FB: North Coast Athletic Conference

Started by admin, August 16, 2005, 05:05:01 AM

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HCAlum86

I agree with Gebele. I'm probably just letting my eyes deceive me... I just never equated Witt and Wabash with Denison because even though the Big Red proved they could play with them, they were just smaller.

The more I read what you wrote the more I think you're right and I'm wrong.
July 13, 1904
Hiram College wins the inter-collegiate basketball world championship at the World's Fair Universal Exposition Olympic Games in St. Louis, Missouri. Final score: Hiram, 25; Latter Day Saints University, 18.

HansenRatings

Quote from: wally_wabash on August 23, 2017, 11:50:36 AM
Denison's 2016 didn't come out of nowhere.  The "rise" that you guys are talking about has been happening over the last 4-5 years under Coach Hatem.  2016 is when they definitively cleared the gap between Witt/Wabash and the rest of the league.  I know I'm playing revisionist here, but if Gebele was right in the last month of the season, they'd have (at least) split the Wabash/DePauw games and gone to the tournament.  I know the game in Greencastle got away from them, but that kind of thing can happen when the best player in the league is at 50%.  The Big Red are in the top tier of the league right now.  They have the best player in the league, they have staff continuity, and they have a zillion returning starters.  They have such a huge head start in 2017 on Witt (ton of lost starters, new OC/DC), Wabash (who's playing QB?), and DePauw (also QB and just massive attrition from graduation).  The other teams can catch up, but they all started way behind where Denison started two weeks ago. 

Been going on for longer than 4-5 years IMO. They've improved their final rating in my model every season since 2009, and their peak rating from 2015 was just as high as their peak from last season. To steal a term from UWO's Cerroni in kickoff, they're building a program, not just a team.

2009 - 0.1721
2010 - 0.2623
2011 - 0.4029
2012 - 0.4327
2013 - 0.4629
2014 - 0.5367
2015 - 0.5705
2016 - 0.6939
Follow me on Twitter. I post fun graphs sometimes. @LogHanRatings

wabashcpa

Quote from: Old Gold Tiger on August 22, 2017, 04:00:48 PM
The rise of the Denison program in 2016 was impressive.  Kickoff gives them high marks ahead of both Wabash and DePauw.  Gebele is a marquee athlete at QB, for sure.  But their line play and overall physicality leave me wondering if they can be as competitive as touted.  An OK DePauw defense looked like the '85 Bears against them last season.  Denison will need to be stronger up front to beat 'bash and DePauw.

I won't pretend to be objective, but I do think the DePauw team preview is a bit unenthusiastic even if their conference ranking is fair relative to returning talent.  Everyone will say DPU lost QB Hunt, who accounted for so much of the offense, including all five touchdowns and 400 yards of offense in the Bell game.  But the program grows stronger with many other players around the QB and a solid O line.  Some very good young QBs are in camp, among them Chase Andries and Cam Haynes, who may see increased action as the season progresses.

I think the Wabash guys would agree that a Wabash preview that doesn't mention DePauw obviously misses a high priority in that camp right now, not to mention some surprising scrutiny / criticism of the head coach voiced on this board following last year's outcome.  Somewhat similar to DePauw, the QB situation will be interesting to follow in C-ville even if 'bash is not quite as QB-centered as DePauw has been.

Witt is the clear favorite.  No surprise there.

You are going to like Andries, kid is just a solid athlete, should do good things over his career.  Just based on pedigree I am interested in O'Connor for Wabash.

smedindy

I think DPU's muted preview in Kickoff is due to a wait-and-see attitude about them. Wabash has proven that they can reload time over time and compete for championships, or at least be very competitive.

The last time the New Tigers rebuilt, they cratered (and some of that was for reasons, of course, that were somewhat outside of football on the field). And with Denison being a sure-fire threat along with the LG's and the Old Tigers, I think they may be punching in there with the middle, hoping to steal a game.

DPU3619

Quote from: wabashcpa on August 24, 2017, 04:11:59 PM
You are going to like Andries, kid is just a solid athlete, should do good things over his career.  Just based on pedigree I am interested in O'Connor for Wabash.

Coached against him twice. Kid is more than an solid athlete. He's incredible. Broke something like 50 tackles combined in the two games he played against my former team.

wally_wabash

I've posted the week 1 games for NCAC Pick 'Em for those that want to play this year. 

Allegheny/Thiel is a Thursday night game - you've been warned.   :)
"Nothing in the world is more expensive than free."- The Deacon of HBO's The Wire

Li'l Giant

Did Wabash do a scrimmage? Does anyone know?
"I believe in God and I believe I'm gonna go to Heaven, but if something goes wrong and I end up in Hell, I know it's gonna be me and a bunch of D3 officials."---Erik Raeburn

Quote from: sigma one on October 11, 2015, 10:46:46 AMI don't drink with the enemy, and I don't drink lattes at all, with anyone.

GrizFan

Anyone attend the DePauw - Franklin scrimmage?  If so, how did the two teams look?

wally_wabash

Quote from: Old Gold Tiger on August 22, 2017, 04:00:48 PM
I think the Wabash guys would agree that a Wabash preview that doesn't mention DePauw obviously misses a high priority in that camp right now, not to mention some surprising scrutiny / criticism of the head coach voiced on this board following last year's outcome.  Somewhat similar to DePauw, the QB situation will be interesting to follow in C-ville even if 'bash is not quite as QB-centered as DePauw has been.

I've had some time to let this marinate.  First, thanks for buying Kickoff and supporting the site! 

Most of us that have been around the rivalry as long as I have (21 years now for me) and longer for many that read and post here, no doubt have heard a million times in a million different ways that you can go 1-9 and as long as that one is the Monon Bell, it was a good season.  I've always thought that was a bit overstated- but the gist is that the whole season more or less hinges on the outcome of that one game.  Then (and this is where I'm speaking only for myself here...others may see it differently), between 2001 and 2002 everything changed.  CC came in, snapped a long Bell losing streak in his first season, but didn't stop there.  He won 19 games in a row over those two seasons and got stopped by Mount Union in the 2002 quarterfinals.   The change was that I think eyes were opened to a whole fun world of D-III football that happens after the Monon Bell Classic.  Conference championships are fun.  Playoffs are fun.  The goal (again, my POV here) was to figure out how to beat Mount Union and Whitewater and St. Thomas and teams that thrive beyond the second round of the tournament.  If those are the targets- and for a long time they have been- beating DePauw takes care of itself.  And the results bear that out with a 12-4 Wabash advantage in the series since the Creighton hire. 

I hope that we don't return to that 20 years old platitude that beating DePauw is the only thing that matters.  I think that's a recipe that sets Wabash way behind in the NCAC title chase.  Beating DePauw is important, but there's more to accomplish.  Setting the bar higher than just DePauw has been a 16-year formula for program success and I hope the LGs keep the bar set extremely high. 
"Nothing in the world is more expensive than free."- The Deacon of HBO's The Wire

sigma one

Wally, et al:  strongly agree. I would argue that beating Witt is now the key.  I'll continue to acknowledge that a Monon Bell victory is a measure of season success for many fans.  As for the coaches and the team, I'm sure that winning the bell Game is a good way to finish and a point of pride. .  But if the LGs beat Witt, it will almost always follow that they will beat DPU.  Lose to Witt and the Bell Game becomes even more crucial, but only as a season saver.  Lose to Witt and the playoffs almost always disappear. 
     Losing to the new tigers last year after losing to the old tigers was almost too much to bear.  Does it now make sense to say the LGs can lose to one but not to both as a signal of a successful year?
       

Li'l Giant

Quote from: wally_wabash on August 30, 2017, 09:47:46 AM
Quote from: Old Gold Tiger on August 22, 2017, 04:00:48 PM
I think the Wabash guys would agree that a Wabash preview that doesn't mention DePauw obviously misses a high priority in that camp right now, not to mention some surprising scrutiny / criticism of the head coach voiced on this board following last year's outcome.  Somewhat similar to DePauw, the QB situation will be interesting to follow in C-ville even if 'bash is not quite as QB-centered as DePauw has been.

I've had some time to let this marinate.  First, thanks for buying Kickoff and supporting the site! 

Most of us that have been around the rivalry as long as I have (21 years now for me) and longer for many that read and post here, no doubt have heard a million times in a million different ways that you can go 1-9 and as long as that one is the Monon Bell, it was a good season.  I've always thought that was a bit overstated- but the gist is that the whole season more or less hinges on the outcome of that one game.  Then (and this is where I'm speaking only for myself here...others may see it differently), between 2001 and 2002 everything changed.  CC came in, snapped a long Bell losing streak in his first season, but didn't stop there.  He won 19 games in a row over those two seasons and got stopped by Mount Union in the 2002 quarterfinals.   The change was that I think eyes were opened to a whole fun world of D-III football that happens after the Monon Bell Classic.  Conference championships are fun.  Playoffs are fun.  The goal (again, my POV here) was to figure out how to beat Mount Union and Whitewater and St. Thomas and teams that thrive beyond the second round of the tournament.  If those are the targets- and for a long time they have been- beating DePauw takes care of itself.  And the results bear that out with a 12-4 Wabash advantage in the series since the Creighton hire. 

I hope that we don't return to that 20 years old platitude that beating DePauw is the only thing that matters.  I think that's a recipe that sets Wabash way behind in the NCAC title chase.  Beating DePauw is important, but there's more to accomplish.  Setting the bar higher than just DePauw has been a 16-year formula for program success and I hope the LGs keep the bar set extremely high.

"I believe in God and I believe I'm gonna go to Heaven, but if something goes wrong and I end up in Hell, I know it's gonna be me and a bunch of D3 officials."---Erik Raeburn

Quote from: sigma one on October 11, 2015, 10:46:46 AMI don't drink with the enemy, and I don't drink lattes at all, with anyone.

smedindy

Quote from: sigma one on August 30, 2017, 10:35:18 AM
Wally, et al:  strongly agree. I would argue that beating Witt is now the key.  I'll continue to acknowledge that a Monon Bell victory is a measure of season success for many fans.  As for the coaches and the team, I'm sure that winning the bell Game is a good way to finish and a point of pride. .  But if the LGs beat Witt, it will almost always follow that they will beat DPU.  Lose to Witt and the Bell Game becomes even more crucial, but only as a season saver.  Lose to Witt and the playoffs almost always disappear. 
     Losing to the new tigers last year after losing to the old tigers was almost too much to bear.  Does it now make sense to say the LGs can lose to one but not to both as a signal of a successful year?
     

That was a gut punch, Sigma. Almost as bad as losing my senior year's Bell Game and playoff bid (1987, sigh...) after denying the New Tigers the playoffs two years in a row.

And now, Denison is a must-play-well-to-win as well. The LGs could have a fine team and go 8-2 and still beat DPU. But Witt is the conference standard, and the Old Tigers are generating a lot of hatred among LG faithful now.

I'm glad the NCAC is rising up, but now there's more anxiety on any given Saturday, and not just 2-3 times a year.

HCAlum86

Quote from: smedindy on August 30, 2017, 01:04:13 PM
Quote from: sigma one on August 30, 2017, 10:35:18 AM
Wally, et al:  strongly agree. I would argue that beating Witt is now the key.  I'll continue to acknowledge that a Monon Bell victory is a measure of season success for many fans.  As for the coaches and the team, I'm sure that winning the bell Game is a good way to finish and a point of pride. .  But if the LGs beat Witt, it will almost always follow that they will beat DPU.  Lose to Witt and the Bell Game becomes even more crucial, but only as a season saver.  Lose to Witt and the playoffs almost always disappear. 
     Losing to the new tigers last year after losing to the old tigers was almost too much to bear.  Does it now make sense to say the LGs can lose to one but not to both as a signal of a successful year?
     

That was a gut punch, Sigma. Almost as bad as losing my senior year's Bell Game and playoff bid (1987, sigh...) after denying the New Tigers the playoffs two years in a row.

And now, Denison is a must-play-well-to-win as well. The LGs could have a fine team and go 8-2 and still beat DPU. But Witt is the conference standard, and the Old Tigers are generating a lot of hatred among LG faithful now.

I'm glad the NCAC is rising up, but now there's more anxiety on any given Saturday, and not just 2-3 times a year.

Among Witt and Wabash, the fan bases are not even comparable - in my experience. I have always been treated well when seeing a game in Cville and usually opine that Wabash's teams play the game hard, but within the gridiron. I have not had similar experiences with the Witt faithful. It's a shame, as I am sure there are wonderful Witt fans who are terrific human beings, just has not been my experience.
July 13, 1904
Hiram College wins the inter-collegiate basketball world championship at the World's Fair Universal Exposition Olympic Games in St. Louis, Missouri. Final score: Hiram, 25; Latter Day Saints University, 18.

BashDad

Quote from: wally_wabash on August 30, 2017, 09:47:46 AM
Quote from: Old Gold Tiger on August 22, 2017, 04:00:48 PM
I think the Wabash guys would agree that a Wabash preview that doesn't mention DePauw obviously misses a high priority in that camp right now, not to mention some surprising scrutiny / criticism of the head coach voiced on this board following last year's outcome.  Somewhat similar to DePauw, the QB situation will be interesting to follow in C-ville even if 'bash is not quite as QB-centered as DePauw has been.

I've had some time to let this marinate.  First, thanks for buying Kickoff and supporting the site! 

Most of us that have been around the rivalry as long as I have (21 years now for me) and longer for many that read and post here, no doubt have heard a million times in a million different ways that you can go 1-9 and as long as that one is the Monon Bell, it was a good season.  I've always thought that was a bit overstated- but the gist is that the whole season more or less hinges on the outcome of that one game.  Then (and this is where I'm speaking only for myself here...others may see it differently), between 2001 and 2002 everything changed.  CC came in, snapped a long Bell losing streak in his first season, but didn't stop there.  He won 19 games in a row over those two seasons and got stopped by Mount Union in the 2002 quarterfinals.   The change was that I think eyes were opened to a whole fun world of D-III football that happens after the Monon Bell Classic.  Conference championships are fun.  Playoffs are fun.  The goal (again, my POV here) was to figure out how to beat Mount Union and Whitewater and St. Thomas and teams that thrive beyond the second round of the tournament.  If those are the targets- and for a long time they have been- beating DePauw takes care of itself.  And the results bear that out with a 12-4 Wabash advantage in the series since the Creighton hire. 

I hope that we don't return to that 20 years old platitude that beating DePauw is the only thing that matters.  I think that's a recipe that sets Wabash way behind in the NCAC title chase.  Beating DePauw is important, but there's more to accomplish.  Setting the bar higher than just DePauw has been a 16-year formula for program success and I hope the LGs keep the bar set extremely high.

A very emphatic co-sign. Carry on.

wally_wabash

Observations after a quick perusal of the two-deep for Saturday...

- SO Wes Murphy is at the top of the QB depth chart.  He's a big kid, makes a lot of good throws.  It's a big spot making his first start, but I'm excited to see what he can do.  I think he'll be really good. 

- No Penola anywhere on the depth chart.  Hoping for clerical error or that he'll be fine and back in the lineup very soon. 

- A ton (almost literally) of size on the OL.  Kind of jumps off the page at you, really.  Leath and McAtee are all-league returning starters so I think that group is solid.  In front of a guy making his first start, I hope this group is ready to go.  Protect Wes! 

- Albion going with a freshman starting QB.  On a week where I'm not totally sure what Wabash is going to look like, I like seeing a green QB on the other side.  On the other hand, the freshman appears to have beaten out an incumbent starter, so the kid is probably no slouch.  But still...freshman QBs taking their first snaps are freshman QBs taking their first snaps.  No matter how good a player is going to be eventually, there's really no way to skip that step. 

Like I said, I have no idea what to expect this weekend.  I hope the team gets a big win for the seniors here on Senior Day, irons out those first week kinks, and sets sail for NCAC play in two weeks.  WAF!
"Nothing in the world is more expensive than free."- The Deacon of HBO's The Wire