Elite colleges, athletics, and admissions

Started by Falconer, October 23, 2018, 04:42:48 PM

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Falconer

I ran across this interesting piece in Atlantic today:

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2018/10/college-sports-benefits-white-students/573688/

NESCAC and Ivy League schools are implicated. Here are a few provocative quotes. Each paragraph below is an unedited quote from the piece; in other words, the passages "marked as quotes" (thus) are quoted within the article itself.

(1) All applicants to Harvard are ranked on a scale of one to six based on their academic qualifications, and athletes who scored a four were accepted at a rate of about 70 percent. Yet the admit rate for nonathletes with the same score was 0.076 percent—nearly 1,000 times lower.

(2) Put another way, college sports at elite schools are a quiet sort of affirmative action for affluent white kids, and play a big role in keeping these institutions so stubbornly white and affluent. What makes this all the more perplexing, says John Thelin, a historian of higher education at the University of Kentucky, is that "no other nation has the equivalent of American college sports." It's a particular quirk of the American higher-education system that ultimately has major ramifications for who gets in—and who doesn't—to selective colleges. [My comment: in context, this isn't referring to soccer, but to certain other sports.]

(3) [In context, this one applies to D3 schools and Ivies.] Over the summer, coaches compile lists of the athletes they want, which they then share with the admissions office. "Most of the recruiting happens in the early rounds. Once coaches have their list, they would rather wrap up the whole process early rather than wait until the spring," Hernandez said. That the recruited athletes are chosen early on is seemingly mundane, but it warps the process in favor of wealthier kids who can send in early-decision applications to selective schools without fretting about the size of the financial-aid package they'll receive.

(4) The processes that funnel rich white athletes to selective colleges aren't going anywhere in the short term, but in a possible future in which colleges can no longer consider race in admissions, there could be renewed public pressure for these schools to clear the musty cobwebs of the admissions process that undermine their self-proclaimed ethos as America's engines of social mobility.

That's enough tidbits. If anyone wants to talk about any of these points, I suggest simply identifying the point by my numbering rather than quoting this lengthy post, in order to make the thread easier to follow. I gather that "tips" given by NESCAC soccer coaches are the very type of thing pertinent to this article, and there may be similar practices elsewhere. Absolutely it happens at the Ivies, too--as this article (and others I've seen over the years) spells out.

PaulNewman

#1
Guess what....rich white kids go to very selective schools....even when they aren't athletes.....who knew?

And if less "4s" got in by virtue of being athletes, they'd just take more "6s." 

Falconer

I doubt that most of the commentary/complaints in the article apply very much to the vast majority of D3 schools--probably to zero schools (e.g.) in the two MAC conferences or the Liberty conference. Perhaps to a few of the Centennial or NCAC schools and a few dozen other places.

WUPHF

#3
It is an interesting story.

65% of Ivy League athletes are white.
79% of NESCAC athletes are white.

It raises a lot of questions, including, what is the percentage of overall US college-bound 18-22 year students?  And, is that at all a starting (or ending) point to the discussion? 

Not to pick on the NESCAC, but Amherst says that 45% of their student body identify as students of color.  The Tufts Fact Book says that 3,877 or 28% of their students are non-white.  Is the idea that 28% of student-athletes at Tufts must be non-white?

PaulNewman

Quote from: WUPHF on October 23, 2018, 05:14:48 PM
It is an interesting story.

65% of Ivy League athletes are white.
79% of NESCAC athletes are white.

It raises a lot of questions, including, what is the percentage of overall US college-bound 18-22 year students?  And, is that at all a starting (or ending) point to the discussion? 

Not to pick on the NESCAC, but Amherst says that 45% of their student body identify as students of color.  The Tufts Fact Book says that 3,877 or 28% of their students are non-white.  Is the idea that 28% of students at Tufts must be non-white?

That number for Tufts sounds wrong as that would put the total enrollment well over 10K.  At any rate, that 28% would obviously include Asians.

I seriously doubt Amherst is truly 45% students of color.

These schools are also very self-selecting and they have a feeder system (the elite prep school network/industry) which accounts for 50% or more of enrollment.  Access and socioeconomics are definitely huge issues, but as an example, how many African-American student athletes would actually want to go to Bates or Colby?  As has been stated before, the Ivies and NESCACs do have a seemingly ironic and perhaps disproportionate interest in athletics relative to some of their peers, and as the article details, they also offer the types of sports that are very white-privileged dominated.

WUPHF

You are right...those numbers are correct if you include graduate and professional students. 

My Tufts numbers are meaningless.

And, colleges and journalists alike will use the identify as a student of color statistic when it helps the story.  Not to be political, but Rachel Dolezal and a certain Massachusetts Senator once identified as a person of color.

It is certainly not as grabby, but the article could have focused on class and been more interesting.

stancoville

First point: athletes make up a small percentage of these schools, so while the admission rate is VERY different, it is not making a massive impact on the overall population (in most cases).

Main point:

This is an indictment of you sports development (and somewhat education) in our country, not the admissions process of schools. Soccer is a glaring example of lacking minority athletes because of socio-economic factors. This has recently become a major point as US Soccer struggles to find direction and quality players from the massive pool that our country has. Due to socio-economic advantages, these affluent white kids are the ones that are at the levels (academically and athletically) that qualify for college sports. The developmental systems in our country fail those at a socio-economic disadvantage long before they ever reach a college admissions process.

PaulNewman

Quote from: stancoville on October 24, 2018, 11:48:51 AM
First point: athletes make up a small percentage of these schools, so while the admission rate is VERY different, it is not making a massive impact on the overall population (in most cases).

Main point:

This is an indictment of you sports development (and somewhat education) in our country, not the admissions process of schools. Soccer is a glaring example of lacking minority athletes because of socio-economic factors. This has recently become a major point as US Soccer struggles to find direction and quality players from the massive pool that our country has. Due to socio-economic advantages, these affluent white kids are the ones that are at the levels (academically and athletically) that qualify for college sports. The developmental systems in our country fail those at a socio-economic disadvantage long before they ever reach a college admissions process.

I would love to see some hard data but I recall reading or hearing in the past that 25% to as high as 35-40% of students at some elite D3s are athletes playing for varsity teams.

truenorth

I realize this is tangential to the central topic of "diversity in college admissions", but there is ample evidence through the years that college athletes perform as well as, or better, than their non athlete peers in the workplace.  With that in mind, one could make the case that colleges are serving a dual athletic and professional purpose in recruiting student athletes and including them in their communities.

http://time.com/money/4226158/college-student-athlete-life-outcomes-gallup/

https://www.inc.com/christina-desmarais/heres-why-kids-who-play-sports-do-better-in-life.html

stancoville

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 24, 2018, 01:07:58 PM

I would love to see some hard data but I recall reading or hearing in the past that 25% to as high as 35-40% of students at some elite D3s are athletes playing for varsity teams.

I think at some schools, you're definitely right. UChicago, my immediate experience, has ~5,000 undergrads and ~500 athletes so 10%. Which is not insignificant. But in remembering my experience, diversity was still shown in the athletes. So you're correct, I may have misstated. As a former college athlete and one who thought it added a ton to my education, if a school chooses that as their values paradigm, then ok. But they then need to adjust admissions accordingly.

Lots of sliding scales/dependent variables here. But it seems as though some schools are focused on one thing and ignoring the consequences.

PaulNewman

#10
Quote from: stancoville on October 24, 2018, 02:08:03 PM
Quote from: PaulNewman on October 24, 2018, 01:07:58 PM

I would love to see some hard data but I recall reading or hearing in the past that 25% to as high as 35-40% of students at some elite D3s are athletes playing for varsity teams.

I think at some schools, you're definitely right. UChicago, my immediate experience, has ~5,000 undergrads and ~500 athletes so 10%. Which is not insignificant. But in remembering my experience, diversity was still shown in the athletes. So you're correct, I may have misstated. As a former college athlete and one who thought it added a ton to my education, if a school chooses that as their values paradigm, then ok. But they then need to adjust admissions accordingly.

Lots of sliding scales/dependent variables here. But it seems as though some schools are focused on one thing and ignoring the consequences.

Yes, the UAA schools (and schools with more than 3000-3500 students) will of course have a smaller %.  Now consider Haverford with just 1200 students and even with a reputation for being pretty brutal on athletes in terms of admissions.  Or Wabash with 900-1000 (although all male), and also with a football team.

Now, can you explain how you are not a UW-Whitewater alum?  Would you happen to be 6'7 with a long throw-in???

Ejay

Quote from: PaulNewman on October 24, 2018, 01:07:58 PM

I would love to see some hard data but I recall reading or hearing in the past that 25% to as high as 35-40% of students at some elite D3s are athletes playing for varsity teams.

Niche reports on varsity athlete percentages.  A quick look at a few random schools shows:
Calvin - 10%
Tufts - 14%
Dickinson - 23%
Trinity - 24%
W&L - 26%
Kenyon - 28%
Amherst - 31%
St. Lawrence - 32%
Haverford - 33%

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Basic thing to keep in mind: most DIII athletic departments have about the same number of student-athletes involved. The difference in the percentages is completely based on the size of the schools. Obviously, NYU is going to have a smaller percentage involved than Hood because the size of NYU is huge compared to Hood. That's why percentage can't tell the entire story. Sure, the number of sports and the size of those sports (i.e. lacrosse and football) has a factor as well, but the overall undergraduate size of a school is a major factor. NESCACs seem like they have a huge number of student-athletes, but the schools aren't that big in the first place. By default, they are going to have a higher percentage.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Falconer

Quote from: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 24, 2018, 02:53:58 PM
Basic thing to keep in mind: most DIII athletic departments have about the same number of student-athletes involved. The difference in the percentages is completely based on the size of the schools. Obviously, NYU is going to have a smaller percentage involved than Hood because the size of NYU is huge compared to Hood. That's why percentage can't tell the entire story. Sure, the number of sports and the size of those sports (i.e. lacrosse and football) has a factor as well, but the overall undergraduate size of a school is a major factor. NESCACs seem like they have a huge number of student-athletes, but the schools aren't that big in the first place. By default, they are going to have a higher percentage.
Dave, can you comment on the following type of thing?

I'm told by reliable sources that, for reasons related to Title IX, some D3 schools are examined critically for having higher percentages of men than women involved in intercollegiate sports. This is apparently true even at schools that don't have American football. Assuming that is true, then what are those schools supposed to do about it? Nationally, something like 56% of college & university students are women, according to this: http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?action=post;quote=1893223;topic=8893.0. That number might include graduate students; I believe the undergraduate number for women is closer to 60%. So, if you're a school that does not intentionally try to enroll a population of 50/50, as some small colleges do,--a policy that (it seems to me, does by itself suggest that it's easier for men than for women to enroll, given the overall numbers of students actually attending college--then what do you do to increase the % of women in sports? Start denying admission to qualified women who aren't athletes? Close down one or two male sports, simply because the college enrolls more women than men, and therefore men will be a higher % of the athletes?

You see where this is going. If you have any comments, Dave, I'm all ears.

PaulNewman

While there is an obvious correlation with smaller enrollment = greater % of athletes, this also correlates with the impact of athletics and athletes on the feel of the school.....from barely a blip at Chicago or Emory to a definite vibe and part of the "culture" at smaller schools.....and for some kids perhaps a decision that they might not want to go to one of the smaller schools unless they are going to be an athlete if there is not some other clearly defined way that they might fit in.