut up". Get it? Real "cut up"! Take my wife - please. Oh, that Henny Youngman! But I digress.
Good luck to Hope Saturday. Go get 'em!  ;D
I'm old! I get mixed up and I forget things! Go Everybody! 🏈 ☠

MUC57

#59785
Quote from: formerd3db on October 08, 2019, 04:59:36 PM
jamtod, are you sure he was talking about the same 97-0 game your were?🙂 If he wasn't such an imaginary scenario like that is indeed running up the score. I also agree with you about a 3rd string lineman scoring a TD as you describe. If it was a 3rd string RB, not so, IMO.
Anyway, in the spirit of that famous phrase "I think we have beaten this dead horse enough."🤪😬🙂

My post from earlier.

Quote from: MUC57 on October 08, 2019, 03:20:01 PM

I think I've talked enough about Mount's philosophy on scoring in blowout games.
I wanted to express my opinion and, hopefully, make for some discussion. I have accomplished both of those objectives. Thanks for the responses whether you agree with me or not.
Good luck to all of our Dlll teams as the season progresses. Go Dlll 🏈 ❗️

Dead horse! 🐎🔫
I'm old! I get mixed up and I forget things! Go Everybody! 🏈 ☠

HScoach

Quote from: Captainred81 on October 08, 2019, 04:55:16 PM
That's an interesting stat about the 30 coaches that consider a slap in the face.  I'm not sure how I would feel.  I would certainly want the opposing to continue to play hard.  I would expect them put in the lesser experienced players.  However, I think going for long pass plays, and intentionally putting as many points on the board as possible is not honorable. Trying to embarrass another team, is what is trying to be avoided. 

I don't think that trying to get everyone a touchdown is good reason to put more points on the board.  I always applaud the athletes that stay with their sport even if they don't start or play very much.  I think those players would love to score touchdowns, but they are in the sport and continue in the sport for a different reason.

I've been on the sideline for both ends of ugly blowouts and there is DEFINITELY a difference between running up the score and a game getting out of hand.  And on the losing end there is a clear demarcation in how you swallow it.

Running it up consists of one or more of the following:

1.  Keeping your offensive starters in past the early 3rd quarter when leading big when the opponent is clearly over matched.  A 40 point lead over a team like Hiram is different than that same lead over a playoff quality team (ala Wesley) when everything goes wrong and creates the huge deficit.  In the latter my starters play until the opponent is buried beyond dead!  In the former my starters are playing only long enough to get their work in.  I could care less about when you pull your starting defense, though common decency says 1 series after the opponent pulls their starting O.

2.  The winning team's offense is running deep passes, reverses, fake punts, onside kicks, etc once a lesser opponent (see #1 above) is covered regardless of whether it's the 2nd or 3rd or 50th string offense.  Basic running plays with your back-ups is OK until the score gets "really ugly".  And in my book really ugly is something like 56-3 or worse.  I don't have a problem with scoring in the 70's if your defense has given up something like 20 or 30 points as the margin is reasonable.   Passing is OK if 3rd and long and only then to get the 1st down. 

3.  Punt returns that aren't fair caught when the score is "really ugly".  Especially when it's a starter returning them.


Regardless of the score differential, the following doesn't count as running it up:
1.  Defensive scores if you've pulled your starting D as noted above. 


My personal opinion is that if my team is getting buried and can't compete, that it would be much less humiliating for the opposing offense to actively not score than to 'keep playing the game' and for the score to end up in the neighborhood of 80-0.  I have no problem with kicking FG's on 1st and goal to keep the score down.  Or taking a knee 4 times to give the ball back.  My belief is that those coaches that claim to be offended by taking a knee probably haven't been in that situation and are answering from a typical coaching bravado perspective of wanting to compete no matter the situation.

I coached on teams that could have won by 100 if we wanted to and unfortunately other years had a team that was bad enough to lose by 100 too.  One scenario was obviously a lot more fun than the other, but being on both ends gives a unique perspective that I don't think most people have.
I find easily offended people rather offensive!

Statistics are like bikinis; what they reveal is interesting, what they hide is essential.

formerd3db

Okay, HScoach, we'll, relent and allow another comment on the topic. :) Just kidding, yours are always welcome as well.  You provide another angle to consider on this, so thanks.

BTW, MUC, I am laughing at your joke (like Joe Peschi says in My Cousin Vinnie..."I think I get the picture! :o :))
"When the Great Scorer comes To mark against your name, He'll write not 'won' or 'lost', But how you played the game." - Grantland Rice

Desertraider

I don't think "running up the score" enters into Mount's thought process. I used to - but then I started paying a bit more attention. I think the game reaches a point where Mount decides to treat it like a practice and work on things that they want to do or didn't do well previously, and work the kickers. They played a game last year (can't tell you who) and the run game was not getting yards on the off tackle plays. The game was over at half and the 1st 2 series in the 3rd Mount went off tackle left and right for 2 straight series...every play. Then the 2s and 3s played the remainder. I swear it was the same play on every down. I have seen Mount go with the simple run game plays and work in the  WR screen, and go at tempo, for a couple series and then put in backups. The game became a practice. In reality - what are they supposed to do? Still have 2 quarters to play and the drives have been 3 and 5 plays all game. In addition, you can't expect a kicker to come in during a playoff game and hit a 45 yd FG when they haven't kicked in a game situation all season. Mount has had some special teams issues (snaps). Score is 50-0 or whatever - get the FG unit on the field and work the snap, hold and kick. The reality is Mount has had a ton of games where they could have scored in triple digits - and we all know that. I think they haven't done it because they decided they would gain more by "practicing" special teams, etc.

The only time I have seen Mount second guess this was against Ott quite a few years back. I saw the 2s and 3s go in and then Ott had like 3 unsportsmanlike penalties (hits out of bounds, late hits, bad hits) and the 1s came back in and scored twice real fast and then came out. It was 70's to next to nothing game.
RIP MUC57 - Go Everybody!
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   Mount Union quarterback D'Angelo Fulford is currently NCAA D3"s highest rated passer with a 223.7 passer rating.