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Post Patterns (Division III football) => General football => Topic started by: Ron Boerger on October 13, 2017, 09:46:42 am

Title: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 13, 2017, 09:46:42 am
Whaa?   The NCAA approved a championship before the city actually signed off on it?

https://communityimpact.com/guides/houston/the-woodlands/news/city-county/2017/10/12/ncaa-division-iii-football-championships-police-department-equipment-6-takeaways-shenandoah-city-council-meeting-oct-11/

Council opted to table the approval of the contracts to host the 2018 and 2019 NCAA Division III football championships.
The city’s estimated expenditure to host the 2018 championship is $254,000, including a cost of $24,500 to reserve the stadium, according to a quote from a prior year. The event would take place in December 2018 and would be funded out of the city’s fiscal year 2018-19 budget.

“It would be a huge undertaking for the city,” said Steffani Konzem, Shenandoah’s Convention and Visitors Bureau Tourism Marketing Specialist.

Council chose to table the approval and will continue to discuss the contract at future meetings.

The council likewise decided to table the approval of the contract for the 2019 championship as well.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 13, 2017, 10:03:08 am
The comment about this being a "huge undertaking" is enlightening and should have been taken into consideration prior to the NCAA awarding a contract to a town whose annual city budget is roughly a tenth or less of Salem's.   
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 13, 2017, 11:24:27 am
This Texan has always been wary of any city in Texas being able to pull off a "Salem Stagg Bowl".
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wally_wabash on October 13, 2017, 11:25:21 am
(https://i.giphy.com/media/l3q2K5jinAlChoCLS/200w.gif)
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wesleydad on October 13, 2017, 02:54:38 pm
Wow, just wow.  Change for the sake of change.  If this is true and they dont want the game the NCAA looks like a fool again.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on October 13, 2017, 03:16:26 pm
just move it to Canton next year.  The Stagg Bowl isn't going anywhere once it comes to Canton.  Putting the Stagg Bowl in Texas was incredibly stupid to begin with
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wally_wabash on October 13, 2017, 03:55:40 pm
just move it to Canton next year.  The Stagg Bowl isn't going anywhere once it comes to Canton.  Putting the Stagg Bowl in Texas was incredibly stupid to begin with

Is this informed, or are you just saying because Ohio football rules and everybody else can pound sand? 

I think it was fairly clear that the NCAA intends to bounce their championships around from place to place as a matter of policy.  Canton, if they do a good job, can certainly host the game again in the future, but I think there are super long odds against Canton being the new Salem.  I just don't think they want a new Salem. 

The one exception being the NCAA D1 baseball championship in Omaha.  I think that's the one that is safe.  Everything else though is going to be bid out and moving around on the regular.   
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 13, 2017, 09:55:11 pm
IF Shenandoah backs out, can Canton even be ready less than 14 months from now?  I don't recall if their stadium is even built yet?  Anyone?

Since several other D3 championships are held (at least off-and-on) in Salem, I would guess that neither Salem nor the NCAA has burned any bridges.  So would Salem be the logical Plan B if Shenandoah reneges?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 13, 2017, 10:24:22 pm
IF Shenandoah backs out, can Canton even be ready less than 14 months from now?  I don't recall if their stadium is even built yet?  Anyone?

Since several other D3 championships are held (at least off-and-on) in Salem, I would guess that neither Salem nor the NCAA has burned any bridges.  So would Salem be the logical Plan B if Shenandoah reneges?

Salem has stepped in before for other sports, I'm sure they'd be happy to do so for football if this apparently slapdash deal in Shenandoah falls through.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on October 15, 2017, 10:05:47 am
IF Shenandoah backs out, can Canton even be ready less than 14 months from now?  I don't recall if their stadium is even built yet?  Anyone?

Since several other D3 championships are held (at least off-and-on) in Salem, I would guess that neither Salem nor the NCAA has burned any bridges.  So would Salem be the logical Plan B if Shenandoah reneges?

the stadium is 99% done and my is it incredible.  High school and college games are taking place every weekend and the OH High School championship games are going to be held there this year.

What they are working on most now is the construction of the hotel/conference center that will be on campus

just move it to Canton next year.  The Stagg Bowl isn't going anywhere once it comes to Canton.  Putting the Stagg Bowl in Texas was incredibly stupid to begin with

Is this informed, or are you just saying because Ohio football rules and everybody else can pound sand? 

I think it was fairly clear that the NCAA intends to bounce their championships around from place to place as a matter of policy.  Canton, if they do a good job, can certainly host the game again in the future, but I think there are super long odds against Canton being the new Salem.  I just don't think they want a new Salem. 

The one exception being the NCAA D1 baseball championship in Omaha.  I think that's the one that is safe.  Everything else though is going to be bid out and moving around on the regular.   

well, OH football does in fact rule.  But that really doesn't have much to do with it.  No other city will be able to match what Canton will have when the HOF Village is complete.  State of the art stadium, a four star hotel and conference center, an indoor practice facility, eight outdoor practice fields, and all of that would be on one campus.  Not too mention the explosion of other hotels in the area due to being a tourist location for the HOF.  The HOF is building a beautiful football facility in the heart of the D3 football world.  Nothing against Salem, but they just can't compete with NFL dollars. 

http://www.profootballhof.com/jcihofvillage/
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 16, 2017, 10:39:06 am
IF Shenandoah backs out, can Canton even be ready less than 14 months from now?  I don't recall if their stadium is even built yet?  Anyone?

Since several other D3 championships are held (at least off-and-on) in Salem, I would guess that neither Salem nor the NCAA has burned any bridges.  So would Salem be the logical Plan B if Shenandoah reneges?

Salem has stepped in before for other sports, I'm sure they'd be happy to do so for football if this apparently slapdash deal in Shenandoah falls through.

Indeed, Salem has stepped in on several occasions. Last year was a testament to that when they hosted DIII soccer championships (both genders) and a DII conference football championship on about two or three-months or less warning. I am sure that if parts of the Canton set-up are not ready, Salem would be asked (with the NCAA's tail between it's legs) if they can assist.

merlecanlas - while I understand your enthusiasm for Canton, but wally is correct. The NCAA has clearly indicated one city for a championship for the foreeable future isn't going to fly. If they did reward Canton for the forseeable future, they essentially would be caught in a lie. The entire reason Salem was pushed out was because of, what I believe, a made up excuse that the championships "have" to move around and not be in one place. There are only two sports where they will spend the next four years in one place: soccer who I learned made that decision on their own to keep them in Greensboro and basketball who I was told was forced to choose one city (they originally had other ideas on the table that their liaison and others at the NCAA did not approve of). Canton might be great and may have NFL money behind it, but the NCAA will have a lot of explaining to do, possibly in court, if they suddenly put stakes in Canton and never moved.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on October 16, 2017, 11:04:03 am
IF Shenandoah backs out, can Canton even be ready less than 14 months from now?  I don't recall if their stadium is even built yet?  Anyone?

Since several other D3 championships are held (at least off-and-on) in Salem, I would guess that neither Salem nor the NCAA has burned any bridges.  So would Salem be the logical Plan B if Shenandoah reneges?

Salem has stepped in before for other sports, I'm sure they'd be happy to do so for football if this apparently slapdash deal in Shenandoah falls through.

Indeed, Salem has stepped in on several occasions. Last year was a testament to that when they hosted DIII soccer championships (both genders) and a DII conference football championship on about two or three-months or less warning. I am sure that if parts of the Canton set-up are not ready, Salem would be asked (with the NCAA's tail between it's legs) if they can assist.

merlecanlas - while I understand your enthusiasm for Canton, but wally is correct. The NCAA has clearly indicated one city for a championship for the foreeable future isn't going to fly. If they did reward Canton for the forseeable future, they essentially would be caught in a lie. The entire reason Salem was pushed out was because of, what I believe, a made up excuse that the championships "have" to move around and not be in one place. There are only two sports where they will spend the next four years in one place: soccer who I learned made that decision on their own to keep them in Greensboro and basketball who I was told was forced to choose one city (they originally had other ideas on the table that their liaison and others at the NCAA did not approve of). Canton might be great and may have NFL money behind it, but the NCAA will have a lot of explaining to do, possibly in court, if they suddenly put stakes in Canton and never moved.

are you trying to say that the NCAA is an honest institution and never lies or backtracks on statements?  ok.  Rotate the Stagg Bowl between Canton and Salem, but leave TX out of it. Give the NCAA three or four years and they will change their minds
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wally_wabash on October 16, 2017, 01:30:53 pm
Also yet to be seen is whether or not the Stagg Bowl in Canton will draw.  What happens if Mount Union doesn't play in that game?  You can't just plop this game into a densely populated area and assume 20,000 people are going to go just because it's there.  D3 football is a niche, even in D3-heavy areas. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on October 16, 2017, 01:49:40 pm
Also yet to be seen is whether or not the Stagg Bowl in Canton will draw.  What happens if Mount Union doesn't play in that game?  You can't just plop this game into a densely populated area and assume 20,000 people are going to go just because it's there.  D3 football is a niche, even in D3-heavy areas.

20,000 people would be an incredible, never seen before Stagg Bowl.  They actually have the stadium set up now for far smaller crowds, with the upper deck tarped with sponsors (NCAA will love that).

Canton is not a densely populated area, that would be Houston, where there might be two garbage Stagg Bowls filled with random people who get free tickets and some other incentives to actually show up.  But I would guarantee a WIAC-MIAC Stagg Bowl in Canton would outdraw the same teams in Texas or Virginia.  Or name 80-90% of the D3 conferences,  they are all almost far closer to Canton than Salem, or Texas.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: emma17 on October 16, 2017, 02:01:49 pm
Interesting discussion. I'm only one passionate D3 fan, but here's my take.
I've driven to VA w family and friends many times for the Stagg and wouldn't hesitate to go again. I loved the stadium and the towns. I'd certainly do the same if it were in Canton.
Texas? That's tough. Now we are talking flights.
If my team was in the TX Stagg I'd likely buy the tix the first time. However, if it became a repeat situation like it was w UWW and Mt, I'd likely not attend every year.

The new Canton complex looks beautiful.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: jknezek on October 16, 2017, 02:07:00 pm
As an ODAC guy I'm sad Salem is out, but I've always maintained that the facility in Canton is a beautiful fit. It would be even better if the game shifted back to Saturday, making it a bit warmer and easier to get to and back, but that is probably true for all locations.

As for Texas, I thought it was stupid then, I think it's still stupid now. You don't go away from your fans. Sure if UMHB or HSU makes it, it'll be fine. Probably be fine the first year anyway. After that? I don't think there is any staying power. There are a lot of football fans in AL just like there are in TX. This state is football nuts, but BSC and Huntingdon don't fill their stadiums just because it's football. D3 just isn't on the radar, even in these any football is good football areas.

It takes time to build the local following, and moving it around every year or couple years ensures that never happens.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 16, 2017, 02:09:23 pm
I think that in an instance where the committee probably felt it *had* to go somewhere for two years before it was secure Canton was ready, why not give Texas a shot? Goodness knows Texas gets the short end of the stick in a lot of D-III hosting and bracketing policies.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: smedindy on October 16, 2017, 02:12:57 pm
I think that in an instance where the committee probably felt it *had* to go somewhere for two years before it was secure Canton was ready, why not give Texas a shot? Goodness knows Texas gets the short end of the stick in a lot of D-III hosting and bracketing policies.

Same could be said about the Pacific NW and California.

I would LOL if they played the Stagg Bowl in the stadium where the Chargers are playing now, and the Stagg Bowl outdrew them....
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on October 16, 2017, 02:15:00 pm
As an ODAC guy I'm sad Salem is out, but I've always maintained that the facility in Canton is a beautiful fit. It would be even better if the game shifted back to Saturday, making it a bit warmer and easier to get to and back, but that is probably true for all locations.

As for Texas, I thought it was stupid then, I think it's still stupid now. You don't go away from your fans. Sure if UMHB or HSU makes it, it'll be fine. Probably be fine the first year anyway. After that? I don't think there is any staying power. There are a lot of football fans in AL just like there are in TX. This state is football nuts, but BSC and Huntingdon don't fill their stadiums just because it's football. D3 just isn't on the radar, even in these any football is good football areas.

It takes time to build the local following, and moving it around every year or couple years ensures that never happens.

not too mention the Stagg Bowl will be competing with the state semi-finals in TX high school football.  I can only imagine what those draw.

I think that in an instance where the committee probably felt it *had* to go somewhere for two years before it was secure Canton was ready, why not give Texas a shot? Goodness knows Texas gets the short end of the stick in a lot of D-III hosting and bracketing policies.

 If Shenandoah is getting cold feet, just pull it and give Salem at least one more year and possible two if there are concerns about Canton being ready with the hotel, indoor, etc etc.   
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 16, 2017, 02:19:06 pm
Until Shenandoah makes a decision, it's kind of a moot point, but the AA might want to give them a deadline rather than let this drag on past the end of this season - and revise their protocol so this kind of crap doesn't happen (in any sport) again.

Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on October 16, 2017, 02:27:25 pm
Until Shenandoah makes a decision, it's kind of a moot point, but the AA might want to give them a deadline rather than let this drag on past the end of this season - and revise their protocol so this kind of crap doesn't happen (in any sport) again.

no joke.  I hadn't even thought about the ramifications for all of the other NCAA championship moves if they let Shenendoah dance around with this for a while.  This really can't linger, only 14 months from the next Stagg Bowl
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on October 16, 2017, 02:39:18 pm
I think that in an instance where the committee probably felt it *had* to go somewhere for two years before it was secure Canton was ready, why not give Texas a shot? Goodness knows Texas gets the short end of the stick in a lot of D-III hosting and bracketing policies.

I assume you would have mentioned it Pat but have their been any official updates to the blurb that caused these posts?

I will admit that as a Texan I had my doubts about the Stagg Bowl coming to Texas but it seems that we may be jumping the gun here based on one quote and something that was items 16 and 17 on a city council agenda.

Looking at the quote, yes it will be an huge undertaking but it was/is in Salem and it will be in Canton. A lot of things are huge undertakings that doesn't mean they don't get done, it just means the Shenandoah Convention and Visitors Bureau Tourism Marketing Specialist will be more over worked that she already is.

Also I feel it is important to point out that the article states that the mayor of Shenandoah wasn't even at the meeting. Now he probably doesn't have too much pull or power but his absence may have been a reason they tabled the discussion. They also tabled the approval of their own Communication Policy but I am guessing that will get done.


 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wally_wabash on October 16, 2017, 02:52:35 pm
The person behind the bid (or at least the designated spokesperson for the deal) seemed to reiterate over and over how bad Shenandoah wanted to get into business with the NCAA and with Division III championships specifically.  Tabling approval of contracts AFTER the bid has already been awarded by the NCAA isn't a great move.  Maybe it's procedural formality or whatever, but it isn't a good look for the city or for the NCAA. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on October 16, 2017, 03:03:25 pm
The person behind the bid (or at least the designated spokesperson for the deal) seemed to reiterate over and over how bad Shenandoah wanted to get into business with the NCAA and with Division III championships specifically.  Tabling approval of contracts AFTER the bid has already been awarded by the NCAA isn't a great move.  Maybe it's procedural formality or whatever, but it isn't a good look for the city or for the NCAA.

If it was a procedural formality, the city/NCAA may not have realized that a fairly insignificant blurb on one website would cause a disturbance.

Don't get me wrong this may be a big deal, but until something official is announced it just seems like we are worrying about nothing. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on October 16, 2017, 03:21:35 pm
sounds like more speculating on how to salvage a horrible decision by the NCAA, rather than worrying
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on October 16, 2017, 03:45:46 pm
sounds like more speculating on how to salvage a horrible decision by the NCAA, rather than worrying

I am curious, what makes you know this is a horrible decision?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on October 16, 2017, 03:55:22 pm
sounds like more speculating on how to salvage a horrible decision by the NCAA, rather than worrying

I am curious, what makes you know this is a horrible decision?

putting a championship game in a place which requires 99% of teams to fly to attend ($$$).  So you will have a small amount of support with a weeks notice.  The local support will be challenged by the Texas high school football playoffs going on at the exact same time.  It's nothing against Texas, it would be dumb to put the Stagg Bowl in Los Angeles or Seattle as well as Houston.  I'd love to hear the positives for hosting in Houston without you saying the word weather.  D3 student athletes deserve better than to work all year long to play a championship game in front of nearly zero of their fans.

If there are second guesses by Shenandoah, then the NCAA should do the right thing and pull it back to Salem
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wally_wabash on October 16, 2017, 04:26:19 pm
D3 student athletes deserve better than to work all year long to play a championship game in front of nearly zero of their fans.

Again, we don't know that a Canton Stagg Bowl that doesn't feature Mount Union is going to draw fans.  We just can't know that until it happens. 

Also, a Canton Stagg Bowl that does feature Mount Union will be in no way controversial because nobody ever thinks that the NCAA bends over backward to benefit Mount Union football in the postseason.  There are, like, zero posts on this site that say something to that effect. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on October 16, 2017, 04:36:09 pm
D3 student athletes deserve better than to work all year long to play a championship game in front of nearly zero of their fans.

Again, we don't know that a Canton Stagg Bowl that doesn't feature Mount Union is going to draw fans.  We just can't know that until it happens. 

Also, a Canton Stagg Bowl that does feature Mount Union will be in no way controversial because nobody ever thinks that the NCAA bends over backward to benefit Mount Union football in the postseason.  There are, like, zero posts on this site that say something to that effect.

again, Canton is centrally located to the vast majority of D3 schools.  Within driving distance even!!  and if one of the few far away schools makes it to the Stagg Bowl, there is an airport three or four exits up the road. 

The NCAA absolutely favors Mount, it was just a fun exercise to put them on the road for every playoff game.  I think you should figure out how many past Stagg Bowl participants are within driving distance of Shenandoah and compare that vs the number that were within driving distance of Canton. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: AO on October 16, 2017, 04:42:24 pm
sounds like more speculating on how to salvage a horrible decision by the NCAA, rather than worrying

I am curious, what makes you know this is a horrible decision?

putting a championship game in a place which requires 99% of teams to fly to attend ($$$).  So you will have a small amount of support with a weeks notice.  The local support will be challenged by the Texas high school football playoffs going on at the exact same time.  It's nothing against Texas, it would be dumb to put the Stagg Bowl in Los Angeles or Seattle as well as Houston.  I'd love to hear the positives for hosting in Houston without you saying the word weather.  D3 student athletes deserve better than to work all year long to play a championship game in front of nearly zero of their fans.

If there are second guesses by Shenandoah, then the NCAA should do the right thing and pull it back to Salem
Climate
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: smedindy on October 16, 2017, 04:55:59 pm
Quite a few schools have to fly to Salem, too.

It's about 625 miles or so from Chicago. A little shy of 500 from Indianapolis. A little over 500 from Ann Arbor, MI.

Both UMHB and WI-Oshkosh couldn't drive there.

How many UMHB and Oshkosh fans were at this year's Stagg Bowl?

Moving it to Canton just shifts the burden some - it's still over 550 miles from Oshkosh to Canton.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on October 16, 2017, 04:56:44 pm
sounds like more speculating on how to salvage a horrible decision by the NCAA, rather than worrying

I am curious, what makes you know this is a horrible decision?

putting a championship game in a place which requires 99% of teams to fly to attend ($$$).  So you will have a small amount of support with a weeks notice.  The local support will be challenged by the Texas high school football playoffs going on at the exact same time.  It's nothing against Texas, it would be dumb to put the Stagg Bowl in Los Angeles or Seattle as well as Houston.  I'd love to hear the positives for hosting in Houston without you saying the word weather.  D3 student athletes deserve better than to work all year long to play a championship game in front of nearly zero of their fans.

If there are second guesses by Shenandoah, then the NCAA should do the right thing and pull it back to Salem

Every team in the Stagg Bowl since 2004 (admittedly a small list) has had to fly except for Mount Union. Fans of the UW schools had about 13 hours of drive time, St. Thomas fans had a 16 hour drive, UMHB is 18, and if you were truly crazy you drove from Linfield which was 41 hours. Yes the drives are even longer for the UW's and St. Thomas to get to Texas but the point is both locations make you drive a crazy amount of time to get to if you aren't on the team flight.

In terms of local support, I won't pretend to be able to tell how much support there will be. The Texas high school football playoffs will be going on but it is the semi-finals weekend so while those games do bring in a big crowd its not going up against the championship weekend which is what draws the huge crowds.



Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 16, 2017, 04:58:17 pm
Interesting discussion. I'm only one passionate D3 fan, but here's my take.
I've driven to VA w family and friends many times for the Stagg and wouldn't hesitate to go again. I loved the stadium and the towns. I'd certainly do the same if it were in Canton.
Texas? That's tough. Now we are talking flights.
If my team was in the TX Stagg I'd likely buy the tix the first time. However, if it became a repeat situation like it was w UWW and Mt, I'd likely not attend every year.

The new Canton complex looks beautiful.
Fortunately Shenendoah is close to Houston Bush IAH so flights can be cheap (or fly into Hobby on Southwest and rent a car).
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 16, 2017, 05:03:15 pm
Six-day advance fares are never "cheap" anywhere, though.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: albatross on October 16, 2017, 05:20:28 pm
There is no way to know just how much Texas HS FB semis will detract from viewership because those games could be anywhere at the time. There's no guarantee of a specifically Houston-area game just yet. Now, a Houston team might be in the playoffs but it could be a "neutral" site or away site far away depending on coin flips and such...
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 16, 2017, 05:34:08 pm
As an ODAC guy I'm sad Salem is out, but I've always maintained that the facility in Canton is a beautiful fit. It would be even better if the game shifted back to Saturday, making it a bit warmer and easier to get to and back, but that is probably true for all locations.

For the record, the games have been on Friday evening to give them a brighter spotlight. IMHO and many others who made the decision, better to have the game on ESPNU in primetime than on ESPNU or maybe ESPN2 at 12pm on a Saturday - buried by a lot of other games. It was actually the blizzard that delayed the game and made it primetime that revealed it might be better on a Friday night instead of a Saturday afternoon.

again, Canton is centrally located to the vast majority of D3 schools.  Within driving distance even!!  and if one of the few far away schools makes it to the Stagg Bowl, there is an airport three or four exits up the road. 

The NCAA absolutely favors Mount, it was just a fun exercise to put them on the road for every playoff game.  I think you should figure out how many past Stagg Bowl participants are within driving distance of Shenandoah and compare that vs the number that were within driving distance of Canton. 

This is not a proven fact, though. People love to say that games being "centrally" located will automatically draw crowds... but it has never been proven. There are plenty of championships in other locations around the country and many have been "centrally" located. Women's basketball has been in Hope and Calvin and the crowds have been... eh. Not even close to the crowds men's basketball brings in at a non-centrally located place by the definition thrown around here. It is wonderful to think that because the game is "closer" to some schools that suddenly crowds will show up... but who exactly is coming? If ones team isn't in the game, are a lot of fans suddenly going to get in their car and head to the game? Sure, the schools involved might have more of their fans coming, but they also might have the exact same number showing up in Salem. Usually, climbing on a bus is climbing on a bus ... period. (I would know. I spent an entire year of my life traveling on a bus before spending my collegiate life doing more of the same.)

I get the idea that games in Canton, Fort Wayne (basketball), and other locations seem to be perfect because they are "centrally" located, but I have yet to see the proof in the pudding and, to be honest, I am not holding my breathe that suddenly there will be a leap in attendance for these events. Let's wait and see, but especially in DIII the attendance is more related to those playing not where the games are located.

And yes... Texas may have the toughest chance to bring in fans .. but maybe they surprise everyone and this theory is all out of wack.

Keep in mind: soccer is in Greensboro, North Carolina. Had a lot more "centrally" located places to go, but sometimes that idea just doesn't hold any water for the committees.

BTW - love the comment that the NW part of the country and California are just as screwed as Texas. The only difference: no bids from those other two locales. :)
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on October 16, 2017, 06:00:11 pm
I'm an absolute Canton homer, and I am stoked for the chance to show off on D3's biggest stage.  I think we will put on quite the show.  Getting back to the original topic, I think that Shenandoah was an iffy choice to being with and now if there are financial issues, it raises quite the red flag.  I guess we will see at the 10/15 council meeting. 

If Mount goes to the two Stagg Bowls in Texas, I will likely be driving or finding a "cheap" flight to be down there. 

What a year for D3FB so far, tons of topics to discuss
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 18, 2017, 12:56:20 pm
I'm an absolute Canton homer, and I am stoked for the chance to show off on D3's biggest stage.  I think we will put on quite the show.  Getting back to the original topic, I think that Shenandoah was an iffy choice to being with and now if there are financial issues, it raises quite the red flag.  I guess we will see at the 10/15 council meeting. 

If Mount goes to the two Stagg Bowls in Texas, I will likely be driving or finding a "cheap" flight to be down there. 

What a year for D3FB so far, tons of topics to discuss

I get your homerism... but that has led to some rather large assumptions. :)

Per the Shenandoah decision, let's pump the brakes just a bit. The board tabled discussion of approving a quarter-of-a-million dollars in spending until their next meeting. Let's see how that meeting goes. If they table it again or they shoot down the spending, then we have a discussion to be had. I am sure the NCAA has approved sites on many occasions where the city spending hasn't been approved. Some of these things are set many years in advance that boards don't have the ability to even consider the spending that far out. It is a topic to note and discuss, but I think calling it "iffy" and saying there are financial issues is a reach. They simply haven't rubber stamped something. Let them work on it on their own. If it is a bigger deal, we will find out. There is still time to work on this.

And good luck finding cheap flights with less than a week's notice. ;)
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on October 24, 2017, 02:30:10 pm
I listened to the Shenandoah City Council meeting from 10/11:

https://ucs.shenandoahtx.us/owncloud/index.php/s/sNMjdKLxdDpM2m8

give 01:04:00 to 01:15:00 a listen and see how excited they sound.    That meeting tomorrow should be informative
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 24, 2017, 03:11:59 pm
I listened to the Shenandoah City Council meeting from 10/11:

https://ucs.shenandoahtx.us/owncloud/index.php/s/sNMjdKLxdDpM2m8

give 01:04:00 to 01:15:00 a listen and see how excited they sound.    That meeting tomorrow should be informative

It's Item 10 on tomorrow's agenda (https://www.egovlink.com/public_documents300/shenandoah/published_documents/Government/City Council/Agendas/2017/102517 City Council Agenda Pack.pdf):

10. Discussion and possible action to approve a contract for the 2018 NCAA Division III football championships.

From the agenda packet:

Quote
In a letter dated July 27, 2016, the City notified the NCAA of its intention to provide bids for football (Amos Alonzo Stagg Bowl) for the years 2018-2022. The City was awarded the bid for 2018. The NCAA has sent an agreement outlining the terms and conditions associated with the hosting of this event. Initially, the City submitted the bid with the intention of covering all expenses associated with the event, however, will now be deferring the cost of the following to NCAA:
• Transportation and per diem reimbursement for participating teams;
• Transportation, lodging, per diem, and game fee for all officials;
• Transportation, lodging, and per diem for the NCAA sport committee;
• Game balls;
• Awards;
• Hydration product;
• Credentials.

The City of Shenandoah will assume financial responsibility for the following:
• Woodforest Stadium buyout;
• Artificial turf field painting and cleaning;
• Gagliardi Banquet;
• Championship Banquet;
• Fellowship of Christian Athletes Breakfast;
• Internet service (press/media needs);
• Tailgate;
• Hospitality;
• Security;
• Ticketing;
• Promotional Items;
• Advertising.
Estimated total expense for this event is around $165,000.00.

Staff recommends that the contract be signed and the City move forward with the 2018 Stagg Bowl. The amount of exposure that a bowl game might provide could potentially be quite great.

BUDGET JUSTIFICATION:
The governor’s office generally calculates economic impact by assuming that each attendee will spend $125.00 per
day on food and shopping. Staff has estimated that this event will bring about 116 student athletes to Shenandoah.
Staff estimates five guests per athlete. Accounting for various other NCAA, university, and coaching staff, staff
estimates that this event will bring about 900 people into Shenandoah. Using the economic impact formula provided
by the governor’s office, the expected economic impact is $221,750.00. This figure takes into account travel and
practice days. Staff estimates around 700 room nights from this event at the prenegotiated rate of $149.00 per night.
This means that the City’s revenue from hotel occupancy tax (7%) is expected to be around $7,301.00

BACKGROUND:
The NCAA Division III Amos Alonzo Stagg Bowl has been held in Salem, Virginia since 1993, making 2018 the first year it
will be held outside of “DIII Territory” in 25 years. Staff has acquired Salem’s Stagg Bowl budget information for the past
three years and current year. Ticket sales are included with this information. The City of Salem has reported the following
information to NCAA:
2014 (Wisconsin-Whitewater/Mount Union): 5,081 spectator tickets;
2015 (Mount Union/St. Thomas MN): 5,153 spectator tickets;
2016 (Mary Hardin-Baylor/Wisconsin-Oshkosh): 3,388 spectator tickets;
2017: est. 4,900 tickets.
Actual attendance has been reported as:
2014: 5,465
2015: 5,343
2016: 3,476
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on October 24, 2017, 03:34:30 pm
I'd be shocked if they sign the agreement tomorrow.  Council members were "shocked at the cost" two weeks ago and thought that it would be a cost of $24,000 instead of $219k.   

where's the mention of 2019?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 24, 2017, 03:34:43 pm
I listened to the Shenandoah City Council meeting from 10/11:

https://ucs.shenandoahtx.us/owncloud/index.php/s/sNMjdKLxdDpM2m8

give 01:04:00 to 01:15:00 a listen and see how excited they sound.    That meeting tomorrow should be informative

Lordy.   They thought they would get the gate.  They originally told the NCAA they would pick up *all* costs, no wonder the AA chose them.   And in this discussion the council says they have "no legal obligation" to follow through until such a time as they sign off on this, and that if they do it in 2018 and it doesn't work they could just bail on 2019 since the AA would have time to find someone else.

Basically, whoever put the bid in had no idea what they were doing. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 24, 2017, 03:36:48 pm
I'd be shocked if they sign the agreement tomorrow.  Council members were "shocked at the cost" two weeks ago and thought that it would be a cost of $24,000 instead of $219k.   

where's the mention of 2019?

From last week's discussion and this agenda item it is obvious they have no intention of committing to 2019 at this point.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on October 24, 2017, 03:43:38 pm
a texas trainwreck
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 24, 2017, 03:44:04 pm
Do I interpret these data to be the "walk-up" ticket sales?

Quote
2014 (Wisconsin-Whitewater/Mount Union): 5,081 spectator tickets;
2015 (Mount Union/St. Thomas MN): 5,153 spectator tickets;
2016 (Mary Hardin-Baylor/Wisconsin-Oshkosh): 3,388 spectator tickets;
2017: est. 4,900 tickets.
Actual attendance has been reported as:
2014: 5,465
2015: 5,343
2016: 3,476

2014:  5465  - 5081   =   384
2015:  5343  - 5153   =   190
2016:  3476  -  3388  =   88
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: jknezek on October 24, 2017, 03:44:44 pm
What a cluster. At least we know why the NCAA chose a place remote to almost anywhere that plays DIII football. The people screwed up the application and the NCAA apparently didn't bother to question them on it. Bet it doesn't look like such a good idea anymore for either side. If Shenandoah goes through with it, it's only because they are too embarrassed to back out and know it won't help them with any event they want to bid on in the future.. They will scrimp on anything they can knowing 2019 is off the table.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 24, 2017, 03:47:40 pm
a texas trainwreck

Actually, here is link to the most famous Texas Train Wreck, the "Crash at Crush".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crush,_Texas

 :)
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wally_wabash on October 24, 2017, 03:52:21 pm
Stagg Bowl?  Huh?  What Stagg Bowl?

(https://media.giphy.com/media/nQ4J9StmWFf3O/giphy.gif)

Adjourned. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 24, 2017, 03:54:33 pm
Do I interpret these data to be the "walk-up" ticket sales?

Quote
2014 (Wisconsin-Whitewater/Mount Union): 5,081 spectator tickets;
2015 (Mount Union/St. Thomas MN): 5,153 spectator tickets;
2016 (Mary Hardin-Baylor/Wisconsin-Oshkosh): 3,388 spectator tickets;
2017: est. 4,900 tickets.
Actual attendance has been reported as:
2014: 5,465
2015: 5,343
2016: 3,476



2014:  5465  - 5081   =   384
2015:  5343  - 5153   =   190
2016:  3476  -  3388  =   88

My guess would be that these are comps.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on October 24, 2017, 03:56:28 pm
if the NCAA gives two yits about D3, they will keep the Stagg Bowl in Salem for 2018-19.  The only thing missing from the council meeting audio is the Benny Hill music
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on October 25, 2017, 08:07:20 pm
I don't know if anybody else is interested, but they are doing a live stream of  the city council meeting tonight

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LlTBlhdhgw

the Stagg Bowl talk starts at 45:15 goes to about 56:00
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on October 25, 2017, 09:04:38 pm
took some notes during the council meeting:

- the Shenandoah lawyer met with the NCAA this morning
- the NCAA "would like" for Shenandoah to host 2018 and 2019
- TX no longer has to provide buses for the Stagg Bowl teams (two 47 person buses per team) a savings of approx $100k
- Lone Star College (local community college?) will be the host of events
- the NCAA is willing to work with TX per the contract of $170k instead of $219k earlier
- The NCAA is anxious for action from TX
- there was a tentative approval for the $170k budget for 2018 Stagg Bowl.  2019 will be brought up next meeting
- Salem spent $100k last year with some back pay from the NCAA
- council members "not a slam dunk for the city" and "I'm disappointed that I 'have to approve' a contract with the NCAA" and "feel like I'm boxed into a corner
- why the ticket sales drop in 2016?  council members "prop planes have to fly into Roanoke"  "it has to do with the teams, how many UMHB fans flew to Salem?"  "we have big time HS football fans that are used to a Friday Night Lights game"


I've never been more confident that Canton will blow their Stagg Bowl bid  out of the water.  These penny pinching Texans are a joke.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 26, 2017, 11:38:33 am
took some notes during the council meeting:

- the Shenandoah lawyer met with the NCAA this morning
- the NCAA "would like" for Shenandoah to host 2018 and 2019
- TX no longer has to provide buses for the Stagg Bowl teams (two 47 person buses per team) a savings of approx $100k
- Lone Star College (local community college?) will be the host of events
- the NCAA is willing to work with TX per the contract of $170k instead of $219k earlier
- The NCAA is anxious for action from TX
- there was a tentative approval for the $170k budget for 2018 Stagg Bowl.  2019 will be brought up next meeting
- Salem spent $100k last year with some back pay from the NCAA
- council members "not a slam dunk for the city" and "I'm disappointed that I 'have to approve' a contract with the NCAA" and "feel like I'm boxed into a corner
- why the ticket sales drop in 2016?  council members "prop planes have to fly into Roanoke"  "it has to do with the teams, how many UMHB fans flew to Salem?"  "we have big time HS football fans that are used to a Friday Night Lights game"


I've never been more confident that Canton will blow their Stagg Bowl bid  out of the water.  These penny pinching Texans are a joke.

They are clearly misinformed as well despite having a group of people travel to Salem at least once if not more often.

I will also add that I've learned that the City Manager who was behind Shenadoah's efforts moved on... thus no one there is really pushing this anymore.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 26, 2017, 12:21:36 pm
took some notes during the council meeting:

- the Shenandoah lawyer met with the NCAA this morning
- the NCAA "would like" for Shenandoah to host 2018 and 2019
- TX no longer has to provide buses for the Stagg Bowl teams (two 47 person buses per team) a savings of approx $100k
- Lone Star College (local community college?) will be the host of events
- the NCAA is willing to work with TX per the contract of $170k instead of $219k earlier
- The NCAA is anxious for action from TX
- there was a tentative approval for the $170k budget for 2018 Stagg Bowl.  2019 will be brought up next meeting
- Salem spent $100k last year with some back pay from the NCAA
- council members "not a slam dunk for the city" and "I'm disappointed that I 'have to approve' a contract with the NCAA" and "feel like I'm boxed into a corner
- why the ticket sales drop in 2016?  council members "prop planes have to fly into Roanoke"  "it has to do with the teams, how many UMHB fans flew to Salem?"  "we have big time HS football fans that are used to a Friday Night Lights game"


I've never been more confident that Canton will blow their Stagg Bowl bid  out of the water.  These penny pinching Texans are a joke.

They are clearly misinformed as well despite having a group of people travel to Salem at least once if not more often.

I will also add that I've learned that the City Manager who was behind Shenadoah's efforts moved on... thus no one there is really pushing this anymore.

They really should drop it if nobody there GAF.   Still time for the AA to find someone caring and clueful (or at least the latter) who would do a much better job.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 26, 2017, 12:26:37 pm
That said (and I stand by it) according to https://communityimpact.com/guides/houston/the-woodlands/news/city-county/2017/10/26/ncaa-division-iii-football-championship-hampton-inn-suites-5-takeaways-shenandoah-city-councils-oct-25-meeting/ the council did unanimously approve the 2018 event.   I am amused at the comment (which came from the council) that "[t]his will be the first time in 25 years the Amos Alonzo Stagg Bowl will be played outside of 'DIII Territory'; I guess the fact that there are a dozen or so DIII schools playing football in TX, and a dozen more in DIII as a whole, doesn't make TX 'DIII Territory'. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: jknezek on October 26, 2017, 12:30:48 pm
Everything about this is just screaming "half-assed" at this point.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 26, 2017, 01:04:17 pm
That said (and I stand by it) according to https://communityimpact.com/guides/houston/the-woodlands/news/city-county/2017/10/26/ncaa-division-iii-football-championship-hampton-inn-suites-5-takeaways-shenandoah-city-councils-oct-25-meeting/ the council did unanimously approve the 2018 event.   I am amused at the comment (which came from the council) that "[t]his will be the first time in 25 years the Amos Alonzo Stagg Bowl will be played outside of 'DIII Territory'; I guess the fact that there are a dozen or so DIII schools playing football in TX, and a dozen more in DIII as a whole, doesn't make TX 'DIII Territory'.

That last part is ridiculous. Someone should consider contacting them about that fact. SMH
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on October 26, 2017, 02:18:33 pm
Everything about this is just screaming "half-assed" at this point.

you think?  I feel sorry for the teams going to Texas at this point. 
That said (and I stand by it) according to https://communityimpact.com/guides/houston/the-woodlands/news/city-county/2017/10/26/ncaa-division-iii-football-championship-hampton-inn-suites-5-takeaways-shenandoah-city-councils-oct-25-meeting/ the council did unanimously approve the 2018 event.   I am amused at the comment (which came from the council) that "[t]his will be the first time in 25 years the Amos Alonzo Stagg Bowl will be played outside of 'DIII Territory'; I guess the fact that there are a dozen or so DIII schools playing football in TX, and a dozen more in DIII as a whole, doesn't make TX 'DIII Territory'. 


Quote
The bowl game is expected to bring approximately 900 people to Shenandoah with an expected economic impact of $221,750. Approximately 700 room reservations are expected to bring the city an additional $7,301 from hotel occupancy tax revenue.

900 whole people!!!  might need a bigger stadium......smh
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 26, 2017, 02:37:38 pm
That said (and I stand by it) according to https://communityimpact.com/guides/houston/the-woodlands/news/city-county/2017/10/26/ncaa-division-iii-football-championship-hampton-inn-suites-5-takeaways-shenandoah-city-councils-oct-25-meeting/ the council did unanimously approve the 2018 event.   I am amused at the comment (which came from the council) that "[t]his will be the first time in 25 years the Amos Alonzo Stagg Bowl will be played outside of 'DIII Territory'; I guess the fact that there are a dozen or so DIII schools playing football in TX, and a dozen more in DIII as a whole, doesn't make TX 'DIII Territory'.

That last part is ridiculous. Someone should consider contacting them about that fact. SMH

Per an email I sent to the writer:

"The 'outside of DIII territory\' comment was taken straight from information provided by the City of Shenandoah, which was included in last night's agenda packet on the item's background. I have amended the article so that it no longer includes that comment."

We have some work to do in the Houston area. :)
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: AO on October 26, 2017, 02:40:43 pm
That said (and I stand by it) according to https://communityimpact.com/guides/houston/the-woodlands/news/city-county/2017/10/26/ncaa-division-iii-football-championship-hampton-inn-suites-5-takeaways-shenandoah-city-councils-oct-25-meeting/ the council did unanimously approve the 2018 event.   I am amused at the comment (which came from the council) that "[t]his will be the first time in 25 years the Amos Alonzo Stagg Bowl will be played outside of 'DIII Territory'; I guess the fact that there are a dozen or so DIII schools playing football in TX, and a dozen more in DIII as a whole, doesn't make TX 'DIII Territory'.

That last part is ridiculous. Someone should consider contacting them about that fact. SMH

Per an email I sent to the writer:

"The 'outside of DIII territory\' comment was taken straight from information provided by the City of Shenandoah, which was included in last night's agenda packet on the item's background. I have amended the article so that it no longer includes that comment."

We have some work to do in the Houston area. :)
That's as good of a reason as any to move the game around, spread the good word about D3.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 26, 2017, 04:48:13 pm
Per an email I sent to the writer:

"The 'outside of DIII territory\' comment was taken straight from information provided by the City of Shenandoah, which was included in last night's agenda packet on the item's background. I have amended the article so that it no longer includes that comment."

We have some work to do in the Houston area. :)
That's as good of a reason as any to move the game around, spread the good word about D3.

Yes, but you have to have an organizer that wants to spread the good word.   These guys sound like all they want to do is let the parents and family come to them and "reap the rewards" of the hotel nights and taxes. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ron Boerger on October 26, 2017, 04:52:53 pm
Ah, I *knew* this was familar ... these guys also had the D3 swimming championships earlier this year:

http://www.shenandoahtx.us/ncaachampionships.cfm

Now, for swimming, nobody travels besides the athletes, coaches, and parents.   They probably based their football bid on that experience and the AA bought off on it. 

Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 26, 2017, 05:44:12 pm
That said (and I stand by it) according to https://communityimpact.com/guides/houston/the-woodlands/news/city-county/2017/10/26/ncaa-division-iii-football-championship-hampton-inn-suites-5-takeaways-shenandoah-city-councils-oct-25-meeting/ the council did unanimously approve the 2018 event.   I am amused at the comment (which came from the council) that "[t]his will be the first time in 25 years the Amos Alonzo Stagg Bowl will be played outside of 'DIII Territory'; I guess the fact that there are a dozen or so DIII schools playing football in TX, and a dozen more in DIII as a whole, doesn't make TX 'DIII Territory'.
Considering that there is not a single D-III school within a 150 mile radius, then yes it is outside the usual D-III Territory.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: smedindy on October 26, 2017, 06:18:54 pm
That said (and I stand by it) according to https://communityimpact.com/guides/houston/the-woodlands/news/city-county/2017/10/26/ncaa-division-iii-football-championship-hampton-inn-suites-5-takeaways-shenandoah-city-councils-oct-25-meeting/ the council did unanimously approve the 2018 event.   I am amused at the comment (which came from the council) that "[t]his will be the first time in 25 years the Amos Alonzo Stagg Bowl will be played outside of 'DIII Territory'; I guess the fact that there are a dozen or so DIII schools playing football in TX, and a dozen more in DIII as a whole, doesn't make TX 'DIII Territory'.
Considering that there is not a single D-III school within a 150 mile radius, then yes it is outside the usual D-III Territory.

How far is Sul Ross State from anyone in D-3?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: jknezek on October 26, 2017, 09:06:56 pm
That said (and I stand by it) according to https://communityimpact.com/guides/houston/the-woodlands/news/city-county/2017/10/26/ncaa-division-iii-football-championship-hampton-inn-suites-5-takeaways-shenandoah-city-councils-oct-25-meeting/ the council did unanimously approve the 2018 event.   I am amused at the comment (which came from the council) that "[t]his will be the first time in 25 years the Amos Alonzo Stagg Bowl will be played outside of 'DIII Territory'; I guess the fact that there are a dozen or so DIII schools playing football in TX, and a dozen more in DIII as a whole, doesn't make TX 'DIII Territory'.
Considering that there is not a single D-III school within a 150 mile radius, then yes it is outside the usual D-III Territory.

How far is Sul Ross State from anyone in D-3?

"First star to the right and straight on until morning..." And yes, I am currently reading Peter Pan to my twin 5 year olds every night.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 26, 2017, 09:52:58 pm
That said (and I stand by it) according to https://communityimpact.com/guides/houston/the-woodlands/news/city-county/2017/10/26/ncaa-division-iii-football-championship-hampton-inn-suites-5-takeaways-shenandoah-city-councils-oct-25-meeting/ the council did unanimously approve the 2018 event.   I am amused at the comment (which came from the council) that "[t]his will be the first time in 25 years the Amos Alonzo Stagg Bowl will be played outside of 'DIII Territory'; I guess the fact that there are a dozen or so DIII schools playing football in TX, and a dozen more in DIII as a whole, doesn't make TX 'DIII Territory'.
Considering that there is not a single D-III school within a 150 mile radius, then yes it is outside the usual D-III Territory.

How far is Sul Ross State from anyone in D-3?
That is why the Convention and Visitors Bureau of Alpine TX did not put in a bid.

There are wonderful sights to be seen nearby, the McDonald Observatory, Fort Davis, Big Bend National Park, Marfa lights, Kokernot Field, etc., but alas...

Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on October 26, 2017, 10:04:45 pm
That said (and I stand by it) according to https://communityimpact.com/guides/houston/the-woodlands/news/city-county/2017/10/26/ncaa-division-iii-football-championship-hampton-inn-suites-5-takeaways-shenandoah-city-councils-oct-25-meeting/ the council did unanimously approve the 2018 event.   I am amused at the comment (which came from the council) that "[t]his will be the first time in 25 years the Amos Alonzo Stagg Bowl will be played outside of 'DIII Territory'; I guess the fact that there are a dozen or so DIII schools playing football in TX, and a dozen more in DIII as a whole, doesn't make TX 'DIII Territory'.
Considering that there is not a single D-III school within a 150 mile radius, then yes it is outside the usual D-III Territory.

How far is Sul Ross State from anyone in D-3?
McMurry, Hardin-Simmons, Howard Payne are all 320ish miles. Schreiner (with no football team) is about the same.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on October 26, 2017, 10:19:46 pm
But there are many D3 schools that are 'outside of D3 territory' (maybe not QUITE as far as Sul Ross.  Think UMPI, Finlandia, and Colorado College, to name just three.

Shenandoah seems to be totally outside of D3 awareness, and since the city manager who pushed for it has moved on, seems to not have a clue what they have signed on for.  I smell a debacle in the offing.  Bets on 2019 going back to Salem or going early to Canton?

IF they have ever even heard of them, they better hope like hell that UMHB (or HSU) will be in the Stagg!
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on October 28, 2017, 09:48:15 pm
Adam Ledyard, ETBU SID, is broadcasting from Alpine and SRSU.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=989056492476&set=a.527302386406.2036297.177501061&type=3
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 08, 2017, 08:18:51 am
I can confirm the reports of small amounts of snow in the Houston area this morning.

However, it happens in Houston about as often as the Astros winning the World Series.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: desertraider on December 10, 2017, 12:43:39 pm
I really hope someone at the NCAA pulls their head out of their arse and realizes this is perhaps the dumbest move they could make. TX doesn't seem to want, isn't prepared for it, and doesn't seem interested in going all out to make it a great experience. I say keep it in Salem for the next 2 years. Canton is excited and ready - give them a shot, but - if it doesn't work out go back to Salem. They have done a great job for 25 years.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 10, 2017, 04:03:26 pm
After how the NCAA treated Salem this spring, stripping both men's basketball and football from them in one fell swoop, I am not sure Salem would bail out the NCAA even if asked.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Warren Thompson on December 10, 2017, 04:24:13 pm
After how the NCAA treated Salem this spring, stripping both men's basketball and football from them in one fell swoop, I am not sure Salem would bail out the NCAA even if asked.

The Indianapolis suits seem to have the loyalty of a scorpion when stinging his mother to death.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Teamski on December 11, 2017, 10:37:53 am
Canton is a terrible site.  Yeah, I know how big a deal playing at the NFL HOF is.  I get that.  Wesley played there for a game and it is pretty cool.  However, when is a cold weather site within a stone's throw of Mount Union ever a good idea?  An NCAA final should ALWAYS be in a weather neutral site, not one that favors cold weather teams.  This is like having the Superbowl at Soldier Field. 

-Ski
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: MUC57 on December 11, 2017, 10:43:10 am

Teamski

Just curious, what's a weather neutral site? Not too hot, not too cold? Where?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: jknezek on December 11, 2017, 10:48:02 am
Canton is a terrible site.  Yeah, I know how big a deal playing at the NFL HOF is.  I get that.  Wesley played there for a game and it is pretty cool.  However, when is a cold weather site within a stone's throw of Mount Union ever a good idea?  An NCAA final should ALWAYS be in a weather neutral site, not one that favors cold weather teams.  This is like having the Superbowl at Soldier Field. 

-Ski

They did the Superbowl at MetLife Stadium outside in NJ a couple years ago. It's doable. Look, other than the proximity to UMU, I think it's a great venue for the Stagg. I hate Shenandoah. This was a stupid money grab that the idiot town didn't read the contract or understand anything and the NCAA is picking up the slack for their lack of reading comprehension.

It's a stupid idea that quite clearly the town is lukewarm at best about taking on, the NCAA doesn't want to back away from due to pride, and we are probably just going to have to put up with it.

Canton is a great destination. Having the HOF, playing on a field the pros play on (yes an exhibition, but still). It's going to be incredible in the heart of a DIII hot spot. I might even be tempted to drive up since I haven't been to Canton. Yes the proximity to UMU is annoying, yes the weather could get squirrely, but Bridgewater played in Salem and we've had a few inclement weather Staggs over the years there.

I wish they would trade off between Salem and Canton, depending on how it goes, but the NCAA seems to have some other idea about a Grand Tour. Sounds stupid to me, but so do a lot of things the NCAA does.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: jamtod on December 11, 2017, 10:49:20 am
Canton is a terrible site.  Yeah, I know how big a deal playing at the NFL HOF is.  I get that.  Wesley played there for a game and it is pretty cool.  However, when is a cold weather site within a stone's throw of Mount Union ever a good idea?  An NCAA final should ALWAYS be in a weather neutral site, not one that favors cold weather teams.  This is like having the Superbowl at Soldier Field. 

-Ski

Define "weather neutral."
Aside from in a stadium, there is no weather neutral and football is not a weather neutral sport, especially at the D3 level.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: skunks_sidekick on December 11, 2017, 10:50:20 am
Canton is a terrible site.  Yeah, I know how big a deal playing at the NFL HOF is.  I get that.  Wesley played there for a game and it is pretty cool.  However, when is a cold weather site within a stone's throw of Mount Union ever a good idea?  An NCAA final should ALWAYS be in a weather neutral site, not one that favors cold weather teams.  This is like having the Superbowl at Soldier Field. 

-Ski

Weather forecast this Friday...
Salem...42 degrees & partly cloudy
Canton...30 degrees & partly cloudy

I have reviewed & compared the weather between the two cities for the last umpteen years to compare.  The comparisons were always similar to above, with more  times than not when Salem got inclement weather, it was actually better in Canton, OH.  Mind you, if Canton gets a blizzard on Stagg Bowl weekend the first year they have it, there will be more than a bit of growling from everyone.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on December 11, 2017, 11:20:56 am
Canton is a terrible site.  Yeah, I know how big a deal playing at the NFL HOF is.  I get that.  Wesley played there for a game and it is pretty cool.  However, when is a cold weather site within a stone's throw of Mount Union ever a good idea?  An NCAA final should ALWAYS be in a weather neutral site, not one that favors cold weather teams.  This is like having the Superbowl at Soldier Field. 

-Ski

Weather forecast this Friday...
Salem...42 degrees & partly cloudy
Canton...30 degrees & partly cloudy

I have reviewed & compared the weather between the two cities for the last umpteen years to compare.  The comparisons were always similar to above, with more  times than not when Salem got inclement weather, it was actually better in Canton, OH.  Mind you, if Canton gets a blizzard on Stagg Bowl weekend the first year they have it, there will be more than a bit of growling from everyone.

David Baker won't let it snow the first year in Canton
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Teamski on December 11, 2017, 11:38:40 am
Canton is a terrible site.  Yeah, I know how big a deal playing at the NFL HOF is.  I get that.  Wesley played there for a game and it is pretty cool.  However, when is a cold weather site within a stone's throw of Mount Union ever a good idea?  An NCAA final should ALWAYS be in a weather neutral site, not one that favors cold weather teams.  This is like having the Superbowl at Soldier Field. 

-Ski

Define "weather neutral."
Aside from in a stadium, there is no weather neutral and football is not a weather neutral sport, especially at the D3 level.

I think Texas is a hell of a lot better than Canton...that is at least somewhat weather neutral.


A 30 degree final game with the risk for lake effect snow?  Really?  So how is that fair to a team like UMHB coming up from Texas to play UMU at what is  basically a home game for the Raiders?  Distance to UMU aside, there are a lot of teams in DIII that are not good cold weather teams, and a final at Canton decisively favors northern teams that practice in the cold with possible snow. 

There are tons of options when trying to find a venue for the Stagg Bowl, especially in states that are further south and less likely to give material advantages to northern teams.  Nashville would be a great site that is more centrally located.  Vanderbilt's Stadium, if they offered it, would be perfect.  Let's see.... Memphis?  Liberty Bowl.  Big, but I bet you will get more people attending these games with the centralized location.  Temperature this Saturday in Memphis?  56 degrees and sunny. 

This obviously was not thought out or the NCAA was offered a deal by the HOF bowl they couldn't refuse in order for the stadium to be utilized.

-Ski
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wally_wabash on December 11, 2017, 11:59:40 am
Canton is a terrible site.  Yeah, I know how big a deal playing at the NFL HOF is.  I get that.  Wesley played there for a game and it is pretty cool.  However, when is a cold weather site within a stone's throw of Mount Union ever a good idea?  An NCAA final should ALWAYS be in a weather neutral site, not one that favors cold weather teams.  This is like having the Superbowl at Soldier Field. 

-Ski

Define "weather neutral."
Aside from in a stadium, there is no weather neutral and football is not a weather neutral sport, especially at the D3 level.

I think Texas is a hell of a lot better than Canton...that is at least somewhat weather neutral.


A 30 degree final game with the risk for lake effect snow?  Really?  So how is that fair to a team like UMHB coming up from Texas to play UMU at what is  basically a home game for the Raiders?  Distance to UMU aside, there are a lot of teams in DIII that are not good cold weather teams, and a final at Canton decisively favors northern teams that practice in the cold with possible snow. 

Nobody routinely, or ever, practices in lake effect blizzards.  That kind of condition favors nobody.  This is a bad take. 

There are tons of options when trying to find a venue for the Stagg Bowl, especially in states that are further south and less likely to give material advantages to northern teams.  Nashville would be a great site that is more centrally located.  Vanderbilt's Stadium, if they offered it, would be perfect.  Let's see.... Memphis?  Liberty Bowl.  Big, but I bet you will get more people attending these games with the centralized location.  Temperature this Saturday in Memphis?  56 degrees and sunny.

You significantly overestimate the amount of casual interest in the D3 championship game.  I don't think the game in Shenandoah will be well attended unless UMHB is playing in it.  If you dropped  this game into Memphis, who is going to go?  Playing this game in a 50,000 seat stadium is lunacy.  And you have to have cities and sites willing to host the event- not just the game, but a bunch of other Stagg Bowl week stuff that goes along with the game.  You say "put it in Memphis" like the NCAA has a standing open invitation anywhere in the continental 48 to play this game.  It doesn't work like that. 

And FWIW, I don't necessarily think the game is Canton is going to be all that great either.  If Mount Union doesn't make it to the final game, attendance to that game will not be great either.  D3 is super, super niche. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: jknezek on December 11, 2017, 12:04:28 pm
The Stagg was held throughout the 70s in Phenix City Alabama and again in the mid to late 80s before switching to Forida for 3 years. Attendance has always been hit or miss depending on the schools involved. It's a fairly obvious pattern. Larger state schools playing in their first or second Stagg drew high attendance. Smaller liberal arts schools and schools that make the Stagg year after year draw lower attendance. The highest attendance listed is 9000, for a game in Phenix City between West Georgia, which was literally 90 miles away from the stadium, and Augustana in first appearances for both schools. Dayton and Ithaca, also in Phenix City, came close at 8700 in maiden appearences for both. Every other appearance for these schools, but especially Augustana, drew next to nothing.

Salem's mostly best attended games came in the first 2 years, which coincided with UMU, Rowan, Albion, and W&J making first appearances. Other than that, the Bridgewater/UMU game drew the largest crowd, just a hair under 8000. Bridgewater's first appearance and again, a school 90 minutes down the road. Mostly, though, the Stagg draws poorly when schools come over and over, especially schools from farther away. Those UWW/UMU games dipped down into the low 3K, a number matched last year by two teams both coming from distant areas and by the poorly attended Linfield/UMHB game.

I have no idea what the NCAA hopes to show with Shenandoah. If UMHB doesn't make that game, and you get a combination of UMU and UWW or UWO or any 2 schools that need to fly, attendance will likely be a true dud.

Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wally_wabash on December 11, 2017, 12:10:50 pm
I have no idea what the NCAA hopes to show with Shenandoah. If UMHB doesn't make that game, and you get a combination of UMU and UWW or UWO or any 2 schools that need to fly, attendance will likely be a true dud.

But you might not have to wear a jacket and that's the important thing.   ;)
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 11, 2017, 12:12:50 pm

Teamski

Just curious, what's a weather neutral site? Not too hot, not too cold? Where?
Weather neutral...

Mature turf field

Dry

Wind velocity less than 10 MPH.

Temperature range 50 to 65 degrees.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 11, 2017, 12:15:14 pm
I thought that there were several passes in the UWO-UMU game that were dropped because the players' hands were too cold.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Teamski on December 11, 2017, 12:17:11 pm

I have no idea what the NCAA hopes to show with Shenandoah. If UMHB doesn't make that game, and you get a combination of UMU and UWW or UWO or any 2 schools that need to fly, attendance will likely be a true dud.

Both locations suck.  At least Texas has more neutral weather.  The same head scratching happened when the FCS chose Frisco Texas for their championship game.  I still think a location like Memphis is a better bet.  Using your logic of attendance, Salem should have poor attendance because a Virginia team didn't make to the Championship.  That doesn't compute.  A central location like Memphis makes travel time for all teams and fans lower overall; far better than Salem!

I am sure that Memphis or Nashville would be happy to host an NCAA championship of any division.  It still is a (very small) feather in the cap for the cities.  Add the tourist potential for fans traveling to either there or Nashville.  It really is a win-win for fans, the NCAA and the host.  Yes, I make a lot of assumptions, but I find it very hard to believe that Canton and somewhere down in Texas were the only options......

-Ski
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Teamski on December 11, 2017, 12:27:29 pm

Nobody routinely, or ever, practices in lake effect blizzards.  That kind of condition favors nobody.  This is a bad take. 

Lake effect snow would cancel the game of course (another good reason why the location is less than ideal).  Seasonal snow and cold is another story, and that DOES play into the cold weather team's hands.  Example:  Wesley at UWW 2005.  Snow hits the field that week.  Wesley shows up (which is not a good cold weather team to begin with) and finds out that the cleats they brought were too short.  Too late.  The subsequent slip-laden game results in a 58-6 loss.  UWW practiced on that turf and were ready for the conditions.  Not saying that Wesley would have won the game, but they were better than that.

This was a seeded game.  If this was a championship, how would that show who was the better team?

-Ski
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on December 11, 2017, 12:40:37 pm
Main Issue:

A Location/City/Etc. has to APPLY to host the Championship.  The NCAA just doesn't Assign the game to a random location.

IMO, the NCAA made a mistake in wanting to "Move the Championship Around."

Salem has done an amazing job in hosting the Stagg and although I like the fact that the game will be played in Canton for a couple of years, I still think they should have kept it in Salem.

IMG Academy applied a few years ago, and it would have been a nice easy drive for me to attend, it didn't make sense for overall attendance at the game.  Very few locals would attend (IMO) and not everyone can make airline reservations with less that 7 days notice to support their team.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: jknezek on December 11, 2017, 12:44:15 pm

I have no idea what the NCAA hopes to show with Shenandoah. If UMHB doesn't make that game, and you get a combination of UMU and UWW or UWO or any 2 schools that need to fly, attendance will likely be a true dud.

Both locations suck.  At least Texas has more neutral weather.  The same head scratching happened when the FCS chose Frisco Texas for their championship game.  I still think a location like Memphis is a better bet.  Using your logic of attendance, Salem should have poor attendance because a Virginia team didn't make to the Championship.  That doesn't compute.  A central location like Memphis makes travel time for all teams and fans lower overall; far better than Salem!

The year Bridgewater made the Stagg was the highest attended Stagg in Salem, so it does compute. 100% born out. Two of the three Staggs with the highest attendance of all time were the one in Phenix City with a school 90 miles away and the one in Salem with a school 90 or so miles away. Two of the three worst attended Staggs in Salem were Linfield/UMHB and UMHB/UWO.
Proximity is pretty clearly the major driver of attendance.

I am sure that Memphis or Nashville would be happy to host an NCAA championship of any division.  It still is a (very small) feather in the cap for the cities.  Add the tourist potential for fans traveling to either there or Nashville.  It really is a win-win for fans, the NCAA and the host.  Yes, I make a lot of assumptions, but I find it very hard to believe that Canton and somewhere down in Texas were the only options......

-Ski

Then they have to apply. Shenandoah got it because they didn't read the contract. That is clear from some of the municipal meeting notes. They offered the NCAA the world because they thought they got ticket revenue. The NCAA has had to chip in for things their bid included because the bid was done by someone without a freaking clue.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on December 11, 2017, 12:45:01 pm

Nobody routinely, or ever, practices in lake effect blizzards.  That kind of condition favors nobody.  This is a bad take. 

Lake effect snow would cancel the game of course (another good reason why the location is less than ideal).  Seasonal snow and cold is another story, and that DOES play into the cold weather team's hands.  Example:  Wesley at UWW 2005.  Snow hits the field that week.  Wesley shows up (which is not a good cold weather team to begin with) and finds out that the cleats they brought were too short.  Too late.  The subsequent slip-laden game results in a 58-6 loss.  UWW practiced on that turf and were ready for the conditions.  Not saying that Wesley would have won the game, but they were better than that.

This was a seeded game.  If this was a championship, how would that show who was the better team?

-Ski

Lake Effect Snow rarely reaches the Canton Area.  More in the Upper NE corner of the state
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Teamski on December 11, 2017, 01:00:25 pm


The year Bridgewater made the Stagg was the highest attended Stagg in Salem, so it does compute. 100% born out. Two of the three Staggs with the highest attendance of all time were the one in Phenix City with a school 90 miles away and the one in Salem with a school 90 or so miles away. Two of the three worst attended Staggs in Salem were Linfield/UMHB and UMHB/UWO.
Proximity is pretty clearly the major driver of attendance.
 

That is fine, but my point was really about  the fact that Salem is not selected because of attendance.  This was in defense of my suggestion that a more centrally located championship would be better attended overall which was countered by the "Low attendance" argument.  I probably didn't get that across very well, sorry.  I don't think that filling the stands with UMU faithful at Canton in what is supposed to be a neutral location is ideal and if UMU doesn't make it, we have another Salem....in 30 degree weather...with possible snow hampering travel.   

-Ski
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: jknezek on December 11, 2017, 01:08:11 pm


The year Bridgewater made the Stagg was the highest attended Stagg in Salem, so it does compute. 100% born out. Two of the three Staggs with the highest attendance of all time were the one in Phenix City with a school 90 miles away and the one in Salem with a school 90 or so miles away. Two of the three worst attended Staggs in Salem were Linfield/UMHB and UMHB/UWO.
Proximity is pretty clearly the major driver of attendance.
 

That is fine, but my point was really about  the fact that Salem is not selected because of attendance.  This was in defense of my suggestion that a more centrally located championship would be better attended overall which was countered by the "Low attendance" argument.  I probably didn't get that across very well, sorry.  I don't think that filling the stands with UMU faithful at Canton in what is supposed to be a neutral location is ideal and if UMU doesn't make it, we have another Salem....in 30 degree weather...with possible snow hampering travel.   

-Ski

The only team to make the Stagg in recent history that would travel farther to Canton than Salem is UMHB. Closer to everyone else since probably Bridgewater. That being said, I think the problem with Nashville or Memphis is it is really close to no one likely to make the Stagg. The games that get the highest attendance are easy driving distance for one team. Think day trip. Memphis and Nashville don't qualify for anyone likely to make it. Canton doesn't really work for the most likely players besides UMU either, but I still think that facility and the HOF next door are solid draws and benefits to the student athletes.

There just isn't a good answer to this problem. In all those games between UMU and UWW you'd have ideally had the game somewhere due north of Indianapolis. But you can't organize these things that way. So you pick a community and hope for the best. Salem did a great job. Shenandoah seems to have buyer's remorse. Canton has some unique amenities. Memphis and Nashville? All that means is even more people need to buy last second flights...
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wally_wabash on December 11, 2017, 01:10:45 pm

Nobody routinely, or ever, practices in lake effect blizzards.  That kind of condition favors nobody.  This is a bad take. 

Lake effect snow would cancel the game of course (another good reason why the location is less than ideal).  Seasonal snow and cold is another story, and that DOES play into the cold weather team's hands.  Example:  Wesley at UWW 2005.  Snow hits the field that week.  Wesley shows up (which is not a good cold weather team to begin with) and finds out that the cleats they brought were too short.  Too late.  The subsequent slip-laden game results in a 58-6 loss.  UWW practiced on that turf and were ready for the conditions.  Not saying that Wesley would have won the game, but they were better than that.

This was a seeded game.  If this was a championship, how would that show who was the better team?

-Ski

Honestly, that's on y'all.  Don't blame the weather because your guys didn't pack the right shoes.  Anybody wanting to play for championships in D3 has to be ready to play anywhere in December.  If cold is an excuse for a team, they're not ready. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 11, 2017, 01:12:07 pm
Delaware, Ohio (Ohio Wesleyan, with a 9,000-seat stadium) also put in to host, as did Detroit, which wanted to host a D2/D3 doubleheader in Ford Field.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Teamski on December 11, 2017, 01:13:25 pm
Main Issue:

A Location/City/Etc. has to APPLY to host the Championship.  The NCAA just doesn't Assign the game to a random location.

IMO, the NCAA made a mistake in wanting to "Move the Championship Around."

Salem has done an amazing job in hosting the Stagg and although I like the fact that the game will be played in Canton for a couple of years, I still think they should have kept it in Salem.

IMG Academy applied a few years ago, and it would have been a nice easy drive for me to attend, it didn't make sense for overall attendance at the game.  Very few locals would attend (IMO) and not everyone can make airline reservations with less that 7 days notice to support their team.

I am sure a bit of scouting by the NCAA would do wonders.  The DIII football championship is obviously an additional duty to some unfortunatel NCAA staff and it shows.  A good centralized location is FAR more equitable for everybody.  Central location like Memphis is closer to most DIII teams than Salem is and usually has better weather not affected by coastal or mountain terrain.   You can't tell me that the NCAA couldn't discuss options with different cities to host a championship that would be more amenable to DIII in general.  Yeah, the locations have to apply for it.  It doesn't mean that they have to read minds.  This thing doesn't pass the eye test IMHO.

-Ski

 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Teamski on December 11, 2017, 01:16:06 pm
Delaware, Ohio (Ohio Wesleyan, with a 9,000-seat stadium) also put in to host, as did Detroit, which wanted to host a D2/D3 doubleheader in Ford Field.

Now Detroit would be cool with a pair of championships on the card!  That would boost attendance a bit for sure.  Detroit would garner more local interested just from the local football fans in a large media market. 

-Ski
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wally_wabash on December 11, 2017, 01:20:27 pm
Delaware, Ohio (Ohio Wesleyan, with a 9,000-seat stadium) also put in to host, as did Detroit, which wanted to host a D2/D3 doubleheader in Ford Field.

Now Detroit would be cool with a pair of championships on the card!  That would boost attendance a bit for sure.  Detroit would garner more local interested just from the local football fans in a large media market.

-Ski

No. It. Would. Not.  Thousands and thousands of unaffiliated people are not just going to show up for a D3 football game, championship or not, just because they like football.  You're WAY overestimating casual interest in small college football. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Teamski on December 11, 2017, 01:22:27 pm

Honestly, that's on y'all.  Don't blame the weather because your guys didn't pack the right shoes.  Anybody wanting to play for championships in D3 has to be ready to play anywhere in December.  If cold is an excuse for a team, they're not ready.

So, you seen no adverse affect on a team practicing in 50-60 degree weather for a 25-35 degree game vs a team that is already there having hosted a string of 30-40 degree games?  Unless you have a fieldhouse that can double as a freezer, you are at a distinct disadvantage.

-Ski
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 11, 2017, 01:24:25 pm
Agreed -- that only draws well if Grand Valley is playing in the D2 game and that doesn't help D3 at all. In this scenario, D3 is the little brother at its own championship.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Teamski on December 11, 2017, 01:26:09 pm
Delaware, Ohio (Ohio Wesleyan, with a 9,000-seat stadium) also put in to host, as did Detroit, which wanted to host a D2/D3 doubleheader in Ford Field.

Now Detroit would be cool with a pair of championships on the card!  That would boost attendance a bit for sure.  Detroit would garner more local interested just from the local football fans in a large media market.

-Ski

No. It. Would. Not.  Thousands and thousands of unaffiliated people are not just going to show up for a D3 football game, championship or not, just because they like football.  You're WAY overestimating casual interest in small college football.

I think you are likewise underestimating the interest in football in a major city.   We aren't talking about Salem here.  Some decent local advertising will fill additional seats.  More than at Salem, that is for sure.

-Ski
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Teamski on December 11, 2017, 01:27:38 pm
Agreed -- that only draws well if Grand Valley is playing in the D2 game and that doesn't help D3 at all. In this scenario, D3 is the little brother at its own championship.

If the games are played back to back, you will get people in attendance watching both games instead of a single game out in left field in Texas.

-Ski
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 11, 2017, 01:28:38 pm
Agreed -- that only draws well if Grand Valley is playing in the D2 game and that doesn't help D3 at all. In this scenario, D3 is the little brother at its own championship.

If the games are played back to back, you will get people in attendance watching both games instead of a single game out in left field in Texas.

-Ski

Well, we're going to get to test your hypothesis, because Shenandoah is in the Houston media market and some decent local advertising would do the same for that game.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wally_wabash on December 11, 2017, 01:32:48 pm

Honestly, that's on y'all.  Don't blame the weather because your guys didn't pack the right shoes.  Anybody wanting to play for championships in D3 has to be ready to play anywhere in December.  If cold is an excuse for a team, they're not ready.

So, you seen no adverse affect on a team practicing in 50-60 degree weather for a 25-35 degree game vs a team that is already there having hosted a string of 30-40 degree games?  Unless you have a fieldhouse that can double as a freezer, you are at a distinct disadvantage.

-Ski

Not really, no.  25-35 isn't even really that cold if we're being honest.  If 25-35 degrees is "adverse", then I have questions about how soft Wesley football is. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Teamski on December 11, 2017, 01:38:10 pm
Agreed -- that only draws well if Grand Valley is playing in the D2 game and that doesn't help D3 at all. In this scenario, D3 is the little brother at its own championship.

If the games are played back to back, you will get people in attendance watching both games instead of a single game out in left field in Texas.

-Ski

Well, we're going to get to test your hypothesis, because Shenandoah is in the Houston media market and some decent local advertising would do the same for that game.

Yeah, but Shenandoah isn't Ford Field is it?    That said, I think that DIII is getting better visibility with having ESPN3 showing the Semi's for the last couple years and the finals on TV, of course.  That wasn't always the case.  Brand recognition you know.......

-Ski
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on December 11, 2017, 01:38:49 pm

Nobody routinely, or ever, practices in lake effect blizzards.  That kind of condition favors nobody.  This is a bad take. 

Lake effect snow would cancel the game of course (another good reason why the location is less than ideal).  Seasonal snow and cold is another story, and that DOES play into the cold weather team's hands.  Example:  Wesley at UWW 2005.  Snow hits the field that week.  Wesley shows up (which is not a good cold weather team to begin with) and finds out that the cleats they brought were too short.  Too late.  The subsequent slip-laden game results in a 58-6 loss.  UWW practiced on that turf and were ready for the conditions.  Not saying that Wesley would have won the game, but they were better than that.

This was a seeded game.  If this was a championship, how would that show who was the better team?

-Ski

Lake Effect Snow rarely reaches the Canton Area.  More in the Upper NE corner of the state

no joke.  Canton has had a dusting so far, and might get 1-2" total before Friday night.  Canton is tropical compared to the Snow Belt.

Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Teamski on December 11, 2017, 01:40:11 pm

Honestly, that's on y'all.  Don't blame the weather because your guys didn't pack the right shoes.  Anybody wanting to play for championships in D3 has to be ready to play anywhere in December.  If cold is an excuse for a team, they're not ready.

So, you seen no adverse affect on a team practicing in 50-60 degree weather for a 25-35 degree game vs a team that is already there having hosted a string of 30-40 degree games?  Unless you have a fieldhouse that can double as a freezer, you are at a distinct disadvantage.

-Ski

Not really, no.  25-35 isn't even really that cold if we're being honest.  If 25-35 degrees is "adverse", then I have questions about how soft Wesley football is.

Wesley tends to be a fair weather team.

-Ski
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wally_wabash on December 11, 2017, 01:57:37 pm

Honestly, that's on y'all.  Don't blame the weather because your guys didn't pack the right shoes.  Anybody wanting to play for championships in D3 has to be ready to play anywhere in December.  If cold is an excuse for a team, they're not ready.

So, you seen no adverse affect on a team practicing in 50-60 degree weather for a 25-35 degree game vs a team that is already there having hosted a string of 30-40 degree games?  Unless you have a fieldhouse that can double as a freezer, you are at a distinct disadvantage.

-Ski

Not really, no.  25-35 isn't even really that cold if we're being honest.  If 25-35 degrees is "adverse", then I have questions about how soft Wesley football is.

Wesley tends to be a fair weather team.

-Ski

Cool.  They'll be fun to watch until Homecoming, but as far as the tournament goes, they've maxed out.  You can't win this tournament if normal December temperatures in places like Ohio and Wisconsin are uncomfortable. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Teamski on December 11, 2017, 02:04:14 pm
Cool.  They'll be fun to watch until Homecoming, but as far as the tournament goes, they've maxed out.  You can't win this tournament if normal December temperatures in places like Ohio and Wisconsin are uncomfortable. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Point taken.  It doesn't change the fact that the DIII championship should be as neutral as possible for both teams. 

-Ski
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: skunks_sidekick on December 11, 2017, 07:18:08 pm
Teamski...I love you man!  You heart is clearly on your sleeve, and I get it.  Men much more rational than me have spelled it out for you my man.  You are somewhat showing your "Ohio weather sucks & don't put it by Mount Union because odds are they will be in it" bias. 

Have you seen the latest weather update?  It's going to be snowing in Salem, and snowing in Canton.  Weather is NOT an issue if you are comparing the two.  I have been to Salem double digit times.  MORE times than not, the weather is NOT good.  I remember 2002 when the weather was warm, but the wind was howling off that one mountain like crazy.  Mount ran the ball the first quarter, and I had some people with me that were saying, "wait, what about this great Mount passing attack?".  I said...wait for it...and when they got the wind it was lights out. 

Based upon my limited (10 going on 11) times attending in Salem, weather is really not a deterrant to having the game in Canton.  Hate on Mount, I am ok with that.  But the show that the HOF, Canton folks, and all that will be involved will be second to none.  Oh by the way, if it snows, they will deal with it.  It's what we do up here.

I was a honk to get the folks up here to bid on the game.  I was probably more gas bag than reality.  However, I knew some people and made some phone calls.  That was many years ago, and none of the people in place now were involved when I was pushing for it.  I am glad they bid on it, and got the game.  These folks are top notch, and will put on a great event.  Mind you, they will need to because the Salem folks have done nothing but notch up their game year after year. 

Teamski...tell Wesley to put on their cold weather gear, watch Rocky IV or whichever movie that was when he was in Russia, and let's have a Wesley/Mount Stagg Bowl in Canton.  I know Wesleydad will be there, and he has an open invitation to stay at my place.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: HScoach on December 11, 2017, 07:43:34 pm
I've been to 17 Staff bowls and can honestly say the weather typically sucks.  Especially the wind.   As a  fan of a team that typically has a better passing game than their opponent, I would love to see the game somewhere the wind isn't an issue 80% of the time.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: smedindy on December 11, 2017, 07:58:43 pm
You know, I've seen it snow at the Sun Bowl, and at the Poulan / Weed Eater Independence Bowl in Shreveport. If you had a game in Alabama or Mississippi this week, then there would be snow.

Of course, nothing compared to the Bills / Colts

(https://campussports.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/twitter.jpg?quality=88&w=750)
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Teamski on December 11, 2017, 08:26:53 pm

Have you seen the latest weather update?  It's going to be snowing in Salem, and snowing in Canton.  Weather is NOT an issue if you are comparing the two.  I have been to Salem double digit times.  MORE times than not, the weather is NOT good.  I remember 2002 when the weather was warm, but the wind was howling off that one mountain like crazy.  Mount ran the ball the first quarter, and I had some people with me that were saying, "wait, what about this great Mount passing attack?".  I said...wait for it...and when they got the wind it was lights out. 
 

The funny thing is that I am not defending Salem as a location.  I never was.  I don't think it is a good one to be perfectly honest.  What I am saying is that if the NCAA wants to move the show, they should be looking for more temperate waters.  There is a practical layer in there somewhere.... ;)

-Ski
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wesleydad on December 11, 2017, 08:39:38 pm

Have you seen the latest weather update?  It's going to be snowing in Salem, and snowing in Canton.  Weather is NOT an issue if you are comparing the two.  I have been to Salem double digit times.  MORE times than not, the weather is NOT good.  I remember 2002 when the weather was warm, but the wind was howling off that one mountain like crazy.  Mount ran the ball the first quarter, and I had some people with me that were saying, "wait, what about this great Mount passing attack?".  I said...wait for it...and when they got the wind it was lights out. 
 

The funny thing is that I am not defending Salem as a location.  I never was.  I don't think it is a good one to be perfectly honest.  What I am saying is that if the NCAA wants to move the show, they should be looking for more temperate waters.  There is a practical layer in there somewhere.... ;)

-Ski

Ski, you have never made the trip to Salem to see a game so I am not sure what your beef with Salem is.  It is easier to get to for most folks than the 2 cities you keep mentioning, Nashville and Memphis, how are they central to D3.  Salem wants the game and does a top notch job with it.  I am going again this year because it is leaving and I don't foresee Wesley making a Stagg in the near future that would get me to fly to Texas.  Now, having never been to the HOF I will certainly take that trip no matter who is in it and will gladly take skunks up on the offer to stay at his place.  This game will be minimally attended because it is D3.  I have loved every game I have attended and Jason and his friend Nick will never forget the Blizzard trip we made.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 11, 2017, 08:54:23 pm
Couple of comments per what I have read:

- Shenanoah's previous city manager and members of the City Council did know what they were getting involved in. However, the city manager left and three new members of the city council were voted onto the board this past May. Apparently, no one did their homework or got up to speed with the departing city manager before he left. That is their fault, yes, but it doesn't automatically mean they didn't know what was going on when they signed up for this opportunity. Those involved changed, for whatever reason, between the bid being accepted and the meetings this past fall.

- The weather conversation is like beating a dead horse. It snowed last week in the Houston area. Believe it or not, it could snow in Shenandoah if the conditions are right. The game is played outdoors unless you have enough money to have a dome. It is what it is. Not worth arguing for a better place for weather. If we were in Florida, you never know if the game would be swamped by non-stop rain.

- Canton has a new stadium coming that this game will be played as part of a whole complex. Let's not judge the event or the game before we get there. Not much about the place will be the same between now and then just as it isn't the same as it was two years ago there.

- Shenandoah does appear to care less than Salem, but we have also been spoiled. There are very few "Salems" in the NCAA let alone Division III. I would be happy to tell people more about how Salem was screwed by some individuals at the NCAA (not the entity, not the division as a whole)... over a few beers. Salem isn't going to come to the rescue if needed, bet on that. However, we are headed to Shenandoah unless something really goes sideways. Two years and we will move on.

- Attendance in Salem isn't too bad especially outside of the two teams involved. No one is expected sold out. I just don't think, especially in this day in age, it is an expectation to have. Salem did well. Shenandoah probably won't do as well. I can see Canton maybe doing well, but super high attendance numbers just aren't going to happen.

- The size of Detroit's market is not a factor in any way, shape, or form. If anything, it works against an event like this. The bigger the market, the more money it takes to advertise enough to get enough eyeballs on it interested. I worked in the 24th largest market in the country for 14 years... it was like pulling teeth just to get sports to cover DIII teams nationally ranked over DI teams who couldn't sniff a winning season. It isn't like attendance is through the roof at those locations, either. It is actually cheaper to spend money in Salem on media and advertising than it would be in Detroit, Houston, etc. The 6pm news in those markets is a lot of money versus Salem or the like. At least the Salem media cared... we shall see if the other cities care as well (probably will the first year based on the "newness," the next year and beyond is a wild guess).

- And to follow up the point, cities/towns/locations have to bid for these events with the NCAA. Just saying "Memphis" or "Nashville" doesn't mean the NCAA goes and looks at them. If no one there cares enough to put a bid together, it isn't suddenly going to get a visit from the NCAA.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 11, 2017, 09:20:19 pm
I actually believe that it snowed in Houston because the Astros won the World Series.   ;D

http://abc13.com/weather/snow-in-houston----it-happens-more-than-you-think/2753082/

+1! Dave for your post.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wally_wabash on December 11, 2017, 09:41:33 pm
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/7eaadd4dcdde66971462d4650877be1b/tenor.gif)

Teamski...tell Wesley to put on their cold weather gear, watch Rocky IV or whichever movie that was when he was in Russia, and let's have a Wesley/Mount Stagg Bowl in Canton.  I know Wesleydad will be there, and he has an open invitation to stay at my place.

or whichever movie that was when he was in Russia??  I can't even right now. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on December 11, 2017, 10:05:56 pm
Couple of comments per what I have read:

- Shenanoah's previous city manager and members of the City Council did know what they were getting involved in. However, the city manager left and three new members of the city council were voted onto the board this past May. Apparently, no one did their homework or got up to speed with the departing city manager before he left. That is their fault, yes, but it doesn't automatically mean they didn't know what was going on when they signed up for this opportunity. Those involved changed, for whatever reason, between the bid being accepted and the meetings this past fall.

- The weather conversation is like beating a dead horse. It snowed last week in the Houston area. Believe it or not, it could snow in Shenandoah if the conditions are right. The game is played outdoors unless you have enough money to have a dome. It is what it is. Not worth arguing for a better place for weather. If we were in Florida, you never know if the game would be swamped by non-stop rain.

- Canton has a new stadium coming that this game will be played as part of a whole complex. Let's not judge the event or the game before we get there. Not much about the place will be the same between now and then just as it isn't the same as it was two years ago there.

- Shenandoah does appear to care less than Salem, but we have also been spoiled. There are very few "Salems" in the NCAA let alone Division III. I would be happy to tell people more about how Salem was screwed by some individuals at the NCAA (not the entity, not the division as a whole)... over a few beers. Salem isn't going to come to the rescue if needed, bet on that. However, we are headed to Shenandoah unless something really goes sideways. Two years and we will move on.

- Attendance in Salem isn't too bad especially outside of the two teams involved. No one is expected sold out. I just don't think, especially in this day in age, it is an expectation to have. Salem did well. Shenandoah probably won't do as well. I can see Canton maybe doing well, but super high attendance numbers just aren't going to happen.

- The size of Detroit's market is not a factor in any way, shape, or form. If anything, it works against an event like this. The bigger the market, the more money it takes to advertise enough to get enough eyeballs on it interested. I worked in the 24th largest market in the country for 14 years... it was like pulling teeth just to get sports to cover DIII teams nationally ranked over DI teams who couldn't sniff a winning season. It isn't like attendance is through the roof at those locations, either. It is actually cheaper to spend money in Salem on media and advertising than it would be in Detroit, Houston, etc. The 6pm news in those markets is a lot of money versus Salem or the like. At least the Salem media cared... we shall see if the other cities care as well (probably will the first year based on the "newness," the next year and beyond is a wild guess).

- And to follow up the point, cities/towns/locations have to bid for these events with the NCAA. Just saying "Memphis" or "Nashville" doesn't mean the NCAA goes and looks at them. If no one there cares enough to put a bid together, it isn't suddenly going to get a visit from the NCAA.

Question for you Dave or anyone else that may have more historical knowledge than I do. I too have seen the comments that the people of Shenandoah don't care and that will clearly mean that the product will be sub standard. My question, do we know what the people of Salem thought 25 years ago? 25 years ago if the city council members of Shenandoah would have made the same comments none of us would have known. Clearly I know that Salem is more in D3 country so I am sure there was more buy in initially but that doesn't mean it wasn't a lot of work for them and didn't require a few years to earn the good will that is obviously this many years later.

I do have my doubts about the success of a Texas Stagg Bowl but I am confident that since UMHB is listed as a co-sponsor of the event we will not let it be a terrible event.

Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Bob.Gregg on December 12, 2017, 08:56:07 am
I liked Bradenton.....

jknez---point of correction--W&J's trip to Salem (1994) was their SECOND Stagg Bowl.  First was in 1992 in Bradenton, FLA.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: jknezek on December 12, 2017, 09:33:14 am
I liked Bradenton.....

jknez---point of correction--W&J's trip to Salem (1994) was their SECOND Stagg Bowl.  First was in 1992 in Bradenton, FLA.

My fault. I was doing it really fast using a cell phone to trigger back and forth from the history and attendance page to the board.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: AO on December 12, 2017, 12:05:10 pm
Can someone give me a good reason why the athletes are going to like Houston/Canton less than Salem?  I'm sure the media/staff/admins are going to miss the Salem gift packs that they get in their hotel rooms. 
 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: WRMUalum13 on December 12, 2017, 03:04:22 pm
Can someone give me a good reason why the athletes are going to like Houston/Canton less than Salem?  I'm sure the media/staff/admins are going to miss the Salem gift packs that they get in their hotel rooms.

For Canton...
If I were an athlete I’d be pretty upset that the 2020 Stagg is 30 minutes from the biggest d3 dynasty. Also December weather in Northeast Ohio can be nasty.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: AO on December 12, 2017, 03:12:13 pm
Can someone give me a good reason why the athletes are going to like Houston/Canton less than Salem?  I'm sure the media/staff/admins are going to miss the Salem gift packs that they get in their hotel rooms.

For Canton...
If I were an athlete I’d be pretty upset that the 2020 Stagg is 30 minutes from the biggest d3 dynasty. Also December weather in Northeast Ohio can be nasty.
Playing hoops I was always more excited to play a true road game rather than a neutral site game.  Way more fun to have the stands filled even if they're mostly cheering against you.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: jknezek on December 12, 2017, 04:11:55 pm
Can someone give me a good reason why the athletes are going to like Houston/Canton less than Salem?  I'm sure the media/staff/admins are going to miss the Salem gift packs that they get in their hotel rooms.

I can't see a drawback to Canton. The fact that UMU is typically in the Stagg just doesn't outweigh the facility or the proximity to the HoF.

As for Shenandoah. It's not actually in Houston. I mean, Houston goes for ages, it is a massively spread out city, so it's kind of hard to say what is and isn't near it, because Houston itself encompasses 600 square miles. On the upside, the airport is on the same side of those 600 square miles, so it's only about 25 miles away. But... the host city really makes an event like this. How they treat the players, how things are set up at the banquets, how the stadium is set up and the volunteers are gathered. How it is publicized. It just doesn't appear that Shenandoah is all that interested in doing that.

What does that mean to the players as opposed to the fans? I'm not sure. You'd have to ask someone who's been there as a player. But I'd guess the better run the event then what the host does isn't really noticed. The more the host scrimps and skips the details, the more it will be noticed.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ron Boerger on December 12, 2017, 04:37:24 pm
Perhaps should either UMHB or UMU make it to next year's Stagg, D3fb can do an interview with one of the seniors comparing the two experiences  :)
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: WRMUalum13 on December 12, 2017, 06:37:52 pm
Can someone give me a good reason why the athletes are going to like Houston/Canton less than Salem?  I'm sure the media/staff/admins are going to miss the Salem gift packs that they get in their hotel rooms.

I can't see a drawback to Canton. The fact that UMU is typically in the Stagg just doesn't outweigh the facility or the proximity to the HoF.

As for Shenandoah. It's not actually in Houston. I mean, Houston goes for ages, it is a massively spread out city, so it's kind of hard to say what is and isn't near it, because Houston itself encompasses 600 square miles. On the upside, the airport is on the same side of those 600 square miles, so it's only about 25 miles away. But... the host city really makes an event like this. How they treat the players, how things are set up at the banquets, how the stadium is set up and the volunteers are gathered. How it is publicized. It just doesn't appear that Shenandoah is all that interested in doing that.

What does that mean to the players as opposed to the fans? I'm not sure. You'd have to ask someone who's been there as a player. But I'd guess the better run the event then what the host does isn't really noticed. The more the host scrimps and skips the details, the more it will be noticed.

I mean I don’t think canton’s a bad fit either however, as a mount fan I’ve heard the “Mount always gets the easy route through the playoffs, it’s not fair that they recruit way out of state, Mount should move up to division 2” I’m just not looking forward to adding “AND now they get a home game for the championship “to that list of complaints lol. But who knows if Mount will even make it to Canton, maybe our dynasty had a special connection to Salem (hope not, fingers crossed!)
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Toby Taff on December 13, 2017, 10:43:24 am
Can someone give me a good reason why the athletes are going to like Houston/Canton less than Salem?  I'm sure the media/staff/admins are going to miss the Salem gift packs that they get in their hotel rooms.

I can't see a drawback to Canton. The fact that UMU is typically in the Stagg just doesn't outweigh the facility or the proximity to the HoF.

As for Shenandoah. It's not actually in Houston. I mean, Houston goes for ages, it is a massively spread out city, so it's kind of hard to say what is and isn't near it, because Houston itself encompasses 600 square miles. On the upside, the airport is on the same side of those 600 square miles, so it's only about 25 miles away. But... the host city really makes an event like this. How they treat the players, how things are set up at the banquets, how the stadium is set up and the volunteers are gathered. How it is publicized. It just doesn't appear that Shenandoah is all that interested in doing that.

What does that mean to the players as opposed to the fans? I'm not sure. You'd have to ask someone who's been there as a player. But I'd guess the better run the event then what the host does isn't really noticed. The more the host scrimps and skips the details, the more it will be noticed.
25 year’s ago, i worked in Spring and the Woodlands/Conroe area was the edge of Houston. Shenandoah is well within the sprawl and has all the amenities a big city has to offer. If the city gets behind it, my guess is that the experience will be great.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on December 16, 2017, 01:09:57 pm
Question for you Dave or anyone else that may have more historical knowledge than I do. I too have seen the comments that the people of Shenandoah don't care and that will clearly mean that the product will be sub standard. My question, do we know what the people of Salem thought 25 years ago? 25 years ago if the city council members of Shenandoah would have made the same comments none of us would have known. Clearly I know that Salem is more in D3 country so I am sure there was more buy in initially but that doesn't mean it wasn't a lot of work for them and didn't require a few years to earn the good will that is obviously this many years later.

I do have my doubts about the success of a Texas Stagg Bowl but I am confident that since UMHB is listed as a co-sponsor of the event we will not let it be a terrible event.

Sorry for my delay... it has been a crazy week and I simply didn't have time to be on the boards.

The reason I and others have made the comments about Shenandoah is in what we have seen publicly. The city council meetings have been anything but positive. The information I am getting behind the scenes has been less than encouraging. I certainly am not saying the game and event will be an epic fail, but I also reference you to the final D3football.com podcast where they had one of football's former liaisons... his comments are worth listening to because he points out just why Shenandoah and even Canton won't live up to expectations for more than just those of us who are so familiar with the event.

Can someone give me a good reason why the athletes are going to like Houston/Canton less than Salem?  I'm sure the media/staff/admins are going to miss the Salem gift packs that they get in their hotel rooms. 
 

Feel free to ask the student-athletes. They speak highly of the Salem experience every time I ask them. Those around the championships talk about how the student-athletes are treated better in Salem than any other place in the NCAAs.

Salem and taken the championships in the NCAA and put them on another level. I have said this so often I feel like I may be a broken record, but they have elevated the student-athlete experience more than just about anyone in the entire NCAA. It isn't about gift bags for those like media (I have gotten one on a few occasions; certainly not the majority of my visits). It is about the gift bags the SAs get - something Salem was the first to do in the entire NCAA. It is about the hospitality, how details like laundry are taken care of, and how the SAs are treated from the moment they win their semifinal game (in the case of football) through their departure of Salem. The region has elevated the experience for the student-athletes to something that even the D1 bowl games can't compare with (again, I reference you to the podcast). Community service, celebrations, game environment. There are things Salem does and started doing that the NCAA has made mandatory at all of their other championships - and being one who has been to other championships, those experiences for the SAs still aren't on the same level as Salem. They deserve the props and applause for what they have done for 86 total NCAA championships (70 in DIII) so far and will continue to do, though on a small scale after March.

The bar Salem has set is probably impossible to meet. As a result, we all have to lower our expectations - plain and simple. Salem even pushed us, at D3sports and personally, to do better. We wouldn't have done the Gagliardi, Pregame, Hoopsville Courtside, and other stuff nearly as much or as well as we have done them if not for the individuals like Carey Harveycutter, John Saunders, Brad Bankston, JJ Nekeloff, Paul, Brian, and many others too numerous to mention have been driven to make the student-athletes' experience better including making sure we did things better as a result.

It is about the student-athletes ... never mistake that in any of our comments.

As for the assertion about Salem 25 years ago... the stories are numerous... they wanted to do this. They fought to do this. They did their research and made sure they were prepared. Ask anyone in Salem, the NCAA, or elsewhere and the decision to come to Salem was not one that was orchestrated. The committee talks about being blown away by Salem about why they wanted the Stagg Bowl. There weren't city council meetings that left people scratching their heads. Those stories were repeated several times this week.

Now, no one will tell you it didn't take Salem a few years to settle in. The joke last night was that it took ten years. LOL The reality is it will take time, but that is also how moving the championships around could end up doing more harm than good. What Shenandoah realizes needs to be improved from the first year only has the second year to be either implemented or ignored (because it is only one more year). Same with Canton. The disadvantage with always moving the championships around is that the hosts never have time to iron things out. Salem never sat on its rear-ends thinking they had solved things. Even after nearly 90 championships they are constantly looking to do things better.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on December 18, 2017, 02:02:12 pm
from hearing all of the podcasts, pre and post game coverage, and reading twitter; it seems like the folks of Salem and D3 guys aren't too optimistic about Stagg Bowl 46 and 47 in Texas.

I am incredibly biased, but I think Canton can grab the bar that Salem raised and take it even higher.  Hopefully Shenandoah doesn't screw things up too bad.   

Thanks for all of the memories Salem and all those that I can no longer remember
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 18, 2017, 03:04:32 pm
How well did the City of Shenandoah handle the NCAA D-III Women's Swimming and Diving Championships, March 15-18, 2017?  The city also hosted D3 S&D Nationals in 2013 and 2015.

Was that experience something that the city learned it did not want to deal with the NCAA again?

Was the NCAA happy with the community's support of the event, such that the NCAA will no longer favorably receive a bid from Shenandoah for another Championship?

https://www.egovlink.com/public_documents300/shenandoah/published_documents/Communications/2017/NCAA%20Announcement%20REVISED.pdf
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on December 18, 2017, 03:18:48 pm
How well did the City of Shenandoah handle the NCAA D-III Women's Swimming and Diving Championships, March 15-18, 2017?  The city also hosted D3 S&D Nationals in 2013 and 2015.

Was that experience something that the city learned it did not want to deal with the NCAA again?

Was the NCAA happy with the community's support of the event, such that the NCAA will no longer favorably receive a bid from Shenandoah for another Championship?

https://www.egovlink.com/public_documents300/shenandoah/published_documents/Communications/2017/NCAA%20Announcement%20REVISED.pdf

not sure if Women's swimming and diving is the same as football.  Good luck to Shenandoah.  I don't wan't the Mount Union players to have two years of sub-par football championships.  An empty stadium is going to look horrible on ESPN if it's Mount vs UW-Whoever or Minnesota team of the year or East region darling.  But the opposite of that is, how much money is a UMHB "home game" going to bring into Shenandoah?

I hope it works and is not too terrible.  D3 deserves better.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 18, 2017, 03:25:16 pm
Men's and women's swimming and diving (they're hosted together, folks) is a different animal. It's definitely a logistical challenge, but it's not a spectator sport, and I will be hoping to see butts in seats for football.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wally_wabash on December 18, 2017, 03:33:37 pm
How well did the City of Shenandoah handle the NCAA D-III Women's Swimming and Diving Championships, March 15-18, 2017?  The city also hosted D3 S&D Nationals in 2013 and 2015.

Was that experience something that the city learned it did not want to deal with the NCAA again?

Was the NCAA happy with the community's support of the event, such that the NCAA will no longer favorably receive a bid from Shenandoah for another Championship?

https://www.egovlink.com/public_documents300/shenandoah/published_documents/Communications/2017/NCAA%20Announcement%20REVISED.pdf

not sure if Women's swimming and diving is the same as football.  Good luck to Shenandoah.  I don't wan't the Mount Union players to have two years of sub-par football championships.  An empty stadium is going to look horrible on ESPN if it's Mount vs UW-Whoever or Minnesota team of the year or East region darling.  But the opposite of that is, how much money is a UMHB "home game" going to bring into Shenandoah?

I hope it works and is not too terrible.  D3 deserves better.

Come on.  You have to give it a chance at least.  They deserve people to go into it next year with at least an open mind.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on December 18, 2017, 03:56:11 pm
How well did the City of Shenandoah handle the NCAA D-III Women's Swimming and Diving Championships, March 15-18, 2017?  The city also hosted D3 S&D Nationals in 2013 and 2015.

Was that experience something that the city learned it did not want to deal with the NCAA again?

Was the NCAA happy with the community's support of the event, such that the NCAA will no longer favorably receive a bid from Shenandoah for another Championship?

https://www.egovlink.com/public_documents300/shenandoah/published_documents/Communications/2017/NCAA%20Announcement%20REVISED.pdf

not sure if Women's swimming and diving is the same as football.  Good luck to Shenandoah.  I don't wan't the Mount Union players to have two years of sub-par football championships.  An empty stadium is going to look horrible on ESPN if it's Mount vs UW-Whoever or Minnesota team of the year or East region darling.  But the opposite of that is, how much money is a UMHB "home game" going to bring into Shenandoah?

I hope it works and is not too terrible.  D3 deserves better.

Come on.  You have to give it a chance at least.  They deserve people to go into it next year with at least an open mind.

I'll give it a chance, but I'm just reading the tea leaves.  The local support seems to be lacking, and Mount/UW-?/Linfield/East fans are all going to have trouble booking a flight within 4-5 days to Houston.  Seems like trouble. 

Shenandoah should invest in a few thousand purple t-shirts for all of the free tickets that they will be giving away.  Pretty good chance they will blend in with whatever teams are in the game. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: AO on December 18, 2017, 04:12:36 pm
Question for you Dave or anyone else that may have more historical knowledge than I do. I too have seen the comments that the people of Shenandoah don't care and that will clearly mean that the product will be sub standard. My question, do we know what the people of Salem thought 25 years ago? 25 years ago if the city council members of Shenandoah would have made the same comments none of us would have known. Clearly I know that Salem is more in D3 country so I am sure there was more buy in initially but that doesn't mean it wasn't a lot of work for them and didn't require a few years to earn the good will that is obviously this many years later.

I do have my doubts about the success of a Texas Stagg Bowl but I am confident that since UMHB is listed as a co-sponsor of the event we will not let it be a terrible event.

Sorry for my delay... it has been a crazy week and I simply didn't have time to be on the boards.

The reason I and others have made the comments about Shenandoah is in what we have seen publicly. The city council meetings have been anything but positive. The information I am getting behind the scenes has been less than encouraging. I certainly am not saying the game and event will be an epic fail, but I also reference you to the final D3football.com podcast where they had one of football's former liaisons... his comments are worth listening to because he points out just why Shenandoah and even Canton won't live up to expectations for more than just those of us who are so familiar with the event.

Can someone give me a good reason why the athletes are going to like Houston/Canton less than Salem?  I'm sure the media/staff/admins are going to miss the Salem gift packs that they get in their hotel rooms. 
 

Feel free to ask the student-athletes. They speak highly of the Salem experience every time I ask them. Those around the championships talk about how the student-athletes are treated better in Salem than any other place in the NCAAs.

Salem and taken the championships in the NCAA and put them on another level. I have said this so often I feel like I may be a broken record, but they have elevated the student-athlete experience more than just about anyone in the entire NCAA. It isn't about gift bags for those like media (I have gotten one on a few occasions; certainly not the majority of my visits). It is about the gift bags the SAs get - something Salem was the first to do in the entire NCAA. It is about the hospitality, how details like laundry are taken care of, and how the SAs are treated from the moment they win their semifinal game (in the case of football) through their departure of Salem. The region has elevated the experience for the student-athletes to something that even the D1 bowl games can't compare with (again, I reference you to the podcast). Community service, celebrations, game environment. There are things Salem does and started doing that the NCAA has made mandatory at all of their other championships - and being one who has been to other championships, those experiences for the SAs still aren't on the same level as Salem. They deserve the props and applause for what they have done for 86 total NCAA championships (70 in DIII) so far and will continue to do, though on a small scale after March.

The bar Salem has set is probably impossible to meet. As a result, we all have to lower our expectations - plain and simple. Salem even pushed us, at D3sports and personally, to do better. We wouldn't have done the Gagliardi, Pregame, Hoopsville Courtside, and other stuff nearly as much or as well as we have done them if not for the individuals like Carey Harveycutter, John Saunders, Brad Bankston, JJ Nekeloff, Paul, Brian, and many others too numerous to mention have been driven to make the student-athletes' experience better including making sure we did things better as a result.

It is about the student-athletes ... never mistake that in any of our comments.

As for the assertion about Salem 25 years ago... the stories are numerous... they wanted to do this. They fought to do this. They did their research and made sure they were prepared. Ask anyone in Salem, the NCAA, or elsewhere and the decision to come to Salem was not one that was orchestrated. The committee talks about being blown away by Salem about why they wanted the Stagg Bowl. There weren't city council meetings that left people scratching their heads. Those stories were repeated several times this week.

Now, no one will tell you it didn't take Salem a few years to settle in. The joke last night was that it took ten years. LOL The reality is it will take time, but that is also how moving the championships around could end up doing more harm than good. What Shenandoah realizes needs to be improved from the first year only has the second year to be either implemented or ignored (because it is only one more year). Same with Canton. The disadvantage with always moving the championships around is that the hosts never have time to iron things out. Salem never sat on its rear-ends thinking they had solved things. Even after nearly 90 championships they are constantly looking to do things better.
Took some notes while listening to the podcast, maybe I can pass this on to the Shenandoah/Canton folks.
Reasons why Salem is great:
Driving Distance for at least one of the teams - tough to control this one, but odds are good Mount and UMHB will be involved and able to drive at least one of the two years you host.
Relationships - Carey Harveycutter sounds like a tough guy to beat in this regard-just be yourself.
Community - Mostly hope for the best, but it sounds like that mostly refers to the city providing for stadium upgrades which won't be necessary in Shenandoah or Canton.
Better than 1987 Blue Bonnet Bowl - You have a major advantage in that the players are actually excited about the Stagg Bowl.
Great snow removal Shouldn't be much of an issue for Shenandoah, Canton might also have more snow plows that Salem?
Laser tag Should be available in both places?  I know the FCS championship also hosts a fun night at a bowling alley/arcade with amazing BBQ, could be something to try to copy.
Giant gift bags including soda, toothpaste, and razors Pretty self-explanatory.  That's a far cheaper gift bag than the $550 the D1 bowls give out in gifts to 250 players on both teams.
60 experienced staff including ushers/security Might be relatively easy to recruit and train staff considering how UMHB and Canton are used to hosting well attended football games.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 18, 2017, 04:15:47 pm
merle -- you're incorrect about flying to Houston. While it's true that the vast majority of Division III schools (even the vast majority of Stagg Bowl teams from the past decade) would have to fly to Houston, there are a ton of flights and available seats into that market, compared to flying to ROA or even CAK.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on December 18, 2017, 04:39:59 pm
How well did the City of Shenandoah handle the NCAA D-III Women's Swimming and Diving Championships, March 15-18, 2017?  The city also hosted D3 S&D Nationals in 2013 and 2015.

Was that experience something that the city learned it did not want to deal with the NCAA again?

Was the NCAA happy with the community's support of the event, such that the NCAA will no longer favorably receive a bid from Shenandoah for another Championship?

https://www.egovlink.com/public_documents300/shenandoah/published_documents/Communications/2017/NCAA%20Announcement%20REVISED.pdf

not sure if Women's swimming and diving is the same as football.  Good luck to Shenandoah.  I don't wan't the Mount Union players to have two years of sub-par football championships.  An empty stadium is going to look horrible on ESPN if it's Mount vs UW-Whoever or Minnesota team of the year or East region darling.  But the opposite of that is, how much money is a UMHB "home game" going to bring into Shenandoah?

I hope it works and is not too terrible.  D3 deserves better.

Come on.  You have to give it a chance at least.  They deserve people to go into it next year with at least an open mind.

I'll give it a chance, but I'm just reading the tea leaves.  The local support seems to be lacking, and Mount/UW-?/Linfield/East fans are all going to have trouble booking a flight within 4-5 days to Houston.  Seems like trouble. 

Shenandoah should invest in a few thousand purple t-shirts for all of the free tickets that they will be giving away.  Pretty good chance they will blend in with whatever teams are in the game.

Man if this has been you giving it a chance I can't imagine what you would say to something you aren't.

And please explain to me how fans are going to have trouble finding flights into one of the biggest cities in America?  I get it, this is going to cause more people to have to fly but its not like non-crazy fans didn't already have to do that. The Wisconsin schools both had 13ish hour drives to get to Salem so it not like it was a short drive and obviously Linfield fans would probably welcome not having to fly across the entire country.

This may end up being a terrible game, I have no idea, but if a few Mount Union people have to drive to Texas for the game they will be passing up a fairly easy but expensive flight or have to do what a lot of UMHB fans did and drive close to 20 hours each way to get there.

Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on December 18, 2017, 04:45:15 pm
I shouldn't have said finding flights, but rather finding affordable flights in 4-5 days.  Flights will be easy to book, but will it be worth it?

because UMHB fans had to drive far or fly, the rest of D3 should have to for two years?  nah

I will give it a chance, but it's still stupid. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Augie6 on December 18, 2017, 04:47:49 pm
I can attest there is no guarantee on weather for the Stagg Bowl.  I played on Augie's 4 championship teams.  The first two years, the Stagg Bowl was in King's Island, OH at the College Football Hall of Fame (prior to it moving a couple of times).  The weather wasn't great either year, but 1984 was particularly bad with 8 inches of snow on the ground and the field was basically frozen for the game.  We were excited to go to Phenix City the next year, but the temp at game time was unusually cold for Alabama, a little under 30 degrees, and the satellite equipment that was to be used to broadcast the game froze up, so the game wasn't carried live on TV.  Regardless of location, weather, or anything else, I have lots of great memories of all of the games.  Playing for a National Championship is what's important, not where it's at. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 18, 2017, 05:02:24 pm
I shouldn't have said finding flights, but rather finding affordable flights in 4-5 days.  Flights will be easy to book, but will it be worth it?
You have 2 (two) major hubs in Houston.  IAH is a hub for Delta Airlines.

IAH  -- airlines  http://www.fly2houston.com/iah/airlines/

HOU (Houston Hobby on the south side of town) is hub for Southwest.

http://www.fly2houston.com/hou/airlines/

You are going to rent a car anyway, Hobby is also an option.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: CruGuy on December 18, 2017, 05:05:06 pm
There's a whole lot of negativity here about Shenandoah, and most of that probably has to do with the city manager who won the bid moving on and failing to leave behind someone who still had the vision. Obviously this is not Salem, a small town that lives for this game and embraces the players and the game in a very special way.

However, Salem is not Shenandoah either, and this has the opportunity to be the greatest possible experience for D-3 fans if they decide to embrace it. For starters Shenandoah is not really a thing, it's just some lines on a map. This is the Woodlands. The Woodlands has an abundance of luxury hotels (and affordable not luxury hotels), shopping, bars, restaurants, and entertainment. I saw somewhere in this thread, someone was worried about laser tag. The Woodlands has Top Golf, Main Event, multiple full service state of the art movie theaters, a trampoline park, and access to about 50 golf courses that will be playable, you know, because the weather will be warmer than 35 degrees.

IAH is 25 minutes away. As someone who has spent a whole lot of time looking at airport schedules, locations, pricing, and rental cars the last two years, I can promise you it will be easier to book in and out of Houston than it is Salem, if you live more than a 3 hour drive away from Salem.

For all y'all in Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ohio, and the North East you really should start planning an epic guy's weekend now, regardless of how your team fares in the playoffs next year. I promise this trip won't disappoint.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on December 18, 2017, 05:11:03 pm
I shouldn't have said finding flights, but rather finding affordable flights in 4-5 days.  Flights will be easy to book, but will it be worth it?

Well again many many fans have had to find similar flights over the years so affordability is usually not much of a concern for the crazy football fan.

As for the fans and if it will be worth the trip, I would be shocked if UMHB allowed there name to be seen in a negative light since it is connected to this event. I know that they were making sure they noticed everything possible this year to prepare for the next two years of hosting the event.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on December 18, 2017, 05:37:07 pm
I shouldn't have said finding flights, but rather finding affordable flights in 4-5 days.  Flights will be easy to book, but will it be worth it?

Well again many many fans have had to find similar flights over the years so affordability is usually not much of a concern for the crazy football fan.

As for the fans and if it will be worth the trip, I would be shocked if UMHB allowed there name to be seen in a negative light since it is connected to this event. I know that they were making sure they noticed everything possible this year to prepare for the next two years of hosting the event.

D3 football fans are not the same as FBS or even FCS sort of schools.  I hope Texas makes out in its two years, but the majority of D3 fans are more likely to drive rather than fly.  I'm trying to figure a way out to fly to Texas next year, but how do tailgaters travel?  Fly and go to the game and fly out? how boring
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on December 18, 2017, 05:58:26 pm
I shouldn't have said finding flights, but rather finding affordable flights in 4-5 days.  Flights will be easy to book, but will it be worth it?

Well again many many fans have had to find similar flights over the years so affordability is usually not much of a concern for the crazy football fan.

As for the fans and if it will be worth the trip, I would be shocked if UMHB allowed there name to be seen in a negative light since it is connected to this event. I know that they were making sure they noticed everything possible this year to prepare for the next two years of hosting the event.

D3 football fans are not the same as FBS or even FCS sort of schools.  I hope Texas makes out in its two years, but the majority of D3 fans are more likely to drive rather than fly.  I'm trying to figure a way out to fly to Texas next year, but how do tailgaters travel?  Fly and go to the game and fly out? how boring

Wisconsin to Salem is approximately 13 hours
Minneapolis to Salem is approximately 17 hours
Belton to Salem is approximately 18 hours

Did you care how any of these people tailgated?   
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 18, 2017, 06:28:42 pm
I shouldn't have said finding flights, but rather finding affordable flights in 4-5 days.  Flights will be easy to book, but will it be worth it?

Well again many many fans have had to find similar flights over the years so affordability is usually not much of a concern for the crazy football fan.

As for the fans and if it will be worth the trip, I would be shocked if UMHB allowed there name to be seen in a negative light since it is connected to this event. I know that they were making sure they noticed everything possible this year to prepare for the next two years of hosting the event.

D3 football fans are not the same as FBS or even FCS sort of schools.  I hope Texas makes out in its two years, but the majority of D3 fans are more likely to drive rather than fly.  I'm trying to figure a way out to fly to Texas next year, but how do tailgaters travel?  Fly and go to the game and fly out? how boring
The Woodlands area is a great place to visit. If you are married (or have a significant other), have 'em do some serious "National Championship shopping" in The Woodlands.

https://www.thewoodlandsmall.com/en.html
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: thewaterboy on December 18, 2017, 10:47:24 pm
Question: I read somewhere that UMHB was the "host institution" for the Stagg Bowls to be held in Texas. Is this a thing?

Who was the host institution in Salem?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 18, 2017, 11:01:34 pm
Question: I read somewhere that UMHB was the "host institution" for the Stagg Bowls to be held in Texas. Is this a thing?

Who was the host institution in Salem?

It is. The host institution in Salem is the Old Dominion Athletic Conference.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: thewaterboy on December 19, 2017, 01:25:06 am
Question: I read somewhere that UMHB was the "host institution" for the Stagg Bowls to be held in Texas. Is this a thing?

Who was the host institution in Salem?

It is. The host institution in Salem is the Old Dominion Athletic Conference.
Just wondering. Thanks! And I assume when it comes to Canton it'll be Mount Union.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: ADL70 on December 19, 2017, 08:23:49 am
OAC
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: edward de vere on December 19, 2017, 12:46:17 pm
I predict Shenandoah and UMHB will do a great job with the game and week.

I predict that if UMHB is in the Stagg Bowl attendance will be terrific.

And I predict that if UMHB is NOT in the Stagg Bowl, attendance (or at least PAID attendance) will be awful.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: gordonmann on December 19, 2017, 01:14:09 pm
The NCAA requires each bidding city to have a Division III college or conference as a sponsor. When we spoke with the folks in Fort Wayne who won the bid to host the men's basketball championships, they mentioned that they submitted multiple bids, but not one for Division II basketball because they couldn't find a local partner.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on December 19, 2017, 03:30:19 pm
I shouldn't have said finding flights, but rather finding affordable flights in 4-5 days.  Flights will be easy to book, but will it be worth it?

Well again many many fans have had to find similar flights over the years so affordability is usually not much of a concern for the crazy football fan.

As for the fans and if it will be worth the trip, I would be shocked if UMHB allowed there name to be seen in a negative light since it is connected to this event. I know that they were making sure they noticed everything possible this year to prepare for the next two years of hosting the event.

D3 football fans are not the same as FBS or even FCS sort of schools.  I hope Texas makes out in its two years, but the majority of D3 fans are more likely to drive rather than fly.  I'm trying to figure a way out to fly to Texas next year, but how do tailgaters travel?  Fly and go to the game and fly out? how boring

Wisconsin to Salem is approximately 13 hours
Minneapolis to Salem is approximately 17 hours
Belton to Salem is approximately 18 hours

Did you care how any of these people tailgated?   

no not really, but that's what happens when you are far away.  I didn't pick Salem, but its sort of a central location.  Canton is an extremely central location for the D3 football world.  Texas is an island to all but about a dozen or so D3 schools.  Should be a tremendous atmosphere in '18 and '19.....
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on December 19, 2017, 04:09:55 pm
I shouldn't have said finding flights, but rather finding affordable flights in 4-5 days.  Flights will be easy to book, but will it be worth it?

Well again many many fans have had to find similar flights over the years so affordability is usually not much of a concern for the crazy football fan.

As for the fans and if it will be worth the trip, I would be shocked if UMHB allowed there name to be seen in a negative light since it is connected to this event. I know that they were making sure they noticed everything possible this year to prepare for the next two years of hosting the event.

D3 football fans are not the same as FBS or even FCS sort of schools.  I hope Texas makes out in its two years, but the majority of D3 fans are more likely to drive rather than fly.  I'm trying to figure a way out to fly to Texas next year, but how do tailgaters travel?  Fly and go to the game and fly out? how boring

Wisconsin to Salem is approximately 13 hours
Minneapolis to Salem is approximately 17 hours
Belton to Salem is approximately 18 hours

Did you care how any of these people tailgated?   

no not really, but that's what happens when you are far away.  I didn't pick Salem, but its sort of a central location.  Canton is an extremely central location for the D3 football world.  Texas is an island to all but about a dozen or so D3 schools.  Should be a tremendous atmosphere in '18 and '19.....

It may be central to you and even a good number of D3 teams but that doesn't mean its going to help the teams that are most likely to be there.

Looking at the top 4 teams, only Mount Union would be within driving distance using the 500 mile rule. If you expand to the top 10, 5 of them would be flying into Canton meaning at least a 10 hour drive for fans. 

So how great is that atmosphere going to be if the game doesn't include Mount Union and includes UMHB, UW Oshkosh, St. Thomas, Linfield, or frankly any team that is 5+ hours from Canton?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: skunks_sidekick on December 19, 2017, 07:59:07 pm
Cru..it's going to be great because of the following...

1.  It's at the PRO FOOTBALL HOF
2.  It's at the completely renovated Tom Benson Stadium (he donated $10 million to upgrade/re-do the stadium)
3.  The folks in Canton host the greatest football event/game/fun that has even happened
4.  They (unlike TX) will ensure this event is bigger, better, more over the top, than any other
5.  UMU has NOTHING to do with this, but it sure would be fun if they were in it
6.  More upgrades are coming, although in reality I don't know if they will be in place before the game

So....I think things in Canton will be good. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 19, 2017, 08:02:42 pm
I think the synergy with the Pro Football HOF has the potential to make this really cool.
I think the weather has the potential to make this really cold. I don't suppose those coming upgrades include a roof?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: skunks_sidekick on December 19, 2017, 10:49:59 pm
I think the synergy with the Pro Football HOF has the potential to make this really cool.
I think the weather has the potential to make this really cold. I don't suppose those coming upgrades include a roof?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: skunks_sidekick on December 19, 2017, 11:34:44 pm
I think the synergy with the Pro Football HOF has the potential to make this really cool.
I think the weather has the potential to make this really cold. I don't suppose those coming upgrades include a roof?

I swear I already answered this, but evidently it didn't post.  From Pat's computer to the football gods ears. 
We need a global warming winter, and not an old school NE Ohio winter.  Either way the folks in Canton will be ready.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 20, 2017, 12:25:49 am
I think the synergy with the Pro Football HOF has the potential to make this really cool.
I think the weather has the potential to make this really cold. I don't suppose those coming upgrades include a roof?

Really cold is not fair!  IMHO, that neutralizes the HOF, the $10M upgrade, Canton community support.

Put a roof on the stadium and even the proximity to UMU is ameliorated.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: SaintsFAN on December 20, 2017, 07:45:30 am
I shouldn't have said finding flights, but rather finding affordable flights in 4-5 days.  Flights will be easy to book, but will it be worth it?
You have 2 (two) major hubs in Houston.  IAH is a hub for Delta Airlines.

IAH  -- airlines  http://www.fly2houston.com/iah/airlines/

HOU (Houston Hobby on the south side of town) is hub for Southwest.

http://www.fly2houston.com/hou/airlines/

You are going to rent a car anyway, Hobby is also an option.

I thought IAH was Continental, which turned into United?  United is the only decent carrier who flies into IAH direct from Boston. 

To the point about pricing:  I've found United is mostly cheaper than the other major airlines (outside of JetBlu/Southwest/Spirit).  I've seen their fares at 33% less than Delta/American in December. 

Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: SaintsFAN on December 20, 2017, 07:58:50 am
So how great is that atmosphere going to be if the game doesn't include Mount Union and includes UMHB, UW Oshkosh, St. Thomas, Linfield, or frankly any team that is 5+ hours from Canton?

How great was the atmosphere in last year's Stagg Bowl??

Now, I usually disagree with Merle completely, but:  How many fans not connected to teams in the Stagg will travel to Houston?  I think that was the advantage of Salem and will be for Canton. You had people like Wesleydad, wallywabash, myself, the Stone Station crew (after they had their magical season in 2001) showing up at the Stagg to check it out. 

I believe they should've kept the game within driving distance for lots of D3 fans, like it was in Salem.   

We'll see what happens. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on December 20, 2017, 10:57:43 am
So how great is that atmosphere going to be if the game doesn't include Mount Union and includes UMHB, UW Oshkosh, St. Thomas, Linfield, or frankly any team that is 5+ hours from Canton?

How great was the atmosphere in last year's Stagg Bowl??

Now, I usually disagree with Merle completely, but:  How many fans not connected to teams in the Stagg will travel to Houston?  I think that was the advantage of Salem and will be for Canton. You had people like Wesleydad, wallywabash, myself, the Stone Station crew (after they had their magical season in 2001) showing up at the Stagg to check it out. 

I believe they should've kept the game within driving distance for lots of D3 fans, like it was in Salem.   

We'll see what happens.

I thought the atmosphere was great but it was one of the lowest attended Stagg Bowls so distance seems to play some impact. I acknowledge that distance will be greater in Texas (except for any Texas school of course) but Canton is not right down the street for some likely Stagg Bowl teams either. Canton will require many fans to make the decision to make a very long road trip or fly.

I truly believe that Canton will be a great location, many things about it are great, but I think we have to at least wait and see what the Texas Stagg Bowl will be like before declaring it will be the worst thing ever.

Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: smedindy on December 20, 2017, 02:45:51 pm
I just don't think Merle wants to go to Texas...
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on December 20, 2017, 02:58:27 pm
I just don't think Merle wants to go to Texas...

who does?

I'm making plans to be there in 12 months.  But it just wont be the same.

The Shenandoah city council passed their resolutions since they felt they had to.  Complaining about busing the teams around just doesn't strike me as enthusiastic locals
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: edward de vere on December 20, 2017, 03:21:36 pm
I just don't think Merle wants to go to Texas...

I'm not entirely sure Texas wants Merle to come. . . .
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on December 20, 2017, 03:41:34 pm
I just don't think Merle wants to go to Texas...

I'm not entirely sure Texas wants Merle to come. . . .

you walked into a your mom joke, but I'm going to stay above the fray. 

The Stagg Bowl is in Texas now. IMO, it sucks, but it is what it is. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: smedindy on December 21, 2017, 01:16:01 am
Some areas of Texas are neat - San Antonio / Austin are fantastic. I myself want to see the Big Bend area, and I liked the desert around El Paso (I needed some solace when I was there).

I'm sorry that it doesn't match up with the high quality entertainment found in Alliance, Canton / Akron, or even Kent. I'm sure there's some exciting sights along US 62.

(I'm originally from BFE Indiana, so....I get it.)
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: GillCJ1 on December 21, 2017, 09:19:08 am
Some areas of Texas are neat - San Antonio / Austin are fantastic. I myself want to see the Big Bend area, and I liked the desert around El Paso (I needed some solace when I was there).

I'm sorry that it doesn't match up with the high quality entertainment found in Alliance, Canton / Akron, or even Kent. I'm sure there's some exciting sights along US 62.

(I'm originally from BFE Indiana, so....I get it.)


Austin is great and if I were single and/or without kids, I'd probably be looking to move there.  As it stands, I'm only 45 minutes or so away, so still close enough to visit.  San Antonio is my favorite city in the state, currently.  My in-laws live there and it has LOADS of family-friendly things to do.  Plus the food is excellent (but really, it's good everywhere around here).

I went to Big Bend over Spring Break 2016.  My wife had the week off (she works at UMHB) so I took some vacation and we all made the trek.  It's not a short drive, even when you live in the same state.  But boy was it worth it.  Beautiful landscapes.  Canoeing down the Rio Grande was a highlight.

Sorry for further derailing the topic.  I'll be attending the Shenandoah Stagg the next 2 years - with or without the Cru on the field.  Hoping for a surprisingly good event and looking forward to meeting other d3 posters.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Toby Taff on December 22, 2017, 04:10:11 am
if anyone attending the Stagg Bowl is interested in historical sites, Shenandoah isn’t very far (80 miles) from the original site of Baylor College, the school that became UMHB and Baylor University. It’s also near Washington on the Brazos, Goliad and San Jacinto, Important Republic of Texas sites. It’s just a few hours from the Alamo, and a few hours from Cajun Country in deep southern Louisiana. If you’re coming for the Stagg no matter the teams, plan for an extra day and explore. It’s totally worth it.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: hsbsballcoach7 on December 22, 2017, 06:19:56 pm
I've driven to 4 of the last 6 Stagg Bowls UMU was involved with in Salem. I have no problem taking a day off from work and driving up to 8 hours away. Now if we make it again...Texas is a long drive for me and my gang. If I get a raise, I'd fly in, watch and fly out next day. It's what most Mount fans have done forever. Unless there's something in the immediate area or on the way you go home. I hope Texas does well with next years experience, but I'm pumped for 3 years in canton. I have a feeling that even if Mount isn't in the final, there will be Mount fans there among other OAC, PAC, CCIW fans/coaches bc of proximity and the HOF directly next door to the stadium for a visit. I used to attend the State High School Finals in Canton and lots of neutral fans showed up to watch. If UMU makes that game, let's just say those casual UMU supporters will be coming out in full force.

Is there any facility near Indianapolis that would house the Stagg Bowl in the future? That seems like a perfect location geographically speaking.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ron Boerger on December 23, 2017, 06:07:38 pm

Austin is great and if I were single and/or without kids, I'd probably be looking to move there.  As it stands, I'm only 45 minutes or so away, so still close enough to visit.  San Antonio is my favorite city in the state, currently.  My in-laws live there and it has LOADS of family-friendly things to do.  Plus the food is excellent (but really, it's good everywhere around here).

I went to Big Bend over Spring Break 2016.  My wife had the week off (she works at UMHB) so I took some vacation and we all made the trek.  It's not a short drive, even when you live in the same state.  But boy was it worth it.  Beautiful landscapes.  Canoeing down the Rio Grande was a highlight.

Sorry for further derailing the topic.  I'll be attending the Shenandoah Stagg the next 2 years - with or without the Cru on the field.  Hoping for a surprisingly good event and looking forward to meeting other d3 posters.

Austin is great if you are relatively well-off (housing, property taxes are obscene for Texas) and don't mind dealing with some of the worst traffic in the country (a 2017 Forbes ranking places it 4th worst).   San Antonio can't offer the tech world or hipster quotient Austin does but it's certainly more affordable and has LOADS of history Austin can't touch.   The vibe between the two is totally different. 

I'll probably go to Shenandoah too but it'll be a day trip.   Been to Houston enough in my life in a previous job. 

PS - Big Bend is awesome :)
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: phil on December 23, 2017, 07:28:12 pm
Well, here's my two cents from somebody who lives in The Woodlands and whose high school's home stadium is next year's host. Frankly, I'm a bit ambivalent about the whole deal. I grew tired of MUC vs. the world long before I moved from New Jersey over a decade ago. But that's not to say I don't want the event to do well here in Texas. In fact, I was planning to have Pat and his entourage over for a good old fashioned, New Jersey style, Italian dinner. We'll fire up the hot tub and light a few cigars and sit poolside (yes we'll probably be outside. It was 81° in The Woodlands yesterday). We'll talk about the old days when TCNJ had a serviceable football team, Rowan was the evil empire (fyi, KC Keeler, Rowan's former coach followed me and is at Sam Houston, just up the road in Huntsville), and neither of us had children – much less children in college.

Everyone's welcome except Merle. I can give him directions to a Taco Bell in El Paso out of the kindness of my heart.

Look, I have no idea how the Stagg Bowl will be embraced locally. If the folks from Shenandoah do their job, I don't see why this wouldn't work. The demographics of the schools which use Woodforest Bank Stadium as their home field is ridiculous. The Woodlands High School alone has 3,000 students in grades 10-12. The first Texas high school football game I ever attended (see photo), drew 10,000 for a Friday night game. The school district has 61 Campuses which includes:
30 Elementary Schools
3 K-6 Schools
9 Intermediate Schools
7 Junior High Schools
3 Ninth Grade Schools
6 High Schools
The district has 61,000 students – and that's increasing at 1,500 students per year. This is ONLY one district – Conroe ISD. If Shenandoah has any success tying into the high school and junior high school coaches and teams in the area, they should do very well. My daughter's junior high school has six football teams. In my mind, the demographics and the infrastructure should make this a huge success – if it's properly promoted (that's a big "if"). Shenandoah is a city on a tiny 1.3 sq. mile spit of land with about 2,000 residents. Better know locally as a speed trap on either side of Rt. 45. In contrast, The Woodlands has 110,000 residents in 44 sq. miles. I have no idea whether or not anybody on the board in Shenandoah has a clue what to do with this event. They've successfully hosted DIII swimming and diving several times, but as Pat pointed out, swimming and diving on that level is not a spectator sport. Should they market and promote this, reach out to the coaches locally and in Houston/Harris County, get the ABC, NBC, CBS, and Fox affiliates involved (which they shouldn't have a problem with considering the amount of filler they stick in their broadcasts every day), the sheer number of people to draw upon in the greater Houston area is unbelievable.

The field is about 20-25 minutes from Bush International Airport. What to do once you're here? Play golf where they play the Shell Houston Open. The Woodlands alone has 135 holes of golf. Catch a Rockets game. Take a tour at NASA. Check out Galveston. Some of the best food in the country is in Houston. The Woodlands is like a resort community. Of course, you can't beat Canton and the Pro Football Hall of Fame ... and then you can go and ... er ... ahhhh ... ummm ... Akron's Hale Farm and Village offers a glimpse of life in the 19th century! Unless it snows...

Merle, all kidding aside, you can come too. Bring wine.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: edward de vere on December 23, 2017, 10:48:51 pm
My daughter's junior high school has six football teams.

Wait, what?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 23, 2017, 11:03:39 pm
My thought for the Stagg Bowl would be to hold a D-3 College recruitment festival in conjunction with the Stagg. The demographics of Conroe ISD are excellent for D3 students.

The extra 1,500 students in the school district mean that most of them are coming from some place other than southeast Texas.  If the NCAA wants to focus on student-athletes in a "target rich" area, then this is one way to do it.

Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: phil on December 24, 2017, 01:00:10 am
My daughter's junior high school has six football teams.

Wait, what?
Edward, I checked with my seventh grade daughter and she said “six”. I went to the Jr. high website and I was wrong. There are 12 teams. This from the website:
•This year McCullough has 12 teams —
Six in 7th grade and six in 8th grade. Teams have been split to optimize student playing time and make our teams competitive.
•Since there are 12 teams, please know what team your child is on and who is their coach. •McCullough’s teams are named after their coach. This should cut down on confusion.

Welcome to Texas!
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Jack Parkman on December 24, 2017, 01:11:04 am
My thought for the Stagg Bowl would be to hold a D-3 College recruitment festival in conjunction with the Stagg. The demographics of Conroe ISD are excellent for D3 students.

The extra 1,500 students in the school district mean that most of them are coming from some place other than southeast Texas.  If the NCAA wants to focus on student-athletes in a "target rich" area, then this is one way to do it.

I thought the same thing.  With the recruiting limitations in D3, playing in TX could give some players a chance to check out the schools playing in the Stage Bowl and it might open some schools up to recruiting more in TX.

Texas loves it's football, a state championship game last night had 25k fans in attendance and it was one of the best games I have ever seen (on tv) at any level.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 24, 2017, 09:05:30 am
A friend's daughter, who lives in the Houston area and who is a swimmer, is going to Allegheny.  Was she exposed to Allegheny through the National Championships?

I am specifically talking about a college night for any student.

This is a premier D-3 intercollegiate activity. I recommend that Conroe ISD (Independent School District) turn this into a Texas-size college fair!
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: hsbsballcoach7 on December 26, 2017, 10:49:10 am
My thought for the Stagg Bowl would be to hold a D-3 College recruitment festival in conjunction with the Stagg. The demographics of Conroe ISD are excellent for D3 students.

The extra 1,500 students in the school district mean that most of them are coming from some place other than southeast Texas.  If the NCAA wants to focus on student-athletes in a "target rich" area, then this is one way to do it.

That is a great idea! Mount Union used to send coaches to Florida to recruitment festivals and greatly increased their presence there 2-3 years ago. How many D1 and D2 programs are there in Texas?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 26, 2017, 11:48:21 am
My thought for the Stagg Bowl would be to hold a D-3 College recruitment festival in conjunction with the Stagg. The demographics of Conroe ISD are excellent for D3 students.

The extra 1,500 students in the school district mean that most of them are coming from some place other than southeast Texas.  If the NCAA wants to focus on student-athletes in a "target rich" area, then this is one way to do it.

That is a great idea! Mount Union used to send coaches to Florida to recruitment festivals and greatly increased their presence there 2-3 years ago. How many D1 and D2 programs are there in Texas?
hsbsballcoach7,

My thoughts for the College Fair is to focus on D3 entirely and not just football.

I posted elsewhere that 4QBs  of the Top 6 teams in the country played HS football in Texas, OU, OSU, Auburn and Alabama. Everyone recruits Texas football.

To re-iterate the thought, Conroe and The Woodlands are a prime demographic location for "D3" college students. Why not get D3 recruiters/admissions personnel from across all of D3 to the Stagg event?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 26, 2017, 12:14:09 pm
I count 12 FBS, 8 FCS and 7 D-2.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on December 27, 2017, 12:01:28 pm
Well, here's my two cents from somebody who lives in The Woodlands and whose high school's home stadium is next year's host. Frankly, I'm a bit ambivalent about the whole deal. I grew tired of MUC vs. the world long before I moved from New Jersey over a decade ago. But that's not to say I don't want the event to do well here in Texas. In fact, I was planning to have Pat and his entourage over for a good old fashioned, New Jersey style, Italian dinner. We'll fire up the hot tub and light a few cigars and sit poolside (yes we'll probably be outside. It was 81° in The Woodlands yesterday). We'll talk about the old days when TCNJ had a serviceable football team, Rowan was the evil empire (fyi, KC Keeler, Rowan's former coach followed me and is at Sam Houston, just up the road in Huntsville), and neither of us had children – much less children in college.

Everyone's welcome except Merle. I can give him directions to a Taco Bell in El Paso out of the kindness of my heart.

Look, I have no idea how the Stagg Bowl will be embraced locally. If the folks from Shenandoah do their job, I don't see why this wouldn't work. The demographics of the schools which use Woodforest Bank Stadium as their home field is ridiculous. The Woodlands High School alone has 3,000 students in grades 10-12. The first Texas high school football game I ever attended (see photo), drew 10,000 for a Friday night game. The school district has 61 Campuses which includes:
30 Elementary Schools
3 K-6 Schools
9 Intermediate Schools
7 Junior High Schools
3 Ninth Grade Schools
6 High Schools
The district has 61,000 students – and that's increasing at 1,500 students per year. This is ONLY one district – Conroe ISD. If Shenandoah has any success tying into the high school and junior high school coaches and teams in the area, they should do very well. My daughter's junior high school has six football teams. In my mind, the demographics and the infrastructure should make this a huge success – if it's properly promoted (that's a big "if"). Shenandoah is a city on a tiny 1.3 sq. mile spit of land with about 2,000 residents. Better know locally as a speed trap on either side of Rt. 45. In contrast, The Woodlands has 110,000 residents in 44 sq. miles. I have no idea whether or not anybody on the board in Shenandoah has a clue what to do with this event. They've successfully hosted DIII swimming and diving several times, but as Pat pointed out, swimming and diving on that level is not a spectator sport. Should they market and promote this, reach out to the coaches locally and in Houston/Harris County, get the ABC, NBC, CBS, and Fox affiliates involved (which they shouldn't have a problem with considering the amount of filler they stick in their broadcasts every day), the sheer number of people to draw upon in the greater Houston area is unbelievable.

The field is about 20-25 minutes from Bush International Airport. What to do once you're here? Play golf where they play the Shell Houston Open. The Woodlands alone has 135 holes of golf. Catch a Rockets game. Take a tour at NASA. Check out Galveston. Some of the best food in the country is in Houston. The Woodlands is like a resort community. Of course, you can't beat Canton and the Pro Football Hall of Fame ... and then you can go and ... er ... ahhhh ... ummm ... Akron's Hale Farm and Village offers a glimpse of life in the 19th century! Unless it snows...

Merle, all kidding aside, you can come too. Bring wine.

wow...so many students! give them the Stagg Bowl forever


I'm sure thousands and thousands of people will be coming down to golf and see NASA and then watch the Stagg Bowl in a 90% empty stadium. 

Maybe, most D3fb fans are more interested in the actual game and might check out the HOF and everything that Canton offers.  There's a "village" being built around the HOF, but I'm sure the Woodlands can compete.  The Woodland wont pay for busing for both teams but they will be a good host...ok.

I'm sure the suburbs of Houston are great, but I'm not moving there.  Most fans are there for 1-2 days, and there won't even be that many of them.   Enjoy your two years, it's not coming back
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: smedindy on December 27, 2017, 06:58:57 pm
Wow, this is getting old. Besides the HOF, there's...um....

You can always check out the William McKinley Presidential Library in Canton and the National First Ladies Library.

Maybe you could drive up to Kent to the Cuyahoga river and set it on fire!

(This is where we walked / this is where we swam / take a picture here / take a souvenir)
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: phil on December 27, 2017, 07:08:27 pm
Maybe, most D3fb fans are more interested in the actual game and might check out the HOF and everything that Canton offers.  There's a "village" being built around the HOF, but I'm sure the Woodlands can compete.  The Woodland wont pay for busing for both teams but they will be a good host...ok.

I'm sure the suburbs of Houston are great, but I'm not moving there.  Most fans are there for 1-2 days, and there won't even be that many of them.   Enjoy your two years, it's not coming back
That's funny Merle, I'm hoping for nothing but success for the Stagg Bowl's future, while you seem to revel in the possibility of a disaster in Texas. I mean with decent weather virtually assured in the fourth largest Metropolitan area in the country, let's hope (well I'll hope and you can just gnash your teeth), for a couple of good years in Texas before 100,000 football-crazy MUC fans decent on beautiful Canton, Ohio.

As you pointed out, most people only come to the Stagg Bowl for 1-2 days, so outside the HOF and the game itself, they won't get to experience "Everything Canton Has To Offer". Once you venture outside the HOF Village and its four star ($$$$) NFL hotel, you're in statistically the 2nd worst small city for crime in the country. What to see first? NBA G team the Canton Charge? The McKinley Presidential library? Arby's? With the 37° average December temps, I'm sure you'll need to beat away the throngs of locals with a stick should MHB play Berry in a Stagg Bowl. Enjoy your 14° temps and 0° wind chill to go along with your sunny disposition today...

BTW, I know nothing about Canton, but a quick Google search turned up the following results:
These Are The 10 Most Miserable Midwest Cities
These Are The 10 Most Ghetto Cities In Ohio
Canton ranked as one of the top 20 worst cities to live in
Canton named one of “Worst American Cities to Live In
These Are The 10 Most Dangerous Cities In Ohio For 2018

Thankfully, $700 Million should buy one helluva HOF Village – with prices to match.



Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: ADL70 on December 27, 2017, 10:21:58 pm
Arby's isn't a Canton advantage.  There's one nine minutes from Woodforest Bank Stadium.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on December 28, 2017, 02:49:41 pm
Maybe, most D3fb fans are more interested in the actual game and might check out the HOF and everything that Canton offers.  There's a "village" being built around the HOF, but I'm sure the Woodlands can compete.  The Woodland wont pay for busing for both teams but they will be a good host...ok.

I'm sure the suburbs of Houston are great, but I'm not moving there.  Most fans are there for 1-2 days, and there won't even be that many of them.   Enjoy your two years, it's not coming back
That's funny Merle, I'm hoping for nothing but success for the Stagg Bowl's future, while you seem to revel in the possibility of a disaster in Texas. I mean with decent weather virtually assured in the fourth largest Metropolitan area in the country, let's hope (well I'll hope and you can just gnash your teeth), for a couple of good years in Texas before 100,000 football-crazy MUC fans decent on beautiful Canton, Ohio.

As you pointed out, most people only come to the Stagg Bowl for 1-2 days, so outside the HOF and the game itself, they won't get to experience "Everything Canton Has To Offer". Once you venture outside the HOF Village and its four star ($$$$) NFL hotel, you're in statistically the 2nd worst small city for crime in the country. What to see first? NBA G team the Canton Charge? The McKinley Presidential library? Arby's? With the 37° average December temps, I'm sure you'll need to beat away the throngs of locals with a stick should MHB play Berry in a Stagg Bowl. Enjoy your 14° temps and 0° wind chill to go along with your sunny disposition today...

BTW, I know nothing about Canton, but a quick Google search turned up the following results:
These Are The 10 Most Miserable Midwest Cities
These Are The 10 Most Ghetto Cities In Ohio
Canton ranked as one of the top 20 worst cities to live in
Canton named one of “Worst American Cities to Live In
These Are The 10 Most Dangerous Cities In Ohio For 2018

Thankfully, $700 Million should buy one helluva HOF Village – with prices to match.

I can't wait to see the tremendous crowds that Houston can bring to the Stagg Bowl.  I'm sure those millions of people are just dying to go to a football game that they have never heard of or heard of either school in the game.  You can rip on Canton all that you want, but the Canton city council will not be complaining about the cost of the Stagg Bowl and how much busing each team will be.  Please tell me how great that Shenandoah is, without bringing up things that are two exits up from Tom Benson HOF Stadium in garbage Canton. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Warren Thompson on December 28, 2017, 04:41:09 pm
Phil: I'm happy to see you in good form. Please e-mail me.

~ wt
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: DFWCrufan on December 28, 2017, 05:43:42 pm
My thought for the Stagg Bowl would be to hold a D-3 College recruitment festival in conjunction with the Stagg. The demographics of Conroe ISD are excellent for D3 students.

The extra 1,500 students in the school district mean that most of them are coming from some place other than southeast Texas.  If the NCAA wants to focus on student-athletes in a "target rich" area, then this is one way to do it.

Interesting notion, if you look at the Shenandoah location you have UMHB, HSU, McMurry, ETBU, Southwestern and even Louisiana College all in decent striking distance of that site from the ASC, even TLU from Seguin is only 2 hours away. But, Austin and Trinity could also benefit from exposure at a D3 Village of sorts. There are an awful lot of High schools from southern, central and even North Texas, the DFW area producing outstanding talent and students which if the local HS coaches were approached I could see them travel to an event like this to have a chance for exposure to a D3 program, not all of these talented kids are going SEC or DII. So if they play their cards right, I believe there could be as you pointed out a fabulous chance for recruiting possibilities and exposure, if they play the cards right.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 28, 2017, 06:49:57 pm
My thought for the Stagg Bowl would be to hold a D-3 College recruitment festival in conjunction with the Stagg. The demographics of Conroe ISD are excellent for D3 students.

The extra 1,500 students in the school district mean that most of them are coming from some place other than southeast Texas.  If the NCAA wants to focus on student-athletes in a "target rich" area, then this is one way to do it.

Interesting notion, if you look at the Shenandoah location you have UMHB, HSU, McMurry, ETBU, Southwestern and even Louisiana College all in decent striking distance of that site from the ASC, even TLU from Seguin is only 2 hours away. But, Austin and Trinity could also benefit from exposure at a D3 Village of sorts. There are an awful lot of High schools from southern, central and even North Texas, the DFW area producing outstanding talent and students which if the local HS coaches were approached I could see them travel to an event like this to have a chance for exposure to a D3 program, not all of these talented kids are going SEC or DII. So if they play their cards right, I believe there could be as you pointed out a fabulous chance for recruiting possibilities and exposure, if they play the cards right.
Thanks for the comment.

More specifically, I am considering all of the Texas transplants from other areas of the country where there are D3 programs that would love to attract students from Texas.

Let's be honest. The SCAC and ASC attract different students, and there are students in the Conroe/The Woodlands/Houston area who might see themselves going back to parts of the country where they have family,   ...   in the SAA, the ODAC, the OAC, the CCIW, the NCAC, the UAA, the Liberty League, the MIAC, etc.

It would take some sophisticated data-tracking but if the Stagg Bowl gave exposure to D3 and recruiting leads for student-athletes to colleges outside Texas, then that would be another measure of a successful Stagg Bowl,  and a reason for D3 colleges to coordinate a recruiting visit to Shenandoah in 2018 and 2019.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: DFWCrufan on December 29, 2017, 01:03:34 pm
Here's the box and I'm outside it, Could a coordinated effort be made for southern schools (HS) bring their prospective students to some sort of event? A mini camp or exposure camp sort of thing? I know there are all kinds of rules but could this work for those programs you mentioned bring in student athletes and have a sort of D3 experience thing. I dunno what the plans are and I don't know if this was done in Salem but perhaps...
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: desertraider on December 29, 2017, 05:33:07 pm
I am going to estimate less than 3,500 attend. If UMHB plays raise it to 4,500. 10K to attend a Texas HS game is one thing - but this isn't 2 Texas HS playing. St. Eds and St. Ignatius get 10K plus...but not many of them are just "fans of the game". Most are alums and parents. Texas may be Texas but I am sure that most of the 10K that go to those games fit that demographic as well. I just don't see a bunch of random Houston residents saying "Well yee haw! There's a football game in Shenandoah tonight"
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: edward de vere on December 30, 2017, 02:12:08 am
I disagree, based on: 1) Texas football insanity  2)  Good ol' southern hospitality  3)  The desire not to be embarrassed.  4) Extras, i.e. the D# recruitment idea that's been floated.  There are only about a million other possible enhancements.  All you need is one Bill Veeck.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 30, 2017, 10:05:52 am
I disagree, based on: 1) Texas football insanity  2)  Good ol' southern hospitality  3)  The desire not to be embarrassed.  4) Extras, i.e. the D# recruitment idea that's been floated.  There are only about a million other possible enhancements.  All you need is one Bill Veeck.
Names on the backs of jerseys!
A re-creation of the original exploding scoreboard!
Eddie Gaedel to preside over the coin toss!  I like it!
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: ADL70 on December 30, 2017, 12:25:36 pm
A vertically challenged running back that is hidden behind OL.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZzIgZ1yrKk
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: phil on December 30, 2017, 01:29:18 pm
As long as it's better thought through than Disco Demolition Night and 10¢ Beer Night.

Warren Thompson: I emailed you a couple days ago – did you receive?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Toby Taff on December 31, 2017, 01:47:57 am
As long as it's better thought through than Disco Demolition Night and 10¢ Beer Night.

Warren Thompson: I emailed you a couple days ago – did you receive?
10 cent beer night? When I was in college there was a local bar that had penny bar drink night (well drinks)  til 9 on Thursdays. Was a kicker bar, but on Thursdays it was the most diverse place in Temple until 9pm.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on January 03, 2018, 01:29:48 pm
I disagree, based on: 1) Texas football insanity  2)  Good ol' southern hospitality  3)  The desire not to be embarrassed.  4) Extras, i.e. the D# recruitment idea that's been floated.  There are only about a million other possible enhancements.  All you need is one Bill Veeck.

I wonder what the attendance #'s are for the 2017 TX HS semi's held on the same weekend of Stagg Bowl?  I'm sure all of those casual TX football fans would rather buy a ticket to see Mount vs Whitewater instead of watching the TX semi's on TV
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: joelmama on January 03, 2018, 04:40:12 pm

Nobody routinely, or ever, practices in lake effect blizzards.  That kind of condition favors nobody.  This is a bad take. 

Lake effect snow would cancel the game of course (another good reason why the location is less than ideal).  Seasonal snow and cold is another story, and that DOES play into the cold weather team's hands.  Example:  Wesley at UWW 2005.  Snow hits the field that week.  Wesley shows up (which is not a good cold weather team to begin with) and finds out that the cleats they brought were too short.  Too late.  The subsequent slip-laden game results in a 58-6 loss.  UWW practiced on that turf and were ready for the conditions.  Not saying that Wesley would have won the game, but they were better than that.

This was a seeded game.  If this was a championship, how would that show who was the better team?

-Ski
  Canton pretty much never gets lake effect snow.  It is more than 50 miles from Lake Erie and by that distance lake effect is gone.  I live halfway between and we get it sometimes, but mostly it stops short of my location.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: joelmama on January 03, 2018, 05:00:36 pm
Maybe, most D3fb fans are more interested in the actual game and might check out the HOF and everything that Canton offers.  There's a "village" being built around the HOF, but I'm sure the Woodlands can compete.  The Woodland wont pay for busing for both teams but they will be a good host...ok.

I'm sure the suburbs of Houston are great, but I'm not moving there.  Most fans are there for 1-2 days, and there won't even be that many of them.   Enjoy your two years, it's not coming back
That's funny Merle, I'm hoping for nothing but success for the Stagg Bowl's future, while you seem to revel in the possibility of a disaster in Texas. I mean with decent weather virtually assured in the fourth largest Metropolitan area in the country, let's hope (well I'll hope and you can just gnash your teeth), for a couple of good years in Texas before 100,000 football-crazy MUC fans decent on beautiful Canton, Ohio.

As you pointed out, most people only come to the Stagg Bowl for 1-2 days, so outside the HOF and the game itself, they won't get to experience "Everything Canton Has To Offer". Once you venture outside the HOF Village and its four star ($$$$) NFL hotel, you're in statistically the 2nd worst small city for crime in the country. What to see first? NBA G team the Canton Charge? The McKinley Presidential library? Arby's? With the 37° average December temps, I'm sure you'll need to beat away the throngs of locals with a stick should MHB play Berry in a Stagg Bowl. Enjoy your 14° temps and 0° wind chill to go along with your sunny disposition today...

BTW, I know nothing about Canton, but a quick Google search turned up the following results:
These Are The 10 Most Miserable Midwest Cities
These Are The 10 Most Ghetto Cities In Ohio
Canton ranked as one of the top 20 worst cities to live in
Canton named one of “Worst American Cities to Live In
These Are The 10 Most Dangerous Cities In Ohio For 2018

Thankfully, $700 Million should buy one helluva HOF Village – with prices to match.
  Lived near Houston and lived near Canton and I would take Canton 100 times out of 100 times.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on January 03, 2018, 05:39:28 pm
Maybe, most D3fb fans are more interested in the actual game and might check out the HOF and everything that Canton offers.  There's a "village" being built around the HOF, but I'm sure the Woodlands can compete.  The Woodland wont pay for busing for both teams but they will be a good host...ok.

I'm sure the suburbs of Houston are great, but I'm not moving there.  Most fans are there for 1-2 days, and there won't even be that many of them.   Enjoy your two years, it's not coming back
That's funny Merle, I'm hoping for nothing but success for the Stagg Bowl's future, while you seem to revel in the possibility of a disaster in Texas. I mean with decent weather virtually assured in the fourth largest Metropolitan area in the country, let's hope (well I'll hope and you can just gnash your teeth), for a couple of good years in Texas before 100,000 football-crazy MUC fans decent on beautiful Canton, Ohio.

As you pointed out, most people only come to the Stagg Bowl for 1-2 days, so outside the HOF and the game itself, they won't get to experience "Everything Canton Has To Offer". Once you venture outside the HOF Village and its four star ($$$$) NFL hotel, you're in statistically the 2nd worst small city for crime in the country. What to see first? NBA G team the Canton Charge? The McKinley Presidential library? Arby's? With the 37° average December temps, I'm sure you'll need to beat away the throngs of locals with a stick should MHB play Berry in a Stagg Bowl. Enjoy your 14° temps and 0° wind chill to go along with your sunny disposition today...

BTW, I know nothing about Canton, but a quick Google search turned up the following results:
These Are The 10 Most Miserable Midwest Cities
These Are The 10 Most Ghetto Cities In Ohio
Canton ranked as one of the top 20 worst cities to live in
Canton named one of “Worst American Cities to Live In
These Are The 10 Most Dangerous Cities In Ohio For 2018

Thankfully, $700 Million should buy one helluva HOF Village – with prices to match.
  Lived near Houston and lived near Canton and I would take Canton 100 times out of 100 times.

how dare you!
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: smedindy on January 03, 2018, 07:50:09 pm
I take a pass at both. Houston's too hot and humid and Canton reminds me of BFE Indiana (and I've been to Wooster and Alliance and Kent and Stow and Akron and Canton, so...yeah).
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: edward de vere on January 03, 2018, 11:41:14 pm
I wonder what the attendance #'s are for the 2017 TX HS semi's held on the same weekend of Stagg Bowl?  I'm sure all of those casual TX football fans would rather buy a ticket to see Mount vs Whitewater instead of watching the TX semi's on TV

Hmm.  You might have me on that one, if the games go head-to-head.

On the other hand, I find it really hard to believe that there isn't a single marketing whiz in the entire Houston metropolitan area.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 03, 2018, 11:47:25 pm
Marketing can only lead the horse to water. Making it drink is a different thing entirely.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: edward de vere on January 04, 2018, 12:46:02 am
A marketing whiz, by definition, induces the horse to drink.

Otherwise, the marketing whiz ain't a marketing whiz.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wally_wabash on January 04, 2018, 08:57:36 am
I disagree, based on: 1) Texas football insanity  2)  Good ol' southern hospitality  3)  The desire not to be embarrassed.  4) Extras, i.e. the D# recruitment idea that's been floated.  There are only about a million other possible enhancements.  All you need is one Bill Veeck.

I wonder what the attendance #'s are for the 2017 TX HS semi's held on the same weekend of Stagg Bowl?  I'm sure all of those casual TX football fans would rather buy a ticket to see Mount vs Whitewater instead of watching the TX semi's on TV

And I'm sure that you have grossly misunderstood an average Texan's appetite for high school football relative to a Division III game.  They would all rather watch the high school game. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: MUC57 on January 04, 2018, 10:54:13 am
Wally Wabash

I certainly understand your reasoning re Texas high school football. Alliance High School plays it's games in Mount Union Stadium. Pack the house every Friday night. Mount draws, typically, 1000-2000. This in a stadium that seats around 5500. People love their high school football. More people went to high school than went to college, so it makes sense.
Bottom line. We're "stuck" with Texas for 2 years. Let's give them a chance and hope everything works out OK!
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on January 04, 2018, 11:20:56 am
One thing to mention for the Texas high school semi-finals is they are all over the state of Texas, not in a single location and not televised to my knowledge. So while the Stagg Bowl will be competing potentially with a few games, it not against the championship games which are all in a single location which I am guessing will stay in Dallas for a while.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: joelmama on January 04, 2018, 11:29:44 am
I think the other thing that bears mentioning is that the HOF group will spend a lot of attention to promote this game.  That is a core part of their mission to promote their facilities especially to out of towners.  The events around the HOF game in August are well done and to a degree we will see some of that in Canton and I suspect (but do not know) that this effort will likely be more than we see from the Texas group which I doubt has the same level of professionalism because it is a just a different type of organization.  (Not meant to be a criticism of the people or organization just a recognition that it is a different organization type.)
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: AO on January 05, 2018, 09:49:23 am
Found video of the BBQ Bowl event that the FCS championship hosts for the players.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpiVRVcj7iY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpiVRVcj7iY)

If Shenandoah/Canton could provide similar entertainment for the players, that would be 100x more important to the athlete experience than whether they get 50 or 1,000 random people from the area to come to the game.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: hsbsballcoach7 on January 05, 2018, 10:00:53 am
Found view of the BBQ Bowl event that the FCS championship hosts for the players.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpiVRVcj7iY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpiVRVcj7iY)

If Shenandoah/Canton could provide similar entertainment for the players, that would be 100x more important to the athlete experience than whether they get 50 or 1,000 random people from the area to come to the game.

That’s awesome! This is definitely what makes these games special for the players in addition to playing in the championship game. I certainly hope Shenandoah and Canton can BOTH provide a great experience similar to this.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: desertraider on January 05, 2018, 04:34:14 pm
Found video of the BBQ Bowl event that the FCS championship hosts for the players.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpiVRVcj7iY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpiVRVcj7iY)

If Shenandoah/Canton could provide similar entertainment for the players, that would be 100x more important to the athlete experience than whether they get 50 or 1,000 random people from the area to come to the game.

I don't know about Shenandoah - does Texas have BBQ?  :o ;D :o
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on January 05, 2018, 05:52:33 pm
Found video of the BBQ Bowl event that the FCS championship hosts for the players.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpiVRVcj7iY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpiVRVcj7iY)

If Shenandoah/Canton could provide similar entertainment for the players, that would be 100x more important to the athlete experience than whether they get 50 or 1,000 random people from the area to come to the game.

I don't know about Shenandoah - does Texas have BBQ?  :o ;D :o
We Texans prefer BBQ Beef!  I understand that some parts of the country use other meats.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: phil on January 05, 2018, 07:43:57 pm
https://www.texasmonthly.com/s/the-golden-age-of-barbecue/

Top Ten list of BBQ joints in Texas. Corkscrew BBQ is in nearby Spring.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 05, 2018, 10:46:17 pm
All the plain white bread you can eat. ;D
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Bob.Gregg on January 06, 2018, 06:11:16 pm
A marketing whiz, by definition, induces the horse to drink.

Otherwise, the marketing whiz ain't a marketing whiz.
A REAL marketing whiz eliminates the thinking process.  SALT THE OATS.  Once the horse gets to water, drinking is automatic.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Warren Thompson on January 06, 2018, 07:03:23 pm
All the plain white bread you can eat. ;D
As a native of San Antonio and a lover of barbecue, I can't understand this love affair with "plain white bread." What's wrong with cornbread ... or even no bread?  :P
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: hsbsballcoach7 on January 06, 2018, 07:17:50 pm
All the plain white bread you can eat. ;D
As a native of San Antonio and a lover of barbecue, I can't understand this love affair with "plain white bread." What's wrong with cornbread ... or even no bread?  :P

My wife will begrudgingly tell you how much I love bbq, but I love mine with cornbread too. If it’s any other bread they better have good butter with it....preferably cinnamon butter!
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: edward de vere on January 06, 2018, 08:46:32 pm
If there's an eating contest between VK and The Fredster my money's on VK.

Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: smedindy on January 08, 2018, 04:40:55 pm
Marketing Cheez Whiz?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Toby Taff on January 15, 2018, 12:33:49 am
All the plain white bread you can eat. ;D
As a native of San Antonio and a lover of barbecue, I can't understand this love affair with "plain white bread." What's wrong with cornbread ... or even no bread?  :P
Most BBQ places serve corn cake not cornbread. There was a place in Abilene, Harold’s, that sold hot water cornbread that was amazing.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on January 17, 2018, 05:21:15 pm
not a lot of good things said about Salem from the Shenandoah rep, but it was cawld

https://youtu.be/s3uUv5Lfn0I?t=8m20s

8:20 to 16:50
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 17, 2018, 05:25:35 pm
Watching this now. Thanks for picking up on this.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on January 17, 2018, 09:05:26 pm
not a lot of good things said about Salem from the Shenandoah rep, but it was cawld

https://youtu.be/s3uUv5Lfn0I?t=8m20s

8:20 to 16:50
I thought that the woman who made the presentation was respectful of Salem, their accommodations and amenities provided. She mentioned that one hotel was a standard Sheraton property and the other was a classic local Salem hotel, beautifully decorated for Christmas. She acknowledged Salem's love of the Stagg and how they will miss it.

Yes she did mention that the weather was "cawld". (Of course this week, all of east Texas has been shut down by the Ice Storm and sub-freezing high temperatures during the last 2 days.)

I got the impression that she believes that Shenandoah, TX can put on a memorable Stagg Bowl.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on January 18, 2018, 12:30:48 pm
not a lot of good things said about Salem from the Shenandoah rep, but it was cawld

https://youtu.be/s3uUv5Lfn0I?t=8m20s

8:20 to 16:50
I thought that the woman who made the presentation was respectful of Salem, their accommodations and amenities provided. She mentioned that one hotel was a standard Sheraton property and the other was a classic local Salem hotel, beautifully decorated for Christmas. She acknowledged Salem's love of the Stagg and how they will miss it.

Yes she did mention that the weather was "cawld". (Of course this week, all of east Texas has been shut down by the Ice Storm and sub-freezing high temperatures during the last 2 days.)

I got the impression that she believes that Shenandoah, TX can put on a memorable Stagg Bowl.

I guess I took the following as backhanded at best: "here's Salem at night...the best time to see Salem", "here's their 50 year old stadium and...it's quite different from the one here", "the bottom picture on the right is the locker rooms..(gasp)...yes....", "this is a picture of their press box, and it was a cawld press box", "this is their 50 year old civic center and you can tell by the decorations", " the banquet was decorated with...uhm..christmas tinsel, tablecloths and nothing else"

"the UMHB stands were totally filled, they brought eight or 10 buses and 2 or 3 private planes"  .... ummmm
"we told UMHB that we expect them to be there.. next year, b/c that will bring a lot of people here"

Maybe I'm far too biased, but all of the UMHB references and calling Mount Union (21(?) time Stagg participant) the "other university" is a little odd when referencing the upcoming Stagg Bowls in 18 & 19.   It's probably a factor of one university "hosting" the game and not a conference, but strange non-the-less. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on January 18, 2018, 01:09:53 pm
not a lot of good things said about Salem from the Shenandoah rep, but it was cawld

https://youtu.be/s3uUv5Lfn0I?t=8m20s

8:20 to 16:50
I thought that the woman who made the presentation was respectful of Salem, their accommodations and amenities provided. She mentioned that one hotel was a standard Sheraton property and the other was a classic local Salem hotel, beautifully decorated for Christmas. She acknowledged Salem's love of the Stagg and how they will miss it.

Yes she did mention that the weather was "cawld". (Of course this week, all of east Texas has been shut down by the Ice Storm and sub-freezing high temperatures during the last 2 days.)

I got the impression that she believes that Shenandoah, TX can put on a memorable Stagg Bowl.

I guess I took the following as backhanded at best: "here's Salem at night...the best time to see Salem", "here's their 50 year old stadium and...it's quite different from the one here", "the bottom picture on the right is the locker rooms..(gasp)...yes....", "this is a picture of their press box, and it was a cawld press box", "this is their 50 year old civic center and you can tell by the decorations", " the banquet was decorated with...uhm..christmas tinsel, tablecloths and nothing else"

"the UMHB stands were totally filled, they brought eight or 10 buses and 2 or 3 private planes"  .... ummmm
"we told UMHB that we expect them to be there.. next year, b/c that will bring a lot of people here"

Maybe I'm far too biased, but all of the UMHB references and calling Mount Union (21(?) time Stagg participant) the "other university" is a little odd when referencing the upcoming Stagg Bowls in 18 & 19.   It's probably a factor of one university "hosting" the game and not a conference, but strange non-the-less.

I won't defend the statements she made, no it wasn't a glowing review but she mixed in both subtle good and bad comments about Salem. But her job wasn't to give props to Salem, I assume it was to provide a review of what was the current expectations of the Stagg Bowl. I would have hoped that people would be a little happy that Shenandoah feels like they can at least match the quality of experience that Salem produced.

And yes she was inaccurate in her assessment of the the amount of fans UMHB brought but that won't really matter next year even if UMHB is in the Stagg Bowl.

And when it comes to her repeated UMHB references...UMHB is co-hosting the event for the next 2 years and she came essentially as a guest to every team event so of course she is going to mention that.There is also no need to mention Mount Union by name because it doesn't matter in that conversation, the game could have featured any 2 teams and she and a number of UMHB individuals would have been in Salem making the same notes either way.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on January 18, 2018, 01:29:46 pm
not a lot of good things said about Salem from the Shenandoah rep, but it was cawld

https://youtu.be/s3uUv5Lfn0I?t=8m20s

8:20 to 16:50
I thought that the woman who made the presentation was respectful of Salem, their accommodations and amenities provided. She mentioned that one hotel was a standard Sheraton property and the other was a classic local Salem hotel, beautifully decorated for Christmas. She acknowledged Salem's love of the Stagg and how they will miss it.

Yes she did mention that the weather was "cawld". (Of course this week, all of east Texas has been shut down by the Ice Storm and sub-freezing high temperatures during the last 2 days.)

I got the impression that she believes that Shenandoah, TX can put on a memorable Stagg Bowl.

I guess I took the following as backhanded at best: "here's Salem at night...the best time to see Salem", "here's their 50 year old stadium and...it's quite different from the one here", "the bottom picture on the right is the locker rooms..(gasp)...yes....", "this is a picture of their press box, and it was a cawld press box", "this is their 50 year old civic center and you can tell by the decorations", " the banquet was decorated with...uhm..christmas tinsel, tablecloths and nothing else"

"the UMHB stands were totally filled, they brought eight or 10 buses and 2 or 3 private planes"  .... ummmm
"we told UMHB that we expect them to be there.. next year, b/c that will bring a lot of people here"

Maybe I'm far too biased, but all of the UMHB references and calling Mount Union (21(?) time Stagg participant) the "other university" is a little odd when referencing the upcoming Stagg Bowls in 18 & 19.   It's probably a factor of one university "hosting" the game and not a conference, but strange non-the-less.

I won't defend the statements she made, no it wasn't a glowing review but she mixed in both subtle good and bad comments about Salem. But her job wasn't to give props to Salem, I assume it was to provide a review of what was the current expectations of the Stagg Bowl. I would have hoped that people would be a little happy that Shenandoah feels like they can at least match the quality of experience that Salem produced.

And yes she was inaccurate in her assessment of the the amount of fans UMHB brought but that won't really matter next year even if UMHB is in the Stagg Bowl.

And when it comes to her repeated UMHB references...UMHB is co-hosting the event for the next 2 years and she came essentially as a guest to every team event so of course she is going to mention that.There is also no need to mention Mount Union by name because it doesn't matter in that conversation, the game could have featured any 2 teams and she and a number of UMHB individuals would have been in Salem making the same notes either way.

I get it.  I think its odd that UMHB is hosting and not the ASC, but that is what it is.  But if I was in her shoes, I would have picked the brain of "the other university" that has been in the game almost yearly.

I just thought that her presentation lacked couth, maybe she didn't know there was a camera in the back of the room.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wally_wabash on January 18, 2018, 02:02:04 pm
Whatever point you're trying to make gets lost as soon as you start making fun of somebody's accent.  Not that this is inconsistent with your style, but dude seriously, really poor taste. 

Camera or no camera, audio stream or no, I don't think it matters what she said in that meeting.  Your mind has already been made up about Shenandoah Stagg Bowls. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: AO on January 18, 2018, 02:21:10 pm
Wouldn't the city rather have teams from outside the area make it to the Stagg bowl?  The MHB crowd is more likely to just go to the game and not eat/stay/shop in town.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on January 18, 2018, 02:22:34 pm
Whatever point you're trying to make gets lost as soon as you start making fun of somebody's accent.  Not that this is inconsistent with your style, but dude seriously, really poor taste. 

Camera or no camera, audio stream or no, I don't think it matters what she said in that meeting.  Your mind has already been made up about Shenandoah Stagg Bowls.

lighten up Francis. 

we all have accents. just relax.  give me a deep breath in for eight and hold, and then out with eight.  Feel better?

I believe Texas Stagg Bowls will be a disappointment, but that's my opinion. I have made my reasons very clear, why do you think it will be so successful?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wally_wabash on January 18, 2018, 02:34:49 pm
Whatever point you're trying to make gets lost as soon as you start making fun of somebody's accent.  Not that this is inconsistent with your style, but dude seriously, really poor taste. 

Camera or no camera, audio stream or no, I don't think it matters what she said in that meeting.  Your mind has already been made up about Shenandoah Stagg Bowls.

lighten up Francis. 

we all have accents. just relax.  give me a deep breath in for eight and hold, and then out with eight.  Feel better?

I believe Texas Stagg Bowls will be a disappointment, but that's my opinion. I have made my reasons very clear, why do you think it will be so successful?

I'm fairly certain that this has never been my position.  I don't really know what to expect, but I'm willing to keep an open mind about it at least.  And show a modicum of respect to the event organizers. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on January 18, 2018, 02:38:09 pm
Whatever point you're trying to make gets lost as soon as you start making fun of somebody's accent.  Not that this is inconsistent with your style, but dude seriously, really poor taste. 

Camera or no camera, audio stream or no, I don't think it matters what she said in that meeting.  Your mind has already been made up about Shenandoah Stagg Bowls.

lighten up Francis. 

we all have accents. just relax.  give me a deep breath in for eight and hold, and then out with eight.  Feel better?

I believe Texas Stagg Bowls will be a disappointment, but that's my opinion. I have made my reasons very clear, why do you think it will be so successful?

I'm fairly certain that this has never been my position.  I don't really know what to expect, but I'm willing to keep an open mind about it at least.  And show a modicum of respect to the event organizers.

I think I gave the same amount of (if not more) respect towards the delightful, wonderful, and amazing TX lady than she gave towards the 25 year home of D3's biggest game
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on January 18, 2018, 03:30:21 pm
not a lot of good things said about Salem from the Shenandoah rep, but it was cawld

https://youtu.be/s3uUv5Lfn0I?t=8m20s

8:20 to 16:50
I thought that the woman who made the presentation was respectful of Salem, their accommodations and amenities provided. She mentioned that one hotel was a standard Sheraton property and the other was a classic local Salem hotel, beautifully decorated for Christmas. She acknowledged Salem's love of the Stagg and how they will miss it.

Yes she did mention that the weather was "cawld". (Of course this week, all of east Texas has been shut down by the Ice Storm and sub-freezing high temperatures during the last 2 days.)

I got the impression that she believes that Shenandoah, TX can put on a memorable Stagg Bowl.

I guess I took the following as backhanded at best: "here's Salem at night...the best time to see Salem", "here's their 50 year old stadium and...it's quite different from the one here", "the bottom picture on the right is the locker rooms..(gasp)...yes....", "this is a picture of their press box, and it was a cawld press box", "this is their 50 year old civic center and you can tell by the decorations", " the banquet was decorated with...uhm..christmas tinsel, tablecloths and nothing else"

"the UMHB stands were totally filled, they brought eight or 10 buses and 2 or 3 private planes"  .... ummmm
"we told UMHB that we expect them to be there.. next year, b/c that will bring a lot of people here"

Maybe I'm far too biased, but all of the UMHB references and calling Mount Union (21(?) time Stagg participant) the "other university" is a little odd when referencing the upcoming Stagg Bowls in 18 & 19.   It's probably a factor of one university "hosting" the game and not a conference, but strange non-the-less.

I won't defend the statements she made, no it wasn't a glowing review but she mixed in both subtle good and bad comments about Salem. But her job wasn't to give props to Salem, I assume it was to provide a review of what was the current expectations of the Stagg Bowl. I would have hoped that people would be a little happy that Shenandoah feels like they can at least match the quality of experience that Salem produced.

And yes she was inaccurate in her assessment of the the amount of fans UMHB brought but that won't really matter next year even if UMHB is in the Stagg Bowl.

And when it comes to her repeated UMHB references...UMHB is co-hosting the event for the next 2 years and she came essentially as a guest to every team event so of course she is going to mention that.There is also no need to mention Mount Union by name because it doesn't matter in that conversation, the game could have featured any 2 teams and she and a number of UMHB individuals would have been in Salem making the same notes either way.

I get it.  I think its odd that UMHB is hosting and not the ASC, but that is what it is.  But if I was in her shoes, I would have picked the brain of "the other university" that has been in the game almost yearly.

I just thought that her presentation lacked couth, maybe she didn't know there was a camera in the back of the room.

Why would you need to pick the brain of a group that has not and will not be hosting the event and might not even be at the event. From her speech it sounds like Salem, while sad to lose the event, was very gracious to her and provided some insight into host duties, something Mount Union, a frequent guest, has no knowledge of.

We all get it that you think this is going to be a failure, but even if we think you are right that she belittled the event, she would only do that if she thought that they could do BETTER.
 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on January 18, 2018, 03:48:36 pm
not a lot of good things said about Salem from the Shenandoah rep, but it was cawld

https://youtu.be/s3uUv5Lfn0I?t=8m20s

8:20 to 16:50
I thought that the woman who made the presentation was respectful of Salem, their accommodations and amenities provided. She mentioned that one hotel was a standard Sheraton property and the other was a classic local Salem hotel, beautifully decorated for Christmas. She acknowledged Salem's love of the Stagg and how they will miss it.

Yes she did mention that the weather was "cawld". (Of course this week, all of east Texas has been shut down by the Ice Storm and sub-freezing high temperatures during the last 2 days.)

I got the impression that she believes that Shenandoah, TX can put on a memorable Stagg Bowl.

I guess I took the following as backhanded at best: "here's Salem at night...the best time to see Salem", "here's their 50 year old stadium and...it's quite different from the one here", "the bottom picture on the right is the locker rooms..(gasp)...yes....", "this is a picture of their press box, and it was a cawld press box", "this is their 50 year old civic center and you can tell by the decorations", " the banquet was decorated with...uhm..christmas tinsel, tablecloths and nothing else"

"the UMHB stands were totally filled, they brought eight or 10 buses and 2 or 3 private planes"  .... ummmm
"we told UMHB that we expect them to be there.. next year, b/c that will bring a lot of people here"

Maybe I'm far too biased, but all of the UMHB references and calling Mount Union (21(?) time Stagg participant) the "other university" is a little odd when referencing the upcoming Stagg Bowls in 18 & 19.   It's probably a factor of one university "hosting" the game and not a conference, but strange non-the-less.

I won't defend the statements she made, no it wasn't a glowing review but she mixed in both subtle good and bad comments about Salem. But her job wasn't to give props to Salem, I assume it was to provide a review of what was the current expectations of the Stagg Bowl. I would have hoped that people would be a little happy that Shenandoah feels like they can at least match the quality of experience that Salem produced.

And yes she was inaccurate in her assessment of the the amount of fans UMHB brought but that won't really matter next year even if UMHB is in the Stagg Bowl.

And when it comes to her repeated UMHB references...UMHB is co-hosting the event for the next 2 years and she came essentially as a guest to every team event so of course she is going to mention that.There is also no need to mention Mount Union by name because it doesn't matter in that conversation, the game could have featured any 2 teams and she and a number of UMHB individuals would have been in Salem making the same notes either way.

I get it.  I think its odd that UMHB is hosting and not the ASC, but that is what it is.  But if I was in her shoes, I would have picked the brain of "the other university" that has been in the game almost yearly.

I just thought that her presentation lacked couth, maybe she didn't know there was a camera in the back of the room.

Why would you need to pick the brain of a group that has not and will not be hosting the event and might not even be at the event. From her speech it sounds like Salem, while sad to lose the event, was very gracious to her and provided some insight into host duties, something Mount Union, a frequent guest, has no knowledge of.

We all get it that you think this is going to be a failure, but even if we think you are right that she belittled the event, she would only do that if she thought that they could do BETTER.

because you're there for a week?  Why not talk to the admin from the school that is statistically likely going to be in your two Stagg Bowls?  See what they like, dont like, what went well and what could be better?  I hope that Shenandoah does better than Salem , I really do.  I don't want D3 to look like bad HS football on national TV with nobody in the stands.  It's bad for the brand. 

Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wally_wabash on January 18, 2018, 04:00:04 pm
I hope that Shenandoah does better than Salem , I really do.  I don't want D3 to look like bad HS football on national TV with nobody in the stands. It's bad for the brand.

Then shut up, buy a ticket, and support the event. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on January 18, 2018, 04:13:31 pm
It's not about what Mount Union wants/likes/dislikes, they talked to the people that hosted the event for 25 years and apparently are going to continue those discussions.

And since you mention empty stands, how do you think that is going to play in Canton with a capacity of 23,000? That means there would have been 15,000 empty seats at the highest attended Stagg Bowl at Salem.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on January 18, 2018, 04:35:59 pm
I hope that Shenandoah does better than Salem , I really do.  I don't want D3 to look like bad HS football on national TV with nobody in the stands. It's bad for the brand.

Then shut up, buy a ticket, and support the event.

ummm, I have been to nearly every Stagg Bowl since 2003.  Can you say the same?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on January 18, 2018, 04:46:02 pm
It's not about what Mount Union wants/likes/dislikes, they talked to the people that hosted the event for 25 years and apparently are going to continue those discussions.

And since you mention empty stands, how do you think that is going to play in Canton with a capacity of 23,000? That means there would have been 15,000 empty seats at the highest attended Stagg Bowl at Salem.

Obviously, Canton, OH is much more of a central location of D3FB than Salem or the island of TX.  There are maps that have been created saying Columbus, OH is the midpoint.  Columbus is less than 150 miles or  hours from Canton.  That alone should increase attendance. 

UWW vs StT or Brockport vs Wheaton in the Stagg Bowl in Canton would outdraw the same matchup in VA or TX, at least that would make sense.

Tom Benson is a big stadium, and I agree.  But driving past it daily, they have tarped off sections of the upper deck.  I'm sure the NCAA will love the ability to have massive tarps with sponsor's logos.  It will not be a 23,000 seat stadium for the Stagg Bowl, or almost any other event there.

I'd love a MUC-UMHB in 2018 and 2020 and compare the attendance.   
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on January 18, 2018, 05:42:48 pm
It's not about what Mount Union wants/likes/dislikes, they talked to the people that hosted the event for 25 years and apparently are going to continue those discussions.

And since you mention empty stands, how do you think that is going to play in Canton with a capacity of 23,000? That means there would have been 15,000 empty seats at the highest attended Stagg Bowl at Salem.

Obviously, Canton, OH is much more of a central location of D3FB than Salem or the island of TX.  There are maps that have been created saying Columbus, OH is the midpoint.  Columbus is less than 150 miles or  hours from Canton.  That alone should increase attendance. 

UWW vs StT or Brockport vs Wheaton in the Stagg Bowl in Canton would outdraw the same matchup in VA or TX, at least that would make sense.

Tom Benson is a big stadium, and I agree.  But driving past it daily, they have tarped off sections of the upper deck.  I'm sure the NCAA will love the ability to have massive tarps with sponsor's logos.  It will not be a 23,000 seat stadium for the Stagg Bowl, or almost any other event there.

I'd love a MUC-UMHB in 2018 and 2020 and compare the attendance.

I have no doubt that Canton will out draw Texas but Shenandoah has a capacity of 9,600 so even if it only draws few thousand it will look more full than a huge D3 crowd would look in Canton.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: smedindy on January 18, 2018, 07:58:51 pm
There are D-1 schools that have embarrassing empty seats:

(https://supertailgate.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/FAU1-e1481906846544.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOpbcH1X0AEuhfC.jpg)
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: MiacMan on January 19, 2018, 11:01:55 am
From a totally personal and selfish standpoint, I welcome the Stagg Bowl to Texas for none other than the warm weather. The two Salem Staggs that I have attended may have been the coldest I have ever been in my entire life and I am a 50+ year old Minnesota deer hunter. I hope my team makes it to one of the Texas Staggs. I will probably make it a week long vacation. However, I would also like to go to Canton because I have never seen the Pro Football HOF or the Rock-n-Roll HOF. Anyway, IMO, two great choices for Stagg for totally different reasons. I will not underestimate the weather in Canton as I did in Salem, if I am lucky enough to make the trip.  :D
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on January 19, 2018, 11:55:51 pm
From a totally personal and selfish standpoint, I welcome the Stagg Bowl to Texas for none other than the warm weather. The two Salem Staggs that I have attended may have been the coldest I have ever been in my entire life and I am a 50+ year old Minnesota deer hunter. I hope my team makes it to one of the Texas Staggs. I will probably make it a week long vacation. However, I would also like to go to Canton because I have never seen the Pro Football HOF or the Rock-n-Roll HOF. Anyway, IMO, two great choices for Stagg for totally different reasons. I will not underestimate the weather in Canton as I did in Salem, if I am lucky enough to make the trip.  :D
Bring your golf clubs.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on January 21, 2018, 12:06:44 pm
There are D-1 schools that have embarrassing empty seats:

(https://supertailgate.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/FAU1-e1481906846544.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DOpbcH1X0AEuhfC.jpg)

D-1 also has more than one game a year on "national television".  Nobody give a rip about Kent St vs Buffalo, or the Locite SuperGlue Bowl in mid-week early December.  This is D3's chance to shine and not be "glorified high school football".  I want two top notch teams, a bunch of fans and an atmosphere that is befitting of a National Championship.  But if it looks like garbage on TV and there are no fans, maybe instead of MACtion on Tuesday or Wednesdays, we can have D3dication or D3termination for a Tuesday night Stagg Bowl.  But at least it should be warmer

There are all kinds of embarrassing things in D1 that I hope never make it to D3.  I wonder if some of the lesser FBS bowl games have city councils that complain over having to pay to bus the teams around...
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: ADL70 on January 21, 2018, 01:21:42 pm
As you referenced with "Loctite" those minor bowls have corporate $
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: phil on January 21, 2018, 02:08:57 pm
Merle, keep watching those Shenandoah council meetings and report back to us regarding how southerners pronounce certain words and your own perceived slights to the DIII football world. You're the posting equivalent to one fan in a 23,000 seat stadium.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Warren Thompson on January 21, 2018, 05:44:03 pm
Merle,...report back to us regarding how southerners pronounce certain words ....

Phil: be careful. Texans don't always cotton to being called "southerners." Texans are Texans, a breed apart. Alabamians, Mississippians, Georgians et al are 'southerners."  Keep in mind, for example, that a Texan living in Odessa has virtually nothing in common with, say, a Kentuckian, except maybe a liking for KFC .  :)  ;)
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: phil on January 21, 2018, 07:30:15 pm
Warren, I do declare, I stand corrected! Bless your heart!  ;D
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Knightstalker on January 21, 2018, 10:22:06 pm
Merle,...report back to us regarding how southerners pronounce certain words ....

Phil: be careful. Texans don't always cotton to being called "southerners." Texans are Texans, a breed apart. Alabamians, Mississippians, Georgians et al are 'southerners."  Keep in mind, for example, that a Texan living in Odessa has virtually nothing in common with, say, a Kentuckian, except maybe a liking for KFC .  :)  ;)

I can vouch for what Warren is saying.  When I was in the Navy and we would pull into a foreign port people would ask where we were from.  Most of us answered either America or the US, the Texans would all drawl I'm from Texas.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: smedindy on January 21, 2018, 10:39:10 pm

D-1 also has more than one game a year on "national television".  Nobody give a rip about Kent St vs Buffalo, or the Locite SuperGlue Bowl in mid-week early December.  This is D3's chance to shine and not be "glorified high school football".  I want two top notch teams, a bunch of fans and an atmosphere that is befitting of a National Championship.  But if it looks like garbage on TV and there are no fans, maybe instead of MACtion on Tuesday or Wednesdays, we can have D3dication or D3termination for a Tuesday night Stagg Bowl.  But at least it should be warmer

There are all kinds of embarrassing things in D1 that I hope never make it to D3.  I wonder if some of the lesser FBS bowl games have city councils that complain over having to pay to bus the teams around...

Well, I do love me some MACtion. And I do know that alumni at Kent St. and Buffalo do care (at least some of them), and the players and families and coaches care. Also, the ratings for the minor bowls on ESPN are enough that ESPN will continue to own and televise most all of them.

Any game can be exciting with good to great plays - and any game can be hot garbage.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on January 22, 2018, 12:05:27 pm

D-1 also has more than one game a year on "national television".  Nobody give a rip about Kent St vs Buffalo, or the Locite SuperGlue Bowl in mid-week early December.  This is D3's chance to shine and not be "glorified high school football".  I want two top notch teams, a bunch of fans and an atmosphere that is befitting of a National Championship.  But if it looks like garbage on TV and there are no fans, maybe instead of MACtion on Tuesday or Wednesdays, we can have D3dication or D3termination for a Tuesday night Stagg Bowl.  But at least it should be warmer

There are all kinds of embarrassing things in D1 that I hope never make it to D3.  I wonder if some of the lesser FBS bowl games have city councils that complain over having to pay to bus the teams around...

Well, I do love me some MACtion. And I do know that alumni at Kent St. and Buffalo do care (at least some of them), and the players and families and coaches care. Also, the ratings for the minor bowls on ESPN are enough that ESPN will continue to own and televise most all of them.

Any game can be exciting with good to great plays - and any game can be hot garbage.

Alumni at Kent State care?  yeah ok. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on January 22, 2018, 12:10:32 pm
Merle, keep watching those Shenandoah council meetings and report back to us regarding how southerners pronounce certain words and your own perceived slights to the DIII football world. You're the posting equivalent to one fan in a 23,000 seat stadium.

I heard that the city council meeting discussed the Stagg Bowl, is that not relative?

The TX lady bitched about the cold numerous times, I'm sorry if I hurt your precious feeling about the way she spoke.  If you want, we can hold hands and talk about our feelings together at the next Stagg Bowl.  You are special and people love you.  I am really sorry if your precious feelings were hurt.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: AO on January 22, 2018, 12:11:40 pm
A crowd of 5-10 thousand is never going to convince the average football fan that the Stagg isn't "glorified high school football".      You can make the atmosphere better by picking stadiums with less room between the sideline and stands.  The Hall of Fame stadium is going to be a major upgrade in this regard over Salem Stadium.  Woodforest Bank stadium is somewhere between those two.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on January 22, 2018, 12:17:37 pm
A crowd of 5-10 thousand is never going to convince the average football fan that the Stagg isn't "glorified high school football".      You can make the atmosphere better by picking stadiums with less room between the sideline and stands.  The Hall of Fame stadium is going to be a major upgrade in this regard over Salem Stadium.  Woodforest Bank stadium is somewhere between those two.

10k in Salem Stadium would have looked great on the wide shot on ESPNU.  Did you hear that the UMHB side was "filled up" at this last Stagg Bowl?

2-3k in Texas is going to look terrible

I'm sure that Shenandoah will be giving tickets away to get a reasonable amount of physical "fans" there
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 22, 2018, 12:22:41 pm
A crowd of 5-10 thousand is never going to convince the average football fan that the Stagg isn't "glorified high school football".      You can make the atmosphere better by picking stadiums with less room between the sideline and stands.  The Hall of Fame stadium is going to be a major upgrade in this regard over Salem Stadium. 

This isn't close enough? It's not like there's a track around the field. I thought this was pretty good in that regard.

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/p/AF1QipPORtN0QyhvxU--C7DsY4yEhc72868rjW3zl3BH)
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on January 22, 2018, 12:36:32 pm
https://youtu.be/XOX1Tm5qpNQ

absolutely disgusting how much room on the sidelines....makes me sick
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: AO on January 22, 2018, 01:23:53 pm
A crowd of 5-10 thousand is never going to convince the average football fan that the Stagg isn't "glorified high school football".      You can make the atmosphere better by picking stadiums with less room between the sideline and stands.  The Hall of Fame stadium is going to be a major upgrade in this regard over Salem Stadium. 

This isn't close enough? It's not like there's a track around the field. I thought this was pretty good in that regard.

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/p/AF1QipPORtN0QyhvxU--C7DsY4yEhc72868rjW3zl3BH)
Yeah, I'd say it's close enough.  Would be nice if they could have set up some bleachers at the white dotted line behind the end zone.  Just pointing out one of the advantages of the Hall of Fame stadium. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on January 22, 2018, 01:38:48 pm
A crowd of 5-10 thousand is never going to convince the average football fan that the Stagg isn't "glorified high school football".      You can make the atmosphere better by picking stadiums with less room between the sideline and stands.  The Hall of Fame stadium is going to be a major upgrade in this regard over Salem Stadium. 

This isn't close enough? It's not like there's a track around the field. I thought this was pretty good in that regard.

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/p/AF1QipPORtN0QyhvxU--C7DsY4yEhc72868rjW3zl3BH)
Yeah, I'd say it's close enough.  Would be nice if they could have set up some bleachers at the white dotted line behind the end zone.  Just pointing out one of the advantages of the Hall of Fame stadium.

Salem is flying distance from a bunch of D3FB.  Why would they put up bleacher seats?  Salem could only fill up the stands when UMHB is in town*  The rest of D3 travels like garbage
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: AO on January 22, 2018, 01:45:23 pm
Salem is flying distance from a bunch of D3FB.  Why would they put up bleacher seats?  Salem could only fill up the stands when UMHB is in town*  The rest of D3 travels like garbage
If the goal is to improve atmosphere and the experience of the players and fans I'd want to put the rowdiest fans as close as possible to the field.  When somebody scores a touchdown wouldn't it be great if the student section was right there to celebrate with the players?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on January 22, 2018, 01:55:39 pm
Salem is flying distance from a bunch of D3FB.  Why would they put up bleacher seats?  Salem could only fill up the stands when UMHB is in town*  The rest of D3 travels like garbage
If the goal is to improve atmosphere and the experience of the players and fans I'd want to put the rowdiest fans as close as possible to the field.  When somebody scores a touchdown wouldn't it be great if the student section was right there to celebrate with the players?

My goal would be to make it the easiest for fans to attend the game.  I'd worry about the fans positioning in the stands later. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on January 22, 2018, 03:29:21 pm
The area behind the dotted line is used for the jumbotron truck and such. Put bleachers in there and the truck can't maneuver very well. Furthermore, the bleachers have direct access to the field without many ways to hold people back. I bet many would consider that a security issue - also can't really get to that section of the field without getting to it from field level.

Also, the student-bodies are right behind their benches in Salem. It is plenty loud at field level.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: AO on January 22, 2018, 04:40:18 pm
The area behind the dotted line is used for the jumbotron truck and such. Put bleachers in there and the truck can't maneuver very well. Furthermore, the bleachers have direct access to the field without many ways to hold people back. I bet many would consider that a security issue - also can't really get to that section of the field without getting to it from field level.

Also, the student-bodies are right behind their benches in Salem. It is plenty loud at field level.
Where do you even go to rent a jumbotron?  That's got to be a pretty unique rental place.  And I'm absolutely arguing for sacrificing a bit of "security" to increase atmosphere.  I trust D3 fans to not disrupt the game. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Warren Thompson on January 22, 2018, 05:49:19 pm
Merle, keep watching those Shenandoah council meetings and report back to us regarding how southerners pronounce certain words and your own perceived slights to the DIII football world. You're the posting equivalent to one fan in a 23,000 seat stadium.
The TX lady bitched about the cold numerous times, I'm sorry if I hurt your precious feeling about the way she spoke.  If you want, we can hold hands and talk about our feelings together at the next Stagg Bowl.  You are special and people love you.  I am really sorry if your precious feelings were hurt.

Are you quite certain you want to go down the road of snarky with Phil? Just asking.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Knightstalker on January 22, 2018, 06:30:28 pm
Merle, keep watching those Shenandoah council meetings and report back to us regarding how southerners pronounce certain words and your own perceived slights to the DIII football world. You're the posting equivalent to one fan in a 23,000 seat stadium.
The TX lady bitched about the cold numerous times, I'm sorry if I hurt your precious feeling about the way she spoke.  If you want, we can hold hands and talk about our feelings together at the next Stagg Bowl.  You are special and people love you.  I am really sorry if your precious feelings were hurt.

Are you quite certain you want to go down the road of snarky with Phil? Just asking.

Warren has a point here.  Phil is from Jersey, we invented snarky attitudes in NJ.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Warren Thompson on January 22, 2018, 07:09:05 pm
.
Warren has a point here.  Phil is from Jersey, we invented snarky attitudes in NJ.

Indeed. They're often envied, but seldom equaled.  :P
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: phil on January 22, 2018, 09:36:09 pm
Awwwww, shucks....  :-*

I had an old college friend call while I was picking up my daughter from Crossfit. My friend's from Little Ferry, NJ and still has the Joisey accent of legend. My daughter sat in awe as she schooled her on how to properly pronounce "watah", "cawfee", etc. I never had the over the top Jersey accent, but with all the softball tourneys my daughter plays, she constantly gets told that she pronounces "tournament" wrong. Texas = turn•a•mint. Jersey = tor•na•ment

Merle = condescending
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: MiacMan on January 23, 2018, 09:47:00 am
Does anyone have a link to the venue in Shenandoah? Canton looks fabulous!
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on January 23, 2018, 10:34:01 am
Does anyone have a link to the venue in Shenandoah? Canton looks fabulous!

http://www.texasbob.com/stadium/stadium.php?id=1151

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodforest_Bank_Stadium

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyBn5a1IuVQ
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: HScoach on January 23, 2018, 10:52:49 am
Awwwww, shucks....  :-*

I had an old college friend call while I was picking up my daughter from Crossfit. My friend's from Little Ferry, NJ and still has the Joisey accent of legend. My daughter sat in awe as she schooled her on how to properly pronounce "watah", "cawfee", etc. I never had the over the top Jersey accent, but with all the softball tourneys my daughter plays, she constantly gets told that she pronounces "tournament" wrong. Texas = turn•a•mint. Jersey = tor•na•ment

Merle = condescending

You're being more polite than he deserves.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: MUC57 on January 23, 2018, 11:01:19 am

K & J's Dad

Thanks for the links to Shenandoah. Looks like a really nice stadium. Other than the fact that it's quite a distance away, it should work out well. Just hope Mount will get there. (I think they will)!
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: MiacMan on January 23, 2018, 12:01:44 pm
Does anyone have a link to the venue in Shenandoah? Canton looks fabulous!

http://www.texasbob.com/stadium/stadium.php?id=1151

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodforest_Bank_Stadium

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyBn5a1IuVQ

Looks fine to me. Appears to be very similar to Salem Stadium. Hopefully without the bitter damp cold! Thank you K & J!
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: merlecanlas on January 23, 2018, 01:56:13 pm
Awwwww, shucks....  :-*

I had an old college friend call while I was picking up my daughter from Crossfit. My friend's from Little Ferry, NJ and still has the Joisey accent of legend. My daughter sat in awe as she schooled her on how to properly pronounce "watah", "cawfee", etc. I never had the over the top Jersey accent, but with all the softball tourneys my daughter plays, she constantly gets told that she pronounces "tournament" wrong. Texas = turn•a•mint. Jersey = tor•na•ment

Merle = condescending

You're being more polite than he deserves.

and I thought we were best of friends
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: smedindy on January 24, 2018, 07:37:24 pm
I think Wabash and others have traveled well. Ask the Whitewater folks how many Wabash fans went to Whitewater IN THE MIDDLE OF A FLIPPIN' BLIZZARD!

Also, I was in Alliance the first time Wabash played Mt. Union - there was shock and awe when we arrived and we stayed until the end. In the NCAC, sometimes we outdraw the host (Ok, like Hiram and Kenyon, but still...)

Give alums a reason to travel and some lead time (or no more than a 24-hour drive with an RV full of fans), we'll be there.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: edward de vere on January 24, 2018, 09:42:13 pm
Give alums a reason to travel and some lead time (or no more than a 24-hour drive with an RV full of fans), we'll be there.

Well then, that certainly explains Eddie Murphy's quote about all-male schools in "48 Hrs."
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: phil on October 30, 2018, 01:19:57 pm
Well, I tried to be optimistic about the Stagg Bowl considering the stadium is minutes away for me, but clearly the city of Shenandoah, TX was in over their heads when they made this bid, and the new administration which took office with little knowledge of what had taken place with the NCAA bid, seem to want nothing to do with it or its associated responsibilities. Considering we're a little more than a month away, the Stagg Bowl is a secret in these parts, and the biggest PR I could find regarding the event, sadly was this: https://www.chron.com/neighborhood/woodlands/news/article/Shenandoah-caught-off-guard-by-unknown-Stagg-Bowl-12834470.php

The City of Shenandoah (which is known to us folks who live here in The Woodlands as not much more than a speed trap), projected costs for the event to be $170k with revenue at roughly $220k. But of course, when you enter into a "No Cost Bid" with the NCAA, that means you're on the hook for whatever is above and beyond your estimate – which in this case is an additional $80k – which means the City of Shenandoah would already losing money on the Stagg Bowl. The board voted down these additional costs – which included $15k for collegiate goalposts.

This was back in April, and additional information (just like the game itself), has been really difficult to find – and that includes looking through the Shenandoah Board meeting minutes. I'm sure they were able to work something out with the NCAA, but suffice to say, nobody on the Shenandoah Board has embraced this event:
"8. Discussion and possible action to approve increased funding for the 2018 Stagg Bowl budget. COUNCILMEMBER RAYMAKER MADE A MOTION TO DENY ADDITIONAL FUNDING FOR
THE 2018 STAGG BOWL BUDGET, COUNCILMEMBER BRADT SECONDED.
AFTER SOME DISCUSSION, COUNCILMEMBER RAYMAKER MADE AN AMENDED MOTION
TO TABLE INCREASED FUNDING FOR THE 2018 STAGG BOWL BUDGET, COUNCILMEMBER BRADT SECONDED. THE MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY."

I hope for big crowds, good weather, and great football – but I think Shenandoah's Board feel like they're stuck with the Stagg Bowl and will do whatever they can to save money on an event they didn't want in the first place.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: jknezek on October 30, 2018, 01:29:04 pm
They've got to be praying, if they care at all which it doesn't seem like they do, that UMHB makes it.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: GillCJ1 on October 30, 2018, 02:07:00 pm
This situation really bums me out.  I hate it for the players and the fans, too.  I plan on attending (regardless if UMHB makes it or not) since I live within driving distance, but I'd be much more excited if Shenandoah was committed to the event.

Here's hoping we still get a great game on the field, if nothing else.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: AO on October 30, 2018, 03:05:49 pm
I do see the full $250k under the Shenandoah adopted budget here:
https://www.egovlink.com/public_documents300/shenandoah/published_documents/Finance/Budget/2018%20-%202019/2018%20-%202019%20ADOPTED%20BUDGET.pdf

Championship banquet catering  15,000
Field painting and cleaning  29,000
Game truck  2,000
Ground transportation 6,000
Hospitality 2,000
Hotel decorations 1,500
Misc.  71,900
Network hardware/infrastructure  10,000
Photographer 600
Pole banners 3,000
Police  5,000
Promo items  20,000
Restroom trailer 500
Stadium signage  3,000
Tailgate  36,500
Videographer  9,000
Woodforest Stadium buyout 35,000
Total Stagg Bowl 250,000

compared to Salem's 2017 budget for Football, Basketball and D2 Softball that totaled $373k
NCAA Championships - 10-053-9108
53150 Legal Services 630 - - -
53199 Other Professional Services 33,363
53200 Temporary Services 24,603
53330 Maintenance Of Auto Equipment 136 - - -
53500 Printing And Binding 8,705
53600 Advertising 46,973
55210 Postage 1,387
55230 Telephone Service 2,280
55410 Lease/Rent Of Equipment 24,337
55520 Airfare 15,581
55530 Meals And Lodging 72,145
55531 Meals And Lodging-NCAA - - 5,000
56002 Food Supplies And Food Service 85,990
56015 Other Operating Supplies 57,303
Total NCAA Championships 373,433

Salem also listed this revenue from the 2017 championships they hosted
NCAA Tickets    $89,992.00
NCAA Sponsporship    $46,880.00
NCAA Banquet Sales    $15,639.00
NCAA Reimbursement    $140,919.00
NCAA Reimbursement Other    $32,098.00
Total Revenue    $325,528.00
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 30, 2018, 03:42:36 pm
I distinctly notice the lack of advertising on the Shenandoah budget, whereas it is more than 10 percent of the Salem budget.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: ADL70 on October 30, 2018, 03:52:28 pm
Well, the largest line item at $71,900 is "Misc." nearly 29% of the budget and almost double the next largest item, Tailgate.  There's also $20,000 for "Promo items."
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 30, 2018, 05:52:38 pm
Yeah. Promotional items are giveaway items generally, not used in the traditional advertising method of getting a message into the marketplace. But that's a fair point -- that Misc item is a ton of padding.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on October 30, 2018, 06:04:16 pm
What is generally the level of involvement in the co-sponsor? As in, what did the ODAC do for the Salem Stagg Bowls or other co-sponsors for other championships.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 30, 2018, 06:06:56 pm
What is generally the level of involvement in the co-sponsor? As in, what did the ODAC do for the Salem Stagg Bowls or other co-sponsors for other championships.

It's hard for us to know exactly, but from our experience, the ODAC handled all media arrangements, including gameday media operations.  Not sure what else.

We have been told that the sponsoring institution this year might be asked to do a little more, but we don't know the details there, either.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: hazzben on October 31, 2018, 10:26:10 am
What is generally the level of involvement in the co-sponsor? As in, what did the ODAC do for the Salem Stagg Bowls or other co-sponsors for other championships.

It's hard for us to know exactly, but from our experience, the ODAC handled all media arrangements, including gameday media operations.  Not sure what else.

We have been told that the sponsoring institution this year might be asked to do a little more, but we don't know the details there, either.

For the sake of D3 and the two teams that make it, I really hope Shenandoah doesn't crap the bed on this ... doesn't look encouraging at this point.

Pat, from your perspective, what if anything should the NCAA take from this debacle into the next rounds of bids? Is there a way to ensure that a city is taking this seriously? Obviously it's tricky because it looks like the core issue here is a new group of elected officials who basically feel like it's someone else's mess that they aren't interested in dealing with.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Kira & Jaxon's Dad on October 31, 2018, 10:49:51 am
Give it back to Salem or move it to Canton!

Although if MTU makes it this year, I hope to make the drive from Tampa, FL to TX.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: bleedpurple on October 31, 2018, 12:47:27 pm
It seems to me that at the heart of Salem's success were some very devoted volunteers (extending far beyond elected officials) pouring themselves into the Stagg Bowl experience (which was always so much more than just the game.

Two thoughts spring from this:

1. Maybe the NCAA needs to consider this as a huge factor in weighing who to award a bit to in the first place.

2. Is there a core group of local people driving this project?  We are just over five weeks out and behind the 8 ball. But a lot can get done in five weeks. If there is no one running with this, could the NCAA reach out to the former officials who sold them on the project and form a core group with their contacts in the area? I know it sounds like a reach, but the Stagg Bowl has always been such a special experience for the kids, I'd hate to have even one sub-par year.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 31, 2018, 12:55:59 pm
I'll say this -- it isn't Shenandoah's first championship. They've hosted D-III swimming and diving before, and that's a huge logistical challenge. But football is the bigger fan event -- the biggest fan event among championship events solely involving D-III teams. (Men's lacrosse is a joint championship with the other levels and that's an entire different animal as well.)

However, the city manager who was the driving force behind this bid left, and those who have followed have not had the same enthusiasm.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Toby Taff on October 31, 2018, 01:53:10 pm
I assume UMHB is still the cohosting institution, and anyone who has been up stairs in the Cruthedral on game day knows they don't do half-a$$ed. I'm going to trust that they are working to make sure this is a great experience
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 31, 2018, 01:58:04 pm
I assume UMHB is still the cohosting institution, and anyone who has been up stairs in the Cruthedral on game day knows they don't do half-a$$ed. I'm going to trust that they are working to make sure this is a great experience

Yes, but the money doesn't come from UMHB.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on October 31, 2018, 02:18:08 pm
I assume UMHB is still the cohosting institution, and anyone who has been up stairs in the Cruthedral on game day knows they don't do half-a$$ed. I'm going to trust that they are working to make sure this is a great experience

Yes, but the money doesn't come from UMHB.

But if the money is there, which seems to be true based on the budget, it seems like there is a chance that this isn't a failure.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: SaintsFAN on October 31, 2018, 02:24:07 pm
This can't be real. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: phil on October 31, 2018, 02:52:02 pm
If you'll notice from the April 11 Shenandoah Board Minutes, they weren't exactly happy to even be hosting the SCAC Golf Tournament last April. Besides more confusion over what they were obligated to provide, the previous administration negotiated a no-cost contract with the SCAC if all teams stayed in Shenandoah Hotels. Regarding the SCAC golf tourney: "Mayor Wheeler asked Mr. Ferebee what the City’s obligations were and read a portion of the letter from the SCAC Commissioner sent to the previous City Administrator that stated, “your offer to pick up all fees associated with the three-day event in lieu of our teams agreeing to stay at designated Shenandoah hotel properties was well received and unanimously supported.” Mr. Ferebee stated that the first time the contracts were seen by Mr. Ferebee were related to the Stagg Bowl. Mr. Ferebee suggested that the contracts be discussed further and then some months later City Council was presented with an increased budget for the Stagg Bowl. He added that he had not seen the contract until recently and that it was signed by the former City Administrator. He added that the current staff had been trying to put on the event and save as much money as possible for the City, but that there are not a lot of options related to the current golf tournament. Mayor Wheeler asked if Mr. Ferebee felt the City was contractually bound. Mr. Ferebee replied that he felt the City was contractually bound. Councilmember Raymaker asked how the City can be protected in the future from this type of thing happening again... "

Estimated budget for SCAC Golf Tourney = $47000. I'm sure they're thrilled with the Stagg Bowl. I'll be at the stadium on Friday night for a big high school game – where they should drawing about 8,000-10,000 fans. You would think they'd be promoting the Stagg Bowl like crazy on the Jumbotron at high school games. I'll be sure to let y'all know when and if I ever see anything promoting the Stagg Bowl. You would think between the Jumbotron at Woodforest Bank Stadium, and the programs which get handed out very week for high school games (4 high schools share the stadium), they should have at least been working on an awareness campaign for some time now. Somehow though, I doubt it.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: ADL70 on October 31, 2018, 05:16:27 pm
Shouldn't this topic be renamed to prevent confusion by casual browsers?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX tables approval of 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: SaintsFAN on October 31, 2018, 05:26:54 pm
Looks like Merle was right.

And he hasn't logged in since April.  Right Pat?  Or does he have a new name??
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on October 31, 2018, 07:57:53 pm
Merle is no longer a member of our posting community.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: SaintsFAN on November 05, 2018, 02:24:17 pm
Merle is no longer a member of our posting community.

Ah, that makes sense. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: phil on November 05, 2018, 07:38:29 pm
I went to a high school game at Woodforest Bank Stadium on Friday night. The Woodlands v. Klein Collins for first place in the District: https://www.woodlandsonline.com/vmps/videolisting.cfm?vdoid=3237

They probably had about 8,000 in attendance. Nothing on the Jumbotron about the DIII National Championship game. Nothing in the program. Nothing from the announcer. If someone wants to watch the entire game and see if they even mention it – have at it. Darn good game with D1 talent on both 6A squads. First game The Woodlands loses in District in six years. A separated ankle with broken fibula to help inspire Klein Collins on their last drive of the game.

The penny pinchers from Shenandoah (they purchase video ad space on the Jumbotron to advertise what ... the town?), should at least reach out to The Woodlands High School (which they can walk to), to lock up the band for free at halftime. Arguably the best HS band in the country – at 1:06 on the video. Grand National Champs a few years ago.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ron Boerger on November 06, 2018, 04:25:35 pm
[...]

The penny pinchers from Shenandoah (they purchase video ad space on the Jumbotron to advertise what ... the town?), should at least reach out to The Woodlands High School (which they can walk to), to lock up the band for free at halftime. Arguably the best HS band in the country – at 1:06 on the video. Grand National Champs a few years ago.


A very fine band which placed eighth at last weekend's BOA Super Regional in San Antonio and surprisingly did not qualify as one of the top ten 6A bands for today's state UIL marching finals.   Seventh in the country at last year's BOA grand national championship.  Regardless of the actual positioning, would be a great choice for a Stagg Bowl halftime show. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Toby Taff on November 07, 2018, 12:38:44 pm
Just sent an email to the Mayor saying, "do a great job...for TEXAS!"
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: phil on November 24, 2018, 01:26:47 pm
This happened last night as time ran out in the 2nd round 6A high school playoff game between Cedar Ridge & The Woodlands at Woodforest Bank Stadium. Final score 53-50, The Woodlands.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZbqnGTtqEU
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: ADL70 on December 03, 2018, 09:37:51 am
No ticket or any details on the NCAA site, so I went looking and found these promos from Shenandoah - looks like tix will be GA:

https://www.tripstodiscover.com/a-major-college-football-championship-game-is-coming-to-shenandoah-texas/


http://shenandoahtx.us/staggbowltailgate2018.cfm?utm_source=tripstodiscover&utm_medium=banner&utm_term=staggbowl 

Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 04, 2018, 08:41:59 pm
I would have preferred the Dallas Cowboy indoor 12,000 seat practice stadium that is used for Frisco TX Independent School District games for the Stagg...

https://www.thestarinfrisco.com/ford-center
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: ADL70 on December 05, 2018, 08:54:54 am
I still prefer football outdoors, except in northern climes.  I wish that Georgetown would make a bid. Nice 10,000 seat ISD stadium and it's in the deep in the heart of Texas d3 country - Southwestern, UMHB, TLU, and Trinity with Howard Payne and H-SU fairly close as well.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Bob.Gregg on December 05, 2018, 01:35:11 pm
I prefer it outdoors as well.  I wish Orlando would bid again.  That was the best week of covering college football I've ever had.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Toby Taff on December 06, 2018, 10:16:14 am
tickets are for sale on the shenandoahtx.us website.

https://www.etix.com/ticket/p/3187181/stagg-bowl-46-ncaa-division-3-championship-shenandoah-wood-forest-bank-stadium (https://www.etix.com/ticket/p/3187181/stagg-bowl-46-ncaa-division-3-championship-shenandoah-wood-forest-bank-stadium)
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on December 06, 2018, 10:58:36 am
I would have preferred the Dallas Cowboy indoor 12,000 seat practice stadium that is used for Frisco TX Independent School District games for the Stagg...

https://www.thestarinfrisco.com/ford-center

Love this idea, while I agree with the notion that football is meant to be played outdoors I never like it when weather affects a game. The outcome shouldn't be determined by which team survived the elements better.

Also, as with Canton, this facility has the ability for the players to truly feel special.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: ADL70 on December 07, 2018, 09:04:13 am
tickets are for sale on the shenandoahtx.us website.

https://www.etix.com/ticket/p/3187181/stagg-bowl-46-ncaa-division-3-championship-shenandoah-wood-forest-bank-stadium (https://www.etix.com/ticket/p/3187181/stagg-bowl-46-ncaa-division-3-championship-shenandoah-wood-forest-bank-stadium)

That was linked in what I posted. But I'll wait until we know who the home and visitor will be.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: zipmac22 on December 07, 2018, 09:34:01 pm
I noticed from a YouTube video on a fly over that the home side had what looked like reserved seats with all other seating being "bleacher" style. But, I couldn't tell if the visitor side has the same set up. Does anyone know?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: ADL70 on December 08, 2018, 01:47:34 pm
No chairbacks on vis side

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEdP3UenlzY
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: TexasBB on December 10, 2018, 01:42:34 pm
Just a typical HS stadium in Texas. There are several stadiums in the Dallas Area that are much more impressive. Southlake Carroll, Allen HS.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjyodOQ9ZXfAhUMC6wKHeOqAnAQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fdfw.cbslocal.com%2Ftag%2Feagle-stadium%2F&psig=AOvVaw22hM82UED4Gvau9uS2Xct4&ust=1544553675161436
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: TexasBB on December 10, 2018, 01:51:43 pm
Allen HS is where Kyler Murray, the Heisman Trophy winner played and led Allen to a Texas large school State Title. That HS has over 4,700 students in grades 9-12.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 12, 2018, 05:50:47 pm
I changed jobs this year, so I won't be able to make the Stagg, this year.

I will put the date on my calendar for 2019.

Y'all have fun.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: ADL70 on December 13, 2018, 04:09:18 pm
I just tried to buy a "home" ticket and got the reply no tickets.  Looks like Texans are representing.

I haven't seen anything on the site about d3football "tailgate." Perhaps something in the morning - pregame podcast?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 14, 2018, 10:09:37 pm
What was attendance?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: (509)Rat on December 14, 2018, 10:38:23 pm
Just a typical HS stadium in Texas. There are several stadiums in the Dallas Area that are much more impressive. Southlake Carroll, Allen HS.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjyodOQ9ZXfAhUMC6wKHeOqAnAQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fdfw.cbslocal.com%2Ftag%2Feagle-stadium%2F&psig=AOvVaw22hM82UED4Gvau9uS2Xct4&ust=1544553675161436

Mckinney ISDs new stadium would take the #2 spot from Southlake pretty easily. But IMO you have 3 outdoor stadiums and The Star that would all be better venues than Shenandoah.

The biggest problem with The Star would be high school playoffs. Semis typically start moving to AT&T stadium but there are still games at the Cowboys indoor facility tonight.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: AO on December 14, 2018, 11:14:54 pm
What was attendance?
Box Score has it at 6816, very nice turnout.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 15, 2018, 10:53:57 am
6,816 is the most since the 7,992 in Salem VA when Bridgewater VA made its run to the Stagg in 2001.

I would think that the venue in Canton is worth at least 1,000 fans as curiosity seekers go to Canton in 2020.

Mount Union fans might push that another 5,000.

Otherwise, we have seen attendance in Salem as low as

3,240 in 2004 for Linfield and UMHB, the first Stagg appearance for both teams
3,468 in 2008 for UMU and UWW
3,784 in 2011 for UMU and UWW
3,476 in 2016 for UMHB and UWO (and this was the first time for UWO and the first time for UMHB since 2004)

If fans have to travel across the country for the game, then the attendance is not good, no matter where it will be held.

The weather with the wind and temperatures in the high 40's was not dreadful football weather. I am sure that the linemen loved it.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: HScoach on December 15, 2018, 12:10:18 pm
Canton has the advantage of being a reasonable driving distance to a large portion of D3.  Teams like MHB and Linfield would likely be a plane flight regardless of whether the Stagg was in Salem VA or Canton OH, but the Canton location could be a real boost to attendance if someone like UWW makes the Stagg.  Canton is half the distance from UWW that Salem is.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 15, 2018, 07:17:52 pm
Canton has the advantage of being a reasonable driving distance to a large portion of D3.  Teams like MHB and Linfield would likely be a plane flight regardless of whether the Stagg was in Salem VA or Canton OH, but the Canton location could be a real boost to attendance if someone like UWW makes the Stagg.  Canton is half the distance from UWW that Salem is.
UWW has never played anyone else but UMU in the Stagg.  I think that we will have to wait to see the attendance numbers for a Stagg at the NFL HOF venue, regardless of the teams.  Those 9 games have had an attendance range of 3,468 in 2011 to 6,051 in 2006.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on March 01, 2019, 04:44:50 pm
The Houston Chronicle wrote a follow up story to the game from the prospective of the city of Shenandoah and how pleased they were with the event and it can be found at https://www.chron.com/neighborhood/woodlands/news/article/First-year-of-hosting-the-Stagg-Bowl-is-a-big-win-13653795.php.

Also if anyone wants to watch more of their city council meetings they did a review there as well that can be watched at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_1PlUO6bvg&t=1346s. The Stagg Bowl portion starts at minute 13 and last until minute 37.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: edward de vere on December 08, 2019, 01:44:53 am
What was attendance?
Box Score has it at 6816, very nice turnout.

Projected attendance this year?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Toby Taff on December 08, 2019, 05:34:33 am
What was attendance?
Box Score has it at 6816, very nice turnout.

Projected attendance this year?
Significantly lower, but flying in is easy and the drive up to the stadium from the airport is fairly short.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: nccfac on December 12, 2019, 09:51:25 pm
Toby,
What is the best airport to fly into? Thank you for your response in advance.
Might not make it. Depends on this weekend. These are going to be two tough close games. The final should be epic in any case.
 Thanks again.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 12, 2019, 11:07:46 pm
Toby,
What is the best airport to fly into? Thank you for your response in advance.
Might not make it. Depends on this weekend. These are going to be two tough close games. The final should be epic in any case.
 Thanks again.

Definitely fly into IAH. Right side of town, lots of non-stops.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: nccfac on December 13, 2019, 12:22:16 pm
Thanks Pat!
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Toby Taff on December 14, 2019, 07:06:53 pm
Toby,
What is the best airport to fly into? Thank you for your response in advance.
Might not make it. Depends on this weekend. These are going to be two tough close games. The final should be epic in any case.
 Thanks again.
What Pat said. Intercontinental is easy to get to and from off of I45. Shenandoah is on I45. Straight shot. We stayed at the Days Inn in Shenandoah for something like 60 bucks and everything is accessible.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Teamski on December 16, 2019, 04:10:31 pm
Weather should be nice for the game....61 and partly cloudy.  Canton?  Not so much.  40...... Expect future Stagg Bowls to be ice bowls with even colder temps.

-Ski
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: AO on December 16, 2019, 04:39:03 pm
Weather should be nice for the game....61 and partly cloudy.  Canton?  Not so much.  40...... Expect future Stagg Bowls to be ice bowls with even colder temps.

-Ski
40 sounds quite nice to me
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on December 16, 2019, 04:50:37 pm
Weather should be nice for the game....61 and partly cloudy.  Canton?  Not so much.  40...... Expect future Stagg Bowls to be ice bowls with even colder temps.

-Ski
40 in December is balmy. We've got several inches of snow here in Indiana today.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 16, 2019, 07:10:02 pm
Looking back at the bracket, the only thing standing in front of North Central and the Stagg Bowl was Mount Union.

IMHO. that "eastern" bracket was much weaker than we even imagined.

The "western" bracket had Wheaton, SJU, UMHB and UWW.

I cannot make a case for Del Valley because of how close Bridgewater played them.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wally_wabash on December 17, 2019, 12:02:12 am
Looking back at the bracket, the only thing standing in front of North Central and the Stagg Bowl was Mount Union.

IMHO. that "eastern" bracket was much weaker than we even imagined.

The "western" bracket had Wheaton, SJU, UMHB and UWW.

I cannot make a case for Del Valley because of how close Bridgewater played them.

This take is never really very good, but it's particularly not good in a year when an "eastern" team beat a WIAC champion who recently beat one of the teams playing for the national championship.  The annual pile-on on the East region should probably just get skipped this year. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 17, 2019, 08:52:24 am
Looking back at the bracket, the only thing standing in front of North Central and the Stagg Bowl was Mount Union.

IMHO. that "eastern" bracket was much weaker than we even imagined.

The "western" bracket had Wheaton, SJU, UMHB and UWW.

I cannot make a case for Del Valley because of how close Bridgewater played them.

This take is never really very good, but it's particularly not good in a year when an "eastern" team beat a WIAC champion who recently beat one of the teams playing for the national championship.  The annual pile-on on the East region should probably just get skipped this year.
Thanks for the comment. Pat and Keith mentioned this in the podcast as well.
However, IMHO, the best 6 teams in the country were definitely separated from the rest of the field. I will wait for the Stagg to give a better understanding.

For now it looks like the UWW SJU semifinal was the championship game in the playoffs.  I hope that we have temps in the lower 50's, a dry field and less than 10 MPH winds.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on December 17, 2019, 09:56:46 am
For now it looks like the UWW SJU semifinal was the championship game in the playoffs.  I hope that we have temps in the lower 50's, a dry field and less than 10 MPH winds.

Unless it's the North Central-Mount Union second-round game ...
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on December 17, 2019, 10:10:06 am
For now it looks like the UWW SJU semifinal was the championship game in the playoffs.  I hope that we have temps in the lower 50's, a dry field and less than 10 MPH winds.

Unless it's the North Central-Mount Union second-round game ...

Lets hope its the UWW-North Central game haha

I really do hope that is the case as it would show that the field is being widen in D3. If the championship game really was the North Central-Mount Union 2nd round game that kind of retroactively sucks the life out of the final few rounds. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: retagent on December 17, 2019, 11:57:33 am
Arguably, in hind sight, the SJU/UMHB tilt was the "Stagg Bowl" last year. And that was a Quarter-final.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wally_wabash on December 17, 2019, 12:55:44 pm
Arguably, in hind sight, the SJU/UMHB tilt was the "Stagg Bowl" last year. And that was a Quarter-final.

What guarantees were there that St. John's would have won the next two? Or that St. John's would have won this week?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 17, 2019, 01:40:54 pm
For now it looks like the UWW SJU semifinal was the championship game in the playoffs.  I hope that we have temps in the lower 50's, a dry field and less than 10 MPH winds.

Unless it's the North Central-Mount Union second-round game ...
Yes, that would also be a great nominee.

I hope that we see a UWW-NCC Stagg Bowl that is predicate to those two games.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: HSCTiger74 on December 17, 2019, 01:43:04 pm
Looking back at the bracket, the only thing standing in front of North Central and the Stagg Bowl was Mount Union.

IMHO. that "eastern" bracket was much weaker than we even imagined.

The "western" bracket had Wheaton, SJU, UMHB and UWW.

I cannot make a case for Del Valley because of how close Bridgewater played them.

Or just maybe Bridgewater was better than you're willing to give them credit for.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 17, 2019, 02:20:37 pm
Looking back at the bracket, the only thing standing in front of North Central and the Stagg Bowl was Mount Union.

IMHO. that "eastern" bracket was much weaker than we even imagined.

The "western" bracket had Wheaton, SJU, UMHB and UWW.

I cannot make a case for Del Valley because of how close Bridgewater played them.

Or just maybe Bridgewater was better than you're willing to give them credit for.
Respectfully yes.

When it comes time for my South Region Fan Poll, I really need to reassess Bridgewater.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: smedindy on December 17, 2019, 04:15:16 pm
Funny, I didn't think regions played the game. Just the teams that happen to be in the arbitrary regions the NCAA assigns to them.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: retagent on December 18, 2019, 09:24:11 am
Arguably, in hind sight, the SJU/UMHB tilt was the "Stagg Bowl" last year. And that was a Quarter-final.

What guarantees were there that St. John's would have won the next two? Or that St. John's would have won this week?

I guess our criteria are different. My only contention is that seemed to be the closest contested until the end, game the Championship team played. Can't speak for anything else, nor did I mean to imply anything else.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: bleedpurple on December 19, 2019, 12:24:36 am
Looking back at the bracket, the only thing standing in front of North Central and the Stagg Bowl was Mount Union.

IMHO. that "eastern" bracket was much weaker than we even imagined.

The "western" bracket had Wheaton, SJU, UMHB and UWW.

I cannot make a case for Del Valley because of how close Bridgewater played them.

This take is never really very good, but it's particularly not good in a year when an "eastern" team beat a WIAC champion who recently beat one of the teams playing for the national championship.  The annual pile-on on the East region should probably just get skipped this year.

I don't know... it seems like when you have to use a relatively weak transitive property example instead of just using the actual playoff performance of the east teams, that's not exactly the strongest defense of the east.  Beating UW-0 September 14 doesn't come anywhere close to beating UW-W in December. Just my less than neutral opinion.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ralph Turner on December 21, 2019, 12:05:05 am
Congrats to NCC!
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on December 21, 2019, 09:50:47 am
Speaking of Oshkosh and transitive properties... something that probably only interests me is looking at a bracket and seeing the longest chain of teams to be made and this year that begins with UW-Oshkosh.
Oshkosh lost to Central who lost to Wheaton who lost to St John's who lost to UW-Whitewater who lost to North Central. Had UWW won last night that spot would have gone to Case Western Reserve. Last year the "honor" went to Framingham St.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: jknezek on January 29, 2020, 08:58:04 am
So can we stick a fork in Shenandoah as a venue for the Stagg? Sure it's decent when UMHB plays, but it's really hard to claim any kind of community support for the event after this year. I understand the weather wasn't great, but 1362 officially is.... putrid. All the complaints about Salem, but even in the worst weather, people cared and showed up. You have to go back to the mid 80s and Phenix City AL to get official attendance as pathetic as this year. Which kind of proves the point. Areas with limited to no connection to DIII make poor options for these games.

Looking forward to Canton next year. Close to the heart of DIII country. While I have nothing against UMU, I do hope they don't make it at least one of the next two years so we can get a bead on community support for the Stagg in that area. I think the NCAA underestimated how much Salem put into those games year after year, but I expect Canton will do better than Texas.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: MUC57 on January 29, 2020, 09:28:08 am
So can we stick a fork in Shenandoah as a venue for the Stagg? Sure it's decent when UMHB plays, but it's really hard to claim any kind of community support for the event after this year. I understand the weather wasn't great, but 1362 officially is.... putrid. All the complaints about Salem, but even in the worst weather, people cared and showed up. You have to go back to the mid 80s and Phenix City AL to get official attendance as pathetic as this year. Which kind of proves the point. Areas with limited to no connection to DIII make poor options for these games.

Looking forward to Canton next year. Close to the heart of DIII country. While I have nothing against UMU, I do hope they don't make it at least one of the next two years so we can get a bead on community support for the Stagg in that area. I think the NCAA underestimated how much Salem put into those games year after year, but I expect Canton will do better than Texas.

jknezek

Good post. While I hope Mount Union makes it both years, or at least one year, I certainly understand your comment. Be nice to see the attendance if UMU isn't there. The Pro Football Hall of Fame will be quite a venue. We have the OAC Media Day there. 
I have never been to a Stagg Bowl so would love to see one close to home. (I live in Alliance, 18 miles from Canton).
Anyway, good to see you posting again. Best to ya in 2️⃣0️⃣2️⃣0️⃣ ❗️😃
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: jamtod on January 29, 2020, 09:28:54 am
Speaking of Oshkosh and transitive properties... something that probably only interests me is looking at a bracket and seeing the longest chain of teams to be made and this year that begins with UW-Oshkosh.
Oshkosh lost to Central who lost to Wheaton who lost to St John's who lost to UW-Whitewater who lost to North Central. Had UWW won last night that spot would have gone to Case Western Reserve. Last year the "honor" went to Framingham St.

This is particularly amusing since we can go back one game further and find Oshkosh beating UWW.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: jknezek on January 29, 2020, 09:34:48 am
So can we stick a fork in Shenandoah as a venue for the Stagg? Sure it's decent when UMHB plays, but it's really hard to claim any kind of community support for the event after this year. I understand the weather wasn't great, but 1362 officially is.... putrid. All the complaints about Salem, but even in the worst weather, people cared and showed up. You have to go back to the mid 80s and Phenix City AL to get official attendance as pathetic as this year. Which kind of proves the point. Areas with limited to no connection to DIII make poor options for these games.

Looking forward to Canton next year. Close to the heart of DIII country. While I have nothing against UMU, I do hope they don't make it at least one of the next two years so we can get a bead on community support for the Stagg in that area. I think the NCAA underestimated how much Salem put into those games year after year, but I expect Canton will do better than Texas.

jknezek

Good post. While I hope Mount Union makes it both years, or at least one year, I certainly understand your comment. Be nice to see the attendance if UMU isn't there. The Pro Football Hall of Fame will be quite a venue. We have the OAC Media Day there. 
I have never been to a Stagg Bowl so would love to see one close to home. (I live in Alliance, 18 miles from Canton).
Anyway, good to see you posting again. Best to ya in 2️⃣0️⃣2️⃣0️⃣ ❗️😃

You as well. And I have nothing against UMU making it both years other than curiosity. When push comes to shove, I admit to having a bias toward the small DIII schools vs the state schools. Hope your new coach is healthy and successful and 2020 is a good year for you as well.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ron Boerger on January 29, 2020, 09:36:42 am
Given that the Shenandoah city council thought about bailing on the NCAA before the first one, and that there was no fortune made the second time around, I can't see them applying to host again.  The scarcity of D3 football programs in the area (UMHB, SW, TLU are probably the only schools within 200 miles) means nobody local has a clue about the schools involved or D3 football in general. 

Though I doubt it would have made a huge difference in attendance, I never understood why UMHB partnered with a high school district so far away instead of one in the central Texas area.  There are plenty of facilities around here that are up to the standard Shenandoah set.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on January 29, 2020, 10:10:03 am
The new-new city manager wants to have it again, apparently. But it also seems like that position turns over pretty frequently.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ron Boerger on January 29, 2020, 10:18:57 am
The new-new city manager wants to have it again, apparently. But it also seems like that position turns over pretty frequently.

No kidding.  By the time the next open year comes up they'll probably have gone through two more. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wally_wabash on January 30, 2020, 03:59:37 pm
So can we stick a fork in Shenandoah as a venue for the Stagg? Sure it's decent when UMHB plays, but it's really hard to claim any kind of community support for the event after this year. I understand the weather wasn't great, but 1362 officially is.... putrid. All the complaints about Salem, but even in the worst weather, people cared and showed up. You have to go back to the mid 80s and Phenix City AL to get official attendance as pathetic as this year. Which kind of proves the point. Areas with limited to no connection to DIII make poor options for these games.

Looking forward to Canton next year. Close to the heart of DIII country. While I have nothing against UMU, I do hope they don't make it at least one of the next two years so we can get a bead on community support for the Stagg in that area. I think the NCAA underestimated how much Salem put into those games year after year, but I expect Canton will do better than Texas.

I won't pretend to know much about how championship sites are bid for and awarded, but I'll share my final Shenandoah thoughts here. 

I think Shenandoah did a passable job given that in the late summer/early fall of 2018 there were still council conversations happening about whether or not they would even host the event.  So, going from no event to completing the event without significant issues is a win.  But the bar should never, ever be that low for a national championship event. 

I'll get to attendance in a minute, but just a quick recap on some of the major advantages that we were sold leading into Stagg Bowls in Texas:

- The weather is going to be great!  The weather was decidedly not great in either year.  I'm sure that the weather in The Woodlands for the next five years on Stagg Bowl Friday will be 72 and perfect, but that didn't happen in '18-'19 and is obviously not something that you can guarantee.

- Having the game in a major metro area makes it easier for people to travel to the game.   I'm not sure this panned out the way it was advertised either.  Yes, there are two major airports "in the area" and there are a lot of flights that get there, but the cost wasn't awesome.  This year in particular with the game pushed back all the way to Christmas weekend, flights were already booked and what was available was very expensive.  Y'all, I had to fly out Saturday morning on Spirit.  Spirit.  There were first hand accounts on this site from NCC fans that either couldn't make it happen or had to really grind to get down there.  It wasn't as easy as it was made out to be.  Also, Shenandoah is not exactly airport adjacent.  Whether you went into IAH (30 or so minutes away) or Hobby (about an hour away), you still had to get a car to get up to Shenandoah.

- The people of Texas love football- any football- and they will come out and support this event. Attendance in 2018 I think really masked this fallacy more than anybody would have thought.  In both years I didn't get the sense that the greater Shenandoah community had any idea that this event was even happening.  10 miles south toward Houston and I don't think any casual football fan would have even known the event existed, let alone that it was happening in their backyard.  And so, when one of the participants isn't within driving distance, you wind up with absolutely nobody except the diehards from the participating teams in the stadium.  And that was a major bummer.  But I think it ends once and for all the debate about whether or not your average Texas football fan is going to carve out three hours to watch this game, particularly on a night when HS state finals are happening.  They aren't and they won't. 

So I think the three main pillars of what made this site hypothetically great all fell way, way short of expectation.  In addition to those main things, I don't think Shenandoah embraced the entirety of the event.  Broc Rutter should have received his Gagliardi Trophy at a  formal ceremony during the week and not in an ESPN media prep meeting.  There needed to be more stuff for the players to experience while there.  Line up a tour at Johnson Space Center.  Workout at NRG.  Something more than a couple of hours at knockoff Dave & Busters.  Dan Dutcher really emphasized the student-athlete experience in our pregame interview, and I just don't think Shenandoah really committed to that part of the deal.  What we really got the last two years was like the stripped down freemium version of Stagg Bowl.  Doing the event properly requires a subscription. 

If Shenandoah intends to bid again (who knows what will happen as that leadership changes too often for any long term messaging to be something you can count on), any bid there has to answer the question: How are you going to sell 4,000 tickets to this event in your community?  I don't know that there is a plan for that- like I said, I didn't get any sense that the community around The Woodlands had any clue this was even going on.  Lowest Stagg Bowl attendance ever is a shaky foundation from which to launch another request to host the event.  I would be very, very surprised if this event goes back there, anytime soon.  Or ever really.  I think if you're going to host this event out in the D3 wilderness, you have to knock it out of the park.  I think Shenandoah did fine, but I don't think they left the kind of impact on this event that makes people really want to go back there. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Toby Taff on January 30, 2020, 05:10:47 pm

 particularly on a night when HS state finals are happening.  They aren't and they won't.

This is a big part of it. Texans love their football, emphasis on their. The state finals are the same weekend every year and televised on Fox Sports. It is an event that people get together to watch. I know folks who make state tournaments in FB and basketball their reunion time each year. Attendance at this years 6A Division I title game was 47818, Division II was 35278. The Division I game was better attended than almost 70% of bowl games. Unless there are serious advertising dollars spent to draw folks in, having the Stagg on a Championship game night in Texas is not going to be well attended.

*update* Looking at the numbers, The last game on the 19th (3A div 2) drew 15,200. The first game on the 20th (4A div 1) 16k+. The lowest attendance was a 6-man game and it was 1400+. That weekend is death to any non-UIL football event because so many coaches and fans make it a destination weekend.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Etchglow on January 30, 2020, 05:28:29 pm
So can we stick a fork in Shenandoah as a venue for the Stagg? Sure it's decent when UMHB plays, but it's really hard to claim any kind of community support for the event after this year. I understand the weather wasn't great, but 1362 officially is.... putrid. All the complaints about Salem, but even in the worst weather, people cared and showed up. You have to go back to the mid 80s and Phenix City AL to get official attendance as pathetic as this year. Which kind of proves the point. Areas with limited to no connection to DIII make poor options for these games.

Looking forward to Canton next year. Close to the heart of DIII country. While I have nothing against UMU, I do hope they don't make it at least one of the next two years so we can get a bead on community support for the Stagg in that area. I think the NCAA underestimated how much Salem put into those games year after year, but I expect Canton will do better than Texas.

I won't pretend to know much about how championship sites are bid for and awarded, but I'll share my final Shenandoah thoughts here. 

I think Shenandoah did a passable job given that in the late summer/early fall of 2018 there were still council conversations happening about whether or not they would even host the event.  So, going from no event to completing the event without significant issues is a win.  But the bar should never, ever be that low for a national championship event. 

I'll get to attendance in a minute, but just a quick recap on some of the major advantages that we were sold leading into Stagg Bowls in Texas:

- The weather is going to be great!  The weather was decidedly not great in either year.  I'm sure that the weather in The Woodlands for the next five years on Stagg Bowl Friday will be 72 and perfect, but that didn't happen in '18-'19 and is obviously not something that you can guarantee.

- Having the game in a major metro area makes it easier for people to travel to the game.   I'm not sure this panned out the way it was advertised either.  Yes, there are two major airports "in the area" and there are a lot of flights that get there, but the cost wasn't awesome.  This year in particular with the game pushed back all the way to Christmas weekend, flights were already booked and what was available was very expensive.  Y'all, I had to fly out Saturday morning on Spirit.  Spirit.  There were first hand accounts on this site from NCC fans that either couldn't make it happen or had to really grind to get down there.  It wasn't as easy as it was made out to be.  Also, Shenandoah is not exactly airport adjacent.  Whether you went into IAH (30 or so minutes away) or Hobby (about an hour away), you still had to get a car to get up to Shenandoah.

- The people of Texas love football- any football- and they will come out and support this event. Attendance in 2018 I think really masked this fallacy more than anybody would have thought.  In both years I didn't get the sense that the greater Shenandoah community had any idea that this event was even happening.  10 miles south toward Houston and I don't think any casual football fan would have even known the event existed, let alone that it was happening in their backyard.  And so, when one of the participants isn't within driving distance, you wind up with absolutely nobody except the diehards from the participating teams in the stadium.  And that was a major bummer.  But I think it ends once and for all the debate about whether or not your average Texas football fan is going to carve out three hours to watch this game, particularly on a night when HS state finals are happening.  They aren't and they won't. 

So I think the three main pillars of what made this site hypothetically great all fell way, way short of expectation.  In addition to those main things, I don't think Shenandoah embraced the entirety of the event.  Broc Rutter should have received his Gagliardi Trophy at a  formal ceremony during the week and not in an ESPN media prep meeting.  There needed to be more stuff for the players to experience while there.  Line up a tour at Johnson Space Center.  Workout at NRG.  Something more than a couple of hours at knockoff Dave & Busters.  Dan Dutcher really emphasized the student-athlete experience in our pregame interview, and I just don't think Shenandoah really committed to that part of the deal.  What we really got the last two years was like the stripped down freemium version of Stagg Bowl.  Doing the event properly requires a subscription. 

If Shenandoah intends to bid again (who knows what will happen as that leadership changes too often for any long term messaging to be something you can count on), any bid there has to answer the question: How are you going to sell 4,000 tickets to this event in your community?  I don't know that there is a plan for that- like I said, I didn't get any sense that the community around The Woodlands had any clue this was even going on.  Lowest Stagg Bowl attendance ever is a shaky foundation from which to launch another request to host the event.  I would be very, very surprised if this event goes back there, anytime soon.  Or ever really.  I think if you're going to host this event out in the D3 wilderness, you have to knock it out of the park.  I think Shenandoah did fine, but I don't think they left the kind of impact on this event that makes people really want to go back there.

I mean, while the weather wasn't great, it also was abetter than the 33 degrees of 2017, 26 degrees of 2016, and 35 degrees of 2015...


 particularly on a night when HS state finals are happening.  They aren't and they won't.

This is a big part of it. Texans love their football, emphasis on their. The state finals are the same weekend every year and televised on Fox Sports. It is an event that people get together to watch. I know folks who make state tournaments in FB and basketball their reunion time each year. Attendance at this years 6A Division I title game was 47818, Division II was 35278. The Division I game was better attended than almost 70% of bowl games. Unless there are serious advertising dollars spent to draw folks in, having the Stagg on a Championship game night in Texas is not going to be well attended.

*update* Looking at the numbers, The last game on the 19th (3A div 2) drew 15,200. The first game on the 20th (4A div 1) 16k+. The lowest attendance was a 6-man game and it was 1400+. That weekend is death to any non-UIL football event because so many coaches and fans make it a destination weekend.

When your choice is to go to Jerry World to watch state championships, watch football from the comfort of home, or go to Woodforest Bank Stadium in Shenandoah, it is pretty hard to advocate for the latter unless you're a die hard D3 fan...
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on January 30, 2020, 08:58:44 pm
- Having the game in a major metro area makes it easier for people to travel to the game.   I'm not sure this panned out the way it was advertised either.  Yes, there are two major airports "in the area" and there are a lot of flights that get there, but the cost wasn't awesome.  This year in particular with the game pushed back all the way to Christmas weekend, flights were already booked and what was available was very expensive.  Y'all, I had to fly out Saturday morning on Spirit.  Spirit.  There were first hand accounts on this site from NCC fans that either couldn't make it happen or had to really grind to get down there.  It wasn't as easy as it was made out to be.  Also, Shenandoah is not exactly airport adjacent.  Whether you went into IAH (30 or so minutes away) or Hobby (about an hour away), you still had to get a car to get up to Shenandoah.

Are the cost of airline tickets with 6 days notice ever going to be awesome? I can assure you that there were more than a few UMHB folks that didn't love the cost of getting to Salem and won't like it any better if we are lucky enough to get to Canton.

Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Ron Boerger on January 31, 2020, 09:03:09 am
Flight costs are going to bad no matter where the game is held, so the question is how much of D3 world is within some sort of driving distance of proposed sites.   If you put it in a location where 98% of teams/fans would have to fly (e.g. Texas, sad to say), vs. one where "only" 60-70% of teams/fans have to fly, that's a point in favor of the second site.   
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on January 31, 2020, 05:59:12 pm
Flight costs are going to bad no matter where the game is held, so the question is how much of D3 world is within some sort of driving distance of proposed sites.   If you put it in a location where 98% of teams/fans would have to fly (e.g. Texas, sad to say), vs. one where "only" 60-70% of teams/fans have to fly, that's a point in favor of the second site.

Very true but that really wasn't what Greg's critique seemed to be about, there was never a question that Shenandoah was far away from the rest of D3. However it seems unfair to blame them that flights the weekend before Christmas were a tad high to the two airports in the area.

If you want to blast Shenandoah for not truly embracing the event in the way that Salem did, be my guest, as part of the D3football.com crew Wally obviously would have a better feel for that than I would. However to say that the weather wasn't nice enough and the two airports weren't close enough seems to be a reach.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: wally_wabash on January 31, 2020, 06:25:34 pm
Flight costs are going to bad no matter where the game is held, so the question is how much of D3 world is within some sort of driving distance of proposed sites.   If you put it in a location where 98% of teams/fans would have to fly (e.g. Texas, sad to say), vs. one where "only" 60-70% of teams/fans have to fly, that's a point in favor of the second site.

Very true but that really wasn't what Greg's critique seemed to be about, there was never a question that Shenandoah was far away from the rest of D3. However it seems unfair to blame them that flights the weekend before Christmas were a tad high to the two airports in the area.

Valid.  Definitely not the organizers' fault that travel costs at that time were high.  I do think that the dialogue around the convenience of putting the game near-ish a major metro area was overplayed, however.  Maybe not for everybody, and maybe it's my fault for not thinking through it all the way and taking that dialogue at face value, but in the end I don't think attending the game in Shenandoah was "easier" in the way that I think it was talked about being. 

If you want to blast Shenandoah for not truly embracing the event in the way that Salem did, be my guest, as part of the D3football.com crew Wally obviously would have a better feel for that than I would. However to say that the weather wasn't nice enough and the two airports weren't close enough seems to be a reach.

I think the weather is a fair game when considering any future bids from Shenandoah.  Better weather than what Salem generally delivers was a significant pillar here.  We joked, repeatedly, on the field pregame in 2018 that it felt almost exactly like our pregame the previous year in Salem.  Maybe not quite as bitterly cold as it was in Salem, but it was cold and it was windy, and after 3+ hours of pregame setup, production, and teardown on the field, I couldn't feel my face.  Functionally, there was really no difference.  This year we caught a break that the rain trailed off before kickoff, but it still wasn't a pleasant gameday atmosphere for anybody who tried to pregame tailgate.  So, no, it isn't fair to blame Shenandoah for the weather, but the slam dunk great weather for the championship game idea has been proven to be a myth and they really can't steer into that with any future bids. 

But really, by far, the larger issue with this event ever going back to Shenandoah is the attendance problem.  How does that get solved?  Particularly if literally everybody in the area would rather watch the HS playoffs?  I don't think there's a good answer to that and, for me at least, that has to be a dealbreaker.  We just can't have 1400 people at the national championship.  It's a bad look for everybody involved. 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on February 02, 2020, 03:49:29 pm
Flight costs are going to bad no matter where the game is held, so the question is how much of D3 world is within some sort of driving distance of proposed sites.   If you put it in a location where 98% of teams/fans would have to fly (e.g. Texas, sad to say), vs. one where "only" 60-70% of teams/fans have to fly, that's a point in favor of the second site.

Very true but that really wasn't what Greg's critique seemed to be about, there was never a question that Shenandoah was far away from the rest of D3. However it seems unfair to blame them that flights the weekend before Christmas were a tad high to the two airports in the area.

Valid.  Definitely not the organizers' fault that travel costs at that time were high.  I do think that the dialogue around the convenience of putting the game near-ish a major metro area was overplayed, however.  Maybe not for everybody, and maybe it's my fault for not thinking through it all the way and taking that dialogue at face value, but in the end I don't think attending the game in Shenandoah was "easier" in the way that I think it was talked about being. 

If you want to blast Shenandoah for not truly embracing the event in the way that Salem did, be my guest, as part of the D3football.com crew Wally obviously would have a better feel for that than I would. However to say that the weather wasn't nice enough and the two airports weren't close enough seems to be a reach.

I think the weather is a fair game when considering any future bids from Shenandoah.  Better weather than what Salem generally delivers was a significant pillar here.  We joked, repeatedly, on the field pregame in 2018 that it felt almost exactly like our pregame the previous year in Salem.  Maybe not quite as bitterly cold as it was in Salem, but it was cold and it was windy, and after 3+ hours of pregame setup, production, and teardown on the field, I couldn't feel my face.  Functionally, there was really no difference.  This year we caught a break that the rain trailed off before kickoff, but it still wasn't a pleasant gameday atmosphere for anybody who tried to pregame tailgate.  So, no, it isn't fair to blame Shenandoah for the weather, but the slam dunk great weather for the championship game idea has been proven to be a myth and they really can't steer into that with any future bids. 

But really, by far, the larger issue with this event ever going back to Shenandoah is the attendance problem.  How does that get solved?  Particularly if literally everybody in the area would rather watch the HS playoffs?  I don't think there's a good answer to that and, for me at least, that has to be a dealbreaker.  We just can't have 1400 people at the national championship.  It's a bad look for everybody involved.

I could argue some of your points about the travel and weather but it doesn't matter because ultimately I agree with your larger issue. Attendance was always going to be a HUGE issue if UMHB, or some other Texas based team, didn't advance to the Stagg Bowl. I absolutely agree that 1400 people is not good enough and I am not sure there is enough marketing anybody could do to guarantee 4000 people without a Texan team.

However to me that begs the question, what is an acceptable attendance for Canton? I have no doubt that Mount Union would bring a ton if they are involved, however what if they aren't? The average attendance in Salem was a respectable 5,100. That number is not huge but according to google means on average it was 72% full. Tom Benson HOF stadium is another animal though (capacity of 23,000), as 5,100 would only fill 22% of the crowd, the biggest crowd ever in Salem would have filled 35%. Mind you the 1,400 in Texas was 15% which we agreed wasn't a good look.

So do the folks of Canton need to engineer a crowd of 10,000 or more without Mount Union for it to be good? Canton should be able to provide an amazing experience to the student athlete prior to game by letting them go to the HOF, maybe even arrange a meeting with a HOF member, but if the game looks like some of the D1 bowl games in large stadiums with seemingly few in the stands do we have the same bad look?

 
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Pat Coleman on February 02, 2020, 07:14:41 pm
One of the things about Canton is that some of those end zone seats that they have for the Hall of Fame game are temporary, brought in just for the game. They also have a number of different seating areas and I'm sure they won't put 23,000 seats on sale, no matter who is playing.

My thinking is that 8,000 in attendance should be the baseline expectation if Mount Union is playing.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 10, 2020, 04:14:28 pm
In case anyone was curious, the bidding cycle has come to a close ... even though we are only "halfway" through the current bid allocations. From what I understand, national committees will make their decisions on the next four years of bids (2022-21 through 2025-26 academic years) next October, or so.

I do not have any information I can share as to who bid for what.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on February 11, 2020, 09:44:36 am
In case anyone was curious, the bidding cycle has come to a close ... even though we are only "halfway" through the current bid allocations. From what I understand, national committees will make their decisions on the next four years of bids (2022-21 through 2025-26 academic years) next October, or so.

I do not have any information I can share as to who bid for what.

Next October as in 8 months from now or October 2021?
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 11, 2020, 10:43:55 pm
Next October ... similar timing to last cycle, until the North Carolina "bathroom bill" caused a delay until the following March or April.

So we will know the next four years of championship sites shortly early in the third year of the current cycle.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: crufootball on February 12, 2020, 11:37:25 am
Next October ... similar timing to last cycle, until the North Carolina "bathroom bill" caused a delay until the following March or April.

So we will know the next four years of championship sites shortly early in the third year of the current cycle.

Makes sense in that way but interesting that Canton could win another bid before their first bid is every used.
Title: Re: Shenandoah, TX 2018-19 NCAA d3fb championships
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on February 12, 2020, 01:21:54 pm
Possibly on Canton ... but this cycle is what has been developed in the last few go-arounds ... and for football it hasn't been split up like this.

We shall see. Long way to go to get to October at this point.