FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference

Started by admin, August 16, 2005, 04:58:09 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

PBPOP20

Quote from: UfanBill on April 02, 2018, 09:12:48 PM
Look the NESCAC can do what they want as far as postseason play is concerned but blaming it on "safety"?...come on, that's BS. First only one NESCAC team would qualify for the D3 playoffs each season since without out of conference play, there would be no at large bid.  That's one team for one or two additional games because frankly, that's as far as you would go. You're not that good. Roster depth?...the NCAA holds roster size for playoff games at I believe 55 players suited per game. How is that a problem? As a longtime Union fan, an original NESCAC member, I can say that Union's participation in the D3 playoff is a privilege and a high achievement for the players the team and the school.  It's a thrill for the fans and parents. I'm grateful, as is the whole Union community, for the chance. It brings a lot of pride, spirit and recognition. It is my contention that NESCAC fans just want to find excuses for not participating because it hurts to not have a say in gaining the opportunity. I kind of feel sorry for you guys. ???

I went to Union, I follow Union... Dutchmen aren't that good either.  Even the Maine schools would give the Dutchmen a run for their money... top of the NESCAC would crush them.


UfanBill

#13801
Quote from: PBPOP20 on April 03, 2018, 03:20:44 PM
Quote from: UfanBill on April 02, 2018, 09:12:48 PM
Look the NESCAC can do what they want as far as postseason play is concerned but blaming it on "safety"?...come on, that's BS. First only one NESCAC team would qualify for the D3 playoffs each season since without out of conference play, there would be no at large bid.  That's one team for one or two additional games because frankly, that's as far as you would go. You're not that good. Roster depth?...the NCAA holds roster size for playoff games at I believe 55 players suited per game. How is that a problem? As a longtime Union fan, an original NESCAC member, I can say that Union's participation in the D3 playoff is a privilege and a high achievement for the players the team and the school.  It's a thrill for the fans and parents. I'm grateful, as is the whole Union community, for the chance. It brings a lot of pride, spirit and recognition. It is my contention that NESCAC fans just want to find excuses for not participating because it hurts to not have a say in gaining the opportunity. I kind of feel sorry for you guys. ???

I went to Union, I follow Union... Dutchmen aren't that good either.  Even the Maine schools would give the Dutchmen a run for their money... top of the NESCAC would crush them.

The premise is about NESCAC schools choosing not to participate in post season play. I contend that the pluses far out weigh the minuses. Nobody's comparing Union with the NESCAC as far as how good Union is. For the last decade they would struggle to beat the top NESCAC teams. However, if you indeed  follow Union you would know that they have been in the NCAA D3 playoffs 10 times, going to the championship Stagg Bowl twice. They've also played in 8 post season ECAC games. Their post season record is a very respectful 16-12.   
When I stated the NESCAC is "not that good" I'm comparing it to the hierarchy of D3 football. The Mt. Unions, Wisconsin Whitewater, Mary Harden Baylors .. even the best of the East, Rowan, Ithaca, Delaware Valley, Wesley and currently Brockport ARE BETTER..No matter how good YOU think Trinity or Amherst is they WOULD NOT win a national championship. That's why I stated that they would probably only play one or two additional games in the post season. It wouldn't be a burden on the players or the school. Remember most high school teams now play 10+ games. As a Union fan I'm grateful that Union is not a NESCAC member and has that "carrot at the end of a stick" incentive, post season play.
"You don't stop playing because you got old, you got old because you stopped playing" 🏈🏀⚾🎿⛳

nescac1

Part of the issue is that NESCAC schools AREN'T that good in football relative to their D3 peers, which is a different situation than every other sport that NESCAC competes in (almost all of which at least one NESCAC school has won at least one national title in).  I think the idea of playing one or two rounds of post-season football and then getting slaughtered every year isn't terribly appealing to anyone in NESCAC.  So, if NESCAC schools did start participating in post-season play, the pressure would mount to make more and bigger admissions concessions for football in order to field competitive teams -- and football already requires by far the most concessions of any sport given the size of the roster and the number of TIPS involved (I think 12 per year at most schools, whereas most sports get around 1-3).  And if 1-2 schools at the top starting doing so, you can be sure the coaches at the bottom would start agitating for more concessions, too.  That's at least the sort of thinking I've heard bandied about here in the past.  Football is uniquely situated given that around one out of every five varsity athletic tips is already allocated to football ... in other sports, NESCAC teams can compete at the highest level of D3 with only modest recruiting concessions.  In football, no chance ... so they choose instead to just compete with each other, limiting the pressure on admissions. 

quicksilver

The second phase of Bowdoin's Whittier Field renovation plans received final approval a few days ago from the town. The plan hinged on closing much of Pine Street to create the room necessary for the new building and some additional bleachers. The new 9000SF building will house locker rooms (even for the visiting team!!!), laundry facilities, medical facilities, and public restrooms. I imagine that the college will try to complete construction between now and the fall but the construction schedule is not clear . .

footballluv

Not at all interested in post season play in the NESCAC. 9 games are enough. Many choose the NESCAC because of its limits on the time for student athletes. News Flash All D3 football is not that good. An opportunity for decent ball players to continue to learn the lessons of the game while pursuing higher education. Important-yes, high level football-No.Am I proud of my son?-Yes. Some topics are discussed and debated here just because we can. I sure hope the NESCAC maintains its current structure around football.
Quote from: UfanBill on April 03, 2018, 05:03:09 PM
Quote from: PBPOP20 on April 03, 2018, 03:20:44 PM
Quote from: UfanBill on April 02, 2018, 09:12:48 PM
Look the NESCAC can do what they want as far as postseason play is concerned but blaming it on "safety"?...come on, that's BS. First only one NESCAC team would qualify for the D3 playoffs each season since without out of conference play, there would be no at large bid.  That's one team for one or two additional games because frankly, that's as far as you would go. You're not that good. Roster depth?...the NCAA holds roster size for playoff games at I believe 55 players suited per game. How is that a problem? As a longtime Union fan, an original NESCAC member, I can say that Union's participation in the D3 playoff is a privilege and a high achievement for the players the team and the school.  It's a thrill for the fans and parents. I'm grateful, as is the whole Union community, for the chance. It brings a lot of pride, spirit and recognition. It is my contention that NESCAC fans just want to find excuses for not participating because it hurts to not have a say in gaining the opportunity. I kind of feel sorry for you guys. ???

I went to Union, I follow Union... Dutchmen aren't that good either.  Even the Maine schools would give the Dutchmen a run for their money... top of the NESCAC would crush them.

The premise is about NESCAC schools choosing not to participate in post season play. I contend that the pluses far out weigh the minuses. Nobody's comparing Union with the NESCAC as far as how good Union is. For the last decade they would struggle to beat the top NESCAC teams. However, if you indeed  follow Union you would know that they have been in the NCAA D3 playoffs 10 times, going to the championship Stagg Bowl twice. They've also played in 8 post season ECAC games. Their post season record is a very respectful 16-12.   
When I stated the NESCAC is "not that good" I'm comparing it to the hierarchy of D3 football. The Mt. Unions, Wisconsin Whitewater, Mary Harden Baylors .. even the best of the East, Rowan, Ithaca, Delaware Valley, Wesley and currently Brockport ARE BETTER..No matter how good YOU think Trinity or Amherst is they WOULD NOT win a national championship. That's why I stated that they would probably only play one or two additional games in the post season. It wouldn't be a burden on the players or the school. Remember most high school teams now play 10+ games. As a Union fan I'm grateful that Union is not a NESCAC member and has that "carrot at the end of a stick" incentive, post season play.

DadintheStands

My son loves playing NESCAC football, loves the comraderie with his teammates, the hard work of practice and the NESCAC game day experience but is very content with a competitive 9 game schedule without playoffs. NESCAC players have far more on their minds than football. That's one of the top reasons  they chose to play in this conference.

formerd3db

A few comments from an "outsider" to this NESCAC board if I may! :) (I'm jumping in here in following my friend Mr. Ypsi!)

This topic has been discussed here in past years, is always a good and interesting debate and there is nothing wrong with that.  I do not believe that anyone here with a differing opinion is being negative toward those who have expressed their opinions of being content with the current policy of the NESCAC in electing to not participate in the post-season playoff structure (in reading the various posts, that has included those former players in the league and those who currently have sons playing at one of the member colleges).  My own opinion is that is fine that those players are content/in agreement with the policy.

I will say, though, that with regard to the other colleges/universities who do allow participation, most of those schools (yes, including those who are considered and/or considered in the "elite" academic tiers as generally accepted by many) and the players who are on their football teams certainly are no different than any of the NESCAC schools and the players who attend those in the reasons why they have chosen to play at this DIII division.  They, too, certainly have more on their minds than football, enjoy the competition at the collegiate level, including the camaraderie among teammates, and all those other attributes that one gains from football that will help them in life "when the cheering stops and the football career is done."  Moreover, the players, as well as the college/university presidents of those schools who participate in the playoffs, without question also place the same appropriate priorities of academics at this division.

So, if the NESCAC schools and players are content with the policy they have had in place for years, that is obviously their decision and, again, I am fine with that.  The only problem I have with it, however, or perhaps the better phrase is... what is confusing to me...is the premise that participating in the post-season playoffs in football would be an overemphasis.  I find that difficult to believe and, in fact, simply (yet respectfully) disagree with that premise. Allowing the other sports to participate in the post-season such as basketball, ice hockey and lacrosse (and this also applies to the Ivy League) is, in essence, a double standard. IMO, there is no way then that March Madness and the Road to the Frozen Four in Div III as well as in DI in which the Ivy League participates, would be any different in placing an overemphasis. Yet, of course, I do not believe that at all and am in favor of post season participation. (Perhaps it stems from the days of Robert Maynard Hutchins at the University of Chicago and others of that era who simply hated football and thought it to be a destructive tool in education.) At the same time though, I have no problem with the NESCAC having the non-participation policy and for those players who choose to go to the schools who are fine with that as well.

As I mentioned, this is always an interesting and passionate debate.  Thanks to everyone for sharing their own perspectives on this. 



       



 
"When the Great Scorer comes To mark against your name, He'll write not 'won' or 'lost', But how you played the game." - Grantland Rice

UfanBill

Those of you that regularly post on this board have apparently reconciled your consensus on post season play. I find it ironic that many of you did the same when the debate was about adding a ninth game. The conference came to the logical decision on the balanced schedule and now you're "all in"... great. I agree 100% with what formerd3db said and would just add that any NESCAC fan that thinks their member school academics are any more demanding than schools such as RPI or Union are just wrong. If you choose to not play against other D3 football teams whether in the post season or even regular season out of conference games, so be it. Just don't complain, as I've seen in the past, that your teams are not getting proper recognition in D3 polls or your players not being named to D3 All American teams.  You can have it your way, just not both ways.
"You don't stop playing because you got old, you got old because you stopped playing" 🏈🏀⚾🎿⛳

lumbercat

#13808
A few individuals have expressed opinions that they are fine with a 9 game season and no playoffs- thats fine but lets not run with that as the consensus. Most don't weigh in on the matter because anyone with NESCAC experience beyond the past year or 2 when their son entered a NESCAC school realize that it will never happen........ but that doesn't mean they wouldn't love to see it.

Take a poll at Trinity, Amherst, Tufts or Middlebury and others--- anyone associated with those programs would be chomping at the bit for a chance to compete with the top teams in D3. To say that a desire to compete at the highest level in championship competition compromises Johnny's academics or other interests is a joke.

PolarCat

Quote from: UfanBill on April 07, 2018, 05:23:58 PM
any NESCAC fan that thinks their member school academics are any more demanding than schools such as RPI or Union are just wrong.

Um, no.  You could certainly say that about D3 MIT.  But not RPI or Union.  For many of our sons, RPI and Union were safety schools.  You may not want to hear that, but it's true.  And we can back that up with empirical data.

In 2016, RPI's acceptance rate was 44.3%, while Union's was 36%.  The only NESCAC school that is in the same ballpark is Trinity at 33%.   Compare those rates to the rest of the NESCAC: Amherst 14%.  Bates 22.6%.  Bowdoin 14.3%.  Colby 17.5%.  Hamilton 26%.  Middlebury 16%.  Tufts 14%.  Wesleyan 17.7%.  Williams 16.8%.   

Which is not to say RPI and Union don't provide a wonderful education.  If our sons (and daughters) hadn't been accepted to the NESCAC, I am sure they would have had a great experience there.  But the facts are the facts.

Ralph Turner

#13810
Quote from: amh63 on April 02, 2018, 07:39:36 PM
Interesting topic coming to the news channel as March Madness concludes tonight.  Seems the U.S. Congress is getting involved...led in part by the Black Caucus...with how D1student athletes...are being exploited as the NCAA pulls in Billions of dollars!  Well, well things are getting interesting with big time sports :).
More than once we have seen news releases from D-1 and D2 schools where administrators have said that the requirement to pay scholarship athletes will prompt the institution to go to D3!

When Title IX will call for equal pay for male and female basketball players and a D-1 female gymnast "earns" as much as a Defensive Back, then it gets interesting.

Just once, I would love to hear the answer to the follow-up question to the congressman whether a D-1 female gymnast deserves "equal pay" to the male All-American basketball forward.

Jonny Utah

Quote from: PolarCat on April 08, 2018, 09:23:43 AM
Quote from: UfanBill on April 07, 2018, 05:23:58 PM
any NESCAC fan that thinks their member school academics are any more demanding than schools such as RPI or Union are just wrong.

Um, no.  You could certainly say that about D3 MIT.  But not RPI or Union.  For many of our sons, RPI and Union were safety schools.  You may not want to hear that, but it's true.  And we can back that up with empirical data.

In 2016, RPI's acceptance rate was 44.3%, while Union's was 36%.  The only NESCAC school that is in the same ballpark is Trinity at 33%.   Compare those rates to the rest of the NESCAC: Amherst 14%.  Bates 22.6%.  Bowdoin 14.3%.  Colby 17.5%.  Hamilton 26%.  Middlebury 16%.  Tufts 14%.  Wesleyan 17.7%.  Williams 16.8%.   

Which is not to say RPI and Union don't provide a wonderful education.  If our sons (and daughters) hadn't been accepted to the NESCAC, I am sure they would have had a great experience there.  But the facts are the facts.

He said demanding academics, not acceptance rate figures.  Huge difference.

PolarCat

He said their academics were AS demanding as NESCAC schools.  There's demanding an then there's demanding.

Unlike SAT scores, I know of no standardized measurement  metric.  Acceptance rate is about as close as it gets.  If there is some factual study or statistic showing parity, I have yet to see it.

But I have yet to meet a high school senior who had Union as their first choice, and Amherst, Williams and Bowdoin as their backups.  If you do a drive by on the NESCAC board and talk smack about the CAC, you can expect to get called out on your comments.

Jonny Utah

Quote from: PolarCat on April 09, 2018, 08:27:25 AM
He said their academics were AS demanding as NESCAC schools.  There's demanding an then there's demanding.

Unlike SAT scores, I know of no standardized measurement  metric.  Acceptance rate is about as close as it gets.  If there is some factual study or statistic showing parity, I have yet to see it.

But I have yet to meet a high school senior who had Union as their first choice, and Amherst, Williams and Bowdoin as their backups.  If you do a drive by on the NESCAC board and talk smack about the CAC, you can expect to get called out on your comments.

If you don't know any standardized measurement metric, why comment on it with some false equivalency?  Academic course loads vary greatly among subjects, programs and schools. 

UfanBill did the same thing.  No one here argued the reason Nescac teams don't go to the playoffs was because the schools were so much better and harder than the rest of d3 schools.  I think Nescac1 pretty much summed it up in regards to the focus on football if it were to compete in the playoffs.  It effects on admissions, financial aid, alumni pressure, coaching pressure, etc is something the Nescac just doesn't want to deal with.

ccd494

Quote from: Ralph Turner on April 08, 2018, 05:12:09 PMMore than once we have seen news releases from D-1 and D2 schools where administrators have said that the requirement to pay scholarship athletes will prompt the institution to go to D3!

When Title IX will call for equal pay for male and female basketball players and a D-1 female gymnast "earns" as much as a Defensive Back, then it gets interesting.

Just once, I would love to hear the answer to the follow-up question to the congressman whether a D-1 female gymnast deserves "equal pay" to the male All-American basketball forward.

This is a false equivalency, to me.  No one is saying you have to pay everyone the same amount.  Let each school offer whatever they think the market will bear.  If (for instance) Notre Dame wants to get snooty and not offer football players money because they think the players should value the education they are offering, that's fine.  They can just watch the players they covet go get paid at Michigan.  That's Notre Dame's choice.

If a small school wants to corner the market on women's gymnastics, and offers big money to women's gymnasts, great!

As far as Title IX, there are more ways to satisfy the requirements than matching dollar for dollar.  Even if you do want them to match dollar for dollar, well, Clemson spent $55,000,000 on a new practice facility complete with a barbershop, bowling alley and 50-foot indoor slide.  Maybe endow that money instead and pay your players for the next 100 years.  And hey, that's money already allocated to football under Title IX!