Rule and Policy Changes

Started by hopefan, June 24, 2015, 09:48:06 AM

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Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Here is what I can tell you from a note I sent to the NCAA per a different twist on what we are talking about. The legislation that was passed in January allows ALL sports to conduct two scrimmages, exhibitions, or joint practices. The legislation is specific to state these contests may occur before the first permissible contest date. However, institutions are not required to play them before the first contest date. They can permissibly conduct them after the first permissible date.

I do not have the answer to playing more than allowed and losing regular season contest dates as a result. I will say that sounds familiar to me, but I need to do some research or follow-up with the NCAA.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Let me add that what Louisiana College is doing with that schedule does not look legal to me. Three dates prior to Nov. 15 while removing one from the regular season doesn't add up. But again, I need to read through some things and ask the NCAA since it is already a topic of conversation.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Found the answer - kind of (my understand in italics below each if needed:

17.3.3 First Contest.
A member institution shall not play its first contest (games, scrimmages and exhibitions) against outside competition in basketball before November 15, except as provided under Bylaw 17.3.3.1. When November 15 falls on a Saturday, Sunday or Monday, a member institution may play its first contest on the Friday immediately preceding November 15.

17.3.3.1 Exceptions.
An institution is permitted to conduct exempted exhibitions, scrimmages or joint practices prior to the first permissible date for regular season competition.

17.3.5.1 Maximum Limitations - Institutional.
A member institution shall limit its total playing schedule against outside competition in basketball in any one year to a maximum of 25 contests (games and scrimmages), except for those contests excluded under Bylaw 17.3.5.3.
This would make it appear that you can have more than the two scrimmages/exhibitions allowed in the exemption, but they then count as part of the 25 contests. The "games and scrimmages" language seems to bear that out. Notice this also says "in any one year." I take that to mean that you can put these games prior to Nov. 15 as long as you stick with those games not counting for regular season. The regular season games cannot start prior to the first contest date.

17.1.4.5 Standard Contest or Date of Competition Exemptions.
17.1.4.5.1 Annual Exemptions.
The maximum number of contests or dates of competition during the traditional segment shall exclude the following (see Figure 17-1):
(a) Conference Championship. Competition in one conference championship tournament (or the tournament used to determine the conference's automatic entry in the NCAA championship);
(b) Season-Ending Tournament. Competition in one season-ending tournament (e.g., NCAA championship, NAIA championship, NCCAA championship). A season-ending tournament is one that involves competition after the end of the regular season between teams that are not identified until the close of that regular season; and
(c) Exhibitions, Scrimmages or Joint Practices. Competition in up to two exhibitions, scrimmages or joint practices against any opponent.
Again, seems to clarify that there are two exhibitions, scrimmages, joint practices allowed and then going back to the other time if you go over those two, they must come out of your 25 game limit.

Basically I take this as a team has 27 total contests to work with. 25 games if they wish plus two exhibitions. They can then work with that number as they see fit. If they go over the two exhibition exemption, they have to take from their 25 games total for the regular season even if it happens before the first contest date.

As for soccer, they have a different number of games allowed (20), but soccer, basketball, and all other team sports are now allowed two exhibition game exemption in pre-season making their total 22 (23 if you count the one date of competition during the non-traditional segment).

I hope that makes sense.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

hopefan

Dave, thanks for the work ... kind of quirky that 27 games is never mentioned...so it does seem that Louisiana is within its rights to call all four games vs D1 opponents exhibitions... and nothing in what you've shown says you can't play 3 exhibitions before the start date, or any number after the start date... very interesting...   almost wonder why D3 schools don't claim any game vs D1 to be an exhibition, when loss to D1 schools is almost inevitable. It only hurts their win-loss record for it to be a real game....








The only thing not to be liked in Florida is no D3 hoops!!!

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: hopefan on October 05, 2017, 06:40:29 PM
Dave, thanks for the work ... kind of quirky that 27 games is never mentioned...so it does seem that Louisiana is within its rights to call all four games vs D1 opponents exhibitions... and nothing in what you've shown says you can't play 3 exhibitions before the start date, or any number after the start date... very interesting...   almost wonder why D3 schools don't claim any game vs D1 to be an exhibition, when loss to D1 schools is almost inevitable. It only hurts their win-loss record for it to be a real game....

Well, if you read the rules you can see there is actually 28 allowed "contests." The key is they have to mention the max amount of regular season games (25), the exemptions outside of those 25 for scrimmages/exhibitions (2), and the alumni game (1). :)

The biggest reason they don't just say 27 is because the scrimmages/exhibitions is now locked at two for all sports, but not all sports have the same allotted amount of games, obviously.

I think there are a few reasons DIIIs don't just mark all DIs as exhibitions. The biggest may be the fact that if they are exhibition they don't count period. While it might be a game they lose, the DI game at least could be considered come NCAA tournament time. Unlikely, sure, but maybe.

They also can't promote or cover an exhibition as much as they can a regular season game. These rules have changed several times, but for the most part it doesn't carry as much weight. Some coaches may want to make sure that game has a much weight as the others.

Thirdly, believe it or not I don't think people read the rules the same as others or understand how it all works. It dates back a few years when I helped a school from accidentally having a 26th game because their DI game wasn't supposed to be an exhibition (it was in season and at the time the wording was hard to understand, but after Nov. 15 it wasn't allowed). They had misunderstood the rule. It was later changed and allowed the game to be exhibition. Then when you read the rules, it doesn't actually say you can just name other games exhibition and lose the game from your record (like Louisiana College has done). So unless someone actually knows how that works or reads it correctly, they aren't going to realize they can do it. So some coaches may not realize they can change the status of the game.

Just a few ideas off the top of my head.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

gordonmann

I've seen a lot more schedules than usual with more than 25 games this season. Hope it all gets worked out and the schools log onto this site to make corrections. :)

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: gordonmann on October 06, 2017, 01:03:46 AM
I've seen a lot more schedules than usual with more than 25 games this season. Hope it all gets worked out and the schools log onto this site to make corrections. :)

Agreed... along with some other miscommunications that I have seen in more frequency than in the past as well. Odd off-season.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

hopefan

Quote from: gordonmann on October 06, 2017, 01:03:46 AM
I've seen a lot more schedules than usual with more than 25 games this season. Hope it all gets worked out and the schools log onto this site to make corrections. :)

I spend as much (or far more) time as anyone this time of the year collecting schedules from school sites and putting them into a spreadsheet... it's the first step of collecting data, some of which I put into these chat rooms each year.  I've got a count of 427 D3 teams this season, and I now have schedules for 419 of them... only 1 has more than 25 regular season games... the College of New Rochelle... there were others, but they have cleared up as I have contacted  SIDs, most of whom have been very thankful for the corrections....

Now then.. want to follow the final 8 wh have not seen fit to release their schedules?  (one of whom I received a rather caustic  note from responding to my request for the schedule... " They'll just have to wait like everyone else. World will keep spinning."

8 unposted on their sites are:

Albertus Magnus
Amherst
Lesley    (yes there is a 2017-18 sked behind the 2016-17 sked, but it is short 3 or 4 games)
Johnson State
Greensboro
Wilson
Stockton
Rosemont

Anyway, Gordon/Dave message me if you have problem schedules and need them reduced to 25
The only thing not to be liked in Florida is no D3 hoops!!!

Pat Coleman

Wow. Catty response from that SID. Worthy of 2007-era Pat Coleman.
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hopefan

Quote from: Pat Coleman on October 10, 2017, 10:38:13 PM
Wow. Catty response from that SID. Worthy of 2007-era Pat Coleman.

the good old days  ;D ;D ;D ;D
The only thing not to be liked in Florida is no D3 hoops!!!

Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Thanks hopefan... I think most of what Gordon and I have found have been games that actually don't exist, are put into the system incorrectly (exhibitions, etc.), and other snags. I have found more than 25 this year more often, but the reasons and the clear-ups have made sense.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

smedindy

With that few of games you could conceivably reverse engineer the other schedules - and sometimes the conferences post the schedules before the teams.

Now if we could get results from some schools...


Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

Quote from: smedindy on October 11, 2017, 12:37:03 PM
With that few of games you could conceivably reverse engineer the other schedules - and sometimes the conferences post the schedules before the teams.

Now if we could get results from some schools...

That's the great thing about Presto and our being associated with them since it was D3scoreboard.com ... reverse engineering takes on a completely different look when they self-fill the other schedules when games are added. :)

Scores on the other hand... yeah.
Host of Hoopsville. USBWA Executive Board member. Broadcast Director for D3sports.com. Broadcaster for NCAA.com & several colleges. PA Announcer for Gophers & Brigade. Follow me on Twitter: @davemchugh or @d3hoopsville.

smedindy

Looks like Louisiana College is at 26, with a 11/10 date with UTEP still there.  That game is on UTEP's site and is listed as regular season for them (of course, because, you know, NCAA logic).

hopefan

Quote from: smedindy on October 11, 2017, 02:45:31 PM
Looks like Louisiana College is at 26, with a 11/10 date with UTEP still there.  That game is on UTEP's site and is listed as regular season for them (of course, because, you know, NCAA logic).

Smed... no.. remember we are talking regular season games only... 3 of Louisiana's games are listed properly as exhibitions (actually, there were 4 listed as exhibitions, but they dropped one in the last several days)  So they have 23 regular season games... which is what Dave and Gordon were referring to... ;)
The only thing not to be liked in Florida is no D3 hoops!!!