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Post Patterns (Division III football) => East Region football => Topic started by: admin on August 16, 2005, 04:58:09 am

Title: FB: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: admin on August 16, 2005, 04:58:09 am
This is the new home of NESCAC discussion. Welcome aboard, everyone.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bantom1 on August 16, 2005, 10:46:51 am
Lets get started by a pre season poll

          1) Trinity      deep and motivated
          2) Colby       wish they had a shot at Trinity
          3) Amherst   need contributiond from talented Frosh
          4) Williams   could surprise, top notch coaches
          5) Wesleyan  rebuilding
          6) Bates        6 through 10  toss up
          7) Tufts
          8) Hamilton 
          9) Bowdoin
         10) Middlebury

     Little Three Champ    Amherst  (upset @ Williams)
     Maine Champ            Colby   
 

 


Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: DanGenck on August 16, 2005, 12:55:20 pm
Middlebury in last place? Has that ever happened in the NESCAC?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on August 16, 2005, 01:32:04 pm
Is Colby really gonna be that good?  And do you really think they'll beat Amherst and Williams?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bantom1 on August 16, 2005, 02:30:44 pm
Remember 6 through 10 is a toss up actually Middlebury @ 6.

As for Colby defence will carry them a long way

I hear Williams and Amherst have some very talented freshman coming in but they are freshman. If they develop quickly then they could give Colby trouble.  My source said Trinity was very interested in the freshman that decided on Williams and Amherst. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: toad22 on August 16, 2005, 03:25:42 pm
Trinity has to have the #1 rank going in - a heavy favorite to win the regular season & the playoffs. Amherst will be very strong, they always are. Bates should be very good again this year. Williams is way down, probably as low as they have been in 20 years. Base on what I saw last year, nobody else is likely to step out of the pack. It looks like a fairly weak league (compared to most of the last 10 years) again this year.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 16, 2005, 03:29:08 pm
Playoffs? PLAYoffs?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on August 16, 2005, 04:39:55 pm
Playoffs? Playoffs? We don't have to show you no stinkin'  playoffs.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on August 16, 2005, 05:49:48 pm
I'm gonna rank Tufts ahead of Wesleyan and Bates only because of their defense.  Lost only 2 starters from one of the better defenses in NESCAC last year.  The problem is....can they SCORE!  Defense allowed 139 points last year while the offense put up only 75.  BTW, Pat C......nice job on the new Post Patterns.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: nescac1 on August 16, 2005, 10:08:21 pm
Toad, what makes you say Williams will be down and that Amherst is very strong?  Williams and Amherst were basically even last year -- with Amherst barely beating Williams, at Amherst, and earning the same record -- and Amherst suffered far more losses than Williams.  Last year was really the year the Ephs were supposed to be down, losing a stellar Class of 2004 and Coach Farley and with very few seniors, and they played pretty well. 

Williams returns basically its entire offensive line and could have the top line in the league, its entire receiving corps, which has size and talent and I think will perform far better this year, and two QB's who were very young and raw last year.  The offense was really simple last year, given the inexperience at all of the skill positions, and I think they will be a lot more explosive this season.  I believe Williams should start Pat Lucey at QB, who looked really good when he played last year, not a huge arm but accurate and a very effective runner.    Gleason can also run a little and has a big arm, but needs to become more consistent and more accurate down the field. 

Crawley is a huge loss at TB, but the Ephs have tons of options to replace him -- Catelli, Flynn (who could be very explosive), Weeks, and a highly regarded frosh in Brian Morrissey.  They should, as a group, come close to Crawley's production, especially with a lot more experience at offensive line.  Ephs do have some questions in the defensive front seven, but they have three d-lineman returning who started at times, and Ferson has all-league potential at LB.  Plus, the Ephs clearly have the top defensive backfield in Nescac with the top six d-backs, including two all-leaguers, returning.  The kicking game should be better as well. The only real question is up the middle at defensive tackle and middle linebacker.

Amherst, meanwhile, lost the league player of the year in Ladd, his top backup, their top receiver / returner, their QB, and their Center.  That is a ton of losses to their offense.  Amherst D should once again be great, but they did graduate some good LB's and most of the defensive backfield, so they could be susceptible to the pass. 

I think Colby, Amherst, and Williams will all be pretty equal, but I think, at least on paper, Amherst has the least talented group of upper-classman among those three teams. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: AthleticSupporter on August 17, 2005, 05:18:07 pm
so who is replacing those postions at Amherst, do you know? Your argument seems to be that Williams will be better because of their replacements.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: weightman on August 17, 2005, 07:13:39 pm
Nescac1 you're obviously a Willaims supporter.  If you want to watch Morrissey carry the football, you better make sure to attend the Wms/Amherst JV game.  Or maybe Hamilton if they get up 6 touchdowns.  Too many good RBs with seniority ahead of him.  Morrissey also wants to play lacrosse, a sport where theyll want him to be lean strong.  He'll lose weight for lacrosse.    And talking lines, Amherst D line is losing maybe one senior, who was hurt much of last year.  Their D line, LB core and secondary all have rising sophs and Jrs. who will be contributing big time and are probably lifting as we write.  And as for best O line in league, you have apparently been missing the Williams/Trinity games.  Trinity's smallest starter is over 270, and theyre undefeated two years running.   
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on August 17, 2005, 11:41:48 pm
To be fair, Trinity did graduate 4 starters on the O Line, their center is coming back and he is a helluva player.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: nescac1 on August 18, 2005, 06:53:13 am
First, I'm not saying that Amherst will necessarily be worse than Williams.  Just saying that I don't think Amherst is clearly strong while Williams is "down" in light of their relative losses.  Ladd and Wagstaff, in particular, have both killed the Nescac for four years and will be tough to replace. But Amherst had great depth and is always well-coached. 

Amherst will likely play Kehoe at QB, who looked very good when he played in the past, I think he is as talented at Mosely, just not as experienced.  They have lots of good, fast RB's, but most are on the smaller side, rather than physical guys like Ladd and Montieth, so they might have trouble wearing down the opposition the way they have the past few years.  As I said, Amherst looks strong on defense, particularly up front, but losing 3 strong DB starters is tough.

As for the Eph's O-line, Trinity clearly had the best line in the conference last year, but Williams was second -- able to establish a great running game despite the fact that they played very conservatively and didn't have much of a passing game to keep defenses honest.  Considering who Williams returns, this should be a stellar unit.  But there is no doubt that Trinity is still the dominant team in the leage in terms of overall talent -- Trinity's third string QB would probably start at almost any other NESCAC school, and their defensive line and LB's in particular are ridiculously stacked. 

Colby, with Stepka returning, is definitely not to be overlooked.  They lost a few good defensive players, but have lots of talent returning from that unit. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: AthleticSupporter on August 18, 2005, 01:03:18 pm
Weightman, you sound very knowledgable, what school do you support?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Knightstalker on August 18, 2005, 02:03:52 pm
Here is a link to a story about Ethan Brooks who is now on the Jets roster.
http://www.nj.com/sports/ledger/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/1124345583213730.xml&coll=1
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on August 18, 2005, 04:39:52 pm
Bantom1, i don't think Colby should be all that upset to have Trinity off the schedule this year... In fact they're probably thrilled, it's the only oportunity a NESCAC team has for an undefeated season this year (other than Trinity of course).  The Bantams lost the majority of their O-line but once again their defense will be dominant.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: weightman on August 19, 2005, 12:07:35 am
I have a relative who is a soph on the Amherst team and I have another relative who may be attending Williams next year.  I have tremendous respect for basically all the NESCAC schools and their academics.  But I'm partial to Amherst and Williams and their wonderful rivalry.  Both schools respect each other so much.  I'm also familiar with the league in football from recruiting weekends and from watching several games last year.  I agree that Colby is gonna be tough for everyone.  What a beautiful school.   Tufts beat Amherst last year.  Bowdoin will have a losing record, but will no longer be a doormat.  Middlebury is always competitive.  Another spectacular school.  Bates and Wesleyan I don't know how they'll be, but I get the imression that there is a lot more balance in the league now.  And the level of play is increasing.  Some of that likely has to do with the fact that the Ivies now only have 30 football slots per team instead of 35.  This means more good players will come to NESCAC.  Trinity is still the monster of the league, but they have a bit of an advantage in that under the NESCAC rules on tips, Trinity can take kids with lower SATs, how low the school can go is a function of the schools SAT average for the student body.  The Bantams can therefore recruit kids that Wms, Amherst and Bowdoin can't.  That is a fact.   Plus the kids that get recruited at Trinity, Trinity doesn't have to compete with the Ivies for those kids, whereas Wms, Amherst and Bowdoin lose kids to Harvard, Yale and Princeton, and have to compete to get kids from  Dartmouth and the others.   But I'm not complaining.  the Amherst boys welcome the opportunity to play a great football team like trinity.  That's what sports are about.  I'm looking forward to this years football season, my relative has put on 17 pounds of muscle since freshman year, and if he stays healthy, could get some significant playing time as a soph.  We'll see.   As for Morrissey, the fact is that freshmen seldom get significant playing time.  They're just not strong enough.  An exception was Guaraglia, who started at left tackle for the Jeffs from the second game.  I would bet that Weeks will see time at RB for Wms before Morrissey.  Weeks was a highly regarded RB in HS and is very fast.  The kids that work hard in practice and do their lifting in the summers will get their day.  Other kids go to college and find beer, and girls, and they don't want to lift, and their interest falls off.  There's a lot of attrition in D3, since there are no scholarships holding you in the programs.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on August 19, 2005, 01:29:55 pm
I agree that Trinity can get players accepted that Williams and Amherst cannot.  However, The fact that Williams and Amherst have a better academic reputation is also a huge recruiting obstacle for Trinity.  SAT scores have nothing to do with how good a football player is.  And Trinity loses a large number of recruits every year who are accademically eligible for any NESCAC school, but attent Williams and Amherst because of their reputation. 

I  believe Trinity has made more of a commitment to recuriting nationally (something Williams and Amherst have been doing for years) As opposed to relying so heavily on players from CT and especially eastern MA.  This, combined with a superior off-season weightlifting and conditioning program and excellent coaching is what has separated them from the rest of the NESCAC. 

As far as a more ballanced league, nothing could be further from the truth.  Maybe the middle of the pack teams (Colby, Williams, Amherst, Tufts etc.) are comparable in tallent, but the bottom tier teams (Hamilton, Bates, Bowdoin) remain doormats, while Trinity has won 22 games in a row by an average score of 35-4!  Ballance is hardly the word to describe the current state of NESCAC football.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on August 19, 2005, 06:17:06 pm
Trinity actually lost a Lacrosse recruit to Harvard this year, and a basketball recruit to Yale two years ago.  Saying they don't compete with the Ivy League is a false statement.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on August 19, 2005, 06:24:43 pm
Right, it seems it would be more accurate to say that they lose to the Ivy League rather than compete with them.  :)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on August 20, 2005, 04:19:46 pm
But Trinity did get a football player from Cornell a few years back.  So we don't always lose.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: grady little on August 22, 2005, 12:22:51 pm
Bowdoin: NO WORSE THAN 5-3 this year> I follow New England football pretty close and they had a terrific recruiting class in 04. what are your thoughts weightman.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: weightman on August 22, 2005, 01:46:35 pm
grady:  I'll tell you this, I like Coach Caputi.  He's a tough kid but still nice.  My dad had an army buddy in Leominster, and if I remember correctly, Caputi was a hard nosed quarterback for their arch rival Fitchburg HS.   Bowdoin played Amherst and several other teams VERY TOUGH last year.   They came back from something like three touchdowns down vs Amherst to force overtime and had at least two real good chances to win the game, missed field goal and intercepted pass in the end zone.  Amherst will be one team that won't take them lightly this year.  They'll definitely win a couple games and maybe upset one or two others.   I think they're much improved, but Coach Caputi has to talk with admissions and see if he can get just a little more slack out of them.  I'm sure Bowdoin would be psyched for a 5-3.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on August 22, 2005, 02:08:25 pm
I'll admit I laughed when I first read it, but with Williams off the schedule this year it's true... Bowdoin may actually have a legit shot at 5-3.  Especially if they can win two (or maybe just one) of their first 3 games (Middlebury, Amherst, Tufts) because they should handle Hamilton, Wesleyan and Bates.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bantom1 on August 22, 2005, 03:33:43 pm
In talking with some folks at Trinity they mentioned they were very interested in a RB/WR that selected Williams. It was not Morressey. Williams could have two new Freshman RB's. The staff is very plesed with their incoming group and are counting on defence to lead the way this season. The O line replacements will be key but they won't need many ponits to remain undefeated as the defence is clearly tops in the league 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: grady little on August 22, 2005, 09:03:22 pm
Hey guys we got this going pretty good. The trouble is the NESCAC doesn't get started until mid Sept. But I know that there was about  8 frosh last year at Bowdoin that got playing time and that will be beneficial this year. Also I know some of the dads of these kids and it's good heritage. Some of them were very good D1aa  players years ago. These kids have good work ethic.
The league seems to  changing with us talking about Bowdoin and Colby..........
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on August 23, 2005, 12:14:34 am
grady: NESCAC doesn't get started until 9/24 - later than any other conference.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on August 23, 2005, 03:11:34 pm
Just curious if people had any opinions on how Trinity (or any NESCAC school) would fair in the DIII playoffs.  Any thoughts?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: weightman on August 23, 2005, 04:12:59 pm
Bantom, you might be interested to know that Trinity has a new assistant coach I have some familiarity with.  His name is Lou Acquarulo and he is coming from the defensive coordinator position at University of Rochester.  I think he's going to be linebackers and special teams coach at Trinity, but I'm sure he'll be involved with their weight training program as well.  If you saw him you'd know why,  He's a wide body.  And a good recruiter.  Made the recruits at U of R feel comfortable, like football there would be fun.  Counterbalanced the head coach, who was in the more tightly wound, small athlete mode.  Tthink he was a former player under coach Priore, or coached with him at UPenn or something.  Should be a good fit.  I know he's big on lifting.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: gordonmann on August 23, 2005, 05:11:32 pm
Trin:

We've thought a fair amount about how Trinity compares to others outside the NESCAC.

You can check out where we rank them among all the other 230 Division III teams in the just-published Kickoff Special.

Check it out at http://www.d3football.com/kickoff/
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on August 23, 2005, 08:56:23 pm
Trin8-0: For NESCAC colleges vs. the rest of DIII see Kickoff 2005 rankings of all 231 DIII teams.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on August 25, 2005, 11:13:02 am
I would compare Trinity to Johns Hopkins of a few years back.  Trinity's offense was a little bit better, but that just might be b/c of the opponents they faced.  Hopkins' defense was very impressive also....I believe in 2001 they didn't give up a passing touchdown all season.  But Hopkins did not even make the playoffs that year, so it would be interesting to see how the Bants would do in a conference like that.  I think Priore and the staff would be up for the challenge though.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: GoDips71 on August 25, 2005, 05:31:06 pm
Interesting analogy of Trinity and Hopkins...but it always difficult to compare without common opponents. That said, I think you are right in that Trinity would be the type of school that would fit well in the Centennial Conference (obvious logistical issues aside) - with solid academics and a commitment to its football program. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on August 25, 2005, 09:44:06 pm
I saw my fair share of Blue Jay games, and being at Trin I didn't miss a home game.  With the exception of Lacrosse for Trin, and Ice Hockey and Squash for JHU their athletic programs are very similar.  Academically JHU is a lil bit better, and if ur not at WaWa for JHU then the party scene is much better at Camp Trin Trin
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on August 29, 2005, 09:18:05 am
This year the NESCAC is scheduling their scrimmages against teams that are geographically closer to each other (i.e. Hamilton/Middlebury, Amherst/Williams). In  past years teams would play the opponent who was off of the schedule that year.  This preseason Trinity will scrimmage Wesleyan while Colby scrimmages Bates.  Though it's only a scrimmage and doesn't count for anything, it would have been interesting to see how Colby (arguably the 2nd best team in the NESCAC this year) would handle themselves against Trinity.  Should the Mules and Bantams both finish the year undefeated, I'm sure there will be plenty of debating about what would have happend in a head-to-head game.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: waggle09 on August 29, 2005, 10:49:26 am
Why is everyone so high on Colby? Years past it's been Amherst, Williams and Trinity. Are there a lot of returning players? This league seems to have alot more parity than ever before......
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: weightman on August 29, 2005, 12:19:16 pm
Go to Colby dot edu, click on athletics, then team sports, then football, then click on their 2005 preview.  They sound awesome.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: gordonmann on August 29, 2005, 12:29:39 pm
Or you can get Colby's preview off our site at http://www.d3football.com/preview.php

It's posted along with submissions from Hamilton, Trinity (Conn.), and Wesleyan.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on August 29, 2005, 03:24:56 pm
I was directed to this site not to long ago, and have been following all the commentary so far.  Having played at Trinity and experienced the sucess that comes with hard work, excellent coaching, outstanding talent from all over the nation...and some highly touted transfers from D1 schools, it is clear that Trinity is the best team in the NESCAC, and a top 25 team in the country.  With that said, I can not wait for the season to start.  I think this year will be extremely competative, with several schools battling for the #2 spot this year.  Williams, Amherst, Colby, and yes....even Bowdoin, could have an equal shot.  I will be at the Williams/Trinity game to watch Trinity break the league record for consecutive wins...which by the way is held by Williams.  Anybody feel the same as I do?  Sounds like Trin8-0 is thinkin the same as I am...let me know.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: ephoops on August 29, 2005, 10:16:33 pm
Big advantage for Colby this year is that they play both Williams and Amherst at home.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: weightman on August 30, 2005, 12:30:35 pm
Not having to play Trinity doesn't hurt either!!!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on August 31, 2005, 11:04:17 am
I've heard rumors the that Chuck Priore, the head coach at Trinity, has recieved a lot of interest from some Div 1AA schools. If the Bantams have another undefeated season does anyone think he'll stick around?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on August 31, 2005, 12:26:31 pm
Trin: If so, then it depends. What is it that he would be requiring? More money? More prestige? Less work or pressure? Equal or more stability? Geography? A special situation? All of the foregoing? Would the University of Michigan do it? Vanderbilt? Yale? UMass? North Dakota? Amherst? Chicago? Pomona? Oberlin? Not that necessarily any of those would be open or offered.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on August 31, 2005, 01:47:08 pm
Before coming to Trinity, Priore was a very successful O-coordinator at UPenn.  I'm sure he'd take an Ivy job if offered.  I've also heard his name mentioned linked to the Hofstra job that might be opening up.  I'm not sure what his salary requirements would be, but I'd assume he would want to stay in the Northeast.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on August 31, 2005, 04:13:55 pm
Trin: He'd leap at any head coching job in the Ivy League or the head coaching job at Hofstra? Any Atlantic 10 head coaching job so long as it is in New England or New York? Pennsylvania?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on August 31, 2005, 04:57:52 pm
No one knows what job Priore would take, if any... I was just curious to see if anyone had any opinions or had heard of any posibilities that would lure him away from Trinity.  I for one, would like to see him stay and amass career totals similar to (or greater than) Trinity's two other historic coaches, Dan Jesse and Don Miller.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on August 31, 2005, 06:21:14 pm
I heard he was up for the Holy Cross job last year
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 01, 2005, 01:00:17 am
One might think that a NESCAC background might be a natural, even desirable, for an Ivy League HFC. Although I may be wrong, I believe that Jack Siedlecki, Yale's  HFC, is the only current Ivy League HFC with any background as a NESCAC player, assistant coach or head coach.  His HFC record at Yale is 27-23 and at Amherst was 20-11-1. His 4 years as HFC at Amherst was his sole term in NESCAC. He also had a 36-11-1 record as HFC at WPI.  What past Ivy League HFCs had backgrounds as assistant coaches or head coaches for current NESCAC colleges, whether or not at the time of holding the coaching position the college belonged to NESCAC?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 01, 2005, 11:57:29 am
Not sure about past Head Ivy coaches but here a few current Ivy assistant coaches with NESCAC ties.

Shawn Daignault (Middlebury ’95 - Also coached at Trinity)  Cornerbacks : Penn
Kevin Doherty (Tufts '87)  Defensive Coordinator: Harvard
Eric Westerfield (Hamilton '92)  Defensive Line: Harvard
Pat Madden (Wesleyan '99)  Defensive Backs: Colombia
Sean Ryan (Hamilton '94)  Quarterbacks: Colombia
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 01, 2005, 03:33:38 pm
Wow, thats a tough question to ask Trin8-0.  I think that Priore has accomplished what he was trying to do last year, but probably feels committed to some of the outstanding atheletes that he recruited from some larger D1 programs and great highschools.  If the right job came around..ie...more money, and more publicity, he would take the job in a heart beat.  I think the publicity factor would play a large part, not only for his success, but also for which ever program he became involved with.  He loves the noteriety.....he is ultra-competative and enjoys being in the top of his peer class (other coaches).  I also think priore would stay if he could go to the D3 playoffs, see what Linfield, Mount Union, and the rest are  really all about.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 01, 2005, 03:56:21 pm
dirty: In my judgment the likelihood of NESCAC choosing to have a representative go to the playoffs in the foreseesble future is nil. Of course Trinity could pull out of NESCAC altogether or possibly only for football and then potentially qualify for the playoffs. I don't know what Trinity's attitude might be toward such an action by it.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 01, 2005, 04:18:16 pm
Frank, I agree... I believe the NESCAC will continue it's stuborn and pointless policy of depriving football from the opportunity that everyother NESCAC sport enjoys, the chance to compete with the top programs in the nation.  Though I would hate to see Trinity pull-out of the NESCAC, even if it were just for football (I don't see any chance in either scenario) it is still frustrating to see NESCAC teams in other sports do very well on the national stage while the dominant football teams in the conference are banned from NCAA tournament play by its own league because of what is a simply ridiculous policy.  A more likely scenario would be expanding the season to 9 games so that all NESCAC teams would play eachother.  This might be a small step, but it would be a step in the right direction.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 01, 2005, 06:32:18 pm
Why not expand to 10 games - 9 in the conference and one out of the conference?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 01, 2005, 06:43:00 pm
Pat: The gods are causing my karma to grow without my knowing what I have done to deserve it.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 02, 2005, 08:59:48 am
10 games would be an ideal scenario if the NESCAC continues it's ban of football participating in the NCAA tournament.  I know that Trinity would love a shot at Springfield and/or Curry in order to show who has the best division III football team in New England.  I think Williams, Amherst and Colby would have a good shot at them as well. Also, a match-up between a NESCAC school and a nonconference opponent would at least give us some way to gauge how NESCAC would measure-up against the top teams in the nation.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 02, 2005, 09:02:13 am
How about a 10th game against Mt. Union?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 02, 2005, 01:51:34 pm
Now that would be a match-up that would really show us how the NESCAC would compete against the best in Div III. 

If Trinity gets to 54 wins (which would take 4 more undefeated season under the current 8 game season format), maybe they could play Mount Union in week 1 for a shot at breaking the all-time, all-division college football win streak.

(Though I may be getting just a little bit ahead of myself.  For now I'll just take a week 2 win over Williams). 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: 2sportdevil on September 02, 2005, 04:49:42 pm
Mt. Union vs. Trinity at Fawcett Stadium- I would even drive to see that one.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 03, 2005, 01:18:42 am
Second game at Fawcett - John Carroll vs. Trinity (TX). Third game -  Bally Wally vs. Occidental. I would fly to see that triple header. Post games banquets in Pro HOF.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 03, 2005, 10:04:50 am
The Presidents of the NESCAC schools agreed to keep the football schedule the way it is, with no contests against outside competition, this past spring.  Trinity would never think about pulling out of the NESCAC, the AD and President love being a part of it and are now enjoying winning the league title.  So all we can do is dream about it.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 05, 2005, 01:35:19 pm
A Trinity coach told me last year that the only way the nescac football teams would ever go to the NCAA playoffs, is if the IVY league teams go to the NCAA playoffs.

and Trinity would never leave the nescac...the nescac would drop them before Trinity would ever leave.  I think only one amherst trustee wants to throw trinity out of the league though...that guy also wants to drop football as a whole from the conference as well.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Longtooth on September 05, 2005, 09:43:50 pm
Boston Bomber, what year did you play?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 06, 2005, 11:31:36 am
What a great start to the season....lot of good scores and even better finishes.  I always wondered why Trinity, or the best NESCAC football team could not earn a shot at the playoffs. However, I wont waste my time arguing that fact, but was really interested about the 10 game schedule.  Maybe D3football.com can run a page about the issue to see if there is any national interest.  I bet if there was enough pressure, there could be a change.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 06, 2005, 08:13:53 pm
Longtooth, I played at Ithaca in the early/mid 1990s, but Ive been a part of some nescac schools in other ways including having family members at several nescac schools, and some coaches that I talk to a lot.

The nescac to the playoffs issue is not a new one on this website.  And Ive talked about it before as well, but from what I can gather I can say this....

The nescac is a league that wants to be like the Ivy league for obvious reasons.  Nescac schools, like Ivy league schools are the top in the country, just smaller liberal arts schools.  Ivy league schools dont want to make the national playoffs because that would mean even more pressure from alumni than there already is to win.  The alumni in a sense, has huge influences on Ivy league coaching staffs.  At all levels of college football today, schools must lower the academic bar to let athletes into those schools.  With a national playoff in question, teams/schools would be competing even more with trying to lower that academic bar to get the best players in.  The Ivy league and Nescac leagues dont want that to happen.

Also, you go to Ivy and nescac schools for different reasons.....academically to be at one of the best schools in the counrty....and for football to be a part of two leagues that are very competitive and have some of the best traditions of all sports.  Its a great thing to be a part of competing for an Ivy or nescac league title.

Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 06, 2005, 08:37:32 pm
bomber: You have the essence of it  It's all about alumni management by the administrations of the NESCAC colleges!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 06, 2005, 08:44:07 pm
Frank, at Harvard after the Yale game certain alumni gets to  meet with the Harvard coaching staff and watches film and asks direct questions about playcalling, decisions that are made or not made, and other important game questions that alumni feel should be adressed. 

Thats just not right, but I guess its a fact of life in the Ivy league.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 07, 2005, 09:50:14 am
Bomber: Though I cannot argue with your explanation of why NESCAC football remains ineligible for the Division III playoffs, I still cannot accept the thought process behind the decision.  I would agree whole-heartedly with the rational used to explain why NESCAC schools are excluded from the NCAA playoffs if not for one glaring issue... EVERY other sport in the NESCAC is eligible for post-season competition.

This self-imposed ban of football is a blatant case of academic elitists perpetuating the stereotype of football players as big dumb jocks.  Why should the baseball, softball, field hockey, men's and women's basketball, soccer, ice hockey swiming, diving, cross country, track and field and wrestling teams etc. all be eligible for the NCAA playoffs when in some cases NESCAC football teams have not only a higher GPA but also a higher graduation rate than other sports. 

Maybe the NESCAC should stop trying so hard to be "as smart as the Ivies" and start acting with the common sense we should expect from the some of the nations most prestigious academic institutions.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 07, 2005, 10:48:39 am
Trin: No matter the validity of what you say, in the minds of college administrators football is football, and those other sports are not football.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 07, 2005, 12:42:59 pm
Alumni have power over a program, there is no disputing that.  However, it is the older alumni, the individuals that played when the d3 playoffs were not so visual to the nation that are controlling the actions of the IVY and NESCAC schools.  Does anyone think as the older alumni begin to dilute, that the younger alumni (the players that have grown up in a different football atmosphere) will be able to change the rules by putting pressure on their athletic programs?  In other words, could this just be a generational problem? 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Longtooth on September 07, 2005, 02:20:51 pm
Boston-
     What number did you wear, as not to give it away for those Non-Bombers!

LT
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 07, 2005, 07:57:48 pm
tooth, Id rather not say as there are some NEFC guys out there that might stalk me if I say......and a long time a go other people posted under my name and I really dont know what they said, not that anyone remembers anyway.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 07, 2005, 08:03:42 pm
dirty: My take on this matter is that in NESCAC the College Presidents are in control and have it their way. As time passes the alumni bodies of these Colleges are becoming and will continue to become more and more female and more and more international, increasingly reflecting two groups which tend to be indifferent about, if not hostile to, football. Consequently the Presidents will continue to have it their way but more so.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 07, 2005, 08:19:59 pm
true frank, but I would also say that most nescac coaches like the league the way it is.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 07, 2005, 08:34:55 pm
bomber: I do not have an opinion on that proposition. However, I suspect that most of the NESCAC non-football  coaches approve of post-season play in their respective sports. If that is true, what distinguishes NESCAC football  coaches from non-football in this regard?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 07, 2005, 08:55:45 pm
I cant really say for sure but Im sure tradition might be the major reason.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Tonyfromtroy on September 08, 2005, 12:47:44 am
   Some three decades ago, Union started beating the living tar (or ----) out of NESCAC teams with regularity and they were unceremoniously escorted to the hatch and jettisoned from the conference. Does anyone seriously believe it eventually will be any different (ditto) if Trinity keeps up their present pace. You know what the say about people who ignore history. Basically, it's something along the lines of not being very bright.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 08, 2005, 04:58:27 am
Tony: Union was booted from NESCAC for violating NESCAC recruiting rules in connection with Union's hockey program.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: gordonmann on September 08, 2005, 10:43:58 am
And shortly thereafter the Dutch went DI in hockey, a move we can safely assume Bantams' football is unlikely to make.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 08, 2005, 12:21:49 pm
I believe it to be a very unlikely scenario that Trinity would be asked to leave the NESCAC simply for winning games.  I also can't imagine that the Bantams will dominate at their current pace for too much longer (especially if Priore does in fact leave for a higher profile job). 

Also there have been complaints from other NESCAC school officials and alumni (mostly Middlebury, Amherst and Williams) who are tired of Trinity dominating the league in football.  The focus of their argument being that Trinity is accepting athletes to play football who are not be accademically eligible for NESCAC schools. 

Though there have been no infractions (and for that matter no formal accusations that Trinity has violated any NCAA or NESCAC rules regarding recruting or accepting student athletes) the administration at Trinity is sure to tighten the reigns on the Trinity football machine.  That is to say, it's a more likely scenario than Williams and Amherst lowering their academic standards to widen their recruiting base. 

Wether this is good or bad for NESCAC football, I am unsure.  And though it may seem that Trinity has an unfair advantage in that they can recruit athletes with a slightly lesser accademic record, keep in mind that Trinity has broken no rules and more importantly... Chuck Priore graduates his players!  In his 5 seasons as the head coach he has done a tremendous job of not only keeping his recruits in the football program, but also the kids he has helped to get into the school have all graduated with possibly 1 or possibly 2 exceptions (and they were not players who contributed to the success of the program). 

The goal of the Division III student athlete is to graduate while also gaining valuable experiences by competing in college athletics.  If Trinity's recruits are accepted by the College's admissions standards AND graduating... what exactly is the problem with them excelling or even dominating in athletics as well?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 08, 2005, 01:17:30 pm
Tell the complainig alumni to shut up, mind their own business and, if they don't like it, have their college remove Trinity from the schedule (the latter of which, of course, will not occur).
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 08, 2005, 07:28:24 pm
Alright, why dont we talk about some of the underdogs in this league?  Who do you think will upset who?  and is there a shot for hamilton or bates to win a single game?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 08, 2005, 09:35:55 pm
dirty: Bates plays Hamilton at Hamilton on 11/12. Mark your calendar!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 09, 2005, 12:45:05 pm
yeah, got me there.  I will try to get to that one, should be exciting.  Well, do yu think one of them will win 2 games?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 09, 2005, 07:13:44 pm
dirty: 10/15 - Hamilton at Bowdoin; 11/5 - Bowdoin at Bates
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 09, 2005, 07:58:12 pm
frank : Do you really believe that Hamilton or Bates could beat a much improved Bowdoin team?  I think they will both loose by several touchdowns to the polar bears.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 09, 2005, 10:02:21 pm
dirty: I'm too lazy to recheck the records, but I believe that over the last 5 years Bowdoin's record is inferior to both Bates and Hamilton. My experience is that past performance is a better indicator of future performance than an optimistic projection.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: NescacAlum on September 10, 2005, 12:05:46 am
I dont understand this talk about Bates winning maybe one game. Last year they were 2-6 and could have easily been 4-4 if it were not for a miserable kicking game, costing them the Tufts game (14-12) as well as the Colby game that was lost on the last play of the game due to a blocked extra point and If I am correct they return the rookie of the year in the Nescac at quarterback, who may be the best QB in the league. The teams that should be considered bottom barrel teams are middlebury, hamilton, tufts.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 10, 2005, 01:06:17 pm
I'll take any of the 3 QB's Trinity uses over the kid from Colby.  Tough to put up any numbers when you don't play the whole game, not that they don't have the talent to do so....just makes planning for the Bants that much harder.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: river on September 10, 2005, 03:25:42 pm
Haverford (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/11/sports/11recruit.html?ei=5094&en=53a158b70ab09713&hp=&ex=1126411200&adxnnl=1&partner=homepage&adxnnlx=1126378994-D6uoUg6+Emd3fO9UfmNYxg&pagewanted=print) is reputed to be academically better than many (most?) NESCAC schools, but they're recruiting like . . . .
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on September 10, 2005, 03:53:07 pm
Haverford (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/11/sports/11recruit.html?ei=5094&en=53a158b70ab09713&hp=&ex=1126411200&adxnnl=1&partner=homepage&adxnnlx=1126378994-D6uoUg6+Emd3fO9UfmNYxg&pagewanted=print) is reputed to be academically better than many (most?) NESCAC schools, but they're recruiting like . . . .

Williams (1), Amherst (2), and Bowdoin (6) are all rated above Haverford, which is tied With Middlebury for # 8 in the US News and World Report ratings. Five NESCAC football-playing schools fall below Haverford in the ratings. Tufts is a university and so is not rated against its NESCAC counterparts by USNWR.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: camper on September 10, 2005, 05:13:12 pm
I'll take any of the 3 QB's Trinity uses over the kid from Colby.  T

dont you think there is a bit of a bias here, formerbant? dont doubt justin smith, he'll surprise alot of people this year. colby looks to be legit.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: NescacAlum on September 10, 2005, 07:51:24 pm
I was refering to Bates QB...
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 10, 2005, 07:52:32 pm
- Camper:  Of course I'm biased....but 22 wins is better than any stat i know of.  I'm all for Smith having a great year, I like seeing all of the NESCAC do well, as long as they aren't playing the Bants.
- NES:  Sorry for that mistake....I'm still taking the Trinity trio over anyone.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 11, 2005, 05:21:29 am
formerbant: Trinity's 22 wins has largely been caused by its OL, DBs, RBs and front 7 (pretty much in that order) - its QBs have been merely along for the ride.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 11, 2005, 09:10:04 am
Frank:  Very true, and there were many times last year when the Bants lined up w/o a QB to take advantage of their tremendous running game.  Trinity has so many good players that their QB's get lost in the mix, but Pitcher did lead the NESCAC in efficiency last year. Schweitzer threw extremely well in the Wesleyan game when he was healthy, and Barnard can hurt you with his arm and his legs.  Of course I have a very biased opinion towards them and will back them no matter what. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 11, 2005, 12:19:44 pm
former: Sounds like Trinity has the talent to play in the Atlantic Coast Conference.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 11, 2005, 06:27:25 pm
I wouldn't go that far......there's a small difference in athleticism and talent b/t the likes of Trinity and say Miami.  But they certainly have the most talent in the NESCAC.  Can you agree on that?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 11, 2005, 07:10:03 pm
former: It appears that for at least the last 2 years they have had.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 11, 2005, 08:09:42 pm
I think Bates will shock some people this year....probably not trinity, but they are an improved team.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 11, 2005, 10:09:27 pm
Frank, they definitely have the last two years.  Some of the players are pretty confident about this year as well.  But there pendelum always swings back to the other side eventually.  I just hope its not any time soon.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: NescacAlum on September 11, 2005, 10:23:59 pm
I think Bates will have a historic year in terms of there program, Their QB is an All League player as well as both D ends look for them to do big things
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 11, 2005, 11:12:17 pm
NescacAlum: What would constitute a historic year for Bates? 4 wins? Dare I day a winning season? My only question is if Trinity, Amherst, Williams and Colby are all expected to compete for the Conference title, and Bates and Bowdoin are being hyped to have big turn around seasons... who's going to lose all these games? Are Middlebury, Tufts and Wesleyan really that bad?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 12, 2005, 10:26:07 am
Frank:  Not to be putting you down or anything, but Trinity's success has been based on the performance of their defense the last three years.  If you look at the statistics, the 7-1 team allowed 110 total points on the year, the first 8-0 team allowed 30 total points (a NESCAC record, and the best in D3 in several categories), and last years defense was third in the nation in total defense!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 12, 2005, 10:48:22 am
Trinity's Defense has definitely been its best asset.  When you have players like Mike Blair who are All NESCAC pretty much their whole career and Avon Morgan, who played a limited role behind All NESCAC linebacker Greg Tanner then makes first team All NESCAC in his first year starting it's pretty obvious the Bants have some depth.  It must be nice for the coaches to pick players off an assembly line and have them perform at all conference levels.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 12, 2005, 10:59:30 am
dirty and former; If you read my posts carefully, I didn't say it wasn't, explicitly or implicitly.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 12, 2005, 02:10:49 pm
Frank, I did read your posts carefully.....just b/c I was an athlete at Trinity doesn't mean I can't read.  All Dirty and I are saying is that the Trinity D is very talented.  Dirty and I are clearly biased towards Trinity and have a good amount of information on the team.  We aren't overlooking anything that you said, explicitly or implicitly, we are just showing some love for out Bants. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: union89 on September 12, 2005, 08:32:32 pm
Glad to finally see some banter here in the NESCAC board!!

I said this the past few years, (no one was on the board to read it though) Chuck Priore is the man!!  He was our O-Line coach and O-Coordinator at Union in the late 80's.  By far the best coach I ever had and a terrible mistake by the Dutchmen not pursuing him much more strongly. 

Lots of strong rumors that he will take over for Bagnoli at Penn in the next few years. 

More than team positional strengths, his recruiting and teaching ability has catapulted Trinity to a dominant position in the NESCAC.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 12, 2005, 09:53:20 pm
and like coach welch at Ithaca, Priore is a big bob ford guy...
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 12, 2005, 09:58:45 pm
Wasn't Bob Ford the guy who assassinated Jesse James while his back was turned?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: gordonmann on September 12, 2005, 11:52:21 pm
The Trinity-Penn connection lives!!!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 13, 2005, 02:00:24 pm
Gordon-- If you dig a lil deeper, I'm sure you can find some more Trinity-UPenn connections.  Especially with their athletes.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 13, 2005, 02:05:16 pm
Defense wins championships!!  I am obviously very biased towards the defensive side of the ball, and while I agree that Priore is "The Man", Hankard (the now former d-coordinator) was probably one, if not the most inspirational leaders on and off the field as a coach.  His ability to motivate players to perform at their highest level has been a key factor for Trinity's success.  I wonder if his absence will effect the program at all?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 13, 2005, 03:20:33 pm
Dirty: I think the loss of Hankard as a the Trinity Defensive Coordinator would be huge if not for the experience returning to the Bantams defense. Also, Jeff Devaney has basically been a co-defensive coordinator the past few seasons and will do a tremendous job of preparing the Trinity defense to play (though he may not be the motivational leader Hankard was). As long as Priore can get some production from his O-line, the defense should cover-up any offensive miscues.


My 2005 NESCAC Projected Order of Finish
[/color]


1. Trinity  8-0 : Dominating defense will make up for youth on the O-line.

2. Colby  7-1 : Stepka back AGAIN, along with solid D will suffer only a week 1 loss to Williams.
    Williams  7-1 : Still can't quite compete with Trinity, but a win over Amherst completes a great year.

4. Amherst  5-3 : The loss of Ladd, Mosley and Wagstaff is too much for defense to overcome.

5. Bowdoin  4-4 : Finally the Polar Bears take the next step up the NESCAC ladder.

6. Bates  3-5 : A strong showing for a team on the rise.
    Middlebury  3-5 : Without Keenan and Cleaver Panthers stumble to a losing record.

8. Hamilton  1-7 : Same old Continentals.
    Tufts  1-7 : Disapointing season for a program on the decline.
    Wesleyan  1-7 : Cardinals lucky to win a game.


Any thoughts?

(sorry I went a little overboard with the features)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 13, 2005, 05:50:49 pm
Trin: I do have some issues with your pre-season poll.  Although I agree that Trinity will go 8-0, I believe there will be a two way tie for second with both Williams and Colby.  Amherst finishes 3rd, while Weslyan has another consistent season, Bowdoin steps up another notch, but the rest all finsih poorly.

Trinity   8-0
Williams 6-2
Colby 6-2
Amherst 5-3
Weslyan 4-4
Bowdoin 4-4
Tufts 3-5
Bates 2-6
Middlebury 2-6
Hamilton 0-8
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 13, 2005, 08:48:35 pm
Trinity
Williams
Bates
Amherst
Bowdoin
Colby
Middlebury
Wesleyan
Tufts
Conn College
Brandeis
Mt. Holyoke
Smith
Hamilton
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 13, 2005, 09:49:55 pm
bomber: You forgot Vassar, Skidmore and Hampshire.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 14, 2005, 09:04:59 am
Dirty: It seems to me the only difference between our picks is that you project a better season for Wesleyan. 

If you'll re-read my picks, I too believe there will be a two way tie for 2nd between Williams and Colby. 

You picked Amherst to finish 3rd, but also picked Trinity, Williams and Colby to finish ahead of them... which is it?

Also, the only thing consistant about Wesleyan is that they're consistantly bad.  They finished 3-5 last year with another close win against lowly Hamilton and a 4 point win over Bowdoin (which won't happen this year).


Bomber: Bates finishing ahead of Amherst? Colby finishing with the worst record in the BBC? Very bold predictions. Also, I know I picked Hamilton to go 1-7, but don't sleep on Brandon Holstag and Hamilton.  He's a good QB, who with some help, could pull an upset or two. Who knows, they might even beat New England Technical Institute.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 14, 2005, 01:23:27 pm
Trin:  I have Tufts finishing higher in my pre-season poll.  I feel that they were very young last year and have some outstanding players on defense...some of which Trinity tried desperately to obtain.  Also, while I agree our order of finish is similar, I think the growing competition within the league will reflect in the records.  See you October 1st...for the showdown in the "Coop".
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 14, 2005, 04:59:13 pm
Dirty: Looking forward to it... I'm actually going to the Trinity/Wesleyan scrimmage this weekend to get a look at that Bantam O-line and to get my NESCAC football fix.  Is anyone else going to catch any other NESCAC scrimmages? Amherst/Williams should be interesting.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 14, 2005, 06:09:22 pm
Wish I could get up there for that...should be an interesting day.  Make sure to give us your read on the team, post scrimmage.  Talk to you soon.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: gordonmann on September 14, 2005, 09:53:34 pm
Wow...nothing like playing your rivals in a scrimmage and then at the end of the season.

At least you get a clear measure of progress. :)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: camper on September 14, 2005, 11:26:49 pm
im going to go out and say that colby goes ( with a break or two) 8-0 and that trinity suffers a week two loss to williams and finishes at second with the ephs. i know im going to catch some flak from all the trinity supporters on this page but i think that this is colby's year. trinity may be the trendsetter in the NESCAC but stranger things have happened...
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 15, 2005, 08:30:07 am
Camper: Bold prediction, but not out of the realm of possibility.  I too think Colby has a shot at Williams, and possibly even an undefeated season. Furthermore, if Williams does lose week 1, you know they'll be fired up to play the following week at Trinity to avoid back to back loses. 

However, the fact that the game is in Hartford makes it that much harder for the Ephs.  The Bantams have gone 16-4 at home since 1999 and are a perfect 12-0 in "The Coop" since the new synthetic field-turf was put in at the start of the 2002 season. The AVERAGE score of those 12 games... 38-4

Williams has no doubt been the toughest out at home for the Bantams during that stretch, a 10-0 Trinity win in 2003. And they will likely give Trinity the best game this year (with the possible exception of week 7 @ Amherst).

Is it possible for Trinity to finish 2nd in the NESCAC this year? Sure, but I think a more plausible scenario is a two-way tie for 1st. Who knows, maybe two NESCAC schools finishing with 8-0 records would add some momentum towards getting at least a 9 game schedule.

One things is for sure, Williams has the toughest schedule to start the 2005 season.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: weightman on September 15, 2005, 12:15:39 pm
8-0;

     90% that I'll be at the Wms Amherst scrimmage.  If I go I'll share some observations.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 15, 2005, 01:28:15 pm
Is Colby really gonna be that good???  I know not playing Trinity makes their season a lot easier, but 8-0??? that's pretty serious. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 15, 2005, 02:33:23 pm
I agree Former, my prediction is that colby losses to Williams by two touchdowns and finishes second in the league. 
            Listen, I know we are using this 8-0 business very causually but lets be honest, it is very difficult to have a perfect record in the NESCAC.  The fact that Trinity has back-to-back 8-0 seasons is remarkable!  However, if you look back on the last two seasons, the 2003 team had some very close calls, and relied on their defense to take them to an 8-0 season.  Last year was an exception, with both the defense and offense dominating the league.  Before 2003 it had been 10 years (1993) since Trinity had an 8-0 season.  Seasons like the past two for Trinity are rare in the NESCAC and I dont see any other teams dominating for 8 straight games to have an undefeated season.  There will be some close games, and there will also be some major upsets....this will be a great season, but please respect the fact that an 8-0 season is very difficult to accomplish.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 15, 2005, 03:06:54 pm
Dirty: Actually there have been 9 undefeated season in the NESCAC in the just past 15 years.  That means more than half of the seasons since 1989 have had an undefeated team win the title. Though keep in mind, over that span, it has only been either Trinity or Williams that have accomplished it.

And though I do know from experience how difficult it is to finish a season with a perfect record... It appears that it is not such a rare occurance in the NESCAC. (at least in recent history)


1989 Williams 8-0
1990 Williams 8-0
1993 Trinity 8-0
1994 Williams 8-0
1995 Williams 7-0-1
1998 Williams 8-0
2001 Williams 8-0
2003 Trinity 8-0
2004 Trinity 8-0
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 15, 2005, 05:16:15 pm
I am actually suprised that Amherst has not had an 8-0 season in the last 15 years, and Middlebury was very good for several years as well.  I guess if you look at past performance as a good indicator for the future [Frank] then Colby does not have a great chance at an 8-0 season.  Trin8-0 why do you think only Williams/Trinity have been able to accomplish perfect seasons in the last 15 years?  What makes a perect season possible?  Clearly there has to be a combination of events that Williams and Trinity have solved which other NESCAC programs have not.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 16, 2005, 11:15:57 am
Dirty: Though Amherst has not had an undefeated season in the past 15 years, they have come close.  Amherst was 7-1 in 1996 but lost their final game 19-13 to Williams. The Lord Jeffs came up 1 win shy again in 2000 when they, along with Colby and Middlebury, all finished 7-1. The next year, 2001, Amherst again finished 7-1, again losing to Williams 23-20 in OT.

In addition to the 2000 season, Middlebury also got close in 1992, with a 7-1 record.  (The one loss, a 43-0 shallacking by Trinity.)

Colby had another 7-1 season in 1994 but their undefeated season was also spoiled by Trinity in a 17-15 loss.

Even Wesleyan and Tufts have had a 7-1 seasons since '89.  In 1997 the Cardinals only loss was to Amherst 36-14, and the Jumbos fell to Williams 42-7 in 1998.

Also Williams went 7-1 in 1991, 1993, 1997, 1999 and 2002

Trinity went 7-1 in 1989, 1996 and 2002

As for why only Williams and Trinity have been able to finish the season undefeated in the past 15 years, the answer is simple:

Recruiting, Recruiting, Recruiting!

(also great coaches in Dick Farley, Don Miller and Chuck) Priore
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 16, 2005, 01:52:01 pm
Trin8-0 : Thank you for the history lesson, I would have looked it up myself but I'm to lazy.  Besides, I know you like to that kind of stuff.  I guess it comes down to the fact that there is always going to be Williams and Trinty to compete with to have a chance at an 8-0 season, and to this point they have been the spoilers (and Amherst).
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: eph69 on September 17, 2005, 09:01:10 pm
did anyone go to the games today???
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 17, 2005, 09:04:39 pm
Notre Dame game was great...but what about the NESCAC?  Trin8-0, how was the Weslyan scrimmage? and I beleive someone else went to the Williams scrimmage?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: saul on September 17, 2005, 09:22:36 pm
    Just wondering if folks think that Amherst might give Trinity a pretty tough game later this season. Somebody did mention it in passing, but I think the Jeffs will give Trinity a tougher game than Williams will this season, mainly because the game will be in Amherst. I know Amherst is overmatched on paper but in D3 football just about anything can happen and home field means a lot. What do you think?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: nessy on September 18, 2005, 03:03:11 am
Was @ the colby/bates scrimmage today.  Colby looked flat the first O and D series and Bates thought they were playing for the championship.  Needless to say, the adrenaline wore off and Colby woke up.  Bates marched down the field on their first position with several good runs and two passes, including a nice 3rd and 10 conversion inside the Colby 30.  After scoring, they forced Colby to punt after failing to convert on 3rd down.  After that it was all Colby, they had scoring drives of 99 yards and 70 yards.  A touchdown was called back on an inadvertant whistle when the back judge thought the QB was going to be sacked.  Colby's D shut Bates down for the rest of the afternoon.  Bates QB and TB both looked good while their WR #17 was outstanding (all in that first series).
Colby's O line dominated, springing their TB for a 55 td run on the 99yd drive and their QB hit every eligible receiver at least once during the event.  Bates was held to one first down the remainder of the day.  Colby got consistant pressure on the QB and the linebackers stuffed every hole and the DB's were all over recievers.  This may be the best team Colby has fielded in some time.  Good size and experience up front along with lots of talented playmakers at the skill positions.  I thought their D would drop off after last year, but they don't seem to be missing a beat.  Their field goal kicker also kicked a 45 yard field goal into the wind.  Bates looked bigger and faster than past years and their QB has a stronger than average arm.  They give some teams trouble this year, but will probably finish in the middle of the pack.  Lack of speed and size in the secondary will hurt them.  A weak kicking game will come back to haunt them.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 18, 2005, 12:20:01 pm
Nessy:  Have you been able to watch other NESCAC teams in the past?  How do yu think Colby rates compared to some of the more elite teams in the NESCAC's past?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: weightman on September 18, 2005, 05:17:38 pm
Williams won the pre season game vs Amherst.  Play started with some 7 0n 7 with QB, backs and receivers vs LBs and backfield and it was clear Williams had an improved passing attack, or Amherst a weaker pass defense.    I suspect this  was a great learning experience for the Amherst pass D as to what they have to work on.  The linemen went to the practice field and did some one on one pass rush/defense drills, that looked pretty even.  Then they came back and each ran a few goal line D sequences and then a few punt sequences each. When the game started, the Williams passing attack was strong with a long completion for a touchdown near the beginning of the game.  Several running backs looked good for Williams, but Weeks had one run that had both sides showing their appreciation, with one open field move that left the Amherst guy grabbing air.    Williams has a bread and butter counter play where they pull the rt G & T to the left, with the guard knocking the DT outside and the tackle going through the hole to go for the linebacker.  It worked really well once, another time the herst NT ran through the vacated hole and got the RB before the play could get started.  Williams also had another play where they rolled right then screened back left that went for a big gain, helped by a good block downfield. Otieno for Amherst had one nice speed run that would have been a TD if he didnt trip on his own just short of goal line. Williams kicker missed a PAT but made a nice field goal.  Both teams look like the kicking is unsettled.  Williams left side O line looks bigger, with a 300 lb soph and a 270 freshman that may be starting, unless someone was hurt.   The freshman punched one of the Amherst D linemen in the privates.   Didn't intimidate Amherst, but frosh gained a reputation for being low class .  The d lineman was livid but then subs went in.  Some recruiting website on google listed the freshman's  PSAT score at 1120, so don't anyone think that Williams  Admissions isn't letting Coach Whelan drop school standards big time to get players.   The two D lines looked about even.    Amhersts D line did decently vs the run but Williams got three good running plays off, and Williams D line put more pressure on the QB.     The Amherst O line let up some sacks.  Very few penalties were called either side.  After 3rd quarter the clock and scoreboard were shut off xc for 25 second.  Whelan and Mills ended the day with some ten play  sequences for the younger players who got some good game experience.  I came away thinking that Williams will have a shot vs. Trinity.   Amherst has potential, but coaches have some coaching to do.   

     There was another interesting aspect of the day going on. I hadn't heard anything previously, but was told by some  parents that because of some complaint that i heard Hamilton may have made vs. Trinity after last years game, the NESCAC presidents are making the teams strictly adhere to the 75 man roster limit this year, which is meaning that some kids have to be cut from the rosters by next Friday to get down to 75.   Not impacting  the Maine schools so much or Ham, but definitely Trinity Wms and Amherst.  Apparently several boys that were recruited out of HS and now Jrs or sophs will be told they can't play.   Some parents in the stands were upset. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: nessy on September 18, 2005, 05:29:45 pm
I have been watching NESCAC football for about 5 years now.  Living in CT, Trinity and Weslyan are easy to get to, but I have been to almost every school in the conference.  Trinity 03 & 04 is undoubtedly the best I have seen.  Colby may not be that dominating on Defense, but can hold their own with any offense I have seen in this league.  They have more playmakers than I could count.  As a defensive coodinator, I wouldn't know what to take away.  The quarterback has matured, has good pocket sense and field vision along with a stellar tight end and several fast recievers.  The two running backs will split  time, but both would be starters and stars anywhere in this league and I can't imagine what it would be like to see them both on the field together.  They don't seem to have an outstanding wr, but several players who can make plays and all want the ball.  Their biggest strength may be their offensive line, big, strong and mature. Colby is for real.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on September 18, 2005, 05:32:01 pm
My understanding has been that the 75 man roster has/should always been in effect.  Never took the time to count rosters but I know schools (not just those in Maine & Hamilton) did need to cut players prior to the season......and did.   Was unaware that the schools mentioned were in violation.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 18, 2005, 05:32:30 pm
Why have a rule if it's not strictly enforced?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 18, 2005, 05:34:37 pm
There are 77 players on Trinity's numerical roster and 79 on the alphabetical roster. Shouldn't be too difficult for them to get in compliance.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on September 18, 2005, 05:37:26 pm
Good question......not that big a deal but a rule is a rule.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 18, 2005, 05:52:22 pm
I would be surprised if Hamilton would have had a complaint last year -- Hamilton was a road game for Trinity and certainly wouldn't have traveled more than 75 players.

Stats for that game credit 60 Trinity players with having appeared in the game.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 18, 2005, 08:02:00 pm
It is a rule foolishly limiting student's participation in colleges priding themselves on broad student participation and is a big deal for players, who end up being cut, and their parents who pay as much tuition as the parents of the uncut players. I'm sure Hamilton wouldn't stand for Trinity's dictating the number of sections of Hamilton's English 101.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 18, 2005, 08:19:31 pm
I suppose not, but those are the conditions of being in the NESCAC, and if Trinity or any other school doesn't like the rule it should try to get it changed or remove itself from the conference.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on September 18, 2005, 08:25:33 pm
It is a rule foolishly limiting student's participation in colleges priding themselves on broad student participation and is a big deal for players, who end up being cut, and their parents who pay as much tuition as the parents of the uncut players. I'm sure Hamilton wouldn't stand for Trinity's dictating the number of sections of Hamilton's English 101.

The rule was put in place because of the perception on the part of several NESCAC schools that Williams, Amherst, and Trinity were basically stockpiling NESCAC players with huge rosters of 100 players, knowing full well that many of their recruits would play very little or not at all.  There was a point a few years ago when the Hamilton roster fell to a dangerously small size (I forget the exact numbers but maybe less than 50 players).
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 18, 2005, 08:30:06 pm
Break up football in NESCAC! It is too imperious! Then each former NESCAC college as an independent can play any other former NESCAC college on terms upon which the two of them can agree plus other colleges with which it can come to terms.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 18, 2005, 08:44:00 pm
speedy: The 76th player on Trinity's roster does not have nearly enough talent to be a starter for Hamilton. Consequently he is very unlikely to choose Hamilton over Trinity in an attempt  to get playing time. And if for purposes of argument it is acknowledged that he has such talent, then why solve Hamilton's lack of roster size problem by creating an educational problem for Trinity. Folly. Trinity shouldn't stand for it.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: saul on September 18, 2005, 09:26:59 pm

     Frank, you're assuming that the 76th Trinity player would be admitted to Hamilton; that's not a given, even though I hear Trinity has competitive admissions in general. Is Trinity in CT affiliated with Trinity in Texas?
     
     I need to know if Amherst can beat Trinity this season.   
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 18, 2005, 09:36:10 pm
saul: If Trinity's 76th player is unable to gain admission to Hamilton, my argument is strengthened. I believe (but am not sure) that Trinity (TX) and Trinity (CT) have no affiliation with each other. See your favorite soothsayer concerning the possible outcomes of Amherst vs. Trinity (CT).
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on September 18, 2005, 10:31:18 pm
speedy: The 76th player on Trinity's roster does not have nearly enough talent to be a starter for Hamilton. Consequently he is very unlikely to choose Hamilton over Trinity in an attempt  to get playing time. And if for purposes of argument it is acknowledged that he has such talent, then why solve Hamilton's lack of roster size problem by creating an educational problem for Trinity. Folly. Trinity shouldn't stand for it.

Frank: I am just telling you what went into the decision-making process on the part of NESCAC officials. And the rule was as much aimed at Williams and Amherst as Trinity.  Trinity, of course, will stand for it as the 75-man limit on football rosters is but one of a host of rules governing all aspects of athletics at the NESCAC schools, which all NESCAC schools developed jointly and agreed to comply with. It is not as though Trinity is entitled to pick and choose among the NESCAC rules and policies and only comply with those that it likes.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on September 18, 2005, 11:15:40 pm
Here's the NESCAC rule on squad size. The rosters must be finalized by noon on Friday of this week. No changes can be made later in the season . . . This rule has been in effect for several years now so it is surprising to hear parents complaining about.

Squad Size
Each NESCAC institution that sponsors football shall submit their official team roster (of no more than 75 players) to the conference office. Official rosters must be submitted no later than noon the day before the first game of the season. Each roster shall indicate the name and number of each player that will be eligible for practice and competition that season. No additions or substitutions will be permitted once the list is submitted. The roster should be submitted with the approval of and by the respective head coach and Athletics Director. Practice/taxi squads and/or separate junior varsity programs are not permitted.
(Effective: 09/21/01; Adopted 12/16/97)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 19, 2005, 03:13:23 am
If I were Trinity, I might consider the possibility of my ignoring the Rule of 75 and daring NESCAC to do anything about it. The justification for my action would be that the rule is bad educational policy forced upon me by others for reasons of their self-interest. An alternate action might be to withdraw from NESCAC for football purposes, which action would allow me to avoid the fetters of (a) the Rule of 75, (b) the 8 game limited schedule, (c) the requirement that I play football games against colleges with whose approach to football I substantially disagree (possibly such as Hamilton) and (d) the prohibition against (i) games with colleges outside of NESCAC and (ii) participation in post season play.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 19, 2005, 06:49:50 am
Frank, being a football guy I would agree with you about Trinity.  I went to Ithaca college for a chance to play for a national championship.  On the other hand, Trinity as a school needs to be associated with the nescac schools.  If the nescac schools threatened to throw trinity out of the leage because of rule violations or even for the reasons that the majority of trinity athletes couldnt get into to other nescac schools and the nescac thought that some reputation was being challanged,  you would see trinity administration drop football for a few years before they would leave the nescac.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 19, 2005, 07:12:13 am
boston: You may be right, but it doesn't mean that such action would be educationally or ethically sound. It would merely mean that a bully (NESCAC) was up on its muscle.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 19, 2005, 07:27:39 am
true frank but let me ask you this.  What if a guy like maurice clarett transfered to trinity after that whole draft debacle.  What would people be saying then, or what should people be saying then.  (and for the record, I have no idea what clarettes academic credentials are, Im assuming that is around what 95% of d1 football scholarship players is)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on September 19, 2005, 08:38:08 am
Frank: NESCAC is an all-sports conference. As I understand it, the rules are set by the presidents of the institutions. Trinity has many other sports interests besides football (strong baselball, hockey, and basketball programs) and is not going to jeopardize its entire sports program by getting tossed out of the NESCAC for violating a black-and-white rule. NESCAC will (and has) tossed out schoools that do not comply with its rules. That is precisely what happened to Union and that was before the NESCAC rules were as tight and as specific as they are now.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 19, 2005, 09:24:53 am
Speedy:  Hamilton is considered part of the NESCAC, but does not compete in the NESCAC in men's or women's basketball.  And why is everyone talking about the NESCAC wanting to oust Trinity?  I don't know where all this talk is coming from, but it is an absolutely ridiculous idea that the NESCAC would want to throw out Trinity.  Trinity's President is the chair of the NESCAC this year and I know for a fact that he believes NESCAC sports are the best in all of college athletics which is why he took the job at Trinity.  I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that I don't think the NESCAC is looking to boot Trinity just becuase they are winning a few football games.  But keeping throwing that hate around.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 19, 2005, 10:00:20 am
Listen, Trinity is not in any jepordy of being thrown out of the league, and having played at Trinity I can give a a solid opinion of how the program is being run.
      First of all, Chuck Priore has run the program like a true professional from day one.  As a coach he realized that the program needed a change, and he proved his point when many seniors and juniors quit his first season at the helm.  He had/has great recruiting skills, and managed to get the right players for his style of play.  Within three seasons Priore was able to tie for the championship...and the rest we all know.  Over the last last five seasons Priore has followed the NESCAC guidelines, and I witnessed Priore cut players from the roster in order to reach the 75 man limit.  I can assure you that Priore would not want any red tape tied to his name or to the program.  The players, coaches, alumni and institution have tremendous pride for their football program....it has a long and outstanding history. 
        It seems to me, the only reason there is so much heat on Trinity is the fact that the players and coaches have worked very hard to achieve the level of success that other NESCAC schools desperatly want to reach.  The truth of the matter is....while Trinty football players are pumping iron in the offseason, and studying playbooks.......some of the other players in the league are taking long vacations, and doing NOTHING to help them improve their athletic ability (I KNOW THIS FOR A FACT).  Please note that I said "SOME", which is exactly the difference right now....because other players in other programs are not holding each other accountable....it has nothing to do with coaches or schools.  If you want to know why Trinity has been so sucessful over the past few years, all you have to do is talk to the players.  They respect and fear the possibilty of letting each other, or the program down......That is what makes the difference.....they are truly a TEAM.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on September 19, 2005, 10:13:42 am
Speedy:  Hamilton is considered part of the NESCAC, but does not compete in the NESCAC in men's or women's basketball.  And why is everyone talking about the NESCAC wanting to oust Trinity?  I don't know where all this talk is coming from, but it is an absolutely ridiculous idea that the NESCAC would want to throw out Trinity.  Trinity's President is the chair of the NESCAC this year and I know for a fact that he believes NESCAC sports are the best in all of college athletics which is why he took the job at Trinity.  I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that I don't think the NESCAC is looking to boot Trinity just becuase they are winning a few football games.  But keeping throwing that hate around.

The talk of ousting Trinity from NESCAC only arises in the context of Frank's suggestion that Trinity should willfully violate NESCAC rules with regard to NESCAC roster limits. I know of no such plans so presumably we are only discussing a theoretical possibility.

The Hamilton case is a special one because its ability to continue participate in another league for basketball, baseball, and soccer was grandfathered. It would be a different case if any one of the NESCAC schools were to try to opt out of the NESCAC on a sport-by-sport basis. There's no way such a move by Trinity or any other NESCAC member  would be tolerated at this stage of the game.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 19, 2005, 10:28:23 am
Trinity has been in COMPLETE compliance of the 75 player roster limit since the implementation of the rule in 2001.  I have friends who were upperclassment at Trinity who worker hard all summer and practiced all preseason that were cut prior to the season opener.  

This is a ridiculous rule that is counterintuitive to what DIII athletics is all about. We don't play division III athletics as a means to get to the pros or as a way to keep our athletic scholarship. We play because we love the game.  It's true that the 76th player on Trinity, Williams or Amherst would make no difference on any other NESCAC school, and to say that they should have gone to a different school where they would have played (not to mention if they would have gotten it) and have them sit the bench on a team that wont even be competitive makes no sense.

Chuck Priore would tell you that the hardest days he has had coaching at Trinity are the days when he has had to cut a player. A young man that has made a commitment to the football program, a player who all he wants to do is practice and dress on gamedays, and be a part of a championship team.  He hates the rule, but regardless of how he feels about it, he has inforced it each and every year and will continue to do so.

As for Colby, they seem to have been as good as advertised, however, we must remember they were playing an (at best) middle of the pack Bates team. We'll know a lot more about the Mules after this weekends game against Williams.  If they show up flat against the Ephs, it will be a long game for the home team.

I was unable to get to the Trinity-Wesleyan scrimmage but spoke to some friends who went and a coach at Trinity. To no suprise, the Bantams were dominant.  The score was 40-something to 6. The Trinity O-line, which had been called into question on this board, looked strong and the defense may be the fastest unit Priore has had at Trinity (which is saying something).

As for what these scrimmages mean to Trinity-Williams and Trinity-Amherst... probably nothing, but the biggest scare the Bantams have had during their 22 game win streak was a 21-14 comeback win at Amherst.  If Trinity can get by Williams week 2, they should have a good shot to go 8-0 again, as Priore will avoid any let-down this year at Amherst.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: BobbyBoucher on September 19, 2005, 11:54:54 am
This rule may be counterintuitive to DIII athletics, but I'm assuming all NESCAC schools/coaches are required by the league to inform their recruits/parents during the recruiting process.  If the recruit still decides to attend a NESCAC school, its their problem.

Now if this information is not divulged, I would have a serious problem with the school's administrative office and league policies.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 19, 2005, 11:59:44 am
Speedy, thanks for clearing that up for me.  As a former Trinity athlete I get pretty offended when people say the academic standards are lowered for athletes.  I was very proud of the fact that I could have gotten into Trinity without the help of a coach talking to admissions.  I was also proud of the fact that more than 50% of my teammates achieved over a 3.0 while I was on the team, not to mention that I was proud of us winning about 75% of our contests.  And I still don't like the fact that this board seems to be saying that Trinity is the only school guilty of such a practice.  Were people questioning Williams' admissions when there hoops team went to the finals two years in a row, no.  So I don't get why people are questioning Trinity's ethics and how they have gotten to this point of dominance.  I'm gonna take Trin8-0's word on how the Trinity program works seeing as though he was a part of it.  Everyone else is speculating on the issue, it seems as if he is the only one that has any real connection to the team.
Title: Nescac Scrimmages
Post by: oldman99 on September 19, 2005, 12:32:45 pm
Was there a new scrimmage structure in the Nescac this year, instead of the old system where you would scrimmage the team that you did not play in the regular season?  Who did Middlebury scrimmage.  Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Nescac Scrimmages
Post by: speedy on September 19, 2005, 12:37:18 pm
Was there a new scrimmage structure in the Nescac this year, instead of the old system where you would scrimmage the team that you did not play in the regular season?  Who did Middlebury scrimmage.  Thanks for the info.

Midllebury scrimmaged the Dartmouth JV. Bowdoin scrimmaged Tufts and has a regular season game with Tufts as well.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 19, 2005, 12:37:44 pm
speedy: Why don't Trinity, Amherst and Williams join to ignore the Rule of 75 and then look for NESCAC's reaction? Sounds as if NESCAC is an elite club where all the members are equal, but some members are more equal than others (with thanks to George Orwell).
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 19, 2005, 12:41:25 pm
formerbant, all nescac schools and probably 90% of all schools in the country lower the academic bar for athletes.

And again, I wouldnt look at a gpa too much.  Ill take an MIT guy with a 2.7 gpa over a Springfield phys ed 4.0 gpa anytime.  I might respect the teacher more but gpa doesnt mean anything. 

There was even a big uproar at Harvard a few years back.  Many teachers were giving 90% of their students As in all their classes.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 19, 2005, 01:46:56 pm
Bomber, the phys ed program at Springfield is one of their toughest majors.  Supposedly anything outside of the sports realm there are the cupcake classes.  But I understand what you're saying.  I completely agree with the statement that 90% of the schools lower, but I wouldn't be surprised if every school has done it at some point or will in the future.  From what I have heard about Harvard, the toughest thing is getting in it's not too much work after that....but that's only going on what I've heard.  I was speaking from a personal standpoint, saying that those comments offend me, not saying that they are untrue however.  Even the prestigious Ivy League schools are allowed to admit athletes with supbar qualifications, as long as their recruiting class as a whole meets a certain standard.  So if they can do it, why can't everyone?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 19, 2005, 02:16:16 pm
Frank: I don't believe Trinity, Williams, Amherst or any other school in the NESCAC is going to leave the conference in the foreseeable future. Nor do I think the assumptions made on this board about the league kicking Trinity out, Trinity purposely breaking league rules in order to challenge the system or the notion that Trinity would ever drop its football program for a year or more in order to please the league carry any weight.

I think we are all making way too much out of Trinity's dominance in the past few seasons. Why wasn't any of this going on when Williams was winning 23 games in a row in the early '90s?

Eventually (probably within the next 2 or 3 years) Trinity College will increase the academic standards making it harder for the football program to get athletes into the school and we will have a return to more of a ballance of power at the top. This process will be excellerated if Priore ever does leave Trinity. In the mean time lets just enjoy watching one of the most efficiently run programs in the nation, play quality opponents who are all working very hard to knock off the champs.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: fpc85 on September 19, 2005, 03:01:14 pm
Well said.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on September 19, 2005, 04:54:07 pm
speedy: Why don't Trinity, Amherst and Williams join to ignore the Rule of 75 and then look for NESCAC's reaction? Sounds as if NESCAC is an elite club where all the members are equal, but some members are more equal than others (with thanks to George Orwell).

I seriously doubt that any of the three institutions you mention have any interest whatsoever in destroying the NESCAC or withdrawing as would be the outcome of your suggestion. The NESCAC set up serves all 11 member schools across the board very well, with many NESCAC members using tough conference play as a spring board to advance deep into the NCCA play-offs in a wide range of sports.

These decisions governing the NESCAC rules are made by the presidents of the schools -- not by the athletic directors or the football coaches. The president of Trinity is not going to sacrifice the school's successful hockey program or its outstanding baseball program for a quizotic battle over how many players should be on the football roster.

There are zillions of NESCAC rules governing all aspects of sports operations at the 11 NESCAC scools. The 75-player limit on rosters is but one of many such restrictions. I suspect it is judged to be reasonable compromise by all NESCAC members as part of an overall sports packages, and I doubt that any institution has any interest in going to the mat over it since the rule has been in effect for some time now.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 19, 2005, 05:11:00 pm
Speedy: Though I agree that the rule will not be challenged any time soon by any NESCAC school, I still do not see the benefit of the rule itself to anyone involved. having a roster limit of 75 players doesn't help football programs like Hamilton, they can barely find 60 kids who want to play there. Nor does it help programs like Trinity, the kids they cut would not have contributed to the number of wins.

The only thing this rule does is hurt the kids who are being cut. It takes away their opportunity to compete, to get better and to learn valuable lessons while playing a game they love. It may sound hokey, but telling a walk-on at a division III school that he's not good enough to even practice with the team, in my opinion, just seems wrong to the very core.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 19, 2005, 05:16:41 pm
Anyone have predictions on this weekends scores?  Who is gonna beat who? and will there be any upsets?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on September 19, 2005, 06:05:06 pm
Speedy: Though I agree that the rule will not be challenged any time soon by any NESCAC school, I still do not see the benefit of the rule itself to anyone involved. having a roster limit of 75 players doesn't help football programs like Hamilton, they can barely find 60 kids who want to play there. Nor does it help programs like Trinity, the kids they cut would not have contributed to the number of wins.  . .

I don't think that the powers-that-be will agree with you. Since the rule has been in effect, the 3 schools that were the most at risk due to small squad size - Hamilton, Bates, and Bowdoin -- have all picked up in squad size.  The change may be as much (or more) a function of the new limits on the number of "tipped" football recruits (15) per school but the perception will be that the change in the rules accomplished its intended purpose -- to get those three programs off the endangered list.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 19, 2005, 06:39:49 pm
trin8-0 there were a lot of people questioning williams through the 1990s, there was just no d3football.com to see it on.  Ill tell ya what though, I knew a lot of old williams players on those teams and frankly, they were geeks.  Whats even more funny, is that the ones I thought were the dumbest are doctors today.  I dont know how much williams lowered the academic bar, but what I do know is that amherst started to lower their bar significantly to compete with williams.  That did cause sort of a mild uproar.

And I dont know about the other schools in the nescac, but Bates, Bowdoin, Colby and Middlebury have been lowering the bar significantly to let in football and lacrosse players.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on September 19, 2005, 07:00:26 pm
. . .
And I dont know about the other schools in the nescac, but Bates, Bowdoin, Colby and Middlebury have been lowering the bar significantly to let in football and lacrosse players.

All NESCAC schools lower their admission standards for athletes. The rules on "tipping" for athletes are officially enshrined in NESCAC policy. The football coach can "tip" as many as 15 football players each year. Tipping is a form of affirmative action for athletes. Up until a few years ago, there were no football specific limits on tipping. The 15-player limit on the number of football tips per year was put in place a few years ago due in large part to the recruiting excesses at Williams and Amherst in the 1990s.  The limit on squad size was a part of the same package and was intended to prevent the stockpiling of football players by certain institutions.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 19, 2005, 07:21:56 pm
speedy, Ive talked about this tipping before.  And those 15 kids each school can let is still an "unofficial" number from what I understook, but it is the common number most nescac admission officers seem to use.  Im pretty sure at Middlebury a 1200 is the lowest they can go.  They can get a kid with an 1180 but just one.  Thats from a pretty reliable source that was up there two years ago, but you must be a current or former coach cause your right on the money.

and are you sure the tipping policy is official???  Id love to see the writing on that one, my understanding was that the 15 was an unofficial number between nescac admissions, anything in writing about a policy I would think would be illegal somehow.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on September 19, 2005, 07:46:48 pm
speedy, Ive talked about this tipping before.  And those 15 kids each school can let is still an "unofficial" number from what I understook, but it is the common number most nescac admission officers seem to use.  Im pretty sure at Middlebury a 1200 is the lowest they can go.  They can get a kid with an 1180 but just one.  Thats from a pretty reliable source that was up there two years ago, but you must be a current or former coach cause your right on the money.

and are you sure the tipping policy is official???  Id love to see the writing on that one, my understanding was that the 15 was an unofficial number between nescac admissions, anything in writing about a policy I would think would be illegal somehow.

I have heard that the 15 cap for football players was made official within the past couple of years. The admissions directors for all the NESCAC schools meet at least twice a year -- my guess is that an effort is made to enforce these caps and other admissions standards for athletes through those meetings. I would love to be a fly on the wall at those meteings because I woul think that it woul be difficult to talk about compliance in any athlete specific way without violating  the student's privacy rights. . .
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 19, 2005, 07:56:07 pm
Yea, I think its more of an understanding than a written rule.  And the tough part for these coaches is that the "15" must be early decisions.  getting those high school seniors to be one of the fifteen during the college football season is a tough thing to do.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 19, 2005, 08:01:47 pm
They are their bars.  Let any of them lower or raise their own bar as much as it likes.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 19, 2005, 08:33:16 pm
"The Conference is based on mutual trust, and all members are committed to the highest ethical standards in our relationships with each other. It encourages its members to compete with one another and is committed to promoting equitable competition among us. The Conference is committed to establishing common boundaries to keep athletics strong but in proportion to the overall academic mission of the member institutions."

Frank, thats from paragraph 3 of the nescac mission statement.  One of the best things about the nescac is good competition.  If they do what you say, it would be ruined.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on September 19, 2005, 08:48:05 pm
Yea, I think its more of an understanding than a written rule.  And the tough part for these coaches is that the "15" must be early decisions.  . . 

The coaches have generally figured out how to work within the rules. There are all kinds of tricks - like converting a regular application into a second round early decision application. This can be one up until some time in Feb.  And then there is my favorite -- (1) the coach submits a list of the athletes that he is interested in to the admissions department; (2) the admission department tells the coach which of his targets is likely to be admitted through the regular admissions process without the assistance of a tip; (3) the coach then knows exactly which candidates on whom he must burn a tip.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 19, 2005, 08:52:45 pm
speedy theres a name that Ivy league teams use for the guys that can get into the schools with out help from the football formula..............dam its on the tip of my tongue I cant think of it though.

But I mean the tough part is that many high school players look at several nescac schools.  They can only apply early to the one school....but can wait for financial aid packages before they decide....but thats a whole other story.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 19, 2005, 09:03:11 pm
boston: NESCAC'S mission statement like most mission statements is a political document and consequently eyewash. NESCAC's ruination would be a good thing. Small colleges and their football teams prospered in the Northeast long before NESCAC came into existence and will continue to prosper long after NESCAC fades from the scene. It is time to break up NESCAC for football purposes. It is doing educational damage.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 19, 2005, 09:22:33 pm
frank are you the type of guy that thinks you should be able to major in football too?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 19, 2005, 09:32:45 pm
bomber: Whether a college offers a "football" major is a policy decision for each individual college to determine for itself but not to impose on others. A lot of colleges and universities offer such a thing and seem to be happy about it.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: saul on September 19, 2005, 11:02:46 pm
trinity would have beat the pats on sunday. pats goin down this year.



other schools take shots at trin cuz they have a lower admiss bar than the other schools and they take advantage of it. if you're trin prez you need $$  and some believe the shortest route to alums' pockets is thru the football field. there's nothing illegal about this and they shouldn't be asked to leave nescafe for it. trin has low endowment... wicked low.
    
bates, bowdoin, etc want good football programs too ---and ^ knows they've suffered --- they won't lower their standards across the board to do it. good for them and their precious reps, but don't complain. trin may  trail the rest in classroom, but come sat they win and alums love it, pay for it. everybody's happy there.

sure trinity's admissions policies are like its 12th man on the field, their extra down. don't blame the kids for what admiss lets in. the kids hold their end of the deal up on the field. look at the record.

other schools play under different standards so I see why they get hot cuz its not an even game being played off the field. trin can't compete w/ williams and amherst in the classroom cuz they're not even in the same league. amhert and williams kids apply to trin as a safety, if at all. anybody at trin couldn't get into amherst. if you're droppin 160k you're going to the best school you can hack. makes sense but don'y lord it over trin. amherst,etc  got the rankings and reps. so what. trin knows it and does what it can-- no shame there.  plus it makes for great football in the foilage? if you're worked up about trin, just try to celebrate their football prowess. let them entertain you. be cool. some say only the court's fool serves to entertain its superiors, but at least he's laughing,
right?

trin should never leave nescafe and I don't think they ever will-- it's a big part of their identity and too marketable to their target pool. prolly drop football before they step out the door. wheaton, clark brandeis etc, etc just waiting for the invite but it's not hap'n cause trin's leaving.

btw, only reason no football goes to ncaa is too many kids leaving campus for playoffs at wrong time of year-- near exams. too much chaos. also, prez know they can't compete nationally cuz it means lowering admiss too far. in other sports they can compno prez wants to stick his neck out to end up w/ a u of miami-esque program showing him the door. not like basketball w/ only a fraction of the kids needing tips plus no exams in march, bro. good luck to all ballers and excuse my e.e. state o' mind.


Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerd3db on September 19, 2005, 11:31:38 pm
frank:
To digress for a moment if I may.  Did you see where San Diego (DIAA non-scholarship as you know) beat Yale (Ivy, DIAA non-scholarship) this past weekend 17-14?  In relation to the past discussions that you, I, and others have had in general on this, it was a good win for the Pioneer League.  Seems like Harbaugh has them on the right track.  Just goes to show that sometimes, the DIAA non-scholarship programs when they have a "great" year can compeat with the other top DIAA non-scholarship programs and possibly some of the lower tier scholarship ones.   Occasionally, the Ivy's can do the same against better foe.  Anyway, it was good for SD this weekend. :)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 20, 2005, 06:42:37 am
bomber: Whether a college offers a "football" major is a policy decision for each individual college to determine for itself but not to impose on others. A lot of colleges and universities offer such a thing and seem to be happy about it.

Frank, what schools have football as a major??
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 20, 2005, 07:33:13 am
boston: 117 colleges and universities play DIA football. That is majoring in football.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 20, 2005, 09:32:59 am
Frank: For the last time... the NESCAC isn't going anywhere and neither is Trinity. As passionate as the Trinity, Williams, and Amherst FOOTBALL alumni may be about the teams at their alma matter... the vast majority of alumni at NESCAC schools don't really care what kind of record the football team has.

As a matter of fact at Trinity (and most of, if not ALL other NESCAC schools) the importance of football to the student body and alumni ranks somewhere between the renovation of the Chapel and the annual robot building contest. You have to remember that NESCAC schools are stuborn, elitist and to be honest probably prefer the seclusion they get from the rest of the NCAA in regards to football (collegiate sports biggest "old-boy network").

Trinity has always been at the lower end of the NESCAC in terms of academic standards for admission. There is no shame in that by anyone at Trinity, becasue it is still one of the best small colleges in the world and very selective. Trinity, Amherst and Williams with a few exceptions have always been the dominant football teams in the conference for a few simple reasons: While the higher standard of admissions at Williams and Amherst hinder their recuriting, that reputation also increases a prospective student-athletes desire to go to school there.

Trinity's advantage is that it offers student-athletes with a slightly lesser academic record the opportunity to attend a very selective small liberal arts college with great alumni connections. And the common bond between all three of the NESCAC football powers is tradition. Everyone wants to be part of a winner, and Trinity, Williams and Amherst all have a winning tradition.

The bottom line is that the NESCAC may appear flawed in many of its practices to the outside world.  However, the administration and alumni of these schools do not see it as flawed.  At least in terms of football, NESCAC decision makers prefer their secluded and elitist mentality. It proves to no one in particular that they refuse to lower themselves to among the ranks of the "commoners" in the most base and barbaric sport of all.

It is not just an bias against schools with lesser academic reputations, it is a football bias.



Why don't you hear anyone complaining about Trinity winning 7 consecutive squash national championships?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: saul on September 20, 2005, 11:40:36 am

   i think nobody else in nescafe worries too much about trinity winning at squash because squash is a pretty obscure sport w/ a low roster number. how many people show up for some barnburning bates-trinity sqaush match on a wed. in february? trin squash only plays a few nescafe schools anyway-- they got bigger fish to fry-- and crush ivies on a regular basis so nescafe schools may actually like the fact that trin represents to the max outside of their league while only inflicting limited damage to nescafe egos via direct competition. anyway, it's not footie, and that's the important thing, dude.

my friend at trin says that all the squash starters are solid students and 2 of the captains are all nescac academics and another just regular guy is too. small roster, captains on all-nescac acad and the fact that its not a helmut sport keep the critics away. helmut sports have always been a lightening rod especially since that bowen book.
 

at football games there's lots of fans. go to a trinity football  game and after a while the word get around about so and so's grades/sats and how in the world did that kid ever get in anywhere when he graduated in the midd of his class or whatever. other schools do it but on the q and not a lot cuz they have limited tips. even tips they get often need a pg yr at a decent prep school as evidence they can do the work before they get in. a lot of kids who get told that at amherst or the ivies walk over to trin to take their shot.  why spend the extra $$$, no guarantees from admiss, just an extra long look. some kids at trin can tell you that.  the other nescafe schools are better than trin and don't have the same success as trin in football, just treading water some of them. they can't compete w/ trins system so they complain.

btw, each school determines the number of tips it allows and it often changes from year to year based on the strength of that years ' applicants. a tip is no guarantee either cuz admissions can accept or suggest prep school.  coach recs a kid and admiss has to say "we'll take a chance on this kid ' based on the applicant pool that we've seen so far this year.

 so also i would guess --tell me if i'm wrong--that some of the worst critics of trin football are assistant coaches or head coaches at other nescac schools who get intimidated, angry or like envious of trin's triumphs and start leaking info or rumors about guys that trin let in and how it's not fair. some of its true, some's twisted & some are lies. it hurts trin but it also hurts the general rep of footie in  nescafe's---and it kills nescafe's chances of ever going national. trins problem is that footie's the 800 lb elephant that everyone in the room can see w/ all the attendant negatives but distribute that sucess over a couple other, lower profile teams and nobody's really the wiser. footie has the bad rep. hockey and lax do to but those are prep school sports and nescafe loves all things prep. also they have small rosters. football plays in the fall when other sports don't really divert attention away from them.

one option for trin is a limited nescafe pull-out: for football only, but keep all other sports nescafe. that's a big risk though, like if the coach leaves them and the program can't maintain. coach is too young and can make more $$ elsewhere; could leave trin high and dry if they leave the league. trin should just stay nescafe because programs rise and fall but necafe is a badge of honor.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 20, 2005, 11:42:49 am
Trin8-0:  I actually have heard several complaints from Harvard, Yale, and Princeton squash programs about the academic standards for Trinity athletics....However, someone is going to complain and find a reason for their inabiltity to compete with another institution.  This whole conversation is based around sore LOSERS.  When did we loose the ability to look at a team and say, "wow, they are great athletes who work hard to achieve the success they have had?"
        Does anyone really think that a students SAT scores determine how good of an athlete an individual is? or how good they will become over their 4 years in college?  Also, does an SAT score really determine the level of success that a student will have in the classroom? (although it can be an indication, hard work and persistence does count)  Speaking for myself, I was a good student at a very difficult highschool but did not perform well on my SAT's.  Trinity took a shot at me for athletics and my work in the classroom.....they took a chance and got alot in return.  Not only did I have a great career in athletics, but I also did very well in the classroom.  
        I appreciate everything Trinity has done for me, and to be honest, I think some of the other NESCAC schools pass on some great athletes, students, and people, strictly based on SAT scores......sorry guys, but they do it to themselves.



This weekend:

Trin @ Bates  45-6 (Trin)  ---  Dominating performance by Bants ground game  
                                              and defense

Midd @Bowdoin 14-21 (Bow)---- Bowdoin shows improvement @ home, ground
                                                   game slays panthers
  
Williams @ Colby 24-17 (Will)----- Williams sets up a great one for week 2 with
                                                     air attack confusing the Mules

Tufts @ Weslyan 21-10 (Jumbos)---- Jumbos push a weaker than average
                                                          Cardinal team into the losers bracket

Amherst @ Hamiltoes 31- 10 (Herst)---- No suprise, but Holstag shows some
                                                               skills
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: camper on September 20, 2005, 12:24:37 pm
reverse that colby score and you may be on to something...
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on September 20, 2005, 12:33:17 pm

   i think nobody else in nescafe worries too much about trinity winning at squash because squash is a pretty obscure sport w/ a low roster number. how many people show up for some barnburning bates-trinity sqaush match on a wed. in february? trin squash only plays a few nescafe schools anyway-- they got bigger fish to fry--

Squash is not a NESCAC sport so there would be less concern/interest on the part of other NESCAC schools with regard to the Trinity squash program.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 20, 2005, 12:57:15 pm
Saul: The squash comment was a joke, of course nobody cares about squash. And the Nescafe thing is getting old.

Dirty: We are all thrilled about your "great career and sucess in the classroom at Trinity" By the way, how's the job search going? Haha.
Solid picks, but i think the Williams-Colby game will be a closer/lower scoring game because of Colby's strong running game and two good defenses.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 20, 2005, 01:39:56 pm
Saul....not trying to pick on you, but Trinity Squash has the biggest following of a small sport in the country... Sports Illustrated did a piece on them last year about it when they won their 100th straight match....I believe they are at 126 in a row right now.  The squash team actually took a hit from admissions the last year with regards to the number of international students they could get it, but they still managed to beat everyone again.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 20, 2005, 01:50:57 pm
Trin8: You are right. I would be shocked if the then current representatives of NESCAC didn't dance on my grave.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 20, 2005, 02:32:39 pm
Trin8-0:  The job search is going well, and I have narrowed it down to several Commercial Real Estate companies....the Morgan Stanley gig was nice but I had to be free for the Williams game. HAHA
          I really do not believe that Colby is as good as advertised.....I think they will lose at least 2 games this year....

See you week 2 at Trincol:  Maybe you can get a Ninja finally
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerd3db on September 20, 2005, 05:00:25 pm
Trin8-0:
Your comments and discussion appreciated on this topic.  Frank, I and many others have discussed and "bantered" this out several times in the past.  Your conferences schools do not see their philosophy regarding post-season play, etc. as flawed, and that is okay and their perogative.  However, the other philosophy within DIII is not flawed either.  Basicall it is that old saying "to each his own".  So the rest of us can enjoy our seasons and the post- season playoffs and the great experience that provides (if any of our teams make it there in whatever year) and the NESCAC can enjoy their regular season. :)  I still say they are missing a great time, but, then again, that's their own choice and that's okay.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 20, 2005, 05:49:24 pm
Formerd3db: I couldn't agree more, and though I am a Trinity football alum and proud to have been a part 3 NESCAC championship teams I do not share the philosophy of the NESCAC powers that be.

I, and the rest of the '02 -'03 and the '04 Bantams, would have loved a shot at the best in DIII football. Just as I'm sure the other great NESCAC teams would have loved the opportunity. However, because this will likely never happen, I am content to watch as many Trinity games as I can this year and hopefully see another 8-0 season for the Dirty-Birds.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 20, 2005, 06:32:26 pm
Frank maybe the charlestown townies can join a d3 league???
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 20, 2005, 06:50:05 pm
If Trinity recieves more publicity this year (Last year...Hartford Current, Local News Broadcasts, and ESPN HIGHLIGHTS) I think they should use the media attention to reach out about this topic.  I'm sure the city of Hartford could use something to be proud of.....imagine if their local college could fight for the National Championship.  If Trinity becomes national news once again this year...lets see some movement towards the issues we are discussing behind our little computers.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 20, 2005, 06:57:12 pm
I know leo is good but losing finkeldey is huge this year.  That guy was a stud
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: saul on September 20, 2005, 11:27:01 pm

  trin 8-0 : i think Trin folks really care about squash --see formerbant10's comments on SI article. Squash has brought trin its only recent national titles so it's really the gemstone of the trin athletic scene. those guys are elite athletes on a national and, often international, scale. can't really say that about any nescac football guys.

formerbant10: just saying that during nescac competitions trin sqaush really has no competition and for those matches not a lot of trins' opposition's fans show. the match is a foregone conclusion.  among nescac schools squash is pretty low profile. but even if there was a big turnout for a squash match would it even be half of a trin-amherst football tilt? i don't think so.

dirtybird: i don't think trin is ready for the national scene, at least not this year.  no disrespect intended but depth would be a major issue and after a half things might get ugly. those schools have larger recruiting bases that run deep and many don't have the academic distractions the trin guys do. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 20, 2005, 11:31:51 pm
boston: The Charleston Townies should be able to join any league, DIII or otherwise; provided the Townies and the league are agreeable. God bless the freedom to contract in almost any form or manner, among a lot of other things which ought to be blessed.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 21, 2005, 07:38:58 am
ok I see where youre comming from now,

Frank Uible: the libertarian of american football
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 21, 2005, 09:34:06 am
bomber: There is some truth to your assessment.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 21, 2005, 09:47:57 am
Saul, I'm tellin you that the crowds for squash are much, much, much bigger than one would think.  Many times they outdrew the basketball team.  Of course the attendance at football games is bigger, but half the crowd is parents and the other half is drunk Trinity students who could care less about the game.  I would bet that there are more die hard squash fans than football fans for the Bantams.
Bomber, yeah Drew is gone and he was a huge part of the running game...but they lost Tommy Pierandri (NESCAC POY) from the year before and didn't skip a beat.  They roll RB's off the assembly line, so I wouldn't worry too much about them.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 21, 2005, 09:49:48 am
sounds like d3squash.com is next??? or is trinity squash d1?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 21, 2005, 09:54:47 am
Squash is not an NCAA sponsored sport, no divisions.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 21, 2005, 10:38:26 am
But Trinity squash is clearly collegiate squash at the highest level.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 21, 2005, 11:44:35 am
Frank, I don't believe there has been any program this dominant in college sports since John Wooden's Bruins. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 21, 2005, 12:57:56 pm
Kenyon swimming.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 21, 2005, 01:48:27 pm
Pat, good point....never would've thought of them.  The other one I was thinking of was the UNC's women's soccer teams in the 90's. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: camper on September 21, 2005, 02:36:49 pm
come on boys, this is a nescac football board
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 21, 2005, 02:56:35 pm
Camper, there haven't been any games yet so it's a little tough to continue on with the discussion when there is nothing to discuss.  Digressions will happen, but I see your frustration/disappointment in the previous few posts.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: eph69 on September 21, 2005, 05:09:26 pm
thank you camper--- this other stuff is pretty boring--- doesn't anyone have info relative to their teams etc--- not the size of their team's roster or squash news
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: saul on September 21, 2005, 10:43:08 pm

  just wondering if folks could list their all-time nescac team ( go back as many years as you want).

 also how many NFL players has nescac produced?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: eph69 on September 22, 2005, 01:02:26 am
jack maitland-- williams
doug swift-- amherst
frreddt scott-- amherst
roger leclair (sp?)- trinity
ethan brooks-- williams
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 22, 2005, 04:08:54 am
eph: There is a bunch more. But I hope you're not going to ask me to dig them out.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on September 22, 2005, 05:56:13 am
Tufts NFL players.....Mark Buben & Daryl "Moon" Brown, according to their website.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: eph69 on September 22, 2005, 06:54:31 am
forgot scott perry--- williams
i agree that there are alot more
i didn't start this thread but it could be interesting
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on September 22, 2005, 07:52:58 am
This one is going back in time but any list should include him - Jean Fugett of Amherst
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: saul on September 22, 2005, 11:04:42 am
   beau coash ( sp) of midd played a little NFL
   
    ted rodgers (sp?) of williams played some
   
    joe shield trin '84  (roman gabrielesque qb )
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: eph69 on September 22, 2005, 11:34:53 am
i don't think ted rodgers actually played in the nfl-- he was on washington's travel/taxi squad but not the actual team
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: saul on September 22, 2005, 11:49:32 am

  if he' protected, i say close enough--especially for nescac purposes. i think coash was maybe on a taxi squad/protected with pats ( others).
 
 i think shield actually dressed for real games in lambeau.

off to class; more names please
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: camper on September 22, 2005, 12:32:54 pm
bill belicheck, head coach of the world champion patriots played center at wesleyan
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Garnet on September 22, 2005, 12:50:38 pm
Coash did play with the Boston Breakers of the USFL.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on September 22, 2005, 12:52:26 pm
. . .roger leclair (sp?)- trinity . . .


His name is Roger Leclerc. An interesting side note is that he is the grandfather of Bowdoin's current quarterback, Ricky Leclerc.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 22, 2005, 02:52:45 pm
Come on fellas....Does anyone else have any predictions for the scores this weekend?  Enough of all this squash and rules talk........season starts saturday, lets get some forecasts for the weekend.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 22, 2005, 04:00:36 pm
Bants 46-Bobcats 6....the Trinity players are fired up for this one, could end up messy if they try to win the game every play though.
Williams squeaks by Colby @ Colby 13-10....not sure if the Mules are quite ready to be at the top.
Amherst 28-Hamilton 10....I've never seen Hamilton do much offensively, or defensively for that matter.
Tufts 21-Wesleyan 17.....Biased towards the Jumbos this year.
Middlebury 35-Bowdoin 14....No clue on this game

The only thing that could stop the Bants would be if Ditka coached Bates this weekend.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: camper on September 22, 2005, 08:50:42 pm
trinity 38 bates 12
colby 23 williams 17
midd 23 bowdoin 21
amherst 35 hamilton 10
wesleyan 24 tufts 6... big surprise here
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 22, 2005, 10:36:40 pm
bill belicheck, head coach of the world champion patriots played center at wesleyan

did belicheck actually play football??  I mean I heard that he did, but did he get a letter? or play? or start?????
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: saul on September 22, 2005, 11:30:08 pm
  he played but i don't think he was that good based on the roast i went to in boston 2 yrs ago; i think his teammates nicknamed called him "speed" or something.
 
 fred "superfly" scott, amherst  '74  played w/ the colts.... sorry I just saw somebody said him before

 also,  jeff wilner wesleyan '94  played at gb and denver

 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 23, 2005, 11:42:20 am
Good picks (former) and (camper).....I still say Bowdoin wins @ home.....kinda nervous for tommorow....cant wait to see the final scores.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: petickperez on September 23, 2005, 01:52:51 pm
trinity 38 bates 12
colby 23 williams 17
midd 23 bowdoin 21
amherst 35 hamilton 10
wesleyan 24 tufts 6... big surprise here

bates scoring 12 on trinity?  puleez.  if thats the case it will be similar to last year wheen the team that scored the most points on trinity was tufts (14).  strange?  of course, tufts was pathetic.  but when the score is 1 milion to zero (give or take a few) at the end of the thrid quarter it is hard to keep your starters in beating the crap out of the poor sods.  maybe this year, with the slightly less dominant and experienced o-line (altough still very good) we will see what kind of RIDICULOUS statistics trinity's defense will post because they will actually get to play a full game!  although i guess i cant complain if they come out at the end of the beginning of the fourth
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Longtooth on September 23, 2005, 03:10:07 pm
good luck ephs!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 23, 2005, 03:14:14 pm
Tufts has another strong tie to the NFL....a freshman receiver is related to the legendary Papa Bear.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: saul on September 23, 2005, 04:04:26 pm

   hamilton's Jeff Hewitt ' 74  played for the cowboys....

   saw in paper that belichick's kid is playing football as a senior captain at Rivers ( MA ) as a lb. maybe wesleyan has him heading its way next yr.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: eph69 on September 23, 2005, 05:16:43 pm
will those of you who attend games on Saturday send the rest of us scores and roundups ASAP
thanks
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 23, 2005, 06:56:24 pm
Hopefully the SIDs at the schools will do so. That's what this is, after all, a news site first.

If you don't see a score from your favorite school, let them know you are looking for it here.

D3football.com scoreboard (http://www.d3football.com/schedule.html)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: saul on September 24, 2005, 09:15:11 am


   ephs69: assuming you're an eph, don't wait for that to happen. go to http://www.williams.edu/athletics/
to get periodic updates before you'll see anything here. also,  "the Colby student station (WMHB) will be webcasting the game, accessible via the Internet at www.colby/edu/wmhb. When the WMHB home page opens up click on Listen Live Via Webcast on the top of the page.


The Colby webcast can also be heard on the Williams student station WCFM, 91.9 FM and on the WCFM web site. Go to: http://wcfm.williams.edu/listenlive.htm. If you don't have Quicktime audio playing software, then click on "Download Quicktime" and follow the instructions on the Quicktime download website. If you do have Quicktime, then click on the play button on the bottom Quicktime player, the one under "Off-Campus Use Below." After 10-20 seconds, the game should start playing. If it doesn't work, try again." Good luck to all nescac teams today.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: eph69 on September 24, 2005, 09:45:57 am
thanks for the info Saul--- and i am an eph--- class of 69
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on September 24, 2005, 04:03:34 pm
Those who have said Colby is for real this year may be on to something as Colby thumped Williams, 35-9, this afternoon . .
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on September 24, 2005, 04:07:14 pm
Bowdoin over Middlebury, 22-21.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 24, 2005, 04:31:35 pm
No real suprises this week huh? (except for the score of Colby-Williams). 

Trinity dominant despite a relatively slow start (13-0 at half).

Amherst much better than Hamilton.

Colby... the REAL DEAL and they don't play Trinity RIDICULOUS!

Tufts better enjoy one of their few wins this year.

Bowdoin, needed that win for a shot at 5-3.


Looks like Trinity is gonna break that NESCAC win record after all.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: camper on September 24, 2005, 05:36:13 pm
35-9 colby win vs williams. no one can dispute the legitmacy of the mules now
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: nessy on September 24, 2005, 11:23:03 pm
No one read my post after the Colby/Bates Scrimmage.  Colby is for real.  Too many weapons.  The score was 35 to 9 over Williams, but the game wasn't nearly that close.  Colby could have put up 60 today if they hadn't called off the dogs after their 4th TD.  Williams got spanked maybe for the first time ever by Colby.  I don't see how you stop them.  Williams concentrated on stopping Stepka today by putting 9 in the box and  leaving the corners in tight man coverage.  The results were passes to 9 different receivers and 4 TD passes.  On defense, Colby let their backers take apart the run while playing a lot of 2 deep zone to take the big play away.  Williams put up lots of yards underneath, but had to run too many plays to score.  The results were turnovers and good field position for Colby.  There are still a lot of games left, but I don't see who will be able to stop Colby.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: camper on September 25, 2005, 12:42:54 am
colby vs trinity would be an amazing matchup
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: nescacdad on September 25, 2005, 12:59:09 pm
Hamilton is a little better this year than last but the Amherst game went about as expected.  If I remember correctly, amherst got great field position on a fumble early and got a score, the placekicking looks shaky but the kicker converted all his PATS.  There were two occasions whare Ham had gotten amherst third and really long, and Amherst proceeded to score touchdowns on the third and long plays, once on a medium long pass over the middle and the other on an 89 yard run down the sideline.  Very deflating for Ham.    I was  bummed because I had made the trip up to Ham and son didnt get in.  Amherst went on D with like 7:40 left in the game up 25 points and I had my camersa out, but Amherst continued with their starters.   I was bummed and so was my son after the game.  I thought they might have done it to keep Ham at 3, because of Colby had Wms at three(they announced the other NESCAC scores during the game) and Trinity was shutting out Bates, but turns out that there is a "JV" scrimmage with Williams today for the frosh and sophs so they were probably kept out deliberately so as not to exceed NESCAC stds.  I wish I could have known that before driving 5 hours up to Ham with my father in law. 

     I knew Colby was going to be excellent because they were excellent last year and have a lot of talent coming back including Stepka who didnt play last year.  The only thing I can say about Colby is that Amherst may have a shot at them if its low scoring.  As the previous poster noted about putting 9 in the box to stop Stepka and the run, Amherst won't have to do that, because their front three Kovolisky, Spinnato and McKee are all excellent, strong and have quickness, their inside linebackers are strong and their outside linebackers are quick, and the D is well coached.  Doesn't mean Amherst will win, but they have the ability to stop a good running attack playing "straight up".   On "O" there were a lot of dropped passes for Amherst, but a few were caught and the running attack looked solid.  Otieno isn't as strong as Fletcher Ladd, but he's fast.  Hannon looked good too.  Coaches for Amherst called a nice O attack, , there was one reverse and a nice screen like the one Williams ran against them in the scrimmage that went for big yards, in addition to the 89 yard run wehre the Ham d let the runner outside.  But basically  I think kept any other trick plays under wraps.  Holtzag the QB for Ham is a dangerous scrambler and they have a couple planned runs for him, too, and throws decently, but he doesn't have much of a running attack to keep the pressure off.   
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: camper on September 25, 2005, 08:30:08 pm
-post amended-
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: saul on September 26, 2005, 12:41:52 am
camper: you are quite the gracious winner! SIDs are notorious for putting a positive for putting a positive spin on losses--consider their audience.  the previous williams sid was a family friend so i was curious and  checked out the article.  I found it surprisingly even-handed.  the coach was quick and emphatic in his praise of colby ( " I want to emphasize that Colby is a good football team" ) and he didn't go on to qualify this. he lamented his team's play and said they needed to clean up their act. pretty standard stuff coming from a losing coach. I think you may have been offended by the statement to the effect of     'this week we played a good team (colby)  and next week we have to play a great team ( trinity)'. no disrespect intended there at all  and most everybody here would say that's an accurate statement.  if this is what's got you upset then you i'd say you're pretty thin-skinned. i think many people were surprised by the margin of victory- you included, judging by your prediction-- and come to the conclusion that williams probably had a bad day, while colby was surprisingly good. colby's leading a very charmed life this season in having just about all their tough games this year at home while all their away games are fairly easy ( bowdoin a possible exception). . . and, of course, no trinity. i know colby's had some good seasons in the recent past but nescac folks wouldn't confuse the colby program with amherst, williams and trinity ( perennially ) just yet. i hope that changes because the nescac could use some new blood. until then, check that glaring sense of insecurity at the gate and ' act like you've been there before.'
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 26, 2005, 10:03:25 am
The only thing that suprised me more than Colby's margin of victory over Williams was the post game comments made by Eph head coach Mike Whalen:

"If we play (against Trinity) like we did today, we could lose 70-0. We're going from playing a good team to a great team... we're going to go down there and give it our best shot and when we come off the field we'll know that we're a better team than we were this week."

Those sound like the words of a coach preparing his team for another sound beating. I can understand that you have to be humbled after a loss like that, but if I were a player on Williams I would want to hear something a little more encouraging from my head coach.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 26, 2005, 01:45:26 pm
Trin8-0:  I could not agree with you more.  The comments made by whelan were degrading to his own program....the NESCAC is so wacky you never know what could happen...he should be a little more optimistic about saturday.  With that said, it is clear that Trinity is going to be dominant again this year.  I was SHOCKED by the Colby score, but nailed the other scores right on the head.  I still think Colby will lose this year....Williams was an unfortunate victim of not knowing how Stepka would affect the game...Whelan obviously felt that Stepka and the Colby coaching staff would try to run all over them....they were wrong....now other teams have a better understanding of what Colby brings to the table.  If I remember correctly, Amherst in 2003 came out throwing against Trinity, despite the fact that Ladd was a great threat to run.....Trinity was completly suprised, and Amherst managed to put up a quick 14 on the outstanding defense that year....granted Trintiy won....but it is an example of catching a good team by suprise.  Colby has talent....but can they do it?  Lets see what their coaching staff does this week?
 
Last Week (my picks were)

Trin @ Bates 45-6 (check)
Midd@ Bow 14-21 (check)
Will @ Colby 24-17 (woops)
Tufts @ Weslyan 21-10 (check)
Amherst@ Hamilton 31-10 (check)


This week

Weslyan @ Hamilton 14-24   Hamilton finally does what they have been close to
                                             doing the past few seasons. Still think Holstag is a
                                             great player

Bowdoin @ Amherst  14-28   Good win last week for polar bears...but long trip
                                              to Herst stops the excitement.

Colby @ Middlebury 31-16     Colby impressive again...Could this be their year?

Tufts @ Bates          10-24     Bates marched on Trin and Tufts only put up 17
                                              against a bad Weslyan team.  Bobcats scratch
                                              their way to a win.

Williams @ TRIN  10-31         Williams mentally beaten...Very difficult to come to
                                              Hartford and play the Bants.  Trinity sets New
                                              England win streak record against program who
                                              set it 14 years ago.


Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 26, 2005, 09:27:12 pm
3-2 Last week, pretty close on the Trin & Amherst games.... as for this week:

Trin 42- Williams 7
Colby 28- Middlebury 10
Tufts 17- Bates 14
Amherst 24- Bowdoin 6
Wesleyan 0- Hamilton 0......neither team should win a game this year
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 26, 2005, 10:09:12 pm
I think the Williams' coaches postgame comments were more of a shot at colby than at williams.......

He basically said that they played like crap, (which they probably did) and if they play the same way next week they will lose 70-0, meaning to me that he thinks trinity is 40 points better than Colby.....(which may be true) but......

He should have just said that Williams played badly against a great team, and that if they play badly next week against another great team, then the results will be the same.

But Ill tell you what,  there could be a dangerous fire brewing in Williamstown this week......
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on September 26, 2005, 10:39:42 pm
I hope Williams pulls it together and plays Trinity well.  Its no good when a tradiitonal powerhouse team like williams starts dropping games by huge margins.  From the fragmentary anecdotal evidence I have heard I think williams needs to reevaluate its ability to have a bunch of key players thnking its ok for them to study abroad, chill out in the spring for the most part and then work hard in the summer months to get in shape (or any program for that matter).  I know that is a recruiting tool for alot of NESCAC schools....ya know, come to williams (or wherever) and get a good education, play on a good team, but not work TOO hard, and do some other extracurriculars as well.  But that sort of mentality will loose you games, and if they are content with that or think they can still remain an elite force in the league so be it.  But dont try to defend that sort of football program mentality as the core essence of the NESCAC.....football is football, and all the cliches apply here just as much as in the SEC.  When you bust your butt and work hard in the offseason, especially in this conference, it is clear what that does for a program.  Colby obviously got the message.

P.S.
I am sure most people here know but i thought it needed to be written:  Trinity just tied Williams New England record 23 game win streak set in 1989-1991.  Trinity stands to break that record this Saturday at the Coop with its 24th.  And who ended Williams record run in 91?  You guessed it....Trinity

I think its gunna make for some good football.  And actually, I hope Trinity beats the crap out of williams, greater good be damned.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 27, 2005, 09:40:09 am
hufsfarts: I don't see any problem with a traditional power like Williams getting a taste of their own medicine, especially if what you say is in fact true, and the reason for their decline is based on a lack of effort and dedication to the program.  Commitment to the offseason training program is one of the major reasons Trinity has become so much better than anyone else in the league. If Colby and anyone else in the NESCAC wants to follow that mold in order to replace some of the previously more dominant (possibly content) teams, I applaud them. 

I agree with bomber that Williams is a dangerous team right now. And there are a few reasons why they could possilby upset the Bantams.

1. There is much more pressure on Trinity to perform in this game that there is on Williams. As mentioned earlier, Trinity can break Williams' record 23 game unbeaten streak with a win.

2. The expectation of Trinity to finish undefeated again (a feat that may only get them a TIE for the NESCAC title)

3. For a large portion of their season opener they looked merely better than average. They were a few plays from being ahead only 7-0 at halftime to much improved but still bottom tier Bates squad.

4. Inexperience.  True most of their defense has played a significant amount, but that young O-line will have to perform (in their first home game) against a better defense, than what they saw in week 1 or their scrimmage against Wesleyan.

5. Williams has to be embarassed after the game they played in Waterville. Losing 35-9 to a team they have perennially dominated has to be a big blow to their ego. You know they'll have something to prove against Trinity.

6. The Streak. The Ephs have a proud football tradition, that no doubt had at least something to do with their current players chosing Williams. They would love nothing more than to deny the Bantams from breaking the 23 game win-streak record their school currently shares with Trinity.


With all that being said... Trinity 27-10

Priore will have the Bantams ready to do what they always do... pound teams with the running game, and execute an  efficient passing attack combined with a well prepared swarming defense.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: votejohnstamos on September 27, 2005, 10:17:03 am
The only better idea teams have about Colby now is that they can throw the ball, which hasn't been the case since 2000.  I assume it's  known, with the line they have and two of the leagues' best backs, though it's yet to have been shown after 1 game,  that they can run the ball.  I saw the game in Waterville and Williams may have planned to defend a run attack and were taken by surprise but I think what was more surprising was the Williams coaches' inability to make any adjustments to it.  Even as Smith (whose only interception actually hit the receiver in the hands first) was throwing the ball all over the field all day, Williams never changed their defesnsive scheme so Colby never had to change plan.  It was so frustrating for Williams that I saw two of their coaches yelling at each other after the game.  One coach was so mad he walked from the booth right across the field while the 4th quarter was in progress.  In their defense, they did stop the run.  I don't really know how you stop an offense, though, that can run two types of attacks so well. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 27, 2005, 11:01:47 am
hufsfarts: Nice to see you joined the commentary...If you look back several pages you will see that I made a similar comment on the off-season efforts of other programs, which makes all the difference between the best and the worst in the league.  There are alot of players in the NESCAC that do take long vacations, and really dont care about imroving their athletic ability (muscle mass, speed, and agility) in the off-season....the Trinity program has mastered the ability to hold each player accountable to the team and the institution by monitoring strength improvement from one season to another.....It all falls on the players....If they want to play, they have to show that they have improved from year to year.....work hard and you will be rewarded with playing time...and championships.

Votestamos:  Thank you for the update on the coaching problems in Williamstown...and I am glad you agree that they were caught off guard by Colby.  I think the reason it is so hard to go undefeated in the NESCAC is that teams figure out what schemes other programs are running and they pick them apart....That is why I still think Colby will lose a game or two.

Trin8-0:  I am agreeing with you on every point you made in your last post....I am nervous about this weekends match up with Williamstown....However, Trinity is in the "Coop", and we all know what it is like to play Williams in your first game at home........The Ephs can come in there with everything they have, but I dont see the dirtybirds "D" letting up more than 10 points.....GO BANTS!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 27, 2005, 11:24:41 am
By the way....When is D3football.com going to give Trinity some recognition in the National Rankings? I know they dont go to the playoffs, but anyone who has watched them play....or who reviews their roster....could surely make an argument that they should be ranked in the top 25...anyone else agree?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 27, 2005, 11:44:58 am
Dirty: I made the following post under the "top 25 rankings" discussion under the "general football" category.

Quote
Just out of curiosity I was wondering how those responsible for the top 25 poll base their votes on teams from the NESCAC. Trinity (CT) for example, for the past 2 or 3 seasons, has started the season in the "others recieving votes" section of the poll. After they win all of their games they eventually sneak into the top 25 usually finishing in the low 20s.

I realize it's not a very important issue because Trinity (CT) nor any other NESCAC school is eligibel for the playoffs because of their self-imposed ban.  But I was just curious if the voters have ever even seen a Trinity (CT) or NESCAC game, or if their inclusion into the national poll is just D3football.com's way of throwing a bone to the team with the nations longest current win streak (22).

The notion of Trinity being ranked among the top 25 teams was basically laughed off because NESCAC schools don't play anyone outside of their conference. Trinity was called the best divsion IV team in the country (I had to laugh).

If only there wasn't that stupid ban on football, because I do believe that Trinity (and other top NESCAC teams) would compete with the best d3 teams in the country.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 27, 2005, 12:37:33 pm
Haha, D4FOOTBALL.COM.....I like that.  You want to start it?  I am curious as well if any of the voting authorities have seen Trinity play?  or if they even base their decisons off of quality players and coaching staff....rather than just pure #'s?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 27, 2005, 02:35:31 pm
Ive seen a lot of nescac games and other top east teams play over the last few years, (Ithaca, Rowan, SJF, Springfield, Union, RPI) Trinity last year, twice two years ago......

I would say that Trinity would be a top team in the east, probably with Ithaca and SJF and a few tds behind Rowan.  And with the rest of the east, probably 40 points behind Linfield and Mt. Union.....

I think Trinity lacks the team speed to compete with top d3 teams.  The defense probably has 3-4 guys as weakspots compared to the top teams and the dline might get pushed around in that 3-4 they play. #98 is as good as any de in the country but the others are a little small and slow to compete with the top.

Leo is probably one of the best backs in the country but against good 4-3 defenses you need athletic lineman to block LBs and SSs.  Trinitys Oline is a great pass blocking and run blocking team straigt ahead but they might have trouble against some faster defenses...(Rowan, and the western teams)

I saw the SJF/IC game this past weekend.  SJF is a lot bigger than trinity and Ithaca.  They look like a 1-AA team in pads.  Ithaca though has 45 guys that can play with speed, and thats how they beat them.  Special Teams, depth and those intangibles are key factors that many nescac teams dont have with limited coaching staffs.

Trinity would be a top team in the east theres no doubt about that......
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on September 27, 2005, 02:52:37 pm
D4football.com is hilarious....perhaps it could be set up as a showpiece for NESCAC alum's greviences with the no post season play rules, with some stats and perhaps a petition section....

Probably wont come to anyhting but you never know
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 27, 2005, 03:02:34 pm
Trin 8-0.... I saw Johns Hopkins play a bunch of games going back a few years when they were one of the better teams in the Centennial and Trinity was very similar to them.  Hopkins never won their conference, but they also did not have a great offense.  I believe their pass Defense was tops in the nation in 2001, I know they didn't let up a touchdown in the air.  That year they got smacked by Bridgewater (VA) and they were a good team, not sure how far they got that year.  I'd have to agree with BostonBomber saying they'd be at the top in the east, but not in the country. 
Bomber.... I heard that Mt. Union only recruits D1 players looking to transfer, is there any truth to that??  If so, can they really be called a D3 team?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 27, 2005, 04:03:55 pm
bomber & former: I would agree that's a fair assesment. I would love to see Trinity ranked closer to the best teams in the East (Rowan is currently 5th, Ithaca 13th and St. John Fisher 17th) Trinity falls around the 39th spot in "others recieving votes" and around the 33rd spot in the AFCA poll (the Bantams are a few points behind Union in both polls).
Unfortunately it's just too tough to guage how a NESCAC team would do against other top teams.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 27, 2005, 04:57:17 pm
Fomer:  It is interesting that you bring up the D1 transfer issue about Mt. Union.  If you look at Trinity's current roster, there are several D1 transfers; Gennaro Leo (Colgate), Joe Penny (University of Houston), Bill Schweitzer (Virginia), Helius (UCONN).....last year we had two from (Cornell) and (U of New Hampshire)......Not to mention the fact that there are several other players on Trinity's current roster who could play very high Division 1-AA, this is what I have heard from some coaches at that level who have followed some of the atheletes.  With that said, I do not disagree that Trinity would struggle against the best D3 teams.....as a team....but when you add up all the talent and transfers, I would have to rank Trinity in the top 20 even though they do not play out side of the NESCAC.

In general, with 23 straight wins it would be ridiculous to cast a shadow on them just because they only play other NESCAC schools.  In 2003 the Trintiy Defense had the best statistical defense in the Nation! Allowing just 3.75 points per game.  Last year they were also ranked nationally, allowing 6.0 points per game....I dont care who they are playing...and there are very good offensive teams in the NESCAC.....the numbers speak for themsleves, give them some respect.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 27, 2005, 05:42:36 pm
Bomber.... I heard that Mt. Union only recruits D1 players looking to transfer, is there any truth to that??  If so, can they really be called a D3 team?

That statement is so false it's ridiculous.
1) Count the D-I transfers on the roster. You can do it on one hand.
2) Recruiting D-I players looking to transfer is illegal. It's called tampering.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on September 27, 2005, 07:42:23 pm
Pat, So are you calling dirtybirds comments false? Or do you have an issue with Trin's transfer "policy"?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 27, 2005, 08:05:49 pm
I have no issue with Trinity's transfer policy, whatever it is. I take issue to the unfounded characterization of Mount Union, one which you could find for yourself was false with a glance at the roster.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: saul on September 27, 2005, 10:36:58 pm

  pat coleman:
                       some ( 3 ) friends here at Amherst complaining that they registered but haven't heard back from the site concerning access. is there a backlog?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 27, 2005, 11:02:46 pm
Pat, thats why I asked the question....I had heard that from some former college players, maybe it was their excuse for why Mt. Union was so much better than them.  I wasn't trying to put a negative spin on their program, just asking a question.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on September 27, 2005, 11:18:54 pm
yea formerbant, mt union is a well established program that basically recruits itself at this point.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 27, 2005, 11:21:54 pm
Similar to what Trinity does now, when you win it's easy to recruit.....everyone else is left to hate.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: NescacAlum on September 27, 2005, 11:56:57 pm
Regarding Trinity being able to contend with the rest of the country's best, I believe that they not only would ,but rather be considered a powerhouse in Division 3 if there schedule consisted of teams of top 25 caliber. This is besides the fact that it is proposterous (and whoever votes on this should be fired) that Trinity is not in the top 25 according to D3football.com, they clearly are a top ten team with the second longest winning streak in the nation behind back to back National champions USC, not to mention the fact that the nescac is so limited with only playing eight games and not competing in playoffs where if they did they may have the nations longest winning streak.
       On a different note I was able to drive up to Lewiston, ME and catch Trinity continue their success. If there was any concern that Trinity would surrender their first loss in 2 years be concerned no longer, Trinity will win every game and by large margins. What I was surprised about was the play of Bates College, I know this may sound rather contradictory with the score of the game (47-0) and all, but Bates has many solid weapons and was able to march the football on Trinity and make a game out of it for the first half (13-0). Beginning with there defense, they have a solid inside linebacker who may be a first-team all league player and two defensive ends who are the best in my opinion besides 98 for trinity. They were also able to stop the inside run game with strong D-tackle play. They forced 2 turnovers on an offense that will not give up 2 turnovers the rest of the season. On the offensive side of the ball they marched the ball from the 20-20 with consistency in the first half. The QB might be the best QB in the league despite only throwing for a little over 100 yards he was consistently being sacked and hurried forcing him to make quick decision, but his arm strength was impressive. His wideout number 11 had big catches and was able to stretch a trinity secondary that is the fastest in the league which is impressive in its own right. There backfield was extremely solid showing great speed and size. If it were not for Bates lack of depth it may have been a game. Watch for Bates to win many games and blow up a tufts defense who is marginal at best. Score? 35-3 Bates
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 28, 2005, 12:46:45 am
Even if you say the NESCAC has the top football players in New England (which I'm sure is probably true), New England Division III football is dismal. The NEFC can't even compete with the top teams in the Liberty League or the Centennial, as the playoffs have proven. Western Conneticut, when it has been in the playoffs, has not won a game. Congrats on being better than those teams -- it does not make your teams Top 25-caliber.

If (and that's a big if) the NESCAC spent a decade competing in the Division III playoffs, it might get to the level its basketball teams have gotten to, as national contenders. But even that took a decade. And it requires a lot more student-athletes to play football than it does to play basketball.

There's a reason the NESCAC leader is not in our Top 25. It is not among the best 25 teams in Division III.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 28, 2005, 12:47:43 am
Saul,

No backlog, they go out automatically. Perhaps Amherst is overaggressively filtering its e-mail. They should check their spam folders or complain to the IT department.

Edited to say: I have checked the list of unverified members and none have amherst.edu addresses. If they're using free e-mail addresses like yahoo or hotmail, well, they're getting what they're paying for. :)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: empire8fan102 on September 28, 2005, 08:53:09 am
I completely disagree that Trinity would be a national Powerouse. I personally feel that the NESCAC is slow and not nearly as good as other leagues. Since they can not play anyone besides the cup cake schedule I guess we will never know/ They are a decent team but to say they would be a national powerhouse is crazy. I have played against National powerhouses in D3 and have seen Trinity play I have to disagree.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 28, 2005, 09:32:35 am
One could argue that if they were allowed in the playoffs, their recruiting would be even better with the kids knowing they had a chance at winning an NCAA championship and would get even better talent than they have now.  Also, Trinity's coaching staff is very good, I'm sure they would be able to do something against those powerhouses, maybe not right away but after a few games under their belt, they would find a way to win.  That's what Priore has done at Trinity.  They had a few down years, and when he was brought in, the program completely turned around within two years.  I think they'd be fine against the big time teams, but not necessarily the first time out on the field with them.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 28, 2005, 09:36:58 am
NescacAlum: Though I do think Trinity belongs somewhere in the top 25, to say that they would be a Division III powerhouse is going a little overboard.  I realized 23 consecutive wins is an impressive statistic, but remember a third of those wins were against very poor Hamilton, Bates and Bowdoin teams.  In regards to the streak, having an 8 game schedule is a blessing and a curse. Amazingly, Trinity hasn't lost a game since week 2 of the 2002 season... but, they also get a few "gimmie" games to pad the numbers.

I realize that Trinity is not responsible for the level of competetion they play, and they do still face several tough teams each year.  However, they are at a level now where they basically play a 2 game schedule (Williams and Amherst) and if they play well enough to win those two games an 8-0 record is expected. (Can you imagine regarding a 7-1 season as being a failure!?)


Pat:
Quote
There's a reason the NESCAC leader is not in our Top 25. It is not among the best 25 teams in Division III.


Why then has Trinity finished each of the past two seasons in the top 25 poll? Also, you failed to mention Springfiled as one of the top teams in New England. In the past few years they have been nationally ranked in the D3football.com top 25 and have reached (to the best of my knowledge) at least the 2nd round of the NCAA's.  Trinity has been at least as good, if not better than Springfield over the past 3-4 years.

I don't think Trinity would dominate the top teams from other leagues the way they dominate the NESCAC.  

My only question is, after finishing in the top 25 each of the past 2 years, why should they to have to crawl their way back into it again this year (assuming they finish 8-0)?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Garnet on September 28, 2005, 10:57:17 am
If they played outside the NESCAC, I doubt Trinity would do as well as some here think.  Way back in the day when I was at Union, we played 3-4 NESCAC teams each season.  Union was very good during those years and none of the NESCAC teams came close to beating Union.  I don't think I am going out on a limb when I say that it probably has not changed much.  Ithaca, Union, SJF, Hobart  would all have their way with the best the  NESCAC has to offer. 

Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 28, 2005, 11:16:18 am
Why then has Trinity finished each of the past two seasons in the top 25 poll?

They have not finished either of the past two seasons in the D3football.com Top 25. Check the actual polls if you're confused:

Final 2004 poll (http://www.d3football.com/top25.php?year=2004&week=16)
Final 2003 poll (http://www.d3football.com/top25.php?year=2003&week=16)

And yes, Springfield did win an NCAA playoff game. But that was in 2000. Been a while.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 28, 2005, 11:42:41 am
I don't think you can assume how teams would fair against each other now based on games that were played 10-15 years ago.

Trinity now recruits nationally (bringing in kids from FL, CA, TX, MD, VA, IA etc.) whereas they had traditionally only had players from the Northeast (predominantly MA, CT and some NY).  

They also have several D1 and D1AA transfers, which they did not have when they competed against schools who were not in the NESCAC.

Finally, Priore and his coaching staff operate like a D1 program (probably because many of the staff members have coached at that level, including Priore at UPenn and Defensive Coordinator Jeff Devaney at Georgia Tech).

Again, I don't believe Trinity would be as dominant if they were playing the top teams from other leagues. However, they are at the very least good enough to be competitive with almost any DIII team in the country.


Pat: I stand corrected. I was confusing your poll with the Coaches Poll in which Trinity finished ranked in the top 25 in 2003 & 2004. 

Also, the 2000 season in which Springfield won that NCAA tournament game may have been a while ago, but they finished 13th in your poll just 2 years ago.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 28, 2005, 03:00:06 pm
Alright, we all know that Trinity does not play any of the top teams in D3, or that they even play any teams outside of the NESCAC.  However, I dont care what anyone else says...the athletes at Trinity could play on some of the top D3 teams....If you could play the starting teams against the starting teams...Trinity would compete at the top of the national rankings.  As an entire team, Trinity would falter and probably finish 24th or 25th if they could go to the playoffs, do to the lack of depth....So in one way I disagree, but in another I do agree.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 28, 2005, 03:36:35 pm
One of the things that always amazed me was Trinity's depth.  To have not one, but two of the top rushers in the league the last two years is amazing....kinda like Priest Holmes and Larry Johnson.  They also have 3 QB's who are all very good and very different.  And sometimes they just say hell with it and don't even play with a QB and ram it down their opponent's throats.  It must be very tough for defensive coordinators to prepare their teams for a multi-faceted offense.  Not to mention their defense has been at an elite level the last few years even when losing players to graduation and injuries.  I think if they got to play in the playoffs, they would do just fine.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: theoriginalupstate on September 28, 2005, 04:01:21 pm
Also, you failed to mention Springfiled as one of the top teams in New England. In the past few years they have been nationally ranked in the D3football.com top 25 and have reached (to the best of my knowledge) at least the 2nd round of the NCAA's.  Trinity has been at least as good, if not better than Springfield over the past 3-4 years.

The one big problem w/ comparing yourself w/ Springfield is that Springfield actually plays an out of conference schedule with some teams that have traditionally been strong teams in the East Region.  In 2003 alone SC played and beat such teams as Montclair St, Ithaca and Union.  Springfield year in and year out goes out and schedules tough opponents (UW-Stout this year).  I know its not the players faults that they cant participate in the NCAA's, but in order to compare youself to those teams you actually have to play those teams.

Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 28, 2005, 04:16:49 pm
Upstate: I wish the NESCAC would expand their schedule to say 10 or 11 games, playing ALL NESCAC teams and one or two out of conference games.  This is what the Ivy league does, why not the NESCAC?

Springfield or Union would be a perfect out of conference game for Trinity.  It would allow everyone to see how NESCAC schools compare with the rest of the country and avoid the possibility of a scenario where two NESCAC teams go undefeated and have to share a title.

Dirty: I agree with Former, how could you question Trinity's depth? The defense that finished 1st in the nation in 2003 graduated 7 starters... the following year they finished 3rd in the nation! They have continued to produce all conference running backs each of the past 4 years. And I cannot think of a team (at any level of football) that has been even remotely successful, nevermind going undefeated, rotating 3 quarterbacks.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: gordonmann on September 28, 2005, 04:42:14 pm
Just out of curiousity, how many Division III playoff games have the Trinity contingent in here seen?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Tlm on September 28, 2005, 05:10:30 pm
I've said this before.  Trinity and some of the other teams in the NESCAC may be very good in comparison with teams outside of the NESCAC.  But we will never know so long as the NESCAC continues to play all their games in college football's version of a biosphere, a "separate self-contained and self-supporting environment."

There is certainly something going on inside the NESCAC biosphere that looks a lot like DIII college football, but we can't be sure so long as no one ever gets in or out.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 28, 2005, 08:00:36 pm
Have any of you posters seen an OAC, WIAC or Northwest Conference team play recently? Ever?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 28, 2005, 08:22:34 pm
The defense that finished 1st in the nation in 2003 graduated 7 starters... the following year they finished 3rd in the nation!

First in NESCAC nation. Without playing against outside teams, where you stand against Division III teams is really rather meaningless.

BTW, 8-0, the maximum regular-season games in Division III is just 10. You can only play 11 if you're part of a 12-team or more conference with a title game, like Division I-A.

The UW-Stout/Springfield game is a great example. This Stout team is probably the No. 4 or No. 5 team in the WIAC.

Gordon knows -- he is a Trinity grad and has covered playoff games for us for the past several years.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: empire8fan102 on September 28, 2005, 08:48:50 pm
Springfield does go out of its way to play teams out of region and Even paid the way for UW stout to come to SC and play. They want to play out of region and be nationally recognize. SC made it to the East regional Final the farthest and NEw England school ever made it and in 03 they made it second round after a #1 seed in the east ranking. Trinity may have a good defense but if they played some half way decent teams instead of COLBY and HAMILTON wouldthe defense be that good.

I wish they could play an SC or a UNION or Montclair ITHACA and FISHER then the Bantams would see what its like to play competition week in and week out.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 28, 2005, 08:51:05 pm
They were seeded into the second round, for the record. They didn't win their way into the second round. The committee hasn't shown a great deal of savvy in picking top seeds for the East.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: empire8fan102 on September 28, 2005, 08:53:40 pm
Correct but they did win 10 games against some good teams and ranked teams to earn the #1 seed so yes they did win their way in maybe not the first round but they did win their way in. 

I realize your not an SC fan pat.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 28, 2005, 08:59:56 pm
No. As a member of the media I am a neutral party.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on September 28, 2005, 10:06:33 pm
while i agree that the level of football in the NESCAC is always a hotly debated topic and that many people don't take it very seriously as a football conference, empire8fan seems to not even consider that a team like "COLBY" is actually pretty good this year. despite the rigid and arguably irrational rules the NESCAC has in place regarding playoffs and out of conference play, it is a bit naive to write off all NESCAC teams just because they only play each other. the debate as to how trinity would do against other top northeastern teams could rage forever, but the simple truth is that nobody really knows. everyone can speculate and make reasonably educated guesses, but the truth wont be fully known until the NESCAC allows out of conference games or scrimmages.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: gordonmann on September 28, 2005, 10:09:29 pm
Frank:

I have, but I suspect you didn't mean me. :)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 29, 2005, 10:35:39 am
I have actually watched Rowan play, I have watched Weidner play, I have watched Albrycht play (cousin played for them), I have watched the D3 championship on TV if that counts?  Anyway, I really feel that Trinity could match up with those teams...however, my comment on the depth of the Trinity team was meant to be interpreted as.....Trinity has depth in the NESCAC, but nationally other teams have better depth in the skill of their players.  I do think that Trinity's starting team and some back ups could play at the top of the rankings....but overall their skill depth would hurt them.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 29, 2005, 10:43:54 am
Albrycht?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 29, 2005, 10:59:38 am
Cruiser: You're absolutely right. It's interesting to speculate what would happen, but that's all it is... speculation. Hopefully someday the NESCAC will losen up on their views regarding inter-conference and post-season play for football. In the mean time lets focus on this weeks games, all of which could be very close:


Trinity                 27
Williams              10
They saying in Hartford is that "Wesleyan is for the alumni, Williams is for the players" This has never been more true than in this game where the Bantams have to opportunity to break Williams' 23 game win streak record. The Ephs play tough, but too many weapons on offense and a stilfiling D give Trinity one of the biggest wins in school history.

Colby                  24
Middlebury            7
If Colby wants a shot at 8-0 they need to be able to win on the road. This week may be their toughest opponent away from home.

Amherst              17
Bowdoin              14
A tough Polar Bear squad goes on the road and gives the Jeffs all they can handle. But the bottom line is, Amherst is still Amherst and Bowdoin is still Bowdoin.

Bates                  14
Tufts                   10
Bates takes the 1st step towards climbing out of the NESCAC basement in a mild upset win over the visiting Jumbos who looked average against a poor Wesleyan team.

Hamilton              32
Wesleyan             27
A high scoring shoot-out the past few times these teams hooked up. This time Holstag finally gets a win over the visiting Cardinals.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bantom1 on September 29, 2005, 12:53:06 pm
A new win streak record will be set this Saturday. It's a good thing when Williams' atheletic programs are measured they do not include Football as there is no comparison between Trinity's and Williams football programs. Trinity's is on a continual rise and Williams looses to Colby. 
We will give Williams a slight edge in academics but as far as well rounded student athletes, the Bantoms lead the NESCAC. This Saturday we not only win but the real betting is on will we be scored upon. In a few weeks is will be Amherst's turn and with this win 8-0 is a
lock.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 29, 2005, 01:23:10 pm
Bant.....make sure u spell Bantam right the next time you praise our academic ability.  But you're right about the win streak.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: pbfan on September 29, 2005, 01:35:12 pm
Trin8-0,

Regarding your predictions for this week end...  if Bowdoin is able to hold Amherst to 17 points, Bowdoin takes the win.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: saul on September 29, 2005, 03:36:50 pm

 i'm laughing my b**** off about all the "excitement" surrounding the nescac win streak.  guys, it's nescac football. since we sometimes talk against a national D3 backdrop, let's cite mt. union's 55 game win streak ( ended '03) as something that's truly impressive. with all this talk about trinity being a national power, i can understand why it makes non-nescac folks snicker. trinity's streak, like williams previous streak, came against lame nescac competition, not top national programs but beyond that, trinity has taken the low route to the top: take kids, in general, nobody else in nescac wants or s/would take. where's the level playing field there? what's there to celebrate in that? let's understand this: trinity fans are celebrating beating a bunch of football lightweights ( who don't even care that they're lightweights ) by, in essence, cheating in the admissions office. sounds like trinity's the rafael palmeiro of the nescac. it's a little bit like a grown man armed w/ sap gloves and a shive, going to an elementary school playground to pummel a bunch 10 yr olds so he can feel better about himself. he knows he's a loser in life, but damn he's going to win this bout, even if he has to pull out the shive.  i'm laughing like the big o.... you can't be serious! trin fans: do you guys cheat old ladies out at thursday bingo??!!
     
   

i like nescac football because my friends play on the team --and they are quite possibly some of the funniest people on this earth-- but whenever they get a little too full of themselves, i remind them that they're playing d3 football, and nescac d3football at that. it's like believing in wwf or santa claus; it's sometimes entertaining, it's just not real.
as for the guy who drove to maine (?) for a scrimmage, seek help....now!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 29, 2005, 03:57:50 pm
Saul, way to really put it into perspective.  Why don't you give the kids (All NESCAC players) for devoting their time and effort to the game.  I'm sure that this streak means a lot to all the players and the Alumni and if Amherst was about to break Williams' streak I can't even imagine the amount of trash talking there would be the week leading up to.  Are you really gonna bring up the lower admission standards again....believe it or not all Trinity athletes are "meatheads" and if you're gonna bring that up, then why don't we talk about what Mt. Union's admission policies were when they had their streak.  Don't get me wrong, I know Mt. Union's 55 wins is a helluva lot more impressive than the Bants' streak right now, but give the players some credit....half of them have never lost a game in college, which is amazing no matter who they're playing against.  And they all know that they play NESCAC football and are proud of doing that....oh yeah, almost forgot...Bingo is on Wednesday nights at the JCC.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 29, 2005, 04:25:13 pm
Saul: A few issues with you comments. First of all there is a lot of genuine excitment about possibility of breaking this streak for several reasons. The fact that NESCAC schools are ineligible to participate in the NCAA playoffs limits the goals that a team can set out to achieve. The highest of those goals is to have an undefeated season.  To do that in consecutive years is extremely difficult to do, by evidence of the mere handful of times it has been accomplished in the 120+ years NESCAC teams have been playing football. Also you can only beat teams you play. Obviously Mt. Union's streak is far more impressive not only in the length of the streak but also that they did is against the nations top teams. However, to knock Trinity's accomplishmet by likening it to a man assaulting children with weapons is first very sick, and also ridiculous.

My second issue is that Trinity has not cheated in any way, shape or form any NCAA or NESCAC recruiting or addmissions rule. The fact is, Trinity is a slightly less selective school than the rest of the NESCAC. Therefore, student athletes are accepted to Trinity, when they may not get accepted to other schools. It's a similar to the reason why the Univeristy of Miami accepts kids who couldn't get into Stanford (though obviously not to that extreme). And to say that Trinity is "beating lightweights who don't even care that they are lightweights" is disrespectful to the current and former coaches and players of those schools who put in a tremendous amount of time and effort into their respective programs.

And as for the person who drove to the scrimmage in Maine, he very well may have been going to watch his son or loved one play... so cut him some slack.  

It is certainly true that NESCAC football and DIII football may not be that important to you or the general population, but for those who have been a part of it there is a genuine love for it.

There is no need to waste your time writing post that do nothing but insult people and the hard work they do. I firmly believe that everyone is intitled to their own opinion, but if all you're going to do is degrade players and coaches and their accomplishments please keep it to yourself.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 29, 2005, 05:54:46 pm
Hey Cheif (Saul), your last post was absolutely un-called for...I am curious if you ever played football? or if you played anything at all? (Besides ultimate frisbee)  To say that NESCAC football is pathetic...well I guess a long and history rich tradition of competiton and hard work is pathetic?  The funny thing about your post is that you have no idea what it is like to play in Trinity's system.  We have earned the respect of atheletes that could play on some of the top 1-AA and 1-A programs, as several of them have transfered to compete with our (pathetic) league.  The only thing pathetic is your last post, and the fact that you really have no idea what your talking about.  Please do not respond to this post if you want a reply....I will ignore any of your posts from this time forward.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on September 29, 2005, 07:43:36 pm
the fact is, NESCAC or not, only 5% of all high school football players play at any level in college. to disparage athletes who are playing football in the NESCAC, or any other league for that matter, is uncalled for. if saul had a clue as to what he was talking about, maybe it would be easier to take him seriously. despite the different allegiances held by posters on this board, at least we are all united by the fact we all care about NESCAC football. if there is one thing we can agree upon it is that we love the game and we appreciate the time and effort put in by these athletes. everyone who thinks otherwise need not apply
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 29, 2005, 09:14:37 pm
Pat, quick question....seeing as though the NESCAC follows the Ivies pretty much to the letter with football and basketball, do you think if the Ivy League were to go to the playoffs, the NESCAC would follow? 
Cruiser.....couldn't be more right with your first statement, playing any college sport is a privilege that most will never know a thing about, they can simply watch from the stands and comment on it.  Let 'em do it though, it gives the guys on the field a little fire under their a$$ to prove people wrong.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 29, 2005, 09:21:55 pm
I expect that would probably be the case, formerbant10, but that would be a hunch -- not based on any particular speficic conversations with NESCAC presidents.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 29, 2005, 09:39:29 pm
If NESCAC were playing follow the leader with the Ivies, then wouldn't NESCAC already have gone to 9 or 10 games per team and to non-conference play?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on September 29, 2005, 10:08:45 pm
Pat, quick question....seeing as though the NESCAC follows the Ivies pretty much to the letter with football and basketball, do you think if the Ivy League were to go to the playoffs, the NESCAC would follow? 
Cruiser.....couldn't be more right with your first statement, playing any college sport is a privilege that most will never know a thing about, they can simply watch from the stands and comment on it.  Let 'em do it though, it gives the guys on the field a little fire under their a$$ to prove people wrong.

There's no way the NESCAC will sanction participation in the NCAA play-offs for football. The D3 champion ends up playing 5 additional games and plays until Dec 20 or thereabouts. That would be a very long football season -- as many as 13 games -- and would run through exams for many schools to say nothing of overlapping with basketball and hockey season.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 29, 2005, 10:41:38 pm
That's a big assumption -- that football will make it to the title game.

Does it bother them when teams make the playoffs in other sports?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on September 29, 2005, 11:36:01 pm
That's a big assumption -- that football will make it to the title game.

Does it bother them when teams make the playoffs in other sports?

The NESCAC is not going to sanction participation in the NCAA play-offs based on the assumption that no NESCAC team will ever make the finals. That would be absurd. NESCAC blocked particpation in all NCAA championships until the mid-1990s. Once the floodgates were opened, it was obvious how good partipation was for the NESCAC schools - the NESCAC conference is probably the premier D3 conference in ice hockey, for example, where Middlebury reigns supreme. Since that change, NESCAC schools have won something like 55 championships in the past 10 years or so.

Unfortunately the football play-offs extend over a full month unlike most other play-offs where the games are compressed into  a much tighter time frame and typically don't overlap too much with the next season (there's overlap between hockey and lacrosse, for example, but it's manageable). There are two-sport athletes in the NESCAC and there is a desire to preserve that tradition. There was an outstanding running bback at Trinity  few years ago, for example (Pierandri), who was also an excellent hockey player.

My guess is that it is the month required for the football play-offs and the possible 60% increase in the number of games represent imposible barriers.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on September 29, 2005, 11:42:11 pm
Oddly enough, there are two-sport athletes at other Division III schools, too. That is not a NESCAC phenomenon.

Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 30, 2005, 02:33:19 am
NESCAC's posture on football is solely about alumni management by the administrations of the colleges. The refusal of the administrations to discuss publicly the posture is also part of that management.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 30, 2005, 08:43:01 am
I must say I agree with Frank on that issue.

Any chance we can move off of the "NESCAC football in the NCAA" topic and talk about something that will actually happen? It's Friday! And there are some great match-ups tomorrow. Any predictions?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 30, 2005, 10:20:12 am
Frank....good point on the Ivy out of league games.  My buddy is the QB at Penn, you'd figure I'd remember that since they just played Villanova... I also heard that the Presidents struck a deal again this last spring to keep the football season to 8 games.  I don't think its fair at all for the players.  They work hard all spring and summer for only 8 games.  If the Presidents were worried about playing through exams, I'm sure they would take away the Baseball teams chances of post season play....the Trinity players were not even around for graduation due to NCAA games.  I guess they just don't want to mess with tradition.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 30, 2005, 10:27:46 am
My prediction......I arive at Trinity around 10:30....immediatley begin the traditional festivities.....and then watch two of the top teams in the league battle it out on the field.....I really can not imagine a better way to kick off October (besides winning the lottery)....I think NESCAC football has such a tremendous fan base (at least at Trinity), and an equally tremendous tradition.....it is a league that produces talented atheletes and some of the most elite business professionals in the country...you really cant argue against that combination.  

BANTAMS 120
Ephs         - 5 (not possible, but I will stick with it)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 30, 2005, 10:49:11 am
I'm headin up to Trin tonight to participate in the pre-pre-game celebration in High Rise.  The only thing that could save the Ephs would be if Ditka was coaching.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on September 30, 2005, 11:53:31 am
dirty and former: Your loyalty is admirable!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on September 30, 2005, 01:35:09 pm
Frank, I can't get rid of the sports itch....so I might as well scratch it.

Dirty, I'll see you there....prolly find me in the Hansen lot.

Trin8-0, call me when you get there.

Lets Go Bants!!!!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 30, 2005, 03:53:22 pm
Seriously....is there anything better than football?  Former, make sure you do some pre-pre-game celebrating for Trin8-0 and myself....Dirty Birds take flight tomorrow in biggest game in school history.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 30, 2005, 04:15:17 pm
Diryt & Former: After all this trash-talking, our boys from Trinity had better show up and play. Williams is a good team (though they may not have shown it on the scoreboard last week). If the Bants don't take care of business we'll all have some pretty red faces, and all those Williams posters will come out of the wood-works.

See you in the Coop fellas.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on September 30, 2005, 05:28:23 pm
I agree Trin8-0, lets see what tomorrow brings?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: saul on September 30, 2005, 08:41:28 pm

 wait, wait guys don't be all mad about me talking down d4 football ( 1,1A, 2, and oops 3 makes 4) and nescac d4 football, at that.  i was hoping we could all be friends....maybe drive to some scrimmages in guitar-pickin'-squeal-like- a-pig waterville-- now that'd be some fun, wouldn't it, boyz.  wait, wait, i want hang in the coop, too and get all worked up about how we'd shock the d4 world if only the  ( morally)  bents  could line- up against the likes of Linfield every year. we'd represent. i mean priore's not going to fly the coop for another sucker school any time soon, right? 

trin doesn't cheat w/ admissions....no, that's not cheating. ok, well, it's an unfair advantage, but its not tantamount to cheating....ok, maybe it is... a little.... let's not argue semantics, we got a win streak going....give me another beer....and tara reid's boobs are real, dude. it's true, my roommate  had her last night...he, like, said so.


Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on September 30, 2005, 09:25:45 pm
"Saul": Are you drunk when you make these posts or are you just that much of a horses-ass who spends his lonely Friday nights writing incoherent babble? The D4 joke was sincerely funny the first time we all heard it... at least a week ago. We're not above poking fun at ourselves, but but please come up with something original.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: gordonmann on September 30, 2005, 10:58:34 pm
The D4 joke isn't even original.

BedtimeforBonzo used in the Top 25 room last week.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 01, 2005, 09:20:06 am
Frank....good point on the Ivy out of league games.  My buddy is the QB at Penn, you'd figure I'd remember that since they just played Villanova... I also heard that the Presidents struck a deal again this last spring to keep the football season to 8 games.  I don't think its fair at all for the players.  They work hard all spring and summer for only 8 games.  If the Presidents were worried about playing through exams, I'm sure they would take away the Baseball teams chances of post season play....the Trinity players were not even around for graduation due to NCAA games.  I guess they just don't want to mess with tradition.

Formerbant, you know before you go there that they dont go to the playoffs so its not unfair to anyone...Its like saying that its unfair for those kids on that harvard undefeated team that didnt go to the playoffs...they knew going in that ivy league teams dont go, if they cared that much they would have gone to colgate or lehigh........
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 01, 2005, 04:48:54 pm
Two nice wins on the road for the Maine teams:

Bowdoin 16 Amherst 13
Colby 20 Middlebury 7
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on October 02, 2005, 09:56:05 am
A nice win by Tufts over Bates yesterday, 34-7.  Defense again played well, as expected, and the offense finally got it cranked up.  Sets up an interesting game next Saturday against Bowdoin, also now with surprising 2-0 record.  Should be fun.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 02, 2005, 07:47:35 pm
I played at Trinity under Priore and I think that he would be a great coach at any level.  He just knows how to run a program, period.  What year are you guys from Trinity who are posting here?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 03, 2005, 11:41:54 am
Very tough one for the Bants....huge crowd, but the game was out of reach so quickly a lot of the fans seemed bored and were watching the eye candy rather than the game.  Williams looked big, but completely overmatched...34-0 at the half.  Lot of Bant faculty and alums upset about no game with Colby.....maybe the Presidents will sign the 9th game into place after a 2 way tie.  At least one AD hopes so.  It's already in the budget, might as well have it be a game.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 03, 2005, 12:31:11 pm
A NESCAC Championship game would be awesome. However, I highly doubt it will happen... it just makes too much sense. And besides, unless i'm mistaken, both Trinity and Colby are 2-0 not 8-0 (at least for now). I was at the Trinity game and it's a good thing Priore and Whalen are friends because the score could have easily been 70-0. The Bantams are so efficient it's boring. And with so many talented underclassmen playing, this streak may go on for a few more YEARS!

Wesleyan is officially the worst team in the NESCAC (despite the 2 lopsided loses by Bates)

Bowdoin is for real.

Tufts always starts out well because their schedule starts out so easy every year. They'll win MAYBE 1 more game this year.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 03, 2005, 12:32:19 pm
A 9th game would be nice.  I wouldn't want to have a game that counts without a scrimmage first, though.  Maybe they could keep a scrimmage, but also add the game?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: gordonmann on October 03, 2005, 12:46:53 pm
I thought you guys would enjoy this column from the Morning Sentinel in Maine:

League Slights its football programs (http://morningsentinel.mainetoday.com/sports/stories/1985117.shtml)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 03, 2005, 01:41:32 pm
Thanks for the last post...it shows that some people in D3 understand talent when it is shown on the field.  After this weekend I can honestly say...and I hate to say it...but this Trinity team may be the best team from the last four years.  They are VERY FAST!  They have one of the fastest defenses I have seen...that includes other D3 programs.  Their O-line is smaller than previous years..but very efficient.  Their QB, Schweitzer, has a huge arm when he wants to let it go...but also throws perfect touch passes.  Gennaro Leo (RB from colgate) is a potential All-American...his catch across the middle from Schweitzer (64 yds) was followed by sprinters speed to the end zone....I think that made it 34-0? At the Half!  I am not going to spend my time arguing on this forum...but Trinity is a very good football team...congratulations on # 24 in a row...keep up the good work.

With that said:  I am 7-3 in my picks this year....I wil be posting this weeks picks very soon..anyone else have predictions?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 03, 2005, 02:19:53 pm
Dirty: We are all anxiously awaiting your picks so that we may be enlightened by your wealth of NESCAC football knowledge. However, we are not on the honor system here, so in order to say that you're 7-3 would mean you have to actually post your picks BEFORE the games are played.

This may be the best team Trinity has fielded in the past few years, but I also think their margin of victory is a product of a weaker leauge than in past years. (That's the worst Williams team I've seen). Also, I am selfishly hoping Trinity's reserve players let up a few more 4th quarter TD's so as not to break the season scoring record set by the 2003 Trinity defense (30 for the season, 3.75 per game)


(by the way dirty, I'm a legit 7-3 with my picks)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 03, 2005, 04:02:55 pm
Trin8-0:  Please go back through the previous posts....I have had posts every week on Monday or Tuesday before the games....have you not been reading my posts?  Therefore my picks have been legit  and I am 7-3 on the year. 

Last weeks picks:

weslyan@hamilton  14-24 (check)
Bowdoin@amherst 14-28 (woops) nice win for bowdoin
Colby@Middlebury 31-16 (check)
Tufts@Bates 10-24 (tufts suprised me)
Williams@Trinity 10-31 (check, in the first half!)

This weeks picks:

Hamilton @ Trinity 7-52  Trinity makes it 25 in a row, no suprises here.

Bowdoin @ Tufts 21-19 Both teams unbeaten, but bears are riding high.

Colby @ Weslyan 42-10 Mules beat Cards badly, pull out starters in second half

Bates @ Williams 10-28 Although Bates won 2 years ago...williams finds a win

Middlebury @ Amherst 17-21 Amherst needs a win here

By the way Trin8-0.....all of your predictions have been posted after mine? Not understanding your last post.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 03, 2005, 04:08:29 pm
just to make sure you dont think I am lying.....I posted my scores for week 2 on post page #17......you followed that by posting on page # 21.....with very similar picks? 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 03, 2005, 04:34:14 pm
I'm a mediocre 6-4 after two weeks.  Being saved by the family tie at Tufts, and the Herst is letting me down.  This weeks
Middlebury 14- Amherst 17....can't be wrong again
Hamilton 7- Trinity 42....Ham Tech gets one on the young Bants
Bowdoin 22- Tufts 21....Good win last week for the Bears
Colby 35- Wes Tech 6....Similar to what Trin did to em in lackluster scrimmage
Bates 14- Williams 21....Can't be 0-3, just can't be

Whaddya got Trin???
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 03, 2005, 04:39:05 pm
How do you check personal messages from someone at D3football.com?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 03, 2005, 04:46:58 pm
Nevermind, I figured it out.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 03, 2005, 05:26:14 pm
I read some of the posts above about academic standards at Trinity and Williams.  While my numbers would not have gotten me into Trinity without football, I wouldn't have gotten into Williams without football either.  Not a chance.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 03, 2005, 05:27:00 pm
It kills me to have similar picks to dirty (if we're still tied towards the end of the season I'll pick some upsets)

Trinity 46
Hamilton 7

Trinity's Freshmen and Sophmores would win this one by a few scores.

Bowdoin 28
Tufts 10

Polar Bears go to 3-0. Tufts shows it's true colors.

Colby 38
Wesleyan 6

Can't Wes Tech and Hamilton High just play again this week so we can have a Trin-Colby showdown?

Williams 24
Bates 10

After that brutal schedule in their 1st two games the Ephs take care of business in their home opener.

Amherst  17 OT
Middlebury  14

I have a feeling 0-2 Middlebury will make it close, but Amherst won't lose 2 in a row at home. Does anybody else think it's funny that "Tiger" "Lyon" is the quarterback for the "Panthers"?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 03, 2005, 07:23:58 pm
Trin8-0, do you think Priore is going to stay at Trin?  At first, I got the impression that he hated it there, but that was also after two 4-4 seasons and a team made mostly out of leftovers from the old regime.  After we went 7-1 my senior year, he actually seemed to enjoy it, and I'm sure he loved it when you guys became a powerhouse, and then they continued to play at that level after your year.

As much as I'd like to see him stay, I did always have the feeling that he could, and probably wanted to coach at as high a level possible. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 03, 2005, 08:03:19 pm
Glad to see you Bants woke up from your Saturday night celebration in time to post by Monday afternoon!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 03, 2005, 10:06:13 pm
Frank....I even made it to work on time after the reunion style celebration on Allen Place.  Good weekend for Williams outside of football, they dominated every other contest on Saturday afternoon.  Fun to be back at good ole Camp Trin Trin.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 03, 2005, 10:59:25 pm
former: Is winning such things as field hockey and women's and men's soccer sufficient compensation for being crushed in football?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 04, 2005, 09:21:43 am
Trin8-0, do you think Priore is going to stay at Trin? At first, I got the impression that he hated it there, but that was also after two 4-4 seasons and a team made mostly out of leftovers from the old regime. After we went 7-1 my senior year, he actually seemed to enjoy it, and I'm sure he loved it when you guys became a powerhouse, and then they continued to play at that level after your year.

As much as I'd like to see him stay, I did always have the feeling that he could, and probably wanted to coach at as high a level possible.

Bant551: After talking about this in some detail a few weeks back I think everyone came to the conclusion that the only person who could answer that is Priore himself. I've heard rumors that he is just padding this win streak until the right job (i.e. Ivy or big-time I-AA) opens up.

I can assure you he's the same misearble SOB that we all loved playing for. The only difference between now and his 1st two years at Trinity is that you might actually see him smile on Saturday's around 4:00pm. I agree he could be very successful at a higher level, but I hope he stays at Trinity for as many years as we can keep him. The program that he has instituted there will be the benchmark that all future NESCAC football programs will be compared to.

Glad to see you Bants woke up from your Saturday night celebration in time to post by Monday afternoon!

Frank: It just proves that not only does Trinity play football better than any other NESCAC school, we also throw a better party. 8)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 04, 2005, 09:37:05 am
Frank, while I love winning the football game, I don't think Williams' AD minds too much when he's accepting the Sears Cup for the past 8 years or however long their streak is.  They can win most, but they can't win everything.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: facultybrat on October 04, 2005, 11:35:28 am
Trinity is by the best team in NESCAC...to the point of 'something is rotten in Denmark.I would say that Trinity could compete comfortably in Div IAA.The students from my high school that get into Trinity to play football are C to C+ students with 1000 to 1100 boards.I really do not believe those admitted to Trinity could get into the other NESCAC schools.But this is Trinity's decision.They choose to play it this way.As an alum I'm more concerned about other things at Trinity-like the debt to endowment ratio.We turn over Presidents like a croupier in Vegas....but we win football games.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 04, 2005, 12:06:07 pm
Well Trinity IS ranked a little lower than some of the other NESCAC schools.  If Williams' standards are just a hoo-hoo hair below the Ivy's wasn't it a "disgrace" to the school that they were going to let me in with an 1180 and B/B+ average in high school?  Just because the numbers are higher than some of the kids Trinity can get in, doesn't mean it shouldn't "disgrace" the school when somone like me would have gotten in, while Trinity can get someone in with a B and a 1000-1100.

What do you want Trinity to do when it is still considered a great liberal arts college, but is ranked significantly lower than Williams?  Have the same academic standards as Williams for football recruits?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: admin on October 04, 2005, 12:35:26 pm
Hmm, brat, I'm going to draw the line at unsubstantiable rumors about an individual person's transcript. Don't start that.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: gullgrad on October 04, 2005, 12:41:12 pm
Congrats to Bowdoin, they are doing a great job up there and its nice to see the bears winning.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 04, 2005, 12:43:12 pm
facultybrat:  Obviously your screen name speaks for itself, but I appreciate the attempts to once again knock down a football program.  Please return to playing "Teken 3" or some other fantasy video game...let the atheletes have the pleasure in participating in real life competiton, and being proud of it.  By the way...have you ever met the transfer from UCONN?  Are his (apparent) grades from previous schools an indication of what type of person he is?  I hate the fact that everyone dictates individuals on their GPA....I will have everyone know that most if not all individuals in the real world dont care to much about your GPA, however, they do care about the type of person you are.  Cheesy....yes...but I cant stand what (facultybrat) just posted.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 04, 2005, 02:08:36 pm
NESCAC schools position in the U.S. News and World Report 2006 Liberal Arts Colleges Rankings:

1. Williams
2. Amherst
6. Bowdoin
8. Middlebury
12. Wesleyan
15. Hamilton
20. Colby
21. Bates
25. Trinity
(*Tufts was ranked 27th in National Universities)

1. All NESCAC schools have the same recruiting rules/regulations for football.

2. It is the Trinity College admissions standards (NOT the Trinity football admissions standards) that are lower than other NESCAC schools.

3. No one complained about Trinity having lower admissions standards when the football team was average.

4. Trinity is ranked only 4 spots behind Bates in the above ranking... Why isn't anyone upset about their standards?

5. The only reason this is an issue is because the alumni and administrations of other NESCAC schools are searching for an answer as to why the Trinity football program is making a mockery of the competitiveness of NESCAC football.


Is it an advantage to have a wider recruiting base? Of course it is. However, it is also difficult to recruit athletes who are eligible for any NESCAC school when your academic reputation is slightly lower than schools you're competing with.

The admissions standards of NESCAC schools haven't changed, the recruiting rules haven't changed. The only thing that has changed is attitude that Priore and his staff have instilled in the program.

The paramount reason Trinity is that much better than every other NESCAC school is because their coaches and players work harder, both in and out of season.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 04, 2005, 02:24:20 pm
I agree with Trin 8-0.  I was there for Priore's first three years.  I played offensive line.  It took about three years for the O-line to have any clue, whatsoever, as to what Priore was trying to teach us.  He has a very nuanced zone-blocking scheme with unconventional footwork that is counterintuitive to what most offensive linemen are taught in highschool, college, and the pros.  Its a quirky system that took a few years to catch on.

After the team finally got used to Priore's offense, it perpetuated itself, because the older kids in the program knew it, and were able to "bootstrap" and pickup the younger players who were forced into starting positions.

I know that my senior class was average at best, yet we were 7-1 and a bunch of seniors started.  Thats because Priore has a great system, and he brought in very good younger players who contributed.  There did not seem anything out of the ordinary about the kids Priore brought in while I was there, they all seemed just as intelligent as the kids in my class, and those who graduated before me and I didn't hear anything about the standards being lower.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 04, 2005, 03:17:19 pm
Is there a reason why my Karma rating is -3?  I am not being funny...I just dont understand?  Have my posts been that rude....ok...maybe a -1 would be more reasonable.

The last two posts were very insightful...it is clear that whenever a good team becomes great, there has to be a reason why they are soooo good.  I mean, USC must be recruiting kids that cant spell their names...and must eat raw meat while doing dumbell curls.  I cant understand why they have won 25 straight at the highest level of competition.....there's no way it could be great coaching?  Could it?  We better call them cheaters, theres no other way according to some people, that they could be that good.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Garnet on October 04, 2005, 03:28:49 pm
Bant551,

Did you go back and edit out your comments regarding Farley? 
When I read them, I was wondering how his comment on your choice made you feel about him personally and as a coach.
I ask because  some of the RPI guys say that the Union coach told them the same thing when they informed him of their decision.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 04, 2005, 03:30:27 pm
I'm willing to go even a step further and say that those great Williams teams won games moreso because of the quality of players they had, as opposed to being based on great coaching.

While it is my understanding that the coaches there had good football minds, for all the years Trinity was getting beaten down by Williams (my entire four years at Trinity), Williams seemed to have far superior athletes.  Maybe my senior year we got a little closer but ended up self-destructing early in the game, and it got out of control by the end.  Combine the athletes they had with sound coaching, and they beat us badly every time.

So now that  TRINITY has a great coach and athletes that are better than WILLIAMS, WE are the ones who have no academic standards and are breaking the rules.  Funny how that works.  When my Trinity teams were being manhandled by Williams, I didn't sit there after the game and pout about Williams' ability to put better athletes on the field.  It was tough dealing with a 2nd-game beat-down every year and moving forward afterwards.  My senior year was the only time we were able to put a good season together after losing to Williams.  It sucks trying to go out and compete knowing that you probably blew your chance at even sharing the title.  But we ended up tying at 7-1 when Amherst beat Williams the last game of the year.  But now that Trinity is on top of the league, they are being accused of impropriety.  Losing with class (i.e., "They beat us because they were better than us") is much harder than blaming the winner.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 04, 2005, 03:36:21 pm
Hey, I edited some of those posts because, as someone pointed out earlier, its impossible to verify them.  I had a negative experience with him, but I know that alot of people respect him, etc.  I was just trying to give an example of how Williams bends their academic standards drastically to get people in as well.  People don't have to believe that if they don't want to.  But he was going to get me in with an academic credentials that were far below their norm.  By a longshot.  My bad experience with him came after I told him I was going to Trinity instead of Williams. 

Edit to answer Union's question:

I ended up being very happy with my decision to go to Trinity, so of course elitist comments like "Biggest mistake of your life" about your college where you enjoyed four years of your life and that helped alot with life after college are pretty egregious in hindsight.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Garnet on October 04, 2005, 03:42:12 pm
Sounds like the same thing some of the RPI guys experienced with the Union coach.
I wonder how many coaches pull that move.  Pump a kid up. Try to get him to attend your school. Dump all over his decision if he chooses another school.
I never had it happen to me so I am curious how often it happens.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 04, 2005, 04:02:34 pm
It has to be difficult for any coach who has spent months making calls, investing time and effort in order to narrow literally thousands of possible candidates to hear a recruit tell him "thanks but no thanks". I had experiences where coaches were friendly and seemed to be genuinely honest when they wished you good luck. However, there were others who would not only question your decisions and motives but also leave you with a feeling that they wouldn't have given a damn about you even if you had attended their school. The latter tend to get a poor reputation and their ability to recruit eventually begins to suffer.

One of the reasons Trinity gets as many transfers as they do is because athletes who do chose other schools and are ultimately not happy there remember the positive experience they had being recruited by Priore and his staff.

The fact is that all the student athletes at NESCAC schools, and schools like Union and RPI are getting a great education and are gaining valuabe networking connections. I don't think we should be focusing as much on the high school academic record of recruits, but rather look at how the student athletes have performed once they're admitted to their respective school, or furthermore how they have succeeded professionally and contributed to to the betterment of society.

Should a test score that a Trinity football alum took when he was 17 overshadow the fact that he graduated from one of the nations top colleges and now holds a great job?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 04, 2005, 04:39:01 pm
Agreed....just to back up the last post.  I coached at my old highschool last fall, and we had a lineman who was "6'4" 320lbs and  a Division 1-A athlete...he is currently at West Virginia redshirting.  When he was deciding on schools, I told him to get in touch with the P.A. recruiter for Trinity (a good friend and coach) although he never really had his mind set on D3, let alone NESCAC, after he decided on West Virginia he told me that if things did not work out he would call Coach Priore based on the support and genuine care that they showed during the recruiting process.  He was thourouhly impressed by the coaches, school, and level of play...obviously he is a good enough athelete to play 1-A but that is a great example of Trinitys sucess.  In addittion, this player was an "A" student....
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 04, 2005, 07:48:30 pm
I love how everyone is portraying the entire Trinity team to be idiots.  There are idiots on every team, even the Ivy League admits players who are not academically sound....trust me I know.  So while Trinity may be able to dip a little lower than some of the other NESCAC schools, they can't do it for every player.  And every school does it for some players.  Just relax and watch the kids play.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 04, 2005, 08:02:43 pm
Trinity's opponents can, at their option, choose to compete or not to compete with Trinity. But at any rate they should shut up and quit whining.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 04, 2005, 09:08:35 pm
ok, Im going to bring up an old subject again, but you guys are all right about people whining about trinity winning but again, there were people whining about many other nescac sports in the past, there was just no d3football.com to hear it on...

Williams and Middlebury hockey, (and Union hockey before them) have always been topics of discussion regarding recruiting policies...at one point I think something like 25 or 50 percent of transfer students at Williams College played mens hockey and mens basketball...and its this transfer issue that more people have a problem with trinity than the admission practices.  Many nescac people feel that the true college experience is four years at a school...they dont want to see a kid go to UNH, ride the bench for two years and then go to trinity to finish up and star in football for 2 years.....

And youll see most schools around the country require a certain amount of credits at that school in order to graduate.  That dissuades transfer students comming for two years and getting a degree....one semester maybe but not a year or two, and youll see the best schools in the country have the lowest transfer rates.....

ok, you might say "hey this is america, who cares if you transfer, you have the right to make your own decisions, you have the right to go to whatever school you want...etc"   this is all true and I actually believe it but the nescac higherups often do not.  They dont want 50 percent of school transfers being on two mens athletic teams.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 04, 2005, 10:35:23 pm
jonny: As you know, that is what I say. But also this is America, and the administrators of the NESCAC colleges can run their schools as they damn well please, all without consulting me. What a bunch of morons!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 05, 2005, 11:14:02 am
It seems to me that this really should be a very simple issue:

Trinity can decide which student athletes it accepts. These maybe transfers, post-grads or those who may be slightly below the college's academic average. We have already established that EVERY admissions department in the COUNTRY in every division, make exceptions in order create a well ballanced student body and to help their athletic programs be as competitive as they can be. The other NESCAC schools can decide wether or not to schedule Trinity.

But again the bottom line is that no rules have been broken. So all that is left for opposing NESCAC alumni and administration to do is what they have been doing... whining and pouting about it like a bunch of children who lose at checkers and accuse the winners of cheating.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 05, 2005, 01:37:11 pm
. .. . But again the bottom line is that no rules have been broken. So all that is left for opposing NESCAC alumni and administration to do is what they have been doing... whining and pouting about it like a bunch of children who lose at checkers and accuse the winners of cheating.

No, the NESCAC will do more than "whine and pout." They will change the rules to rein in Trinity just as they in a few years ago with regard  to Williams and Amherst. And my guess is that the NESCAC will start by clamping down on the use of transfers. That's an easy one as it will have little to no effect on the other NESCAC schools.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 05, 2005, 01:47:21 pm
The NESCAC has already started to clamp down on all athletics.  The lowered the number of athletes teams can get in that are below the standard.  This was implemented last year.  As for the transfer rules, how can the Conference regulate that.  Do the transfers put on their application that they are going to play football or basketball or hockey.  Wouldn't teams be able to treat them as "walk-ons" and should there really be this issue in DIII.  If the students are paying to go to a school, they should get the privilige of donning the uniform of that school.  Its an honor that not everyone gets.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 05, 2005, 02:49:10 pm
.  . As for the transfer rules, how can the Conference regulate that.  Do the transfers put on their application that they are going to play football or basketball or hockey.  Wouldn't teams be able to treat them as "walk-ons" and should there really be this issue in DIII.  If the students are paying to go to a school, they should get the privilige of donning the uniform of that school.  Its an honor that not everyone gets.

Easy -- require that all transfers meet the regular admissions standards and maybe even deny transfers eligbility or require that they wait a year as is done in D1. Believe you me, if the transfers are perceived as a problem (and the fact that Trinity's QB and its top running back are D1 transfers makes that almost a certainty), NESCAC will regulate and stop the practice in order to restore balance to the league. Transfers are an easy target as it rarely happens at most of the other NESCAC schools.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 05, 2005, 03:16:22 pm
Each of the NESCAC colleges should stay out of the others' admissions offices - it is none of their damn business!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 05, 2005, 03:29:28 pm
Each of the NESCAC colleges should stay out of the others' admissions offices - it is none of their damn business!

They don't agree with you and they can establish whatever rules they want, including rules that involve intrusion into the admissions process!! And they will expand that intrusion if they deem it necessary  to restore balance and competition.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 05, 2005, 03:56:58 pm
I wouldn't mind a little more ballance in the league. As a Trinity alum and football fan, I was bored out of my mind last week (and Williams was expected to be one of the closer games Trinity played in this year). But I don't believe that increasing restrictions on transfer students will make that big of a difference in wins and losses. If anything Trinity will only win every game by two touchdowns as opposed to the 38-4 average margin of victory from 2003-present.

Believe you me, if the transfers are perceived as a problem (and the fact that Trinity's QB and its top running back are D1 transfers makes that almost a certainty), NESCAC will regulate and stop the practice in order to restore balance to the league. Transfers are an easy target as it rarely happens at most of the other NESCAC schools.

Trinity starting quarterback and tailback may be transfers but they didn't exactly come from poor schools (UVA, Colgate respectively) and I have heard they are both very good students. Who is to say they couldn't have trasnfered to Trinity without help from the football program? Be carefull, when using specific examples about student athletes without knowing the entire story.

Trinity won 22 games prior to Schweitzer and Leo (the players you menioned) starting on offense. Furthermore, Trinity's defense is the reason they haven't lost a game in over 3 years. And only one transfer played a significant defensive role over that span and he transfered from Cornell (another school that's not too shabby).
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 05, 2005, 04:05:32 pm
Trin....you beat me to it. 
Speedy....believe it or not, not all transfers are guaranteed to get into Trinity.  And not all of Trinity's transfers are athletes.  I don't believe you are stating the opposite, but it seems that the majority of this board believes Trinity can admit whoever they want as long as he transfers in.  As stated before the transfers that are playing right now are from very good schools.  The hoops team had transfers from Tufts (very good), BC (very good), then Quinnipiac and now BU where those students achieved grades high enough to transfer in.  It's not like Trinity is letting in animals as long as they perform on the field.  Let's get that notion out of our heads.  Trinity has a lot more to offer than just sports and a TOP 25 education.  A lot of the transfers like Trinity for its social scene and its family style environment.  If I'm not mistaken the hoops team got a transfer from Williams in the mid 90's.  He scored over 1400 points in 3 years at Trinity, good for 3rd on the All Time list right now.  Would you have a problem with him transfering in now as well?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 05, 2005, 04:12:42 pm
Quote
Trinity starting quarterback and tailback may be transfers but they didn't exactly come from poor schools (UVA, Colgate respectively) and I have heard they are both very good students. Who is to say they couldn't have trasnfered to Trinity without help from the football program? Be carefull, when using specific examples about student athletes without knowing the entire story.

Trinity won 22 games prior to Schweitzer and Leo (the players you menioned) starting on offense. Furthermore, Trinity's defense is the reason they haven't lost a game in over 3 years. And only one transfer played a significant defensive role over that span and he transfered from Cornell (another school that's not too shabby).

My point is that the restrictions on tipping can be circumvented via the transfer route. And of course a fair number of NESCAC schools are reluctant to admit transfers of any sort. It is an easy place to start and would be easy to regulate (require that they sit out a year and lose a year of eligibility or maybe deny eligibility completely).

It will of course require more than restricting transfers to restore parity to the NESCAC but I suspect that the NESCAC administrators can think up some new restrictions to accomplish that goal and that some are probably already hard a work dreaming up new restrictions.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 05, 2005, 04:16:16 pm
Trin....you beat me to it. 
Speedy....believe it or not, not all transfers are guaranteed to get into Trinity.  And not all of Trinity's transfers are athletes.  I don't believe you are stating the opposite, but it seems that the majority of this board believes Trinity can admit whoever they want as long as he transfers in.  As stated before the transfers that are playing right now are from very good schools.  The hoops team had transfers from Tufts (very good), BC (very good), then Quinnipiac and now BU where those students achieved grades high enough to transfer in.  It's not like Trinity is letting in animals as long as they perform on the field.  Let's get that notion out of our heads.  Trinity has a lot more to offer than just sports and a TOP 25 education.  A lot of the transfers like Trinity for its social scene and its family style environment.  If I'm not mistaken the hoops team got a transfer from Williams in the mid 90's.  He scored over 1400 points in 3 years at Trinity, good for 3rd on the All Time list right now.  Would you have a problem with him transfering in now as well?

You're missing my point completely. Trinity stands out as being receptive to transfers. Other NESCAC schools are much less interested in transfers (athletes or otherwise). It's an obvious vulnerability for Trinity and an easy place for the NESCAC to throw down a new set of restrictions. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 05, 2005, 04:20:17 pm
. .  I don't believe you are stating the opposite, but it seems that the majority of this board believes Trinity can admit whoever they want as long as he transfers in.   . . .

The issue is not what a majority of this board think Trinity should be allowed to do but what the NESCAC presidents think!! The Trinity transfers stand out like a sore thumb -- it's just an obvious place to start of you are a NESCAC administrator and you are concerned about balance and parity.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 05, 2005, 04:23:52 pm
speedy: You are missing the point...if you want to make this an issue of transfer students you are getting a little rediculous.  Like Trin8-0 said, we have only a couple of transfers....and in the past three years Trinity has dominated the league with only one transfer!!! How is this an issue?  I highly doubt that one individual on one side of the ball accounted for a 7-1 and an 8-0 team.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 05, 2005, 04:33:03 pm
Oh by the way...for all those posters who are knocking Trinity football academic standards....please check this web site out,  http://www.footballfoundation.com/news.  This award is a national award, and the recipient is picked from all divisions.....The interesting thing about this award, is that there are only 2 NESCAC semi-finalsists....a player from Tufts....Oh and guess what.... A player from Trinity.....we had better watch our admissions standards....now we are letting in players who are to smart.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 05, 2005, 04:34:40 pm
when you click on the website, go to "MEDIA AND NEWS" and click on the Draddy award posting.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 05, 2005, 05:05:27 pm
It would be ridiculous to limit transfers from other great schools into the NESCAC.  As mentioned above, the schools the key Trin transfers came from might all actually be better than Trinity academically.  And Trinity is very good, even if its not ranked as high as the other NESCACS.

Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 05, 2005, 07:13:09 pm
I dont think speedy is saying that trinity wouldnt be the best team in the league if they didnt have those transfers, what he is saying is that the transfer issue is an easy place for nescac administrators to set up some sort of rule regulating it.

and I dont think the quality of the school they transfer from is the issue either.  It has to do with the fact that nescac schools dont accept many transfers period.

Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 05, 2005, 07:36:46 pm
I dont think speedy is saying that trinity wouldnt be the best team in the league if they didnt have those transfers, what he is saying is that the transfer issue is an easy place for nescac administrators to set up some sort of rule regulating it.

and I dont think the quality of the school they transfer from is the issue either.  It has to do with the fact that nescac schools dont accept many transfers period.

Thank God someone understands what I was trying to say!! Most NESCAC schools are reluctant to admit transfers of any sort (athletes and nonatheletes alike). For whatever reason, they just don't do it. The odds of getting into Bowdoin, for example, are much longer for transfer applicants than for first-year applicants. So it would practically be a no-brainer for the rest of the NESCAC to say "let's begin to level the playing field by taking the transfer option away."
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 05, 2005, 09:08:07 pm
Break up NESCAC! It is authoritarian, domineering and controlling. When in doubt, it chooses control and order over freedom - just what liberal education is not about.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bobbyj on October 05, 2005, 09:37:25 pm

    I want some of what franks' smoking!

    I think the majority of non- Trinity nescac fans only feel Trinity is hurting itself by putting such a emphasis on its football team while its academic rep languishes.  What's so hard to understand is why Trinity would do this when the stakes are so low. Is it really worth further compromising your already rock-bottom nescac academic rating for the sake of building a football titan, one that's restricted to the small pond of nescac?  What's really being gained here? If Trinity were allowed access to the ncaa tourney, it would make only make only a scintilla of sense, at best.  But trinity is denied the national stage, so where's the sense in all this. Why drag your academic rep even lower for the sake beating up nescac teams. What are the trustees and president thinking? Has alumni giving risen in response to Trinity's football success-- while it's academic ratings and reputation wallow in the nescac cellar? I would think most nescac alumni take the long view that academcs trump athletics, especially in a situation where an athletic program is directly compromising the school's already poor academic standing. And that makes me wonder if Trinity's best interests are being served here; it also makes me question whether, given the context, such a misguided pursuit is really consistent the nescac academic philosophy.  Trinity needs to decide where its priorities lie.   
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 05, 2005, 09:49:02 pm
Frank, there are some who feel that drug testing is bad, and that if an athlete wants to use steroids or whatever, he should do whatever it takes to max out human performance.  I wanted to know your thoughts on drug testing.

again, there are people who say that steroids and other drugs arent even proven to be bad for you....

Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 05, 2005, 09:57:57 pm
Personally Speedy, I understand what you are saying...but I don't agree with any of this total nonsense about transfers.  Amherst has some transfers on their football team as well and their basketball team just took a transfer this year.  Trinity is not the only one doing this.  And who the hell cares if Trinity is in the NESCAC cellar academically, someone has to be.  They are still ranked #25 in the entire country for colleges!!!! That is an amazing accomplishment.  Clearly not as good as Williams being #1 in academics and athletics, but who else is.  The NESCAC as a whole is the best in college sports according to Trinity's President.  And just to let you know where Trinity's priorities are, one of the football players missed most of the Williams game to take the LSATs.  I thought this board was about football.  Maybe someone can tell me more about Colby and let me know if the first two games were flukes or if they are the real deal.  Unless Pat wants to start an academic thread, let's get back to the pigskin please.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on October 05, 2005, 10:03:57 pm
i can talk about colby and assure you they are the real deal. with a passing game this year, and a former all american(aaron stepka) in the backfield who is sharing the load with a 3 time winner of nescac rookie of the week (chris bashaw), the mules has a potent and balanced offense. add this to their always stingy defense and you have a team that would challenge trinity in the NESCAC this year. too bad they arent on each others schedule, it would be quite a game.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 05, 2005, 10:50:50 pm
The first thing you need to understand is that the football program is NOT the admissions department. Nor has there has been a decision made by the Trinity administration and/or alumni to make football a bigger priority than academics.

All that has happened is that Chuck Priore has worked, WITHIN the system, to build his football program. Trinity has played by the same rules every other NESCAC school has, Priore has just done a better job of recruiting and developing talent. Why shouldn't Trinity be rewarded for their hard work by winning games?

If the NESCAC changes the rules in an attempt to prevent Trinity from dominating in football, Priore will abide by them and will no doubt excell regardless of the changes.

Cruiser: I say it would be no closer than a two touchdown victory for Trinity. I wish Hamilton and Wesleyan would play each other again this week in Middletown, CT and have Colby just come to Hartford instead so that we could see this seasons NESCAC dream match-up.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on October 05, 2005, 11:05:09 pm
no closer than two touchdowns? i guess colby needs to go 8-0 to get a little more respect, understandable though, considering they are only two games into the year so far
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 06, 2005, 04:02:13 am
jonny: I think that within the confines of the law each college independently should decide, formulate and enforce its own drug policy with respect to athletics and otherwise and should refrain from dictating to other colleges what they do in this regard.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 06, 2005, 09:44:34 am
re: Trinity vs. Colby:

I'd have to agree with the person who said Trinity would beat Colby pretty soundly.  It may be true that Colby looks great right now, but Trinity is at a different level.  From what I know from observing from afar, Trinity is better the any of the recent undefeated Williams or championship Amhert teams from recent years (meaning the last 10 years or so).  I doubt that Colby is at that level - yet - in their first year emerging as a league power (if they end up with a great record at the end of the year).
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: gordonmann on October 06, 2005, 10:51:20 am
Here's some reading that has nothing to do with transfer policies or not playing in the playoffs.  :)

Roemer "Rocks" Amherst (http://www.amherst.edu/sports/current/football/1005_roemerfeature.html)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Knightstalker on October 06, 2005, 11:35:52 am
Maybe NESCAC schools don't want transfers because they affect the one thing that all schools seem to have in common, their bottom line.  Why let someone come into the school that was smart enough to attend another less expensive school to get core courses out of the way and then going to a better school to concentrate on their major, lets get the full 200k out of them instead of only 150k.  (prices are just used as examples and may not reflect actual NESCAC prices) 

Maybe Frank is right and the so called giants of Liberal Arts education need to do away with their elitest attitude (Note: elitest is used in reference to the administrators running the schools not the faculty, staff and students).  Perhaps if they had a cranialrectectomy performed they would be able to smell the coffee and see that things have changed a little in the US since 1800.  (Note: Date is completely hypothetical and used for illustration purposes only) (Note:notes are used to explain to nitpickers that nits need not be picked)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 06, 2005, 12:21:40 pm
Maybe NESCAC schools don't want transfers because they affect the one thing that all schools seem to have in common, their bottom line.  Why let someone come into the school that was smart enough to attend another less expensive school to get core courses out of the way and then going to a better school to concentrate on their major, lets get the full 200k out of them instead of only 150k.  (prices are just used as examples and may not reflect actual NESCAC prices) . .

Accepting transfers would not adversely affect the bottom line at all. Otherwise Trinity wouldn't do it since after all it is close to the bottom of the NESCAC in terms of wealth! Every school generates revenues based on the number of students enrolled. It does not matter whether the number of enrollees in a particular year is generated by transferees or four-year stuents making the normal progression.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 06, 2005, 12:21:46 pm
As long as we're making hypothetical NESCAC rule changes, I figured I'd waste some time at work and propose this scheduling scenario:

Divide the NESCAC into 2 divisions East & West:

WEST: Hamilton, Middlebury, Williams, Trinity, Wesleyan
EAST: Amherst, Bates, Bowdoin, Colby, Tufts
(divisions divided strictly based on geographical location)

Each team plays EVERY other team making it a 9 game regular season schedule. Then the two teams from each division play a NESCAC championship game.

It's difficut to say what the Championship Game match-ups would have been because not every team played each other, but based on straight records (tie-breaker is head-to-head result) here's what we could have expected:

1999: Middlebury (6-2) vs Williams (7-1)

2000: Amherst (7-1) vs Middlebury (7-1)

2001: Williams (8-0) vs Amherst (7-1)

2002: Amherst (6-2) vs Williams (7-1)

2003: Trinity (8-0) vs Colby (5-3)

2004: Trinity (8-0) vs Amherst (6-2)

Hey it's no NCAA playoffs but what do you think? At least it prevents teams from having to share a title like the 3 way in 2000 (Amherst, Colby, Middlebury all tied at 7-1) or 2003 (Trinity, Williams both 7-1) or the possible two team 8-0 scenario we may have this year.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 06, 2005, 12:34:25 pm
Not a bad idea....just switch the teams around in the East and West to line them up a little bit better.  Hamilton's group in the West and Tufts' group the East.  I like they way you think.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 06, 2005, 12:53:20 pm
hmmm I like the brackets....I will run for a NESCAC presidency, just so I have a vote on the subject.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 06, 2005, 02:36:25 pm
Great idea. There's precedent for this in the NESCAC -- it is already done for baseball, which has an east and a west conference. However, Trinity is in the east with Bowdoin, Colby, Bates, and Tufts. I suspect that this is a function of the desire to keep the "little three" together, all of whom are in the west conference. Here's a link on the way baseball is set up in the NESCAC:
http://www.nescac.com/sports/baseball/home.htm
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 06, 2005, 02:54:51 pm
That championship game formula sounds like a great idea.  Under that scenario, only two of the teams in the NESCAC have to face the horrific academic consequences of playing an extra game.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 06, 2005, 03:17:41 pm
Actually Bant551, every team would would have to overcome the unimaginable academic hardship of playing football for at least one extra week because of the 9 game regular season schedule and the two division champions would play two more games than they do now.

Speedy, I suspect you're right as to why baseball set up their format the way they did (keeping Williams and Amherst in the same division). As a Trinity fan, I would actually prefer that split. Competing with Colby and Tufts for a shot at the title would seem to be much easier than battling it out with Williams, Amherst and Middlebury every year.

Does anyone think a football championship game would actually ever happen in the NESCAC... or does it just make too much sense?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Knightstalker on October 06, 2005, 03:38:18 pm
It will never happen because it defies the philosophy of the NESCAC.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 06, 2005, 04:06:07 pm
Am I the only person here who had BETTER grades during the football season?

By extension, wouldn't it be beneficial for students like me to have a longer season?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 06, 2005, 04:08:54 pm
Actually, bant551, that's not uncommon. We hear a lot of student-athletes saying that because the discpline of the season forces them to manage their time better.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 06, 2005, 04:54:49 pm
Actually Bant551, every team would would have to overcome the unimaginable academic hardship of playing football for at least one extra week because of the 9 game regular season schedule and the two division champions would play two more games than they do now.
 . . . .

I don't understand why the NESCAC could not simply start the season a week or two earlier. That's when many other D3 schools starts.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Billsville on October 06, 2005, 08:53:37 pm
re: Trinity vs. Colby:

I'd have to agree with the person who said Trinity would beat Colby pretty soundly. It may be true that Colby looks great right now, but Trinity is at a different level. From what I know from observing from afar, Trinity is better the any of the recent undefeated Williams or championship Amhert teams from recent years (meaning the last 10 years or so). I doubt that Colby is at that level - yet - in their first year emerging as a league power (if they end up with a great record at the end of the year).

This is completely untrue. Trinity looks so good because the entire nescac is significantly worse then it was during the late 90's when Keenan and Brooks were at Williams. The nescac is horrible compared even to 2002-3 era. This year's Trinity team is good but not on the level of those teams. Of the undefeated Trinity teams 03 was head and shoulders above the rest back when Carillo was playing and not coaching. They had a 1-AA  oline that year. The trick to getting Trinity to win was getting rid of that horrible qb Ward who stunk up the offense for years. I remember hearing coaches say that as long as Trinity played Ward we never had to worry about losing to them. On another note, beating Williams is really no feat this year. They have no offense which falls more on the Williams coaching then the greatness of Trinity's D. Also of this years Williams team maybe 1 player on the whole roster would have seen the field on the 2002 undefeated team. Finally, Colby does this from time to time. Back in 01 when they shared the title everyone thought they were going to be a power but what happend. They went right back to 4-4 because recruiting people to go to Maine is incredibly difficult. Coincedentally I think Stepka was playing in 01, he has to have been there for atleast 6 years now. I would put the spread on a Trinity Colby game around 2 scores for Trin.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 06, 2005, 09:05:15 pm
Id say forget the championship game and just play 9 games and crown one champion based on that.....

and it was like pulling teeth to have the nescac actually post standings in the paper based on win-loss rankings.  I remember in the 1990s the boston globe had the nescac standings ALPHABETICALLY for crying out loud......Williams in last place with a 7-0 record was always funny to look at.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 06, 2005, 09:53:38 pm
Billsville, I respectfully dissent.

I was at Trinity when Keenan was there.  He was a great player, no doubt.  Williams killed us, no doubt.  Every year I was there.  Trinity had pretty bad teams during Keenan's career.  I watched Trinity get killed by that great Amherst defense, and I watched Trinity's new defense play a few times, and it is my contention Trinity's defense didn't break the record because the NESCAC magically sucks a few years after Williams heroically was undefeated in a much more competitive league.

I think that the players in the league these days are probably bigger, stronger, faster, and more organized than they were back when Williams dominated everyone.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: saul on October 06, 2005, 11:57:44 pm
the refrain of nescac football being a shadow of its former self is often heard around the amherst athletic dept. and friends of amherst football group. in recent years both amherst and williams tacitly de-emphasized football in response to pressure from alumni, faculty and even the student body. the departure of farley from the ephs only further hurt their program.

all the while that the jeffs and ephs dominated nescac play they remained as the top two rated colleges in nescac. now that's what nescac is all about. they definitely "did football right"  ( as the colonel might say ) unlike that utterly disgraceful, embarassment of an institution in hartford. people wouldn't  begrudge trinity its success if they were a highly rated nescac institution adhering to the same admissions standards as those schools ranked above it. trinity has leveraged its low ( the lowest ) standards of admissions into league dominance and that's what most nescac folks find so reprehensible. ask any coach in the country--- hell, go ask tara reid-- the most critical factor in building any football program and he'll say it's recruiting. and low admissions standards provide that edge. coaching, chiefly x and o's, helps but only really becomes a factor when there's league parity-- and there's no parity in nescac these past few years, so i'm not buying into the priore's- a-great- coach arguement. i could coach trinity to a nescac title this year, and I'm a freshman. priore maybe a gifted recruiter but compared to whom in nescac. how many fierce recruiting battles does he have to face each year against fellow nescac coaches? probably not many;  the bulk of trinity's team would be deemed inadmissible to other nescac schools so i'm not sure you can be tabbed a super recuiter if there's nobody who can compete against you.

as to the nine game format, that's previously been proposed by amherst and others but the presidents have been reluctant to add on to the front end of the season because of  concerns over liability-- namely, football players on campuses for longer periods while school is not in session: an invitation to mayhem in the eyes of some. the idea of adding the extra game to the end of the season was problematic because it's been argued that it hurts two-sport athletes from participating fully in pre-season stuff with their winter teams. sadly, there are now less two-sport athletes than in the past, still for schools like amherst, williams and midd the ability to offer a potential student-athlete considering going ivy the option of playing two sports has been an a recruiting advantage in the past, one they may not want to relinquish anytime soon. also, amherst and williams consider their entire seasons to revolve around their season-ending game--nescac's best rivalry-- so they really aren't interested in playing games after their annual contest.

given these scheduling constraints, the only option appears to play make the first scrimmage each team currently plays as the "nineth" game although most coaches feel they barely have adequate time to prep their teams as it is now. most of these games would surely be ugly, but it's probably the best way to accomodate a nine game schedule. with a nine game slate, playoffs become superfluous.       
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 07, 2005, 12:24:23 am
saul: Why don't you shut up and just play the games - or alternatively, should you choose, don't play the games - but at any rate shut up. You are embarassing yourself and the members of NESCAC.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 07, 2005, 01:12:38 am
Thats funny Saul, I was under the impression that Trinity had the same ranking as it did when I was being recruited (top 25 academically, but below the other NESCAC schools nevertheless), that it has now.  But somehow I also remember having one 5-3 seasons, followed by two 4-4 seasons.

In the 5-3 season, we needed a HUGE game from a freshman tight end who ended up transferring to UMASS in order to beat HAMILTON!  We just didn't have the players, despite our lower academic ranking. 

Why is Trinity so dominant now?  Well, for one thing, they are great recruiters.  Keep in mind that through working their tails off (and Trinity spends MUCH more time recruiting nationally than the other NESCAC schools), Trinity's coaches put themselves into a position to simply have more ACADEMICALLY QUALIFIED PLAYERS TO RECRUIT FROM!!!

Until someone here shows me some kind of evidence that Trinity has lowered its standards in recent years (you know, as opposed to doing a great job recruiting, putting in more hours, and generally out-coaching the opposition), there is no other explanation aside from jealousy.  Or maybe its wishful thinking.  Although I have never myself tried to come up with excuses when my team got creamed, maybe it feels good to complain about something.  That would have helped out alot my four years at Trinity when Williams beat us so badly every year.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 07, 2005, 06:38:26 am
bant, I believe everything you say but you cant really prove that Trinity "spends much more time recruiting nationally", or "put in more hours", or "generally outcoach the opposition".
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Knightstalker on October 07, 2005, 10:18:20 am
in the eyes of some. the idea of adding the extra game to the end of the season was problematic because it's been argued that it hurts two-sport athletes from participating fully in pre-season stuff with their winter teams.

Saul, if you are a student at Amherst as your post seems to imply, it would indicate that perhaps Amherst has relaxed its admission requirements.  How about some spacing and capitalization so that it is easier to follow your train of thought.

The arguement that extending the season would impact two sport athletes seems to only be used to justify limiting the football season.  I am sure that there are many NESCAC athletes who play winter sports that miss out on preseason activities in the spring sports they play, and possibly miss games especially in baseball and softball.  Maybe the NESCAC presidents realize that they can recruit a national power in basketball that will win championships and make the conference schools look even better but they can't compete with schools like Linfield, Mt. Union, Rowan etc on the championship level.  Try this, instead of regurgitating the party line about added games, talk to the players and ask them if they would like to play a school like Rowan or Muhlenberg or Johns Hopkins and participate in the post season, I am fairly sure the majority would.

Your attitude towards Trinity stinks of elitism and you probably refuse to believe that there are state colleges and universities that are just as good as any NESCAC school and have admission standards that are just as strict.  I also know for a fact that Amherst will relax their admission standards for the right price.  The younger brother of a friend was admitted to Amherst and graduated.  What makes this interesting is the kid is lazy, stupid (I mean really stupid, can't pour sand out of his shoe if the instructions were written on the heel stupid if you get the meaning) undisciplined and a malcontent.  Daddy (Amherst alum) just donated a little extra on top of tuition and sonny boy gets a diploma.  So don't go throwing dirt on another conference school until you know all your closets are clean.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Billsville on October 07, 2005, 10:54:30 am
Team by team the whole Nescac is worse then in 2000 excluding Trinity. Midd used to be powerful and split the title in 01 and now after the younger Keenan left they are far below where they were. Williams I already covered but they are barely competitive anymore. Weslyen hasn't been any good since they beat Williams in the shootout against Keenan in 2000. Hamiton as bad as always. Tufts is way worse then 02 or 01 seasons. The Maine teams might have a good year this year but it will never last because you can't get people to go to Maine.

These cheap shots at Trinity are sad. They are recruiting and playing better then the rest of the league. The drop from 21 to 14 tips a year has hurt Williams and Amherst but they need to deal with it. Priorie has do a terrific job. I don't think very high of him as a person, adding his picture to the pictures of the football captians in the locker room hallways seems like a lowlife move, but you can't say anything about what he has done on the field.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 07, 2005, 12:22:03 pm
Utah: I agree there appear to be too many unsubstantialed claims on both sides of this discussion. The only thing that you can use to make an argument either way are the numbers:

U.S. News & World Report Liberal Arts College Rankings

2000                                                                     2006
2. Amherst                                                            1. Williams
3. Williams                                                             2. Amherst
5. Middlebury                                                         6. Bowdoin
9. Bowdoin                                                            8. Middlebury
10. Wesleyan                                                        12. Wesleyan
18. Colby                                                              15. Hamilton
18. Hamilton                                                          20. Colby
22. Trinity                                                             21. Bates
23. Bates                                                              25. Trinity

Since 2000 all of the NESCAC schools have remained in the top 25 nationally and have only raised or fallen 2 or 3 spots at the most. Also, within the league there has been very little change in the rankings. Williams and Amherst are the top 2. Middlebury, Bowdoin and Wesleyan are next. Colby and Hamilton are comparable, as are Trinity and Bates.

Saul: I find it convenient that Amherst and Williams suddenly stopped caring about football once Trinity started beating them. Your excuses, like your posts are pathetic.

According to your logic, shouldn't Bates and even Hamilton have been dominating the league the past 5 years? Because as everyone knows, anyone who doesn't go to Williams or Amherst is a savage who can barely right there own name, but who sure can play some football!

Are you upset that Trinity, despite droping 3 spots in the U.S. News & World Report rankings, is still in the NESCAC or is it Williams and Amherst losing by 3 touchdowns to Trinity over the past few years?

Billsville: You have a valid argument that the league may not be as strong, even as recently as 2003. However, Trinity isn't just winning their games, they are dominating. The Williams teams of the '90s or the '03 Trinity team may have had better individual players, but there has been no better TEAMS than the ones Trinity has fielded over the past few years. The numbers speak for themselves: 24 consecutive wins by an AVERAGE score of 33-6.

All NESCAC schools are great academic institutions. And all the teams are playing by the same rules. I won't say Trinity coaching staff is working harder than the other programs to find and recruit academically eligible candidates... but it does seem that they are better at it.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Garnet on October 07, 2005, 12:26:58 pm
Funny thing is that the NESCAC tries to mirror the Ivy League and they do.  Right down to this type of argument.

Everyone in the Ivy feels the same way about Penn that the NESCACers feel about Trinity. For almost all the same reasons listed above.

Coincidence?

Common factors....Bagnoli at Penn...Priorie at Trinity....hmmm
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 07, 2005, 12:30:34 pm
trin8-0, you are right, and even those numbers from usnews report are simply from a magizine that puts out lists to sell more magazines....even that usnews list is just a bunch of opinions....

for instance, Williams has the ugliest girls in the country.  Not a fact, but my own personal experiences lead me to that conclusion.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Garnet on October 07, 2005, 12:32:35 pm
JU,
Have you BEEN to the Union campus?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on October 07, 2005, 12:44:28 pm
i wont list reasons why, but it does seem that there is something a bit fishy in hartford. i wont take away from the arguments about work ethic, good coaching and good recruiting, mainly because i just dont know. if one is looking in from the outside, it is hard to think that trinity is dominating the league now just because of truly honorable and estimable tactics. this is not to say they are letting any football player with a pulse into the school, but such dominance for such a long period of time which happened to just materialize one year after some years of middling records would suggest that compromises within admissions have been made. if trinity wants to do this, that is their prerogative. while it is easier for them to do because they are the lowest ranked school in the NESCAC (but still a top 30 school, lest we forget), it puts the onus on the rest of the NESCAC. the message trinity is sending is somewhere along the lines of "to have a great football team, just let a few lesser qualified athletes slip through the cracks". once again, priore may be a great coach and recruiter and their players may work hard, but i refuse to believe that these are the sole reasons provided for trinity's one sided dominance of the NESCAC for 24 or how many ever games.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 07, 2005, 01:51:47 pm
Thats fine, you are entitled to your opinion.  I'd just like some numbers or specific examples of NAMES of players who are at Trinity now, but that wouldn't have gotten in during the Miller coaching era.  Simple, bold-faced and unsubstantiated allegations, without more, are simply not enough to convince people that something is fishy in Hartford.

Ethan Brooks is in the NFL.  Sean Keenan got a look from the NFL.  By your logic (great teams/great players = recruiting violations or create an aura of "fishiness"), Williams must have been running a corrupt program that lowered its standards.

Why is that logic wrong?  Well, for one thing, I don't know A THING about Brooks other than that he was good enough to play in the NFL.  Could have been an A student who did great on the SATs.  From what I know, Keenan was a great student-athlete who chose the NESCAC so that he would be able to play 2 sports.

But when Williams enjoys amazing success at football with AN NFL PLAYER, AND A PLAYER WHO ALMOST WAS AN NFL PLAYER, magically noone thinks that something is "fishy".

Why are Trinity's great athletic successes making people cry foul, while Williams rolls through the league with 2 players who get looks from NFL teams, and they don't get criticized.

Again, under the logic that seems to be prevailing amongst the Trin-haters in here, Trinity's success and great athletes mean Trinity is corrupt.  But it is hypocritical.  Williams can have great success and 2 NFL-types and everything is magically OK. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 07, 2005, 02:05:39 pm
Utah: Once again, you've nailed it... Williams girls are butt-ugly!

Yet another recruiting advantage for Trinity!

(those cheaters)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 07, 2005, 02:15:54 pm
Sean Keenan was actually on the active roster for at least one game in the NFL. I would say that counts.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on October 07, 2005, 02:18:55 pm
a word about williams when they dominated the league: a good friend of mine played for williams during the undefeated years and he even tells those whom he speaks to that he had no business getting into williams, the fact they lowered academic standards for those years is the reason he got into the school. mind you, he was a very good student,but his profile did not match that of the typical williams admit. schools do this periodically, lowering standards for a few years then catching flak and tightening up again. at some point a new team will emerge and this debate will start anew
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 07, 2005, 02:29:51 pm
knightstalker: The original image did not involve sand and a shoe but piss and a boot. You NESCACers want to clean everything up!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 07, 2005, 02:39:53 pm
What are the chances of a regular applicant getting into Williams with an 1180 SAT and a B/B+ average in high school (without AP credits or anything special like that)?  I was a 6'0" lineman who didn't even get playing time (and only a little) until my junior year.  Imagine the strings Williams would have pulled if I was a REAL prospect!

The hypocrisy when it comes to different schools in the NESCAC doing the EXACT SAME THING is extremely annoying.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 07, 2005, 02:40:26 pm
Frank, stop trying to set rules on this board on what people should and shouldnt do!!!!!!

I know you like authority and such but...
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 07, 2005, 02:43:36 pm
It seems to me that several individuals believe that Trinity is placing athletes on the field that could barley decipher the simplest of mathematical equations, or would struggle to finish a children's book like Dr. Sues.  In reality, Trinity football players attend class and participate in academic areas, such as, Micro-Economics, International Political Economy, Mechanical engeneering, Accounting, Macro-economics, etc.... My point is, Trinity may have the "lowest" admissions standards in the NESCAC...but fellas...if you are accepted to an institution like Trinity you are still going to be exposed to some very difficult and highly demanding educational requirements.  I will not allow individuals like "Saul" (clearly an elitest..who thinks Amherst is Gods gift to academics) trash talk players at other institutions who study challenging areas of academics.  Good luck in the "Real World", 4 more years and you will understand that your diploma will only get you so far.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 07, 2005, 02:45:04 pm
speaking of which....I should find mine
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Knightstalker on October 07, 2005, 02:47:14 pm
Frank,
A: I am not an NESCACer
B: I know the original version, I learned it at my daddy' knee along with what I could go do in my hat.
C: I cleaned it up for the board, because I am just a sensitive guy.   ;D
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 07, 2005, 03:21:31 pm
a word about williams when they dominated the league: a good friend of mine played for williams during the undefeated years and he even tells those whom he speaks to that he had no business getting into williams, the fact they lowered academic standards for those years is the reason he got into the school. mind you, he was a very good student,but his profile did not match that of the typical williams admit. schools do this periodically, lowering standards for a few years then catching flak and tightening up again. at some point a new team will emerge and this debate will start anew

And that's why the NESCAC put in place new rules that limited the number of football "tips" per school and limited the size of rosters to 75. And that's why the win-loss records at William and Amherst are now more in line with those of other NESCAC schools (except for Trinity). And as night follows day, new rules will be put in place to bring Trinity back within the fold as such gross competitive imbalances will not be tolerated by NESCAC.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Knightstalker on October 07, 2005, 03:36:16 pm
We would rather have a conference of mediocre teams rather than a conference with two or three powerful teams. 

Why do their rules for basketball seem different than the rules for football?  Is it because many people in the administration of the schools consider football a Neanderthal sport and would eliminate it in a heartbeat if they knew that the Alumnae (never can remember which is appropriate for what circumstance) would accept it and not pull major dollars away from the schools out of anger for dropping football?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 07, 2005, 04:11:24 pm
Don't need a football conference at all. No recruiting, admission, scheduling or squad-size rules. Just schedule teams. If to a sufficient degree a college doesn't like what a potential opponent is doing on the field, at the admissions office or otherwise, then don't schedule it - schedule another opponent.  The schedule can be as long or as short as a college likes. The games can be played when and where the participants agree. The squad size can be what the college likes. The college's admissions practices can be what the college likes. Flexibility, but don't impose one college's standards on another. That is how it worked well for the current NESCAC schools for ages before the advent of NESCAC.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 07, 2005, 04:16:16 pm
I 100% believe their is a NESCAC bias against football. They ban football from the NCAA playoffs, they refuse to allow the schools the opportunity to even play all the teams in the conference (a move that will come back to bite them this year if Trinity and Colby run the table). As mentioned earlier, until recently they even posted the standings in ALPHABETICAL order! As if the "dumb football players" wouldn't notice and they'll be happy just playing the games like a bunch of 8 year olds playing flag football.

I can just see the league administrators cheering... "You're all winners!"

I don't know why NESCAC schools even keep score at all! Especially when the rules are changed every few years to prevent a team from winning too many games... Heaven forbid someone wins or loses more than 4 games, that would be simply ungentlemanly.

If football wasn't such a high profile sport, that generated money for the schools it would have been eliminated long ago.

I love the NESCAC. I think it is a great league with great athletics and even better academics. However, it's insistence that every athletic team be equal is absurd. Winning and losing can both be learning experiences. Isn't learning what participating in college athletics is supposed to be about?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Knightstalker on October 07, 2005, 04:48:39 pm
Just make it like t-ball and bitty soccer, (don't get me started on these two) lets not keep score, nobody loses, Everybody Wins!  Now lets all go get ice cream, yay!   ;)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 07, 2005, 05:38:31 pm
I like ice cream, sounds great to me. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 07, 2005, 06:14:57 pm
I 100% believe their is a NESCAC bias against football. They ban football from the NCAA playoffs, they refuse to allow the schools the opportunity to even play all the teams in the conference (a move that will come back to bite them this year if Trinity and Colby run the table). As mentioned earlier, until recently they even posted the standings in ALPHABETICAL order! As if the "dumb football players" wouldn't notice and they'll be happy just playing the games like a bunch of 8 year olds playing flag football.
 . . .

Remember the study that was done in 2001 by Schuman and Bowen for the Mellon Foundation of academic performance and admissions standards for the high-profile sports (football, ice hockey, and basketball? The data showed that recruited football players have lower SATs and lower GPAs in comparision to all other athletes and students at the NESCAC schools. The data wasn't broken down by school but it played a role in the new limits on the number of recruited athletes.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 07, 2005, 08:31:01 pm
Speedy, I read that book as part of an Independent Study with one of the top philosophy professors at Trinity.  This is a guy who played basketball at Princeton and still to this day swears that he learned more at Princeton while he was on the court than in the classroom.  This was back when the Ivy champion was the only one allowed to play post-season and they ended up in the Sweet 16.  He hates this book.  They completely skewed the data to make it look like the "high profile" athletes couldn't hold their own in the classroom.  What the two geeks who wrote the book failed to tell you was that their graphs were also manipulated to make the difference b/t athletes and non-athletes look greater than it actually was.  Average GPA of non-athletes 3.3....average GPA for athletes 3.1.  So let's not really stress out about the "lower" GPA's I don't think anyone should be complaining about getting above a "B" at one of these fine institutions.  We don't need you skewing the data as well, one time is enough.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 07, 2005, 08:53:19 pm
Speedy, I read that book as part of an Independent Study with one of the top philosophy professors at Trinity.  This is a guy who played basketball at Princeton and still to this day swears that he learned more at Princeton while he was on the court than in the classroom.  This was back when the Ivy champion was the only one allowed to play post-season and they ended up in the Sweet 16.  He hates this book.  They completely skewed the data to make it look like the "high profile" athletes couldn't hold their own in the classroom.  What the two geeks who wrote the book failed to tell you was that their graphs were also manipulated to make the difference b/t athletes and non-athletes look greater than it actually was.  Average GPA of non-athletes 3.3....average GPA for athletes 3.1.  So let's not really stress out about the "lower" GPA's I don't think anyone should be complaining about getting above a "B" at one of these fine institutions.  We don't need you skewing the data as well, one time is enough.

There's a lot about that study that was bogus but the SATs were definitely lower for "recruited" football players by an average of 142 points. Hockey players' SAT scores were 110 points lower and basketball players' SAT scores were 102 lower.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 08, 2005, 03:33:16 am
Are you really going to complain about the difference between a 1400 and a 1298........get real.  I played hoops at Trinity and would have gotten in on my own.  Don't for a second think that those economic geeks who have never played a single sport in their life know anything about sports.  They are an embarassment to the NESCAC.  The book should never have been written.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Longtooth on October 08, 2005, 10:37:29 am
GOOD lUCK TO WILLIAMS!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 08, 2005, 10:49:13 am
everyone really needs to calm down in here.  No one is cheating, no one is getting thrown out of the league, administrators arent having meetings to change the rules so trinity cant win.  Its just minor talk that everyone is getting upset about.  There are a few jelous posters in here of Trinitys success, and trinity alum and fans dont have to defend their program.

The only thing Im kind of upset about as an ouside nescac fan is that the league champ looks like it was decided in week 2 and that some of these games wont really have an impact on the final outcome...and that the top two teams in the league dont play each other, thats kind of dissapointing.

I do have a minor suggestion.  How about the top team in the league last year, (trinity) doesnt play the last place team in the league last year, (hamilton) that way the two top teams the next year will play 99% of the time.  Of course 9 games would be an easy solution as well

Title: Football
Post by: saul on October 08, 2005, 01:13:21 pm
while folks are getting all upset and firing off ad hominem attacks at me for being elistist or whatever, you're failing to grasp the message which is irrefutable: the trinity football program has the lowest academic standards of any nescac football program and this serves as the foundation for trinity's recent success in football.  That's a fact, born out by statistics self-reported by trinity. facts. period . end of discusion. move on.  i feel your insecurity, your frustations and yes, your pain over the existence of these facts but pillorying someone for merely laying them at your feet only makes you look pathetic. if i was affiliated with an institution with the lowest academic ranking in nesacc, i'd share those feelings in spades as well. the embarassment, the shame in knowing that each of your opponents knows they may be losing to you, but at least are adhering to a higher standard, a higher road, must engender a shame and guilt that takes a heavy toll, one not easliy assuaged by a slew of lop-sided victories. deep down you know that you are cutting corners and no amount of harranging and self-denial can right this. 
 
i feel sorry--believe me, no jealousy, jonny-- for trinity because it has been exploited by a snake-oil salesman ( priore) looking to pad his resume at the expense of a institution with a leadership vacuum. as soon as its convenient, priore will indeed fly the coop for the next best situation. sadly, it's a well-worn short cut to success for folks of Priore's ilk-- and he's the only one reaping the benefits. pick the school w/ the lowest academic standards in the league, set -up shop w/ a recruiting advantage enjoyed by no others in the league and coast to the top. penn, as been pointed out , in the past has been such a case in point. being able to take in kids of bulk, in bulk that no other league school will accept makes for a easy road to the top and this is what has happened at trinity. period. end of discussion.
 
now let me show you some love and tell you what I think trinity's path should be. i believe a new and improved academic standing for trinity benefits not only trinity, but all of nescac. trinity's low academic ranking effects all of its members merely by association. hey, if there's a stench coming from your neighbor's house, you have it checked out, right?. as a member of nescac, the primacy of academics and its advancement is, in effect,  your oath. now, if trinity could bring its academic standards more in line with the rest of nescac, it's academic reputation would improve, the quality of its faculty would rise and its meager endowment would rise as well. once its academic reputation was enhanced, then and only then, it could go about the task of buildings its football program in a controlled, responsible manner. i don't know what the deal w/ all the recent changes in presidents is about but clearly there can't be consensus about trinity's direction if that's happening. what's needed is a president with the solid backing of trustees to raise academic standards at trinity. if you, trinity football fans, truly love your school you'll realize that this course will be in both you, your kids, and trinity's best interests.

now let me tell you guys that instead of all this wasted energy over posts about having playoffs or a nine game schedule you should build a consensus about one/both of the suggestions and develop a resolution. post it on a separate website,  if pat won't allow it here, and then have it e-signed and sent to all the nescac presidents.  get that guy who drives to scrimmages in maine to set up a stand at games and have a hard copy signed by folks. you may have to find reps for each school who can circulate word to former teammates and then have someone on campus now get present football members to sign off. prior to sending it to the presidents get your school's newspaper to present it to the student body as a referendum. trust me, most papers love flash points like this. utimately, how you craft the hard copy and e-copy are up to you but get something together that can be presented to the presidents.  it may also define presidents/ colleges positions; you'll also see who stands where and  who stonewalls. in the end the mystery shrouding the presidents reasoning for the status quo may be revealed. it may well change nothing-- and actually, I hope it doesn't--- but in the end you can say you tried and then we can go beyond the same tired topics we hash over all the time.  time for some of you big trin talkers to take some initiative and actually do something, see if all your arguements have any cred at all, bro.  i'm betting that you just continue to sit on your butts because, well, that's just you.

Off to pratt to watch the jeffs beat midd.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: saul on October 08, 2005, 01:13:48 pm
while folks are getting all upset and firing off ad hominem attacks at me for being elistist or whatever, you're failing to grasp the message which is irrefutable: the trinity football program has the lowest academic standards of any nescac football program and this serves as the foundation for trinity's recent success in football.  That's a fact, born out by statistics self-reported by trinity. facts. period . end of discusion. move on.  i feel your insecurity, your frustations and yes, your pain over the existence of these facts but pillorying someone for merely laying them at your feet only makes you look pathetic. if i was affiliated with an institution with the lowest academic ranking in nesacc, i'd share those feelings in spades as well. the embarassment, the shame in knowing that each of your opponents knows they may be losing to you, but at least are adhering to a higher standard, a higher road, must engender a shame and guilt that takes a heavy toll, one not easliy assuaged by a slew of lop-sided victories. deep down you know that you are cutting corners and no amount of harranging and self-denial can right this. 
 
i feel sorry--believe me, no jealousy, jonny-- for trinity because it has been exploited by a snake-oil salesman ( priore) looking to pad his resume at the expense of a institution with a leadership vacuum. as soon as its convenient, priore will indeed fly the coop for the next best situation. sadly, it's a well-worn short cut to success for folks of Priore's ilk-- and he's the only one reaping the benefits. pick the school w/ the lowest academic standards in the league, set -up shop w/ a recruiting advantage enjoyed by no others in the league and coast to the top. penn, as been pointed out , in the past has been such a case in point. being able to take in kids of bulk, in bulk that no other league school will accept makes for a easy road to the top and this is what has happened at trinity. period. end of discussion.
 
now let me show you some love and tell you what I think trinity's path should be. i believe a new and improved academic standing for trinity benefits not only trinity, but all of nescac. trinity's low academic ranking effects all of its members merely by association. hey, if there's a stench coming from your neighbor's house, you have it checked out, right?. as a member of nescac, the primacy of academics and its advancement is, in effect,  your oath. now, if trinity could bring its academic standards more in line with the rest of nescac, it's academic reputation would improve, the quality of its faculty would rise and its meager endowment would rise as well. once its academic reputation was enhanced, then and only then, it could go about the task of buildings its football program in a controlled, responsible manner. i don't know what the deal w/ all the recent changes in presidents is about but clearly there can't be consensus about trinity's direction if that's happening. what's needed is a president with the solid backing of trustees to raise academic standards at trinity. if you, trinity football fans, truly love your school you'll realize that this course will be in both you, your kids, and trinity's best interests.

now let me tell you guys that instead of all this wasted energy over posts about having playoffs or a nine game schedule you should build a consensus about one/both of the suggestions and develop a resolution. post it on a separate website,  if pat won't allow it here, and then have it e-signed and sent to all the nescac presidents.  get that guy who drives to scrimmages in maine to set up a stand at games and have a hard copy signed by folks. you may have to find reps for each school who can circulate word to former teammates and then have someone on campus now get present football members to sign off. prior to sending it to the presidents get your school's newspaper to present it to the student body as a referendum. trust me, most papers love flash points like this. utimately, how you craft the hard copy and e-copy are up to you but get something together that can be presented to the presidents.  it may also define presidents/ colleges positions; you'll also see who stands where and  who stonewalls. in the end the mystery shrouding the presidents reasoning for the status quo may be revealed. it may well change nothing-- and actually, I hope it doesn't--- but in the end you can say you tried and then we can go beyond the same tired topics we hash over all the time.  time for some of you big trin talkers to take some initiative and actually do something, see if all your arguements have any cred at all, bro.  i'm betting that you just continue to sit on your butts because, well, that's just you.

Off to pratt to watch the jeffs beat midd.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 08, 2005, 02:23:06 pm
Hmmm, which is worse:
(1) Ad Hominem attacks; or
(2) Baseless allegations without even a scintilla of evidence.

Yes, we all know that Trinity is ranked lower than the other NESCAC schools; it has been for a long time.  That being said, its still a great school.  The rankings of the NESCAC schools has pretty much remained stagnant, through periods in which Williams steamrolled the league, and throughout the present period, in which Trinity is doing the same.

Typically, I think, coaching has been the main difference.  Williams and Amherst, and to a lesser extent, some of the other NESCAC schools, have always gotten kids who should be playing at a higher level (i.e., the Ivy League), wanted a great education, but wanted to play two sports.  Along the same lines, the top few schools in the NESCAC have also always gotten "Ivy rejects"; kids who were a hair below Ivy-League quality football players, but whose talents didn't justify the Ivy League Schools' pulling of the strings, but whose level of play justified such string-pulling at the higher NESCAC schools (low level of Division 3).

Williams and Amherst have always had that advantage.  Conversely, the schools at the lower end of the rankings spectrum in the NESCAC have had the competitive advantage of having the ability to get kids in who are smart and have good SATs, but who wouldn't be able to get into Williams or Amherst.

Its no secret that Williams and Amherst have almost always been the powers in the NESCAC.  The reason?  I'd have to say the reason is that THEY THEMSELVES have significant recruiting advantages as well.  Trinity and some of the other schools (Tufts and Colby, for example, sometimes Weseleyan) have traditionally been average, with the occasional great year when they have the right mix of players.

Bottom line: the NESCAC and its recruiting standards are the same as they have always been.  The only difference is that, at the present time, Trinity is doing an amazing job of recruiting and coaching.  There is nothing to be ashamed of.  You have no basis for your allegations.

Yes, its nice to live in a fantasy world where your team is always at the top.  Unfortunately - and I think this will be a nice life lesson for you - things don't always work out the way you want them to.  Rather than blame others without a factual basis, move on and try and bring your school back to its former glory.

Again, there is NOTHING behind your posts EXCEPT the following:

"Williams and Amherst are ALLOWED to be dominant.  If ANY of the schools which (GASP) are ranked lower than Williams or Amherst has a period of greatness that rivals that of the afore-mentioned schools, we need to think of a reason to slander that success, even if our rationale is baseless and shameful".
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 08, 2005, 03:46:17 pm
saul, you wont see any of what you want because there simply is not enough interest.  About .3 percent of highschool students looking at going to nescac schools know that Trinitys football team has a winning streak.  Its not that big of a deal and you wont see any petitions at scrimmages in Maine or any other such nonsense.  Now, you might see some high profile transfers being topics of future conversations but thats about it.

Now to another topic.  Amherst has long been known to lower average sats hundreds of points for springfield area athletes that end up being great football players.  In fact, since Amherst has some of the most stringent admissions policies in the world, they have to really sacrifice their academic integrity to get football players in the school.  Amherst still gets 15 football players WAY below the amherst admission standard as the SAT is a huge factor in amherst admissions.  The SAT does not have to be submitted at several nescac schools.  It is amherst that should be ashmaed of themselves if you want to look at it that way.

Coaches going to schools with low academic standards to the rest of the conference does not work.  You might as well call farhley and ostendarp puppets of lowered policies of the 1980s/1990 then.  That would be irresponsible and stupid
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 08, 2005, 03:46:47 pm
Another happy day for Bowdoin as the Polar Bears knock off Tufts 10-8.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bobbyj on October 08, 2005, 07:47:25 pm
 
      Is there some league rule that says all football games must be played on Saturday afternoons? How many fields in the league have lights? Any? I remember basketball games being some of the best attended games of all sports because athletes from other teams didn't have conflicts and other athletes always try to support each other. My niece is at Bowdoin and has not seen more than half a football game because of her teams games are played at the same just about the same time. These kids support each other. Better scheduling would help school spirit.

      Saul, your idea is a great one. Good to see someone actually thinking. The two things people here complain about for years now is playoffs and more games. Round and round it goes but nobody ever makes any kind of effort. The same people complain and complain but do not ever think of doing anything about it. Maybe its just too much fun to complain or maybe they know that they can't get the support. I say "putup or shut up" to those who complain about playoffs and more games. NESCAC has done fine all these years without both!! No need to dilute great rivalries I feel.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 08, 2005, 09:22:33 pm

      Is there some league rule that says all football games must be played on Saturday afternoons? How many fields in the league have lights? Any? I remember basketball games being some of the best attended games of all sports because athletes from other teams didn't have conflicts and other athletes always try to support each other. My niece is at Bowdoin and has not seen more than half a football game because of her teams games are played at the same just about the same time. These kids support each other. Better scheduling would help school spirit. . . .

There is apparently a bias in the NESCAC against holding sports events on Saturday nights. I think it has to do with wanting to minimize the number of overnight trips and taking students away from campus for too much time. I suspect the students would prefer the Saturday night games, especially in the context of basketball and hockey where they end up jamming 2 games into a 22 hour time period (Friday at 7PM and Saturday at 3PM) in order to avoid the second over night (or a late trip home on Saturday). You're right that it does take away from team spirit to jam all games for all sports for both men an women into a 3 hour period on Saturday, thereby preventing athletes from supporting each other.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 10, 2005, 09:35:41 am
5-0 this week after two 3-2's.  Turning the season around.  Trin and Dirty, how'd y'all do?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 10, 2005, 10:11:37 am
Former: I went 5-0 as well, which puts me at 12-3 and tied with dirty. I was close to picking Bates over Williams and was kicking myself when I saw the Ephs down 7-2 in the 4th quarter. Luckily for Whalen they pulled it out (can you imagine what the alumni would be saying if Williams started 0-3!)

After seeing Colby stuggle to put away Wesleyan (the worst team in the league this year by far.) I now think a more reasonalbe spread in a Trinity vs Colby match-up would be at least 21 points. The Bantams made Hamilton look like a mediocre high school team allowing only 2 first downs (BOTH by penalty), while scoring on 2 int returns and a 94 yard kickoff return. Not to mention sophomore Trinity QB/WR/RB Chandler Barnard 3 carries 3 Touchdowns!

Congrats to Bowdoin 3-0 for the 1st time since 1964! Tufts starts their annual collapse and will be lucky to win another game this year.

Middlebury is the best 0-3 team in recent NESCAC memory.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 10, 2005, 07:10:27 pm
solid picks again trin8-0....we are both 12-3, but I think I have some picks that will put me ahead after this week.  I will post tommorow...I need time to think about these.  I also agree, Colby would not come close to touching Trinity if they played this year...the bants really are the best team I have seen in the NESCAC in a long time.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on October 10, 2005, 07:40:11 pm
even if trinity would put colby away with ease, there is really no doubt that colby is a strong choice to go 8-0, along with trinity. the case for a 9th game will never be stronger if this ends up happening...
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 10, 2005, 07:54:55 pm
We will never know. There will be no 9th game this year or in the foreseeable future, irrespective of Colby's and Trinity's outcomes this year.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 11, 2005, 12:24:17 am
Sadly enough, Frank, you couldn't be more correct.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 11, 2005, 05:09:43 am
former: My mother, God rest her soul, henceforth will always respect your judgment.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: 2sportdevil on October 11, 2005, 08:11:23 am
Frank, your mother, God rest her soul, did know a little about footbal at all levels.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 11, 2005, 09:14:37 am
Frank, thank you for the compliment....It seems that the AD's and the Presidents are just on different levels of thinking.  As one AD put it "the 9th game couldn't be any more of a no brainer for these guys."  But the Presidents look at it more like it keeps their elite status and they won't sacrifice their identity to play a lesser school.  I'm sure Saul would argue that Trinity is a lesser school than the rest of the NESCAC in his refutation of my point.  But you get what I'm saying.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 11, 2005, 11:53:30 am
2sport: As you know, my mother would surprise the posters on this board with her football knowledge.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 11, 2005, 02:03:39 pm
Trin8-0 NESCAC picks 10/15 :

Whatcha got dirty/former?

Bowdoin 17
Hamilton  7

Hamilton High makes it a game, but Polar Bears go to improbable 4-0.

Colby  10
Amherst  3

Defensive battle goes to the home team.

Bates  17
Wesleyan  14

Both teams are coming off of frustrating losses, but it's the Bobcats who get 1st win of the season.

Middlebury  24
Williams  14

Williams has been plagued by inconsitency while the Panthers have played tough in every game. Middlebury gets it done at home.

Trinity  30
Tufts  3

A stingy Jumbo defense holds Trinity to 16 points below their season scoring average, but it makes little difference in the final outcome.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 11, 2005, 04:37:37 pm
To get into a tie w/ the 2 of you, one of my picks has to be different....

Trinity 42 Tufts 6......Family weekend for the Jumbos (nice scheduling), but even that won't help em.
Bowdoin 21 Hamilton 10.....Never thought that Bowdoin would be 4-0
Middlebury 17 Williams 14.....Home team wins
Bates 24 Wes Tech 14.....The Cards just don't do it for me
Amherst 21 Colby 20.....Not sure about this one, but don't want our Bants to have to share the title.

Amherst has to show up sometime this year, right???
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 12, 2005, 08:42:37 am
Alright trin8-0 and former, I am going to blow you away.

Picks for this week:

Bowdoin 21----Hamilton 10

Colby 17----Amherst 21  This has to be their only loss of the year, Herst loves playing the spoiler

Bates 10---Weslyan 17   They cant lose to Bates

Middlebury 28----Williams 10 

Trinity 42----Tufts 10   
 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 12, 2005, 09:06:46 am
I  must say I am a little nervous about my Bates-Wesleyan pick (that one could go either way, and it's in Middletown).

However, I love that you and former both picked the Jeffs this weekend. I just don't think Amherst has what it takes to beat Colby in Waterville. Though I would love to see it happen because you're right... this is probably the only game standing in the way of the Mules undefeated season.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 12, 2005, 09:51:12 am
You NESCACers haven't yet tumbled to the statistic that some Middlebury guy currently leads DIII (228 teams) in all tackles per game. If you care,  one of you morons can dig out his name and the number.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 12, 2005, 09:57:07 am
You NESCACers haven't yet tumbled to the statistic that some Middlebury guy currently leads DIII (228 teams) in total tackles per game. If you care,  one of you morons can dig out his name and the number.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 12, 2005, 10:21:12 am
Frank: Didn't your mother tell you it's not nice to call people names? Besides Pat Coleman would probably say that he only leads NESCAC nation, but regarless:

Panther senior linbacker Coleman Hutzler has 13 solo tackles and 32 assisted tackles in three games for a total of 45 and an average of 15 per game. He is .5 a head of Adam Neiffer of Beloit. And don't forget junior linebacker John Regan of Bowdoin who leads DIII in forced fumbles (1.0 p/g)

Also Amherst leads the (NESCAC) nation in total defense (141.3 y/g). Followed by Tufts 2nd nationally (156.3 y/g) and Trinity 3rd (162.7 y/g)

Trinity leads the nation is pass efficiency defense (61.4). Tufts is 3rd (66.4) Amherst 4th (71.4)

Trinity also is 1st in scoring defense (2 p/g), Amherst 3rd (6.3 p/g)

Colby 1st nationally in turnover margin (3.7 p/g), Bowdoin 2nd (3.3 p/g), Trinity 3rd (3.0 p/g)

Are NESCAC defenses that good, or are the offenses that bad? It could be either... but remember Trinity is 4th in the nation is scoring OFFENSE (46.3 ppg) and 1st in kick off returns (42.67 p/r)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 12, 2005, 10:39:20 am
Frank, to be honest.....stats for guys at Middlebury just don't do it for me.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 12, 2005, 10:48:39 am
Tin8:  Yes, she did, but it feels so good.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 12, 2005, 10:56:16 am
32 assisted tackles? That's a lot of tackles they're handing out.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Knightstalker on October 12, 2005, 11:06:23 am
32 assisted tackles? That's a lot of tackles they're handing out.

That or nobody else playing on defense knows how to wrap up a ball carrier and finish a tackle.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 12, 2005, 01:53:48 pm
The guys at Trinity sure know how to tackle.  That's one thing I do know.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on October 12, 2005, 02:26:40 pm
seems the only thing trinity can't do is fly, or maybe turn lead into gold...
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 12, 2005, 02:26:46 pm
Judging how good a player is by how many tackles they have can be dangerous. For example Trinity's Michael Blair has been arguably the best defensive player in the league for the past 2 years (if not three). However, he is currently ranked tied for 45th in the NESCAC for total tackles (the highest rank of any Trinity player).

Though he does lead the league in sacks (4.5) and is 4th in tackles for loss (4.5) he is unable to amass a large number of total tackles because he is usually only on the field for 2 quarters and even then most of Trinity's opponent's possessions are 3 and out.

This isn't meant to take anything away from those players who top the NESAC list in number of tackles. However, I'm sure you would see a few more Bantams on the top of the list if they played a full game or at least had an opportunity to be on the field for more than 3 plays at a time.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 12, 2005, 02:31:18 pm
cruiser: No one is saying that Trinity is fielding a team of Supermen... However, you can't really argue against the fact that they are head and shoulders above anyone they get to play.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 12, 2005, 02:46:32 pm
I've seen G. Leo fly
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 12, 2005, 02:47:52 pm
And it's save to say that Priore has turned the program from lead into gold over the past few years.  But yes, I do know that I am extremely biased in my opinion....and maybe blowing a little too much smoke up their behinds.  But why not?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 12, 2005, 06:36:41 pm
Trinity would beat the New England Patriots....lets try and set that game up.  Belichek did play lacrosse at Weslyan...but then again NESCAC lacrosse is the toughest league in the Nation...So it makes sense. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 12, 2005, 06:55:19 pm
well middlebury runs a 4-3, and the middle lb usually gets a lot of tackles in that d as well but that is a lot of uts for a guy
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on October 12, 2005, 07:45:39 pm
you could also make the argument for peter sherman, class of colby 05 for being the best defensive player in the NESCAC, this year nonwithstanding since he has graduated.however, last year and the year before he was absolutely dominant in all aspects of the defensive end position, hence the aztec bowl invitation
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 13, 2005, 10:03:23 am
Goldstein from Trinity made it to the Aztec Bowl as well....and was the conference player of the year.  Sherman, a very good player, was not even the best of his class.  And I would still take Blair over and D-Lineman in the conference this year or last year.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 13, 2005, 10:22:06 am
I would agree formerbant, blair is one of the top players in the country.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 13, 2005, 11:13:57 am
Goldstein was a very good player, but was over-rated. He benefitted from being a good athlete in a defense that is designed for safeties to make tackles and big plays. Blair dominates in the NESCAC, and forces offenses to scheme around him. He should have won P.O.Y. last year and it would be a crime if he doesn't this year.

On another note, there could be an interesting choice for this years NESCAC football coach of the year.  If Ed Mestieri and Colby can run the table he would certainly be a good candidate. Also, Dave Caputi of Bowdoin would be a great pick if the Polar Bears finish 7-1 or 6-2. What an impressive turn around that would be after last years 2-6 record. Or is it a no-brainer that Chuck Priore wins it again, provided they finish undefeated and Trinity runs the win streak to 30?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 13, 2005, 11:45:38 am
The way the NESCAC works, they'll give it to any coach not named Chuck Priore as soon as possible.  They've always been strange with awards like that.  A few years back in hoops, Conn College's coach got the award when they finished 3rd in the league and on their way down from the top of the country where they had been the previous few years.  Trinity's first place finish and NCAA bid weren't enough to sway the voters.  So expect the award to land somewhere other than Hartford this year.  That is unless the everyone else tanks.  But I'm sure Saul would agree that Priore should be arrested for recruiting players not of NESCAC standards and using these academic nightmares on the same field as the godly whiz kids at the other institutions and should have his previous awards revoked.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Longtooth on October 13, 2005, 04:24:10 pm
What is the deal with that?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Monster on October 13, 2005, 08:20:41 pm
I know nobody cares but I'm throwing out my own picks. 

Trinity 42 Tufts 6     Tufts had a kid down a kickoff on his own 3 enough said

Colby 17 Amherst 14   Colby's only game will be against Bowdoin

Bates 17 Wesleyan 10 where's Beli when you need him?

Middlebury 24 Williams 17  hello williams, welcome to mediocrity

Bowdoin 35 Hamilton 6  Bears wideout Nolin is the real deal, and their defense just makes plays
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 13, 2005, 08:31:08 pm
Monster: Welcome, good to have some more people picking games.


Colby 17 Amherst 14 Colby's only game will be against Bowdoin


From the looks of this score it looks like they'll have a game this week too.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on October 13, 2005, 09:41:40 pm
trinity 35 tufts 10

colby 24 amherst 7

wesleyan 19 bates 17

williams 14 middlebury 10

bowdoin 12 hamilton 6
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 13, 2005, 10:18:00 pm
I like seeing a little more action.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Monster on October 14, 2005, 01:08:19 am
the score doesnt reflect how the game will be dominated, colby is too big up front, but they cant finish drives, bowdoin 12 hamilton 6? i know it might be wet, but hamilton corners cant match up at all playing 1 on 1 on an island, besides bowdoin's defense might score 12 themselves, you think tufts can really get 10 vs trinity? tufts only got 8 vs bowdoin and a bunch of trinity's players used to be on scholarship somewhere, i think they are more than just 2 points better on d, especially with the dominant time of possession
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on October 14, 2005, 01:57:57 am
while bowdoin may be 3-0 and that is definitely respectable, especially considering how much they have been outgained yardage-wise, all three of their wins have come at margins of 1, 3 and 2. close games take tolls on teams, and while i dont think bowdoin will drop one to hamilton, i think it will be closer than some people think.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 14, 2005, 02:00:05 am
yea, priore should be coach of the year unless bowdoin loses only 1 game or less
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 14, 2005, 09:48:17 am
Cruiser: Solid picks. I'm torn with almost every game this week. All but one of the games is a toss up. I wonder how, if at all, the rain will effect the outcomes. Any thoughts?

Despite my bias towards Trinity, I do believe Caputi and Mestieri have a better shot to win Coach of the year. Trinity has so much talent on the field Priore doesn't necessarily have to do a great job of coaching in order for the Bantams to go 8-0. The same case could be made for Colby, but to a much lesser extent.

I agree with Utah, if Bowdoin finish 7-1 Caputi should win the award. However, the Polar Bears may have to at least play Trinity close. A tough task not only because that game is in Hartford, but also because the last 2 years Trinity has outscored Bowdoin 92-0.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Monster on October 14, 2005, 10:10:59 am
i hate to be a bowdoin supporter here considering i went to colby, but i think bowdoin will go 6-2 and caputi will get it considering they've won 3 games in the last 3 years.  its hard to give it to priore the award because there are so many players he has that wouldnt get in at other schools in the nescac.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 14, 2005, 10:11:32 am
Bates vs. Wesleyan has been moved to Trinity @ 1pm due to unplayable fields.  This will be the first time in a while that someone other than the Bants won on their field.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 14, 2005, 11:06:56 am
Monster: Thats a gross generalization. The majority of Trinity players would be accepted at most (though not all) other NESCAC schools, because the fact is the admissions standards at ALL NESCAC schools are very high, and not very different. Why does everyone think that the Trinity football players HAD to go to Trinity because it's the only place that would accept them? Couldn't it be that they WANTED to go to Trinity?

It does have much more to offer besides being slightly less competitive academically. Its location in a city and Greek presence gives it one of, if not the best, social atmosphere of any NESCAC school. It may not be South Beach but CT has a much better climate than ME, or VT.  Trinity also has one of the better study abroad programs. Everyone knows Trinity has the best looking girls, and oh yeah... the football team hasn't lost a game in 3 years! Those are all very attractive attributes to recruits.

What's next, should we start putting an asterisk next to each Trinity win? What about USC, their players wouldn't get into Stanford... so they're really just cheating.

Former: Smart move by Wes and Bates, that field is great in the rain. If they can keep the ball dry the conditions won't effect the game at all.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on October 14, 2005, 11:44:17 am
There is no doubt that Caputi should win the coach of the year award if he goes 6-2.  If anything tey should give the award to the defensive coordinator there.  Bowdoin has a lways had a pretty good offense...maybe one that couldnt punch it in againt some of the better defenses but a pretty decent unit that would have won alot more games if their defnese had the equivalant talent.  Obviosly one has to balance those aspects of the game and it appears that Caputi has done that.

When i played d-line for trinity these past few years I remember how well the bowdoin o-line was coached.  they executed as well as any team inj thne league offensively but, like most teams, would just get worn down and outmuscled by trin (as most did).  lets not forget that this is a bowdoin team that was knocking pretty hard on the door last year....they came a play away from beating amherst. 

And to weigh in on this whole "Trinity football players couldnt get into other NESCAC schools"

First of all I could name half of our starters from my class who looked at other NESCAC schools and received offers from or were recruited by them (any of them, you name it).  And some of the others, including myself, applyed early decision 1 because I went on a recruiting trip, met chuck, loved it, loved the staff, the atmosphere, and said this is the place for me.  and i came from a long long way away.  also, this was when we were 4-4, so there was little of the glitz and glamour that the program now enjoys.  but i remember leaving the meeting with chuck and my dad and i were like, "this guy is good."  it was pretty clear to me that trinity had a good program, historically speaking, it was in  a rut, and this guy was obviously going to pull it out.  hindsight is 20-20, but this is seriosuly exactly what I thought. 

And for all those posters that go on and on about the academic inferiority of Trinity college, I'll stack up trinity professors against any other school in the nescac.  I revceived a top notch education from exceptionally bright and talented professors who were devoted to there students.  Like someone mentioed before, the rankings of the U.S. news and world report on colleges is based on alot a numerical factors like percentage of alumni giving, endowment, admissions, etc.  Trinity sufferes trememdously in the finacial category, so that seriosuly affects its ranking, but it still maintains a top notch professorial corp that can compete with any other NESCAC school. 

im done
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Monster on October 14, 2005, 12:48:02 pm
You all make very vaild points and I don't mean to put down your education.  However, I think we should all take a taste of reality.  I mean I got a 1420 and when I told that to my interviewer at Trinity she was like you're definitely getting in.  I didn't get into Williams Amherst Bowdoin or Wesleyan, and I did get into Bates Colby and Trinity.  I went to St. Sebs in the ISL and everyone in our league knows that Trinity is the easiest school to get into.  I mean no other school in our league would take people that flunked out of Div 1 schools.  I had a friend, I won't name names, who was a back up o-line man at Trinity who had a C average in high school and didn't break 1100 on his SAT's.  I understand you still get a good education there, but putting up your professors against the Amherst Williams Bowdoins and Tufts of the league is just ignorant.  Its not your professors that are in question, its the students and admissions.  I bet I would have had a much better time at Trinity.  Whenever I partied there I had a blast, but when I was a applying for law school I realized why I made the choice I did.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 14, 2005, 01:38:01 pm
Plenty of kids from Trinity go to law school.  Congrats on the 1420 by the way, thats good stuff.  But believe it or not, there are other things schools look at besides SAT's.  A lot of people say Trinity is a country club and the stress on academics....well there isn't any.  But that's starting to change because the Trustees flipped out when they saw the school rated as the #5 party school some years back.  Trinity is trying to find its identity...as seen by the constant turnover in Presidents (the classes of '04 and '05 had a different one each year), and the academic standard is being raised with each new incoming class....but let's be honest, we're arguing about how Trinity is ranked only #24 or 25 or whatever it is....GET OVER IT.  All of these schools are amazing, everyone gets a job when they get out of it (if they choose to).  Let's get back to enjoying a great football season with some expected things (Trinity and Colby) and a great surprise to many (Bowdoin).  All this rain the past week should make for some sloppy games, wonder what horses are gonna show up.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: TheLegend on October 14, 2005, 02:02:31 pm
I have been taking a few spare moments over the course of the last few weeks to catch up on everybody's opinion on NESCAC football. On the whole, i feel there are alot of valid arguments and viewpoints made as well as some absolutly rediculous comments made.

To comment on the strength of schools in the NESCAC (more appropriatly: the Trinity bashing): NESCAC schools have the "little Ivy" tag for a reason. Now, whether you're Williams or you're Conn College, you're getting a great education. Whats the point of going to a good school? To set yourself apart from the rest of the educated people right? Now a days, over 85% of the woring world is educated at the post high school level. To quickly contrast, the reason NESCACs and Ivy's are so elite is because of their reputation, but also because of the relatively small graduating class sizes. For every 1 graduate from trinity there are 14 graduate from UCONN. Thats why our schools are special. Now, when a person is applying to a job after they graduate from school and the man is comparing a student from Trinity and a student from Amherst, do you think all the emplyer is concerned with is the institution? I hope not. The fact is, once you get into a school like any of the ones in the NESCAC you've got yourself in a good position for success in the future. Rest assured there are more successful people who have graduated from Conn College than from Williams or Amherst, and visa versa; what it comes down to is drive and desire, not alma mater. Now that being said, lets look to athletics ...

I think this stuff on trinity cheating is funny. The fact is that Trinity has done a great job closing the discrepencies between administration and athletics. At trinty, one helps the other, at other schools, the two dont give a load about the other. Its like any other BUSINESS organization; when everyone is on the same page, things happen smoother and more successfully. When you have one department fighting against the other, companies file for bankruptcy.

One last thing ... Trinity has never cheated in recruiting like one other university that I cant believe has been failed to be mentioned. Tufts univeristy in the season of 2001 had a tailback, last name Kelly, who wasnt even an enrolled student playing and winning games for the Jumbos. The league became wise to this and decided to simply slap tufts on the wrist.

Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 14, 2005, 02:14:35 pm
I chose Trinity over Williams because (GASP) I thought I'd like it better and both were great schools.  I was right and I have no regrets.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 14, 2005, 04:06:58 pm
Legend, can you give a little more detail about the Tufts scandal?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 14, 2005, 04:10:52 pm
yea legend you are talking about serious ncaa violations here where if true, could actually forfeit games from past seasons so I hope you arent just makin crap up here
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 14, 2005, 04:36:23 pm
I remember what Legend is talking about. His name was Keven Kelly, he made 1st team all NESCAC in 2001 as a Junior. However, from what I remember he was around 25 years old was either not enrolled in any classes or was not taking the minimum required number of credits to be eligible for participation in athletics.

Tufts finished 6-2 that season, losing to only Williams and Amherst by 4 points each. The scandal was very quietly handled and brushed under the rug. However, Kelly did not return to the field for his "senior" year in 2002 when the Jubmos finished tied for 7th in the league at 3-5.

I will admit this is all based on memory, and I don't know any of the facts. Anybody else have any info about this?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: First6Ws on October 14, 2005, 04:47:18 pm
I remember such a rumor as well.  Don't know if it was true, but I can attest that the kid could definitely run the ball and didn't show up the next year.  I also still can't get over Trinity scoring more points than yards they allowed last week, 58-57.  Poor Hamilton High
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on October 14, 2005, 05:56:05 pm
Regarding Kelly at Tufts.....He was enrolled.....he flunked out....that's why he didn't return for his senior year.  There were no "violations".  I'm done.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Monster on October 14, 2005, 06:01:29 pm
I've heard about some steroid use in the NESCAC.  Do you think there is any truth to the rumors?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Monster on October 14, 2005, 06:07:07 pm
hey when we say how bad a football team is we aren't "bashing" we're commenting, i think most of us here just call it as we see it.  some of us just see things differently.  i personally think there is a giant gap from the top to bottom academically in the nescac, some people feel there is barely one at all. i just personally think that Div 1 transfers who flunked out, wouldnt be admitted in most of the premier academic schools in the league.  i think trinity has a great football team, and i would put them up against any Div III team in the country and I would be proud of them representing the NESCAC, but i still think that some of the kids (not just football players) at that school benefited from signifcantly lower academic standards by the admissons.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 14, 2005, 06:30:37 pm
The whole Kevin Kelly thing is somewhat true...I believe that his GPA during the season was below the standard for NCAA.  His grades were not reported (I believe) until after the season ended...did'nt he leave Tufts during that years spring semester?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on October 14, 2005, 06:36:55 pm
how did he get into Tufts in the first place? 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: TheLegend on October 14, 2005, 06:54:40 pm
the kelly story is true. he was a tufts student who withdrew but continued to play football. and I believe he didnt even return for his junior spring semester.  and its a hundred percent true. the league met and suggested taking all their wins away but instead opted to have it be water under the bridge. GO JUMBO's.

steroids are used in the NESCAC, ironically though, moreso by the kids trying to get on the field, not the ones actually on the field.

and as far as I know, the kids at trinity who transfered from D-I schools didnt flunk out, they transfered for an opportunity to play football, not ride the pine.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: First6Ws on October 14, 2005, 07:12:37 pm
None of the D-1 transfers I know failed out of school.  In fact, those whose grades I'm aware of excelled academically prior to their transfer.  Also, how many d-1 transfers are we talking about?  I can count the ones i know on one hand and that spans several classes
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 14, 2005, 07:31:29 pm
We've already been over the whole transfer issue several times. I believe the transfer that Monster was refering to was someone specific who he knew and presumable went to Trinity before Priore was there.

Anyone else have predictions about the games... Isn't that what we should be discussing the day before some very good match-ups?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: river on October 14, 2005, 09:33:30 pm
Here's an except from a Trinity release about a nationwide tv program re the Bants.  Should be interesting to see if there is dispassionate description or negative editorializing about why Trinity is so dominant in the NESCAC in football.   

"Hartford, Conn., Oct. 13 – The Trinity College football team and its current winning streak of 25 games will be the subject of a one-hour documentary, which will be broadcast nationally on College Sports Television (CSTV). The program will focus on the Trinity football game on Oct. 1 against Williams College, which the Bantams won, 34-6, to break the New England Division III win streak record of 23 victories. The show will also showcase the spirited football rivalry between the two storied small college football powers and give a behind-the-scenes look at the Trinity and Williams football programs. The documentary is scheduled to premiere on Thu., Oct. 20 at 8 p.m. and will run again at 11 p.m. that night and several times over the next week until Oct. 29."

It might be more appropriate to have put "NESCAC" or "New England" between "college"  and "football" in the phrase "small college football powers."  Just a bit of armchair editorializing.   :)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Billsville on October 14, 2005, 11:52:42 pm
The Kelley story is true. Tutfs was forced to offer forfiets to every team they beat after the season but no one accepted so that there wouldn't be a scandel and it could be swept under the rug. He was technically enrolled in classes but never attended one. That year Tufts was a very good team regardless of Kelly got to give them some credit.

Yes all of the nescacs are good schools but they are not on the same level. Amherst and Williams are head and shoulders above with Bowdoin getting better and better recently. The quality of the education is not what I am talking about because I would guess they are all similar but its really just about perception in the job world where there is a clear divide. I think that the equivilent would be Amherst and Williams being a Princeton while Trinity would be about a Lehigh or Bucknell. All good schools but not the same. What I've never understood is how Williams continually outrecruits Amherst. They are almost identical but Amherst is in a much better location being in the 5 college area and an hour closer to Boston?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 15, 2005, 03:14:15 pm
Bowdoin goes to 4-0 with a solid 21-7 victory over Hamilton.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 15, 2005, 04:10:26 pm
No undefeated season for Colby as the Mules fall to Amherst 28-9!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on October 15, 2005, 04:57:55 pm
so trinity IS mortal, only beating tufts 7-0....
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 15, 2005, 05:20:02 pm
not for nothing, but it has been raining hard in boston for two days straight and most of the last week..and I mean it has literally rained hard for 48 hours straight with no let up untill about an hour ago.....I wonder how tufts field was.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Monster on October 15, 2005, 07:54:35 pm
I guess today seperated the men from the boys.  I guess Colby isn't the team we thought they were.  Gotta give props to Amherst though.


p.s. I don't care how bad the field was. Trinity is OVERRATED! They put up 58 in the rain last week, can't use that as an excuse.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: nescacdad on October 15, 2005, 08:30:21 pm
Coach Mills is going to get his hands on the tape of that Trinity/Tufts game and see what Tufts did on D.

Colby/Amherst was 9-0 Colby at half time(safety/touchdown).  Amherst O came around and their D is just really good. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 15, 2005, 08:39:35 pm
Trinity is not overrated, last week they played on field-turf. On that field you'd never know it was raining. What happened today was they played a very good defense that played a great game at their homecoming in a sloppy field.  No need for excuses, a win is a win (26 in a row mind you) and though it may have been sloppy they still got the job done allowing the Tufts offense only 2.5 yards per play, keeping them out of the red zone the entire game.

The real story this week is Amherst ruining Colby's chance at an undefeated season. The story for next week... Trinity ruining Bowdoin's chance at an undefeated season. You're right cruiser, Trinity is mortal, but they're still the best team the NESCAC has to offer.

(Side note, Bates saved me beating Wesleyan in OT... I'm 3-2 this week 15-5 overall)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 15, 2005, 08:44:08 pm
Yea Id like to see that game next week.  I saw Northeastern/William and Mary today....what a game. Cant imagine what a grass field was like today though
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on October 15, 2005, 09:02:45 pm
yes...the field was a mess but both teams played outstanding defense.  Trin scored on one pass play mistake...otherwise Tufts shut them down pretty well (first time this year they gave up over 200 yards...218 to be exact).  Trin's D was just too fast for the Jumbo offense to get anything done.  Tufts D has given up only one TD per game this year so they should be given their just due.  Hard fought game by two quality teams.  Trin vs Amherst should be real interesting & if Tufts can score some points (a big question) they can do some damage before this season's over.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bobbyj on October 15, 2005, 11:53:13 pm
    Saw Trinity play vs. Tufts. Tufts was able to contain Trinity offense pretty well-even with their starters in. That kid Blair and their linebackers are very impressive. Trinity kids looked bored before and during the game though. NESCAC play seems way off of what it was in the 90's. Makes you wonder how Trinity could be prepared for national playoffs after playing such a lame NESCAC slate?



      Trinity is definitely the NESCAC kingpin over the last few years but, it's true, they have a real advantage being able to take many kids- like an entire program!- that no other league schools can accept. Everybody knows it and it 's kind of a joke. A Trinity fan today told me that their coach was like a kid in a candy store with all the other neighborhood kids locked out!  I had to laugh. Good for him though and congrats to Trinity on their big win streak.


Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Monster on October 15, 2005, 11:58:29 pm
obviously they are the best team nescac has to offer, they have all the morons no one else could get in, nevermind all the roids they do, and im sure you guys will have plenty of excuses, but we all know the real deal, so you are only fooling yourself.  in bowdoin wins against them, they should cry. i cant believe my mules lost, at least they will get second.  after bowdoin loses to trinity my boys will smoke them... i know amherst beat them, but i mean they still have pride.  besides the fact they looked like high school kids today, im sure they will show up... where is the mule bride! josh berman show up, stop getting smoked!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: empire8fan102 on October 16, 2005, 08:58:21 am
I am not a nESCAC fan and certainly not a Trinity fan but knew a bunch of those guys last year and the year before. To say a huge part of the team is on roids is a bold statement and completely untrue. everyime there is a winning program that dominates the competition they are automatically cheating and doing roids. Teams should try and focus up on beating them instead of complaining about them. Looks like Tufts did that.

Also people say trinity would be a national powerhouse if they played outside the nescac. Tufts almost beat trinity so its scarey to see what a Typical Springfield or rowan, Ithaca, Cortland team would do to them. Great program and they are good just not a national Powerhouse.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on October 16, 2005, 10:56:24 am
Monster, sounds like your venting the fact that Colby isnt all that it was cracked up to be on the "roid ragin and moronic trinity football team." 

i just want you to know it gives me great pleasyre that your beloved colby mules got their asses handed to them by amherst. 

the streak continues and all the sour colby fans can now sit and pout as they chase 2nd place. 


also, you guys remember what happended last time colby and trinity met.....I do!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 16, 2005, 11:18:38 am
obviously they are the best team nescac has to offer, they have all the morons no one else could get in, nevermind all the roids they do

Monster: It sounds like you're the one with the excuses. I suppose you're just upset about getting smoked by the Jeffs.

I've never seen a team get bashed by so many people so badly after winning their 26th consecutive game. Trinity may not have played their best game, but they were playing a great defense on a sloppy field that is not exactly condusive to a high scoring game. lt's ok though, I understand all you Trin-haters out there have been waiting for a chance to dump on the Bantams and even though they still won, this is probably the best chance you'll have all year, so I'll let you enjoy it.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on October 16, 2005, 04:35:55 pm
Trin8-0,

I hope you didn't consider any of my comments Trin bashing.  They ARE a great team.  I've seen them now 4 years running vs the Jumbos & the most obvious difference is their overall team speed.  Sloppy field yesterday which compromised some of that speed....definitely.  But both teams were affected...Tufts is more a running offense & their backs couldn't get any momentum towards the line.  Trin's plays of snapping the ball directly to Leo gave him the advantage of getting up a full head of steam but the Jumbos' run defense largely contained him and the other RBs.  Give alot of credit to Walsh, the D Coordinator for Tufts....he always has a very competitive, if not superb defense...and this year it's very, very good.

Good luck the rest of the way....let's hope bashing stops on this board & we stick to football.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 16, 2005, 05:56:21 pm
Mariner, no problem with you. From what I've read, you call 'em like you see 'em. I agree, lets focus on the football. Any thoughts on the BIG game this week, which will almost certainly determine who wins the NESCAC?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on October 16, 2005, 07:31:07 pm
No problem....Based on what I saw re: the Jumbos vs the Bowdoin/Trin games, the Bants will have no trouble handling Bowdoin this week.  Yesterday was the first game Bow had any kind of clear cut advantage in stats..and this was versus Hamilton.  Obviously, I'm a bit prejudiced, but Tufts should not have lost to the Polar Bears last week.  Tufts handled them easily in their pre-season scrimmage & likewise last week..... they should have won but penalties/turnovers stopped the Jumbos.  Bowdoin has been very opportunistic on D but I don't see that happening next Sat.  Their running game is average  & Trin will have no problem stopping it.  LeClerc can pass & has decent receivers, but if you apply some pressure (no doubt you will) you can count on some picks. I see 35-7.  
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on October 16, 2005, 07:39:54 pm
despite a poor showing on saturday, it is hard to see colby losing another game, although tufts will be tough and bowdoin will be amped.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on October 16, 2005, 07:51:19 pm
Agree with your asessmment on Colby...they should have little trouble over the next two weeks with Bates and Hamilton.  It'll be interesting to see how Tufts handles the next two weeks vs Williams & Amherst. Two wins would be difficult but not impossible.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: TheLegend on October 16, 2005, 08:27:53 pm
Lets talk about an interesting little trend with the wesleyan cardinals. Why is it that the head coach continually passes the ball without a legit attempt at a run game? I mean they fell to Hamilton and just fell to an injury ridden Bobcat squad. Is it a pride/bragging thing to have the most prolific passing offense in the league? I mean they are struggling to keep thier completion percentage above 50% and their overall scheme seems to be hugely unorganized as they flail in the games they play. Head coahing regime change at Wes tech?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on October 17, 2005, 12:02:40 am
Legend: I totally agree.  When I played i was always amazed at the Wes gameplan. 


pass, pass, draw, pass, screen, pass, pass, pass, run, pass, etc.

They have a system that is totally out of wack with their players.  Sure, texas tech can pull it off but they practically wrote the book on it.

Wes's run game has always stunk, allowing defenses to pin their ears back and rush the quarterback with no abandon.  Like you said, they always get the numbers, but when you pass the ball 40-50 times a game you are not going to win games. 

What i find so funny is that that type of pass happy system goes contrary to basic football wisdom.  But hey, at least their QB will be all conference.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 17, 2005, 09:49:58 am
The Trinity players seemed impressed with Tufts this past week.  Still glad they sneaked out with a win.....sorry, snuck out. I forgot I was a  moronic Trinity athlete who had no business being admitted to any school in the country.  Anyway, 4-1 on the week Trin, puts me in a tie at 15-5.  (9-1) the last two weeks, the only blemish was Williams finally deciding to play football again....glad to see it from them. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: TheLegend on October 17, 2005, 09:56:24 am
I just think Hauser is A) either has some tricks up his sleeve for recruiting purposes or B) he has simply given up on the idea of a run game. I know a couple great kids that played for the Cards and they loved the game but all comment on how practice is still run like a HS practice i.e. the head coach is the one that makes the timeing decisions in practice and decides what gets worked on. I know at Trinity, for example, there is a clock that is broken down into 5 minute periods and practice is schedualed and the schedual is stuck to. Every time the clock alarm sounds off, the period changes and the next task is worked on. I think in no matter what people do in life, organization and a gameplan are necessary. You cant help but wonder if Hauser looks down at his watch sometimes hoping 2.5 hours hasnt gone by yet so he can squeeze some run into their team period.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 17, 2005, 10:17:30 am
Former: Although "snuck" has become an acceptable way to express the past tense of sneak, sneaked is still the proper usage according to the 2005 Webster's Unabridged Dictionary.

Nice job with your picks though, forcing a three-way tie with myself and dirty. I'm gonna hold off on this weeks picks until Friday, but I must agree with cruiser and Mariner that Colby will have little trouble untill Nov. 12 @ Bowdoin, and Tufts will struggle the next two weeks.

Legend and hufsfarts: Wesleyan has always been able to get by on athleticism and a sophisticated pass game. Their problem is that nearly every other NESCAC school has figured out how to beat them, and have also changed the way their programs operate in and out of season. If the Cards continue to run their football team like a high school program they'll soon become very accustom to their new role as NESCAC doormat.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 17, 2005, 10:27:42 am
15 and 5.....I am so pissed about Weslyan..they ruined my week.  Anyway, I would not be concerned about Trinity, it was a good game that was dominated by the weather more than the players.  I knew Amherst would play the spoiler in Maine this weekend, and am very nervous about Trinity's match up with them at their home field.  Looks like it could be a very exciting season after all?  Oh yeah, congrats to Bowdoin....the Bears are back for the first time.....since....early 1900's?  Could be way off there, but good job!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 17, 2005, 11:48:19 am
Indeed it is Trin...I was just showing that I shouldn't be able to use proper English b/c I went to Camp Trincool.edu....thanks for clearing up that issue, I'm keeping low on my picks till later in the week as well.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 17, 2005, 12:52:11 pm
. . . Oh yeah, congrats to Bowdoin....the Bears are back for the first time.....since....early 1900's?  Could be way off there, but good job!

You're not too far off there! The last time Bowdoin began the season with four straight wins was in 1938 . . .
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: pbfan on October 17, 2005, 01:58:21 pm
Bowdoin has yet to play a complete game this year. What makes college footballl so exciting is you never know how a team will play from week to week. One team has a great day and the other a bad day and anyone can beat anyone on any given week.

 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 17, 2005, 02:17:07 pm
pbfan: That has never been more evident than this past week in the NESCAC with Tufts coming close to one of the leagues biggest upsets and undefeated Colby getting smoked by Amherst at home. 

Your Polar Bears may have to play more than a complete game this week to have a shot at knocking off the Bantams. From what I've heard, Priore isn't too happy with his squad's showing against Tufts, and with a 4-0 record Bowdoin isn't sneaking up on anybody else this season.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on October 17, 2005, 03:09:46 pm
Can anyone enlighten me to Bowdoin's defensive situation.  Perhaps the question should be, "is bowdoins defense  offensive?"

BBAAAAZIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGG!!!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on October 17, 2005, 03:14:09 pm
sorry i forgot to mention this, i was laughing too hard at my super awesome joke.

Trin, i bet chuck ripped them.  he was just waiting for this type of thing to happen so he could give a little taste of chucky circa 2000-2001.  I bet he will be runnin their asses into the ground in ohhh about 3 hours.

I can just see him............."You think ya fuggin good?"  followed by the raised eyebrows and open palmed hands held up and of course..............the nasal huff.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 17, 2005, 03:29:08 pm
hufsfarts: I heard they didn't even get Sunday off. They were out on the Turf Sunday night running sprints, and no doubt hearing some classic Priore-isms.

My All-Time favorite is when he told a starting offensive lineman:

"Why don't you just go lock yourself in a closet with a loaded .45... and if the funeral is on a Saturday, I'M NOT GOING, because I've got a game to coach!"

That would even scare a 1600 SAT kid into playing better.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 17, 2005, 04:01:12 pm
There was a JV game on Sunday, saw some of the older guys making their way towards the game, but it didn't look like they were planning on working out.  But it did get dark pretty quick, so I might not have seen everything, but the JV game went pretty close till dusk.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 17, 2005, 04:22:20 pm
classic priore line....I remember when he said that.  Chuckles is a great coach who truly knows how to get under players' skins.  Have fun this week as "THE NEPOLIAN OF THE NESCAC" gets his team pissed off for the Bowdoin game.  I would be scared if I were Bowdoin.....to bad the winning has to end for them, but the "coop" will remain a sanctuary for the Bantam win streak.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 17, 2005, 04:38:23 pm
Side note....pretty amazing that Trinity and Amherst have exactly the same amount of total offense, yet the Bants have 62 more points.  Nearly the same total defense and the Bants have yielded 22 less points.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on October 17, 2005, 05:13:07 pm
I would just like to make a preemptive stike against dirtys refernce to "Nepolian" before all the haters start to get excited.

For the record, I beleive my college was referring to the French tyrant who, despite his implimintation of a legal code system that was quite good for europe, was nonetheless a megalomaniac who, after being defeated at the Battle of Waterloo by a combined force of British and Prussian troops, was exhiled (for the second time) to St. Helena in the south Atlantic.

This summation of NAPOLEON'S legacy is obviously concurrent with chuck priore's football career......sort of.

Alas, what will be chuck's Waterloo?



P.S. I am a huge nerd
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 17, 2005, 06:16:07 pm
Side note....pretty amazing that Trinity and Amherst have exactly the same amount of total offense, yet the Bants have 62 more points.  Nearly the same total defense and the Bants have yielded 22 less points.

Hmmm, Formerbant, they have the same amount of yards?  Perhaps that means that they use steroids or have lowered their standards in recent years?  Look into it and get back to us!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 17, 2005, 07:06:29 pm
and how about tufts?  those guys are 2 or 3 plays away from being 4-0 and atop the nescac.....
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on October 17, 2005, 07:26:15 pm
Agree to a point......(& I'm a Jumbo supporter).  Mistakes again killed Tufts, as in last year's game (look at those stats!) vs. Bowdoin.  Still convinced that Tufts is the better team, but that's why they play the games, right?  Against Trin, you never had the feeling that Tufts would be able to score, even with the last minute drive that had some spectacular catches until the int with 8 secs left.  During the second half, it felt like the Defense would need to get a score or get a turnover in superior field position but obviously that never happened. That's the way it seems every year in the NESCAC...a couple of plays can mean the difference for almost every team....& that's why it's great to watch.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 17, 2005, 08:45:01 pm
As former Hackley School Alum Chris Berman would say..."And that's why they play the games!"
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Bants79 on October 17, 2005, 09:36:18 pm
On the topic of Trinity football players being on drugs, moronic or anything to that extent, I defy anyone from another school to prove either of the claims.  Furthermore, if any of the other Nescac schools had the oppurtunity to take our players they would despite the grades.  Face it,  the other teams in the league are outworked year round by the players and the coaches and that is the only reason for the 20 something consecutive wins
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 17, 2005, 09:38:08 pm
is that Williams on the front page there opposite Trinity in that picture??  Ugly uniforms if it is, I like the old ones.....

check out the Hamilton coaching staff....they look like a cocky bunch of bastards if you ask me...

http://www.hamilton.edu/athletics/teamcoach.cfm?Identifier=mfootball
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 17, 2005, 10:07:37 pm
Utah....thats Amherst with Mr. Olenoski
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 17, 2005, 10:29:46 pm
thats what i thought, but i didnt know amherst got rid of that big old english A on their helmets
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 17, 2005, 11:02:20 pm
Yeah, huge mistake by Amherst ditching the Old English A... it was a good look. The numbers on the helmet look is played-out. First Tufts then Amhersts, didn't Colby do it one year too, but only on one side (talk about ugly).

The best Uni's in the NESCAC have to be Middlebury, good colors and a classic helmet.

The worst is a toss up between Wesleyan (plain helmets, and their jerseys always look 2 sizes too big) and Tufts (nobody can make brown and powder blue look good together)

Also, Bowdoin should put the paw print back on their helmets, and Bates needs a new logo.

Anyone else have any opinions?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 17, 2005, 11:22:11 pm
On the topic of Trinity football players being on drugs, moronic or anything to that extent, I defy anyone from another school to prove either of the claims.  Furthermore, if any of the other Nescac schools had the oppurtunity to take our players they would despite the grades.  Face it,  the other teams in the league are outworked year round by the players and the coaches and that is the only reason for the 20 something consecutive wins

Well, I guess we know who might be into the drugs . . .
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 17, 2005, 11:42:16 pm
The attitude of some of these people is astonishing and it makes me very thankful that I chose Trinity over Williams.  If I went to Williams, would I too be one of those people who looks at other people who went to a lower-ranked, yet elite liberal arts college as being inferior to myself?  How would I view people who went to State schools, or (GASP), maybe didn't even go to college at all?  Like trash?

Do you all honesty know how you all sound?  Trying to make other people embarassed because they might have slightly lower SATS (though almost uniformly FAR, FAR above the national average) and who went to a school that wasn't quite as fancyas your own is ridiculous.

An honest question: how do some of "you people" (i.e., the ones who are mocking Trinity posters and athletes present and past and attacking their intellect) think of people who weren't even able to get into Trinity?  If you are so much better than Trinity people, are those people (you know, the ones who are so amazingly worthless that they didn't get into Trinity) below dirt?  Do they have any value as human beings at all?  Most people in my year (having graduated a few years ago and working or going to grad school) know the type of jerks with high tight pants that think they are better than you because they went to a fancier school, or did better on the SATs.  I often wonder if they know how much everyone else hates them.  Anyway....

Above and beyond all the astonishing condescention, I'm almost embarassed for those who whine all day long and dream up reasons why they aren't able to achieve the same feats on the athletic field as Trinity.  In my final high school football game, I heard some players talking about how the team that creamed us had a player who should have been ineligible because of bad grades.  It made me sick.  We friggin' lost the game, real bad, and these turds were coming up with any excuse possible.  It takes alot to be a man and accept the fact that someone else is better than you.  Grow up.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: saul on October 18, 2005, 02:35:53 am
study break and i am high atop mountain dew. lol....i mean screaming.  trinity people: i'm lovin' the hurt, the feelin' all defensive 'bout your school. you guys know, i mean you just know, deep down  that you're the worst school academically in the league. you're rock bottom, boys, and it's not just you guys who know it, everybody knows it! trinity's not even in the top 100 most selective schools in the country-- now that's lame on a national level!  but you're not talkin' about kickin' butt on a national level just yet, right-- was that tufts you hammered 7-0 this weekend?-- and this is a nescac post, after all, so let's keep the nescac frame of reference here.  now, if i went to that embarrassment, that disgrace of a dump in hartford, i'd be all hurt and defensive too. really i would and, admit it, you even paid to go there. while your school's rep is the pits of the league, your school's been working on building up a program that's kickin' ass in the mighty nescac. good to see where the priorities are, right? well at least you can go destroy mt. union in the playoffs come december...oh,wait..... you can't. hey, now that doesn't seem like you're getting maximum utility out those ballplayin' boneheads bants does it? lol, every school you play is better than you academically and  it's not about someone's attitude or opinion, fellas, it's about facts....cold.....hard....quantifiable metrics. yes, just the facts, boys.....and that's what's gotta hurt soooooooo much. yes, bant551, it takes a man to admit that someone's better than you. now get someone to read this post to you
(very) slowly.... and then "grow up."


 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 18, 2005, 06:06:32 am
saul: You are an embarassment to yourself and indirectly the institutions with which you are aligned.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: ktroutvon on October 18, 2005, 08:43:28 am
I have to agree with Frank. 

I also think its a little disinegenuous to talk about Trinity as though they were far and away less prestigious than all the other NESCAC schools.  I went to an LL school (let the bashing begin), but was accepted to Hamilton and Trinity.  I'm also pretty sure that I could have gotten into Tufts, Colby and Bates (and possibly Wesleyan).  Clearly Amherst, Williams, Middlebury, Bowdoin and Wesleyan are a little better than the others, but often times the difference is study habits (which is a good thing) and not intelligence.  I only knew one Trinity football player and he was a crazy guy from N. Jersey so I can't speak for the team, but realistically, the gap isn't as large as its made out to be. 

I suppose that the Trinity people whould just accept it though.  Its pretty much human nature for this type of behavior to occur. 

For the record, anyone at Trinity who thinks they will hold their own with a top-5 ranked school is insane.  Look at LL schools record in the playoffs against those types of schools. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 18, 2005, 09:01:37 am
Saul, would you recommend that when i appear in front of a Judge as an advocate for a client, that I explain to him that my college was a top-25 liberal arts college, but that it is ranked slightly lower than the other schools in the league?

I just hope that you keep this stuff to yourself when you talk to people face-to-face.  That type of elitist attitude is probably indicative of how you view and treat other people in this world who didn't attend a school that is ranked as highly as yours.

You know, I never knew it would come to this.  Back when I was there (including my senior year), I never heard ANY of this stuff.  I mean none at all.  That is because at the time, with the EXACT SAME recruiting practices and academic standards, we went 4-4, 4-4, and a scrappy 7-1 in mostly close games.  I wish I could have gone back in time and told Priore not to work as hard, and tell the players to take most of the summers off from weightlifting like they do at Williams.  Have you ever even seen their weightroom over there?  I've visited a bunch of times and think Williams is a nice place, but if you go into that weightroom, first of all, there is very little power-lifting equipment, and second of all, I saw one, maybe two football players in the gym.  Its a different world these days and your schools will not be able to compete if they don't put in the effort in the off-season.  I saw guys at Trinity from before Priore that Priore inherited who became monsters from his lifting and running program, sans juice.

The whole crying when someone is better than you deal wasn't really my bag.  Maybe THIS is the direction the NESCAC is going in.  I can assure you that most of the posters here think it is hysterical when you post things like that.  "What kind of a whimp would write these things", etc.

It reminds me of "Thats all right, thats OK, you will pump our gas someday".  There is probably nothing more humiliating to the ATHLETES ON THE FIELD than when their crowd tries to degrade the other team that just kicked their butts all over the field.   But I guess you are a player and you are into that stuff.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 18, 2005, 09:30:26 am
It's refreshing to read unbiased opinions from those with no NESCAC ties.

Saul: There is always somebody better than you. Trinity probably wouldn't beat the top 5 Division III team in the country. But those teams wouldn't beat a good DII team, and those teams wouldn't stand a chance against any decent 1A team. Just as Trinity isn't as highly ranked as Williams, Amherst, Bowdoin etc. (yes, we can admit it like men) those schools can't compete with Ivy League schools and don't have the national reputation of a Stanford or Duke While we're at it why not throw in Oxford and Cambridge?

Trinity is in the NESCAC because it is one of the premier liberal arts colleges in the country. My problem with your post Saul isn't that I feel inferior because of my school, or it's national academic ranking. I'm actually very proud to have been lucky enough to attend such a prestigious college. I met great friends and have a great career, due in large part to my decision to go there. My problem is that you seem to blame the football program for Trinity's academic standing.

Why didn't any one at Williams or Amherst complain about Trinity's admissions standards until the Bantams started soundly beating them in football? I find it hard to believe that Chuck Priore and his 10 tips a year are enough to bring down the academic reputation of a school with more than 2,000 students. That's 0.02% for 40 players (10 per year) who were admitted to Trinity with help from the football program.

You were right about one thing Saul... this IS a NESCAC board. However, keep in mind it is a NESCAC FOOTBALL board. So please get off of your pedestal and come back down to earth so that we can discuss some pigskin. If you do indeed insist on contributing your opinion please continue with your scintillating remarks about how Trinity didn't win by enough points. I'll hapilly argue all day about a sloppy Trinity win... especially if it's against Amherst.

By the way Saul I'll be heading up your way on Nov. 5th for the Bants vs Jeffs... I'd love the oportunity to speak to you man to man at the tailgate and discuss
that embarrassment, that disgrace of a dump in hartford
with you in person. Please let me know if you'll be available.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 18, 2005, 09:42:04 am
Let's not forget that Trinity has by far the best looking student body in the NESCAC, hands down....I mean they have models walking around that campus, I've seen it.

Frank:  Once again, your wisdom is awesome.  

Ktroutvon:  We don't necessarily feel that Trinity would be at the same level as Linfield, Mt. Union and those schools...they're miles ahead of pretty much everyone, but give Trinity a few games against them and they'll find a way to make it very competitive if not win.  Trinity is a very tough team to prepare for, very balanced offensively this year and have tons of different looks to throw at teams.  3 different QB's, sometimes lining up w/o a QB...must drive opposing D-Coordinators nuts every week.  They've had 15 guys with receptions and consistently use 5 RB's.  Not to mention how skilled and deep their own Defense is.  It takes a lot to win the whole thing, I don't know if Trinity would do that anytime soon, but they could be at that level if given the chance and Priore sticks around.

As for Trinity's work ethic:  I work out in the same gym as football players from UPenn and Williams during the summer along with a few other college athletes, and Trinity's workout is very, very similar to UPenn's while Williams' was rather elementary in comparison.

Trin:  Couldn't agree with you more about being a proud Alum.

As for Trinity's recruiting:  If you were a high school athlete, why wouldn't you want to go to a school with a very attractive female population along with an outstanding social scene that can all be found right on your campus?  Not to mention a dedicated coaching staff and a program that wins.
Title: Bowdoin v. Trinity
Post by: 4u on October 18, 2005, 09:50:22 am
Please accept my advanced apology for lack of knowledge about the NESCAC.  That said, a few common denominators have lead me to your board on Bowdoin v. Trinity week.  I never thought Bowdoin would get my attention against one of the top teams in its league but it has.  Could someone (who may have seen both-- or, at least, one-- of the teams play) enlighten me as to whether or not this will even be a game?  I would have guessed that Bowdoin's early success was based on a favorable schedule and that this game would prove to be a discouraging reality check.  Then, I noticed that Trinity had a scare last week.  Is the pressure of "the streak" catching up with Trinity?  Or, did they simply have a poor performance?  Long story short, does Bowdoin have any chance here or will this be like the last few meetings between the schools?
4u
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 18, 2005, 09:55:30 am
My guess is it will be closer than in past years, but not by much.  Trinity's mud bowl last weekend slowed everything down.  Neither team could do much offensively.  Trinity scored in the 1st quarter when the field was at its best condition (most likely, I wasn't there but pretty safe to assume).  Playing at Trin is no easy task.  With the weather looking good for the rest of the week, and the Bants playing at home, I don't see it being a very close game....but no games are won on Tuesday mornings while sitting at a computer.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 18, 2005, 10:24:31 am
4u: The combined records of both Trinity and Bowdoin's opponents are both 6-10, so I don't think either team has had an easier schedule than the other. However, in 3 of Bowdoin's 4 wins the margin of victory has been a mere 1, 2 and 3 points. They did beat up Hamilton 21-7, but the Bantams beat the Continentals 58-0 (with all scoring done before the 4th quarter).

I agree with former's assessment that the field conditions slowed Trinity's offense for much of the Tufts game. On the turf in the Coop Trinity is sure to put up at least 28-35 points. While their defense (who has allowed 6 points the entire year so far) should be able to contain the Polar Bears and hold them to at most 10 points.

I'm sure Priore isn't too happy about the scare in Medford and will be looking to prove that there is only one powerhouse in NESCAC football. If Bowdoin plays extremely well they could make it a game, but I think Trinity is going to be too tough for them to handle and the Polar Bear undefeated streak will end at 4.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: big toe on October 18, 2005, 10:36:32 am

*Just to go back to an earlier point, I'm a Williams fan but I'm also a NESCAC fan in general because its members value academics more than anything else. Believe me it's very different in that sense from the other d3 football leagues around the country. I believe a lot of other d3 fans envy us for it and wish their league put academics first, too. 

*Saul might not be very politically correct but he's backing up his general message with facts and also saying what's on a lot of minds around the league. Some fans at Trinity ridicule the league in the past for not keeping league standings and joke about how maybe they shouldn't even keep score. You talk scores and smack all the time but when someone like Saul starts talking about a different scoreboard ( like admissions rates, rankings), the one that pretty well explains Trinity's success on the field you guys are all of a sudden very politically correct and sensitive guys.  Maybe you would be happier if the annual college rankings were just listed in alphabetical order or handed out self-esteem points for hurt feelings? People in glass houses... 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: ktroutvon on October 18, 2005, 10:44:39 am
That may be a fair point. 

Alternatively, to compare NESCAC schools is a little short sighted compared with the entire academic universe.  If most of my friends and I can work at BCG, McKinsey, Goldman, CSFB etc. (as well as Harvard Med, Columbia Law, etc.) coming from Hobart, I am pretty sure that Trinity students can do just about anything they want if they put any effort into school while they are there.  I don't know what the Trinity students do in the academic efforts, but it's not as though they go to Plattsburg or Keene St. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 18, 2005, 10:55:36 am
As I've said before, many of the Trinity football players get amazing jobs after college also.  The NESCAC in general does very well post-graduation.  Some of the guys that are posting in here have very good jobs for being just out of school.  And while that may be what other schools are whispering about, we can't hear you at Trinity b/c we're too busy having fun and enjoying college for what it is....a 4 year party.  We work hard, and play harder.  Being #24 or whatever the exact ranking is is good enough for us. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 18, 2005, 11:26:10 am


*Saul might not be very politically correct but he's backing up his general message with facts and also saying what's on a lot of minds around the league.

I respectfully disagree with your point.  I think Saul has been making bald, conclusory allegations based entirely upon inferences.  The ONLY basis for his arguments that have any basis in FACT, whatsoever, as opposed to PURE SPECULATION is that Trinity football has been dominant the past 3 years or so.  So, as far as Saul is conceding that Trinity has been a powerhouse recently, his statements are based in fact. 

I ask that you point out some sort of sourced/verifiable STATISTIC, QUOTE, or other sort of TANGIBLE EVIDENCE that Saul has put forward which support Saul's inflammatory allegations that recruiting improprieties are taking place, that standards have been lowered at Trinity, or that some other sort of sketchy tactics are being used.

To wit, I don't think Saul has offered any sort of evidence that Trinity football players do not have success in the classroom, do not attend classes, etc.  Nor has he provided even a scintilla of evidence showing that recruiting standards have been lowered compared to when Trinity was a league doormat (or one of those excruciatingly bland 4-4 teams that Trinity fielded before this current streak).

The ONLY basis for Saul's attacks on Trinity has been the amazing success that we have had in recent years.  Period.  Its embarassing really.  It amounts to nothing more than sour grapes.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on October 18, 2005, 11:38:12 am
I know i have harped on this issue several times in the past, but i will mention once more.....

where does the tire meet the road in college acaemically?

where the student meets the professor in class for lectures - discussions.

I was a history major and I can say without any hesitation that the quality of teaching I received, frequently in classes with less than 10 people, was absolutely outstanding.

I think this is where the difference between the NESCAC schools is the smallest.  Sure, I bet Williams and Amherst, Bowdoin, Wes Tech and others have outstanding profs too, perhaps more academically accomplished (ie wrote more books).  But when it comes down to it, Trinity's profs are increadibly intelligent, devoted to teaching their students, and expect a great deal of hard work from them, football player or not.

Before all the williams alums get excited, let me once again say....sure your profs may be better qualified resumewise.....but that does not always translate into a better teacher, although I am sure that other NESCAC schools do have wonderful teachers and certainly some that are better teachers than trins.  

I guess what I am saying is that the quality of teaching within the NESCAC is extremely high, and I mean very very high, regardless of the fact that you are the lowest ranked in term of difficulty to get into (even though it is very difficult to get into).  And I am positive that if you asked any NESCAC profs about the other NESCAC profs they would only have very positive things to say.  

OK enough of that.

Is anyone going to the Bowdoin game?  I am thinking of going if the weather is nice.  Maybe just sit in the stands, have a couple "sodas" and watch a reved up Bants team and a reved up Polar Bear team duke it out.  
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: ktroutvon on October 18, 2005, 11:42:00 am
I have to say that the smartest thing Trinity ever did was force Dick Hersh out.  He was a drain on the life of Hobart and it looks like the same at Trinity.  I think I read that his tenure at Trinity was the shortest of a college president in the history of academia.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 18, 2005, 11:50:04 am
Big Toe: I disagree that the Trinity posters have shied away from the fact that Trinity has the lowest academic rank in the NESCAC. In fact I'm the one who found and posted the U.S. News and World Report rankings.

I did that because I am proud to be an alumnus one of the 25 best liberal arts colleges in the nation. There is no shame in that for me (regardless of the fact that other NESCAC schools are ranked higher).

It seems to me that every week we circle around this same issue.

Trinity has a slight advantage in recruiting because they can accept players that others NESCAC schools can not. My argument is that Trinity has ALWAYS had that advantage. Why is it just the past 2 or 3 years that we have seen the Bantams dominate the league in such a way?

The reason Trinity has the best football program in the history of the NESCAC, is because Priore has done an outstanding job of finding academically eligible recruits from across the country and has been able to instill in them a winning mentality based on the principles of hard work, dedication and commitment both in and out of season.


ktroutvon: I couldn't agree more, Hersh was the worst.

hufsfarts: I'll be at the game, hope to see you there.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: ktroutvon on October 18, 2005, 11:52:07 am
Shouldn't Hamilton be an above average team if looking at selectivity? 

I know they are awful, but the same profile of kid looks at Hamilton as Trinity (from a raw score kind of standpoint, I realize that there are vast differences culturally between the two schools).
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Knightstalker on October 18, 2005, 12:03:23 pm
I love it when Saul posts, he gives us much insite into the elitest mindset.  I have learned that you have to attend William or Amherst to be able to attend a top flight Ivy league Law or medical school.  I guess those kids I knew at NJCU (a lowly NJ state university filled with low life dummies that couldn't spell Amherst or Williams) that went on to Ivy League schools that they can't do that because they weren't fortunate enough to have a mommy or daddy that could afford the best prep schools.  Forget about the NJCU graduates that become teachers and go to schools like Columbia, NYU, Cornell, Rutgers for their bachelors or doctorates, they aren't smart enough for them either, well maybe Rutgers, after all it is a state school albeit a state school with admission standards that come pretty close to those of Duke and Stanford.  Of course none of the Computer Science majors would be able to go on to schools like MIT, Steven Tech, NJIT etc because they are only state school students.

Saul get a clue.  I have one question for you, did you attend a private high school or a public high school?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 18, 2005, 12:05:44 pm
ktroutvon: That's exactly my point, even Bates is a comparable school to Trinity in terms of academics. Why aren't Hamilton and Bates dominating the league if they have comparable numbers to Trinity?

Is it because they're not cheating the right way, or could it possibly be that their program simply isn't run as well as Priore's?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Knightstalker on October 18, 2005, 12:14:00 pm
The quality of the classroom experience is extremely important.  The professional qualifications of the majority of the professors at NJCU were extremely impressive.  In the music department there were professors with doctorates from Michigan, Columbia, Julliard, Eastman, Notre Dame, Penn, Princeton, Harvard, Yale and two with doctorates from the Paris Conservatory of Music (one of the finest music schools in the world)  Many performed on Broadway or with one of the many symphony orchestras in the NY metro area or were touring jazz musicians.  There were journalism professors that worked for major newspapers, networks etc, media professors working for major networks and radio stations, recording studios.

The point is there are outstanding professors on every level of college from Ivies on down to Junior and community colleges.  I also know what you mean by the small class sizes.  At NJCU the majority of the classes within the different majors were usually fairly small which leads to deeper discussions and more personal time with a professor which is invaluable.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Bants79 on October 18, 2005, 12:35:48 pm
Prediction for the "Big Game" this weekend between Trinity and Bowdoin.  Trinity wins by at least 20 more likely 30+
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 18, 2005, 02:00:21 pm
Gents: If Trinity is emotionally ready and doesn't let up and if the track is fast,  then Trinity is very approximately 50 points superior, but I expect it to let up in the second half even if it is ready and even if the track is fast. Consequently the prediction is Trinity minus 30 with a fast track.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 18, 2005, 02:09:29 pm
Frank: Expect the track to be very fast, as the surface at Trinity's Jesse/Miller field is "Field-Turf". No matter the conditions, it plays as well as a dry grass field.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 18, 2005, 02:21:36 pm
Trin:  Agreed...look at what happened to Hamilton on a rainy day.  I know Bowdoin is better than Hamilton, but expect some fired up Bants.  I'm thinking the D wants another shutout.  What's the most # of shutouts by a NESCAC team???
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 18, 2005, 02:33:17 pm
Former: The record for most shutouts in a NESCAC season is 4. It was accomplished by Middlebury in 2000 and by both Amherst and Trinity in 2003. I think this years Trinity defense will shatter that record and could possibly break the record for fewest points allowed in a season. The 2003 Trinity defense holds that record with 30 points (3.75 per game).
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 18, 2005, 03:35:55 pm
Thanks for the info
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 18, 2005, 03:53:59 pm
Amhert's defense in 2001 (I think 2001) was insanely good - the year McGee and Landolfi were seniors.  I think some of them were D-IAA quality and I KNOW that alot of those guys would be great players at any D-3 school in the country.

I wonder how Trinity's current defense (or from the last few years) would stack up to Amhert's from that year (the year they temporarily broke the scoring defense record).  Unfortunately I haven't been to a Trin game since Pierandri broke the league (or was it a Trinity record) rushing record (game) against Wesleyan a few years ago, so my only basis of comparison is statistics.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 18, 2005, 03:59:20 pm
I believe Pierandri's game broke both Trinity and NESCAC records.....quite a performance it was.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 18, 2005, 04:23:08 pm
The 2001 Amherst D let up 49 points. However, they didn't allow a touchdown until the 6th game of the season. And they allowed 23 points in a season finale loss to Williams, but 6 of those came in overtime.

It's tough to say which defense is better, the league was probably a little bit stronger in 2001. But the Trinity defense of 2003 let up fewer points and won all 8 games.

I don't think it's fair for me to say because I am too biased towards the Bants.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on October 18, 2005, 05:08:43 pm
Response to 4u & others looking for info on the Trinity/Bowdoin game this Saturday........Tufts played both teams the past two consecutive Saturdays.  Against Bowdoin, on a WET field, Tufts held Bowdoin to 148 total yards (48 rushing) and had 356 yds themselves in the 10-8 loss.  Tufts shot themselves in the foot with 2 ints and 9-75 yds in penalties.

Last week on a MUD field vs Trinity, Tufts lost 7-0......Trinity had 218 total yards & held Tufts to 161 yards.  Tufts again had drive killers with 4 int's, incl one on the last drive with 8 seconds to go.

Trinity will dominate Bowdoin 35-7.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 18, 2005, 07:05:26 pm
sorry Im not gonna talk about academics but, I think Hamilton has the best unis in the game....and Tufts needs to get that elephant back on the helmet, and I hate the gold trinity uniforms...and they have to get that chicken back on there!!!!!  And I remember bowdoin had an actual polarbear on their helmet at one time.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: gordonmann on October 18, 2005, 07:11:26 pm
I love the Bants cartoon Clamorin' cluck.

It should be a required element of every Trinity garb, athletic related or not...
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on October 18, 2005, 07:31:50 pm
I agree with the Cock on the Helmet, classic look.  however, i couldnt disagree with you more on the gold jersy issue.  those things are HOT.  and man the bants look good in it.  too bad the last loss before hte streak to williams occured with white on white for hte bants.  i always liked that look, but as far as i can tell, chuck has forever banished it. 

As for the cock, he is still with us, just look at the 50 yeard line in the coop!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 18, 2005, 07:34:07 pm
I like the T too, but gold jerseys are awful..Georgia tech has em and I think theyre ugly on them too.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 18, 2005, 07:36:00 pm
And I hate the new big stripe on the jerseys without the stripe on the pants.  A few teams have that look and I dont think it goes well.  You can have a pants stripe without the jerseystripe, but you cant have the jerseystripe without the pantsstripe....just my opinion though
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 18, 2005, 09:57:19 pm
Love the gold unis, and the cock on the helmet was hilarious.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 18, 2005, 10:32:47 pm
Big toe and Saul post from the same IP address, as does BobbyJ. How many people do you need to create to back up your point, Saul?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 18, 2005, 11:08:04 pm
Get 'em Pat...hahahahhahahahahha.....That's absolutely pathetic.

Gold Uniforms are they way to go, all the teams are starting to take the old gold look after the hoops did it a few years back.  I like the gold top with the blue pants, never been a fan of matching top and bottom for football....I'll agree with Roonyfarts that the all white was pretty good.  But the team must be good for it to look good, otherwise you can ask Colonel Nathan Jessup how he feels about all white uniforms.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 19, 2005, 09:09:08 am
Love the uni talk. Pat, you just made my day. You're a clown Saul.

Tufts should definately get the elephant back on the helmet. Bowdoin needs to get either the paw or the bear back on the theirs. Amherst should go back to the old english A. Bates needs a new bobcat logo. Wesleyan needs to redo their entire look. Hamilton has good uni's (can't go wrong with Nike) they just make it look terrible because they're so bad. No beef with the Ephs (a cow just doesn't belong on a helmet and they've had that same look for so long it would be a shame to change it). Colby has a solid look as long as they stick to the C on the helmet and ditch the #'s.

If Trin changes it's official school colors to old gold I'd be good with it. But the school colors are navy and gold, not navy and old gold. I don't like the inconsistency with the teams wearing different colors (even if it's only a slight difference).

I like the gold jersey look mostly because of their personal significance. The first time Trinity wore them was against Williams in '03, and no one knew about them. We did our pregame warm-up in the navy jersey's, but when we got back to the locker room they were all laid out for us. The locker room erupted and Trinity beat Williams for the 1st time since '96.

I think the gold jersey's with the gold pants is a little bit too much, maybe a stripe would help. I agree white on white is a GREAT look, and I never realized they haven't worn it since their last loss.

I wouldn't mind seeing the Bantam back on the helmet. Maybe, Chuck will get some throwback uni's for Homecoming one of these years.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 19, 2005, 03:37:10 pm
Trin:  I heard that the original school colors were Old Gold and Navy, but the use of Varsity Gold became very popular and much cheaper to buy.  I agree with the inconsistency of the Gold....the women's soccer team was wearing a bright bright yellow, hurt the eyes of the older people watching the game.  Wrestling uses Old Gold, hoops does too, baseball has used both in the last 3 years but more recently Old.  Men's hockey dons Varsity Gold, I think Old would not look good on the ice.  I like that the Old was a surprise for you guys, I was quite surprised as well when I first saw it. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 19, 2005, 06:58:27 pm
I think one of them is called "vegas" gold now???
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 19, 2005, 07:00:06 pm
I love goooooooooooooold!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 19, 2005, 07:12:45 pm
Alright ladies here are the winning picks for this week:

Colby  @ Hamtech   35-10, Look out, the mules are upset that they wont get
                                          their 8-0 season after all.

Westech @ Amherst   7-35, The Lord Jeffs have once again played the bad guy
                                           (good guy) spoiling Colby's shot at 8-0.  They will
                                            play with alot of confidence through the rest of the
                                            season.

Middlebury @ Bates  21-10, The Panthers are not as bad as thier record.

Bowdoin @ Trinity 14-31, The Bants have not lost on their home field for over 2
                                         years now.  Last weeks win should have been 28-0
                                         (touchdowns called back).  Dirty Birds keep the streak
                                         alive, pounding polar bears back to mediocrity.

Tufts @ Williams 21-24, The Jumbos should have some confidence going in, but
                                      the Ephs finally exploded on offense last week.  Home
                                      field advantage goes to the Ephs who barely pull out a
                                      win.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on October 19, 2005, 08:06:43 pm
hey dirtybirds....talk to me about the "touchdowns called back".....
there was one..and it was obvious...the others??????????
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 19, 2005, 08:15:52 pm
Utah...Vegas Gold is the same as Old Gold....I'll get my picks out hopefully tomorrow.  Lotta pressure this week w/ the 3 way tie right now, huh boys?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on October 19, 2005, 08:29:16 pm
DB.......either you got bad info or you were mired in the mud with some Jumbo homecomers.  Watch the replay on Jumbocast (the best) and you'll see there were no other touchdowns called back.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: 2sportdevil on October 20, 2005, 09:38:03 am
After reviewing Div III top 25 today, anyone know why Trinity wouldn't be included? Is there politics since NESCAC doesn't participate in the playoffs?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 20, 2005, 09:53:59 am
Dirty: Solid picks once again. I wish I could disagree with them:

Colby  31
Hamilton  7

This one's a no-brainer. Look for the Mules to cruise to their season finale against Bowdoin in a game that could decide second place in the NESCAC.

Amherst 28
Wesleyan 6

A good tune up for Amherst before they get to the tough part of their schedule. Wesleyan blew their only chance for a win this year last week against Bates.

Middlebury 21
Bates 20

After a much needed win last week the Bobcats fall to Middlebury in a tight one. The Panthers finally get their first win of the year.

Trinity 45
Bowdoin 10

The Bantams leave no doubt as to who the better undefeated team is. Priore will have his team anxious to redeem themselves after a close call against the Jumbos. The Polar Bears imporobable streak ends at 4.

Williams 12
Tufts 7

The Ephs have really stuggled against good defenses this year. However, I think last week they turned the corner and will edge out Tufts in a sloppy home win.

Former: This is your chance to take the lead or fall behind. Whatcha got?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 20, 2005, 10:05:04 am
2sport: The rankers like as much advance certainty in their picks as they can get. The fact that Trinity's opposition plays only within its conference makes the rankers extremely nervous. Consequently they tend to resolve doubts against NESCAC colleges. Additionally my eyes tell me that NESCAC is much weaker this year than usual - not that the rankers are necessarily aware of that condition.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 20, 2005, 10:05:34 am
2sport: It's impossible to say how Trinity would fair against the rest of DIII because they don't play anyone outside of the NESCAC. The reason they're not included is that the voters either don't respect the level of football being played in the NESCAC in relation to the other conferences that have top 25 teams, or they just don't want to deal with the controversy of ranking a NESCAC team higher than a traditional D3 power.

I'm curious to see how the Bants would do if they were eligible for the NCAA's... but I guess we'll never know.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 20, 2005, 11:48:17 am
So the question is do I play it safe and pick like the rest of 'em, or do my own thing......
Let's start with the easy ones

Trinity 42....Bowdoin 7....Priore pulls the plug again and Bowdoin gets one on the rookies.  Don't expect much against the first team D though, they want another shutout.
Colby 35....Hamilton 10....agreed
Amherst 28....Wes 14.....Amherst needs a cake walk here.
Middlebury 24....Bates 10....can't disagree on that one either, Bates is too bad.
Tufts 21....Williams 20....toughest pick, but can't go against family.  If Tufts is up, watch out for Williams to use their hi-tech weather system to get them back in the game.  They tried it last year against Trin, but still got smoked.

Should be some good games this week.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 20, 2005, 01:14:05 pm
After reviewing Div III top 25 today, anyone know why Trinity wouldn't be included? Is there politics since NESCAC doesn't participate in the playoffs?

Im sure theres some bias/politics involved too.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 20, 2005, 01:45:54 pm
There are biases/politics in every poll, that's just how humans are.  We have feelings, whether it be hometown pride or rooting for the underdog, everyone will have some type of flaw in their voting.  The only way polls get around it is if there are enough people voting to balance out those issues.  But it is hard to argue against keeping Trinity out of the top 25 b/c they don't play anyone.  The voters @ D3hoops have not had trouble voting for Trinity when they have been good, and taken away votes when they didn't deserve them....but the basketball team competes out of the conference and out of the region making it much easier to gauge where they are nationally.  For instance in the 2003-04 season Trinity beat #2 Amherst and gained a ton of votes, then lost to unranked Hunter a week later and dropped 5 spots.  It is tough when there is one very dominant team in a conference that doesn't play anyone else unless you see them live....and I don't think 25 voters are willing to make a trip to Hartford just to see them play.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 20, 2005, 02:01:14 pm
former: I agree polls are destined to be flawed because of the human element. Luckily the folks who run division III are smart enough to have a playoff to determine the national champion instead of relying heavily on polls like in D1.

However, here in the NESCAC we're the smartest of them all... We don't have a poll, a playoff or even a championship game. And sometimes the best teams don't even play each other. Now that's smart!

You did a good job with your picks, but Tufts is gonna cost you. I think you may have let your own bias interfere with your judgement. The Jumbos have a history of falling apart in the second half of the season, and their lack of offense will cost them in a game that should be low scoring to begin with.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 20, 2005, 03:04:59 pm
Tufts hasn't let me down yet....and yes my biased is towards alma mater, family ties, better nicknames in the conference....in that order.  That and I have always enjoyed seeing Williams lose.  Wouldn't it be boring if we all had the same picks for the final weeks??
Couldn't agree more on the playoff system to determine a champion.  Pat, is there any other group in the NCAA that doesn't use a playoff besides 1A football?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 20, 2005, 05:02:45 pm
If anyone is interested:

The Trinity College football team and its current winning streak of 26 games will be the subject of a one-hour documentary, which will be broadcast nationally on College Sports Television (CSTV). The program will focus on the Trinity football game on Oct. 1 against Williams College, which the Bantams won, 34-6, to break the New England Division III win streak record of 23 victories. The show will also showcase the spirited football rivalry between the two storied small college football powers and give a behind-the-scenes look at the Trinity and Williams football programs. The documentary is scheduled to premiere on Thu., Oct. 20 at 8 p.m. and will run again at 11 p.m. that night and several times over the next week until Oct. 29.

CSTV is available to satellite subscribers on DirecTV channel 610, EchoStar’s DISH network channel 152, and to regular cable subscribers nationwide through many of the top cable operators. New England-area fans and alums can find CSTV on Adelphia’s Digital Tier, and on the sports tiers of Charter and Comcast – additional information is also available online at www.cstv.com. Fans throughout the nation should consult their local cable companies to find out the best and easiest way to get CSTV.

(taken from: http://www.trincoll.edu/athletics/main.aspx?mode=story&s_id=T481 )
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 20, 2005, 06:30:38 pm
mariner: I am assuming you went to the game?  I heard from one of the coaches that they should have scored several touchdowns...2 called back and one dropped pass that should have been caught.  Oh by the.....TUFTS LOST, so watch your attitude.  Post me something when it matters.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on October 20, 2005, 06:58:13 pm
db......Yes I was there & watched the broadcast replay also. There was one Trinity td called back for a penalty & each team had numeous drops...that's not they way you portrayed it in your post.  I'm well aware the Tufts lost.....I'm also well aware that I'm not the one with the attitude.....thanks.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: First6Ws on October 20, 2005, 07:27:48 pm
A few points...Weather is the great equalizer.  That's how Tufts stayed close with the Bants...Never expect a team called the Mules to go undefeated...and NEVER doubt a hoard of Chickens in the Coop.  Bants roll 38-10, with maybe 3 coming against the first team D.  I love the chicken on everything but the helmets.  My freshman year -wait DB, were you there? no, no you weren't there- we wore the chickens on the varsity gold helmet.  Not attractive, but I did hound the coaches to push for the chicken on the new field and the results have been remarkable.   
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on October 20, 2005, 07:44:59 pm
No doubt about the weather.  Just trying to keep it real rather than hype.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on October 20, 2005, 10:42:18 pm
I am still looking for somebody to give me a heads up on the Bowdoin defense.........and more importantly, their d-line.  if its the same as years past, then there is no way in hell they are going to be able to stop a suprisingly good and young bants oline with all those tailbacks behind rain or shine.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 21, 2005, 09:22:01 am
hufsfarts: The Polar Bear d-line is comprised of Mike Stratton ('04 All-NESCAC) as well as the '04 team-leader in sacks Zach Hammond. Dylan Brix moved from linebacker to defensive end, while Michael Vitousek is the other end. At linebacker they return '04 All-NESCAC honoree Shaun Kezer (team high 84 tackles last season). The outside backers are Dave Donahue and John Regan. They have 3 returning DB's Brendan Murphy,Steve Curwen and Mike Minogue and a freshman cornerback Sean Welch who play for them.

It's an experienced group but not overly talented. Sure almost all of them played last year... but they were ranked dead last in total defense, and allowed 509 last year to Trinity.

I agree the young Bantam o-line has played suprisingly well. Combine that with a Trinity defense that leads the league in almost every statistical category and dispite the rain Bowdoin's luck will run out this week and they they'll become victim #27.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: pbfan on October 21, 2005, 09:35:00 am
Ali beats Liston
Douglas beats Tyson
US Hockey beats Soviets
Jets beat Colts
Mets beat Orioles

Upset (100-1) beats previously unbeaten Man O'War

Red Sox come back from 3 games down to win ALCS

Believe
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 21, 2005, 11:21:17 am
A lot of underestimated opponents in those wins/upsets...I more liken it to Super Bowl XX Bears 46 Patriots 10

Believe That
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 21, 2005, 11:37:13 am
pbfan: Stranger things have happend, however in more than a few of those examples the favorite overlooked the eventual winner. With a chance to knock off the only other undefeated team in New England I doubt the Bantams will be looking past the Polar Bears to get ready for 0-4 Middlebury.

But like they say, "That's why they play the game!" Will you be watching in Hartford tomorrow?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on October 21, 2005, 01:09:12 pm
Did anyone see the documentary?  My cable service did not provide it. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 21, 2005, 01:47:42 pm
Just read the Trinity press release about its immediately upcoming game against Bowdoin. Sounds like Godzilla against Orphan Annie. Send in Daddy Warbucks.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: pbfan on October 21, 2005, 01:58:16 pm
David vs. Goliath
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: PB5 on October 21, 2005, 02:37:49 pm
I am with you pbfan. while they haven't really dominated this year, the bears have an uncanny way of sticking around in a game (even over the last two years, save the 41-0 defeat to Trinity last year). When you stick around, anything can happen.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 21, 2005, 02:47:38 pm
Did anyone see the documentary? My cable service did not provide it.

I saw it on direct TV last night and it was very well done.  The first few segments did an excellent job of outlining the history of both the Williams win streak in the early '90s and the current Trinity win streak.  It detailed the significance of the rivalry in relation to New England football history and how the game always had such an impact on the final NESCAC standings because the two schools always play so early in the year and are usually both very good.

There were a few points throughout the program that got me thinking though. As a former Trinity player I agreed with their point of view that despite the Trinity-Wesleyan rivalry, Williams is always the biggest game of the year for the Bantams. However, I couldn't help but think what people from Williams and even Amherst would think about the documentary. Despite so much being on the line every year in the Trinity-Williams game... is it really that big of a rivalry game for the Ephs, or are they too concerned with the Jeffs? I’m sure Williams enjoyed holding the record for consecutive wins and hated having Trinity break the streak against them, but will it really matter to the Ephs as long as they beat Amherst?

It's only a rivalry if the game means as much to both team. I also thought it was a shame how they portrayed the October 1st game as a summation of the entire streak. They didn't mention even one of the previous 24 games and chose soley to focus on a 34-6 blow-out. I realize they didn't have footage of the other games but some of them should have been mentioned. The 2 point win against Middlebury in '02, the 10-0 win over Williams in '03 and even the comeback win against Amherst were all great sub-plots that could have added to the real story of the streak.

I loved the footage from the legendary '91 Trinity-Williams game that had 4 lead changes in the final minute and a half. And the coaches and players gave great insight in their interviews. However, I found it insulting that the producers tried to convince the viewer that Williams was even in the game after the 2nd quarter, and that it was a hard fought win. I was at the game, and it was one of the most boring Trinity games I've ever seen.

Overall it was very well produced and fun to watch as a Trinity and NESCAC football fan. However, it missed out on the real story. Trinity's win streak has been accomplished because the coaches and players know that it is about more than just one game, therefore the story should have been about the streak and more than just one game.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on October 21, 2005, 04:13:08 pm
Trin,  i sure you were upset the 03 amherst comeback win wasnt incorporated  :)  i agree though, if they didnt get any of those games in, even mention them in passing, they did a diservice to the streak
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 21, 2005, 04:37:25 pm
huftfarts: That '03 Amherst comeback is arguable the most exciting game of the streak... especially when that extremely smart (not to mention incredibly handsome) Trinity player scored on the punt return because the Amherst players failed to down the ball.  ;D


PB5: Don't expect the Bants to let the Polar Bears hang around. This year Trinity has outscore its opponents 95-0 in the first half.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 21, 2005, 04:38:32 pm
Trin, I agree with Roony on the Amherst game.  But don't worry about things you can't control.  
About the rivalry factor...there is a similar situation for Trin in hoops, especially the last couple years.  Since the conference tourney started, Amherst has played in every final game.  Without Williams winning it all in 02-03, Amherst has clearly been the class of the league.  Last year Trinity and Amherst played in the first weekend of conference play.  Going into the season it seemed like that game was going to decide who won the conference title.  It meant everything to the Trinity players, but the Williams-Amherst rivalry seems to trump everything in the NESCAC.  One weekend of play in 03-04 saw #11 Trinity play at #6 (I think) Williams on Friday night and #2 (again, I think but no lower than 3) Amherst at Williams Saturday afternoon.  The Friday night game meant everything to Trinity, players and fans alike, but Williams was really looking towards Amherst the next day.  It will always be like that, no matter how good Trinity gets.
So all we can do is just beat them both and let them have their own meaningless Biggest Little Game in America.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 21, 2005, 04:57:58 pm
former: I completely agree with you. Though Trinity doesn't even have it that bad compared to Wesleyan. The Cardinals make up one third of "The Little Three" but to be honest, no one even gives any consideration to their game against Wes Tech because the Cardinals are so bad.

At least Trinity and Williams have a rivarly because they're both good... Wesleyan pretends to have a rivalry with Williams and Amherst, when all it amounts to is two brothers bullying their little sister.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 21, 2005, 05:01:36 pm
Trin:  Exactly the same in hoops.  Although in 03-04 Wesleyan played Williams into overtime, and Amherst barely pulled it out against them in the regular season and playoffs.  If they are the littlest brother in the little 3, what does that make them???
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 21, 2005, 05:46:30 pm
really wish I had been able to see the documentary...if anyone I know taped it I would like to have a copy, will pay for it.  Anyway, I am really anxious about tomorrows game vs the bears.  Some of these posts got me thiking....and you never know...you never know....No I am just kidding....Prediction......100000-0  Trinity dominates highest scoring game in history.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: First6Ws on October 21, 2005, 06:08:24 pm
former:  I think that makes Wesleyan the Wee member of the Wee Three...but those trophies within the league are virtually meaningless.  I think of the mighty Bates Bobcats who won the 2003 BBC (or whatever the hell it is) with an impressive record of 3-5 overall.  Congratulations to the Tallest Man in the Land of the Midgets. 
Trin:  they should have also featured the second game of the streak when a blocked punt (and extra point) made the difference in a 13-12 win over the Jumbos on Homecoming or perhaps the last game of 2002 when that Bant safety did his best impression of "Havlicek steals it, Havlicek stole the ball!" en route to victory over the Cardinals.  Without those early Ws would the ball ever have gotten rolling?  Also if you have a copy of the documentary let me know.  I'll trade you for a Summer Slam 2005 shirt
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 21, 2005, 06:09:36 pm
Irrespective of the sport, Williams vs. Amherst is THE game for those 2 colleges. That state of affairs probably will not change.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 21, 2005, 09:33:25 pm
6Ws: Great point, those were both very exciting games, but despite their absence in the documentary it was still fun to watch. I am willing to sell both you and dirty a copy of the show for a modest price. Maybe I'll make a auction off copies to the highest bidder at Homecoming.

Frank: You're probably right, the Williams-Amherst game will always be the highlight of every Eph-Jeff season... But in my opinion they can have it because while they're playing for bragging rights Trinity will be playing for another ring.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: nescac1 on October 22, 2005, 07:12:41 am
Williams seems to be the biggest game on the schedule for about half the league in almost every sport -- certainly for Middlebury, Amherst, and Trinity, and arguable for Tufts and Wesleyan as well.  I once met someone from Bowdoin who said -- yeah, Williams, that is a big rival of ours, and I wasn't sure how to respond.  A combination of Williams' historical success and the publicity it has generated, the Little 3, and, in the case of Midd and Amherst at least, geography. 

I would say that for Williams, in every sport, Amherst will always be the biggest rivalry by far.  Middlebury is also a big rival because of the proximity of the schools and Midd being the only school in the conference that can rival Williams' overall athletic dominance in the league.  Trinity is a big game in basketball and football, but that is really it (the other sports Trinity is good at, hockey, baseball, and squash, aren't exactly big on the Williams campus).  Wesleyan is sort of a rival because it has to be, but no one from the Williams side gets very excited about competitions against Wesleyan.

I'm sure if Trinity continues playing like it does, they will (if they have not already) be considered the biggest game on everyone's schedule in football.  Remember, though, that Trinity's dominance is fairly recent.  From around 1995 through 2002, Williams and Amherst dominated the league, and the league title (in addition to bragging rights) often came down to the last game of the season.  But it seems, like the Yankees, that everyone hates success, and therefore hates Williams the most.  We like it that way. :).   Before 1995, Williams and Trinity were the two teams to beat.  But Williams had a much longer run of dominance than the current Trin squad, and memories of being pummeled die hard. 

We'll see what happens after this year -- both Williams and Amherst return pretty loaded squads next year, although both will still be big underdogs to Trinity.  I think the Amherst game may be close, but Trinity will be up for it and should emerge undefeated.  Bowdoin doesn't have a chance in hell, they are the worst 4-0 team in Nescac history, have had two pretty flukey wins.  I am happy for them as some good breaks were a long time coming, but they will likely finish at best 6-2 and probably 5-3. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 22, 2005, 07:26:37 am
nescac1: I'd pretty much have to agree with everything you wrote. And though Williams did have a longer stretch dominance than Trinity has accieved (thus far) even those great Eph teams didn't dominate in the same manner that the Bantams have over the past 26 games. 

And though I do agree that next year we could see Williams and Amherst close the gap a little, we have not seen the end of this current Trinity run of dominance.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on October 22, 2005, 11:18:44 am
IS everyoner still planning on going to the gamer, despite the weather?  Im debating whether or not it is worth it.

Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Lyco80 on October 22, 2005, 02:00:37 pm
ayone have a score for Bowdoin - Trinity?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on October 22, 2005, 02:03:18 pm
17-3 Trin, Bowdoin is putting upa fight, but turnovers are kiling them....gave one up on the trin 5 yard line after competing a 60 yard bomb
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 22, 2005, 02:52:30 pm
Bowdoin looks like a pretty good team so far (near the end of the 3rd).

I am impressed at their improvement and I don't think a good record at the end of the year will be a fluke at all judged on what I've seen.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on October 22, 2005, 02:53:27 pm
colby 34 hamilton 20
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Lyco80 on October 22, 2005, 03:15:44 pm
any updates on Trinity - Bowdoin? Go Polar Bears!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on October 22, 2005, 03:31:24 pm
FInal score: 23-3 Trin

A sloppy game overall, Trinity and Bowdoin combined for i would say at least 5 fumbles, most of which resulted in tuirnovers.  Trin just ran the ball, Bowdoins offense was rarly on the field as trinity slugged downfield on 3-5 yeard gains.  passing for both teams was poor, lots of dropped balls, although trini managed a couple of good plays.  Bowdoin had almost no offense the send half and by the 4th were just heaving up passes most of which were tipped, nearly intercepted, or way overthrown.

No suprises here.  Although Bowdoins defense is MUCH imporved, they still hav e a ways to go before they can stop the Bants.  and Trins defense totally dominated, except on one big pass play that ended up not costing them.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 23, 2005, 05:53:52 pm
4-1...the Jumbos let me down.  Should've known Williams wouldn't take another one.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 23, 2005, 09:45:23 pm
former: I hate to say I told you so, but Tufts always stumbles the second half of the season. I went 5-0 on the weekend to keep pace with dirty.

I was at the Trin-Bowdoin game and though the Polar Bears never threatened the Bantams, I do believe they have a legit shot at 7-1 (especially with Colby's pedestrian showing against Hamilton.

Middlebury finally got their act together, let's see if they can keep the momentum going and give the Bants a game.

Wesleyan, you're pathetic.

Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on October 23, 2005, 10:43:18 pm
colbys defense agains hamilton only allowed 7 points, the other 13 were on fluke plays due to weather conditions. sure, colby didnt win by 58, but their defense was as good as it had to be (held hamilton to 7 points, sacking hamilton 5 times and making them go 0 for 3 in the red zone) and qb justin smith was excellent, hence the nescac offensive player of the week award. watch out bates, tufts and bowdoin, colby is looking for a 7-1 finish...
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 24, 2005, 08:53:16 am
5-0 on the week...good job trin8-0...former, you could get one back.  This week could pose some tough picks.  Anyway, the Bantams continued dominance in the coop, no suprises here.  Colby? What happened to them?  Also, congrats to the panthers for getting in the win column...they have the bants at home this weekend and could put up a great fight...they would loooove to end the streak, and that field is always tricky to play on, not to mention the sloppy play of the bantams the last few games.  Trinity defense has allowed 9 points in 5 games.....ummmmm....thats pretty good, no matter what league you are playing in!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 24, 2005, 08:58:32 am
By the way...Michael Blair has 1/2 of a sack to tie, and just 1 sack to break the all-time sack record at Trinity College (current record 24).  He should be able to accomplish this milestone at Middlebury this weekend.  If I were middlebury I would double team him....maybe not pass the ball at all?  COME ON...LISTEN TO ME!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 24, 2005, 09:42:46 am
Dirty, records are meant to be broken and if someone does break it, I'm sure Blair is the right guy to do it.
Trin, you did tell me, I just couldn't go against family and the hope of Williams losing again.  Plus I've never been one to play it safe, I like going for the kill shot as soon as I can. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Ephs1991 on October 24, 2005, 01:18:09 pm
On Trin 8-0's question regarding who Williams' biggest rival is - from the players perspective (at least during 1987-1990) we always looked to Trinity as the biggest rivalry.  Amherst was a big rivalry but more for the students.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 24, 2005, 01:51:27 pm
On Trin 8-0's question regarding who Williams' biggest rival is - from the players perspective (at least during 1987-1990) we always looked to Trinity as the biggest rivalry. Amherst was a big rivalry but more for the students.

I must say that is a little suprising, but it is refreshing to know that (despite what Williams-Amherst administrators and the student body might try to promote as the rivalry) as far as the players are concerned the team that poses the biggest challenge is the game that means the most.

One of the best quotes from that documentary was from Jeff Devaney, Trinity's current D-coordinator and all NESCAC DB for the Bantams in the early '90s. He said something to the effect that those Trinity & Williams teams would have prefered to play all 8 games against each other and go 4-4 than to go 8-0 or 7-1 beating up on the poorer teams in the league.

dirty: Blair has been double and even triple teamed this year. Also, teams have been running away from him, and rolling-out away from him. It is remarkable that he has been able to still make the number of plays he has so far this year.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Ephs2004 on October 24, 2005, 02:05:58 pm
Being a recent player/grad, I can honestly say that Amherst was the biggest rival in my playing time.  It's probably a due to a combo of the history and the fact that both teams were competing for the top spot most of the time.  The trinity game was big during my final two seasons, mainly because we knew we were, again, competing for the top spot.  The history and the homecoming/alumni interest in the Amherst game is like nothing else though.
Regarding the streak, like someone said, they're made to be broken.  Bottom line is that Trinity won the game, Williams lost.  No excuses.  That being said, It would've been nicer to see the streak passed onto a team that embodies the NESCAC, ie Amherst or Midd.
I've periodically checked this site out for the last 4 years, starting when I was still playing.  Its cool to see that people have a genuine interest in the league.  So keep up the good work. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 24, 2005, 03:01:36 pm
During recent years the mood on the Williams practice field is that the Amherst game is THE game.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Ephs1991 on October 24, 2005, 03:47:11 pm
Ephs 2004,

I hate to publicly disagree with you being a fellow Eph, but stuff the comment about how the streak should have gone to a team who "embodies the NESCAC".  We used to hear the same kinds of crap during the late 80's/early 90's from the other teams in the league but just as often from the Williams students and administration who were jealous of our success and attention who were frankly too arrogant to admit that hard work and team spirit are worth something.

It seems Trinity's hard work, off season dedication and good coaching have paid off, just like Williams' did in years past.   Cut the crap about Trinity's academics.  If you want to beat them, work harder and stop whining, besides, there is nothing better than being in a program that pulls itself up with hard work and dedication and gets a few upsets along the way - much like Dave Caputi is doing at Bowdoin right now. Wouldn't you want to be the ones to beat Trinity while they are a powerhouse instead of complaining about how you can't compete with them?   
 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 24, 2005, 04:18:56 pm
Do you have to be a snob in order to "embody the NESCAC?"  Does that sentance even make sense?

Here are the top three definitions of "embody" that are listed on dictionary.com:

(1) To give a bodily form to; incarnate.
(2) To represent in bodily or material form: “As John Adams embodied the old style, Andrew Jackson embodied the new” (Richard Hofstadter).
(3) To make part of a system or whole; incorporate: laws that embody a people's values.

Trinity is part of the NESCAC genious.  It would be purely tautological to point out the obvious: since Trinity is PART OF THE NESCAC, it is therefore conceptually impossible for Trinity not to "embody" the NESCAC.

Why don't you just come out and say that it would be nice if a "better" school won the league you snob?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Ephs2004 on October 24, 2005, 04:44:30 pm
Sweet research, bro.  And yea, I'll say, I will totally say that it would have been nicer if a better school took the streak.  And I wasn't complaining.  I said, "...bottom line, Trinity won, williams lost, no excuses."  I think the Trinity kids have definitely worked hard and definitely deserve it.  Iwasn't taking anything from them or their coaches and the recruiting excuse is BS, i agree.  I was just saying that I think Trinity sucks as a school (academically, reputation, campus, locale, etc.) and it would've been cooler had the streak passed onto better school, more historic, more respected.  There, I'm a snob.  Do something.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 24, 2005, 04:57:49 pm
Sweet research, bro.  And yea, I'll say, I will totally say that it would have been nicer if a better school took the streak.  And I wasn't complaining.  I said, "...bottom line, Trinity won, williams lost, no excuses."  I think the Trinity kids have definitely worked hard and definitely deserve it.  Iwasn't taking anything from them or their coaches and the recruiting excuse is BS, i agree.  I was just saying that I think Trinity sucks as a school (academically, reputation, campus, locale, etc.) and it would've been cooler had the streak passed onto better school, more historic, more respected.  There, I'm a snob.  Do something.

Well its nice that you qualified your insults by saying that Trinity athletes work hard and deserve it, and that there are no excuses for losing. 

I'll serve you on a point-by-point basis:
(1) If you think TRINITY sucks academcially, you are going to have a horrendous time dealing with the vast majority of Americans who have graduated from college, because, as I think you know, Trinity is better than the vast majority of colleges in the country.  I only hope that you save your direct insults for anonymous message boards.  I cannot stress enough how glad I am that I didn't go to Williams based on what I know about the way they see the world.  Would I have that kind of attitude if I went there?
(2) As for the reputation of Trinity, all of the arguments made in point (1) are relevant.
(3) Campus: Trinity's campus is okay in my opinion.  I never really thought about it too much and I'm not sure why that matters.  It is a very small campus and that never bothered me... are you that desparate to disparage Trinity that you stoop to the level of making fun of their campus?!?!?!? and
(4) Call me biased because I've always lived in Metropolitan areas, but the locale of Williams is one the college's WORST traits.  My brother went there and I've visited a bunch of times because I had friends who played Williams football.  I always liked visiting, because I did appreciate open spaces and all, but they were pretty sick of it.  There are two bars, two crappy bars, that are accessible to Williams students.  And there is no fraternity life, so that is about the extent of what there is to do there (aside from "registered" keg parties where everyone is ID'ed). 

Perhaps the snobbiness comes from the fact that (1) you don't really enjoy your time at Williams so failures on the athletic field compound your frustration; and (2) the attitude you learned at Williams makes the very thought of losing to a school ranked below you something that keeps you up at night.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 24, 2005, 05:06:29 pm
I'm not suprised at all that someone who actually played for a championship team at Williams in early '90s has a more sensible view of what makes a championship NESCAC team. It's reassuring to know that those Williams players had to hear the same nonsense.

I couldn't agree with you more Ephs1991, Trinity has won the same way that every other successful team has won in any sport at any level... by combining talent with hard work and preparation.

The reason the Bantams will lose one of these days is because eventually a coach will sell enough recruits on the idea of "Why would you want to go to Trinity when you could beat Trinity?" When they can get those athletes and instill in them the mentality to work hard in and out of season a new NESCAC power will emerge. As someone much smarter than myself once said, "Winning is simple, but it isn't easy".

Bant551: You use some pretty big words for a dumb Trinity footall player. Are you sure you didn't go to Williams after all.  ;D

Ephs2004: To say that Trinity sucks as a school is quite an exageration. Do you really belive that Williamstown is a better location than Hartford? Tell me, where do you do your internships... Is it the metropolis' of Braytonville or Sweets Corner? I also think you'd be hard-pressed to find a student who prefered the campus life of Williams to Trinity. Finally, since when did a streak have to be "cool"? I always thought it should go to whoever wins the most games.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 24, 2005, 06:13:09 pm
I have really enjoyed reading the past couple posts, and have formulated a pretty good assessment of the issues.  Trin8-0 is pretty close in his understanding of how this entire posting board works.  Current and semi-current players from the rest of the NESCAC are upset and dare I say "jealous" of the sucess that Trinity has had in recent years.  They have continually tried to bash the academic and geographical placement of Trinity, in an attempt to make themselves feel better.  However, past players who have experienced similar sucess as Trinity, know that all the bashing is childish and ignorant.  Thank you for putting these posts in their proper light....I think we should call the Dirty Birds from the South (Atlanta Falcons) and challenge them to play the Dirty Birds of the North, to see who really runs the national "COOP".  Prediction....Bants 21- Falcons 10....Vick cant out run the D. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: saul on October 24, 2005, 07:48:58 pm
it's easy to be a snob when you're talking about trinity. it has the lowest academic standards of any other nescac school, so if anybody from another league school starts talking about trinity, well they're talking about an academic inferior. trinity has defined itself as such, not the other way around. trinity then componds this shame and disgrace by leveraging their low admissions standards to gain an insurmountable advantage on the football field. there's no jealousy involved here.  do some of the trin posters  think people around the league are upset about not going to the worst school in the league? it just never gets old throwing trinity under the bus, mostly because of all the sensitive, wounded trin posters on this site who can't deal with the fact that their school is the pits of nescac academically. but when trinity uses this situation as a competitive advantage on the football field they do indeed violate the tenents that define and embody nescac. one of the things that distinguishes nescac from the rest of d3 leagues is that its members all uphold the pursuit of academic excellence as their highest goal. hell, it's even written in the athletic league's mission statement. take a look:

 The New England Small College Athletic Conference (NESCAC), founded in 1971, consists of eleven highly selective liberal arts colleges. Its members are committed first and foremost to academic excellenceThe New England Small College Athletic Conference (NESCAC), founded in 1971, consists of eleven highly selective liberal arts colleges. Its members are committed first and foremost to academic excellence".....and sports are along for the ride.

 now somebody has to be last, but when an institution is consistently last--someone told me trinity was the weakest sistah from the git go in ' 71-- then they fail to uphold the values of the league. long ago union was asked to leave the league, ostensibly for hockey recruiting violations. but the real reasons behind this parting of the ways, according to some here, was the erosion of union's academic standards -- that, and union was pursuing d1 hockey. in short, as the euphemism goes "it was headed in a different direction" ( read: south ). now that sounds a lot like trinity: years in the cellar academically but lacking the direction, motivation or focus to improve its digraceful, shameful legacy.

nobody here is bashing bowdoin for their recent success on the gridiron, certainly not me. that's because it has its priorities straight: academics first, football somewhere behind that. it builds its program with good students, students who are students first. the football program improves and the school's ranking isn't in the nescac cellar. no problem, they're a legitimate nescac school with the right priorities. i not just saying that, they've define themselves as such. folks around nescac roundly hammer trinity because they see a school obsessed with football while their academic rep reeks. and, within nescac, trinity is virtually in a league by itself academically.  i use three hardfast criteria to make that case:

- median sat scores - strike 1  ( lower than any other nescac school)
- Top 100 Schools for selectivity- strike 2 ( lowest in nescac... and not even on the list )
- NESCAC comprehensive rankings- strike 3 ( includes student satisfaction, social life )

i cite these again and again because this stuff is all self-reported, has a history and paints the  institution's hapless profile in context and beyond-- on a national scale.

now let's talk about that disgrace, the turd in the punchbowl, the newark of nescac, that utter and complete embarrassment of a hovel in hartford: Trinity.
trinity, academically speaking, has fouled its own nest and now is forced to lay in its own filth. but the stench that rises from the nescac cellar is one that nauseates its fellow true and principled members. as with all spring cleaning trash, dross and filth must be removed. now is the time for action, now is the time for corrective measures and my own modest proposal: trinity must clean up its act or be forced to leave nescac. trinity taints all other nescac members by association alone because by nescac standards, trinity is consistently last. oh, the shame it brings to us all! now if a student is at the bottom his class he is told to improve or withdraw; if a football player can't keep up, he's cut from the team. nescac should do no less. i say give trinity a probation period ( ~ 3yrs ) to improve it's act or send it packing. it's in trinity's best interests and it rests in ours as well. my dogs, i say it's time trinity clean itself up or be shown the door... it's really beginning to smell.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 24, 2005, 08:18:00 pm
Saul, good to see you posting again after you were exposed as being a fraud who used numerous different names to post on the same topics.

Finally we hear about some statistics.  Unfortunately, we already knew that Trinity was the lowest-ranked NESCAC school.  And that certainly isn't anything to be ashamed of, unless, that is, you are such a snob that you look down at every single college and university in the country that is not as elite as Williams and Amherst.

Now, I wasn't asking you for obvious statistics that everyone already knew, and essentially stipulated on this message board (i.e., Trinity is still ranked highly nation-wide, but is the lowest-ranked school in the NESCAC - the necessary inference being that they have the lowest SAT average for incoming freshmen in the league).  So, you see, you have provided nothing.

What WOULD be relevant would be some statistic that is indicative of recruiting practices and academic standards being lowered at Trinity in recent years.  Its a shame that I must keep reiterating this to such a high-brow snob as yourself: bald, conclusory allegations, unsupported by REVELANT statistics or facts, are simply not enough to win an argument in the real world.

So, aside from pointing out the obvious (that the lowest-ranked school in the NESCAC has the lowest academic standards), you have once again provided nothing.  And your word is completely useless, as you have proven to be a snake and have posted under numerous names.  Even though some of us went to Trinity, we can recognize a BS attempt to use statistics in order to make a frivolous attempt at supporting a failed argument - your original argument being that improprieties have taken place at Trinity - and that said improprieties are the reason for Trinity's recent success.

Didn't you ever learn how to make a rational argument at your elite liberal arts college?  Or do they teach you to try and create false support for your arguments out of thin air by creating numerous message-board names, and to use irrelevant statistics (that only a moron would think supported your original argument about standards having changed at Trinity) in an attempt to support failed arguments?  Perhaps you have a future in politics? 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Knightstalker on October 24, 2005, 08:26:26 pm
kULD you all use lidle wurds so's us egknorent peeple that dint go to amursts or wilyums can unnerstan wat youse is yakking on abouts.  Weins lowlie peeples ain;t so kwik on unnerstanin inglesh.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Knightstalker on October 24, 2005, 08:29:58 pm
Saul, why don't you come on down to Newark or Jersey City.  I know some guys that didn't even finish ninth grade that you obviously think you are better than who will convince you to give them all your money, your car and let them take your momma and sister out for a little fun.  You really need to get a new writer,  your act is getting very old and tired.  How about giving people some hard facts rather than tired rumours and innuendo.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Ephs on October 24, 2005, 08:31:44 pm
On Trin 8-0's question regarding who Williams' biggest rival is - from the players perspective (at least during 1987-1990) we always looked to Trinity as the biggest rivalry.  Amherst was a big rivalry but more for the students.

'91: The problem was Amherst stunk in the late 80's/early 90's. I mean, they weren't even competitive. I'm sure you'd agree that had a negative impact on the rivalry. Meanwhile, Trinity was as good as Williams - a powerhouse. It made for some great games (a few of which i saw as a kid). When Amherst made a comeback in the mid-90's, so did the rivalry and its been strong ever since, while Trinity declined a little. But it still carried over to the teams I was on. We never took Trinity lightly, and they always played tough. Rilvary-wise, i'd say they were second to Amherst for us.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 24, 2005, 08:37:48 pm
I was always under the impression that Amherst and Williams were bigger rivals as well.

Hey, I was thinking about what Saul said and I think he is right.  How do you guys think Jay Fiedler (Dartmouth) tolerates playing with people who went to State Universities, and thereby have less value as human beings?

Saul, how do you tolerate the fact that, in the real world and on equal footing, there are thousands of Trinity alums that are going to achieve more success in their lives than you will, both financially and otherwise?  Does that eat at you inside?  How do you sleep at night knowing that not only are there Trinity graduates who will be more successful than you, but people who went to community colleges and state universities will achieve more than you will in this world?

Do you realize how you sound?  And this is coming from a guy with a Bob Marley avatar!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 24, 2005, 08:56:52 pm
Ephs: That sounds about right to me... A rivalry is always stronger when the games mean something. That's probably the reason why the Trin-Wes rivalry hasn't been big in a very long time and why the Wlms-Amst rivalry has fluctuated.

Saul or BigToe or BobbyJ: You're truly pathetic. I'm not the least bit suprised that you dodged the fact that you were exposed as a morally questionable degenerate who created multiple fake identities in an attempt to repeat the same unsubstantiated claims. It appears to me, and apparently the vast majority of those who have read your posts, that the only person or person(s) who should be embarrassed is you. You're actions and elitist point of view lead me to believe that you are a very sheltered person. I sincerely hope you learn something at Amherst besides how to tell others that you're better than they are, otherwise it will be YOU and not Trinity graduates who will bring down the reputation of the NESCAC and it's member schools.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Ephs on October 24, 2005, 09:08:03 pm
Ephs: That sounds about right to me... A rivalry is always stronger when the games mean something. That's probably the reason why the Trin-Wes rivalry hasn't been big in a very long time and why the Wlms-Amst rivalry has fluctuated.

Saul or BigToe or BobbyJ: You're truly pathetic. I'm not the least bit suprised that you dodged the fact that you were exposed as a morally questionable degenerate who created multiple fake identities in an attempt to repeat the same unsubstantiated claims. It appears to me, and apparently the vast majority of those who have read your posts, that the only person or person(s) who should be embarrassed is you. You're actions and elitist point of view lead me to believe that you are a very sheltered person. I sincerely hope you learn something at Amherst besides how to tell others that you're better than they are, otherwise it will be YOU and not Trinity graduates who will bring down the reputation of the NESCAC and it's member schools.

the interesting thing about williams/trinity is that it's early and can dictate the rest of the season for both teams - its a physically and emotionally exhausting game. and the losing team has an uphill battle. that's what impresses me most about Williams this year (and trinity in 2002). a scrimmage at amherst, and two away games vs. colby and trinty...that's a killer, but they've hung tough and won 3 in a row. Hopefully they can keep it rolling...
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bantman on October 24, 2005, 09:21:27 pm
The notion that Trinity is the only team in the NESCAC that lowers its standards for athletes and especially football players is ridiculous.  I hope we are all smart enough to realize that.  When I played at Trinity there were tons of guys on the team that were aided in admissions because they were football players.  The problem was that these guys weren't good enough and didn't work hard enough to bring Trinity to the top of the league.  I also played for 3 head coaches in 4 years and that always makes things difficult.  There was no discipline on the team Sunday through Thursday and it showed on Saturday.  Priore brought a confidence and an attitude that Trinity was going to be the best team in the league and they were going to do it his way.  What Priore lacked in tact and personality, he more than made up for in confidence, determination, and hard work.  He went out and brought in players that had the same tenacity that he did, that came from winning programs and that expected to play well and win.  I didn't hear Williams complaining about transfer rules when Scott Farley came to Williams from Villanova.  I can't imagine how Williams would accept a transfer from an inferior school...oh wait, his dad was the coach!!!  He did everything for those Williams teams (DB, WR, KR, PK, P).  Nor did I hear anyone complaining at Amherst about admissions standards when they allowed the likes of Daoust, McGee, Landolphi, and Lalli (all from the same high school and not dumb kids, but also not elite students with academics first mentalities) into their school to create arguably the most dominant NESCAC defense in history until the current bantams started their run.  What NESCAC record setting running back Brian Sanchez at Middlebury?  Check up on him and figure out why he lost a track scholarship as a high school senior.  Every program in the country uses the advantages they can to improve their program and they'd be stupid not to.  Can Trinity recruit kids that Williams or Bowdoin cannot?  Yes, they can, but what about the kids that the Ivies don't want that only consider Williams and Amherst as secondary options?  That's a disticnt advantage for those schools.  Ever since the Bob Davie era, Notre Dame has been claiming its at a competitive disadvantage because of their admission standards.  Now that they have a new coach, new attitude, but same guys that weren't good enough the last few years, you don't hear the complaints anymore about not having any players  

Sorry about the really long first post.  I've been reading this stuff for the past few weeks and finally decided to chime in.  I enjoy the discussion, but the petty personal jabs get a little old.      
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: nescac1 on October 24, 2005, 11:01:38 pm
Yeah, let's return to football.  I don't know of any legitimate Williams student or alums who views Trinity in the way that the imposter (or if it is a real Williams alum, they are hardly representative) stated.  But don't, in response to one idiot poster, make stupid statements generalizing about Williams or Williamstown.  If I were to judge Trinity by the ten drunken idiots who make asses of themselves at certain basketball games or who malign Williams women as unattractive, it wouldn't reflect well on the general Trinity student body either.  There is a reason that Williams has the highest graduation rates and alumni giving rates in the country, and it's not because students there are miserable and have no social life or the town sucks.   So why can't we all get along and enjoy the fact that we are all part of the best joint academic / athletic league in the country, and even the students who get admissions breaks would be the top academic students in the general population at the vast majority of college campuses. 

So, as I was saying, back to football.  It's too bad Williams didn't put it all together until recently because I think the way the offense is flowing now, they would beat Colby and give Trinity a much better game.  I usually hate qb rotating, but it does in this case make game-planning much tougher on opponents, as Lucey excels as running and is very accurate with short passes, while Gleeson has a big arm and throw bombs down-field, and it is hard to adjust schemes and personnel on the fly.  Williams still needs to find one RB to emerge, I think Weeks has the best shot of being a feature back but they have to call the right kind of plays to take advantage of his skills. 

Williams needs to get out of the gate a little faster as they have struggled early the last few years for some reason ... hopefully next year they can figure it out.  It seems like Amherst is also peaking right now and their running offense is just awesome, given the similarity of their style to Trinity's and given that Amherst is home, I think that game will go down to the wire.  Trinity's defense is almost impenetrable, but without Finkleday they don't seem to have the same offensive explosiveness as the last two years and could lose in a low-scoring field position type of game, which Amherst excels at. 

This week's games are awful, all should be blow-outs. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 24, 2005, 11:04:32 pm
Nescac1...got a bone to pick real quick, but I agree with you...we can pick it back up after I get this off my chest.

Saul, I'm backing up Knightstalker here, I was just in Newark today....you wouldn't dare show up in a gym there and lecture those guys about how they are the scum of the earth would you???  And if Trinity ranks last in the comprehensive ratings, I really doubt that social life is included.  It's pretty funny to me when I would play against a kid from another NESCAC school and then see him out at a party at guess where, TRINITY....this happened one more than one occasion with players from more than one school.  I even had some Amherst alums (classes of 01 & 02) ask me about what they thought were myths about Trinity's campus life which turned out to be a regular Saturday night for the disgusting turd of a campus.  Yeah it's a little small, yeah it's not in the best neighborhood....but it's real life!  So we can't leave our doors open or unlocked like the guys at Williams do, guess what....we don't live in a bubble like you academic nobles at Amherst and Williams.  You can ask a few of the hoops players at your school what they thought about Trinity when they came down.  As the ephs1991 said, stop whining and work your way back up to the top.  Not everything gets handed to you on a silver platter, I'm sorry to break the news to you.  I'm sure your parents worked hard to make it possible for you to be such an @$$.  I'm proud to be a Trinity alum, b/c it has prepared me for the real world.  I can deal with people from Hartford and from Newark and I can deal with POS's like you who think they are god's gift to the world.  So what if you get the job you want when you graduate, I hope you get robbed when your walking home from the bar one night and mouth off to the wrong guy....see if he cares that you graduated from the 'Herst.
Bantman, couldn't agree with you more on the Notre Dame comparison.  from now on, I feel we fellow Bants should just ignore the kid from Amherst whether it be Saul or whatever alias he chooses.  Always nice to see that Trinity isn't the only one who lets athletes who may not be up to the academic standard.  Maybe some people will realize it happens at every school.  I hope the Bants beat everyone for the rest of my life.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Knightstalker on October 24, 2005, 11:14:32 pm
Some of those guys on the street corners in places like Hartford, Jersey City, Newark etc are just as smart or smarter than any of us could ever think of being.  I know a couple of 14 year old kids I would let balance my books anytime, they could probably do it in their heads.  Saul you have one really big lesson to learn in life.  There is always going to be someone that is smarter, stronger, faster, better looking, etc than you, remember this and it will humble you and is a much better way to be humbled than by getting your ass beat, or robbed or embarassed or hustled etc.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on October 25, 2005, 03:28:44 am
I am rather curious about what saul and his imaginary friends have invested in writing loooong drawn out tyrades against trinity.

What is in it for you saul?  are you even an ex football player?  i assume not.

Seriously though, whats the deal?  And whats up with not defending your point logically?  You just spew the same garbage every week or two in such a ridiculous manner that i assumed you were just trying to get a good rise out of everyone (congrats, it seems you have succeeded) until i realized it must have taken you about an hour to put together your last smear piece. 

so whats at stake?  dare you respond?  or are you just going to say, "sure i can respond....trinity is just pissed because it is last in league, its students and professors are total morons and hartfrod is a dump etc....etc.....etc...........and....... .......etc

also, are you going to be at the amherst vs. trinity game?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: ktroutvon on October 25, 2005, 08:53:09 am
I know they don't have football, but Connecticut College's (NESCAC in other sports) campus isn't great and New London is no better than Hartford.  I don't think the academic standards are any better ther either.  The academic argument doesn't make sense.  I didn't go to a nescac or ivy (was accepted to a couple), but I have worked for a bulge bracket investment bank and had 4th yr. associates from white shoe law firms doing what I demanded after midnight.  I also received an equal or bigger bonus.  The point being that while Williams or Amherst may land you a slightly better gig out of college, you still have to prove yourself in the real world.  By the time you are on your second or third job no one cares (Harvard being the one possbile exception for various reasons not worth getting into). 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 25, 2005, 09:58:07 am
I know they don't have football, but Connecticut College's (NESCAC in other sports) campus isn't great and New London is no better than Hartford.  I don't think the academic standards are any better ther either.   . . 

I think that Conn College actually rates below Trinity in the objective criteria (per-student endowment, USNWR rating, etc.). It's not a part of this discussion because there is no evidence that it has made any effort to become an athletic powerhouse by admitting out-of-band athletes.  In fact, I am hard pressed to think of any sport that Conn College is actually good at.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 25, 2005, 10:05:59 am
Speedy, in the late 90's Conn's men's basketball team was one of the best in the country.  They had a kid Kareem Tatum who was the best player in the conference.  I'm not sure where he was from, but I believe it was similar to Hartford or Newark...I'm sure Saul would like to have Conn's season forfeited for having such a player on that team.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 25, 2005, 10:32:56 am
bantman: You made some excellent points, especially regarding Scott Farley.

nescac1: Can't argue with you either, especially about this weeks games. I don't think any of them will be closer than 2 TDs with the exception of maybe Amherst @ Tufts (and that's only if the Jumbos show up).

There are really only 3 important games left in the season. Trinity at Amherst, Colby at Bowdoin and Amherst at Williams. All could be close and will more than likely decide 1st through 5th in the NESCAC.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 25, 2005, 02:39:04 pm
If you want to argue lowered academic standards for sports teams..look into the lacrosse program at Conn College in the 2000-2001 seasons.  They had some transfers who could shoot the lights out, but apparently had very few lights on upstairs...
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 25, 2005, 02:40:08 pm
READ IF YOU HAVE NOT ALREADY:

History runs deep for Trinity and Williams


This feature is compiled by D3football.com staff.
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Oct. 05 History runs deep for Trinity and Williams
Originally posted Oct. 5, 2005

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This piece was written prior to the Trinity (Conn.)/Williams game, won by Trinity 34-6. It originally appeared in the Oct. 1, 2005, edition of the Hartford Courant.

By MIKE ANTHONY, Courant Staff Writer

Trinity quarterback James Lane, seeing that running back Julian Craig had been stopped 5 yards short of the goal line, screamed for a timeout.

Still, the clock expired on what appeared to be Williams' 24th consecutive victory and chaos ensued at Weston Field in Williamstown, Mass. Hundreds, maybe thousands, of fans dressed in purple poured onto the field.

But the referee had spotted Lane's desperate call and ruled there was 1 second left. He cleared the field and gave Trinity a final play from the 5. Trailing 27-24, Trinity never considered a field goal. With fans now lining the sidelines, Lane rolled out and threw a touchdown pass to John Mullaney for a 30-27 victory.

"So many emotions," Lane said Friday. "Unbelievable."

That was 1991, the height of Williams' NESCAC dominance. Trinity had ended the streak, a New England Division III record. A little more than a decade later, the Bantams would start their own. And today at Jessee/Miller Field in Hartford, everything comes to a head in the 64th meeting between Trinity and Williams. Trinity, which defeated Bates in last week's opener, has won 23 in a row to tie Williams' record set in 1988-91.

The Bantams' rise to NESCAC prominence has come under sixth-year coach Chuck Priore, a steely man with little use for historical perspective, streaks and records. Still, he understands why so many with ties to both programs this week are reliving the final moments of the 1991 game. He understands why so many are pausing to consider one of the great New England rivalries and some of the great games that formed it. He understands this is a game fueled by memories and he understands what a unique twist this game presents.

"It's certainly crazy that it's happened this way - with the same number [of victories], the same team," Priore said. "I'm not sure you could write the script any better. This happened 14, 15 years ago, exactly the opposite way."

The importance of today's game depends on perspective. For alumni from both schools, many of whom will drive hundreds of miles to attend, the history is not to be overlooked. It also is a window to their youth. Conversely, the current players and students were in grade school in 1991 and might not grasp what this means to many.

In Williamstown, the quaint town of about 7,000, the Williams football team is the team, and this, right now, is the event. While Trinity has displaced Williams as the NESCAC pacesetter, this is Williams' chance to preserve their share of the record. The Ephs lost their season opener to Colby, 35-9. NESCAC teams play eight games and do not have playoffs. Williams also is trying to exact revenge for losses to Trinity the last two years.

A proud tradition accompanies any athlete at Williams, which for the last three years has been ranked the top liberal arts college by U.S. News & World Report and has won the NCAA directors cup as the nation's top college athletic program the last seven years. Williams, playing its 120th football season, is the first school to receive such recognition in the same year. But the pride is as much about the small town feel. When coach Mike Whalen walks up Spring Street, he is greeted by many. The Williams College Sideline Quarterback Club and many of its 80 members convene every Wednesday at The Log, a cozy downtown building. If the Ephs win their homecoming game, Spring Street traffic is halted so players can walk the quarter-mile or so to St. Pierre's barber shop, where they celebrate with cold drinks and shaved heads.

Dick Farley, who coached 17 years and retired before last season, molded the program that Whalen, his assistant for eight years, inherited. And while Whalen has tried to sustain a level of excellence, Priore's program has become the one many Division III schools now look up to.

"I don't envy his situation," Priore said of Whalen, his good friend. "Dick Farley was tremendously successful. Now you walk in and everybody thinks it's just going to continue. But what happens in the past and what happens tomorrow is different. Other teams have gotten better. Other programs are doing things as well as Williams, and not just Trinity. Recruiting is more competitive."

Trinity's athletic prowess never has been stronger and the Bantams are experiencing a football rebirth. But the landscape is different. While Priore said the emergence of UConn has helped drum up interest in his team, Trinity isn't the focal point of a town as Williams is. Still, the team is chugging along as perhaps the most talented in NESCAC history.

"Certainly when I got here, their program was the model we tried to emulate," Priore said. "Trinity-Williams has always been very close, but certainly they were visualized as the best team. We wanted to be that. We wanted to be able to compete with them on a week-to-week basis and dominate the league like they have done. It's one thing beating them. It's another to dominate everybody. We might have beaten them, but they were dominating everybody."

With one more victory, Trinity will tie Allegheny (Pa.), which won 24 in a row in 1990-91. Mount Union (Ohio) holds the Division III record with 55 victories in a row in 2000-03.

"Chuck obviously is a very bright coach," Whalen said. "It's very easy to say, `Yeah, I have a system.' It's another to make it work. He's got an amazing work ethic. Football is his life. I know that he's been involved at a higher level [assistant at Penn]. In my opinion, people have made a big mistake not hiring him. People look at him and say he's a Division III coach. The guy is not. The guy is a great football coach. I know he could win in the Ivy League. I know he could win in the Patriot League. I know he could win at an even higher level."

In Hartford, some Trinity students have been slow to understand the significance of the Bantams' run.

"They don't know exactly what's going on," defensive lineman Mike Blair said. "They just know we win."

Blair said it's just another game, although he knows it's not to many people. Williams wide receiver Jonathan Drenckhahn said the same. Williams, Drenckhahn said, is more concerned with payback for losses to Trinity each of the last two seasons than it is with the streak - no matter how much the Ephs have been reminded of it lately.

Alumni are eating it up. Trinity is expecting more than 8,000 fans. Lane will be there. So will Dan Dwyer of Glastonbury, the Williams quarterback who threw for 286 yards and three touchdowns in that 1991 game.

It was difficult to top the two previous games. In 1989 and 1990, Williams overcame late deficits, converting fourth-down plays in the final two minutes of each.

"So then in 1991, it was actually a pretty uneventful game until the last two minutes," said Trinity assistant coach Jeff Devanney, a safety on the 1991 team. "Then it got crazy."

With 2:47 left, Dwyer scored from 2 yards to give Williams a 20-17 lead. With 51 seconds left, Lane threw a 39-yard touchdown pass to Mike Wallace. Assuming it was the winning score, Trinity went overboard with its celebration and was assessed a penalty. The Bantams kicked off from their 20 and Williams returned it past midfield. On the next play, Dwyer threw a 46-yard touchdown pass to Andre Burrell to give Williams back the lead with 40 seconds left. But then Lane hit Craig, called timeout with a second left and found Mullaney in the end zone.

"That referee had guts," Dwyer said.

Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Ephs on October 25, 2005, 05:30:37 pm
dirty: the '91 game has become famous in some circles. i know williams alums who say it was the best game they've ever seen and/or been a part of, including williams/amherst '97.

interestingly enough, williams' 23 game streak was flanked by losses to trinity. maybe williams can take 'em next year...
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on October 25, 2005, 05:48:17 pm
when the streak ends after 879 consecutive victories...........honestly i hope it is to williams
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 25, 2005, 06:15:11 pm
With the Trinity win streak now at 27, the Bants are just about halfway to Mount Union's all-time, all-division winning streak record of 55 games. With only 8 games a year Trinity would have to not only win the remaining 3 games this year, but also put together 3 more undefeated seasons then win their season opener against Bates in 2009 to tie the record. IF all of that happnes. Trinity would then play guess who to break the all time college football win streak record...? You guessed it, WILLIAMS!

Obviously that is a long, long way off, and no one is suggesting it would be easy, but you can't help but be amazed at how these teams always seem to meet in games regarding win streaks.

Do you guys think Trinity could post 6 undefeated seasons in a row, (throw in the 7-1 2002 season and a pair of wins to start the 2009 season) to break the all time football win streak?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: nescacdad on October 25, 2005, 06:56:45 pm
The 37-0 Amherst win over Wesleyan last week could have easily been 58-0.  Wesleyan's largest play from scrimmage was one 20 yard pass play early in the game where the ball bounced off the hands of the cornerback Salerno and should have been intercepted, then ricocheted to the Wesleyan receiver.  The ball would have hit Salerno in the face or numbers if it didnt bounce off his hands.  Salerno and the other D backs smothered the Wes receivers almost all game and the defense didnt even give up  100 yards.  The line and backers smothered the run.  The refs did every thing they could to try not to have Wesleyan totally embarassed as well.  The Amherst second string D got three series and the third string got two series.

     Amherst has lost one game this year so far, to Bowdoin, a game where they outgained Bowdoin 400 to 139 and had the ball over 37 minutes.  They lost because they fumbled the ball 6 times, lost four of them and threw three interceptions,one returned for a TD.  Thats 7 turnovers.  Right now, the Amherst offense is playing well, and their defense is powerful.  The front three are quick, strong and baiscally healthy going into Tufts.  I'm going to watch the Tufts game closely.  Tufts has big lines and a decent defense.  Tufts beat Amherst last year so the Jeffs will not be taking this game lightly by any means.   If Amherst can score points vs. the Jumbos, then  the game against Trinity could be a good one.  Amherst is the one team that can possibly beat Trinity this year, if they click on offense, avoid the fumbles and come out of the Tufts game healthy.  If the Amherst pounds on the Jumbos and comes out of it healthy, then I would suggest that we all head up to Amherst next week for a potentially great game.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on October 25, 2005, 07:11:40 pm
honestly, id say chances are slim, i put them around 30%.  but that isnt to bad.  it really depends on the coaching situation i think.  that is really where the difference is with trinity i think.  sure the players are better bvut the coaching staff are the ones that convince excellent players from all over the nation to come to trin.  that said, i suspect that the person who takes over a priore will be no slouch.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on October 25, 2005, 07:15:57 pm
last post was fro trin
nescacdad:  i totally agree that amherst is the only one with a shot.  Trin is gunna be reved up to fight and as long as they dont throw picks, which they VERY rarely do, then i think they should win.  but its gunna be a good one and im already nervous about it.  but lets get through midd first
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: 2sportdevil on October 26, 2005, 08:26:21 am
Trin8, last week Mt. Union lost its first game in 110 regular season games as stated in midwestern newspapers. Does the 55 game streak of Mt Union's to which you refer include playoff games. If so, isn't it apples to oranges to compare Trinity's streak to Mt. Union's when Mt. Union enters the playoff arena?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 26, 2005, 08:46:39 am
I
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 26, 2005, 08:49:27 am
I dont know what happened there...Anyway, I totally agree with sportdevil:  you can not compare the win streaks because Mount Union had 110 REGULAR SEASON WINS!  Imagine how long that would take with the 8 game schedule!  I love my school and the streak, but the 55 game win streak by Mount Union will always be more impressive than a NESCAC streak...unless they won 876 in a row like Hufsfarts suggested.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 26, 2005, 09:25:02 am
Yes, Mount Union's streak is more impressive.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 26, 2005, 09:52:16 am
Yes, Mt. Union's 55 game streak included playoffs making it much more impressive.  If Trinity does get to 110...highly unlikely....then those two streaks can be compared, but it is very difficult to put Trinity's streak up against Mt. Union's 55er.  Thats flat out amazing.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 26, 2005, 10:51:50 am
Easy fellas, I never said that IF Trinity broke the consecutive win streak that it would be more impressive than Mt. Union's. It's obviously more difficult to maintain a winning streak when you're playing the best teams in the country as opposed to the same 8 or 9 teams every year. I was just curious if anyone had any thought about if it could be done by Trinity, not in a comparative analysis about which streak would be more impressive.

nescacdad: I agree Amherst is a very good team and does have a legit shot to knock off the Bantams, but don't get too excited about dominating Wesleyan. I coach a youth football team that could easily shut-out the Cards and probably put up at least 14 points on that pitiful defense. If the Bants get through Middlebury and Amherst I hope Priore will let the starters leave the Wes game at halftime so they can enjoy the Homecoming tailgate, because that game will be over with about 45 minutes left to play.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 27, 2005, 09:10:59 am
PICKS FOR THE WEEK:

WES @ BOW:  3-24

TRIN @ MIDD: 28-10

BATES @ COLBY: 10-27

HERST @ TUFTS: 31-10

HAM @ WILL: 7-35
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 27, 2005, 10:43:51 am
Wow, this is a boring week in the NESCAC. The only game with the potential to even be close is Amherst at Tufts. And the only reason the Jumbos might hang around with the Jeffs is that the game is in Medford and Tufts has a good defense.

Bowdoin 24
Wesleyan 10

The Polar Bears get back on the winning track against a very poor Wesleyan team. I don't think even Bill Belichik could turn the Cards around this year.

Trinity 27
Middlebury 7

A good tune up for the Bants before the Nov. 6th showdown at Amherst.

Colby 21
Bates 7

The Mules, who still have a shot to tie for the NESCAC crown, will be too much for the Bobcats, especially at home. 

Amherst 10
Tufts 0

A defensive battle goes to the Jeffs as long as they don't look past a scrappy Tufts team who plays well at home.

Williams 28
Hamilton 7

The Ephs continues to roll after a brutal start to their season. Same old Continentals.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 27, 2005, 11:51:31 am
Looks like I won't be making up that game behind this week....I'm gonna have to agree with you guys on these games.

Trinity 35....Middlebury 7.....Bants get their O going again
Bowdoin 21....Wesleyan 7.....Wes Tech is bad, I mean real bad
Colby28....Bates 10....Boring game
Williams 21....Hamilton 3.....Another snoozer
Amherst 14....Tufts 10....the only good game of the week, Amherst pulls through.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: First6Ws on October 27, 2005, 07:01:17 pm
The Bants have lost some some heartbreakers at Middlebury...1999:  14-10, ran out of time going in to win in the Middlebury red zone and 2001: 14-7, Stalled 5 times inside the 10 and scored only seven points despite running 120 plays.  The Bants may start slow this weekend but they finish strong, 28-3.  Jumbos pull of the upset, 13-7
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 28, 2005, 03:33:51 pm
What do you think Mariner... can Tufts pull the upset?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on October 28, 2005, 06:15:50 pm
Arsenault being out hurts alot but Walsh points towards this game each year as much as any on the schedule.  Could be a sloppy field once again based on the weather report.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on October 29, 2005, 01:40:51 pm
Looks like trini is in trouble.  0-0 at half vs. midd.  w/ 2 picks in the closing minutes of the half.

time to get nervous?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 29, 2005, 03:06:18 pm
A couple of final scores:

Trinity 14 Middlebury 0

Bowdoin 35 Wesleyan 10
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on October 29, 2005, 05:16:33 pm
colby 24 bates 17. tough game for both teams, mules came out firing but soon deflated and bates was fired up. due to the huge talent disparit between the two, colby still managed to win.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: First6Ws on October 29, 2005, 07:54:11 pm
Panthers prove tough again in Vermont's late October, but the swarming Trinity D is too much.  4 shutouts in 6 games, 9 points in 6 games!  That is absolutely ridiculous.  Amherst has been beating up on people but they will have to top the scoring output of all Trinity opponents to date combined and/or pitch a near shutout to win.  I just don't see either one of those scenarios happening.  Maybe too early for the prediction but i'm going with 14-6 Trinity.  How bout them BANTS!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 29, 2005, 08:18:45 pm
Panthers prove tough again in Vermont's late October, but the swarming Trinity D is too much.  4 shutouts in 6 games, 9 points in 6 games!  That is absolutely ridiculous.  Amherst has been beating up on people but they will have to top the scoring output of all Trinity opponents to date combined and/or pitch a near shutout to win.  I just don't see either one of those scenarios happening.  Maybe too early for the prediction but i'm going with 14-6 Trinity.  How bout them BANTS!

Bantams have seemed eminently gettable the past 3 weeks - nothing like the powerhouse that they seemed to be in the first 3 weeks of the season. My money is on the Jeffs, who seem to be clicking at just the right time.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on October 30, 2005, 11:53:47 am
speedy, i agree the bants have not been playing up to their potential the past few weeks and the trip to amherst is going to be a tough one.  the boggest problem for them is going to be putting up poiunts on arguably the best bant defense in years, and that is saying quite a bit. and trinity will score, they hjave too many weapons not too.

but

its going to be a good one and if amherst gets a couple of big plays and turnovers they could definitely end the streak.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 30, 2005, 12:45:07 pm
5-0 with my picks this week (they were all no brainers though). I think the Trinity-Amherst game will be a classic, and I'm definately heading up to the game! The Jeffs have a legit shot at beating Trinity. They are playing excellent football right now and the Bants have looked complacent the last few weeks.

HOWEVER, I belive Trinity's relatively close games are a product of conservative play calling and a team that has been unmotivated. Trinity will be amped for this game and I expect Priore to pull out all the stops in order to win this game. I think we'll see a very tight low scoring game, but at the end of the day the team with more talent will prevail and Trinity will clinch it's 3rd consecutive perfect season (Wesleyan should just forfeit).
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 30, 2005, 01:43:17 pm
Roony: If it keeps raining, that game certainly could be a bog problem.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 30, 2005, 02:19:13 pm
Maybe its worse for Amherst that Trinity has been playing like crap?

Trinity certainly has the talent to have put up a ton of points in the last few games, but I think that would be counterproductive.  Now, they can go through a tough week of practice with their coach telling how overrated they are.   I think that works in their favor.  Plus, it made it ALOT more interesting to watch and listen to the past 2 games (the fact that they were close, that is).
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 30, 2005, 02:52:11 pm
bant551: Of course it is. For obvious reasons the Amherst coaches would love to have had Trinity rolling its opposition by huge margins (and to have had Amherst merely squeaking by).
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 30, 2005, 02:52:54 pm
What about the Trinity QB situation for the Amherst game?? Looking at the boxscore for the Trinity-Middlebury game, it looks as though Schweitzer was pulled at the end of the first half after  throwing two interceptions and replaced by Pitcher, who was more effective in moving the offense. Is Pitcher likely to get the call for the Amherst game or will the helm be returned to Schweitzer??
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 30, 2005, 02:55:58 pm
bant551: Of course it is. For obvious reasons the Amherst coaches would love to have had Trinity rolling its opposition by huge margins (and to have had Amherst merely squeaking by).

Frank, I think if Trinity was rolling its opposition and Amherst was just squeaking by this game would be trinity rolling by ahmerst........maybe not gonna happen though
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 30, 2005, 05:27:25 pm
jonny: And that's the exactly way the Amherst coaches would like the forecasting to go in all person's minds except for Amherst players' and coaches'.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 30, 2005, 05:30:45 pm
speedy: Schweitzer, Pitcher, Joe Spitzfix - what's the difference? Trinity will rise or fall on its defense and ground game.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 30, 2005, 06:23:05 pm
speedy: Schweitzer, Pitcher, Joe Spitzfix - what's the difference? Trinity will rise or fall on its defense and ground game.

Apparently it did make a difference in the Middlebury game, resulting in the decision to remove Schweitzer in the second half. Trinity placed zero points on the board while Schweitzer managed the offense, suggesting that there are limits to Trinity's ground game.  A similar performance will not work against Amherst, which is a much better team than Middlebury.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 30, 2005, 06:48:44 pm
Though, Schweitzer is a very good quarterback, I alwyas thought Pitcher got a raw-deal. All he has done is quarterback the Bantams to 2 undefeated seasons only to get benched his senior year. Even thouth the dominating defensive units and strong running game were the primary reasons for Trinity's success Pitcher has proven to be a efficent passer, who rarely makes mistakes.

I agree with Frank, the QB situation will not be an issue. Trinity plays 3 quarterbacks, and all are capable of running the offense well. If the defense continues to play the way they have been, all the Bantams will need is a fieldgoal or two.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: TheLegend on October 30, 2005, 07:33:08 pm
glad to see some intelligence being thrown around about the "state of the league". Its interesting to see the difference is opinion on how differ programs gain the physical advantage in this league (or any league for that matter). An overlooked topic is recruiting. And I know we all know how recruiting works (roughly), there are a variety of ways to approach it. Often times, programs highlght certain aspects of its environment, of its facilities, of its networking, etc. etc.. to sell the school. Its my personal beleif that one of the most important skills for a coaching staff to possess is how to appropriatly recruit. After all, you can have flawless schemes and coaching out the wazoo, but if you fill your roster with "0's", all of that become meaningless. Maybe Amherst, Williams, and Trinity simply have superior recruiting practices than places like Tufts (who seem to get great athletes based solely on students being attracted to Boston).  I find it interesting to hear how some schools assign different coaches to particular socio-ecomonic classes, other schools simply assign states, other schools assign multiple high yeild areas in different states to particular coaches. Its funny to think that maybe in the grand scheme of things, some kids would just rather be in a city than in a rural town?

On another topic, let me say this about Trinity college: Trinity is by far the most diverse and need blind school. Something like almost 40% of enrolled students receive aid in some form. I think the next closest is Wesleyan at 25%. Perhaps Trinity is simply more progressive than other NESCAC schools in affording slghtly less qualified students the same opportunities as others. And I forget who said it, but there are certainly kids walking around hartford that are brighter than anyone of us but wont be noticed or do anything with their skills because they lack the money or the support to attend any sort of secondary education. I think its a breath of fresh air to see schools being more liberal in their applicant pool and break the all too familiar trend of white, upper-middle to upper class student bodies.

Go Whalers
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on October 30, 2005, 10:00:15 pm
. . .
On another topic, let me say this about Trinity college: Trinity is by far the most diverse and need blind school. Something like almost 40% of enrolled students receive aid in some form. I think the next closest is Wesleyan at 25%.  . . .
Go Whalers

That's some pretty serious fiction. I believe that most (if not all) NESCAC schools provide financial aid on a need-blind basis. And I know that at a place like Bowdoin 42% of students receive financial aid. I suspect that you will find similar percentages at most of the other NESCAC schools and the Trinity percentage is nothing out of the ordinary.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: TheLegend on October 30, 2005, 10:37:57 pm
I thought I over-heard that from an Admissions person. i could have heard out of context and/or be wrong all together... it wouldnt be the first time. good defense.

Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 31, 2005, 08:58:17 am
OH BOY....Look out bantam nation, it is going to be a nail biter this weekend.....I really dont know it is nerve racking...the fact that Trinity could be de-throned as league champions...
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on October 31, 2005, 09:01:36 am
Is it at all possible that the kids from Trinity have been looking ahead in a couple of the games to get to the next win?  Are they thinking it will be automatic as long as they show up?  Or is Priore calling a tighter game so teams like Amherst won't have much to scout on?  I haven't been to any of the recent games, just trying to figure this out.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Ephs1991 on October 31, 2005, 09:26:08 am
Bowdoin players and fans, you guys are 5-1 and have a possible coach of the year in Dave Caputi, where's all the noise?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 31, 2005, 11:19:07 am
former: What is there to scout?  Trinity's offense is an 8 man line with one back and 2 wide receivers, snappiing it directly to the one back who immediately plunges, sweeps or runs off-tackle, thus effectively saying "here I come - bet you can't stop me".
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on October 31, 2005, 12:12:10 pm
dirty: Even if Trinity were to lose this weekend, they have practically guaranteed themselves at least a share of their 4th consecutive league championship already. They would have to lose to the Jeffs and fall to Wesleyan in what would have to be the biggest upset in the history of NESCAC football.

There are 3 teams at 5-1, Amherst, Bowdoin, and Colby. IF Amherst can knock off the Bantams there could be a three-way tie for 1st place at the end of the year.

former: Trinity probably looked past Tufts and Middlebury, also they played the Jumbos in terrible field conditions and Tufts has a very good defense. Middlebury is much better than their record indicates and they only gained 89 yards of total offense against Trinity. As for the Bowdoin game, it wasn't really that close. Bowdoin only scored a fieldgoal after a Trinity turnover inside their own 20 yard line. And the 20 point margin of victory could have been more if not for another Trinity fumble at the Bowdoin 4 yardline that went out the endzone for a touchback. Not to mention the time of possession: Trinity 43:13 to Bowdoin's 16:47, and total yards: Trinity 413 to Bowdoin's 140 (half of which came on one 70 yard pass play that resulted in no points for the Polar Bears.)

While Trinity has been in control of all of their games the average score of Trinity's first 3 games was 46-2 while in the past 3 games the average score has been 14-1. If they hope to finish the season undefeated and keep the winning streak alive, they will have to play much better against Amherst than they have the past few weeks.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 31, 2005, 12:39:15 pm
Trin8-0: while I agree that Trinity will claim its stake at another NESCAC title....this is for the continuation of the streak...and for the seniors this year a 7 win season would be a failure of some sorts.  All these players were highly touted recruits from all over the country, they have some of the best athletes in the conference...if not in Division 3 athletics (Michael Blair)  who by the way had 0 sacks this past weekend...still needs 1 more.  I really think that 7-1 would be dissapointing seeing as the defense has only let up 9 points all season!  If they lost a 10-0 or 3-0 game it would be a black eye for the seniors who really helped build the program.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 31, 2005, 03:08:32 pm
with that said...I think Trinity dominates the Lord Jeffs this weekend...and claims stake to its third consecutive undefeated season in a row...Unprecidented in the NESCAC!  I have to back up my previous comment of the undefeated season by saying..........WESLYAN IS HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE!  You want to see some scary stuff on Halloween, try watching Weslyan play football.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 31, 2005, 04:28:30 pm
I'll never understand Wesleyan's ways.  They had a pretty good running back my senior year (2002) and still it seemed that the idea of running the football was something that never crossed their coach's mind.  You can be a pass-happy offense and run the ball at the same time.

It certainly doesn't help Wesleyan that every team knows that they are going to pass 80% of the time.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on October 31, 2005, 05:02:57 pm
actually wesleyan ran the ball last week more than they passed.  possibly hoping to cathcx the jeffs off gaurd, it obviously worked very well.  i wonder what the game plan will be against trin.  punt on 1st down?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: First6Ws on October 31, 2005, 05:26:53 pm
Every week I read an article about Trinity's latest victory and every week it states the opponent's "best chance to score" or chance to "close the lead."  Those statements always finish with "but a [sack/interception/fourth down stop] stalled the drive at Trinity's [10/20/30] yard line."  While the offense may struggle from time to time (and I use "struggle" very loosely), the defense remains dominant; opponents get credit just for coming close to scoring.  Amherst clearly has a strong team hitting its stride right now but no other defense in collegiate football has the stats (and few, if any, in D3 have the talent/coaching) of the Bantam D. "Defense wins championships" and I think this one carries the Bants past Amherst in a hard-fought battle.  

Finally, when is d3football.com gonna give any love to the NESCAC.  How is a team that's won 28 games in a row not even in the Top 25?  Not to stir up the whole "how would Trinity stack up in the playoffs" debate but to not even be recognized in the Top 25 is surprising.  Even teams like the undefeated 1998 Tulane Green Wave who played a cupcake out of conference schedule (along with the finest of Conference USA) cracked the top ten nationally in d1.  That said, as a Bantam alum, I'd much rather see another undefeated season than a national ranking (but you'd think the two would go together).
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 31, 2005, 05:36:52 pm
Tulane played teams from outside its conference.

Also, it's a lot easier to make the Top 25 in Division I-A -- there's one spot for every 4.8 schools. In Division III there's one spot for every 9.2.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: TrinCantReedGood on October 31, 2005, 06:13:44 pm
I just wanted to give a shout out to Ricky Leclerc.  He was the Player of the Week after throwing  5 TD's on only 25 attempts.  Bowdoin's Caputi will obviously be coach of the year because of the absurd turn around the Bears have made.  They have the best reciever in the league, Jeff Nolin, and one of the best quarterbacks in Leclerc.  What's even more amazing is that they can read good too.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on October 31, 2005, 06:19:31 pm
I know why they are not ranked...and it has alot to do with a biased towards the NESCAC for not playing out side of their league....I dont care what league it is...if a team has won 28 games in a row they are GOOD! and probably deserve to be ranked in the top 25.  Not to mention the fact that there are players on this team that most of the top teams in D3 would love to have playing for them....these kids are studs...and I have friends that played for D2, D1-AA, D-1, and even the PROS!  I would never try to make it seem like Trinity as a team could compete for the # 1 spot in D3, but we certainly have players who would start for Linfield, if not a very good 1-AA team...and with an excellent supporting cast behind that talent..ie...team mates and coaches....there is no doubt in my mind that TRINITY would fall somewhere in the realm of the 15-25 spot in the National Ranking.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 31, 2005, 06:26:13 pm
bant551: The stats say that in 2005 Wesleyan has been running the ball 28% (rounded) of the time. So take that!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 31, 2005, 06:34:09 pm
dirty: Wesleyan was undefeated  and untied in the 1946-48 seasons (22-0) and undefeated in the 1945-1948 seasons (26-0-1).
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on October 31, 2005, 06:36:17 pm
This board is reflecting a great deal of underrating of the talent and coaching in non-NESCAC DIII.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on October 31, 2005, 08:54:58 pm
I don't think that is the case Frank.  While I do think that an average NESCAC team would get pasted by an average non-NESCAC D-III team that is in a tough conference, I think we can all agree that there are years and teams in which NESCAC schools would be able to compete.

As a general proposition, though, I think you are right that the NESCAC, as a whole, isn't as good as most other D-III conferences.  But I also think we should consider the fact that ALL of the teams we are talking about are D-III.  Therefore, I think its entirely possible for the occasional NESCAC team to be a good or great team in the playoff conferences.  Its not as if we are comparing NESCACs to D-IAA programs or something.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: TrinCantReedGood on October 31, 2005, 09:07:59 pm
I don't want to burst your bubble.  But, you ALREADY have guys that played Div. I.  The cover story is they transferred out for playing time (which would show they aren't that good anyway) but the reality was academic under performing.  I can't think of any other school in the NESCAC that has as many Div. I transfers in all sports combined, but then again I can't think of any other schools with such pitiful academic standards.

You really have to wonder why a team with the 2nd longest win streak in all of college football isn't ranked.  This is where logic comes in.  Trinity alums can stop reading at this point.  They are overlooked for two reasons.  First is that the rankings are cumulative from season to season and your previous year might start you off higher in the opinion of voters every season starts fresh (i.e. Auburn, Utah, Tenessee)  Second, the competition isn't very good at all.  Bates, Wesleyan, and Hamilton are all jokes.  Middlebury and Williams are above that, but still aren't good.  Tufts, Amherst, Colby, and Bowdoin are all competetive... with each other.  Beating them doesn't impress a national committee.  Trinity can't be ranked without quality wins.  Talk to Texas Tech.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on October 31, 2005, 09:59:06 pm
Trincant, let me address some of your points in the order you brought them up:

1.  On the whole D I transfer issue....you're right, they arent earth shaklingly dominant players, those players are homegrown at trin.
2.  Conn College has much worse academic standards (thankfully they dont play football or else they would be so dominant everyone would just have to forfiet), and Colby and Bates are ranked 20th and 21st respectively(so why arent they exactly as good as each other?), while Trin is 25th (US News and World Report rankings), much of trins problems in rankings is due to monetary issues.  but an average SAT of 1310 isnt so shabby, by the way i was a football player and got a 1360.
3.   It is strange that a team with such a long win streak isnt ranked, a streak denotes dominance and a good team, thus there previous records should reward them in the rankings. 
4.  The competition in the NESCAC is nothing amazing, but decent enough to act as a litmus test for trinitys strength.  The nescac produces some very high quality teams occasionally, Williams in the 90s, Amherst before the trin streak, middlebury, etc.  And Trinitys current team and team from years past have been some of those.
5.  Texas Tech beat Nebraska, last time i checked they were decent

I think it a very fair argument to demand Trinity prove itself amongst other teams before receiving a rank.  "Thats why they play the games," right?

But, I think if all the voters really examined some of trinitys games and reviewed the team, and then made their best effort to fairly judge them vs other teams they might have a different opinion.  but that would take way too much time and effort, so it is just easier to leave trinity out. 

I guess the best question to ask is, "could trinity beat teams ranked in the top 25"?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: TrinCantReedGood on October 31, 2005, 11:04:41 pm
I think anyone reading these can see through your points, but I admit I take a perverse pleasure in exposing your ignorance.

1) By saying they aren't earth shakingly dominant and agreeing with me, you are saying they get in with low academic records even when then aren't great players.  That makes you look even worse.
2) I like how you are striving to be second worst.  P.S. Conn College is like 65% girls.
3)Already addressed/ no comment
4)"The NESCAC produces very high quality teams OCCASIONALLY."  You said it... not me, but thanks for making my point.
5) The mark of a weak rebuttle is trying to dispute an insignificant point of an argument, which is what you tried to do.  However, you failed.  Nebraska sucks.  They aren't ranked and got blown out by Missiouri.  They are like Williams.  They used to be good, but beating them when they aren't good doesn't count.  I know that's hard for you to grasp...

Well that was fun... I can't wait for the next Trinity alum to try to show how smart he is!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on October 31, 2005, 11:24:00 pm
hmmmm, wonder why Bowdoin is so good this year?  After all, no football players on that team got less than a 1300 huh?  check again pal
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on November 01, 2005, 12:51:49 am
Trincant:  I should have know better than to dignify your post with a responce.  Obviously, you, like a few others, are only interested in proving how much better you are than trinity alums and players. 


I must admit, it gives me pleasure (not perverse however) that you exposed your own arrogance and to know your simply upset because you were soundly defeated in the area this sight is devoted to, football. 


Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: TrinCantReedGood on November 01, 2005, 08:17:43 am
I know all our guys didn't get 1300's, but at least they broke the 1000 barrier.

I'm just going to put in a few quotes from Roony that help prove my previous points.

"I should have KNOW better..."
"...to know YOUR simply upset because you were soundly defeated in the area this SIGHT..."

YOUR guys beat my guys on the field.  Congratulations.  They earned it.  If I couldn't go Div. I (or if I already did and flunked out) obviously I would try to go to a NESCAC school too.  Our teams can admit that our players aren't as good as yours; why can't you admit that your players are academically inferior?  P.S. That crazy dot over a comma is called a semi colon.  Aren't they wild!?  The point everyone has been trying to make when it comes to Trinity academics is that you have players that our schools wouldn't let in.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on November 01, 2005, 09:08:20 am
Trincant:  I totally agree with you.  I can not beleive I am saying this but your right....SAT's and college degree's from the most elite schools is what it is all about.  When you enter the "REAL WORLD" you will only go as far as that piece of paper that say's "magna cum laude" or some other latin phrase.  Clearly, it is the intellectual prowess of certain schools and individual accomplishments in those schools which creates the rift in social status and monetary success.  OH wait a minute....where did guys like Bill Gates (net worth 51billion dollars) finish their college education?  Where did the countless other individuals that have created more wealth than even your daddy could give YOU go to college?  But your right....SAT's are what we should be talking about, because that is the indicator of future success....or is it the individuals who sweat, hurt, bleed, fight, and scratch their way to the top...the people that knock individuals like yourself to the side to cower behind your daddys bank account?  I come from a good family, but they always taught me to work for what you want....and FOOTBALL, NOT THE SAT's taught me and prepared me for the REAL WORLD.  I'am proud I went to Trinity and worked hard with my team mates to be WINNERS, which seems to be something you are not.  I bet you have a very lonely life?  Have fun playing video games or trading Pokemon trading cards...maybe I can hook you up with my 5 year old cousin he loves to play, and would probably hussel you for all your worth.  LOSER.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on November 01, 2005, 10:02:32 am
Trincant....which one of ur friends put you up to bashing Trinity online.  Why don't you get to the gym and work on ur swing so maybe you can get your batting average above your GPA and beat the Bants this spring.  Or will they be impossible to beat b/c the baseball team uses a bunch of football and hockey recruits.  It couldn't possibly be that they are just better than you and outwork you could it??  Relax and enjoy Bowdoin's success this season.  After all, it has been a while since the football team has been that good.  And don't forget to steal some IPODs during the games from the visiting team's locker room.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on November 01, 2005, 10:10:21 am
As for Trin not being in the top 25....check out the records of the teams in the top 25, they're all very very solid teams.  Most of the teams play in more competitive leagues and are winning in those leagues.  Trin might slide in towards the end of the year if some of those teams get knocked off, but don't count on it.  Don't worry about it either, as long as those kids get their 4th ring in a row, what does it matter?

Trincant, sorry for taking the personal shot, but don't go after an entire school like that.  Bantams are a proud species and don't like to be pushed around.  I'm all for your post congratulating Leclerc, keep up that stuff, but don't put yourself at the same level as "Saul" and compare academics and endowments on a football board. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on November 01, 2005, 10:27:59 am
hmmm interesting stuff...thank you former.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on November 01, 2005, 10:38:30 am
By the way PICKS FOR THE WEEK

Bowdoin @ Bates  21-13

Trin @ Amherst 14-7

Tufts @ Colby 10-17

Hamilton @ Midd  10-35

Williams @ Wesleyan 38-10
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on November 01, 2005, 10:44:43 am
by the way 25-5 on the year...not to shabby.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on November 01, 2005, 01:07:08 pm
Trincant: Are you seriously going to start pointing out grammatical errors in people’s posts? I wasn’t aware that we were being graded. But as long as we are going to nit-pick, shouldn’t it be “TrinCan’tReedGood”? (p.s. that little curvy mark is called an apostrophe… “Aren’t they wild?”)

As far as your posts are concerned, I’m afraid that you have fallen into the same category as our friend Saul. Opinions are welcome, but if you say something as fact, it must be supported by evidence. You’ve mentioned several times the low academic record of Trinity transfer students, yet you offer no proof.

All anyone has been able to regurgitate are the same US News & World Report rankings that I posted over a month ago. In terms of academics, they ranked Trinity College as the lowest NESCAC school that participates in football (let’s leave Conn College out; after all… this IS a football board). However, these rankings say nothing about the academic rankings of the football teams at these schools. My point is that, the data regarding the students performances in those rankings are based on the ENTIRE student body of each school, not necessarily the football teams. In relation to the Trinity student body:

The football team comprises less than 4%
Football players who received “tips” less than 3%
Transfer football players less than 1%

These small percentages are not the reason for Trinity’s ranking, nor can you provide any evidence that the football players at Trinity are any less intelligent than those at any other NESCAC school. If you can, I would love to see the data.

So please don’t make assumptions that the football players at Trinity are stupid. It is condescending, elitist an unsubstantiated. Let’s talk about football instead. Otherwise, please find a www.d3academics.com message board and boast about the rankings.

But if you do, remember that anytime there is a poll or ranking it is subjective and will inherently carry some bias… where as in athletics the measurement of who is best is often much more obvious (an undefeated season could be used an example).
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: First6Ws on November 01, 2005, 01:15:32 pm
This board is reflecting a great deal of underrating of the talent and coaching in non-NESCAC DIII.
Frank, I think you are right, but I also think that the challenge of going more than 3 calendar years without a loss, albeit against a NESCAC-only schedule, may be underrated by those outside the conference.  As I'm sure most posters have played on great football teams whether in college or high school, we can all appreciate the difficulty of being at your best week in and week out with a target on your back.  Granted, the 2002 Bants didn't deal much with that target but the 2003, 2004 and 2005 undefeated teams have taken the best shot from every team.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: WESTECH25 on November 01, 2005, 02:34:35 pm
Gentlemen, it gives me great pleasure to join the board.  I've enjoyed reading your posts and hearing your thoughts on the status of the league for a few years now.  I've never really been motivated enough to post until reading some of the recent threads. 

Trincan't-  feel free to correct my grammar. I'm at work and don't have time to check it.   

As a wesleyan grad I'm obviously an easy target this year.  It is embarassing that my program has fallen to this level.  We just don't have the players that we have had in the past.  I will blame admissions for it.  Hauser's hands are basically tied in terms of who can be admitted these days.  Maybe if we hadn't had some players arrested for armed robbery and a cheating scandal hadn't occured, then we would be able to admit some more "borderline" students.  Thanks young douglas.

The real reason i've posted isn't to complain about Wesleyan even though it would be real easy to continue to do just that.  I would like to congratulate Trinity, both current and former players, for the great streak they are riding.  Do i hate that trinity is so good?  of course.  Am I going to make stupid usernames bashing trinity?  no.  It is impossible to field a football team with 75 players that all scored 1400 on their SATS.  Even if you could, who would want to watch?  Every school in the Nescac admits reach students.  Has trinity admitted more than their share?  Probably, but I don't hold it against them.  Just because a kid gets 1200 on his SATS doesn't mean he can't contribute to the university on more than just a football level.  When your all bashing trinity for their admissions methods I challenge you to think outside of the box.  I bet if you actually cared to look that you would see these kids have contributed to campus life in positive ways. 

Keep up the good work Trinity, i would rather have a cold beer with you guys any day than with these whining guys that come up with excuses of why they can't beat you. 

take mercy on the Tech this year as well
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on November 01, 2005, 02:41:14 pm
Nice try, "Westech," but even cooler heads at Trinity are concerned about the direction of the Trinity football program as is reflected in this letter to the Oct. 25 issue of the Trinity student newspaper calling for the release of the GPAs and SAT scores of football players admitted by Trinity:

To the Editor:

I used to look forward to opening the Sunday Boston Globe to see how our football team fared against our traditional foes. We won some and lost some, but the games were usually tight, competitive affairs, suggestive of evenly matched student-athletes. Now, it is with trepidation and embarrassment that I check the scores: what rival did we crush by three, four or even five touchdowns this time?

Last fall, the Boston Globe ran a story on Trinity football, in which our coach made what can be charitably called egregious public relations missteps. High school athletes considering the Ivy League, but uncertain if they could compete at the Division I level, he opined, will consider some of the other NESCAC schools, but not Trinity. We know our recruiting niche, he went on, which sounded to this reader a lot like, "We know our place; we may not be able to compete with the other members of our league academically, but, by golly, we're thrashing them on the gridiron."

Respectfully, I call upon President Jones to release the SAT scores and high school GPAs and class rankings of admitted football players. Let those of us who dearly love our alma mater have the facts, so that we can determine whether being the Alabama of the NESCAC is worth it.

I also pose this query to the Trinity community: What effect would the abolition of football have on our applicant pool, student body qualifications and campus life?

Sincerely,

Gregory Barison '74
 

Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: patfan on November 01, 2005, 02:51:30 pm
Trincantreadgood...I can't even believe you are putting Bowdoin in the same class as Trinity, and Amherst. I also can't believe you think Bowdoin is somehow comparable to Colby and Williams. I fully support Colby and I would never even think of putting them in the same class as an Amherst or Trinity simply because the Mules haven't beaten them in quite some time. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Bowdoin won four games in the last four years, but now they're an elite team in the league?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on November 01, 2005, 03:22:52 pm
Trincantreadgood...I can't even believe you are putting Bowdoin in the same class as Trinity, and Amherst. I also can't believe you think Bowdoin is somehow comparable to Colby and Williams. I fully support Colby and I would never even think of putting them in the same class as an Amherst or Trinity simply because the Mules haven't beaten them in quite some time.  . .

Bowdoin did beat Amherst this year so it certainly is in the same class as Amherst this year regardless of what happened in past seasons . . .
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on November 01, 2005, 05:10:03 pm
Mr. Barisons' opinion is one of....well.....ONE!  I'am happy he wrote that letter, because it probably did something for him...but it is a cheap shot at a solid program, the admissions department, and his "beloved" alma mater.  You know the saying..."opinions are like ***holes, everyone has one", well that just about sums up your post Speedy.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on November 01, 2005, 05:21:42 pm
. .  You know the saying..."opinions are like ***holes, everyone has one", well that just about sums up your post Speedy.

And shall we hold Trinity responsible for the way in which you express yourself??
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: First6Ws on November 01, 2005, 05:29:33 pm
Speedy & TrinCant, the attempts to bash Trinity football via academics are pathetic.  There are always going to be uninformed outsiders who jump to unreasonable conclusions such as the aforementioned alum and yourselves.  You can tell Mr. Barison that I posted a HS GPA of 4.0 (3.8 at Trinity) and scored perfect on the Math SAT (with a disappointing 630 on the verbal) and, believe it or not, was even a 3-year starter on the football team.  WesTech, thanks for giving credit where credit is due.

As for the Polar Bears, an elite team typically demonstrates some semblance of consistency year to year.  The last winning season they saw in Brunswick was 1998, when Mo Vaughn led the Red Sox in batting average and HRs.  
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on November 01, 2005, 06:16:27 pm
Speedy: Please do not hold Trinity responsible for the way I present myself...I was introduced to that phrase by a wealthy business man over a couple of drinks at our restaurant who told me never to forget it...he did not finish college (net worth..100 million).  I am assuming he was preparing me for individuals like yourself.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on November 01, 2005, 06:22:15 pm
I am all for a full investigation into the Trinity Admissions department. I have complete confidence that everything is as it should be. However, to publicly announce the academic records of students because they are winning football games by too many points is utterly ridiculous. NO rules have been broken at Trinity. Players are graduating, and making positive contributions to society.

WHAT IS EVERYONE'S PROBLEM? Why can't we just play football? Investigate all you want, but all you'll find is that Priore has done a fantastic job of running his program within the rules of the NCAA, the NESCAC and Trinity College. Let's try rewarding Trinity for doing an excellent job instead of creating allegations and accusations about one of the best run programs in the history of the NESCAC.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: TrinCantReedGood on November 01, 2005, 06:26:43 pm
first of all, my gpa is so low that im pretty much assured of batting higher than that. i have no idea what you are talking about with the IPOD's but obviously if some bowdoin dudes stole some then I apologize. Stealing is not cool.  It undermines the entire economy.  Anyway, the reason I was teasing about grammar was because people were trying to point out how smart they or their school were. Obviously no one cares about grammar and I was just joking. As for my name i don't think the apostrophe is the only correction.  The joke is that read is spelled wrong and that good is used because good is an adjective and not an adverb.  I honestly can't believe that you are pointing out the mistakes on my name which are designed to poke fun at Trinity.  Mindboggling. Oh and are we serious with calling me a loser? I mean really... loser? You're at your computer you have plenty of time to think of something better than that.  It's not like you're on the spot where you might be forgiven.  You actually took the time to capitalize it too.  Wow, loser... that cut me right to the bone... you Trinity guys are as tough on the postings as you are on the field.  Since no one else reads this stuff I'm going to have to take a break because I've found myself getting way too into football postings.  I already have like 5.  And why do you get better rankings as you post more.  Shouldn't it go down because you waste your life talking about how great a team you don't even play on is?  I can see how it is addicting though.

P.S. I heard on PTI they were talking about Trinity playing USC in a plus 1 game for the real national title... any thoughts?

P.P.S. Good points everyone on the non-college grads who are millionaires.  That is definitely the more common route to the top.

In all seriousness though... more power to Trinity.  I can't even get an undefeated season on NCAA 2006.  Although I think that's because Virginia Tech's running back refuses to get tackled even by linebacker who is in the zone.  What's up with that?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on November 01, 2005, 08:24:32 pm
TrinCantReedGood: As a writer for a publicly circulated publication (even if the reading audience is infinitesimal), you should be more diplomatic when you make public comments.  I sincerely hope, for your sake, that your goal in life is NOT to become a professional sports writer.  A professional sports writer will have to write about athletes who went to schools that are ranked MUCH lower than Bowdoin... or even TRINITY for that matter.

EVEN IF you never write another sports-related article again for the rest of your life, you are likely to begin your life as a college graduate working for someone who went to a school that wasn't as highly regarded as Bowdoin.  In light of the fact that you mock Trinity students... TRINITY STUDENTS, who go to a school that is ranked in the top TWENTY FIVE liberal arts colleges in the nation, you might run into some trouble in your job interviews.

I am ranked in the top third of my class in law school.  If you were to look at the people with better GPAs, there sure as **it are people who went to schools that were not as prestigious as Trinity.  Certainly it would'nt be prudent to go up to them, and mock their undergraduate education, right?

By the way, TrinCantReedGood, that sort of elitist attitude should be reserved for Williams and Amhert.  We are posting in a NESCAC forum and everything you say about Trinity can be said about Bowdoin by people from those two schools.  If you are going to be the type of elitist little puke you come off as, you should transfer to one of those schools.  Then noone in the league could say the same things about Bowdoin that you are saying about Trinity.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Knightstalker on November 01, 2005, 10:20:34 pm
Mr. Barisons' opinion is one of....well.....ONE!  I'am happy he wrote that letter, because it probably did something for him...but it is a cheap shot at a solid program, the admissions department, and his "beloved" alma mater.  You know the saying..."opinions are like ***holes, everyone has one", well that just about sums up your post Speedy.

DB8-0, I learned that one from my Chief in bootcamp, except the Navy version has this tacked onto the end: "and they all stink!"
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: saul on November 01, 2005, 11:49:50 pm
now what's all this about me not offering any evidence that trinity has lowest academic standards within nescac football.
i will restate for the mouth-breathing trinity posters again. i cited 3 examples:
1) lowest nescac median sats ( barron's)
2) lowest nescac ranking ( us world and news report )
3) lowest nescac selectivity rate --not even in top 100 nationwide for all schools. ( usw&nr)....laughable.


that's pretty hard evidence that trinity is butt-bottom last academically in this league. the trinity situation presents both a problem and an opportunity for a fresh approach to league admissions standards. trinity has disgraced itself and the league through its violations of the spirit of nescac mission statement. as a nescac athlete myself i am ashamed that trinity is a part of nescac. trinity is ( was ) honor-bound by the nescac mission statement ( which i posted earlier ). it's one thing for an athlete to make ill-advised, morally-compromised decisions in an effort to gain an advantage on the playing field but when an institution, one supposedly committed to the pursuit of academic excellence as the m.s. calls for, seeks to leverage its low academic standards to develop a dominant athletic program, then the situation poses a threat to league unity and harmony. trinity, itself, is in turmoil over its poor peer academic standing and the shame spiral many there feel at being so academically inferior to their nescac brethren has become quite public. in complete disgust, some  trinity alums are calling for the for severe athletic reform at trinity while, sadly, others feel the only solution is terminating the football program. the trinity football program is such a concern across the  league that certain factions here at amherst claim that the role ( read: presence) of  athletics in nescac needs to be reassessed entirely.

in response to that concern i propose that an league academic index be utilized in the future to insure the that embarrassments like trinity's football program don't go unchecked in the future and to head off efforts by certain factions within academia to severly limit the stature and scope of nescac athletics. to that end, i propose that nescac institute a floor index (minimum academic s.a.t. and g.p.a. standards)  for all freshmen and transfer student-athletes applying to nescac schools. ( for bowdoin which, I hear, doesn't require s.a.t.s something would have to be worked out ). the ivy league utilizes such an index with good success and there's no reason why nescac shouldn't as well. the difference is that my proposal is a more concrete metric and would have better oversight ( a clearinghouse would be established to review data and insure compliance). through this measure economies of scale are acheived, transparancy will be attained, and an atmosphere of trust will be engendered. the index is simpler and less byzantine than the ivy counterpart and can't be massaged-- as the ivy version can. its a better mousetrap with less bells and whistles but above all it would insure that no school's standards could be dropped so low as to acheive an unfair advantage on the playing field. we all know a league standard is long overdue and would go a long way to resurrecting league harmony and mutual respect. it would, above all, be good medicine for a place like trinity that strays from a league mission statement by which all members are presently honor bound.

Lastly from the 10/25/5 trinity student paper op page, here's more insight into the scope of trinity's inferiority complex:

"......Again, I offer an apology to Ericson, for he has our best interests at heart. This letter just represents an unsettling theme - a theme in which Trinity College as an institution acts like a creepy dude at the beach with a cucumber in his speedo. Bear with me as I continue that metaphor, a la the oversexed Tripod Features or the "AT" column. Trinity wants to compete with the porn stars of the NESCAC (Williams, Amherst, Bowdoin) but simply can't. We just don't have the magnificent endowment (har-har) that these schools possess. But we can't stop complaining. This is what bugs me. This is why I'm cranky. I'm going to come out and say it: Trinity College has penis envy. Care to disagree? Our mascot, the Bantam, is defined as a small, angry cock. Disquieting.

Perhaps, somewhere, God is laughing at us. " 
i know i am, and so is the rest of the league.
 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on November 01, 2005, 11:50:46 pm
Mr. Barisons' opinion is one of....well.....ONE!  I'am happy he wrote that letter, because it probably did something for him...but it is a cheap shot at a solid program, the admissions department, and his "beloved" alma mater.  .

Mr. Barison's opinion is apparently shared by other Trinity alums. There is a a similar letter in today's student paper that says similar things. But I won't post it since you Trinity guys are just too easy to crank up. . .  
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: ktroutvon on November 02, 2005, 09:20:05 am
What do you do with legacies and large parental donors in your system (gpa floor index)?  I know people at almost every NESCAC and Ivy who fall into that category.  Also what about the few suspect students that do a PG year at Deerfield, PE, etc. to boost their stats? 

Isn't there something inherently wrong with viewing the world from a statistical order?  Peter Bernstein, a fairly well known economist and expert on risk management even comes to that conclusion in a book he wrote about the history of mathematical thought.  Doesn't the fact that NESCAC schools, for the most part (I realize Tufts and Weselyan have some graduate programs) are liberal arts colleges? 

Also, I know for a fact that Williams has gotten pretty retarded kids into their school who play soccer.  This comes from a source inside the program.   
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: nescac1 on November 02, 2005, 09:58:37 am
In the same issue of the Trinity paper, there was an outstanding article defending the program written by a Trinity football player, I suggest those bashing Trinity on this thread read it.  Needless to say, any problems that Trinity has are most definitely not attributable to the football program.  The only way to make that causal link is to compare Trinity's academic reputation, etc. during the late 90's / early part of this decade, when football was mediocre, to its status in the early 90's and today, when football is/was dominant.  I don't believe that there is any material difference among the three time periods. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on November 02, 2005, 10:56:06 am
nescac1: Thanks for bringing that article to our attention. It was very well written and articulated many of the points that myself and the other Trinity supporters have been saying for a while. The most relevant argument centers around the reasons why Trinity has fallen in the US News and World Report Rankings (none of which are related to the admission of football players). To cut out the middle-man have pasted it below (sorry if it's too much to read).


Gregory Barison '74 posed a question in the previous edition of the Tripod: "What effect would the abolition of football have on our applicant pool, student body qualification and campus life?" As a student athlete, I am well-equipped to provide an answer.

Most likely, we would still be ranked lowest amongst NESCAC schools, we would still be left with the financial burden of years past, and we would still have to enroll abnormally large classes. In addition, academically-minded students like myself would not be able to pursue the sport that they enjoy. Certain alumni and parents have attributed Trinity's declining rank in U.S. News and World Report to the Trinity College football program. Unfortunately, the answer is not that simple, nor is blame so easily placed.

Perhaps said best by Trinity Parent Robert Ericson, the U.S. News and World Report Ranking "provide [Trinity] valuable insight, some solid metrics and a sense of its standing in present day academia." As an institution, we should be concerned with Trinity's reputation and standing compared to our NESCAC counterparts, and we should take proactive action to remedy the problems. That said, before casting blame or taking action, careful attention should be paid to the roots of our decline and what would be an effective response.

In the 2006 U.S. News and World Report, Trinity declined in four categories: Faculty Resources, Student Selectivity, Financial Resources and Alumni Giving. Our falling in each of these categories has not been due to the actions of the football program or the priorities of President Jones, who has spearheaded the campaign to bring back Trinity's lost stature. In short, Trinity's current decline is the direct result of previous administrations' fiscal irresponsibility and inept oversight by members of the college and alumni. As a result, we are faced with an uphill battle on a limited budget.

Trinity's present financial predicament has forced the College to make a number of sacrifices, all which have negatively effected our national standing as a result. The U.S. News and World Report Ranking are based upon a number of factors, one of which is teacher salaries. As a result of the present financial crunch, Trinity's faculty has agreed to a pay freeze in the hopes of allowing our limited amount of capital to be put back towards the students - a step which truly shows our faculty's commitment to the student body and the school. Our student selectivity has also been negatively influenced by our fiscal burdens. Trinity is forced to enroll larger numbers of students in the hopes of increasing capital. By enrolling larger classes of students, our acceptance rate has increased relative to other NESCACs.
In order to cure the troubles within Trinity, drastic actions do need to be taken. Alumni Giving, while not sufficient to raise Trinity's ranking, is nonetheless a necessary ingredient in improving the school's reputation. Trinity's Financial Resources have been the focal point of the college's troubles. As a result of the poor (or non-existent) oversight of the college's finances in previous years, all other NESCACs far surpass Trinity in the size of their endowment. Consequently, the current administration is compensating for the irresponsible habits of former Trinity leaders.

I fail to recognize how students on the football team have contributed to the falling ranking, or how the elimination of the program would elevate our academic standing to that of other NESCAC institutions. The Trinity College football program is composed of 75 young men who truly embody what it is to be a collegiate student-athlete in America today. Despite what it seems, many parents, alumni and members of the college think, we are students, first and foremost. Football is simply our chosen extra-curricular outlet. Every day, just like other students on campus, we wake up, go to class, complete our assignments, and excel academically. The only difference is, as student-athletes we have chosen to give a great deal of our time and effort to the sport of football; this is no different from a music program, language club, or any number of other available activities on campus.

Contradictory to commonly held sentiment, playing football does not make us unqualified students, nor does it define who we are as individuals. I find it disappointing that a school such as Trinity, which prides itself on openness and diversity, cannot look beyond the "dumb jock" stereotype and see the hard-working student-athletes who have done everything their college has asked of them and more.

If we are looking for somewhere to place blame for the shortcomings of Trinity's status in the NESCAC, the students who have chosen to be members of the football program are not the logical target. While it may be gratifying to place blame, I believe it is time to move beyond casting stones and search out the most efficient means to bringing Trinity to its rightful place among NESCAC institutions.

Tim Coughlin '06


(By the way Coughlin was a 2004 academic All-NESCAC selection.)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on November 02, 2005, 01:01:10 pm
The real embarassment to the NESCAC is the attitude held by people like Saul and TrinCantReedGood.  Is it really that embarassing to play sports against a school that is ranked lower than yours, but is considered elite nonetheless?

Saul and TrinCant, how do you treat the janitors in your dorms that clean up the messes that you make?  They probably didn't go to college... so how would you go about mocking their intelligence TrinCant?  If you have no problem insulting Trinity graduates by saying that they aren't proficient readers (top 25 liberal arts school in the country mind you), what could you POSSIBLY say to people that didn't even go to college?

Its just a shame that they cannot teach class, respect for others, and diplomacy over there at Bowdoin.  You do realize, TrinCant, that there are ways to make your argument which would be more befitting of a writer for one of your school's publications, don't you?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: patfan on November 02, 2005, 02:28:27 pm
This whole discussion is rediculous....I've been reading this stuff all year and its starting to get to me. Can we stop talking about academic standards and start talking about football. Who cares if Trinity's avg SAT scores might be a few points lower then other schools. Did anyone complain this much when Williams was running the table a few years back? I want to know how Amherst can beat Trinity this weekend so my boy up in Waterville can get a piece of the title. If Colby Bowdoin and Amherst all win this weekend next weekends Colby Bowdoin game could actually have some significance for once. After all Bowdoin hasn't exactly gone into the game with any sort of a record in the past few years.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Knightstalker on November 02, 2005, 02:44:45 pm
This whole discussion is rediculous....

I am amazed at the number of people posting on the NESCAC board that can't spell ridiculous.  The NESCAC is a conference of liberal arts schools, I could understand mispelling words from an engineering school or an A&M type of school.  When people from the supposedly "Academically Elite" conference are ripping on other schools because of academic standards (always the last line of defense when justifying why a school is better than theirs or why their school sucks) they should spell properly or at least be smart enough to type in word and use spell check.

Patfan, this is not aimed at you, you just happened to mispell the word that a couple of our resident elitists have mispelled also.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on November 02, 2005, 03:10:26 pm
stalker: I hope you don't consider us all elitist, and I'm sure most gramatical errors are a product of people rushing to get their 2 cents in during a break at work or school. As long as the I can get the idea of what the person is trying to say I don't see the big deal. Though you're right it is suprising and somewhat comical that those who spend so much time arguing about academics continually make the same errors while writing.

patfan: It's my understanding that people did complain when Williams was dominating. However, there was no forum for people to publicly complain. Also most of the complaints were coming from Williams people. I agree with you though... more football please! As for the big game:

Amherst does have a shot at taking down the Bants if a few things happen.

First they need to slow the Trinity run game. The Jeffs have a great defense especially against the run. They need to commit to defending the run with 8 defenders and make Trinity beat them throwing the ball.

Second they need to protect the ball. Trinity thrives off of turnovers and they have forced an astounding 23 so far this season! They must also force a few turnovers. I don't think anyone in this league can put together a long scoring drive against Trinity. They need to create turnovers and give their offense a short field to work with... remember a fieldgoal could very well determine this game.

Which brings me to the final component neccessary for Amherst to pull the upset... the kicking game. Trinity is in the top 3 in every statistical special teams category. Amhert has good kicking teams as well, but in a low scoring game field position is critical. They must be sound, especially on the kick coverage teams for a chance to win.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Knightstalker on November 02, 2005, 03:46:01 pm
Trin8-0, there are only a couple of people that I consider elitist and they probably know who they are.  There are also a couple from the basketball boards that don't post here.  For the most part I have found the NESCAC posters like most of the others, people that just want to talk about the sports they love and have some fun along the way.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on November 02, 2005, 03:50:43 pm
. . . Did anyone complain this much when Williams was running the table a few years back?  . .

Yes -- there were many complaints - both at Williams and throughout the NESCAC. The result was that various restrictions were placed on the number of "tipped" football recruits per year (15, I think) and the number of roster spots per school (75). I suspect that there will be more reforms in the future as long as the perception continues that the league is not competitively balanced.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on November 02, 2005, 05:56:54 pm
But what does additinal restrictions mean for the league speedy?  It seems you and people of your mindset are upset their is a imbalance in the cometition in the NESCAC.  Fair enough....I would say look at every other football conference in the nation and you will see discrepencies in success across the board D-I to D-III that fluctuate perhaps not every year, but in a cyclical fashion (hell, Vanderbilt is doin decent this year).  BUT, we are the NESCAC and we are different, and I dont mean that in a snide way.  We do hold ourselves to a different standard and that is one of the reasons why it is such a great league, and one of the reasons I came a long distance to play in it.

That said, how far do we go in maintaining that balance before we are just hurting the league overall.  Would it be better to have 9 teams that are as good as the present Wes Tech and Hammy High year in an year out?  Would alumni want to come and watch what amounted to two good to average highschool quality teams duke it out in a sloppy and poorly executed game?  Sure its "college" football, but it would be awful college football.  As it is now, we are talking on this post board about whether or not trinity (and other teams from other schools in the past) would be successful on the national stage.  If more restrictions came down, we would know the future answer for sure....NO. 


Competition is the essence of Football.  To try to downgrade the NESCAC even more to attain parity would be the athletic equiveant of Communism, and we all know Communism is a big ol **** sandwich (thats about the best way to describe it in my opinion), not to mention it doesnt work.

It relies on false rhetoric, and misplaced idealism to support itself when the results are obviously disasterous.  I know, I am being totally over dramitic, but there is some truth behind this silliness.  Cant you guys see a NESCAC that has crap football, and when the alumni complain the presidents and ADs have to spew some crap about how, "Here in the NESCAC we want to mae sure football isnt given any more attention than our other sports.  THis way we can ensure that our academic standards are never comprimised by a teams desire to win and parity in the league is maintained."

Football is about competition, on and off the field.  If everyone else in the league is upset that Trinity is winning all the games why dont your put some pressure on your coach to work harder to recruit kids that are smart, good football players?  And when they get there, get a coach to work himself and the players HARD, and not treat it like a chill little ho hum NESCAC program.  If you do that, then you will have a team built around the priciples of Trinity, and then you will beat them.

Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on November 02, 2005, 06:15:24 pm
Amen.....
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on November 02, 2005, 06:33:27 pm
NESCAC is an abomination to football. What speedy calls reform I call conspiracy deliberately designed to reduce competition, thereby generally and specifically lowering quality  and  depriving student-athletes of opportunities within their colleges and also pre-matriculation choices. NESCAC ought to be abolished for football purposes, allowing and requiring each of the member colleges to form unilaterally its football program as it sees fit with respect to opponents, dates and number of games, dates and number of practices,  squad size and otherwise. Restrictions which NESCAC imposes on its member colleges would be hard core antitrust violations involving criminal sanctions and civil liability if practiced in the commercial world.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 02, 2005, 06:44:47 pm
roonyhufsfarts, actually a communist is the best system for football competition.  Look at the NFL.  Profit sharing, Players unions, thats as close to communism as your going to get, and I think it works well.

Lets say Bill Gates buys the tampa bay devil rays, spends 300 million on his team and 100 million on luxury taxes.  The devil rays will win the world series...very capitilistic and very un-competitive and no one would watch probaseball after a few devilrays world series...

Frank, as you know we disagree with this issue.  If the nescac colleges listened to you, they would simply throw trinity out of the league.  As you say yourself, trinity can play whoever they want.  If trinity wants to keep playing nescac schools, they have to follow nescac guidelines.  If they disagree with them, then they can play someone else or leave the league.

Frank, these restrictions are not legal restrictions, they are non-leagal unofficial agreements between league members.  This is a free country, (as you know and love) private people/colleges can form rules however they want.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on November 02, 2005, 06:57:19 pm
But what rules is Trinity breaking? 

Is there some sort of a rule that no college is allowed to be ranked the lowest out of the nine elite colleges in the league?

Doesn't that mean we can only have one team in the league?

All we ever hear about from Saul is that Trinity is breaking rules.  When told he cannot back that claim up, he "backs it up" with the fact that Trinity has the lowest SAT scores, per student, in the NESCAC.  Fascinating?  Yes indeed; NOONE knew THAT!  Relevant?  Not when we are talking about whether Trinity broke the rules.

The NESCAC should ban great coaching, great recruiting, and dedicated players that buy into a program and work their tails off year-round while most other teams in the NESCAC have weightlifting programs that would embarass competitive high schools.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on November 02, 2005, 06:59:34 pm
jonny: Not in violation of the antitrust laws. But legalities aside,  NESCAC restrictions are bad educational policy because they limit student-athletes in their opportunities and choices. The Rule of 75 is a simple example of such a limitation.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 02, 2005, 07:05:00 pm
Ok, what about the 9,500 rejections out of 10,000 applicants that dont get a chance to get a Williams Eduacation every year?  Thats a school choice isn't it?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 02, 2005, 07:07:34 pm
and bant551, trinity isnt breaking any rules.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Billsville on November 02, 2005, 07:12:44 pm
I would like to see a breakdown of eventual earnings among nescac football players and nescac athletes in general vs the rest of the student body. I would venture that the athlete's earnings are higher in the long run. This can be attributed to a competitive streak that is fostered through athletics. Most athletes end up going into business or another competitve practice, while few go into acedemia where there is some competition for positionsbut overall it is a much more laid back non competitve field once you are in. This cycle fosters a resentment and jealously among professors and administrators agaisnt athletes who they beleive are less qualified but make more money. Trustees know that they cannot get rid of football because of the huge donation losses that would cause. But you would probably find that the majority of faculty and administration would get rid of football if they made the decision. Rather then trying to bring everyone down to their level, the adminstrators should be making every effort to try and foster the competive spirit in non-athletes. These are all generalization and are not universally true but I beleive they are fair generalizations of the feeling throughout the nescac.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on November 02, 2005, 07:28:12 pm
I'd like to see those gutless pukes Bucci and Saul in person.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 02, 2005, 07:28:30 pm
billsville, lets hope that the trustees keep football because nescac football is one of the greatest traditions in this country.  

and so is football for that matter.  
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on November 02, 2005, 07:34:34 pm
But what does additinal restrictions mean for the league speedy?  It seems you and people of your mindset are upset their is a imbalance in the cometition in the NESCAC.  . . .

I am simply saying what I think will happen -- not what should happen. I really don't know enough about the actual qualifications of the Trinity football players to ascertain how much of an advantage is associated with Trinity's lower admission standards or whether the disparity in academic qualifications between Trinity football players and other NESCAC football players is in fact huge. If those diaparities are in fact huge (as many seem to think), then my guess is that the NESCAC will act to restrict the practices that cause those disparities. But right now we are very much in the realm of suppositions and anecdotal evidence, none of which will ultimately be dispositive.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on November 02, 2005, 07:37:42 pm
NESCAC is an abomination to football. What speedy calls reform I call conspiracy deliberately designed to reduce competition, thereby generally and specifically lowering quality  and  depriving student-athletes of opportunities within their colleges and also pre-matriculation choices. . .

There wouldn't be a NESCAC if its members were interested in raw race-to-the-bottom competition.  If the NESCAC schools shared your world view, NESCAC wouldn't exist. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on November 02, 2005, 07:48:43 pm
WOW!......been away on business this week with no access to email (besides the fact that the Jumbos have been licking their wounds for the pastings we've taken from the Jeffs & Ephs the past 2 weeks, I didn't feel like posting anyway...doesn't beating Amherst the past 2 years count for anything?!).....amazing posts re: Trin, academics, & the NESCAC in general (let's all just ignore Ubile, he  hates the NESCAC for no reason, ok?). Can we talk some football?!

Game of the Week....Trinity at Amherst...time to go to the TALE OF THE TAPE (and I didn't look at the stats....just went by what I saw at each game vs. Tufts.....both played in very messy conditions) :

Running O: Trin
Passing O: Am
Run D: Am
Pass D: Trin
Team speed: Even
Homefield advantage: Am
Intangibles: Trin
Coaching: Trin

Final score: 17-14

Trinity

Go Jumbos!

Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on November 02, 2005, 08:07:34 pm
speedy: That's my point. NESCAC shouldn't exist. Each college should be able to run its program as it sees fit and not be governed by rules of others limiting its actions. If a college independently chooses to limit its actions, so be it. NESCAC has not existed since time immemorial. At one time and for a long time the colleges now comprising NESCAC got along with healthy, high quality athletic programs and did so by acting independently. If a college sufficiently objected to the practices of another college, the first college could choose to decline to schedule the second college.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on November 02, 2005, 08:38:52 pm
speedy: That's my point. NESCAC shouldn't exist. Each college should be able to run its program as it sees fit and not be governed by rules of others limiting its actions. If a college independently chooses to limit its actions, so be it. NESCAC has not existed since time immemorial. At one time and for a long time the colleges now comprising NESCAC got along with healthy, high quality athletic programs and did so by acting independently. If a college sufficiently objected to the practices of another college, the first college could choose to decline to schedule the second college.

But the facts are that the NESCAC does exist. The 10 member institutions voluntarily chose to join together and form a league and establish rules and procedures.  There is no "Frank Uible" or "Ayn Rand" College in the group and no desire on the part of any of them to act as you recommend. If any institution desired to do as you suggest, it is free to do so but none is in any way interested in your approach. In fact, they did as you suggested years ago and decided that there was more to be gained by joining together and forming a league of insitutions with common purposes.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on November 02, 2005, 08:46:42 pm
speedy: Yes, they did. But it is anticompetitive and bad education policy. I can only guess what its advantages are.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 02, 2005, 08:52:34 pm
aslo frank, bates bowdoin and colby didnt want to get their buts kicked by umaine everyear, and they didnt want to look every year for a team to schedule, and they liked what the ivy leagues did, so they all AGREED to follow rules they saw beneficial....if you dont like the rules, you can leave!!!!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on November 02, 2005, 08:59:24 pm
I agree with speedy.  I like the NESCAC and its close community.  I also agree that they gain more by being together than as being seperate.  The thing I disagree with is the fact we cant play out of conference.  The playoff ban is one thing (which I disagree with) that scares alot of administrators for silly reasons but reasons that evoke quite a bit of fear.  Allowing a couple of non-conference games for teams that wished to schedule them should be allowed.  I think a couple of schools would take the option to play a non conference game AFTER they finished playing the entire NESCAC schedule.  Remember, there are some pretty bad teams in the New England Football Conference that some of the lower schools could compete against.  But hey, when you establiosh that your good, take a shot at a big dog.

This way the emphasis is on the NESCAC schedule still, and winning its championship, but also gives a small outlet to the world to show everyone (inculding the players) know how good they reallly are.

I just really hope that more restirictions do not come down.  That would really upset me.  It runs contrary to every bit of logical I learned as a student at Trinity and I would not support them finacially until they changed (and that would hurt too, because I really want to, i love the place).

P.S. Speedy, love the Ayn Rand reference.  Favorite book is The Fountainhead
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on November 02, 2005, 09:00:29 pm
jonny: I don't like the rules, and consequently I am declining to apply for admission to any of the NESCAC colleges. I don't need to conspire with any person or institution to do that.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 02, 2005, 09:04:56 pm
frank, swathmore, clarkson, skidmore choose not to have football together

Umaine, unh, uri, umass chooses to join a league and divistion that has limited number of scholorships.

Williams, amherst, bowdoin choose to join a league and division that doesnt participate in playoffs.

Frank Ubile chooses not to do what he wants to do.


its all the same frank, hang out with who you want to hang out with and then leave when you want to.  Its america, not the fountainhead.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: patfan on November 02, 2005, 09:08:37 pm
I kind of like the fact that Trinity has been dominating the past few years. It gives teams something to aim for every off season. Trinity beat Middlebury by two touchdowns, if they had pulled off the upset it would have made their season this year. I also feel that because that game was so close Middlebury was able to see that they're really are a solid team. The result...beating Bates by forty points. Lets be serious This whole Trinity streak will not last forever. It's only a matter of time before another one of the NESCAC's is doing the same thing.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on November 02, 2005, 09:22:31 pm
Frank, NESCAC plays football.  Team with the most wins is the champion.  Same as the Ivy League. No playoffs allowed.  That's the rule.  Very simple.  Kids can go play somplace else if they want something else.  They all graduate with the best education a tuition buys......that's the bottomline.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on November 02, 2005, 10:43:32 pm
mariner: What are the justifications for restricting squad size to 75, for prohibiting a 9th and 10th game, for limiting inter-collegiate play to conference colleges or for declining post-season play, all conspiratorially? Shouldn't decisions about those matters be left to the individual colleges? The Conference flexes its muscles over its individual members apparently for the sake of flexing, all to the detriment of the student-athletes of the member colleges, whose options are thereby closed when they should be kept open as much as possible.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 02, 2005, 10:46:01 pm
frank, if trinity wants to have more than 75 guys then they can be an independent.

If they want a 9th or 10th game, same thing, leave the league

If they want to pay their players, then they should join the new england semipro league.

its all up to them what they want to do.  For now, they joined the nescac.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on November 02, 2005, 10:52:31 pm
jonny: In my judgment, a foolish move. It is anti-student. The administrators of these colleges can't be that stupid. There must be nefarious politics involved.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on November 02, 2005, 11:27:50 pm
mariner: What are the justifications for restricting squad size to 75, for prohibiting a 9th and 10th game, for limiting inter-collegiate play to conference colleges or for declining post-season play, all conspiratorially? Shouldn't decisions about those matters be left to the individual colleges? The Conference flexes its muscles over its individual members apparently for the sake of flexing, all to the detriment of the student-athletes of the member colleges, whose options are thereby closed when they should be kept open as much as possible.

Who do you think the conference is??? What is the nonsensical talk of "conspiracies"?? NESCAC consists of its members. The schools which comprise the NESCAC establish NESCAC policies and rules on a collaborative basis. These decisions are talked through at countless meetings throughout the year involving the ADs and the presidents of all 10 NESCAC schools. There is no sinister and mysterious dark force that is imposing decisions on the schools which make up the NESCAC. By your reasoning, there should be no conferences as every single conference in the US has rules that it applies to its members.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on November 03, 2005, 12:04:54 am
speedy: A collaboration is a type of conspiracy - in this case working to the detriment of certain actual and potential students.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trincoll on November 03, 2005, 12:07:04 am
I do not know much history of the Nescac b/c I never heard about it until being recruited by Chuck Priore. What I want to know is how long has Trinity been ranked below all other Nescac schools. (excluding Conn College this being a FOOTBALL forum) B/c we have not always been this dominant. People choose to go to Trinity some because we couldnt get into sudh colleges as Williams and Amherst or some of us choice Trinity over them as some of my classmates did. But I choose Trinity because it is the 25th best Liberal Arts college. I think the letter written by Tim Coughlin (in the Trinity newspaper posted earlier) shows more of the problem why Trinity is ranked below all other Nescac. I mean in my 4 years their 4 diffrent presidents. Their has to be something wrong and it is not the 75 guys sweating their butts off everyday preparing so the streak can continue.  Lastly I choose Trinity because I wanted to have a Nescac football record of 27-5 the kids graduating this year 31-1. The streak was never in question in my mind other then against Williams when we smoked them I knew it was safe. And what is this talk of Amherst D Trinity will pitch another shutout and if you cnat score you cant win. and whoever posted AMherst D was faster you have not seen Trinity play this year.

Im sorry for the long post long time reader first time writer two suggestions for this board room shorter post b/c roonyhufs halfway through I am daydreaming either their too long or i just went to trintiy so I must be stupid
and please lets cut the Academic talk and stick to football but you guys have nothing to right about
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin4eva on November 03, 2005, 12:35:57 am
I agre with trincoll about all us at trinity being reel smart.  I dindt just get in this place because i can run fast.  I have a great gpa and I was in the top half of my high school class.  also i like chicken.   anyway i don't no why you guys are all talking all the time about admission reglations and selectivity when we could just talk about football and what a great game it is.  i love football.  i love that smell of the pads and muddy shoes.  i love the cold grass and the hard hits.  i love the lockerroom friendships and shower time with all the guys.  i love the ladies.  i know our streak won't last much longer but its been fun and exciting and just a good time.  by the way i just want to know if any of you remember the world series a couple years ago with the angels?  it was awesome? 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: PolarBearNation on November 03, 2005, 01:02:05 am
I agree with trin4eva, why all the talk about standards and test scores? save that stuff for the off season if you still even care to argue about it.  For now, we only have 2 more weeks of this short season to talk about some of the great stories that have been developing over the course of the season.  4 Teams with 1 or 0 losses going into week 7, Williams turning the season around after a slow start, Trinity continuing their streak, Bowdoin turning the program around...Not to mention some of the potential matchups that carry significance at the end of the year.  Amherst v Trinity....Bowdoin v Colby....Amherst v. Williams.  No one cares about who can and can't get into any given school, what matters is that the people who are there are playing there asses off for 2 more weeks so lets enjoy it while we can.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: stumpy on November 03, 2005, 01:03:39 am
The number of posts someone submits is a direct function of their coolness.   Something to think about.  It appears trinity supporters are not cool;  no surprise.  I am stumpy.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 03, 2005, 02:23:15 am
Ahem.

Your pathetic attempts to make us believe you are from Trinity are just sad, Trin4eva. Why would you be a Trinity person if you are posting from Colby College?

Give it up. That's so lame.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 03, 2005, 02:24:40 am
I am stumpy.

Are you? Because it looks like you're the same person as "Trin4eva" with a different e-mail address.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 03, 2005, 07:02:32 am
Pat, Ill give trin4va the benefit of the doubt here only because I think it was a joke.  I had a small laugh reading that post.

If he seriously thought people would think he was from trinity he should be ashamed.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: ktroutvon on November 03, 2005, 09:02:28 am
I've said it before and I'll say it again.  The biggest problem Trinity has had in the last decade as an institution is Dick Hersh.  I have dealt with him personally and the guy is a joke who doesn't belong in an institution of higher learning.  Frankly, he makes some of the old headmasters at Deerfield look like the nice grandmother everyone has. 

Everyone seems to forget that Hamilton is in the NESCAC.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on November 03, 2005, 09:28:59 am
It must be pretty boring to be up in Maine this time of year, you guys have all this time to set up different emails in an attempt to bash Trinity.  As Pat said, it's pathetic.  Go run along and support the real team at Bowdoin, the Women's Basketball Program.

Ktroutvon,  I agree with you about Dick.  But it seems a bigger problem was the spending spree Evan Dobelle went on before he jumped ship.  I've heard about how great a guy he is and how he supported all the athletic teams, but Trinity is now suffering from all of the purchases he made.  It's too bad, b/c Trinity is a great place to spend four years. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on November 03, 2005, 09:55:29 am
frank & johnny: I agree with both of your arguments to an extent. Each member NESCAC shcool has the right to leave the league if it wishes, but as speedy said, no one has any interest in leaving. If a school does wish to stay it must abide by all the rules of the league. What I would like to see happen is some changes to the rules in regards to football. These changes would actually make football more closely resemble the other NESCAC sports. For example: Why not play out of conference games? Why not be eligible for the division III playoffs? Why not extend the season by 1 or 2 games? Other NESCAC sports teams are given these opportunities; football should be no different.

I love the NESCAC. It is a great league with fantastic schools, wonderful traditions and even better rivalries. However, let's shed some of that elitist attitue and open ourselves up to the rest of the D3 football world. To me, there doesn't seem like any reason not to.


Everyone seems to forget that Hamilton is in the NESCAC.

We didn't forget... we just don't like to admit it.  ;D

WESTECH: I'll take you up on that beer. Come to the Trin-Wes game on the 12th. We'll be at the tailgate under the big tent that says "What game?" on it.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: ktroutvon on November 03, 2005, 10:12:59 am
My point with the Hamilton reference was simply that there isn't even a correlation (let alone any proof of causation) between academic standards and quality of football programs in the NESCAC universe. 

I have a different view of this for the entire D3 landscape that I won't get into. 

NESCAC schools clearly like their world and believe it does something for the member institutions (otherwise no one could explain the UAA where I have some decent inside knowledge into U of R's thougts on this).  However, if a NESCAC member accepts this, then they should severely restrict any talk of any of their member school's strength on a national level.  That is the tradeoff.  When I hear people here speaking of Trinity as a championship contender I think "let them eat cake".
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: First6Ws on November 03, 2005, 01:39:14 pm
ktroutvon, if you're referring to a national championship, I haven't heard anybody mention Trinity as challenging Linfield or Mount Union, but I think a consistently undefeated NESCAC program can hang with its fair share of teams in the bottom half of the top 25. 

Going back to the "weak conference doesn't deserve a national ranking" argument that others have brought up, I don't buy it.  I played on a USA Today nationally-ranked high school team from Connecticut, not exactly a haven for high school football.  I think there are a lot of parallels between Trinity and that team.  For example, we never played anyone who played anybody else out of state, much like Trinity doesn't play anyone who plays outside the conference.

Also, though I haven't seen Amherst in action this year, I find it hard to believe that they have any speed advantage over the Bants.

I too found Trin4eva's post entertaining

Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: ktroutvon on November 03, 2005, 01:50:22 pm
It's not soo much as a weak conference doesn't deserve a national ranking is that there is no measuring stick.  What I was saying is that NESCAC schools have chosen to insulate themselves from the rest of D3 in football.  They cannot then turn around and ask for or demand national recognition.  Even if a team merits such recognition. Its hypocritical.   

This is coming from someone with a BA from a shcool that itself doesn't schedule much out of its area (though I believe that to be more of a budget issue than competitive/football decision).
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: First6Ws on November 03, 2005, 02:31:27 pm
ktroutvon, i like your point on the insulation of the league.  Essentially, if NESCAC doesn't care about playing on a national scale (as every other d3 team aspires to), we shouldn't care about being ranked on a national scale.  I can buy that, since, admittedly, a NESCAC championship means most to me as an alum. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on November 03, 2005, 03:10:14 pm
ktroutvon: just because there is no meauring stick does not mean the great NESCAC teams that come and go would not be able to compete.  And while the schools and prezs have chosen to insulate the league, we players can banter (pun intented) on and on about whether or not we could be successful in the playoffs.

Sure, we NESCACs cant DEMAND recognition, but isnt it the job of the voteres to be educated about the best 25 teams in D-III, regardless of the conference?  I mean, Trinity is on the list, just not in the top 25 so they are at least gettting some attention.  Its quite an accomplishment to be even in the pole despite our insulated nature.   Like I said in a previous post, it is easier to just say, "they dont play out of conference, they dont get ranked in the top 25."  Hey, if I was a voter I probably would have the EXACT same attitude.  Its not like their is a BCS game riding on it.

Moral of the story: Trinity most likely could beat a good number of teams in the lower 25, could be competitive with the mid section, and most likely loose to the top teams.  Will we ever know...nope.  Is it really important....nope.  Is this post getting too long....yes
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on November 03, 2005, 03:34:04 pm
Unfortunately, I'd have to agree that since Trinity doesn't allow its team to go to the playoffs (in the sense that they are part of the league and have a say in those decisions), it is only fair that playoff-league teams get the benefit of the doubt.

It is still possible, though, that they can get in if some of the teams on the fringe end up losing a game or two.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: ktroutvon on November 03, 2005, 04:30:12 pm
I'm not trying to take on the role of the rest of DIII here, but:

A.  Why should voters include a conference that closes its walls to everyone else?  A voter cannot do his "job" of evaluating a school in a conference that has never played outside competition. 

B.  While I don't expect that someone would pick a DIII school based on football, if it was that important why choose to go to a NESCAC school knowing the remifications of that decision? Hence the reference to French royalty.
(Before I get indundated with NESCAC PR, I spent time at a boarding school and am well versed in the virtues of a NESCAC education.  I think they are great schools!)
--You should be happy with the NESCAC championship. 

As for Trinity beating a top 15-20 program, its nto very bold to make a proclimation that cannot be proven or disproven.  Even less so do it on a board where you are preaching to the choir.  Why not do all the talk about Trinity on the general boards or in other conference boards?  Even if the responses will be difficult to translate.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on November 03, 2005, 04:35:05 pm
Ktroutvon:  unfortunately, noone else would want to hear anything about the NESCAC.  And due to the fact that it is the NESCAC's decision not to join the playoff-eligible leagues, it is only the fault of the NESCAC itself that noone cares.

Imagine the response if someone said that Trinity could compete with playoff teams on a general board.  It would not be pretty.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on November 03, 2005, 05:43:42 pm
There really is only one way to look at the issue of Trinity football competing in the D3 playoffs.  If we take other NESCAC sports who compete on the national scale, we will see NESCAC athletes able to compete and even dominate the national polls...i.e. Lacrosse, basketball, hockey, baseball.  Would it be to agressive to say that the athletes playing football at Trinity would be equally as sucessful on the field as the other NESCAC mens teams that have been ranked nationally in other sports?  In addition, in 2003 and 2004 we sent players to the Aztec Bowl....when asked if Trinity could compete amongst other schools, the answer was a definitive YES.  Now I know those opinions are biased, but good athletes know how to gauge competiton.  If these athletes felt that Trinity could compete I would have to believe their sentiments.  Also, I believe that in 2003, Grahm Goldwasser was slected as one of the captains for the USA team...he was a linbacker for Williams and was arguably the second best linebacker in the league....behind a Trinity linebacker.  The point is, there is talent in the NESCAC..and I would challenge anyone to refute that...we have athletes that could compete on any D3 team in the nation....as I have said before, as a team we might not be top 10 material...but top 25 is a definite.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on November 03, 2005, 06:19:36 pm
db....I agree re: your comments on other sports.......look at the national polls for soccer, field hockey, lacrosse, x-country, etc, etc....NESCAC schools frequently have teams listed there...& frequently dominate the top 10-25.....
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on November 03, 2005, 06:44:58 pm
There really is only one way to look at the issue of Trinity football competing in the D3 playoffs.  If we take other NESCAC sports who compete on the national scale, we will see NESCAC athletes able to compete and even dominate the national polls...i.e. Lacrosse, basketball, hockey, baseball.  Would it be to agressive to say that the athletes playing football at Trinity would be equally as sucessful on the field as the other NESCAC mens teams that have been ranked nationally in other sports?   . .

I agree 100%. I have been mystified as to why so many seem to accept the idea that the best NESCAC team is not as good as the best team in most other conferences simply because it does not play outside its conference.  Interconference play provides data points to compare teams in differant leagues but the absence of interconference play does not automatically mean a reduced quality of play. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 03, 2005, 06:57:59 pm
I would just say that teams like Ithaca and Springfield and sjf have much more physical lineman and running backs than the nescac schools.  They are stronger and more athletic and I think a team like trinity would lose it on the line of scrimmage against a team like ithaca or sjf.  those guys are too strong and quick.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 03, 2005, 06:59:26 pm
and to be fair, I guess Im a little biased too, but Ive seen about 20 nescac games and about 20 e8/d3 games in the last 10 years.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on November 03, 2005, 07:10:19 pm
Utah, I didn't think about that argument and it does put things into perspective (about how other sports teams from the NESCAC do in playoffs and how football isn't inherently different than those sports).

While I still think its only fair that NESCAC's have a harder time getting ranked in football, there is nothing inherently different about football that makes the analogy with other sports in the NESCAC that go to the playoffs illogical.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 03, 2005, 07:18:45 pm
well bant551, there is a difference of sqauad size.  In football you need 50 solid football players to have a top 25 team.  all those other sports you need like 10 solid athletes, some sports less.

And we all know its hard for schools with high academic standards to get 50 solid males out of 1,000 males in the total student body. 

Im not saying Trinity couldnt be a top 25 or even top 10 team for that matter, but I wouldn't use other sports successes as an example.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on November 03, 2005, 07:39:56 pm
Utah,

You make some sense on the squad size but a strong counterpoint could be made for men's lacrosse programs as national powers.  They have larger size squads and I know that Middlebury & Tufts, amond other NESCACs,  has been top 10 ranked teams the past few years & Middlebury's has played (not sure if they won) in the national championship game.  Matter of fact, a number of the Jumbo football players also play lacrosse, namely their starting QB.  (Now if Tufts Offense could only score like the lacrosse team does!!).
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on November 03, 2005, 07:41:34 pm
Very good points about the squad size.  I'd tend to agree, but watching the Trinity offensive and defensive lines these past few years, I don't think they'd be any softer than D-3 lines from playoff conferences.  They're very good and the O-line from last year was made up of guys that were big enough to play at any other D-3 school.  And they were VERY good.  I cannot compare this year's O-line because I haven't seen them play.

So I think you made a great point about squad size and I think that would be a very big factor most years.  I do, however, think that the recent Trinity squads have been machines.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 03, 2005, 07:47:20 pm
lacrosse might not be a good example either.  The sport itself is still a mainly prep-school, upperclass sport, perfect for the nescac.  It is also mainly a northeast phenomonon, giving the nescac even more of an advantage.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 03, 2005, 07:49:31 pm
And mariner yes, Middlebury has won several national championships and the nescac is the best league in division 3 lacrosse.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on November 03, 2005, 08:08:50 pm
Good points all around, but how about we talk about something that's not hypothetical. For instance this weeks games. Let's hear some predictions... anybody think Amherst can pull the upset? Bates vs Bowdoin and Tufts vs Colby could also be good games. I'm definately goin up to Amherst for the game. Any one else going? Saul be sure to come say hi, bring bigtoe and bobbyj too.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on November 03, 2005, 08:16:17 pm
How many persons opining on this subject have considerable experience (i) in watching non-NESCAC DIII teams play and (ii) in judging the comparative quality of college football play?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 03, 2005, 08:17:40 pm
Id say I do Frank, but its still only an opinion of a big football fan/ex d3player
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on November 03, 2005, 08:39:22 pm
jonny: You are one.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on November 03, 2005, 09:25:28 pm
Frank....for what it's worth, I've seen more NJAC games over the past 30 some odd years of serious watching than NESCACs......
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: PolarBearNation on November 03, 2005, 09:34:28 pm
I thought this site was about NESCAC football, not NESCAC academic standards and lacrosse prestige.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 03, 2005, 10:29:13 pm
I thought this site was about NESCAC football, not NESCAC academic standards and lacrosse prestige.

It is polarbearnation....so stop asking questions and just comment on the games this saturday and the games last saturday.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: patfan on November 03, 2005, 10:40:29 pm
I agree...lets talk some football. I'm going to pick Bowdoin over Bates simply because of their passing attack. the Bowdoin offense will take complete advantage of a VERY weak Bates secondary. I think that kid Nolan is going to have another huge game for the Polar Bears. I think that kid #2 is eating his words right about now. I believe he told the Bowdoin Newspaper that he was the best reciever in the league this year. His teamate Nolin is making him look foolish. Stratton and Hammond will have to get after it and force Bates into some turnovers as well. I think the Bates offense is underated, especially going up against a weak Bowdoin defense. 27-17 Bowdoin
    Amherst will pull it out against Trinity. They're playing at home in front of what will be a huge crowd. The run desfense is very solid and that fifty front will cause problems for the Trinity zone running attack. Not to mention # 20 is the best corner in the league this year. I don't think the Amherst offense has gotten enough credit. They have three legit runners, a very good quaterback who is more then capable of making big plays, and the best athlete in the league outside of anyone on Trinity in #1. 17-14 Amherst
     I think Colby may have its hands full with Tufts. They're a scary team. They play tough and have a great defense. The Colby offense is going to have to be really clicking to pull it out. The Colby defense has to step it up big time. Look for Smith to have a big game. I think the coaches have lit a little bit of a fire under his ass this week. 24-14 Colby
    I'm not that interested in the rest of the games.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 03, 2005, 10:52:41 pm
I don't know if anyone on this board reads Around the Nation, but they should for some important news regarding us and the NESCAC.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: gordonmann on November 03, 2005, 11:34:34 pm
If you're going to the Trin-Amherst game, look for K-Mack.  It'll be a great chance to talk with a cool guy and learn more about the rest of the Division III landscape.

Go Clucks!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on November 04, 2005, 08:47:08 am
Amherst will pull it out against Trinity. They're playing at home in front of what will be a huge crowd. The run desfense is very solid and that fifty front will cause problems for the Trinity zone running attack. Not to mention # 20 is the best corner in the league this year. I don't think the Amherst offense has gotten enough credit. They have three legit runners, a very good quaterback who is more then capable of making big plays, and the best athlete in the league outside of anyone on Trinity in #1. 17-14 Amherst

If Trinity can put up 14 points they will win #29. I agree the Lord Jeff offense is underrated, but you can't expect them to put up almost twice as many points as the Bantam defense has allowed the entire season! I agree the Trinity offense may struggle to put up a lot of points against a tough Amherst defense. However, they have the weapons to at least get into field goal position and Swiniarski may be the best kicker in the league. Trinity will win the field position battle with 2004 all league punter Tim Coughlin and excellent punt/kick coverage teams combined with arguablly the NESCAC's best ever defense who has allowed only 9 points in 6 games and have forced 23 turnovers.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on November 04, 2005, 09:10:42 am
Here is what worries me about tomm game against Amherst.  While I agree with Trin8-0 that Amherst will need to work hard for some offensive production...it is their D-fense that has me worried.  If Amhersts D can force some turnovers and put points on the board with an interception or fumble recovery for a touchdown...well there you hav it.  They will put up at least 10 points offensively and 1 touchdown by the D could do it for the Lord Jeffs...either way, both teams need to play flawlessly or the game could be decided on just one mistake!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on November 04, 2005, 10:10:35 am
Personally, I think the Bants turn it up a notch in the big game.  PatFan, wouldn't you say that Trinity has 3 legit runners and a QB who is very capable of making big plays as well.  If it comes down to field possession and TO's I like the Bants in this game.  They 5 man front may be a little different for the Bants, but I'm sure Priore has been getting the O Line ready for it all week. 
Anyway you look, it should be a great game.  I wish I could make it up there, but I have prior engagements.  Best of luck to the Bants.  Im taking them at 16-10, simply b/c Josh Pitcher doesn't lose games. 
Saul, I hope you wear a name tag so some of these posters can see who you really are.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on November 04, 2005, 11:30:25 am
Picks for this week

Bowdoin 28
Bates  24

A closer game than expected. Bowdoin looks past the Bobcats towards next weeks showdown with Colby. However, they still pull out the win.

Trinity  13
Amherst  3

For the second straight year this is the biggest NESCAC game on the schedule. The Bants win a close one to all but wrap up their 3rd consecutive perfect season. Turnovers, and big plays make the difference. In the end the Trinity defense is too much for the Jeff's to over come and Trin wins it's 500th game and 29th in a row.

Colby  14
Tufts  10

The Mules struggle against a solid Tufts defense, but still edge the Jumbos at home. The late season collapse continues for Tufts as Colby shuts down a struggling offense.

Middlebury  21
Hamilton  10

The Panthers have turned the corner and will be too much to handle for Hamilton High, especially at home where they always play well. Hamilton can look towards Bates next week with a shot to get it's second win of the season.

Williams  53
Wesleyan  13

One of the worst match-ups all year. A suddenly dominating Eph offense will embarrass the Cards at their own Homecoming. Don't worry, Wes Tech... the season is almost over.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: patfan on November 04, 2005, 01:22:29 pm
formerbant...I haven't seen Trinity this year, but I have seen Amherst. This kid Kehoe is hands down the best quaterback in the league this year. I think a lot of his success has to do with #1 and #5 two outstanding playmaking recievers. I'm sure Pitcher is great too, but he doesn't get to throw as much as Kehoe. If you go to the game on Sat you will know what I'm talking about. It should be an unbelievable game.
How about a little dirt on Tufts?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: PolarBearNation on November 04, 2005, 02:10:14 pm
Bowdoin 28 Bates 17
Bowdoin's bend but don’t break defense proves to be too much for Bates to handle.  Bowdoins not too far removed from being in Bates position so overlooking them isn't even a question.

Colby 21 Tufts 7
Colby's defense will eat the Tufts offense alive unless they decide to snap out of the 2nd half funk they've been in.  Colby capitalized on turnovers and runs away early.  Tips for playing Tufts:  Wait for them to shoot themselves in the foot and take advantage.

Amherst 14 Trinity 10
Having seen both Trinity and Amherst, I think that the defenses of both teams are outstanding.  The team speed of Trinity could be controlled by Amherst's defense, and the Amherst offense is capable of moving the ball on the ground, complemented by the big play offense that patfan mentioned.  Look for a lot of long drives and few turnovers, making this game close to the wire. 

Hamilton 3 Middlebury 21
Middlebury finally comes alive to salvage the end of the season.

Williams 35 Wesleyan 3
Should Wesleyan even bother showing up?


Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: WESTECH25 on November 04, 2005, 03:46:09 pm
I can't bring myself to look at the box score for Wesleyan's final two games. 

i've got williams winning it 45-6. 

the following week, i have trinity deciding to rest their starters because the NESCAC will pass  a rule that allows them to be eligible for this year's postseason tourney. 

Trinity plays the JV's and eeks out a 27-3 win. 

other games:

Trinity 21 Amherst 3. 
I don't think it will be as close as some you think.  Trinity controls the ball and wears down amherst's D by the 2nd half. 

Colby 13 Tufts 7
In a grind it out game Colby finds a way to pull it off at home.

Middlebury  35  Hamilton 13
Midds seem to be turning it on and I fully expect them to handle Hamilton.

Bowdoin 23 Bates 13
The polar bears win the tune up for colby.  Bates almost lost to the tech for the love of God!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trincoll on November 04, 2005, 04:02:27 pm
The BANtams defense is not getting enough respect on the board. They have put up outstanding numbers this season so far. Amherst will be shut down and might score a field goal. Turnovers will be in Trinitys favor as will rushing yards the key to Bantams victory will be field position and ball control.. And the fact that Amherst runds a 5 man line is not a problem. Priore has seen every defense imaginable and will have that oline ready. Their is one reason why Amherst wll not have any offense against Trinity and it is Mike Blair. Teams have been gameplaning around this kid since he was a sophmore they are more scared of him this year then ever. And it is not his numbers that make him so dominant it is how he improves the rest of the defense causing double teams on every play freeing trinitys fast linebakers. Prediction Mike Blair Nescac MVP
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trincoll on November 04, 2005, 04:11:32 pm
and someone said before Nescac lines cant compete with Springfield or other top D3 schools. This is true for many Nescac schools. But Mike Blair is 6'3'' 260 or 270 and their oline from last year has several 300+ hogs with the speed of Finkleday and Leo last year averaging 300 rushing yards a game we could of played with most D3 schools.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: TheLegend on November 04, 2005, 04:15:07 pm
All interesting points of view. On this weekend for Trinity/Amherst, let me make a few comments on some insider information I have. Now, all information excludes Wesleyan ... because they suck something terrible.

Other than the Wes game, amherst has only had 4 sacks in 5 games, not something to go bragging about. I'd say more than anything, amherst just plays sounds football. Hamilton put 139 yards on the ground against them. They just dont allow big plays. And just to be a stickler, Amherst doesnt run a 50 front, they run a 3-4, much like the bantams. A 50 is similar to what Williams runs. The only difference being the two outside "end"s are actually OLB's walked down. Thats just me being a stickler, sorry.

I'd also say there is one more thing to disccuss. In all, the head honcho's at Trinity are much better football coaches than any other in the league. Now, I'm not saying they teach technique any better, but their schemes are far more effective. For example, what is the most effective offensive formation to run the ball against an ODD front team? Double Tight end sets. How many run double tights? Tufts, and they didnt for some reason. I would expect, if nothing else, just a better game plan from Trinity than for Tufts.

And my source also tells me that Amherst, while well equiped with their respective starting 11, is shallow, or just prefers not to substitute. It is supposed to be 70 tommorow, this could also cause a problem.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on November 04, 2005, 05:29:36 pm
Legend, thanks for the info.....ur name says it all.  PatFan, I don't doubt that the Amherst QB is good, but I think Pitcher is the most underrated player in the NESCAC, he doesn't lose!  Amherst hasn't faced a Defense nearly as tough as Trin's and that might be a little scary for the QB, I know I would never want to be hit by Blair.  The Trinity D makes a big play every game, I think they will do it again this week.  Too much pride on the line for those seniors on the field.  They have already lost once and don't want to do it again now. 
Other picks....

Colby 21.....Tufts14......Home team wins it.
Middlebury 100.....Hamilton 10......no explanation needed.
Williams 200......Wesleyan -6......see above
Bowdoin 24.....Bates 14.....Solid Bowdoin team this year.

PatFan, I won't be at the game to see the Amherst QB, I hope he steps up and makes it a ball game, something the kids from Trin haven't seen in a while.  If they can keep it close, they might upset them.  The Bants haven't played in a close game lately and may have forgotten how....similar to the Soviets in 1980.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on November 04, 2005, 05:41:55 pm
Agreed about the Mike Blair comments...kid is a stud.  Also, my senior year we had from LT to RT: 6'3" 275, 6'5" 320, 6"2" 260, 6'3" 300, and 6'4" 280.  That is a pretty big line...who by the way were pretty athletic across the board.  I am nervous about tommorows game and was recalling the 2003 game @ Amherst, where a studly young man returned a punt that Amherst forgot to down, which basically salvaged the first 8-0 season.  Amherst plays very well at home...and they love to play the role of the upset.  I remember before the game in 2003 a player had left a pamphlet in our locker room, the Amherst coaches had written it....and it basically said something along the lines of loseing is an embarressment in front of your families, beating the un-beaten is the ultimate challenge, memories for a life time....etc....The only thing that did was fire us up more, so shame on them for leaving it in there, but the point is...they have a different mentality when the play big games...and that is unsettling.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: First6Ws on November 04, 2005, 08:08:02 pm
HEY ONE-THREE WHAT DAY IS IT?!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: nescacdad on November 04, 2005, 10:23:57 pm
Amherst has the number 1 rusher in NESCAC in Otieno.  They have the number 3 passer, and their D line averages 2 yards per carry against, the lowest in the NESCAC.  I'm definitely going up tomorrow to watch this game.  No flyers this year.  Don't need 'em. It will be a great contest.  With Trinity and Williams as opponents for the last two games, Amherst really knows how to cap off a season with two great games.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 05, 2005, 01:02:15 am
trincoll, blair could probably play 1-aa theres not doubt in my mind about that.  Trinitys oline is big but they dont look like sjfs, ithaca or springfields oline.  and size doesnt really mean anything.  At ithaca we played mansfield, this d2 PAC team whose oline averaged about 6-6 300 and we were up something like 35-0 at the end of the first quarter.  That oline stunk.  Sure they won 1 or 2 games in a good d2 penn conference but the size of their line didnt mean they were good.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on November 05, 2005, 01:41:34 am
utah, i totally agree with yourt general assesment that size doesnt necessarily mean being a good olineman.  i was a dlinemen and LOVED palying against those horrendously fat clowns because you knew exactly how they were gunna play.
as my crusty old coach said in higschool, "You can look like Tarzan, but play like Jane. I don't care if you look like Jane, as long as you play like Tarzan."

But Trinity's line the past 2 years has been DOMINANT and for good reason.  They have the best position coach in the conference, Chuck Priore and they play like tarzan.  I played dline all 4 years I was at Trin.  The only oline I faced my entire career that was comperable to Trins oline the past 2 years was Williams my sophmore year (2002 season).  They were good and they also had a guy that got serious looks from PRO teams (but didnt make it).  Am i sayin they could beat up on some fo the top d-III dilines, maybe probably not, but they were good, and we got a good young group comin up now
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on November 05, 2005, 05:08:52 am
Wait a very few hours and the answers to many of these questions and disagreements will become readily apparent!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on November 05, 2005, 07:27:21 am
First6:

"HEY NOW BANTS IT'S A LORD JEFF FRIDAY!"

(only it's actually Saturday, sorry I'm a little late)

dirty: I remember that game... what a heads up play!
Heading up to Amherst to watch the best NESCAC game of the season.

GO BANTS!!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on November 05, 2005, 09:38:31 am
Let us all not forget that Trinity spreads the ball around a ton and doens't let its players rack up statistics.  I don't think its a stretch to say that Trinity would lead the NESCAC in most individual stat categories if they decided to run up the score on teams in games that they know they are going to win before they even start.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on November 05, 2005, 01:59:56 pm
Great game happen at Pratt Field right now, Trin up 16-13
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on November 05, 2005, 03:44:51 pm
WOW! what a game.  ive never been so excited listening to the radio my whole life.  Hats off to Amherst, an amazing effort and they obviosly proved they are the 2nd best eamn in the NESCAC.  The only reason they lost in my opinion was lack of depth, good call whoever noted that earlier.  It sounded as if they just got worn down in the trenches.  Kehoe is obviously very good. 

Amherst is going tobe very dangerous the coming years as this freshman class of theres matures.  Obviusly the amherst staff went out with a purpose the past recruiting season.  Its games like these that stay in themind of a freshman that define their mentality the rest of their careers.  Hell of a game.  Bants proved they can win the close ones and really showed off their strengths.

OOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHH how I pity Wesh Tech.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on November 05, 2005, 05:00:35 pm
colby went into halftime down 9 but really came out and stuck it to tufts, cramming the ball down the jumbos throats and completely shutting them out second half. watch out bowdoin
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: nescac1 on November 05, 2005, 07:42:35 pm
I was in the area so I checked out the Trin-Amherst game.  Great game, two contrasting styles.  Pretty even except for the special teams, that and Trinity's d-line, which did eventually wear out the Amherst o-line, were the difference.

Amherst had a blocked extra point which led to a two point conversion for Trinity, and also missed a couple of gimme kicks, I think one field goal and one was either another extra point or field goal.  Also, Trinity scored one touchdown off of a fluke botched field goal, and got a huge play from the punter after a botched snap where he made the recovery and got off a monster punt.  Except for special teams, it was totally even.  Amherst's receivers were wide open all day, Trinity had one d-back in particular who just could not cover.  Trinity's d-line was dominant against the rush, Amherst could do nothing, and as the game wore on, they generated more and more pressure.  But when Kehoe had time to throw, the Trinity d-backs were very outmatched.  He is an outstanding pocket passer, with three very fast, capable receivers to throw to. 

Trinity's front seven is flat-out nasty.  Blair is as good as advertised, he made one paly in particular where he ran down from behind a speedy, small back and tackled him with one hand on a big play.  Amherst's RB's were just too small to deal with Trinity's size and strength.  All their d-lineman are big and very fast.  Best defensive line in NESCAC since Ethan Brooks was in the league.  But like I said, their secondary was torched all day.

ON the other side of the ball, Trinity was just bigger and more physical and patient.  They did nothing fancy, were very predictable and basically, except for one big play, allowed Amherst to put 8 and 9 in the box, but still were able to run.  Their backs are very strong runners, but except for Barnard, nohting spectacular.  Barnard has to be all league something, he was the biggest difference maker for Trinity on o, he will terrorize the league for two more year.  Amherst D played well, but Trinity dink and dimed them to death with the run.

Next week's Williams/Amherst game should be fantastic.  Williams has a better secondary than Trinity, and will lock down on Amherst's receivers better.  Then  again, Amherst will be able to run the ball against Williams' front seven, which is much smaller, less athletic, and less experienced than Trinity's.  Williams receivers and qb's, who are outstanding, against Amherst's d-backs, who are equally talented, will be a fantastic match-up.  Amherst is probably a little better than Williams on defense (particularly up front), the teams are even on offense, and Williams has stronger special teams, so it should be a war. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on November 05, 2005, 08:15:30 pm
Congrats to Trinity on another perfect season. Also, hats off to the Jeffs. I was very impressed with the way they played, especially Kehoe. I couldn't have been more wrong with my prediction of how the game would play out. My "close game" turned into a shoot-out, with Amherst scoring a very suprising 20 points and the Bantams failed to force a single turn-over. And though special teams did play a HUGE role in the game (missed fieldgoals, extra point block returned by Trin for 2 points, botched snaps that Trinity was able to recover from, etc.) the field position wasn't that important as most of the scoring happened on long plays.

I was actually more comfortable when Amherst had a short field to work with, because they only burned Trinity with big pass plays. The Jeffs had a 1st and goal from the 5 yard line after a turnover and came away with zero points.

The most important thing though is that Trin got the "W", #29 in a row and 500th victory in the history of the program.

former you said it best: All Josh Pitcher does is win football games. He came in off the bench again and bailed out the Bants for the second week in a row.

(5-0 this week with my picks)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on November 05, 2005, 08:31:36 pm
Trin8-0, I hope you realize that you are jinxing the Bants and because of what you post here, they are going to lose to Weseleyan.  I hope you have the heart to explain to those seniors why they had to lose to Weseleyan!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on November 05, 2005, 08:54:21 pm
well it seems it was as good as advertised...I wish I could have been there.  Michael Blair had .5 sacks..which ties him with the schools record...he should break it next week against westech and I am honored to be able to watch that happen.  Also, if trinity pitches a shutout they will hold the all time lowest scoring defense in NESCAC history...the record is 30...they have let up 29.  In addition..I would like to extend congrats to the Bants for another 8-0 season...as they will crush the cardinals at home next week while I am getting obliterated at one of the best tailgating scenes in the NESCAC!!!!!!!!!!  i LOVE MY BANTS!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: TheLegend on November 06, 2005, 12:25:38 pm
I was lucky enough to make it to the amherst/trinity game as well and must make a few onservations on the overall contest.

First of all, good gameplanning on both sides of the ball. Someone made a comment about Trinity's weak corner ... I wouldnt say weak, but he's a first year starter who really lacks the experiance and enough game knowledge in important situations to make big plays. Consequently, he let up some big plays. Now having said that, Amherst made some equally costly decisions ... not individually, but as a unit.

First, I have never seen a roster so inflated. For example, #14 was listed as 6'0"! He was 5'9" if I am being generous. And on the big TD pass, #2 was visibly hindered by cramps which was a big reason why there was no over coverage on the pass. Besdies that though, for a team with such a prolific run game, in the first stages of adversity they completely abandoned the run and went to the pass. Now, it worked for some big plays (which is what their offense lives on) but it hurt them in the long run. Defensivly they expected alot from their D-line and, in 65 or 70 weather, they just got run down. Some logisitical mistakes is what cost them and like I initially said ... two similar teams and the deciding would be the game plan.

I think our hats should go off to the three kahuna's at Trinity. Priore, Behrman, and Devanney just used good football sense and that ole Trinity know how to get the job done. Priore and the staff he selected are a cut above. It takes the Head Coach, the OC and the DC to be on the same page and in aggreance on everyhting to make a team work. I think its a special thing when you get hard working kids who make the most out of the opportunities they are afforded combined with a coaching staff that knows what it takes to win. The Trinity squad is a special group from top to bottom.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on November 06, 2005, 03:38:15 pm
Congrats to Trinity for an outstanding effort against a very good Amherst squad.....I'd be curious to hear from the former players/posters, which team you all feel over the past 3+ years that you've had your run, has been the most balanced/best (I hate that word) team?  After watching them for the past 4 years, I would say that this year's team is the culmination....obviously not taking anything away from previous teams......would like to hear your thoughts.....thx.   
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on November 06, 2005, 05:23:00 pm
I would say that this years team may be the most balanced in terms of having both an offense and a defense that could win a game. However, I would not say they are the best. The 2004 team had the most dominant offense in terms of scoring threats and obviously had an outstanding defense. While the 2003 team had the best defense of the three teams, whle the offense wasn't as dominating as the 2004 team.

Mariner you're right, the term "best" can be very diffiult to determine. I may be biased but I think if you went across the board, player for player there would be very few players that I would replace from the '03 team with players from the '04 or '05 teams. 

Another thing to keep in mind is that several players have played on all three of these teams or at least two of them. For instance, I'm sure Josh Pitcher and Mike Blair are better now than when they started in '03.

It's also difficult to compare them because the level of talent in the NESCAC has fluctuated. In talking with a few of the members of the Trinity coaching staff they believe the league isn't as strong as in '02 or '03 when Williams and Amherst had very good teams. However, there are more teams to contend with now with Bowdoin and Colby both being very good.

I'm going with '03 because of my own ego, but all three teams are incredibly talented and well coached. Hopefully the '06 Bantams can continue the tradition of dominance that these great teams have established.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on November 06, 2005, 05:39:42 pm
Mariner, you pose a question that, now that the current teams has all but acheived an 8-0 season, has been swirling around my head for awhile.

I graduated last year but I have listened to or watched every game this year and I feel I have a good sense of how the various teams stack up.  One must also take into consideration, of course, that the 2003 Bantams were starting or using heavily most of the senior starters of the 2004 season, also the the likes of Mike Blair, Olenoiski, and Big Play Mackay.  Point being turnover hasnt been that high at Trin so I will comment primarily on each teams group of seniors.

Lets get started. 

2003 Bantams: This was the first mold of players brought up who TOTALLY bought into Chuck Priore's system, altohugh the year before was basically there as well.  hell of a good group there too, except that sh**head QB Greg Ward (sorry, strong personal dislike of the guy here).   Anyway, this team was awesome and knew how to execute Chuck's offense to a tee, RUN RUN RUN.  With Tom Pierandre and a freshly converted Drew Finkleday in the backfield field the Bantams were a true force.  That 10-0 win over Williams was one of the most exciting in Trin history.  The offense struggled at times under the young arms of sophmores Josh Pitcher and Erik Paisley, but they didnt make too many mistakes.  The defense, in typical Trin form, was totally dominant lead by LB Greg Tanner, DE Jamie Creed, and CB Matt Glasz.  Leadership was tremendous for a team that wasnt in as big a limelight yet.

2004 Bantams:  The most PT experienced of the bunch across the board and the first FULL recruiting class of Chuck Priore.  One only has to look at the score of the games to realize how good this group was.  Closest game was won by 18 over Williams.  Also, while this current group may pointwise may be the best the number of points scored on the STARTING 2004 defense was 25**!  I was a defensive starter and I was extremely lucky to get more than one series in the 4th quarter.  Why? Because our offense had usually put up 31 points by the end of the 3rd quarter and Chuch has NEVER been one to run up the score (and all he wants to do is run and thus run out the clock), plus it has paid major dividends in term of getting youngins time.  Our offense was outstanding.  Drew Finkleday was backed up by Genarro Leo.  Josh Pitcher didnt throw a pick all season until one went right through the hands of an open tightend and into a defenders hand (**which set up one of the few touchdowns on the starters given a 20 yards field).  Chandler Barnard was already making a huge contribution as a Freshman.  The offensive line was DOMINANT.  A seasoned group of players with many 2-3 year starters, where 4 out of 5 made the all conference team.  Mind you, this group took full advantage of this years starters, many of whom started last year.

2005 Bantams:  Obviously this chapter isnt closed, but obviously this years Bantams can be in the argument about who is the best.  Like the previous years, an experienced group, but by far the least experienced of the three.  While some players are 2, 3, 4 year starter or contibutors, there are far more first year players, and a couple of very raw players.  The defense of this group is amazing.  It is full of playmakers but I think this past week exposed a weakness in the secondary (granted its just a couple of plays, but when stacking up against the previous two years, these details are big).  Another weakness relative to other teams, the offensive line.  They are very good, but the two previous years lines were truly spectacular.  I think this is the main reason why the offense has struggled at times this year.  The talent level of the skill players this year is off the charts, however. 

OK, I need to stop.  Obviously the 3 teams are elite squads so taking into consideration all my aforementioned comments lets break things down in a 1-3 order starting by position group and getting broader thereafter.

DEFENSE:
Dline: This is seriously the hardest ranking to do, and I was a dlineman
2003: 1st, when all starters are healthy :)
2004: 3rd  Truly a tie for 2nd among 2004 and 2005 in my mind but if imust....
2005: 2nd

Linebackers: 2003 and 2005 very close, both have different strengths
2003: 1st, when BEST players in
2004: 3rd, good but not as good as the same guys are next year
2005: 2nd, 2004s elite group gets even better

Secondary:
2003: 2nd Got burned occasionally
2004: 1st Goldsein, Quinn, Tyler, Soules - never burned (right?)
2005: 3rd Got burned occasionally

OFFENSE:
Oline: I am confident in this order
2003: 2nd
2004: 1st
2005: 3rd

QB: Very confident in this order
2003: 3rd
2004: 1st
2005: 2nd

Backfield: Quite confident in this
2003: 2nd, Pierandri, Finkleday
2004: 1st, Finkleday, Leo   it helps when you got the best oline
2005: 3rd, Quinnones, Leo, Barnard

INTANGIBLES: Very confident
2003: 1st
2004: 2nd
2005: 3rd

CHANCES TO DO WELL IN THE PLAYOFFS
2003: 3rd, Offense would have done nothing
2004: 1st, well blanced squad would have done well
2005: 2nd, hickups would have been costly in playoffs

STRENGTH OF SCHEDULE
2003: 1st Scrapped out some great and hard fought wins
2004: 3rd...But proved how much better they really were
2005: 2nd More challenge as the NESCAC improves slightly

SPECIAL TEAMS: TIE ACROSS BOARD
I know, cop out, but they have always been good.  As chuck says, "If your tired, you play special teams first and sit out on offense or defense."

Total scores (lower the better)
2003: 16
2004: 17
2005: 22

I am actually very suprised by this number.  I think it accurately reflects the strength of the teams.  The bottom line: they are all dominant hard working groups with tremndous leadership, work ethic, coaching, and PRIDE (so I hope oi havent offended anyone)

wow my fingers hurt.  and yes, i have nothing better to do this sunday afternoon

Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on November 06, 2005, 08:13:39 pm
Good weekend for the Bants....I'm disappointed with the NESCAC though.  No way that Tufts rookie receiver David Halas shouldn't have been Rookie of the Week.  4 catches for over 100 yards and 2 td's....c'mon.  Absolutely absurd!!!

Congrats to the Bants on the win.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on November 07, 2005, 12:42:38 am
now that the bantams have, for all intents and purposes, locked up 1st, all eyes are on brunswick as colby battles bowdoin for second place at 7-1 AND ownership of the CBB trophy. huge game with many, many implications for both teams
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: TheLegend on November 07, 2005, 07:58:14 am
the only people that actually care about the CBB are the ones involved in it. i'm in a bad mood. I see Bowdoin winning it. Colby might be apathetic over having missed a golden opportunity to be undefeated and simply want to get out of the season(?). I'm just playing devils advocate here. I see: Bowdoin over Colby, Amherst over Williams, Middlebury over Tufts, Hamilton over Bates, Trinity over Wesleyan, and some eggs over easy. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on November 07, 2005, 09:12:47 am
Legend: Don't be a hater... when is the last time the Colby-Bowdoin game actually meant something. Let's throw the CBB a bone and let them enjoy the fight for 2nd.

former: You're right, sounds like the NESCAC missed the boat on Halas.

huftsfarts: That was a VERY indepth, yet fair assessment. I don't know if the '05 Bantams are that far behind the 2 previous teams, but I agree the '03 team had the best combination of experienced leadership and young talent. However, this years team probably has the most depth at every position.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on November 07, 2005, 10:59:08 am
I believe the '03 team deserves special props for beating Williams for the first time in years.

Its always hard to get over those mental obstacles to beating teams.  '02 knocked off Amherst, but Williams was the big one and until you beat a team that has your number for the first time, it feels like it will never happen, even when you are confident going in.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on November 07, 2005, 04:57:54 pm
I hate to bring up the NESCAC (Trinity) in the national rankings issue again... but Trinity has 29 points and is tied with UW-Oshkosh in "others recieving votes" section. This puts them just 2 spots away from the D3 football.com top 25 poll. Unless I am mistaken this is the closest a NESCAC team has ever been to breaking into the top 25.

Also, Trinity is 2 spots away from being included into the AFCA (American Football Coaches Association) poll. Trinity has finished in the top 25 of this poll the past few years.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on November 07, 2005, 06:06:40 pm
wow, I am impressed by the indepth posts on previous Bantam squads...and I agree with them all.  I would have to say that Bant55 is on the money with his opinion.  Beating a team that has beaten you for the past 7 years is tough to do...and that alone is why the 2003 team was probably the best..it was the intangibles.  I am interested to see what Keith writes about this week...he was at the game saturday, so he should have a pretty good grasp of what Trinity is all about....When will he post?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on November 07, 2005, 07:59:38 pm
I usually get Keith's column on Thursday.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: First6Ws on November 07, 2005, 08:37:16 pm
It is true that Rooney is a huffer and that I don't have the patience to read that full an assessment of the strengths and weaknesses.  I think the 2004 team is the best.  Their games never seemed to be in doubt and the combo of Finkledey and Leo was truly overpowering.  2003 does deserve credit for getting the program over the hump to 8-0.  2002 was proud to beat Middlebury and Amherst, who the previous year's class went a combined 0-8 against.  Barring a huge upset next week at the "The World's Largest Little Outdoor Cocktail Party" (aka Trinity Homecoming), congrats to the 2005 group in surviving another season full of wearing the target.  Those seniors have had amazing careers.  Sadly, I'll miss the festivities next week because I'll be in Berkeley, CA cheering for the Golden Bears to end the only winning streak longer than Trinity's.  Go Bants!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on November 08, 2005, 08:42:37 am
The "largest little coacktail party in the world", You should get a copyright for that phrase.  Thanks Pat I will be looking forward to the column.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: PolarBearNation on November 08, 2005, 03:10:35 pm
Anyone else realize the final week of the season features a 2 v 3, 4 v 5, 6 v 7, 8 v 9 matchup this weekend with all games posting teams with identical records? should be an exciting end to the season...
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on November 08, 2005, 03:26:41 pm
I wonder if Trinity will be able to get themselves up for the 1 vs 10 match-up. This game will be about as exciting as watching the Field-Turf on Jesse-Miller Field grow.

You'd hope the Cards would be excited about the opportunity to pull off possibly the biggest upset in New England football history... but I have a feeling they're just looking to end their miserable season as soon as possible.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on November 08, 2005, 04:47:16 pm
I wouldn't be surprised if they would be looking past the game into the tailgate area where the rest of the Trin supporters will be. 
I just hope Trin's players aren't doing that and finish the year off the way they should. 
And I'll say it again, all Josh Pitcher does...is win football games.
Congrats to the rest of those seniors, one loss in four years is amazing.


PBN....good little tidbit.  About time a week came around without all blowouts before the games started.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on November 08, 2005, 05:33:00 pm
With that in mind...I believe Trin8-0 and I are tied for our weekly picks 30-5 for the year, while former is 29-6?  orrect me if I am wrong.  This weeks picks could determine the outcome of our little bracket.  My picks will be posted tomm or thursday afternoon.

Here is a definite prediction:  I take my one opportunity a year to relive the college life, and make the most out of it......I am so happy I did not go to any other of the lame NECAC schools....it just wouldnt be the same atmosphere......I know from experience. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on November 08, 2005, 07:47:49 pm
a school is only what you make of it. if you choose to suck, than your nescac experience will suck. however, if you try, i feel you could love any school in the nescac...except for maybe bates...
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Longtooth on November 08, 2005, 11:56:09 pm
Thinking about you Williams, Go Ephs.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: First6Ws on November 09, 2005, 05:20:47 am
PBN, very astute observation.  I'd imagine it's the best Colby-Bowdoin matchup in a while.  Another interesting standings note is the stark difference between the top half and bottom half of the league.  5-2 to 2-5, nobody breaks even this year
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on November 09, 2005, 11:55:33 am
weather update for saturday @ coop:  SUNNY, HIGH: 52, LOW 36

gunna be a great day for this years squad to go out on top, and for me to drink and eat way too much.  i hope the bants dont forget they still have ajob to do. 

just writing this post makes me thirsty.

Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on November 09, 2005, 01:26:17 pm
hufsfarts: I wouldn't call it a job, so much as a chore or an errand. I just hope the seniors enjoy their last game and have fun winning the 31st of their 32 collegiate games. Then come join us and enjoy the best tailgate in the NESCAC.

First6: You make a great point, and this year more than ever there is a clear seperation of the teams that can compete for a title and the teams that are content just to field a team.

I was expecting a little more excitement from the Williams/Amherst people concerning "The Biggest Little Game in America". Has the game lost some of its luster due to the fact that it hasn't had any impact on deciding the NESCAC title the past few years.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on November 09, 2005, 02:25:08 pm
Listen, Trinity could have half the team sleep through the first half..wake up..arive for the start of the 3rd quarter down 10-0 (thats all weslyan would score) and still win 85-10.  I really hope Bowdoin beats Colby, for all the hype at the beggining of the season they sure did not show it on the field.  Bowdoin on the other hand came out of nowhere and has made a huge impact in the league...who would have thought they could go 7-1 at the begining of the year?

Here are this weeks PICKS[/font]

Bates @ Hamilton  21-17 I just can not see Bates dropping
                                       this game.  They have a good pass
                                       rusher, and Hamiltons O-line stinks!

Herst @ Williams 24-14  The Lord Jeffs are very good, and
                                      the seniors will not go out with back-
                                      to-back losses to end their careers.

Midd @ Tufts 28-17  The Jumbos season is over, and
                                Middlebury has more pride than they
                                have shown.

Weslyan @ Trin 3-55  Trin completes another 8-0 season and
                                  30 wins in a row. Cards need to score
                                  3 so the 2003 bantams will keep their
                                  scoring record.

Colby @ Bowdoin 17-21 A close game, with alot riding on it. 
                                      The Polar Bears have homefield
                                      advantage and a shot at 7-1. I can
                                      not see them dropping this game to
                                      the overated Mules.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: nescac1 on November 09, 2005, 03:59:35 pm
re: Williams/Amherst.  No, folks are still excited.  I mean, the storyline is not as compelling as Amherst beating Williams to finally end its streak, or the two 7-0 teams battling in overtime, or the 48-46 Williams victory which is probably the best Nescac game of the last ten years, but there is still a ton riding on this game: Little 3 title, bragging rights, Whalen's first win against Amherst, Mills' first win on the road against Williams, etc.  Should be a very, very close match-up.  Amherst has looked a little stronger on defense and the teams are pretty even on offense, but that is balanced out by Williams' home field edge and it's edge in kicking and punting.  Both teams are confident going in.  Williams' QB's and WR's are all playing at a very high level.  And Williams has the best pass-protection in the league.  Williams, with its small backs and emphasis on pass-blocking, will have trouble running against the Amherst D which is very strong along the line.  But Williams should be able to get lots of yards through the air.  I think the key for Williams is ball protection.  If they throw 1 or fewer interceptions, they should bein very good shape, but if they throw a few picks, they could be in trouble.

As for Amherst, I think they will have to focus on running the ball and ball control.  Williams front four are not the strength of the team (only one senior) and have been pretty banged up the last few weeks.  Amherst has great running plays, fast backs, and a very solid line, they will likely look to control the ball on the ground and take a few chances for big plays deep.  I think for Amherst, if they average over 4 yards per carry and get at least two 40 plus yard completions, they will have a very good chance to win.

Prediction: Williams 24, Amherst 21.  Should be a barn-burner. 

I think Bowdoin is very, very luck to be 6 and 1.  Amherst dominated them in most phases of the game but turnovers killed Amherst.   I am happy for Bowdoin, but I think Colby will beat them by at least a touchdown. 

Congrats to Trinity on another undefeated season.  Will they go to Barnard and an option offense full-time next year?  Either way, they are still going to be tough to beat.  Other than Blair, Morgan, and Albrecht, no one they are graduating is among their most important players, it seems like, with the rest of the linemen on both sides of the ball and most of the skill guys (outside of two qb's who weren't asked to do much) returning.  Amherst and Williams could both be improved next year (both have almost all of their key skill guys back), but Trinity still has the most talent in the league returning. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on November 09, 2005, 06:57:36 pm
Does anyone know Pitcher's career stats?  Seems really efficient, though I never got to see him play.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on November 09, 2005, 07:36:45 pm
it makes no sense to me how people could say colby is overrated and they havent shown anything on the field. how can a team be 6-1 and be overrated? they dont blow people out by 50 like trinity (who hasnt done that in the second half of the season but probably will this week), they just win. they did lose to amherst, no excuses there, but to say colby hasnt shown anything is not giving a strong team its due.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on November 09, 2005, 08:01:32 pm
Cruiser wrote:
***it makes no sense to me how people could say colby is overrated and they havent shown anything on the field. how can a team be 6-1 and be overrated? they dont blow people out by 50 like trinity (who hasnt done that in the second half of the season but probably will this week), they just win. they did lose to amherst, no excuses there, but to say colby hasnt shown anything is not giving a strong team its due.***

I completely agree with Cruiser.  I was a senior on Trinity's 7-1 team in 2002.  Yes, it would have been great to be 8-0, but we tied for the best record.  The only team we crushed was really Hamilton, and we did beat Wesleyan pretty bad in the last game.  But Trinity had extremely tough games for the most part that year.  Very scrappy team that wasn't close to having as much talent as the powerhouses from the past few years have had.

I think that there is alot to be said for scrappy teams that fight tooth-and-nail and have to get pumped up for each game even though they already are emotionally and physically drained from playing 60 minute, close games the week before.

Winning close games, I think, is a talent in and of itself.  While it isn't talent in the same sense that speed and agility is talent, it takes nerve and composure in close games, which is another kind of talent.

I was on a team like that and its really tough to be out there for 45 running plays vs. Amherst after playing every down in a game with 75 (or 70-something) running plays vs. Middlebury.  Those games are tough man.  Much respect.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Ephs on November 09, 2005, 08:45:37 pm
I was expecting a little more excitement from the Williams/Amherst people concerning "The Biggest Little Game in America". Has the game lost some of its luster due to the fact that it hasn't had any impact on deciding the NESCAC title the past few years.

i wouldn't say it's lost its luster, not for the kids anyway. this is do or die for them. lots of excitement about this game, for sure. two very evenly matched teams, playing well towards the season's end. i expect to see a war this saturday.

congrats to you trin boys on another successful year. always enjoyed playing you guys and i'll see you next year in williamstown.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 09, 2005, 09:01:23 pm
Yea just because there are 34 Trinity Posters on d3football.com and only 1 Williams guy doesnt mean people wont be excited for the game.......
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on November 10, 2005, 08:45:25 am
I hope the bears win big
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Ephs1991 on November 10, 2005, 09:51:09 am
It might not show up here but there is still plenty of excitement for the Williams-Amherst game.  Like the earlier posters said this should be a very intense battle of two good teams.

Congratulations to Trinity, barring any unforeseen disasters against Wesleyan.

To all the Ephs out there, let's get this one against Amherst to get the momentum going into next season for Colby and Trinity, both in Williamstown in 2006.

Go Ephs!

Hopefully Bowdoin coach David Caputi can dust off the playbook from some of the old Williams-Amherst games when he was offensive coordinator.   Hoping the Polar Bears win big.

Bant551, I know what you mean about being on a scrappy team.  Nothing (except maybe beating Trinity in '89 and '90) was better than seeing the shocked faces of the  top ranked Jeffs after a 3-4 Williams team beat the crap out of them in 1987.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on November 10, 2005, 01:24:17 pm
Yea just because there are 34 Trinity Posters on d3football.com and only 1 Williams guy doesnt mean people wont be excited for the game.......

Johnny: I believe there are more than one Williams poster and more than a few from Amherst (even if all of them are Saul). I was just cusious how important the game is when only bragging rights are on the line.

Crusier, I completely agree with you. Why are people saying Colby is overrated? If anything they are not getting the respect they deserve. They are currently 6-1 yet ranked behind both Bowdoin and Amherst in the New England DIII football poll. I realize they lost to the Jeffs but Amherst does still have 2 loses to Colby's 1. The Mules have also done something this season that no one else has been able to do besides Trinity... beat Williams (however, Bowdoin didn't get the chance). I think they'll be playing this game with a big chip on their shoulder.

nescac1: If Trinity does decide to hitch their waggon to Trinity the offense will probably undergo a major overhaul. I don't think they'll go to an option offense, but they will definately incorporate much more bootleg and roll-out passes to feature his athleticism. Also, Kevin Quinn will be another big loss to the Bantam defense along with LB "Sugar" Ray Panza.

Next year could be the year Williams and/or Amherst knock off Trinity because of their returning talent. Williams probably has the best shot because it's always tough to win up there, where as the Jeffs have to travel to Hartford, where the Bants just don't lose. Hopefully all the experience the youthfull Bantams gained this year will be enough to carry on the streak.

dirty: Finally a week where we differ in our picks! I LOVE the road team this week (with one obvious exception).
former: Here's your chance.

FINAL PICKS

Bates  22
Hamilton  17

The Bobcats go on the road and win the Nobody Cares Bowl

Middlebury  14
Tufts  10

They may both be 2-5, but Middlebury is a much better team and will put the final touches on another classic Tufts late season collapse.

Williams  34
Amherst  31

Despite the recent history of visiting teams in this series the Ephs pull it out over an Amherst team that is still licking its wounds from their shot at knocking off Trinity. Williams has played great football starting in the 4th quarter of the Bates game. They win out and finish at a respectible 6-2.

Colby  21
Bowdoin 20

Another road win this week as the Mules end the Polar Bear's dream season on a sour note. Colby finishes at 7-1 and set up a great match-up in next years season opener at Trinity.

Trinity  45
Wesleyan  3

The only home team to get a win this week will completely dominate the game from start to finish. My only hope is that the Cards can eek out a field goal to preserve the 2003 Trinity defense scoring record. Congrats to the players and coaches for an outstanding season that has added to the most dominant run in NESCAC football history.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: First6Ws on November 10, 2005, 06:12:01 pm
cruiser, I'm on the same page as well.  Not sure if people were knocking Colby, but a one loss season is impressive, even without the Bants on the schedule.  That said, much respect to be won or lost this week againts the P Bears (I can't believe respect will be dished out for a win over Bowdoin, my how things have changed).  A Mules win would set the anticipation for the showdown in the Coop to open next season.   

Everyone should check out Keith's Around the Nation article by the way.  Thanks to Pat, Keith and d3football.com for giving some ink/credit to the snobs from New England
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on November 10, 2005, 09:34:32 pm
Well it all comes down to this weekend with the pics.  Thanks to you two for having different pics and going for the win, but that means I have to have one more upset you both don't have to win.

Trinity 42......Wes Tech 7.......The only way Wesleyan could pull out a W is if Trinity has jungle juice in their water jugs.
Bates 21.....Ham Tech 10......not much to say there.
Williams 14......Amherst 21......Williams did not impress me much, and the Herst seemed to give the Bants a real game.
Colby 28.....Bowdoin 14.....Is Van Wilder, I mean Stepka graduating this year or is he going for his PhD?
Middlebury 21......Tufts 24.....Tufts has to give me one this year.....ps....get the ball to Halas, the kid can play the game.

Trin, Dirty and the other fellow Bants:

Have a great time at homecoming, can't make it....got some games of my own this weekend.  Have a few for me and I hope to see you fools soon.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on November 11, 2005, 05:47:46 pm
It has been a great season of posting...I cant wait till tommorow.  In addition, thank you to Keith and Pat for finally giving Trinity an up close look.  I know it is one game and a different team from the last two seasons, but I am sure that if you had seen the 2003 and 2004 teams you would have been as equally impressed...if not more impressed.  Thank you.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: pbfan on November 11, 2005, 09:55:59 pm
               


                  GO BEARS
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on November 12, 2005, 06:44:55 pm
colby slaughters bowdoin 28-3. the CBB championship stays in waterville as colby locks up a 7-1 record and NESCAC runner up. congrats to trinity on an 8-0 finish (again) and all other teams competing this season
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Ephs1991 on November 12, 2005, 08:17:41 pm
Good job Ephs!  Hope it's a great night in Williamstown.  Carry that momentum right into next year.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: nescac1 on November 13, 2005, 08:00:45 am
Congrat to the Ephs, who really totally dominated Amherst after Amherst's opening drive.  The Ephs ran the best they have all year, the offensive line completely controlled the line of scrimmage.  Morrissey looked great, not sure why Williams did not unleash him sooner, but he and Weeks should be a nasty combo for the next few years.  Williams defense, until going into prevent mode late, was also pretty dominant.  Kehoe played very well, as did Amherst's receivers, but the difference was the Williams d-line, which surprisingly shut down the run game and pressured Kehoe the whole game.  Hannon was awesome for Amherst, but he could not do it alone, and Amherst's lack of a power running game -- both o-line and backs looked small -- really hurt them.  Fullmer played another great all-around game, hope the knee injury isn't too major and he can recover to full strength next year, but it looked pretty bad from the sidelines. 

I wish Williams could play Trinity again now as I think it would be a great game, the Williams offense is completely different than it was early in the season, they even tossed d-back Moffie into the mix and he made some big plays.  They have five receivers (including the sick tight end) who match up well against almost any Nescac d-backs, and all are back next year.  They lose a few stellar o-lineman from the best pass-blocking unit in the league, but all the skill guys are back and they have some big underclassmen ready to step up up-front.  Offense overall should be pretty even with this year's fine unit.  On defense, they should be stronger next year.  All but one of the front 7 returns, and they have a few young HUGE defensive tackles who played well against Amherst despite being only frosh and sophomores.  They lose some good d-backs, but Moffie and Poppe should be two of the top cover corners in the league next year (unless Poppe plays safety) and they always find good athletes to play safety, Batty in particular looks promising.  Trinity, watch out at Williams next year, if the weather is good enough to allow for a lot of passing, it could be a war.  Congrats to the Ephs on putting the Hurst in their place and to a great end to the season!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on November 13, 2005, 03:15:40 pm
***I wish Williams could play Trinity again now as I think it would be a great game, the Williams offense is completely different than it was early in the season, they even tossed d-back Moffie into the mix and he made some big plays.***

We were in the same situation my senior year at Trinity (2002).  We found our identity as a heady, tough team after the Williams loss when we beat Middlebury and Amherst.  We wished we had another shot.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on November 13, 2005, 03:53:48 pm
In college football there are no "do-overs". Williams football should be and forever will be known as inferior to Trinity football in 2005 - merely refer to the score between them!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on November 14, 2005, 10:58:24 am
How about the Bants getting some love from ESPN, #3 in Berman's Top 10 Plays of the Week. Congrats to the Bants on another perfect season and have a happy Festivus!

5-0 with my picks this week to finish the season 35-5 to become the NESCAC football picking WORLD CHAMPION!!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on November 14, 2005, 11:06:12 am
Finally read Kevin's article about the Trin-Amherst game (and touching on the NESCAC in general as well).

I wonder what Saul and TrinCantReedGood would have to say about Leo's take on the NESCAC and not participating in the playoffs.  Contrary to the picture that Saul painted of "the transfers who failed out of other schools", Leo said that he was happy the season ends after 8 games.  You see, Saul, as a double-major in Italian and Economics, he is thankful that there aren't more weeks in the season to distract from academics.  He said the reason he transferred was that he wasn't going to be able to do a double-major at Colgate.

Thats pretty impressive in a league where most teams, including Williams and Amherst, probably overwhelmingly wish they'd have a shot at the playoffs, especially during periods when those teams happen to dominate the league.  Its nice to hear that from someone who might be the best player on a powerhouse team... especially when the program is mericously smeared with baseless attacks... the sole purpose of which is to degrade a program as opposed to creating legitimate debate.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on November 14, 2005, 11:08:58 am
Great article by the way... sorry to hear about the travel mishaps!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: First6Ws on November 14, 2005, 04:57:23 pm
Happy Festivus!!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on November 14, 2005, 05:03:30 pm
bant551: Who speaks for Williams and Amherst? My quess (and it's only a guess) is that a majority of their football players would favor their participation in the playoffs; their Trustees and administrators - definitely not; and their student bodies marginally against.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on November 14, 2005, 05:34:41 pm
Frank:

Thats what I was saying.  As a former NESCAC football player, it is definitely my opinion that most players in the NESCAC - the vast majority - would want to have the chance to participate in playoff football.

The point of my post is that while most NESCACers (even those at the fancier schools that bring Saul and Bucci to their knees) would like to participate in the playoffs... the guy Leo, whom was smeared by Saul and Bucci without any sort of substantiation (other than to point out that Trinity is ranked lower than the other NESCAC schools - a kind of tired and well-known, yet irrelevant fact), happens to want to spend more time on his academics... which he needs as a double-major (the ability to double-major being a key reason for his transfer).

Unless, of course, Trinity changed everything for him... and he became such a dedicated student only after transferring to Trinity.  But that would... um... also undermine Saul and Bucci's argument!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on November 14, 2005, 07:17:18 pm
final new england football poll ends with 5 nescacs in the top 10:
1. trinity
2. colby
6. bowdoin
7. williams
9. amherst

good showing nescac
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on November 14, 2005, 08:10:12 pm
There is no person who has the foggiest notion about what the correct order should be, including the voters in this poll who are merely stabbing in the dark. What a farce!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 14, 2005, 08:11:12 pm
Yea I think right now Springfield would score 50 on Bowdoin.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on November 14, 2005, 08:18:48 pm
Trinity #1 looks good to me though.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on November 15, 2005, 05:28:26 pm
Joe Gardi. Head Coach at Hofstra, is officially retiring after the year.

Didn't someone mention that there was some chance that Priore would get a look?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on November 15, 2005, 06:30:04 pm
happy festivus to all!!!!!!! I just woke up after this past weekend...it was a good time.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on November 15, 2005, 07:02:29 pm
Would Hofstra be substantially more attractive to Priore than Trinity? If so, why?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 15, 2005, 07:04:14 pm
probably 25,000 to 50,000 more a year and a path to bigger football/more money.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on November 15, 2005, 07:30:12 pm
jonny: Despite our occasional disagreements, I have a good deal of respect for your information and judgment in applying it. My guess is that Priore is paid by Trinity $135,000/year plus or minus 20%. Can /would Hofstra top it by enough to cause Priore to move? My information is that Hofstra is a private institution with about 8000 undergraduates and 4000 graduate students and has an endowment of about $155 million -  not a great deal of wealth for a private institution its size. Your comments please.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 15, 2005, 07:40:06 pm
Im thinking he probably gets around 60,000 to 80,000 at Trinity as head coach, but I could be mistaken.

Hofstra plays in maybe the best 1-AA league in the country with maximum scholorships.  Definite national championship potential at Hofstra, and sucsess there might lead to a 1-a job if so desired.

Mark Whipple, former head coach at Umass went right to the qb coach of the pittsburgh steelers.

Kirk Ferenz, former Maine head coach went right to the Cleveland Browns oline job and then to Iowa head coach.

Tim Murphy, former Maine head coach got the Cincinnatti head job after Maine and is now successful at Harvard.

Buddy Teevens, former dartmouth head coach went right to head at Tulane, Stanford, o-cooridanater at florida under spurrier...

just a few northeast 1-aa head coaches I can think of off the top of my head.  I really dont know what the trinity head coach makes, I know it can vary a lot at those schools.  Some head coaches are assistant coaches in other sports, something that head coaches at a place like Ithaca is rare.  A full time coach gets paid to coach football full time........nescac schools are sometimes different.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trincoll on November 15, 2005, 07:53:10 pm
I do not think Priore will leave until the perfect job opens. I believe he does make around $120,000 a year. Why would he want to leave until the right job opens when it looks like he can continue the streak. And doesnt his age play into the scenario.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on November 15, 2005, 08:16:16 pm
I do not think Priore will leave until the perfect job opens. I believe he does make around $120,000 a year. Why would he want to leave until the right job opens when it looks like he can continue the streak. And doesnt his age play into the scenario.

According to Trinity's submission to the Dep' t of Education, the average salary for a head coach (men's teams only) is $71,000 (salaries are calculated on a "full time equivalent" basis to take into account part time head coaches). I doubt that Priore makes $50,000 more than the Trinity average. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on November 15, 2005, 08:48:54 pm
Speedy:

That all depends on a number of factors.  Some sports may be held in higher esteem.  For instance, for whatever reason, Trinity is extremely big on squash and actually has the best teams in the country year after year - from any division (they are actually D-I in squash somehow).

I'm assuming that those coaches (men's and women's squash) earn alot more than most other coaches there, regardless of tenure.

Also, does that average salary factor in sports like Rugby, which aren't really considered to be affiliated with the school (are they even officially affiliated with the school at all anyway)?

Hard to figure that out without a verifiable source.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 15, 2005, 09:06:07 pm
If the Trinity Squash coach makes more than 25,000 a year, I will go to 3 trinity squash games this year and cheer them on.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on November 15, 2005, 11:16:41 pm
Speedy:

 . . .
Also, does that average salary factor in sports like Rugby, which aren't really considered to be affiliated with the school (are they even officially affiliated with the school at all anyway)?

Hard to figure that out without a verifiable source.

This data does not include club coach data. And it does not need to be verified unless you think that the Trinity AD would submit false data! (This salary info was submitted by Trinity to the Dep't of Education in connection with Title IX compliance and it wouldn't be prudent for Trinity to do anything other than submit the correct numbers).  The data is adjusted to take into account part time employment -- if the hockey coach works only half time and is paid $40,000 that would be treated as equivalent to $80,000 and so on.

There are other coaches besides Priore who have stature and a longer tenure at Trinity so I doubt that Priore's salary is significantly out of the $71,000 range.

Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on November 16, 2005, 12:08:06 am
I think it is higher than that.

But regardless, Johnny Utah is going to be watching some squash this year I think.  There is no way on God's green earth that the Squash coaches make even close to as little as $25,000 per year.  Not a chance.

They are probably on the higher end as far as coach's salaries go.  And dare I say that 25K is NOT at the high end!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 16, 2005, 07:00:29 am
In all seriousness, even though the Trinity squash program might be the best in the country, it still isnt even an ncaa sport and I doubt the athletic administration even pays the coach a full salary or even a part time saalary.  I would bet he makes $7,000-15,000 at the most.  Im pretty sure the MIT squash coach makes less than 10,000.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on November 16, 2005, 08:02:25 am
The Squash coach absolutely makes more than $25,000.  He is also the men's Tennis coach at Trinity.  I have heard from some pretty reliable sources that both Priore and Assaiante (Squash) make well over $100K. 
But I don't think we need to discuss this on here.  If Priore wants the challenge, he will leave...I think it's as simple as that.  He'll stay if he thinks Trinity will be more of a challenge to continue winning.  In my opinion at least.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on November 16, 2005, 11:57:20 am
The Squash coach absolutely makes more than $25,000.  He is also the men's Tennis coach at Trinity.  I have heard from some pretty reliable sources that both Priore and Assaiante (Squash) make well over $100K. 
But I don't think we need to discuss this on here.  If Priore wants the challenge, he will leave...I think it's as simple as that.  He'll stay if he thinks Trinity will be more of a challenge to continue winning.  In my opinion at least.

Ok, I didnt know he coached other sports.  But I guarentee if that guy left and a squash coach opening opened next year, it would be for about 10,000.

The way nescac salaries usually works is based on tenure or coaches that can coach other sports.  I would think a guy like Farley at Williams was making around 100,000 a year.  Dick Whitmore at Colby might be around the same.  The salaries are usally based on time served at the college and other college assignments that these guys usually have.

Theres no way a squash coach at any school is just going to coach squash and make over 25,000 a year from just coaching squash.  Even if the guy stays just coaching squash for more than 40 years, hes not making 100,000 just coaching squash. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on November 16, 2005, 12:43:48 pm
***The Bantams capped off another undefeated (17-0) season by winning the College Men's Squash Association National Team Championship with a 7-2 win over Harvard in the finals on Sunday. It was their seventh straight national title. Trinity's win streak is the longest in NCAA history. Squash is the only Division I sport at the Hartford school, which competes in Division III in all other sports. ***
-http://hartfordadvocate.com/gbase/Lifestyle/content?oid=oid:102188

***The Trinity roster reads like a United Nations of squash. No fewer than six countries in addition to the United States are represented on the Bantams. Being a coach with national connections, Assaiante is able to see the top players in the world up close and personal and recruit during his travels.***

I think that Squash is, in fact, an NCAA sport.  The men's squash coach is probably the highest-paid squash coach in the nation (for whatever thats worth).  He coaches the United States team in the World Championship and recruits mostly from foreign countries.

I have heard that Trinity's squash facility is the best such facility in North America and (this is very surprising to me, by the way) apparently they average around 2,000 spectators per match (I don't know how that is possible).

I think that if all he coached was squash, he'd still be getting paid much more than 25K.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Knightstalker on November 16, 2005, 01:36:59 pm
According to the NCAA website they only sponser Womens Squash as an emerging sport.  The estimated cost of a squash program is 15K including coachs salary.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on November 16, 2005, 01:40:27 pm
Can we please not talk about squash anymore? And by the way it is not an NCAA sport.

I belive Priore makes right around 100k. I think the Hofstra job would be something he'd be interested in because he would get a little bit more money, have the ability to get scholarship recruits and would like to finish his career on long island (as he is a NY guy).

Though I hope he decides to stay, this may be the year the streak ends. The Bants play a very good Colby team week 1 then have to play at Williams. They'll probably get past the Mules because Trinity simply doesn't lose at home. However, that game at Williams will be HUGE.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on November 16, 2005, 02:32:45 pm
The streak might end next year, but I remember guys saying that the past 2 years now.  Next season is a long way away, and Trinity always seems to reload for the next year.  Way too early to tell anything about next year besides the schedule I guess.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on November 17, 2005, 10:07:25 am
Rumor has it that the HC, OC and DC have been fired at Hamilton, all with time remaining on their contracts. It has been my perception that firing of NESCAC coaches does not occur merely for losing, but perhaps there are now new rules to that game.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: nescac1 on November 18, 2005, 07:16:02 am
All league came out.  For some reason, no rookies of the year this year.  Players of the year on offense and defense were both no-brainers, clearly the top talents in Nescac this season.

QB picks are interesting, Kehoe and Smith are solid, but not sure they (in particular Smith) deserved it over Gleeson/Lucey and Leclerc.  Usually the coaches reward seniors, so I am surprised Leclerc didn't at least get second team after putting up fairly big numbers and winning with basically no running game to help him.  I guess Gleeson and Lucey were hurt by sharing snaps, I thought they might share second team honors but oh well -- of course Pitcher could make the same complaint, although he was far less important to his team's success than the Williams QB's.  One thing is clear -- NESCAC has an awesome group of senior QB's coming back next year with Kehoe, Smith, Gleeson, Lyon, and Canter. 

Otherwise, no big surprises.  Barnard definitely deserved to be honored as an RB, I might even take him over Leo.  Bowdoin and Colby both lose a lot of seniors from the all-conference team.  Trinity, Amherst, and Williams all lose some strong defensive players who made all-league, but all return most of their top offensive guns.  Could be some great shoot-outs in store between those three teams next year. 

Congrats to the Ephs Jon Pritchard, only sophomore on the first team, and to Brendan Fullmer for first team honors at two positions ...
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: First6Ws on November 21, 2005, 05:19:07 pm
Congrats to the All-Nescac team.  The Bants got their fair share on defense and rightfully so.  Offensively, they have too many weapons for a lot of them to get the attention they might if they played elsewhere

I can say with total seriousness that I used to frequently attend Trinity squash matches and 2,000 in attendance is believable.  People would sit on the rafters and draw up ESPN style signs if it was a big match against Princeton or Harvard (not sure why since I don't think they were ever televised, maybe once or twice on the Ocho).  I recommend a stop in if anyone is in the Hartford area on a dull winter Saturday because as the PGA would say "These Guys are Good"
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on November 21, 2005, 09:48:31 pm
congratulations to trinity on its squash dominance. that said, i couldnt care less about squash. thts why this is a football board...
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on November 21, 2005, 10:18:09 pm
Cruiser, your attitude reflects that of most Trinity students when first hearing about the "Evil Empire" of squash.  But as First6 said, if you have a chance to check them out, you'd be surprised...I certainly was.
And as you suggested, back to football.  Much congratulations to the Bants once again showing Trinity can dominate in more than just squash.
Be interesting to see who fills in the holes left by this year's graduating class.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Roonyhufsfarts on November 21, 2005, 11:01:31 pm
Former, it will be interesting.  This next senior class has never lost so hopefully they wont get to complacient.  They are gunna be good, however, as will many other teams in the NESCAC. 

I am very happy that the NESCAC in general seems to be getting better.  Williams, Herst, and Colby will all field good experienced squads next year and hopefully bowdoin can maintain its strength.  Wesleyan appears to have self-administered a death penalty style halt on all football related recruiting.  That is truly sad, when I was a freshman, Wes was 5-3....what a shame.  Based upon  the attitude of the wes players that i saw playing against trinity and the comments made by some players to the trin players, they are a sad bunch.  despite the fact that i really feel bad for them (in the worst sense), they shouldnt feel sorry about themseleves....they suck, and its there own damn fault.  I just think it is too bad Trin has to finish out the season to our "rival" with all but an assured victory.  Bates? what are you guys doing? did they beat anyone else besides wes tech.

congrats to the bants all conference players.  josh pitcher is the Tom Brady of the NESCAC and its a real shame he didnt make the team (schweitzer = bledsoe??)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on November 21, 2005, 11:15:17 pm
formerbant: There is a big distinction between Trinity's domination in squash and in football. Trinity plays squash against the best collegiate squash teams in North America and football solely against an incestuous and small in number group of American colleges of questionable football quality within the lowest or at best second lowest collegiate football tier (out of 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 tiers depending how one defines a tier). More to the point - there are about 700 four year colleges playing American football; in terms of quality the 2005 Trinity team lies somewhere between 300th and 600th.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on November 22, 2005, 08:28:16 am
I agree with you on where Trinity stands in the grand scheme of football, but it really is better to not even rank them b/c there is no way of knowing really where they would fall.  And yes squash does beat the best of the best.  But it's pretty nice to have two teams that don't really lose anymore.  Football the last 3 years and squash the last 6 or 7...I've lost count.  I'm not saying the football team is equal to the squash team, just that we Bants are proud of both...thats all.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on November 22, 2005, 05:42:32 pm
Trinity plays squash against the best collegiate squash teams in North America and football solely against an incestuous and small in number group of American colleges.

While this is true... you have to keep in mind that there are only around 20 MAYBE 30 schools who compete intercollegiately in squash. So while the football team's 30 game win streak may not be as impressive because they only play the same 9 teams, you could also say that the squash team's 100+ win streak isn't all that impressive either considering they're only beating the same 15-20 teams every year.

Having said that, I agree with Cruiser. Less squash more football.

hufsfarts: I am very excited to see what next years Bantams can do... especially if Priore does decide to leave. There will be more than a few teams that could knock off Trinity next season. Having both Colby and Amherst at home will help, but watch out for a very tough game on the road at Williams.

I agree Pitcher is a lot like Tom Brady. However, not the Brady who has become famous in New England, but rather the Tom Brady at the University of Michigan. He was the best QB at UM but was brushed aside because of the highly touted, big name blue-chipper Drew Henson(Schweitzer). Everyone wanted to see Henson in the game so they could see how could he could be... however, when the games were on the line the coaches put in Brady (the better, more efficent quarterback) to WIN THE GAME. He, like Pitcher proved how good they could be. Brady won the Rose Bowl, Pitcher won his 4th consecutive NESCAC Championship.

Congrats to the All-NESCACers.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Knightstalker on November 23, 2005, 11:19:33 am

Quote

While this is true... you have to keep in mind that there are only around 20 MAYBE 30 schools who compete intercollegiately in squash. So while the football team's 30 game win streak may not be as impressive because they only play the same 9 teams, you could also say that the squash team's 100+ win streak isn't all that impressive either considering they're only beating the same 15-20 teams every year.

Quote

And the majority of them are in New England.  When you talk about Trinity's squash team are you talking about the men or the women.  The NCAA only sanctions womens squash.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on November 23, 2005, 04:09:43 pm
We've been talking about the men's squash team.  The women's team hasn't won a title in the last two years...pretty disappointing for those girls.  The men's team has won the last 7 titles....and we know they aren't NCAA titles, but they are the best in the country.

Is there some title IX issue that the NCAA will sponsor women's but not men's squash...that seems unfair.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on November 29, 2005, 07:43:54 pm
I don't think Title IX applies to having a men's team for every woman's team (or vice-versa).  Otherwise, we'd have "fairness" arguments about not funding a women's football team, etc.

I think it is either equal number of teams or equal funding for men's and women's sports.  I think its one of those, but I don't know enough about it.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on November 29, 2005, 09:35:54 pm
congrats to michael blair of trinity, eric ludwig of williams and dan oliphant of colby for their selections to the 2005 aztec bowl team. what better way for the nescac to announce its presence (again) than by sending multiple players to an important dIII all star game such as the aztec bowl. congrats again
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Knightstalker on November 29, 2005, 09:47:17 pm
Squash and Bowling are conditional NCAA womens sports, they are used so that schools can meet title IX requirements.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on November 29, 2005, 10:05:00 pm
Good point/thought Knighstalker.  That makes a lot of sense.  I can see how that works.

Anyway, the CSTV special about "the streak" can be found on Trinity Football's website, www.trincoll.edu/athletics .  I started watching it but my computer sucks so I gave up.  Maybe another time.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on November 30, 2005, 12:20:28 am
That's great for the NESCAC guys going to the Aztec Bowl.  Must be nice to spend a week in the sun playing football. 

Knightstalker, thanks for the info.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on December 05, 2005, 03:08:58 pm
Considering all the talk on this board about academics in regard to the football programs, here is something that flew under the radar.

2005 NESCAC All-Academic selections for football:

Amherst:
Will Beeson
Joe Bickerstaffe
Justin Macione
Matt Mascioli
Nate Riccardi

Bates:
Anthony Arger

Bowdoin:
Dylan Brix
Steve Curwen
Dave Diamond
Jay Tansey

Colby:
Mike Bracco
Dave Civitello
Jon Forsythe
Dan Giuliani
Rob Jacobs
Mike Poplaski

Middlebury:
Ed Allen
Steve Hauschka
Stefan Hrdina
Matt Morrissey
Kevin Ryan
Scott Secor
Jamie Staples

Trinity:
Carlos Baz
Tim Coughlin
Kevin Swiniarski

Tufts:
Patrick Magoon
Mike McCann

Wesleyan:
David Lucier
Joe Pepe
Rob Weinstock

Williams:
Ryan Scannel


Congrats to Middlebury, with 7 players selected. Also, Colby with 6, Amherst 5, Bowdoin with 4, Trinity and Wesleyan 3 each. Tufts had 2, while Bates and Williams 1, and Hamilton with zero representatives.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on December 05, 2005, 07:08:41 pm
Good job, Trin!  Just wondering how many of those players listed were starters/major contributors for their teams?  I know for Tufts that both Magoon and McCann were defensive starters all year & were the 3rd & 4th leading tacklers respectively.

Regardless, all listed should be proud of their achievement, given the enormous amount of time they need to devote to the sport while balancing that with the books.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on December 06, 2005, 08:50:33 am
Requirements to be an All-Academic Selection. (Taken from the NESCAC website)

To be honored, a student-athlete must have reached junior academic standing and be a varsity letter winner with a cumulative grade point average of at least 3.35. A transfer student must have completed one year of study at the institution.


Two of Trinity's All-Academic selections, Kevin Swiniarski and Tim Coughlin, were not only starters, but also were named to the NESCAC All-Conference teams.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on December 06, 2005, 07:41:22 pm
Trinity — Coach Paul Assaiante’s men’s squash team, which owns a record of 125-0 since the 1998-99 season, with seven national intercollegiate titles, is ranked No. 1 in the initial College Squash Association poll.


This is from todays Boston Herald.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on December 07, 2005, 03:59:04 pm
Utah, this might be the year the Squash teams sees a defeat, but I'd still count on them to win the whole thing. 

The big question is whether or not Priore is staying for next year.  What else does he have to prove?  What would happen if they did lose a game next year?  Is trying to win every game realistic for the 4th year? 

Like MJ the first and second time, he retired on top of the game.  Might be time for Priore to make a move....but I'd love to see him stay for as long as possible.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on December 08, 2005, 09:49:38 am
I've talked to a few people close to the Trinity football program regarding Priore and the possibility of him leaving for another job. So far there has been no indication that he is pursuing other places. However, some feel that he is ready to move on. If this does happen I wonder if Trinity would replace him with someone from the current staff or look elsewhere. The most likely candidate from among the assistant coaches would be defensive coordinator Jeff Devanney, a '93 Trinty grad.

I was also talking to a friend who coaches at Wesleyan who said he has been losing recruits left and right to Trinity. The most frustrating part is that they're even losing their most talented wide recievers. If anything, WR are the one position Wes Tech should be able to recruit with their pass-happy offense. I guess the prospect of being named NESCAC offensive player of the week while winning 0-2 games a year isn't as appealing as winning a championship despite only catching 1-4 passes a game.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Reno Hightower on December 09, 2005, 11:18:06 am
Priore going to Stony Brook.....
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on December 09, 2005, 01:55:16 pm
Congrats to the NESCACers who made the D3football.com All-East Region teams:

1st Team:

Michael Blair- DT, Trinity

2nd Team:

Roddy Ames- TE, Colby

3rd Team:

Brian Dubiel- G, Trinity
Ryan Smith- C, Amherst
L.J. Spinnato- DT, Amherst
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on December 09, 2005, 04:00:27 pm
Reno: Stony Brook would be a curious destination for Priore. But maybe you're putting us on. My crude guess is that Trinity would have beaten Stony Brook in 2005.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on December 09, 2005, 06:29:07 pm
"Reno: Stony Brook would be a curious destination for Priore. But maybe you're putting us on. My crude guess is that Trinity would have beaten Stony Brook in 2005."

Based upon the players from my high school team that the Stonybrook assistant coach requested one-on-one interviews with, I don't think that statement is THAT ridiculous.  Two of us ended up at Trinity and a few of the kids he talked to were not anything special and didn't end up playing football.  I know he was just an assistant, but he seemed to be recruiting guys that were not much more than NESCAC players pretty hard for a I-AA school (or whatever higher division they are in).  Kind of telling us that we could play there (yes, I realize that alot of coaches just say that bs to get decent players to come to their school and round out the practice squad, especially when there isn't such a small player limit like in the NESCAC).  I guess its also possible that they sucked back then but the present coach turned things around or something.

Aren't they in a higher division too?  I thought Hofstra played against them... and the final score was like 55-0.  Obviously Trinity would not do any better against Hofstra but I'm not sure how much better Stony Brook is.  Does anybody know what level they play at?  I just checked and it says they won their league this year and that their coach was named coach of the year.  I recognized some of the names of the kids that played there over the past few years (meaning the rosters from about 2004 back to 1999) that I played against in high school and they were decent players, but not necessarily good enough to guarantee that they'd be great NESCAC players (again, I'm only referring to the kids I know anything about at all).

I guess the guy Kornhauser is old or something... is there word he is retiring?  One thing I've heard is that Joe Gardi might be leaving Hofstra (I don't know, he may have already).  I'll try and find out.  I should know!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on December 09, 2005, 07:59:34 pm
bant: Stony Brook plays in the Northeast Conference (DIAA) with Albany, Monmouth, etc. It appears to be a non-scholarship conference. My statement about Trinity beating Stony Brook was not intended to be outrageous.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on December 10, 2005, 02:42:13 am
Yeah I wasn't sure.  I don't know enough about it.  All I know is that I was recruited by Stony Brook and I didn't play at Trinity until my senior year.  Except for a little bit until I kept screwing up my junior year.

Thats why I didn't think you were being outrageous.  I wonder what would happen in that type of game though.  I would be imagine it would be embarassing for a I-AA school, with or without scholarships to lose to a D-3 school.  I think Trinty JV beat or tied a JV team from Conn that tied for the division this year with Stony Brook.  That is my only basis of comparison.   Apparently they (Cent Conn or something) had an actual JV team (the Trin JV squad, in an average year, as you might imagine, was an embarassment).

Its just weird when you think that Stony Brook played Hofstra... and the different levels that Hofstra and Trinty are on... though I guess Trinity might be able to find the way to lose to a school like that by about only 60 points if Hofstra has the ability to stay in a game with a school like Marshall for most of a game (2 years ago).

But daisy chains have proven breakable.  I remember one year reading in Sports Illustrated, if you went by this "this team beat this team, and this team actually beat this team" formula, some I-AA team that upset a I-A team, which upset a better I-A team, etc., would apparently have "been able to have beaten the #1 team".  Obviously, the article was written in jest (and this required a one-loss #1 team).

It would be interesting.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on December 10, 2005, 06:56:48 am
I do know that Monmouth, also in the NEC, will start giving football scholarships next year.  I would assume that would be league-wide?  Don't know that for a fact.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on December 10, 2005, 07:23:12 am
bant and mariner: When you check the records, you will find occasions (possibly as frequently as every year) where strong DIII teams have beaten weak DIA non- scholarship teams. A few years ago (possibly in 2001) I watched Iona play Siena (before Siena dropped football) - both then DIA non-scholarship - and thought that neither of those two teams were as good as the top of NESCAC.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on December 10, 2005, 07:45:36 am
Rudi Smith, 81, past President of Williams Sideline Quarterback Club and a current Director, slipped away peacefully Monday evening or Tuesday after a day of skiing and very possibly while watching Monday Night Football. What a way to go! A service will occur this morning at 11:00 in Bennington. If you are interested in more, see the Thursday obits for the Bennington Banner.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on December 10, 2005, 12:15:47 pm
Condolences to Smith's family.

Frank, not a terrible way to go is right.

Priore is officially gone.  New head coach at Stony Brook.  Jeff Devanney named new head coach for the Bants.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on December 10, 2005, 09:49:47 pm
Priore must be a confident risk taker. He could have served out his days at Trinity - not bad duty. But he chose to go to Stony Brook - as far as I can see, an institution with no winning tradition. I believe Stony Brook has now committed to a scholarship  program - which, if true, probably means more benefit to Priore than his staying at Trinity would, provided that he wins at Stony Brook; if he loses, then after a relatively short while he will probably be fired at Stony Brook - in which case it will be difficult for him to find something as good as HFC at Trinity.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: union89 on December 11, 2005, 01:52:07 am
Priore is a class act and, in my opinion will resurrect the Stony Brook program.....he grew up on L.I. which I'm sure was a huge draw for him.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on December 11, 2005, 12:45:47 pm
I think he will be fine there.  I also think his coaching abilities and work ethic were probably better suited for a higher level.  Thats why I think he was so wildly successful at Trinity, as opposed to what some people say about him.  Having played for him on the offensive line (a coaching gig he will never give up no matter where he is or whether he is head coach or not), I know how great a football mind he has.  He is THAT GOOD when it comes to coaching the o-line and I actually think that is the biggest key to the offensive success of his teams (eventually getting kids to learn the zone blocking scheme which, in time, can adapt to almost anything a defense throws at you, while they are doing it).  For this to be successful, the running backs have to learn it as well... and he has been able to get them to do that too.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on December 11, 2005, 04:36:36 pm
He probably wont win at stonybrook, but that is a kind of job that is hard to turn down.  From there, he has head coaching expereince at a higher level, which is a stepping stone to other jobs in the future..i.e, d/o coordinator at a good 1-aa school or a posisition coach at a d1 school.

I dont think there is anyway he can compete at a national level at stonybrook, but he must be looking for something higher up. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on December 11, 2005, 04:59:25 pm
I'm sure that he deeply believes that he will succeed and rather quickly so that he can move on to greater things. However, if he fails, he probably will have stalled his career or worse.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on December 11, 2005, 05:20:39 pm
I'm sure that he deeply believes that he will succeed and rather quickly so that he can move on to greater things. However, if he fails, he probably will have stalled his career or worse.

Dont know Frank, to me its kind of like Temple Football.  Does anyone take that jbb thinking they are going to win?  I guess theres only one place to go there though and thats up, but I dont think they can ever win.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on December 11, 2005, 05:38:01 pm
jonny: My quess is (but I don't know) that upon taking the Temple job many of those coaches suffer under the grossly overconfident and much mistaken belief that they will be so good and/or lucky as to be the exception to the rule. Such is the nature of type A individuals who have a recent history of success.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on December 11, 2005, 06:30:28 pm
I wouldn't say that not winning their will stall his career....but there is a chance.  Dead end jobs can do that to people.  But I don't think they'll be looking for someone new if Stonybrook doesn't go undefeated next year.  He'll definitely have a few years to get in his recruits and teach his way of playing.  Good chance of some growing pains next season, but by season #3...I'd be surprised if there wasn't some drastic improvement.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on December 11, 2005, 06:40:41 pm
I wouldn't say that not winning their will stall his career....but there is a chance.  Dead end jobs can do that to people.  But I don't think they'll be looking for someone new if Stonybrook doesn't go undefeated next year.  He'll definitely have a few years to get in his recruits and teach his way of playing.  Good chance of some growing pains next season, but by season #3...I'd be surprised if there wasn't some drastic improvement.

Yea, I agree.  Very tough school to get players to go to though.  That school is in kind of a 1-aa no-where land.  No hope for the playoffs, no tradition, no big rivalries.  I hear they do have good facilities though and a new stadium thats pretty big.  The old head coach was a big special teams guy, and did a decent job getting the program some good facilities.

A job like this though will give Priore experience doing things he couldnt do at trinity.  Recruit scholarship athletes, run larger facilities, handle more travel and scheduling responsibiliies, coach more players etc. 

Its the experience more than the wins and losses that might help Priore.  Of course, a great stonybrook team next year might put Priore into the big picture more.  I highly doubt stonybrook can win or produce nationally though in the next 10 years with any coach.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on December 11, 2005, 07:52:17 pm
30 scholarships coming (they were non-scholarship which is why many of us accurately stated it would not be absurd to imagine a D-3 team beating them), taking over a team that won its conference (no matter how crappy the conference is), etc....

Not the WORST situation in the world.  Plus, people with football brains will understand if he loses to full I-AA scholarship schools like Hostra anyway.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: union89 on December 11, 2005, 08:50:40 pm
I think he will be fine there. I also think his coaching abilities and work ethic were probably better suited for a higher level. Thats why I think he was so wildly successful at Trinity, as opposed to what some people say about him. Having played for him on the offensive line (a coaching gig he will never give up no matter where he is or whether he is head coach or not), I know how great a football mind he has. He is THAT GOOD when it comes to coaching the o-line and I actually think that is the biggest key to the offensive success of his teams (eventually getting kids to learn the zone blocking scheme which, in time, can adapt to almost anything a defense throws at you, while they are doing it). For this to be successful, the running backs have to learn it as well... and he has been able to get them to do that too.

Couldn't agree more....

At Union, the o-line struggled a bit and Priore moved in and turned us into a Stagg Bowl team.  If anyone can turn that program around, it's Priore.  Keep in mind, he's a Long Island guy and this is where he wants to be now.......I'll put my $$$ on Priore turning this program into a playoff team in the next 5 years.  He's a fantastic coach and one of the most charasmatic guys I've ever met which will translate well to recruiting.....I'll be following Stony Brook and rooting for thier success!!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on December 11, 2005, 08:51:11 pm
bant: Where did you get the 30 scholarship figure? The NCAA limit for DIAA is, I believe, 63. Will Stony Brook ramp up to 63 over time?? If so, how much time?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on December 11, 2005, 09:27:36 pm
Well, I heard they were phasing it in.  I grew up on Long Island and used to watch Hofstra games.  I believe Hofstra started out D-3 and gradually added in more and more scholarships.  I do know, almost with 100% certainty, that Hofstra moved from non-scholarship to scholarship I-AA not much more than a decade or so ago (if I'm not COMPLETELY crazy... thats what I remember from when I was younger).

I think they add them over the course of a few years.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on December 11, 2005, 09:43:37 pm
hofstra is also in maybe the best 1-aa conference in the nation, where every team competes for a national championship.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on December 11, 2005, 10:53:37 pm
Right.  By the time I was done with college, Hofstra starting being good enough to be one of those I-A practices games for schools like Marshall... quite a buildup considering where they started from.  I think they've had two down years most recently, but were playing tough games against some of the best teams in the conference and were a young team or something.

I hope they play Stony Brook, that would be fun to watch.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on December 12, 2005, 07:43:44 am
Right.  By the time I was done with college, Hofstra starting being good enough to be one of those I-A practices games for schools like Marshall... quite a buildup considering where they started from.  I think they've had two down years most recently, but were playing tough games against some of the best teams in the conference and were a young team or something.

I hope they play Stony Brook, that would be fun to watch.

Yea, Long Island and New Jersey for that matter are tough places to recruit national and even regional athletes.  Schools like Hofstra, CW Post, Stony Brook, and even a school like the College of New Jersey must rely on instate talent for the most part.

Rutgers is kind of trying to break out of that mold and of course schools like Princeton, Fordham and Columbia are already huge national programs.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on December 12, 2005, 11:43:34 am
True enough, but there is alot of good enough I-AA-type local talent in New York and particularly Long Island.  Long Island doesn't seem to produce that many I-A stars (look out for Jerome Gwaltney though at West Virginia), but it seems to have done pretty well by Hofstra.

I think one thing Priore will be good at is convincing kids to go to Stony Brook instead of better football schools like Hofstra. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: 4u on December 12, 2005, 12:10:22 pm
Trinity followers...
Is Jeff Behrman staying or going with Priore?
Any info would be helpful,
4u
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: First6Ws on December 12, 2005, 12:19:19 pm
The NEC is perenially one of the two weakest conferences in 1-AA (along with the Metro-Atlantic).  They were non-scholarship schools with lesser academic repuations than NESCACs, anyone that could get in to a NESCAC would go d3 instead (the one exception being finances, good student-athletes can be tempted by these schools with full academic scholarships).  In the past these conferences were not as good as some, if not many, d3 conferences.  Trinity's recent teams would have been very competitive in these conferences.  This will change with the introduction of scholarships but it will probably be at least a few years before any teams from the NEC are considered for the playoffs.  But obviously there are different ideas of success.  Winning the conference and knocking off a few out-of-conference opponents is a very successful season in the NEC.  I have no doubt in Chuck's ability to do that at Stony Brook.  I'd also like to point out that he won't be "turning it around" at Stony Brook, they had a solid 6-4 year in which they won a share of the conference at 5-2 and got their first W over a Patriot League team (albeit a horrendous 1-10 Bucknell team).  Also, Coach Kornhauser was named NEC Coach of the Year. Chuck returns to his native Long Island at the right time.  With the introduction of scholarships, he can take Stony Brook and his own career to the next level.  
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on December 12, 2005, 02:27:34 pm
I also believe that the Central Conn coach (from the NEC) took the head job at Fordham, (a patriot league, and better conference than the NEC).

Showing that a winner from that conference can go to bigger and better things.  And stonybrook was second in that conference as well.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on December 12, 2005, 06:22:45 pm
Over Stony Brook's full football history of 22 years it has lost more games than it has won.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: downbythebeach on December 13, 2005, 11:50:33 am
I know the NEC quite well

Last year they were not exactly non scholly, they had 30 financial aid packages to give, but in two years they will give 30 scholarships and keep increasing from there.

SBU has awesome facilities (check out their stadium, its pretty big)
American East I believe in most other sports

20,000+ enrollment, a top 100 research university

The NEC had a down year, but is usually the best in low scholly I-AA of 3 conferences (usually a lot better).
Co Champ Central Connecticut beat Patriot League Champ and Playoff qualifier Colgate

Only one vs. D3 game this year
Rowan 35
Robert Morris 28
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on December 13, 2005, 10:22:57 pm
Trinity followers...
Is Jeff Behrman staying or going with Priore?
Any info would be helpful,
4u

Behrman is leaving Trinity. Here's the skinny on who is leaving the Trinity coaching staff (according to the Trinity student newspaper):

"The Bantams will see a lot of new changes among their coaching staff next season, with offensive coordinator Jeff Behrman following Priore to coach the Seawolves. Outside linebacker coach James Pio will be leaving the staff as well and wide receivers coach Mike Darr is retiring."

Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Longtooth on December 14, 2005, 12:18:07 pm
I heard that The DC's name from tuftf in the mix for the Macalester job, any truth or any word on that?  why would he go there?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: 4u on December 14, 2005, 02:02:56 pm
Thanks, Speedy.
4u
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dewcrew88 on December 14, 2005, 02:27:57 pm
1,000th post on the NESCAC board... thanks, and see ya later.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on December 15, 2005, 07:59:12 am
The new millenium actually starts at 1,001
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 15, 2005, 05:04:03 pm
I heard that The DC's name from tuftf in the mix for the Macalester job, any truth or any word on that?  why would he go there?

He is one of four finalists for that job, yes.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Nescacfan05 on December 16, 2005, 11:12:36 am
Who are the other candidates??
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on December 16, 2005, 08:23:23 pm
Glenn Caruso, asst at So Dakota (Div II), was named head coach for Macalaster today.
Glad to see Walsh staying at Tufts but he will get his chance someday.......definitely head coach material.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on December 17, 2005, 04:56:03 am
While the application/interviewing process surely was educational for Walsh, he is better off having failed to gain the position. From all appearances, Macalester is a football coaches' grave yard. Six or 7 or 8 years of about 1-9 per year usually will so discourage a coach that he will leave the profession permanently.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on December 17, 2005, 11:08:52 am
Jim Ostendarp, 82, Head Football Coach at Amherst College and an assistant at Bucknell and Cornell Universities and Williams College, died on December 15. See Amherst website for details.
Title: nescac comparisions
Post by: buzztd on December 17, 2005, 06:49:31 pm
for a pot4ential nescac recruit what are the advantages other than records to bates, hamilton, colby wesleyan, any color on who will get the hamilton job. Also anyone looking at similar school on westcoast.
Title: Re: nescac comparisions
Post by: frank uible on December 17, 2005, 07:09:46 pm
There is an academic reputation pecking order among those four, and with respect to any highly similar colleges located on the west coast there are at most only three. For starters see the 2006 U.S. News and World Report liberal arts colleges rankings.
Title: Re: nescac comparisions
Post by: buzztd on December 17, 2005, 07:16:41 pm
thanks frank, me and dad did that but we are looking for the skinny from guys like you.  We can sort out the obvious books but we are looking for the inside line.
Title: Re: nescac comparisions
Post by: frank uible on December 17, 2005, 07:52:12 pm
buzz: I have visited each of the 4 campuses several times, but have no insight on the 4 schools except for obvious comments on endowment, enrollment, latitude, topography and less or more rural location, information all readily, independently ascertainable. I have never visited any of the highly similar west coast colleges and consequently know even less about them.
Title: Re: nescac comparisions
Post by: cruiser on December 17, 2005, 09:07:48 pm
its all a matter of personal opinion and feel, but in my opinion, colby is the way to go
Title: Re: nescac comparisions
Post by: buzztd on December 17, 2005, 09:23:57 pm
how do u compare mesiteier to say harrimen or hauser . The bowdoin guy seems a bit like a car salesman
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: buzztd on December 17, 2005, 09:25:33 pm
who will be hamiltons coach??? here another nescac guy is in the running any idea
Title: Re: nescac comparisions
Post by: frank uible on December 17, 2005, 10:04:49 pm
If it were my decision, I would pick from among the NESCAC colleges based on factors unrelated to football.
Title: Re: nescac comparisions
Post by: buzztd on December 17, 2005, 10:07:05 pm
frank, too vague the academics seem similar the enviroment except maine is a little colder, kids seem about the same maybe weslaeyan a bit liberal, what do u think your giving questions not answers help
Title: Re: nescac comparisions
Post by: frank uible on December 17, 2005, 10:22:27 pm
If my choice had to be made right now and was to be only from Bates, Colby, Hamilton and Wesleyan, I would choose Wesleyan based on a slightly better academic reputation and the belief that  football should be far subordinate to academics and probably will take care of itself. You should take into acount that I am 70 years old.
Title: Re: nescac comparisions
Post by: buzztd on December 17, 2005, 10:39:44 pm
I respect that answer, I thought wesleyan was slightly better academicly, the 0-8 record should allow me to play early, and ct is closer to new york. On the negative, very liberal, bit artsy, and roster a bit narrow of geographic diversity. I am from the south so all these places are a bit different from my norm. The education is great at them all thanks for the advice. And age like record matters little.
Title: Re: nescac comparisions
Post by: bomber27 on December 17, 2005, 10:47:34 pm
Buzz,

  I was recruited by Wesleyan 4 years ago and they have a great coach.  If it wasn't for Ithaca being what it is, I would have gone to Wesleyan in a heart beat.  There coach is a stand up guy and he just happens to be from where I was born so it made it that much better.  Oh and Bill Belichek and Eric Mangini gave me a call which was pretty cool. 
Title: Re: nescac comparisions
Post by: buzztd on December 17, 2005, 10:49:08 pm
ct kid wherre did u play, know some guys there, may dads buddy played for ithaca cool school
Title: Re: nescac comparisions
Post by: Jonny Utah on December 18, 2005, 07:26:45 am
for a pot4ential nescac recruit what are the advantages other than records to bates, hamilton, colby wesleyan, any color on who will get the hamilton job. Also anyone looking at similar school on westcoast.


dont know too much about hamilton, but bates and wesleyan have more of a hippie/long hair/liberal crowd and Colby is more like Bowdoin with the rich New England Yankee crowd.
Title: Re: nescac comparisions
Post by: buzztd on December 18, 2005, 08:39:14 am
well hamilton is coachless, bates and wesleyan seem a little different  wesleyan more liberal, nobody from my school even looks at these places much so references are non existant, colby may be preppie so I may not fit, do not like amherst or williams too too rich, the football seems similar, the academics are all great, cost about the same. will probably come down to coaches and who might want me. Will look at some biggere schools in the ivies as well.
Title: Re: nescac comparisions
Post by: frank uible on December 18, 2005, 10:16:09 am
buzz: If you are any good at all, you can and will play at any NESCAC college. At some of them even if you are not any good. At any rate they all will let you fill out the squad (don't worry about the Rule of 75 - most of them don't have to use it). Each of them has its own relative strengths and minor shortcomings. Go for the academics!
Title: Re: nescac comparisions
Post by: buzztd on December 18, 2005, 11:14:48 am
frank, not going to do the macho thing, I can play, come from a place where football is the only thing, can read, write and have good board scores, just looking for info, and your correct its all about theschool. But like my dad says we are comparing mercedes, bmw, and maybe if we play are cards right we will be all very happy in four years at graduation. Thanks for your words.
Title: Re: nescac comparisions
Post by: bant551 on December 18, 2005, 11:43:15 am
Purely on academics, Williams and Amherst would be your top choices.

If you are secure in getting into those places, I reccomend, just to see the place, going by Trinity.

I visited Williams, Hamilton and Trinity in the NESCAC and chose Trinity.  My friend who cared almost exclusively about academics thought I was insane (and apparently so did Williams' coach, who said something about making the "biggest mistake of my life").  I just felt alot more comfortable at Trinity.  Kind of a mix of being a good school but also being a place that looked like it would be alot of fun.

But if you were going by pure rankings, and don't want to visit good old Trin, I think you can rule out Hamilton because those other schools, as you've alluded to, are very similar.  Hamilton is a bit depressing.  I cannot say that I didn't enjoy and of my trips to those schools because it is kind of interesting, but in terms of social life and things to do in the surrounding area, Hamilton does not have much to offer.  Plus, you must factor in with Weseleyan and Hamilton that the teams are terrible, and there might not be better days on the horizon.  Big difference between going to a team that had a down year and going to a team that didn't win a game the year before.

As for Hamilton, I had a friend who went there the year before me, probably would have been a decent player on most other teams, but ended up being their top receiver, returning punts, playing a little d-back.... he ended up going abroad his junior year and didn't play ball his senior year after winning like one game through 3 years.  I always wondered what that was like.  I remember they had a really good defensive lineman there when we played them, and beat them 39-0.  I was just thinking how much it would suck to be a very, very solid player but to have everyone around you make it virtually impossible for your team to win one game all year.  I'd reccomend factoring that in unless academics really sets Hamilton apart from the other schools you mentioned.

Weseleyan does have a great campus, but it is very liberal like you've mentioned.  Also, the same football quality thing you'd have to deal with.  Also, it drives me crazy watching them try to run an offense.  Its kind of cool to have an interesting offense and all, but I'm not sure that they even know you are ALLOWED to run the football.  Mindboggling.  Probably would drive me even crazier if I played there.

Finally, the football problems and campus problems are not present at the other schools you mentioned.  At least I can't think of similar complaints.  Had a friend play laccrosse at Bowdoin and I think he liked his school fine.  Middlebury puts alot of $$ into its athletic facilities.  Williams and Amherst are the best of the best academically, Colby I don't know anything about, which is probably a good thing, and they are good at football... don't know anything about Bates either.  And of course, I was very happy with Trinity!

Can't go wrong with any of these schools.  Good luck.
Title: Re: nescac comparisions
Post by: mariner75 on December 18, 2005, 11:58:33 am
buzztd....

Another NESCAC school to consider is Tufts......doesn't fall into the small liberal arts classification as it's considered a national university (US News) but it's not too big (about 4800 students).   Obviously top notch academically, as are all the NESCACs, and it's location near Boston (15 minute subway ride from downtown) is great, if you're looking for a suburban campus not far from a big city.  Good luck in your search.
Title: Re: nescac comparisions
Post by: bomber27 on December 18, 2005, 12:41:50 pm
Buzz, I went to Immaculate High in Danbury,CT and Gunnery Prep School in Washington, CT.  Go academics, you'll have fun no matter where you go, its college
Title: Re: nescac comparisions
Post by: buzztd on December 18, 2005, 12:53:52 pm
very cool at least we are shoping in the right store, intelligent answers from smart people beats the advice at my school thanks.
Title: Re: nescac comparisions
Post by: speedy on December 18, 2005, 03:42:20 pm
Buzz -- Are you a high school junior or a senior? Unless your academic record is absolutely steller, you may want to call upon the football coach for help in the admissions process. That's most readily gained in the "early decision" phase of the process.

All NESCAC schools give weight to athletic talent in the admissions process but it is a somewhat regulated process (with numerical limits on the numbers of "tips" a coach has per year with the admissions department). Because of the way the process works, coaches perfer to use their tips on ahletes who have made their school their number one choice.

The NESCAC schools you are focusing on all have somewhat lower admissions standards than most of the ones you have excluded (Amherst, Williams, Bowdoin and Middlebury all rank above the schools on your list).  Even so, all NESCAC schools have relatively exacting admission standards so make sure that you do not inadvertently deny yourself assistance in the admissions process by applying to a laundry list of NESCAC schools. Of the four schools on your list, Wesleyan probbaly has the most demanding admissions standards.

Several NESCAC schools have a second early decision phase so if you are a senior it's not too late to go the ED route . ..
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trincoll on December 18, 2005, 10:00:48 pm
My recommendation is to use football to get you into a NESCAC school. Then choose Trinity b/c you’re guaranteed to have a Wining %. Then after your freshman year pledge Crow (AXP) they are building a house.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on December 19, 2005, 11:46:25 am
Now that Priore is moving on here's a list of just a few of his classic "Priore-isms"


"You know gentlemen... hindsight is 50/50."

"If you're too high in the chutes you're going to castrate yourself!"

"That's what's going to happen 99 times out of 10."

"Are you trying to ruin everyone of my wet dreams!?!"

"Why don't you go lock yourself in a closet with a loaded .45 and if the funeral is on a Saturday, I'm not going because I've got a game to coach."



Best of luck to Jeff Devanney
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: chessdoc on December 19, 2005, 11:55:02 am
well cross stonybrook off the list////????? good luck to the new coach sound like they are loaded anyway
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dewcrew88 on December 19, 2005, 01:29:20 pm
Quote
"If you're too high in the chutes you're going to castrate yourself!"

As a lineman, I laughed when I read that. Those chutes could reach out and grab you when you weren't paying attention. It could ring your bell!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: 'gro on December 19, 2005, 04:04:34 pm
Buzz, not to sound like a hater, but why are you dead set on a NESCAC school? There are other schools in NE, NY, PA that are just as good in academics, and we all know the football is better. eh, who cares, just go to Tufts.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on December 19, 2005, 06:20:33 pm
I contacted Priore last week via e-mail to congratulate him on his achievements @ Trinity, and to wish him well with his move to Stony Brook.  He is aware of the challenges that face him, but it was refreshing to have him say that he was going to put those boys through the ringer...just like he did to us.  He will have a lot of success in his new endeavours and I can not wait to see Stony Brook in a championship game in 4-5 years.  With that said, I am to rushed to figure out who Buzz is and all this talk about where to go to school in the NESCAC, but if you are looking to compete in a tremendous academic and athletic school I suggest you look no further than Trinity...you will not be dissapointed in any way.  Good luck with your career, I can assure you that the support you recieve from the Bantam family after graduation, across the country, is truly amazing...I have experienced this several times in my 2 years after graduation.  30 in a row is not to bad itself...
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: NESCACfan on December 19, 2005, 11:52:05 pm
I heard from a very knowledgable soruce that when Hamilton fired their coaches they did it with some fireworks.  Called the entire staff in to a room, told them they were all fired, and changed the locks on them while they were in the meeting.  What does this tell you about Hamilton?  Finally getting fed up with losing?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: baller85 on December 20, 2005, 02:39:13 am
I would actually recommend Bates.  Although their record hasn't shown it, they are progressing.  Its only a matter of time before they have a season like colby and bowdoin did this year.  They play everyone but trinity close and thats all you can ask for is to be competitive in college.  The people are great there and the academics are as well.  Social life up there is great, better than any school I've been to.  It's not very liberal like you said.  Obviously theres some hippies like all the nescacs, but over 60% of the kids there are athletes so its a great environment.  Give the bobcats a look, plus they are making a bunch of changes to the campus.  Good things to come. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: 79GT on December 20, 2005, 01:05:49 pm
Could anyone give a source for info on the Hamilton coaching situation?  I don't see anything posted on their website, or through d3football.com.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on December 20, 2005, 03:23:18 pm
http://www.athletesadvisor.com/articles/football/hamilton.htm
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: chessdoc on December 25, 2005, 11:03:08 pm
Stetson sounds like a great choice for hamilton. Anyone know anything about him or his plans. Will the school support him?? sounds like they have a plan from there web site.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on December 26, 2005, 07:33:50 am
Stetson is a good guy who turned around the Hartwick program from scratch to a team that almost made the playoffs in 5 years.  Hes got a lot of connections around the country and is a good recruiter....
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on December 27, 2005, 02:47:24 pm
http://www.colby.edu/athletics/releases/archive_0506/fb12-23-05.shtml

congratulations to coach mestieri and the colby football program
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: gordonmann on December 28, 2005, 11:13:14 am
Here's an interesting story on recruiting in the NESCAC and other liberal arts school conferences.  This sheds some light -- and perhaps dispells some myths -- on whether Trinity or other schools have recruiting advantages.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/25/sports/ncaafootball/25sidebar.html
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on December 28, 2005, 11:39:49 am
gordon, give me your nytimes password and email and Ill read that article.....


(actually I think Ive signed up like 5 different times to that site just to read some article each time.  Then I forget what the password is the next time I want to read one.)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 28, 2005, 01:46:48 pm
Please respect a newspaper's copyright and not violate it by posting an entire article here. We ask them to respect us so it's only fair that it extend in the other direction as well.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on December 29, 2005, 04:36:14 pm
Please respect a newspaper's copyright and not violate it by posting an entire article here. We ask them to respect us so it's only fair that it extend in the other direction as well.

You know more than me pat, but I would think the nytimes would be happy anytime someone is redirected to their site.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 30, 2005, 03:46:29 am
Absolutely, redirected. But someone else copied and pasted the entire story. I edited their post to delete most of the story. Then that person deleted his/her post.
Title: Buzz
Post by: Ephs1991 on January 03, 2006, 12:55:11 pm
Dear Buzz,

You seem very (over) confident in your ability to just jump in and play anywhere.  Just like a number of high school heroes that we used to have at Williams and I'm sure everywhere else in the NESCAC.  Funny thing about those guys, most of them quit by the end of September, even though they always talked about being recruited somewhere else.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: former bear wr on January 05, 2006, 03:15:02 pm
Yeah, EPhs beat me to it, but Buzz you make it seem like you are Reggie Bush or something coming out of high school. Are you going to announce your intentions on espn? And the fact that you called Dave Caputi a used car salesman or whatever just confirms that you are a jerk as you couldnt more more off base. In fact, it seems unlikely that you would even fit into a team in the league where the players are almost to a man great character guys.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on January 05, 2006, 05:38:06 pm
It seems to me that all athletes coming out of high school highly underestimate the skill and talent level of Division III sports, and not just in football.

Former Bear, def agree w/ you about the character of the guys in the NESCAC.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: chessdoc on January 05, 2006, 06:10:58 pm
how do u compare the division 3 schools ie, trinity to wittenberg, union, likes of alfred do the power ranking on these sites work, Also how would nescac do if they were in the playoff structures, I know its sort of like asking if the BCS did not have boowl games who would win so dont bash me.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on January 05, 2006, 06:59:22 pm
Impossible to compare, as any attempts to do so are purely based on speculation.

My only thought is that, in arguing that NESCAC schools would not have a shot at beating playoff-qualiftying conferences, people ignore the fact that NESCAC schools do very well in playoffs, and they also seem to forget that in claiming superiority, they are also in Division III, so there isn't anything inherently superior about their level of play.  If they were truly of a higher ability, the players would be on scholarship somewhere.

That being said, I have absolutely no problem, whatsoever, with the general statement that, as a whole, those LEAGUES are FAR better than the NESCAC.  That does not, however, mean to say that when there is an elite NESCAC team, that the elite NESCAC team wouldn't be able to compete and win in playoff-qualifying divisions.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: illinihscoach05 on January 17, 2006, 12:48:31 pm
 ;)Having coached at Middlebury back in the 80's, and having seen some tapes on NESCAC teams today, I feel that the stronger NESCAC teams could definitely compete within the East Region if given a shot!  Look at how well their hockey teams, both men and womens, do on a national level (Middlebury has won several national championships, and that does not even speak to Field Hockey, Lacrosse, and soccer, where they have also had good national success).  Referring back to the 80's, in 1981 we beat a good Union team pretty handily in Middlebury (28-0) and two years later they went to the Stagg Bowl with a lot of the same players.  We can debate it for however long anyone wants, this is just my opinion.  Take Trinity this year and I think Chuck Priore and Co. could have gotten them ready to play versus another eastern opponent.  How weel would they do against the Mt. Unions, Capitals, Linfields, UW-W's, etc. I cannot say.  But NESCAC quality athletics overall is certainly strong!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on January 17, 2006, 06:12:14 pm
Wesleyan grad Eric Mangini named as the new head coach of the NY Jets today.....will be 35 years old this week, making him the youngest NFL head coach.
Played for the Cards as a nose tackle in the early 90's.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on January 17, 2006, 06:21:31 pm
Break up Wesleyan! Now that it has two graduates as NFL head football coaches.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Nescacfan05 on January 17, 2006, 09:39:20 pm
To bad they can't help wesleyan....
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: gordonmann on January 17, 2006, 11:10:55 pm
Congrats to Wesleyan on this distinction.

I was actually kind of pumped for the Cards when I heard Mangini was in the running.

Well, okay.  Only as pumped as a Trinity grad can get for Wesleyan.  ;)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on January 18, 2006, 10:28:56 am
Forget Miami of Ohio, Wesleyan is the new Craddle of Coaches. Congrats to Wes... maybe one of these days a former Card who can coach will turn around their sorry program.

With the departure of Priore and much of his staff the only coach still at Trinity who was there for the start of the current Bantam win streak is head coach Jeff Devanney, who wasn't even on the Trinity staff when Priore first took over in 2000. Could this signal the end of Trinity's dominance in the league? Maybe not; I've heard so far the Bantams have locked up what should be another outstanding recruiting class.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on January 18, 2006, 09:29:22 pm
every team is going to boast an outstanding recruiting class. nobody wants to volunteer the fact that they are less than happy with their new recruits (not to say that trinity is). to have a team say that it is anything less than very excited about new recruits would be to surrender more information to its opponents than is prudent
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: dirtybirds8-0 on January 20, 2006, 02:15:34 pm
I have also been talking with several contacts from Trinity, they have a very solid recruiting class coming in thus far and I would not be suprised if they dominate again this year.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: First6Ws on January 23, 2006, 08:32:49 pm
Devanney is a phenomenal coach and no one has more passion for Trinity than he does, RIGHT!!!!? :o.  I'd imagine that he has left a great impression on many recruits and also their parents.

Congrats to Wesleyan on Mangini.  Quite impressive indeed
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on January 24, 2006, 10:09:43 am
HAHAHA, First6 OUTSTANDING job of finding a smiley face that does a Devanney impression. The focus behind those "crazy eyes" is sure to lead to continued success for the Bants.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: chessdoc on February 01, 2006, 09:09:03 pm
When do we find out which kids choose which nescac schools, like the d-1 guys see on their sites?????
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on February 01, 2006, 09:21:21 pm
They will never post those.  The Boston Blobe has a page in the spring that lists local colleges football incomming frosh (d3 included)  The nescac never put names in however.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: chessdoc on February 04, 2006, 11:31:12 am
how does attendence vary among nescac schools, also why do a couple of teams continue to dominate over the years????
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on February 04, 2006, 12:16:41 pm
You can see attendance numbers for games at each teams statistic sites (good guess estimates in many cases).  They usually number from a couple hundred to 2000-3000...& much larger depending on The Game (i.e., Amherst - Williams).
In comparing with other DIII games, NESCAC games are average(equal) to most other schools.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on February 04, 2006, 12:19:21 pm
You need to take into account weather, homecomings, etc also.  And like all programs, if you're winning you'll get more people watching.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on February 05, 2006, 02:08:59 am
Trin (Hartford) actually ranks high in attendance in terms of D-3 schools.  I read that in one of those college footballs previews which makes the last page an advertisement/D-3 page.  It had attendance numbers.  Apparently Trinity does decent in that regard.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: frank uible on February 05, 2006, 06:45:51 am
Annually the NCAA publishes in its Official Football Records Books the immediately prior year's attendance for each of its member colleges. Usually in recent years  Amherst, Trinity and Williams are among the top 20 DIII colleges in annual home attendance per home game. In 2001 - 2004 St. John's (Minn.)  lead all DIII colleges in annual home attendance per home game. In the years 1989 - 2004 (except for 2002 and 2003)  the Old Dominion Athletic Conference lead all DIII conferences in total annual attendance. For each of 2002 and 2003 the Ohio Athletic Conference lead.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: chessdoc on February 11, 2006, 05:03:22 pm
anyone have any info on incoming freshmen  at any of the nescac school, will the strenghth of the league roate or will historic results and trends continue???
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on February 14, 2006, 09:49:03 am
From what I've heard out of Trinity, they have a few incoming freshman who are among their best recruits in recent years. However, they don't have the overall number of quality players that have highlighted their recent freshmen classes.

Don't expect the NESCAC hierarchy to change much this year (if ever). Colby can establish itself as one of the top tier teams if they can repeat the success of last years 7-1 team. Look for Trinity to stay atop the league but there's a chance they may lose a little ground in the first year under new leadership.

Williams and Amherst will, as always, have solid teams, while Middlebury, Tufts and newcomer to the middle of the pack Bowdoin will all be competitive.

The bottom feeders will again be Hamilton, Bates and Wesleyan whose program is really on the decline.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on February 14, 2006, 03:15:31 pm
the hierarchy will ebb and flow just like it always does. colby is on the way up, and one can assume that trinity will hang onto its perch as long as it can. the only teams that one can really peg are the bottom feeders, hamilton, bates and wesleyan
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on February 16, 2006, 03:13:29 pm
By the way, since there's usually a fair amount of crossover between sports, just a reminder to people that we now have men's and women's lacrosse message boards as well:

http://www.d3sports.com/post/index.php?board=1501.0 (men)
http://www.d3sports.com/post/index.php?board=1502.0 (women)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Bullfrog on February 18, 2006, 11:27:09 pm
I hate to say this but cruiser you are right about bottom feeders, with one excepetion the Cards might be worse off than Bates and Hamilton.

Admissions rules in Cards country!  It might be interesting will Trinity lose a game first or will the Cards win one first?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: chessdoc on February 23, 2006, 09:09:40 am
How does a fan get to discover how any nescac team does in the recruiting process and when will next years schedules be released to the public???
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on February 23, 2006, 02:21:50 pm
Good luck finding anything out about D3 recruiting especially in the NESCAC unless you have a contact at a particular school who is a member of the coaching staff or at least works in the athletic department.

Regarding the schedule for NESCAC schools, they don't change year to year with the excpetion of the first game of the season. The week 1 opponent rotates between 2 schools every two years. For example Trinity played Bates the first week of the season each of the past two years, they will now play Colby for the next two season openers.

Whichever NESCAC school was off of the schedule this past year will replace the week 1 opponent this year, and the next.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: chessdoc on February 23, 2006, 07:59:51 pm
thanks can not wait to catch a few games thanks for the info
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Longtooth on March 01, 2006, 05:05:33 pm
Who will win the conference?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on March 01, 2006, 10:08:30 pm
colby or trinity
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on March 02, 2006, 09:33:21 am
Colby had a very good year last year, but don't get too anxious to label them as a consistent contender for the league title just yet. They only beat one of the 3 perennial NESCAC powers last year, Williams in week 1. They lost to Amherst and didn't have to play Trinity.

This year they'll have to go through Trinity the first game of the season. And they play the Bantams in Hartford, where Trinity just doesn't lose. They also have to play the Jeffs on the road. Williams is off the schedule but I don't see Colby finishing any higher than 3rd this year.

I think Trinity will win the NESCAC again, though they likely won't be as dominant as the past few years. Amherst and Williams will probably fight for second place, and Colby will finish 3rd or 4th.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on March 02, 2006, 10:06:37 am
dont underestimate the mules. while some predicted the 7-1 record last year, as many or more didnt think the mules had it in them. not many know what these mules are made of. i think they will surprise this year
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Nescacfan05 on March 03, 2006, 02:00:10 pm
Trinity 24-0
Colby 18-6
Williams 18-6
Amherst 15-9
All the other NESCAC's have losing reocrds over that time period

I think Colby has estabilished themselves as Legit contenders compared to all bu Trinity, considering know one has beaten Trinity in 3 years, and Colby has done well enough to finish second the last 2 years.....It is what it is.....

Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: chessdoc on March 04, 2006, 09:24:25 am
whats the outlook for wesleyan, bates and hamilton to turn around their fortunes???? When  will schedules be published???
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on March 04, 2006, 04:40:09 pm
2006 Outlook:

Top:  Trinity, Williams
Middle: Colby, Amherst, Tufts, Middlebury, Bowdoin
Bottom: Bates, Hamilton, Wesleyan
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Bullfrog on March 04, 2006, 10:24:46 pm
Hamilton new staff will probably make some turn around.  HC had to get some commitment, otherwise, dum move leaving UNH.

Bates good group coming back getting some kids. 

Last and will continue to be last is Wes, unless Mangini and Belicheck make some rumblings to admisison.   
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on March 05, 2006, 12:22:14 pm
chessdoc: I though we've covered this, but the schedules are the same every year with the exception of the 1st game, which rotates between two teams every two years. Also the site of the game rotates every year.

Therefore the scheule is identical to last year except the visiting team becomes the home team and the week one match ups will be as follows:

Bates at Amherst
Colby at Trinity
Hamilton at Tufts
Bowdoin at Williams
Wesleyan at Middlebury


Mariner, I think a more appropriate break down of how the league is balanced would be

Top: Trinity
Contenders: Williams, Amherst, Colby
Also ran: Middlebury, Tufts, Bowdoin
Basement: Bates, Hamilton,Wesleyan
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on March 05, 2006, 12:53:27 pm
Trin...which of the contenders do you think has the best shot at upending your Bants?  I picked Williams as they impressed me the most last year the way they finished & have the most back. I know Cruiser likes the Mules but I think they lost the most talent (Stepka & the O'line, esp. Oliphant).  Nothin' like debating NESCAC football in March!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on March 05, 2006, 05:28:05 pm
the mules only lose 2 starting o linemen although oliphant will be missed, but stepka has his successor in bashaw. he split time with stepka last year, and upon examining the games from last year he averaged 6 yards per carry, was 8th in rushing in the nescac and is only a sophomore, finishing the year with 2 100 yard games in the final 2 games. plus, he was nescac rookie of the week 3 times as a freshman and would have won if not for bates qb. bright future for the mules running game
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on March 05, 2006, 07:55:18 pm
Bashaw's a banger.  Not the same speed or pure talent that Stepka was......
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on March 05, 2006, 08:36:14 pm
whats a "banger"?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on March 06, 2006, 05:51:15 am
straight ahead type...runs over people, not around them.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Nescacfan05 on March 06, 2006, 09:22:25 am
He is a banger, but he is much faster than Stepka, he had 3 runs of 40 plus yards on the year, Stepka did not...Why won't the NESCAC let everyone play each other, it is one game more!!!!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on March 06, 2006, 09:38:00 am
Mariner, I agree that Williams has the best shot at beating the Bants. Not only do they have the most depth retuning, but because the game is in Williamstown. Colby will be solid, and Amherst may have the most talent of the 3 contenders... but Trin doesn't lose at home.

Of Colby's 7 All-Conference selections only 2 are returning and they were both 2nd team.

Amherst had 7 All-Conference selections as well but return 4, while Williams had 11 All-Conference selections and return 8.

Trinity had 13 All-Conference selections and return 7.


The Bants should be able to take care of Colby at home week one, and if they can step up and take down the Ephs week two they will roll until the Homecoming game against Amherst game in week 7. If they can pull that off than the Bants will start the Devanney era with a 4th straight undefeated season.

(side note; Devanney, in an attempt to reconnect with the football alumni is going back to the gold helmets with the bird. Though I never wore the Bant on the side, I think it's a great move and puts his stamp on the program.)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: cruiser on March 06, 2006, 12:37:52 pm
actually from what i have heard, colby returns 3 all conference. a reliable source was telling me that their all conference safety has another year of eligibility and will be returning next season
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Nescacfan05 on March 07, 2006, 09:12:52 am
Have you seen some of th A-C selections....it is a popularity contest, and not indicative of talent, Amount of AC selections has not bering on a 'Team's' ability to play as a team, Lets just say the top 4 teams will all be battling it out, and the NESCAC should allow everyone to play each other...it would make for a great race.......
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on March 07, 2006, 10:56:46 am
Fan5: I completely agree. It's ridicuous that every year we have to hope that the two best teams get to play each other. We almost had this nightmare last year. If Colby had won 1 more game there would have been two undefeated teams who would have had to share a league title.

It's bad enough NESCAC football teams aren't allowed to play anyone out of conference... but they don't even play everyone in their own conference!

If they don't want to add an extra game, why not kick Hamilton out of NESCAC football?

They already don't compete in the NESCAC in several league sanctioned sports including, men's and women's basketball, men's and women's soccer, men's and women's lacrosse, rowing and field hockey. What would be the loss if they didn't play football?

THEY'VE WON 9 GAMES THE PAST 9 YEARS!


This should be a secondary option to simply adding a 9th game. However, if the league administration doesn't want to add another game to the schedule they could remove Hamilton, realign the schedule and keep their precious 8 game season.

Just an idea.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on March 07, 2006, 07:14:09 pm
. . .
If they don't want to add an extra game, why not kick Hamilton out of NESCAC football?

They already don't compete in the NESCAC in several league sanctioned sports including, men's and women's basketball, men's and women's soccer, men's and women's lacrosse, rowing and field hockey. What would be the loss if they didn't play football?

THEY'VE WON 9 GAMES THE PAST 9 YEARS!

I have often wondered why Hamilton is allowed to pick and choose NESCAC sports. It seem to me that it should be all sports or no sports the way it is for the other 10 schools. And anyway, Hamilton is in New York state!!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Bullfrog on March 07, 2006, 11:21:39 pm
I often wnder why not kick Trinity out, they haven't lost a game and don't play by the same rules as all other NESCAC schools?   It would only make sense, since realistic they aren't going to lose a game. 

How pumped up can you get knowing that on your worst day you can beat most NESCAC schools!   Wouldn't it be great to see the NESCAC bully play other teams, betcha they wouldn't be undefeated!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on March 08, 2006, 09:10:30 am
I often wnder why not kick Trinity out, they haven't lost a game and don't play by the same rules as all other NESCAC schools? It would only make sense, since realistic they aren't going to lose a game.


Bullfrog: What exactly are these rules the Trinity football program isn't following? Why does Trinity's dominance always have to be explained by some mysterious cheating conspiracy? It seems to me that they have recruited more talented players who have worked hard for its achievements. Why punish a team for its success?

I'll guarantee you the players and coaches at Williams, Amherst and Colby would much rather play Trinity and compete for a chance to knock-off the Bantams, than to beat-up on Hamilton (again).

How pumped up can you get knowing that on your worst day you can beat most NESCAC schools! Wouldn't it be great to see the NESCAC bully play other teams, betcha they wouldn't be undefeated!

I know first hand how pumped up you can get to beat each and every NESCAC school and be rewarded for a years worth of hardwork and dedication. It would be great to see a NESCAC champ play teams out of conference, but Trinity can only beat the teams it plays... and they have, for 30 straight games.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Bullfrog on March 08, 2006, 10:23:18 pm
First of all, if I was in the same boat as Trinity I wouldn't be complaining.  It's not a knock on their program.  However, what other NESCC school CONSISTENTLY takes kids with 800/900 on their boards or gets kids accepted when they have barely gotten bye at their respective high schools or colleges.  No other NESCAC team is even in the same ball park as the Bants.

Please don't give me th BS that doesn't happen! 

Again, I can honsetly say if I could get away with that I would, but after awhile you want to get some better challenges, if you like competition.  That is the problem with this league in football they don't want to get to that next level and Trinity will not get to that next level in this league. 

As far as other teams wanting to play the Bants don't kid yourself.  Many of these coaches complain and whine just like all of us. 

The one thing I definately agree Trinity is 30-0 and will probably be 38-0 after this season, unless new coaching staff screws it up.  Talent on this team does not compare to that first big year under Priore.  Trinty can start their second team and still have a shot at going 38-0. 

Gee I get pumped!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: tmerton on March 09, 2006, 12:02:47 am
It is strange to me the way the NESCAC seems to play football by different rules than the other sports.  The schools go all out in other team sports such as hockey and lacrosse - nonconference games, DIII playoffs and the whole bit - and they don't seem shy about success in those sports (e.g., Middlebury's championships in hockey and lacrosse).  I know some of the schools constantly battle pressure about the tips given, especially in football.  Is this the price they elected to pay for continuing with football - i.e., keep the tips but keep football low profile?  Reading comments in places like the ephblog one can see the level of concern, even hostility, in some quarters about this issue.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on March 09, 2006, 10:12:22 am
Bullfrog: Unless you work in the Trinity College admissions department, are a member of the Trinity football staff or happen to be a high school guidence counselor for numerous current and former Trinity football players there is no way you could possibly substantiate your claims that Trinity...

CONSISTENTLY takes kids with 800/900 on their boards or gets kids accepted when they have barely gotten bye at their respective high schools or colleges.

I still have some very close ties to the coaching staff at Trinity and can assure you that there have been VERY few, if ANY students accepted to Trinity who had less than 1000 on the boards, and anyone who was close would have had numerous extenuating circumstances (ie high class rank, gpa, extra-curricular activities etc.)

NUMEROUS times we've addressed the issue  that the majority of NESCAC schools have higher admissions standards than Trinity. However, there are no conferences anywhere, at any level that all have identical standards. Even the Ivy league has its "safety schools".

The Trinity football program does an outstanding job of working WITH its admissions department and WITHIN the NCAA and NESCAC rules to recruit players who are academically qualified to attend one of the best liberal arts schools in the nation.


Again, I can honsetly say if I could get away with that I would, but after awhile you want to get some better challenges, if you like competition. That is the problem with this league in football they don't want to get to that next level and Trinity will not get to that next level in this league.

The league has made the decision to disallow non-conference play and post season participation in football. Therefore, the only marker for success is to win all of your scheduled games. You can't assume the players and coaches at Trinity don't like competition and wouldn't love a chance to prove themselves against teams outside of the NESCAC because doing so would be against league policy.

As far as other teams wanting to play the Bants don't kid yourself. Many of these coaches complain and whine just like all of us.

The one thing I definately agree Trinity is 30-0 and will probably be 38-0 after this season, unless new coaching staff screws it up. Talent on this team does not compare to that first big year under Priore. Trinty can start their second team and still have a shot at going 38-0.

Gee I get pumped!

Let them whine, but any true competitor would rather play a great team and have a chance at beating them than play an awful team and win because the other team was terrible.

Trinity's teams are very talented, but your assumption that the Bantams second string players would dominate the NESCAC is a knock on every starting player at every other school in the league. Based on your logic the all conference teams should be the first 2 columns of the Trinity football depth chart.

I find that hard to believe, and insulting to the players at other schools who work very hard.

I'm curious, have you ever played competetive athletics?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Bullfrog on March 09, 2006, 06:21:28 pm
This is my last post as you appear to believe that people are morons and oblivious as to what is happening over in Bant country.  (You are only lying to yourself)   

Furthermore,  I have never questioned coaches work ethics or meant to insult players.  Most coaches including myself (hint)would love to get to  WORK with Admissions and have a pool of candidates that no one else has in thre league.  That doesn't constitute work or make you this great recruiter.  Now Chuck was smart enough to expand horizons and get national players with the same academic guidlline that has always been in place.

Please folow oyur own advice on any true comp,,

PS I played FB and it was at a higher level than this league!
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on March 09, 2006, 07:42:06 pm
Well I didn't play football but I like to think I know a thing or two about the game.  The way I like look at the whole academics argument...which has been on this thread pretty much all the time....is that the games are not won in the classroom.  Sure talent has something to do with it, but I don't see anybody posting on how the kids at their school get outworked by the Trinity players off the field. 

These guys are the most dedicated bunch of athletes at the school and they deserve the credit they get.  It's obvious that people will continue to hate on the Bants till they are finally defeated.  But the Trinity supporters should also know that everyone is trying to knock the Bants off in anyway they can.  If they can't do it on the field, they'll question the integrity of the program or the legitimacy of the recruits....whatever comes to mind.

But when its all said and done, I doubt that 50 years from now anyone will be questioning what the SAT scores of the starting O Line in the year 2002 was. 

But Frog, if attempting to demean Trinity's football club makes you feel better about yourself, by all means continue.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: speedy on March 11, 2006, 02:09:21 am
It is strange to me the way the NESCAC seems to play football by different rules than the other sports.  The schools go all out in other team sports such as hockey and lacrosse - nonconference games, DIII playoffs and the whole bit - and they don't seem shy about success in those sports (e.g., Middlebury's championships in hockey and lacrosse).  . .

NESCAC teams were banned from playing in the NCAA post-season play-offs in hockey for years. (The same ban may have applied to other team sports but I am only familiar with hockey.) I believe that it was not until the mid-1990s that the NESCAC hockey teams were first allowed to participate in the NCAA play-offs. Even then they had to choose between the ECACs or the NCAAs (this was before there were organized NESCAC play-offs). There was actually one year when Williams had a superb hockey team and skipped the ECACs (because they had to choose one or the other and the ECAC bid had to be accepted before the NCAA bids were known), thinking it was a lock for an NCAA bid. It ended up with no NCAA bid and no post-season play.

I think that the initial approval of participation in NCAA post-season play was meant to be provisional but became permanent very quickly.  Middlebury started reeling off national championships in hockey and lacrosse right away and all kinds of NESCAC teams started getting into post-season play in a wide range of sports. And then these post-season opportunities started generating tons of community support and fan interest (like hockey at Middlebury and women's basketball at Bowdoin). I doubt that anyone would have imagined that women's basketball would become all the rage in Brunswick. And much of the success of the program is due to the post-season opportunities.

Football is always going to be a different kettle of fish because the football NCAAs run for 5 weeks and do not finish until the third week in December.  And since most NESCAC schools (except for Trinity) see little or no chance of their being selected for post-season play, there really isn't any group of institutions that could carry such a proposal through the NESCAC process. Whereas with the autobid and at-large bids for hockey, soccer, basketball, field hockey, and lacrosse, there's broad interest in post-season opportunities for those sports.

I suppose there might also be a concern that the NESCAC schools would become more serious about football if there were post-season opportunities just as they have become more serious about hockey and women's basketball. And then the NESCAC would be back to trying to police football recuruiting, which seems to be the most challenging of the sports because of the sheer numbers involved.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: tmerton on March 12, 2006, 04:24:00 pm
Thanks, speedy - I wasn't aware of the history with lax, hockey, etc in the NESCAC.  Even with the ban on post season play, I still don't quite understand why they limit football to 8 games.  The one thing it does do, I suppose, is let the kids have a full summer free.  Since they don't start playing until after the middle of September I imagine practice doesn't start until late August. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: mariner75 on March 13, 2006, 05:57:20 am
You are correct.  NESCAC football games start the third Saturday in September so formal practices cannot start not more than 30 days prior to that...
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on April 04, 2006, 11:05:47 pm
I had about a high B, low B+ average in high school, combined with an 1180 on my SATs.  Coach Farley from Williams called me up after I told him "thanks for all of your help and time, but I chose Trinity", and he told me "You are making the biggest mistake of your life".  Screw him, he called my mother and she told him "My son told me he'd feel more comfortable at Trinity the next four years" to which he responded "I hope four years is worth the rest of his life".  Condescending crap, and its completely irrational.  Trinity is still an elite school, and kids go to State schools and end up being doctors, lawyers and politicians.  What a bunch of elitist, gutless pukes.  The type of person who whines and cries all the time instead of getting results is going to be a cubicle jockey the rest of their lives, no matter what school they went to.

My experience: I went through one 5-3 year, and two very tought 4-4 seasons, before our 7-1 season in 2002.  It was ALL coaching and philosophy.  Priore went great lengths to "weed out" all the kids who didn't truly want to treat it as if it were a D-I program, albeit, in no way breaking rules in the process... just a matter of entire dedication year-round to success over the course of 8 games.  The kids who remained on those 4-4 teams and the 7-1 team know exactly how legit and clean Priore's program was.  The only difference is that Trinity naturally can get kids into its school that Williams cannot, because it is not "as elite" as the other NESCAC schools.  However, the advantages go both ways, as those higher-ranked schools usually get the 'tweeners, who are choosing between Trinity and Williams (hence the hole comments about "making biggest mistake of your life"; a gutless puke comment from an elitist who coach I thanked profusely for having me visit, but told him no thank you).  The posters from Trinity here who graduated in my year and in previous years know exactly what I'm talking about.  It took alot of effort and determination to remain on, especially since his approach was so intense.  Kids quit left and right, and the ones who remained stayed because they could take it.

Those were some gritty seasons, and it takes years for a philosophy like Chuck's to kick in.  It is very copmlicated system, particularly in terms of the offensive line's blocking schemes, and the running backs must learn it as well.  Everything is intricate... he makes the running backs know the blocking schemes like the linemen do, and employs a system that I can best compare to the Denver Broncos zone blocking scheme.  This takes a long, long time, and the 7-1 record was largely a result of mixing veterans with experience in the system with young talented players... but still only players who weren't abnormally athletic for the NESCAC.  The ONLY reason Chuck didn't belong in the NESCAC is that he recruited nation-wide (something all the schools could do if they put in the ridiculous amount of time it takes), and he had a vastly superior offensive system compared to the high school offenses employed at other schools.  Look at the players on the roster as a whole, and honestly tell me Trinity has, on the whole, vastly superior athletes.  Not the case.

The offensive line scheme is AMAZING.  I remember how skeptical I was when I got there.  The foot movement didn't make ANY sense AT ALL (taking steps backwards on running plays, pulling without turning your body at all, reading defenses and being expected to know what the RB behind you was going to do, etc.).  I had NO CLUE about how to work within the system until my third year, when I started (I'm not the elite athlete you are referring to, a 5'11" offensive guard).  But I knew the system by then, and that was my strong suit.  I played next to a far superior athlete, size-wise, who was only a sophmore.  But since I knew the system cold, he didn't have to know EVERYTHING about it.  I told him what to do, and he did an outstanding job.  And guess what happened the next year?  He was doing the same for the new starter at guard.  He was a monster by his senior year.  HOWEVER, he was a kid who wouldn't have gotten ANY playing time at Williams.  Just a gritty, big, hardworking kid who bought into the system.

I knew almost all of the kids who starred on the subsequent 8-0 teams in 2003 and 2004.  They weren't supermen, but they were good athletes who bought into Priore's system BIGTIME.  I can't really blame you, because there is no way for you to understand the culture Priore created in and around the football program, INCLUDING an emphasis on getting in players' faces when they aren't getting the job done in the classroom.  Ask some of the older Trinity posters on this site that stuck through it, only to go 4-4 for two seasons while the system took its root and the positive attitude spread throughout the team.  That took dedication, knowing that they were playing out their careers on a team that would eventually rule the league (we knew how good Priore was, and how good the team was going to be, even when we were in the process of losing all 9 or so games he lost in his career!).

There is nothing but sour grapes at play here, and Trinity is the perfect targets for elitist, gutless pukes who wants to blame extreme success on academic standards rather than a winning culture and elite offensive scheme put in place by Priore and the assistant coaches who coached under him.  I can tell you that Priore made it so difficult to play there at first that only truly dedicated players remained.  He also held the practice squad kids in high regard, telling them to give the starters a hard time.

Jealousy and envy, period.  When I was riding the pine for a 5-3 team that got creamed by a Williams team that had a quarterback who had an NFL tryout (Keenan), I didn't sit there and cry about how Williams gets kids like Keenan because they are a better school.  I sat there infuriated and hoped that one day we would be able to beat them, and advantages notwithstanding.

Grow up.  I hope you don't take that loser mentality with you in your professional career.  Step one is not to look for other people to blame.  Be a man and go out there and win.  Unless, of course, you have substantive statistics and/or facts that are indicative of rules being broken at Trinity under Priore.  Got facts?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on April 04, 2006, 11:28:56 pm
EXAMPLE:

I mistated the facts above.  I started only my senior year, not my junior year (just a typo).

Although I followed the offseason conditioning program to a "T" the previous 2 summers under Priore, I went nuts before my senior year, because I knew younger kids were there that Priore wanted to get PT over me (Priore is one honest mother-f'er, he told me I was a very bad athlete and needed to be perfect to start).

Priore and the staff taught us PERFECT power-lifting techniques, and really dug into us when we used bad form.  And the program was amazing.  Our program called for windsprints as a "warmup" to our heavy squat days, including "frog-jumps" for 40 yards, etc.  I spent a ****load of time practicing the very unique (and highly unconventional) offensive line footwork Priore employed (and that Priore promised the team that one day would make us dominant).

I had a job that kept me at work from 3 pm- 9 pm.  It was perfect.  All I did was lift and practice footwork.

Oh, by the way, as a basis of comparison... I saw a starting offensive lineman at Williams at the local gym where I did my powerlifting.  The dude would come into the gym, shoot the sh*t with me for 20 minutes in between my power cleans or squats, then go ride a bike for 20 minutes and peace out.

Don't tell me we are superior athletes that only got in because of lower academic standards.  Trinity kids worked their butts off, and people such as myself, whose penciled-in starting positions were very tenuous (which Priore would point blank tell us at the end of the year meetings "Youre F*ed if you don't have a great summer), didn't treat it as if it were a league slightly better than high school football.

You can't blame kids for treating it like a job, and completely buying into a program.  I am a Jets fan and absolutely abhor the Patriots... but that team mentality takes their decent talent to heights unprecedented in the history of the NFL.

Grow up, you are making opinions based on pure speculation.  The kids I played with (who were part of those 8-0 teams) wouldn't necessarily have started at Williams or Amherst.  They were just good kids and good athletes who played in the system. 

What is most abhorrent about your gutless puke comments is that you base them on speculation when in reality the success is a result is purely based upon a great coaching philosophy combined with the work ethic that Americans used to be proud of.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Ephs1991 on April 05, 2006, 03:39:52 pm
Bant551,

Great posts!  You hit it exactly right.  If teams, Williams included, don't want to work as hard as Trinity then they should just shut the hell up.  People are jealous of others' success and typically will do everything in their power, rather than working hard and being selfless, to try and bring successful people, teams, companies, etc. down.  A good majority of the Williams student body and practically all of the faculty were apparently "embarassed" when we started having some success in the late 80's and early 90's since in their minds you can't have football and academic success.  I love proving them wrong.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on April 05, 2006, 05:20:54 pm
Well put Bant & Ephs. You both made some outstanding points. The only thing I would argue is that Trin's success could be attributed more to the defensive side of the ball than to Priore's offensive line schemes. However, you are 100% correct that the philosophy Priore implemented was responsible for the turn around in the Trin program. Expect more of the same with Devanney.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: chessdoc on April 05, 2006, 05:36:06 pm
Is williams playing Miami this year????.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on April 05, 2006, 07:36:30 pm
Right, I think everyone is forgetting that Trinity broke a very long WILLIAMS streak.  Yes, this type of winning streak is very rare, but other teams have done it.

The style of football Trinity plays, and the dedication of the athletes who don't treat it as an extension of high school football, really makes Trinity an anomaly.

However, it would be ridiculous to blame Trinity for being extremely dedicated, while the other teams don't have that type of hardcore attitude.

Lets be frank here.  Blair was a shoo-in to be a great football player and an all-American wrestler in Division III.  Williams would have gotten him in, easily.  I went to school with a kid who got into Williams who probably was alot worse academically than Blair, and far less of a quality player in those two sports.

Leo was a transfer from Colgate who was obviously going to be a very good player... again, a player Williams would have easily gotten into their school if they recruited him or he wanted to go.

I was not even close to qualified to get into Williams on academic merit, yet they were going to take me on... a 5'11" offensive lineman mind you.  If they'd do that for a 5'11" offensive linemen, you know they are pulling strings.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on April 06, 2006, 08:44:00 am
It's true... I played with Bant551 and he was a miserable athlete!  :D
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on April 06, 2006, 09:38:05 am
Hahaha, that might go to disprove these conspiracy theories about Trinity football! 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: chessdoc on April 06, 2006, 04:24:07 pm
As former nescac players whats ur opinion of quality as compared to say the ivy league???? Also sometimes a few of former players display hostility to trinity. Even though my son will go to one of the other nescac schools in the fall  it appears that having a strong team with tradition only motivates the others to do better??? What am I missing.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on April 06, 2006, 05:20:11 pm
Ivy League quality of education or quality of football?

I'm told by a fellow 'baller who went to Dartmouth that anyone he knew could have gotten B's there, without even trying.  The same is true actually for most schools accross the nation, from what I am told by my friends who went to various different colleges.

As for the level of football, the Ivy's are absolutely a few steps up from Trinity, though probably a few significant steps below playoff I-AA teams.  Somewhere in between the two, though probably closer to I-AA playoff teams than the NESCAC.  And I-AA playoff teams are very, very good football squads, and would crush Ivy's, I think.

So I'd say Ivy's are alot better than NESCACs, but alot worse than the Maines and Hofstras and Delawares of the world (in an average year).
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on April 06, 2006, 05:28:08 pm
Right, I think everyone is forgetting that Trinity broke a very long WILLIAMS streak.  Yes, this type of winning streak is very rare, but other teams have done it.

The style of football Trinity plays, and the dedication of the athletes who don't treat it as an extension of high school football, really makes Trinity an anomaly.

However, it would be ridiculous to blame Trinity for being extremely dedicated, while the other teams don't have that type of hardcore attitude.

Lets be frank here.  Blair was a shoo-in to be a great football player and an all-American wrestler in Division III.  Williams would have gotten him in, easily.  I went to school with a kid who got into Williams who probably was alot worse academically than Blair, and far less of a quality player in those two sports.

Leo was a transfer from Colgate who was obviously going to be a very good player... again, a player Williams would have easily gotten into their school if they recruited him or he wanted to go.

I was not even close to qualified to get into Williams on academic merit, yet they were going to take me on... a 5'11" offensive lineman mind you.  If they'd do that for a 5'11" offensive linemen, you know they are pulling strings.

Bant, I have a son of a friend that wanted to go to a few nescac schools.  Williams told him he needed a 1300, Bowdoin, Trinity and Middlebury all took him with a 1120.  (The kid was herald all-scholastic).  From what I understand Williams has a cutoff of 1300 for the football guys while its 1100 at the other schools that he applied to.  Thats what he was told anyway.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on April 06, 2006, 05:37:55 pm
Interesting.  Things probably have changed since then (almost 6-7 years ago now when I was going on visits).  For whatever reason, Farley thought I would be a good player, and was going to pull me in with an 1180, being only an all-conference high school player, and a short lineman.

They also could be just saying "thanks but no thanks", without having to tell him they like other players better, or that he doesn't fill a need.  But I could also see it being simply related to the passage of time between when I was applying and the present.  Also, Williams might have been telling HIM he needed a 1300, while a monster wouldn't necessarily need that type of score.

I have no clue.  I know alot of kids who went to Williams because of football, and a few of them are most definitely dum-dums, just like everywhere else.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on April 06, 2006, 05:46:11 pm
Yea I think he said that bowdoin could take 15 guys with an 1100 from admissions while Williams could only take 2 with a 1200 and like 5 with a 1250.  I heard that a lot of Williams coaches have lost some battles with admissions over kids they wanted to get in over the last five years.

But your right, if a coach has the guys they want already set with admissions, then thats it.  Even the guy with a 1300 isnt getting into williams after those decisions are done.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Garnet on April 07, 2006, 11:05:34 am
Application numbers are up across the nation making it tougher to get in to any school.

Top Colleges Reject
Record Numbers

Schools Say Surging Applications Produce
Unusually Competitive Year; Stanford Admits 11%

I would post a link to the article in the WSJ from April 5, 2006 but I can't.  Sorry.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: union89 on April 07, 2006, 03:52:55 pm
Garnet ~
U89 figured you were in here to sing Priore praises as well.  U89 has done it too many times....NESCACers were starting to think U89 may be Chaz' relative on something.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: tmerton on April 07, 2006, 07:34:30 pm
Bant, I have a son of a friend that wanted to go to a few nescac schools.  Williams told him he needed a 1300, Bowdoin, Trinity and Middlebury all took him with a 1120.  (The kid was herald all-scholastic).  From what I understand Williams has a cutoff of 1300 for the football guys while its 1100 at the other schools that he applied to.  Thats what he was told anyway.

Williams (Amherst, too, I think) has had to respond institutionally to a lot of anti-football sentiment from students and some alums.  It might well be called "Swarthmore style" sentiment.  Read some of the stuff on the ephblog and you'll get a taste of it.  The result has been a reduction in the number of academic "tips," especially for football I believe, and probably an increase in the minimum standards.   Plus this year has been extremely competitive.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Longtooth on April 07, 2006, 11:02:49 pm
What do you have to get into at williams, bottom line?
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on April 07, 2006, 11:15:13 pm
LT, it depends who you are and what sports you play.

The average student at Williams has about a 1420 SAT (1330-1520 median)

And I heard from some reliable sources that athletic coaches can get about 2- guys around a 1200 and then 10 more aroun 1300.  It helps if you play 2 sports too which several guys do.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Knightstalker on April 07, 2006, 11:32:22 pm
I don't see how schools like Williams and Amherst can look down on football and embrace basketball.  Basketball has a worse image than football in my opinion especially on the "higher" levels.

I've told this before, my nephew went to high school with a kid who was recruited by Williams and got accepted with an SAT under 1000.  I met this kid at my nephews graduation and he wouldn't be able to figure out how to pour sand out of his cleats if the directions were on the sole.  He actually ended up going to Syracuse because they gave him a full ride.  He is now a gym teacher and football coach.

I read the posts and they are no different than posts about schools like Rowan, Mount Union etc which are successful year in and year out.  Fans think there is no possible way they can be that successful without cheating.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on April 08, 2006, 01:42:32 pm
Sometimes crying DOES help.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Garnet on April 10, 2006, 11:42:51 am
Garnet ~
U89 figured you were in here to sing Priore praises as well.  U89 has done it too many times....NESCACers were starting to think U89 may be Chaz' relative on something.

U89,
Chuck does not need me to sing his praises.  His record and all he has accomplished speaks for itself.  He will be successful anywhere he goes because of his work ethic and enthusiasm.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Pat Coleman on April 10, 2006, 03:38:13 pm
You guys see that Stony Brook is going to go for full I-AA scholarship status instead of playing in the NEC?

http://www.newsday.com/sports/outdoors/ny-skcolmain104697266apr10,0,4886616.column?coll=ny-outdoors-headlines
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: bant551 on April 10, 2006, 11:50:21 pm
Yeah, should be interesting to watch.  That is what Hofstra did, starting a decade or two (or in between) ago.  That clearly worked out for them.  I think they were actually D-3 at first.

One of his big qualities is that he doesn't bs much, at all.  He basically flat-out said its going to be a long process and that "score-board wins" are not necessarily going to come right away, especially when they start playing the big boys more often.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: nescac1 on April 11, 2006, 07:43:51 am
knightstalker, I'm not sure when your friend applied to Williams, but there is no way he could have gotten in with less than an 1100, let alone less than a 1000, in the last few years.  Just because someone is recruited doesn't mean they would be accepted by admissions, although maybe this person was and standards have changed significantly.  Farley probably held more sway than perhaps any coach ever at Williams given his legacy of success and the high profile of his sport, but I would be absolutely shocked if any athlete with below a 1200, or at the most 2-3 a year in all sports total, got accepted in today's admissions climate.  Put it this was -- about 2 percent of all students attending Williamd have below a 550 on EITHER section of the SAT.  That is around 11 kids per year.  The odds of any of one of those 11 having below 550 (let alone below 500) on BOTH are pretty darn small.  More likely, they are folks who did poorly on one section but were relatively strong on the other. 

Amherst, which has essentially identical admissions standard to Williams (including in high profile sports like football and basketball -- believe me, whenever one is perceived to favor athletes too much, like Amherst football in the early 90's, you'll hear an outcry from the other) publishes far more detailed statistics:

http://www.amherst.edu/admission/secondaryschoolreport09.pdf

Basically no kids are accepted with below a 500 on EITHER subject, and just a very small handful with a 500-550.  Even 550-600, you are talking just a few kids a year.  And there is no way that all of them are recruited athletes.  Many are probably minorities from disadvantage backgrounds; both W and A place an enormous emphasis on recruiting in that arena and give those candidates even bigger edges than athletes.  And some are probably 800 / 550 types who are math or verbal prodigies.  So basically, from every single sport combined, you are talking about, maybe, 5-15 kids a year, total, in the 1200's, with none below that level.  Maybe it was different in the past, but Amherst and Williams have really restricted so-called "low band" admits since around four-five years ago. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Knightstalker on April 11, 2006, 11:06:12 am
NESCAC1 is was probably about seven or eight years ago when this kid got accepted, they really wanted this kid, he would have been a D-III road grater he was that big, strong and good.  He did well at Syracuse, they discovered a learning disability that was missed, he actually wasn't as dumb as I made him out, but he had no common sense, still doesn't.  He is a good kid though.

Amherst may have extremely high standards but a degree can basically be bought by an alum for their children.  I do know someone who is a lazy, useless and stupid SOB who has a degree from Amherst because Daddy donated a boatload of money to Amherst which suddenly accepted his son and he graduated with hardly ever going to class.  A wasted spot and degree that could have been given to someone who deserved and earned it.  These are the things I really have a problem with.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Nescacfan05 on April 11, 2006, 06:18:00 pm
Nescac1 Amherst has have taken students below 1200....everyone in the league has, some have more flex than others. Both Amherst and Williams have the ability to dip farther than most because they will get a 1600 SAT kid to offset the low band. As for Trinity, yes they get more low band kids than  most, but good for them, they had a coach who demanded that and got it, anyone else would get those same kids if they could....Every team has 'dipped' and Amherst and Williams do so as much as anyone if not more so, because they are supposed to have higher standards....Not to say they shouldn't, I am saying it does happen that they do dip for a below 1200 guy
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on April 11, 2006, 07:04:57 pm
Nescac1 Amherst has have taken students below 1200....everyone in the league has, some have more flex than others. Both Amherst and Williams have the ability to dip farther than most because they will get a 1600 SAT kid to offset the low band. As for Trinity, yes they get more low band kids than  most, but good for them, they had a coach who demanded that and got it, anyone else would get those same kids if they could....Every team has 'dipped' and Amherst and Williams do so as much as anyone if not more so, because they are supposed to have higher standards....Not to say they shouldn't, I am saying it does happen that they do dip for a below 1200 guy

nescacfan05 your wrong, williams and amherst do not dip below that level as much as other teams do.  At least not now they dont.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: tmerton on April 11, 2006, 08:04:54 pm
Nescac1 Amherst has have taken students below 1200....everyone in the league has, some have more flex than others. Both Amherst and Williams have the ability to dip farther than most because they will get a 1600 SAT kid to offset the low band. As for Trinity, yes they get more low band kids than  most, but good for them, they had a coach who demanded that and got it, anyone else would get those same kids if they could....Every team has 'dipped' and Amherst and Williams do so as much as anyone if not more so, because they are supposed to have higher standards....Not to say they shouldn't, I am saying it does happen that they do dip for a below 1200 guy

nescacfan05 your wrong, williams and amherst do not dip below that level as much as other teams do.  At least not now they dont.

In the last five years or so Williams and Amherst have tightened their admissions standards for athletes, especially for football.  I believe they've both reduced the number of "tips" by about 10.   A good number of students and faculty apparently would be pleased if the schools pulled "a Swarthmore" and dropped fb altogether.  That won't happen, but fb is clearly under the microscope at those schools and a football player who was accepted 5 years ago would certainly not necessarily get in today.  Of course, like the Ivies, it's tougher to get in than to stay in.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on April 11, 2006, 09:47:50 pm
I thought that the number of "Tips" is limited by the conference?  Someone posted the formula about them before....something like 2 for every Varsity Sport the College fields, plus an extra 15 or so for Football and I think a few more for Ice Hockey.

I'm not sure though.  If it is true, does that mean that Williams and Amherst use fewer tips than the rest of the conference willingly?? 

And if they are doing that on their own (again, I don't know what the deal is) then the rest of the NESCAC schools should not be looked down upon for following the rules handed down to them by the conference.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: union89 on April 12, 2006, 12:46:23 am
Nescac1 Amherst has have taken students below 1200....everyone in the league has, some have more flex than others. Both Amherst and Williams have the ability to dip farther than most because they will get a 1600 SAT kid to offset the low band. As for Trinity, yes they get more low band kids than  most, but good for them, they had a coach who demanded that and got it, anyone else would get those same kids if they could....Every team has 'dipped' and Amherst and Williams do so as much as anyone if not more so, because they are supposed to have higher standards....Not to say they shouldn't, I am saying it does happen that they do dip for a below 1200 guy

nescacfan05 your wrong, williams and amherst do not dip below that level as much as other teams do.  At least not now they dont.

If JU (a fellow BoSox fan) says it is so....it must be true and U89 believes it to be Gospel.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on April 12, 2006, 09:26:49 am
I thought that the number of "Tips" is limited by the conference?  Someone posted the formula about them before....something like 2 for every Varsity Sport the College fields, plus an extra 15 or so for Football and I think a few more for Ice Hockey.

I'm not sure though.  If it is true, does that mean that Williams and Amherst use fewer tips than the rest of the conference willingly?? 

And if they are doing that on their own (again, I don't know what the deal is) then the rest of the NESCAC schools should not be looked down upon for following the rules handed down to them by the conference.

There are no rules set up by the nescac regarding each schools admission policies/financial aid packages.  Each school can do what they want.  Each nescac school basically does it the same though in terms of kids coaches can ask admissions to lower the bar for.  Williams (and probably amherst) have raised the bar in recent years.  (thats what coaches have told me anyway.)
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: tmerton on April 12, 2006, 11:09:19 am
Here's a 2002 article from the Chronicle of Higher Education giving some background to the situation at Williams (specifically) and the NESCAC in general.

http://chronicle.com/free/v48/i26/26a03701.htm
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Ephs1991 on April 12, 2006, 11:16:21 am
Tips don't really mean much unless you have a hard working coaching staff and players to back it up.

I guess that's what offends me so much about places like my alma mater, they preach a lot of crap about diversity and accepting all points of view and people from different backgrounds.  What they are is a bunch of elitist pukes who think the only qualification of a student that matters are the scores on a standardized test, which can be improved by paying for the right prep course anyway.  I can't speak for other schools, but I've seen this attitude only get worse at Williams in the last decade or so.  God how I would love for the faculty at these places to actually have to go out and find a real job.

I've met some alums that played for Wesleyan and I feel for those guys, it sounds like they are constantly under siege at that place.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Knightstalker on April 12, 2006, 11:31:45 am
Standardized test scores should only be a small factor in acceptance to a college in my opinion.  My one brother had poor SAT's because he is one of those types that always got uptight about tests, but would ace pop quizzes and test all the time.  He was a better student than my other brother and I because he had to work to remember things and learn.  My other brother and I always learned quickly and retained the info, our problem was we felt like we were wasting our time relearning things or having to take time to explain them to everyone.

My point is I am sure any reasonably intelligent HS graduate could probably succeed in any college or university if they were motivated, paid attention and did their work.  I think that many top schools it is not what you know but who your family knows and the size of their charitable contributions. 
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on April 12, 2006, 01:58:49 pm
Here's a 2002 article from the Chronicle of Higher Education giving some background to the situation at Williams (specifically) and the NESCAC in general.

http://chronicle.com/free/v48/i26/26a03701.htm

Thats a good article, this was the quote that I was looking for:

"Williams, Amherst, and Wesleyan all agreed to cut their tips to 66 per year. For Williams, this decreased the number of recruits by six, from 72. Bowdoin also has announced plans to reduce athlete admissions, without being so specific."



Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Trin8-0 on April 12, 2006, 02:42:52 pm
If it's true that Williams, Amherst and Wesleyan use only 6 fewer tips per year than the rest of the NESCAC I don't think they are at that much of a disadvantage.

Of those 6 probably 1, maybe 2 would have been used for football. NESCAC football rosters have 75 players! 1 or 2 kids each year is not going to have that much of an impact.

I maintain that Trinity has had more recruiting success, not because they have 1 or 2 more tips per year, but because the admission requirements for ALL students is less stringent that that of Williams, Amherst and Wesleyan. That, coupled with the fact that they have begun to recruit nationally and that Trinity is a very appealing school for athletes gives them advantages.

I have no problem admitting that the average student at Wil, Amh, and Wes are more academically qualified than an average Trin student. Numbers are numbers and facts are facts... however, that does not necessarily have a correlation to the members of these respective football teams. And to say that Trinity dominates because they are cheating to get dumb football players into school is absurd.
Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: formerbant10 on April 13, 2006, 09:54:23 am
I thought that the number of "Tips" is limited by the conference?  Someone posted the formula about them before....something like 2 for every Varsity Sport the College fields, plus an extra 15 or so for Football and I think a few more for Ice Hockey.

I'm not sure though.  If it is true, does that mean that Williams and Amherst use fewer tips than the rest of the conference willingly?? 

And if they are doing that on their own (again, I don't know what the deal is) then the rest of the NESCAC schools should not be looked down upon for following the rules handed down to them by the conference.

There are no rules set up by the nescac regarding each schools admission policies/financial aid packages. Each school can do what they want. Each nescac school basically does it the same though in terms of kids coaches can ask admissions to lower the bar for. Williams (and probably amherst) have raised the bar in recent years. (thats what coaches have told me anyway.)

Utah, I wasn't saying that the NESCAC gives you the exact number of tips you can use, but set a bar that tips can't go over.  That seems to be what this article infers as well. 

Has anyone else read the books by Shulman and Bowen.  They're ridiculous!  All of their information is greatly skewed to make it seem like the "helmet" sports and basketball teams are made up of neanderthals.  They then go on to show that athletes do have a difference in GPA, the difference being a 3.3 (non-athlete) to a 3.0.  A "B+" to a "B" is what they are screaming murder about.  It's absurd and should piss off any scholar athlete that went to a NESCAC school. 

Title: Re: New England Small College Athletic Conference
Post by: Jonny Utah on April 13, 2006, 03:55:27 pm
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