D3boards.com

Posting Up (Division III basketball) => Men's Basketball => Multi-Regional Topics => Topic started by: Greek Tragedy on April 25, 2020, 06:26:17 pm

Title: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 25, 2020, 06:26:17 pm
Recent conversations on this with Amherst's Hixon retiring recently...

I figured I'd centralize the conversation.


I dint think anyone - and especially Hixon - is saying he’s the GOAT of D3 coaches, Dave.   But he’s certainly on Mt. Rushmore!

So who's on Mt. Rushmore? We talk total wins, but should we also talk winning %? I mean, Brett Favre was at the top for a long time for TD passes, but also was at the top (still?) in interceptions? Do you take someone else with a better TD:INT ratio or the guy with the most of something...sometimes simply because of longevity.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 25, 2020, 06:26:39 pm
I mean Bo Ryan has to be the GOAT.  Four titles in 15 years.  A better than 90 percent winning percentage for an entire decade.  The best D team in D3 history.  Most successful D3 coaching alum.   He has to be the first choice.  Hixon, Djurikovich, Robinson, Moore, M. Edwards all good candidate for next three spots.  Hixon is a lock I’d say.

Dennie Bridges coached 36 years at Illinois Wesleyan from 1965 to 2001.  He was 667-319 (.676) in a different era when IWU regularly played 4-5 D1/D2 teams per year for many seasons.  In the CCIW, his record was a pretty crazy 421-129 (.765) with 17 CCIW titles (in 36 years).

IWU moved from NAIA to D3 in 1983-84.  Bridges' record in his 18 D3 seasons:
* Overall: 357-146 (.710)
* CCIW Record: 213-57 (.789)
* CCIW Titles: 9
* NCAA Tourney Appearances: 14
* NCAA Tourney Record: 30-13 (.698)
* NCAA Tourney Advancement: 9 Sweet 16; 6 Elite 8; 3 Final Fours
* 1 National Championship

Bosko Djurickoivic is listed above - great coach.  For context, Bridges had 30 NCAA tourney wins in 18 D3 seasons -- Djurickvoic has 19 in 35 D3 seasons.  Bridges won 17 CCIW titles in 36 seasons (9 in 18 D3 seasons); Bosko has 7 CCIW titles in 35 seasons. 

Mark Edwards, another elite D3 coach, won 33 NCAA tourney games in 37 D3 seasons; Bridges won 30 NCAA tourney games in 18 D3 seasons.

If those two are on the list, I would think Bridges has to be?

Not sure in the big picture how this all sorts out, but Dennie is somewhere on the short list.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 25, 2020, 06:27:22 pm
I think postseason records are nice, but there is more to a resume than just the post season. I was working on an unexpected project of late and was diving into some women's coaching resumes. I actually ended up removing a few when I dove deeper. As great as the snapshots seemed to indicate, when you saw the regular season numbers it was rather interesting.

I think a coach who shows consistency - especially very few if any losing seasons - with a strong winning percentage plus got it done in the postseason (where they visited consistently as well) would be the ones in consideration.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on April 25, 2020, 06:33:36 pm
From Bo Ryan's old bio on Wisconsin's site...

It was during his 15-year tenure at UW-Platteville (1984-99) that Ryan firmly established himself as one of the country's top coaches. He guided the Division III school to a phenomenal 353-76 (.822) overall record and, in his final 12 seasons, the Pioneers:
• Won four national championships (1991, 1995, 1998 and 1999)
• Compiled a 314-37 (.895) record
• Won eight WIAC titles
• Were the winningest NCAA men's basketball team of the 1990s (all divisions) with a 266-26 (.908) record
• Compiled a 30-5 NCAA Division III tournament mark
• Never won fewer than 23 games
• Compiled a 157-7 (.957) home record
• Set the all-time single-season Division III scoring defense mark (47.5 ppg) in 1996-97
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on April 26, 2020, 09:44:42 am
As quoted above by Greek from the NESCAC board, some notes about IWU's Dennie Bridges.


Dennie Bridges coached 36 years at Illinois Wesleyan from 1965 to 2001.  He was 667-319 (.676) in a different era when IWU regularly played 4-5 D1/D2 teams per year for many seasons.  In the CCIW, his record was a pretty crazy 421-129 (.765) with 17 CCIW titles (in 36 years).

IWU moved from NAIA to D3 in 1983-84.  Bridges' record in his 18 D3 seasons:
* Overall: 357-146 (.710)
* CCIW Record: 213-57 (.789)
* CCIW Titles: 9
* NCAA Tourney Appearances: 14
* NCAA Tourney Record: 30-13 (.698)
* NCAA Tourney Advancement: 9 Sweet 16; 6 Elite 8; 3 Final Fours
* 1 National Championship


Whatever the criteria ends up being, Dennie is certainly in the conversation.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: nescac1 on April 26, 2020, 10:05:01 am
Yeah, Bridges definitely belongs, just wasn’t familiar with his resume (among plenty of others I’m sure).  I see Ryan and Hixon (in that order) as the two locks.  Seems to be 2-3 CCIW coaches in contention, I’ll leave it to CCIW folks to sort them out.  There was also mention in the Nescac board of the Scranton coach Bob Bessoir. 
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on April 26, 2020, 10:08:05 am
Yeah, Bridges definitely belongs, just wasn’t familiar with his resume (among plenty of others I’m sure).  I see Ryan and Hixon (in that order) as the two locks.  Seems to be 2-3 CCIW coaches in contention, I’ll leave it to CCIW folks to sort them out.  There was also mention in the Nescac board of the Scranton coach Bob Bessoir.
I don't think any other CCIW coach has a resume close to that of Bridges (for this conversation) at this point.  Bosko Djurickovic won 2 national titles and has a wonderful resume, but in this conversation, Dennie Bridges has a much stronger case.

I'd have to look at Dan McCarrell's (North Park) complete resume - he obviously won 3 national titles.  I am not as familiar with the full resume there vs Bridges.

Grey Giovanine at Augustana can get into the conversation in time.  He has been amazing at Augie.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: nescac1 on April 26, 2020, 10:13:44 am
The overall coaching resume of the Ephs’ Dave Paulsen is among the most impressive, certainly, but he just didn’t spend enough time in D3 (eight years at Williams, three at St. Lawrence).  In his eight years at Williams, three league titles, an NCAA championship, and a second place finish, plus two national COY awards, and he also had strong success at St. Lawrence (two NCAA appearances and two league COY awards).  But he’s spent most of his career at the D1 and D2 level. 
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on April 26, 2020, 10:22:56 am
Wooster's Steve Moore (just retired) would have to be right in the middle of this convo.  Seems like he has to be in the top 4?

https://www.woosterathletics.com/sports/mbkb/coaches/MOORE_STEVE?view=bio
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on April 26, 2020, 11:32:15 am
This might be a good template to have for each candidate...

Name (School)
* # of Seasons as D3 Head Coach: (these are the only seasons that should count below)

* Overall Record:

* Conference Record:

* Conference Regular Season Titles:

* NCAA D3 Tournament Appearances:

* NCAA D3 Tournament Record:

* NCAA D3 Sweet 16:

* NCAA D3 Final 4:

* NCAA D3 National Title:


Those seem like relevant data points to the conversation.

From there people can decide their own personal weighting and how the candidates stack up.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on April 26, 2020, 11:40:48 am
Dennie Bridges (Illinois Wesleyan)
* # of Seasons as D3 Head Coach: 18 (1983-84 to 2000-01)

* Overall Record: 357-146 (.710)

* Conference Record: 213-57 (.789)

* Conference Regular Season Titles: 9 (.500) '84, '86, '88, '91, '92, '94, '95, '97, '98

* NCAA D3 Tournament Appearances: 14 (.778) '84, '86, '87, '88, '90, '91, '92, '94, '95, '96, '97, '98, '99, '01

* NCAA D3 Tournament Record: 30-13 (.698)

* NCAA D3 Sweet 16: 10 (.556)  '86, '88, '90, '92, '94, '95, '96, '97, '98, '01

* NCAA D3 Final 4: 3 '96, '97, '01

* NCAA D3 National Title: 1 '97

(18 years as NAIA head coach not included above)
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: ronk on April 26, 2020, 12:58:59 pm
Bob Bessoir(Scranton)

* # of Seasons as D3 Head Coach: 27(1974-2001)  (these are the only seasons that should count below)

* Overall Record: 535-229(.700)

* Conference Record: 276-88 (.758)

* Conference Regular Season Titles: 14 (.519)  '75,'78,'80-'86,'88,'89,'92,'93

* NCAA D3 Tournament Appearances: 18 (.667)   '75-'78,'80-'88,'91-'93,'98,2000

* NCAA D3 Tournament Record: 31-18 (.633)

* NCAA D3 Sweet 16: 5   '76,'77,'83,'88,'93

* NCAA D3 Final 4: 4   '76,'77,'83,'88

* NCAA D3 National Title: 2   "76,'83

2 years before D3 formation(1972-74) not included above

edited to include non-D3 games in overall record
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on April 26, 2020, 01:45:14 pm
Ronk, let’s not exclude the non D3 games from the overall record. It’s too hard to ask everyone to go back and find those to pull out. Can you add those back in?

Let’s just exclude seasons when the coach’s team was not D3.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 26, 2020, 02:10:48 pm
Probably not in the convo, but still pretty good.

Bob Semling (Stevens Point)

# of seasons: 15 

Overall Record: 316-100 .759

Conference Record: 167-50 .769

Conference Regular Season Titles: 6 .400

NCAA Appearances: 10 .667

NCAA Record: 22-8  .733 '07 (1-1), 08 (1-1), 09 (1-1), 10 (6-0), 11 (2-1), 12 (0-1) 13 (1-1), 14 (2-1), 15 (6-0), 18 (2-1)

NCAA Sweet 16: 3

NCAA Final 4: 2

NCAA D3 Titles: 2  '10, '15

The WIAC titles are down, but conference foes Whitewater (2) and Oshkosh (1) have also won National Titles.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: sac on April 26, 2020, 02:14:43 pm
Glenn Robinson   -  Franklin & Marshall
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: sac on April 26, 2020, 02:15:32 pm
Mark Edwards  -  WashU
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: thebear on April 26, 2020, 02:57:20 pm
John G. "Jerry" Welsh - (Ithaca '58)
Potsdam State/SUNY Potsdam

* # of Seasons as D3 Head Coach: 17 (1974-75 to 1990-91)

* Overall Record: 375-104 .783 (Canadian University games not included)

* Conference Record: 156-30 .839

* Conference Regular Season Titles: 13

* Conference Tournament Titles: 7

* NCAA D3 Tournament Record: 33-10 (.767)

* NCAA D3 Sweet 16: (9) '79, '80, '81, '82, '83, '85, '86 '87, '89

* NCAA D3 Final 4: (5) '79, '81, '82, '85, '86

* NCAA D3 National Title: 2 '81 '86(First Undefeated Team 32-0)

60 Game Win Streak 1985-1987.

From 1979-80 to 1988-89 Overall Record was 253-44 .852.

(5 years as NCAA College Division head coach 1968-69 & 1970-74 not included).
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on April 26, 2020, 03:23:21 pm
John G. "Jerry" Welsh - (Ithaca '58)
Potsdam State/SUNY Potsdam

* # of Seasons as D3 Head Coach: 17 (1974-75 to 1990-91)

* Overall Record: 375-104 .783 (Canadian University games not included)

* Conference Record: 156-30 .839

* Conference Regular Season Titles: 13

* Conference Tournament Titles: 7

* NCAA D3 Tournament Record: 33-10 (.767)

* NCAA D3 Sweet 16: (9) '79, '80, '81, '82, '83, '85, '86 '87, '89

* NCAA D3 Final 4: (5) '79, '81, '82, '85, '86

* NCAA D3 National Title: 2 '81 '86(First Undefeated Team 32-0)

60 Game Win Streak 1985-1987.

From 1979-80 to 1988-89 Overall Record was 253-44 .852.

(5 years as NCAA College Division head coach 1968-69 & 1970-74 not included).
That is a pretty darn strong resume!
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on April 26, 2020, 03:23:55 pm
Bob Bessoir(Scranton)

* # of Seasons as D3 Head Coach: 27(1974-2001)  (these are the only seasons that should count below)

* Overall Record: 535-229(.700)

* Conference Record: 276-88 (.758)

* Conference Regular Season Titles: 14 (.519)  '75,'78,'80-'86,'88,'89,'92,'93

* NCAA D3 Tournament Appearances: 18 (.667)   '75-'78,'80-'88,'91-'93,'98,2000

* NCAA D3 Tournament Record: 31-18 (.633)

* NCAA D3 Sweet 16: 5   '76,'77,'83,'88,'93

* NCAA D3 Final 4: 4   '76,'77,'83,'88

* NCAA D3 National Title: 2   "76,'83

2 years before D3 formation(1972-74) not included above

edited to include non-D3 games in overall record
Another big-time resume.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 26, 2020, 05:45:26 pm
Glenn Robinson   -  Franklin & Marshall

Mark Edwards  -  WashU

Come on sac, do the homework. LOL
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: WUPHF on April 27, 2020, 12:34:54 am
Mark Edwards

37 seasons

685 wins
685-293 (.700)

34 straight winning seasons

21 NCAA tournaments

15 UAA championships, 10-time conference coach of the year

One notable characteristic of his career is that he had to build a program entirely from scratch as Washington University had dropped the program a decade prior to his start.  His first team went just 3-16 including losses to Concordia, a seminary down the street, and Logan, a chiropractor school down Highway 40.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on April 27, 2020, 10:33:50 am
Yeah, Bridges definitely belongs, just wasn’t familiar with his resume (among plenty of others I’m sure).  I see Ryan and Hixon (in that order) as the two locks.  Seems to be 2-3 CCIW coaches in contention, I’ll leave it to CCIW folks to sort them out.  There was also mention in the Nescac board of the Scranton coach Bob Bessoir.
I don't think any other CCIW coach has a resume close to that of Bridges (for this conversation) at this point.  Bosko Djurickovic won 2 national titles and has a wonderful resume, but in this conversation, Dennie Bridges has a much stronger case.

I'd have to look at Dan McCarrell's (North Park) complete resume - he obviously won 3 national titles.  I am not as familiar with the full resume there vs Bridges.

Grey Giovanine at Augustana can get into the conversation in time.  He has been amazing at Augie.

Bosko Djurickovic not only won two national championships as North Park's head coach, he was also the primary assistant coach under Dan McCarrell for North Park's first three national championships. He is therefore the only individual in D3 men's basketball history to own five national championship rings.

He's also one of only two head coaches who have taken two different programs to the Final Four: North Park in 1985 and 1987, and Carthage in 2001. (North Central's Todd Raridon, who coached Nebraska Wesleyan as well as NCC to the Final Four, is the other.)
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: CNU85 on April 27, 2020, 11:14:35 am
Coming into the 2019-2020 season, CNU was the 6th winningest program on record (.676) and was 23-6 in the past season that ended abruptly. So I looked at the current coach and the guy right before him which makes up 36 of the 53 years of the program. Here's what I got:

Current Coach - John Krikorian (13 total seasons including HC stint at USMMA - 10 at CNU)
Record - 298-101 (.747)
Conference record - 162-46 (.778)
Conf Tittles - 8
Tourney Appearances - 8
Tourney record - 15-7
Sweet 16 - 1
Final 4 - 2
National Title - 0

National Coach of The Year - 1

CJ Woollum - 26 years
Record 502-221 (.694)
Conf Record 230-88 (.723)
Conf Titles - 12
D3 tourney appearances - 17
Tourney Record - 10-18 (I'm shaky on this one...history is not great back to mid 80's)
Sweet 16 - 4 and 1 Elite 8
Final 4 - 0
National Titles - 0

Had a player drafted 43rd overall in NBA draft (2nd round). Highest D3 draft pick on record.
Only 1 losing season in 26 years - and that was first year at the helm and finished 13-14

Anyway - maybe not Mt Rushmore level, but interesting stuff.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Flying Dutch Fan on April 27, 2020, 01:03:22 pm
Glenn Van Wieren
Hope College

* # of Seasons as D3 Head Coach: 33 (1977 - 2010)

* Overall Record: 660-219 .751

* Conference Record: 368-106 .776

* Conference Regular Season Titles: 17

* Conference Tournament Titles: 9

* NCAA D3 Tournament Record: 26-23 (.531)

* NCAA D3 Sweet 16: (6) '96, '97, '98, '06, '07, '08

* NCAA D3 Final 4: (3) '96, '98, '06


First 2 seasons finished 4th (11-10 overall) and 7th (5-17 overall) in the league.  Next 31 seasons was either 1st or 2nd 27 seasons (4 times finishing 3rd).  Probably doesn't get him on Rushmore, but he's certainly worth putting in the discussion
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: gordonmann on April 27, 2020, 04:42:10 pm
Fun topic!

Mount Rushmore has very few spots. I think you'd have to limit it to someone who:

(a) Spent most of their career at the Division III level. Coaches who won a lot of games at the NAIA or Division I/II level wouldn't count unless their D3 careers alone qualify them (so maybe Bo Ryan still makes it)
(b) Won a Division III title as a head coach. At least one.
(c) Reached the Division III national semifinals more than once. Not sure if the minimum would be two or three, but more than one definitely.
(c) Won more than X games with X being north of 600 wins. Let's say 700?
(d) Has won at least X conference titles. Let's say at least five titles

Who makes the cut based on that?
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on April 27, 2020, 06:13:59 pm
Sorry, Gordon, but I disagree.

I don't think you can leave someone who won three national championships off of the list.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 28, 2020, 12:33:39 am
I'm not sure how big of a deal getting to the Sweet 16 really is. I mean, in past years you could get to the 2nd weekend (3rd round) with one win.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: CNU85 on April 28, 2020, 07:49:31 am
In a time when everyone is living by additional and restrictive rules, someone jumps in to the fun with a set of more rules! Geez Gordon! (hahaha - just busting your chops in a fun way!)

Cheers mate!

Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on April 28, 2020, 09:56:28 am

I imagine one's age has a lot to do with whether they consider Bo Ryan a D1 or a D3 coach.  Fifteen years is not a cup of coffee; I think he deserves to be considered, although certainly another 15 or so years in D1 is a negative for the case.

Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on April 28, 2020, 10:26:56 am
I'm not sure how big of a deal getting to the Sweet 16 really is. I mean, in past years you could get to the 2nd weekend (3rd round) with one win.

That only happened three times back in the '70s:

* In the inaugural D3 tourney in 1975, Hamline and Doane received byes in the first round. Hamline beat Doane in the second round, 48-47, to advance to the second weekend -- and in the subsequent round the Pipers were promptly beaten by Augustana, 48-42. Augie finished in third place.

* In the 1977 tourney, Nebraska Wesleyan and Bishop received opening-round byes. NWU topped Bishop in the second round, 84-83, to advance to the second weekend -- and in the subsequent round the Plainsmen (that's what they were called back then, prior to their name change to the more inclusive "Prairie Wolves") were whipped soundly by Hamline, 82-60. Hamline finished in fourth place.

* In the 1978 tourney, Humboldt State and Ashland received opening-round byes. Humboldt State nipped Ashland, 69-68, to advance to the second weekend -- and in the subsequent round, playing on their home floor in Arcata, CA, the Lumberjacks were edged in overtime by North Park, 79-76. North Park went on to win its first national championship.

Three times in 46 years is not really significant.

Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on April 28, 2020, 10:41:30 am
I'm not sure how big of a deal getting to the Sweet 16 really is. I mean, in past years you could get to the 2nd weekend (3rd round) with one win.

I think it is a pretty significant consideration.  Seems to me the top programs, historically, are the ones that have shown up in that second weekend a bunch of times.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on April 28, 2020, 10:46:06 am
From Bo Ryan's old bio on Wisconsin's site...

It was during his 15-year tenure at UW-Platteville (1984-99) that Ryan firmly established himself as one of the country's top coaches. He guided the Division III school to a phenomenal 353-76 (.822) overall record and, in his final 12 seasons, the Pioneers:
• Won four national championships (1991, 1995, 1998 and 1999)
• Compiled a 314-37 (.895) record
• Won eight WIAC titles
• Were the winningest NCAA men's basketball team of the 1990s (all divisions) with a 266-26 (.908) record
• Compiled a 30-5 NCAA Division III tournament mark
• Never won fewer than 23 games
• Compiled a 157-7 (.957) home record
• Set the all-time single-season Division III scoring defense mark (47.5 ppg) in 1996-97


To me, Bo Ryan is lock for the D3 MBB Mount Rushmore. 

15 years as a D3 head coach seems like plenty of time for consideration.  Then once you look at the results...wow.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on April 28, 2020, 10:51:26 am
Here is a key consideration for this -- is it a requirement to have won a national championship?

If so, that would rule out Steve Moore (Wooster)...and that would probably be a pretty controversial thing to do. 
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on April 28, 2020, 11:12:29 am
Glenn Robinson (F&M) would be an even bigger omit, if that's your concern, because his Diplomats got to the Final Four five times without winning it, while Moore's Scots got there three times.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: thebear on April 28, 2020, 11:26:03 am
FWIW, Here are the D-3 Coaches who have won multiple national championships as head coaches
Ryan, Bo - Wisconsin Platteville (4)
McCarell, Dan - North Park (3)

And in chronological order of their 2nd win
Bessoir, Bob - Scranton (2)
Welsh, Jerry - SUNY Potsdam (2)
Djurikovic, Bosko - North Park (2)
Vander Meulen, Dave - Wisconsin-Whitewater (2)
Bennett, Jack - Wisconsin-Stevens Point (2)
Edwards, Mark - Washington - StL (2)
Hixson, Dave - Amherst (2)
Miller. Pat - Wisconsin- Whitewater (2)
Semling, Bob - Wisconsin Stevens Point (2)

Mt.Rushmore probably has to start from this list.

With all due respect to gaudy win totals, grabbing the brass ring is pretty important.


Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: ronk on April 28, 2020, 11:32:44 am
 And, as an unique aside, Scranton's Mike Strong has 2 championship rings also - as an assistant on the men's side('76) and his own title on the women's side('85).
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: thebear on April 28, 2020, 11:47:48 am
Several of these coaches has rings as asst's, I just listed head coaches.  I've carried a clipboard for one of them.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on April 28, 2020, 11:59:34 am
Glenn Robinson (F&M) would be an even bigger omit, if that's your concern, because his Diplomats got to the Final Four five times without winning it, while Moore's Scots got there three times.
Definitely.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: SpringSt7 on April 28, 2020, 12:12:37 pm
FWIW, Here are the D-3 Coaches who have won multiple national championships as head coaches
Ryan, Bo - Wisconsin Platteville (4)
McCarell, Dan - North Park (3)

And in chronological order of their 2nd win
Bessoir, Bob - Scranton (2)
Welsh, Jerry - SUNY Potsdam (2)
Djurikovic, Bosko - North Park (2)
Vander Meulen, Dave - Wisconsin-Whitewater (2)
Bennett, Jack - Wisconsin-Stevens Point (2)
Edwards, Mark - Washington - StL (2)
Hixson, Dave - Amherst (2)
Miller. Pat - Wisconsin- Whitewater (2)
Semling, Bob - Wisconsin Stevens Point (2)

Mt.Rushmore probably has to start from this list.

With all due respect to gaudy win totals, grabbing the brass ring is pretty important.

Agreed on all counts here---like someone already said, there's only 4 spots on Mount Rushmore! A lot of deserving candidates that are going to be left off, that's just part of the exercise. Hard to pick anyone without a ring (let alone two rings) and have them jump anybody on this list.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 28, 2020, 12:42:24 pm
I do think championships in this sport are important. Unlike the NFL where Eli Manning has two rings and Brett Favre has one, no one is ever going to say Manning is better than Favre. Coaching is obviously a different animal too. So, total wins is big, but do you take someone with 600+ wins and no doorsteps over someone with a lot less wins and 1 or 2 National Championships?
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: ronk on April 28, 2020, 12:44:24 pm
Several of these coaches has rings as asst's, I just listed head coaches.  I've carried a clipboard for one of them.

 Unique in the sense of both genders.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on April 28, 2020, 01:04:52 pm
Agreed on all counts here---like someone already said, there's only 4 spots on Mount Rushmore! A lot of deserving candidates that are going to be left off, that's just part of the exercise. Hard to pick anyone without a ring (let alone two rings) and have them jump anybody on this list.

I do think championships in this sport are important. Unlike the NFL where Eli Manning has two rings and Brett Favre has one, no one is ever going to say Manning is better than Favre. Coaching is obviously a different animal too. So, total wins is big, but do you take someone with 600+ wins and no doorsteps over someone with a lot less wins and 1 or 2 National Championships?
So...

Bosko Djurickovic
* 552-315 (.637)
* 7 CCIW titles in 33 seasons at NPU/Carthage
* .614 CCIW WP
* 3 Final Fours, 2 titles

Steve Moore
* 846-245 (.775)
* 18 NCAC titles in 32 seasons at Wooster
* .808 NCAC WP
* 3 Final Fours, no titles


Are we saying Bosko has the better Mount Rushmore resume because he won 2 national titles?  I guess I just don't buy that.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Flying Dutch Fan on April 28, 2020, 01:56:42 pm
Agreed on all counts here---like someone already said, there's only 4 spots on Mount Rushmore! A lot of deserving candidates that are going to be left off, that's just part of the exercise. Hard to pick anyone without a ring (let alone two rings) and have them jump anybody on this list.

I do think championships in this sport are important. Unlike the NFL where Eli Manning has two rings and Brett Favre has one, no one is ever going to say Manning is better than Favre. Coaching is obviously a different animal too. So, total wins is big, but do you take someone with 600+ wins and no doorsteps over someone with a lot less wins and 1 or 2 National Championships?
So...

Bosko Djurickovic
* 552-315 (.637)
* 7 CCIW titles in 33 seasons at NPU/Carthage
* .614 CCIW WP
* 3 Final Fours, 2 titles

Steve Moore
* 846-245 (.775)
* 18 NCAC titles in 32 seasons at Wooster
* .808 NCAC WP
* 3 Final Fours, no titles


Are we saying Bosko has the better Mount Rushmore resume because he won 2 national titles?  I guess I just don't buy that.

And while not quite to Steve Moore level, I'd put Glenn Van Wieren in the mix as well in this discussion (I know I'm a bit biased, but the numbers say it IMHO):

Glenn Van Wieren
* 660-219 (.751)
* 17 MIAA titles in 33 seasons at Hope
* .776 MIAA WP
* 3 Final Fours, no titles
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: gordonmann on April 28, 2020, 02:31:51 pm
Quote
I don't think you can leave someone who won three national championships off of the list.

That's in reference to McCarrell, I presume? He's a tough case because he coached at the beginning of the D3 era and then moved on.

For me personally longevity is less important than excellence over a period but, to me, that period should be more than a couple of years. Is the right number 10 years or less? I don't know.

Longevity can be the product of a lot of things, some of them more based on circumstance than anything else. This isn't in reference to Moore or Robinson, but I've seen coaches at the women's level roll up wins when they clearly were not the lead coach any more.

Again, this is totally my own made-up process that you can totally disregard (that's why this is fun), but I personally would set some kind of criteria, see who meets it and then see if you can argue why one or two people on the Mount should come off in favor of someone else who doesn't meet the criteria. You can't fill four spots by first coming up with a list of 10 guys ought to be on the mountain unless you have another mountain to spare. :)

And, yes, I'd argue that if there's one spot left on the Mountain, it goes to Bosko over Moore, given what he has accomplished at multiple schools including the role he played at North Park, which is arguably Division III's greatest dynasty (and Greg Sager didn't even pay me to say that).

The tougher question would be something like -- There's one spot for Bosko or McCarrell. Who gets it? Or there's one spot for Bennett or Semling. Who gets it?  I thought the answer to that second question was Bennett given that his name (and his brother's) is on the court, but Semling now has more wins.

There are no objectively right answers, which is what makes this fun.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 28, 2020, 02:58:43 pm
Agreed on all counts here---like someone already said, there's only 4 spots on Mount Rushmore! A lot of deserving candidates that are going to be left off, that's just part of the exercise. Hard to pick anyone without a ring (let alone two rings) and have them jump anybody on this list.

I do think championships in this sport are important. Unlike the NFL where Eli Manning has two rings and Brett Favre has one, no one is ever going to say Manning is better than Favre. Coaching is obviously a different animal too. So, total wins is big, but do you take someone with 600+ wins and no doorsteps over someone with a lot less wins and 1 or 2 National Championships?
So...

Bosko Djurickovic
* 552-315 (.637)
* 7 CCIW titles in 33 seasons at NPU/Carthage
* .614 CCIW WP
* 3 Final Fours, 2 titles

Steve Moore
* 846-245 (.775)
* 18 NCAC titles in 32 seasons at Wooster
* .808 NCAC WP
* 3 Final Fours, no titles


Are we saying Bosko has the better Mount Rushmore resume because he won 2 national titles?  I guess I just don't buy that.


I'm not saying I'm buying it either. I think measuring championships in this particular instance is more important than in the NFL, as I mentioned, no one is going to think Eli Manning is better than Favre because he has more Super Bowl wins. But, I'm not discounting total wins. I then asked, "do you take wins over championships?" I asked, I didn't answer.

This is all very subjective, obviously. I mean, we're including conference championships here too. Some conferences have multiple teams (3, sometimes 4) that have made the Final Four and/or won national championships. Do we take that into account against other coaches who are in conferences that only have possibly TWO dominant teams in the conference?

Another thing to consider isn't just the number of wins. I think winning % is more important. And as gordonmann stated, Semling has more wins now, but he's also been there longer.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on April 28, 2020, 03:31:50 pm
And, yes, I'd argue that if there's one spot left on the Mountain, it goes to Bosko over Moore, given what he has accomplished at multiple schools including the role he played at North Park, which is arguably Division III's greatest dynasty (and Greg Sager didn't even pay me to say that).
Bosko has been at Carthage the last 24 seasons.  He is 190-154 (.552) in CCIW play.  Carthage has not played in an NCAA tournament game the last 10 seasons.  The Red Men have 2 NCAA tourney wins in the last 18 years.

I personally don't see how he would be behind Steve Moore in this little discussion...but as you say, it is completely subjective so I guess we will all see the list differently.  I guess I just see the Mount Rushmore being coaches that were consistently in the mix (conference and nationally) for a long period of time.

I think it's possible to be on the Mount Rushmore, and then play your way off.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: gordonmann on April 28, 2020, 04:15:08 pm
That's fair, regarding someone playing themselves off the Mount. This is even more subjective but winning in the NCAC is easier than winning in the CCIW, right? What if the argument was Grey Giovanine versus Steve Moore?
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on April 28, 2020, 04:26:49 pm
Agreed on all counts here---like someone already said, there's only 4 spots on Mount Rushmore! A lot of deserving candidates that are going to be left off, that's just part of the exercise. Hard to pick anyone without a ring (let alone two rings) and have them jump anybody on this list.

I do think championships in this sport are important. Unlike the NFL where Eli Manning has two rings and Brett Favre has one, no one is ever going to say Manning is better than Favre. Coaching is obviously a different animal too. So, total wins is big, but do you take someone with 600+ wins and no doorsteps over someone with a lot less wins and 1 or 2 National Championships?
So...

Bosko Djurickovic
* 552-315 (.637)
* 7 CCIW titles in 33 seasons at NPU/Carthage
* .614 CCIW WP
* 3 Final Fours, 2 titles

Steve Moore
* 846-245 (.775)
* 18 NCAC titles in 32 seasons at Wooster
* .808 NCAC WP
* 3 Final Fours, no titles


Are we saying Bosko has the better Mount Rushmore resume because he won 2 national titles?  I guess I just don't buy that.

Bosko also took two different schools to the Final Four -- he and Todd Raridon are the only two coaches who've ever done that. And the CCIW and NCAC are of absolutely no comparison whatsoever in terms of their competitiveness. The CCIW is renowned for its constant churn, and has been for decades, whereas, until the recent past, the NCAC was perennially a two-team league. Every season it was the same deal, with Wooster and Wittenberg duking it out, comparatively mediocre Ohio Wesleyan (and sometimes Wabash) holding their coats, and everybody else languishing in the cupcake category.

Steve Moore was a great coach; of that there is no dispute. But every coach mentioned in this thread so far should be so lucky as to have two games per year against each of the Oberlin, Kenyon, Hiram, Denison, etc., teams that littered the NCAC for so many seasons.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on April 28, 2020, 04:29:22 pm
And, yes, I'd argue that if there's one spot left on the Mountain, it goes to Bosko over Moore, given what he has accomplished at multiple schools including the role he played at North Park, which is arguably Division III's greatest dynasty (and Greg Sager didn't even pay me to say that).

Do you take Venmo, Gordon? :D
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on April 28, 2020, 04:41:08 pm
And the CCIW and NCAC are of absolutely no comparison whatsoever in terms of their competitiveness. The CCIW is renowned for its constant churn, and has been for decades, whereas, until the recent past, the NCAC was perennially a two-team league. Every season it was the same deal, with Wooster and Wittenberg duking it out, comparatively mediocre Ohio Wesleyan (and sometimes Wabash) holding their coats, and everybody else languishing in the cupcake category.

Steve Moore was a great coach; of that there is no dispute. But every coach mentioned in this thread so far should be so lucky as to have two games per year against each of the Oberlin, Kenyon, Hiram, Denison, etc., teams that littered the NCAC for so many seasons.
Agree...the CCIW is much, much tougher than that NCAC.

And the historic/consistent strength of the CCIW is why, I believe, Dennie Bridges also has to be very much part of this conversation.

Dennie Bridges (Illinois Wesleyan)
* # of Seasons as D3 Head Coach: 18 (1983-84 to 2000-01)

* Overall Record: 357-146 (.710)

* Conference Record: 213-57 (.789)

* Conference Regular Season Titles: 9 (.500) '84, '86, '88, '91, '92, '94, '95, '97, '98

* NCAA D3 Tournament Appearances: 14 (.778) '84, '86, '87, '88, '90, '91, '92, '94, '95, '96, '97, '98, '99, '01

* NCAA D3 Tournament Record: 30-13 (.698)

* NCAA D3 Sweet 16: 10 (.556)  '86, '88, '90, '92, '94, '95, '96, '97, '98, '01

* NCAA D3 Final 4: 3 '96, '97, '01

* NCAA D3 National Title: 1 '97

(18 years as NAIA head coach not included above)



Bosko is .614 in the CCIW...Dennie was .789.  Dennie was outstanding for that entire D3 portion of his career.  I feel like Bosko has really fallen off.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on April 28, 2020, 04:57:58 pm
That's fair, regarding someone playing themselves off the Mount. This is even more subjective but winning in the NCAC is easier than winning in the CCIW, right? What if the argument was Grey Giovanine versus Steve Moore?

For now, Dennie Bridges (18 D3 seasons) has a stronger resume for this than Grey Giovanine (21 D3 seasons).  Grey is certainly knocking on the door.

Dennie vs Steve Moore is an interesting one.  Seems like fairly similar type success...but Steve Moore had many more D3 seasons.  So I don't know how one evaluates 18 D3 years vs 38.  Dennie has the same # of Final Fours (3)...but Dennie has a title.

Bridges and Moore are certainly two of the best D3 coaches of all time.  How they fit into the Mount Rushmore, I am not sure yet.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on April 28, 2020, 05:11:46 pm
But, again, Bosko's got five national championship rings -- a feat that nobody else can claim, including Bo Ryan -- and two of them came as head coach. And he's taken two different programs to the Final Four. Bridges didn't do either of those things.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on April 28, 2020, 05:16:36 pm
(The rest of you reading this back-and-forth should be aware that Bob and I have had various iterations of this argument on numerous occasions over the past twenty years on CCIW Chat. It won't be resolved on this occasion, either. ;) And now, back to your regularly scheduled program.)
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on April 28, 2020, 05:27:52 pm
But, again, Bosko's got five national championship rings -- a feat that nobody else can claim, including Bo Ryan -- and two of them came as head coach. And he's taken two different programs to the Final Four. Bridges didn't do either of those things.

He has two, Greg.  No one here is going to count championships as an assistant coach.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on April 28, 2020, 05:28:16 pm
(The rest of you reading this back-and-forth should be aware that Bob and I have had various iterations of this argument on numerous occasions over the past twenty years on CCIW Chat. It won't be resolved on this occasion, either. ;) And now, back to your regularly scheduled program.)
Correct.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on April 28, 2020, 06:18:04 pm
Dennie vs Bosko D3 numbers...

Dennie Bridges (Illinois Wesleyan)
* # of Seasons as D3 Head Coach: 18 (1983-84 to 2000-01)
* Overall Record: 357-146 (.710)
* Conference Record: 213-57 (.789)
* Conference Regular Season Titles: 9 (.500) '84, '86, '88, '91, '92, '94, '95, '97, '98
* NCAA D3 Tournament Appearances: 14 (.778) '84, '86, '87, '88, '90, '91, '92, '94, '95, '96, '97, '98, '99, '01
* NCAA D3 Tournament Record: 30-13 (.698)
* NCAA D3 Sweet 16: 10 (.556)  '86, '88, '90, '92, '94, '95, '96, '97, '98, '01
* NCAA D3 Final 4: 3 '96, '97, '01
* NCAA D3 National Title: 1 '97
(18 years as NAIA head coach not included above)


Bosko Djurickovic (North Park & Carthage)
* # of Seasons as D3 Head Coach: 34 (North Park 1984-85 to 1993-94; Carthage 1996-97 to present)
* Overall Record: 567-326 (.635)
* Conference Record: 305-196 (.609)
* Conference Regular Season Titles: 7 (.206)  '85, '87, '00, '02, '03, '10, '17
* NCAA D3 Tournament Appearances: 8 (.235) '85, '86, '87, '90, '00, '01, '02, '10
* NCAA D3 Tournament Record: 19-7 (.731)
* NCAA D3 Sweet 16: 5 (.147)  '85, '87, '01, '02, '10
* NCAA D3 Final 4: 3 '85, '87, '02
* NCAA D3 National Title: 2 '85, '87


Dennie vs Bosko D3 Head-to-Head
1984-85: Dennie 1-1; Bosko 1-1 (NPC national title)
1985-86: Dennie 1-1; Bosko 1-1
1986-87: Dennie 1-2; Bosko 2-1 (NPC national title)
1987-88: Dennie 1-1; Bosko 1-1
1988-89: Dennie 1-1; Bosko 1-1
1989-90: Dennie 2-1; Bosko 1-2
1990-91: Dennie 1-1, Bosko 1-1
1991-92: Dennie 2-0; Bosko 0-2
1992-93: Dennie 1-1; Bosko 1-1
1993-94: Dennie 1-1; Bosko 1-1
(Bosko at North Park Era: Dennie 12 wins; Bosko 10 wins)

1996-97: Dennie 2-0; Bosko 0-2 (IWU national title)
1997-98: Dennie 2-0; Bosko 0-2
1998-99: Dennie 2-0; Bosko 0-2
1999-00: Dennie 1-1; Bosko 1-1
2000-01: Dennie 1-1; Bosko 1-1
(Bosko at Carthage Era: Dennie 8 wins; Bosko 2 wins)

Total head-to-head: Dennie 20 wins; Bosko 12 wins.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on April 28, 2020, 06:50:20 pm
You may not want to regard Bosko's contribution to those three titles as North Park's full-time assistant coach as relevant, Bob, but I'll tell you one person who does: Dan McCarrell. "The Chief" would be the first person to state just how essential Bosko was to those first three Vikings national championships.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on April 28, 2020, 07:12:15 pm
You may not want to regard Bosko's contribution to those three titles as North Park's full-time assistant coach as relevant, Bob, but I'll tell you one person who does: Dan McCarrell. "The Chief" would be the first person to state just how essential Bosko was to those first three Vikings national championships.
I'm sure he played a huge role as NPC's assistant coach.  But in a discussion of best head coaches, is it really appropriate to bring in someone's record as an assistant coach?  I don't think that ever happens when debating best coaches in any sport across any level. 

Does Bo Ryan's UW-Platteville assistant coach get credit for 4 D3 national championships?
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: ronk on April 28, 2020, 07:20:17 pm
 Maybe we can pretend to be the national RAC and select 16 at-large nominations for GOAT coach, bracket them, have a single elimination competition until we come down to the Final Four. Dave could do his Hoopsville show with Ryan and Bob as we debate the 1-on-1s in the bracket.
 Let every one vote 1 thru 16 for the nominations like the weekly poll of teams, then the top 16 are seeded in the bracket.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on April 28, 2020, 07:27:08 pm
You may not want to regard Bosko's contribution to those three titles as North Park's full-time assistant coach as relevant, Bob, but I'll tell you one person who does: Dan McCarrell. "The Chief" would be the first person to state just how essential Bosko was to those first three Vikings national championships.
I'm sure he played a huge role as NPC's assistant coach.  But in a discussion of best head coaches, is it really appropriate to bring in someone's record as an assistant coach?  I don't think that ever happens when debating best coaches in any sport across any level. 

Does Bo Ryan's UW-Platteville assistant coach get credit for 4 D3 national championships?

Sure. Why not? Who's defining the parameters of the résumés being submitted here?

It's just one more point of subjectivity.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on April 28, 2020, 10:02:51 pm
Sure. Why not? Who's defining the parameters of the résumés being submitted here?

It's just one more point of subjectivity.

Secondary criteria maybe...like non-D3 W/L %.  Only to break an unbreakable tie.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: thebear on April 29, 2020, 10:29:03 am
Here's the complete list of D3 coaches who have won the Title.

Food for Thought

Winning Coach   #
Ryan, Bo   4
McCarrell, Dan   3
   
Bessoir, Bob   2
Welsh, Jerry   2
Djurickovic, Bosko   2
Vander Meulen, Dave   2
Bennett, Jack   2
Edwards, Mark   2
Hixon, David   2
Miller, Pat   2
Semling, Bob   2
   
Brennan, Steve   1
Bridges, Dennie   1
Campoli, Joe   1
Douma, Ed   1
Flannery, Pat   1
Fritz, Steve   1
Giannini, John   1
Hunter, Larry   1
Johnson, Jerry   1
Lewis, Matt   1
Lonergan, Mike   1
Macedo, Dave   1
Mahaffey, Gene   1
Neer, Mike   1
Paulsen, Dave   1
Petty, Mac   1
Reynolds, Dick   1
Tauer, John   1
Vande Streek, Kevin   1
Wellman, Dale   1

(edited for spelling by GS, because he's anal-retentive about such things)
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Smitty Oom on April 29, 2020, 01:16:50 pm
Well I will start us off by picking the 4 coaches I would vote for. This is with not too much thought besides reading the board and all of the wonderful applicants that have been brought forward.

1. Bo Ryan - Most all time national championships in D3, not much more needed to be said.
2. Dave Hixon - 2 national championships in 25 years of being able to participate in NCAA tourney, plus 800+ wins.
3. Mark Edwards - 650+ wins and 2 national championships.
4. Glenn Robinson - 900+ wins most all time in D3 and 5 final four appearances. Would have been a lock with just one national championship.


I know no one will agree with this list but thought I would put my thoughts out there. I would like a full list of Dan McCarrell stats, as 3 national championships is certainly quite impressive. Bosko, Bessoir and Moore would be on my Crazy Horse monument as of right now (Honorable Mention).

Grey Giovanne and Bob Semling are definitely on their way to outstanding resumes. By the time they retire they could very well be competing for a spot. I would include Tauer in that group but he would have to add a couple hundred wins and a national championship by the time they move to D1, which doesn't seem all too likely :(
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: thebear on April 29, 2020, 03:00:59 pm
Still working through my stuff, but Jerry Johnson, Le-Moyne Owen, probably needs to be on the Mount.  First D-3 national champion, & a runner up, still alive at 101 going on 102. One of the few coaches of color on this list. 46 years of college coaching. 821-447 career record.

Also - Wikipedia has this useful tool for all divisions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_college_men%27s_basketball_coaches_with_600_wins
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: SpringSt7 on April 29, 2020, 03:13:25 pm
Well I will start us off by picking the 4 coaches I would vote for. This is with not too much thought besides reading the board and all of the wonderful applicants that have been brought forward.

1. Bo Ryan - Most all time national championships in D3, not much more needed to be said.
2. Dave Hixon - 2 national championships in 25 years of being able to participate in NCAA tourney, plus 800+ wins.
3. Mark Edwards - 650+ wins and 2 national championships.
4. Glenn Robinson - 900+ wins most all time in D3 and 5 final four appearances. Would have been a lock with just one national championship.


I think when you look at these numbers and all the available stats, it's really tough to justify leaving any of Ryan/Hixon/Edwards off. I mean 4 national championships in just 15 years is staggering when you think about the Division III landscape, I don't think you really need to justify any sort of longevity argument when his peak was that good. Hixon and Edwards speak for themselves, to be that good for so long, plus Hixon's success in a relatively short period of NCAA postseason eligibility.

That leaves the last pick, which I think has to belong to someone in the midwest, leaving off the CCIW seems criminal when you consider how much history it has in D3, and I think I'd have to go Bosko Djurickovic for my last pick.

The recent record at Carthage maybe doesn't reflect all too well but when you look at the comprehensive levels of success, to do it at two different schools (2 Final Fours 15 years apart at different schools in the same league is pretty damn good), I just can't justify leaving a resume like that off over a Robinson or Moore who are trying to make the longevity argument when there are just too many other guys who have simply accomplished more. For me the way I try to look at it a little is this: which 4 coaching resumes would I want the most? The total wins and all are great, but you remember the championships and final fours and what not, so to have 4 guys who have seen the highest of the highs, that's why I would have them: Ryan, Hixon, Edwards, Djurickovic
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on April 29, 2020, 03:24:46 pm
Still working through my stuff, but Jerry Johnson, Le-Moyne Owen, probably needs to be on the Mount.  First D-3 national champion, & a runner up, still alive at 101 going on 102. One of the few coaches of color on this list. 46 years of college coaching. 821-447 career record.

Wow. I had no idea that Jerry Johnson was still alive. Thanks for passing that info along.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Ralph Turner on April 29, 2020, 05:33:04 pm
I'm not sure how big of a deal getting to the Sweet 16 really is. I mean, in past years you could get to the 2nd weekend (3rd round) with one win.
I recall it happening a few times in the early 2000's. The archives of the current D3hoops.com don't go back before the 2006-07 season.

I believe that Maryville may have done it 1-2 times.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Ralph Turner on April 29, 2020, 05:41:18 pm
2010 UT-Dallas got a first round bye, beat Wheaton IL in round 2, and then lost at UWSP eventual champion 64-57.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on April 29, 2020, 05:48:52 pm
Yes, I had forgotten about the bye period, after the tourney had been scaled back from 64 teams from 1998-2016.

To make up for it, I'll compile a list of all of the teams that used a bye to get to the second weekend after having won only one game.

Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Greek Tragedy on April 29, 2020, 07:48:59 pm
I'm not sure how big of a deal getting to the Sweet 16 really is. I mean, in past years you could get to the 2nd weekend (3rd round) with one win.
I recall it happening a few times in the early 2000's. The archives of the current D3hoops.com don't go back before the 2006-07 season.

I believe that Maryville may have done it 1-2 times.

https://www.d3hoops.com/archives/index-men

The "64-team" tournament that had byes in the 1st round started in 2006 with 5 byes (59 teams), 60 teams in 2009, 61 in 2010 and 2011, 62 from 2012-2015, 63 in 2016 and 64 since then.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Smitty Oom on April 29, 2020, 08:00:34 pm
Well I will start us off by picking the 4 coaches I would vote for. This is with not too much thought besides reading the board and all of the wonderful applicants that have been brought forward.

1. Bo Ryan - Most all time national championships in D3, not much more needed to be said.
2. Dave Hixon - 2 national championships in 25 years of being able to participate in NCAA tourney, plus 800+ wins.
3. Mark Edwards - 650+ wins and 2 national championships.
4. Glenn Robinson - 900+ wins most all time in D3 and 5 final four appearances. Would have been a lock with just one national championship.

I think when you look at these numbers and all the available stats, it's really tough to justify leaving any of Ryan/Hixon/Edwards off. I mean 4 national championships in just 15 years is staggering when you think about the Division III landscape, I don't think you really need to justify any sort of longevity argument when his peak was that good. Hixon and Edwards speak for themselves, to be that good for so long, plus Hixon's success in a relatively short period of NCAA postseason eligibility.

I agree with this. Obviously others will see it differently, but I had the hardest time choosing that fourth member. You made a good argument for Bosko.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on April 29, 2020, 08:27:51 pm
I'm not sure how big of a deal getting to the Sweet 16 really is. I mean, in past years you could get to the 2nd weekend (3rd round) with one win.
I recall it happening a few times in the early 2000's. The archives of the current D3hoops.com don't go back before the 2006-07 season.

I believe that Maryville may have done it 1-2 times.

https://www.d3hoops.com/archives/index-men

The "64-team" tournament that had byes in the 1st round started in 2006 with 5 byes (59 teams), 60 teams in 2009, 61 in 2010 and 2011, 62 from 2012-2015, 63 in 2016 and 64 since then.

The byes re-started in 1998 when the tourney was pared down from 64 teams to 48. Twelve teams per tourney had opening-round byes until the tourney expanded again in 2006.

Prior to the original 64-team brackets in the 1995-97 era of the tourney, there was a set-up that featured a 40-team bracket with a Tuesday-night play-in round added to what had been a 2-1-2 format since the tourney began in 1975. This form of the bracket was in place for only one tournament, 1989. In 1990 the 40-team bracket was re-formatted to get rid of the Tuesday-night play-in round by moving it to Friday night as part of what had always been known as the regionals (the first two rounds, playing on the first weekend), with another round added to the second weekend (which was dubbed the sectionals). This created the 2-2-2 format with which we're all familiar, but with 24 byes in the first round. The format's been 2-2-2 ever since, except for 2013, when the tourney was elongated to a 1-1-1-2-0-1 format in order to synchronize the three NCAA divisions so that they could all have their championships in Atlanta on the same weekend.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: kiko on April 29, 2020, 11:01:37 pm
I haven't been to this neighborhood in a bit and just found this thread.  But as soon as I found it I knew the Bosko vs Dennie debate would be running hot.  :)

First, here are results from every D3 tourney: https://d3hoops.com/archives/index-men (https://d3hoops.com/archives/index-men)

Second -- and I am a North Central guy for those who don't know me, and so don't have a dog in this fight beyond wondering why Benjy Taylor has not been discussed.  I don't think either Dennie or Bosko makes it to the elite four on Mount Rushmore, but IMO Dennie has the better case.  If Bosko's tenure had ended shortly after his second final four team, he'd have a stronger case.  But the last ten years have been:

2019-20 (15-11, 7-9 CCIW)
2018-19 (8-17, 3-13 CCIW)
2017-18 (13-12, 8-8 CCIW)
2016-17 (18-8, 11-5 CCIW)
2015-16 (10-15, 4-10 CCIW)
2014-15 (10-15, 5-9 CCIW)
2013-14 (16-10, 9-5 CCIW)
2012-13 (12-13, 7-7 CCIW)
2011-12 (12-13, 6-8 CCIW)
2010-11 (16-9, 9-5 CCIW)

That's sub-.500 as often as above .500, and to the point made earlier, the Red Men haven't really come close to the postseason in that era.  The two championships (not five -- two) as a head coach get him into the anteroom alongside a very select few coaches, but I can't overlook a decade of middling results when we are talking top-four over a 40-year era.  I would argue that in the past decade he has been at best the fourth-best coach *in his conference* -- and even that is arguable -- let alone overall all-time.

The 'did it at two schools' thing doesn't carry much weight with me (and the other guy to do so coaches my school) because it penalizes coaches who excelled year after year after year after year at one school, and there should be absolutely no penalty for that IMO.

And FWIW:
Ryan
Hixson
Edwards
Robinson

With Moore standing front-of-the-line among the half-dozen others who belong in the conversation.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: NEhoops on April 30, 2020, 09:55:30 am
I can definitely support the Ryan/Hixon/Edwards nominations.

*** Below was posted to the NESCAC board earlier this week***

Steve Moore (Muhlenberg/Wooster) – 1st in winning percentage and 2nd in wins

Glenn Van Wieren (Hope) – 7th in winning percentage and 11th in wins

Glenn Robinson (Franklin & Marshall) – 13th in winning percentage and 1st in wins

David Hixon (Amherst) – 10th in winning percentage and 3rd in wins

These are the only four coaches to be in the Top 20 in both categories. Hixon is the only national championship winner (2) of the group. Mark Edwards (WashU) who has won two national championships just missed the cut. Active coaches, Bob Semling (Wis.-Stevens Point) and Pat Miller (Wis.-Whitewater) are currently 2nd and 4th in all-time winning percentage respectively and have both won two national championships. The NCAA record book has Bo Ryan listed as 3rd all-time in winning percentage on the D3 list, but it is including his entire coaching career. If they just included his winning percentage for his 15 seasons at Wis.-Platteville (.823) he would be in the top spot and it wouldn’t even be close – Moore is currently listed first (.775).   
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: ronk on April 30, 2020, 10:14:20 am
 If a relevant category is wins/year, then Robinson, Hixon, Edwards, McCarrell, Bosko drop considerably in ranking.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on April 30, 2020, 10:21:10 am
If a relevant category is wins/year, then Robinson, Hixon, Edwards, McCarrell, Bosko drop considerably in ranking.

It's relevant if you think it is.

It's obvious that opinions regarding relevance vary from one poster to the next.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Pat Coleman on April 30, 2020, 11:13:54 am
Hixon had a good 20 years where his win total was capped at the end of the regular season.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: WUPHF on April 30, 2020, 03:42:19 pm
It's relevant if you think it is.

It's obvious that opinions regarding relevance vary from one poster to the next.

It is so true.

I lived through the two national championship seasons and remember thinking that a third national championship (or something close) was inevitable before the early exit.  So, I think about just how much has to come together to go all the way and I think Coach Edwards has to be there over say Steve Moore.

If I were a Wooster fan though, the winning percentage and overall games won and Steve Moore is the clear favorite.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: thebear on April 30, 2020, 05:35:36 pm
Along the same lines, Potsdam had a 60 game winning streak in 85-87.  They were defending champions, undefeated, 28-0 in 86-87 and had to go on the road in the round of 8.  These days, with national seeding and podding, not likely, unless there is a facility availability/women's team issue.
 
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: augie77 on May 01, 2020, 12:43:25 am
Old time coaches like Jerry Johnson (Lemoyne-Owen) and Dennie Bridges (Illinois Wesleyan) who won a lot of games before the advent of D3 should get some credit for their early career success.  Granted that Illinois Wesleyan stuck with NAIA well into the 1980s, but they were still competing and winning with a D3 non-scholarship style template.  Bridges successfully recruited Jack Sikma, arguably the best player ever at his "small college" level.  There are probably other worthy old timers who lost out on wins just because there wasn't a D3 in their early years of coaching.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: thebear on May 01, 2020, 08:23:16 am
Dennis Rodman was also a NAIA player,

Terry Porter is the Blazers all time assist leaders and Devean George was a D-III player who played 11 years in the league.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: augie77 on May 01, 2020, 09:50:39 am
Sikma was the number 8 pick in the 1977 NBA draft!
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Greek Tragedy on May 01, 2020, 10:09:53 am
Sikma was the number 8 pick in the 1977 NBA draft!

I don't think thebear was comparing those players to Jack Sikma. He was just adding some other names.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Caz Bombers on May 01, 2020, 11:41:25 am
I have no idea where to really put this information, but this thread has been quite active recently, so why not.

If there is a 2020-21 season, the 3-point line in D3 MBB won't be moving back as scheduled, delayed until 21-22.

https://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/prop-delays-rules-changes-one-year-five-sports
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on May 01, 2020, 01:35:48 pm
Old time coaches like Jerry Johnson (Lemoyne-Owen) and Dennie Bridges (Illinois Wesleyan) who won a lot of games before the advent of D3 should get some credit for their early career success.  Granted that Illinois Wesleyan stuck with NAIA well into the 1980s, but they were still competing and winning with a D3 non-scholarship style template.  Bridges successfully recruited Jack Sikma, arguably the best player ever at his "small college" level.  There are probably other worthy old timers who lost out on wins just because there wasn't a D3 in their early years of coaching.

Sikma had the best pro career of any former CCIW player, and by a country mile, but "best player ever at his 'small college' level"? That's very disputable. Even within just the CCIW it's disputable. There's good cases to be made for Bill Warden, Mel Peterson, Michael Harper, Steve Djurickovic, and, yes, Aston Francis as well, among others. Heck, Dennis Prikkel, who predates everybody else who posts in the CCIW room (even Mr. Ypsi and iwu70), says that Jesse Price of Millikin's late '60s teams is the best CCIW player that he ever saw.

Sikma was the number 8 pick in the 1977 NBA draft!

That doesn't make him "the best player ever at his 'small college' level." It makes him the highest draft pick ever among schools that are now in D3, which is something entirely different.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: thebear on May 01, 2020, 03:05:51 pm
Re: Small College Player, there's a guy named Randy Smith, who played at Buffalo State (college division at the time, now D-III).
2x NBA All-star, All NBA Second Team, NBA All Star game MVP.
Played 906 consecutive games,
Played 13 seasons in the league, Averaged 17 points 4 rebs 5 assists for his career.  16,000 point career scorer. (Sikma had 17,000).
If we're counting NAIA, probably need to count college division.
Saw him play, All American in soccer, basketball, and track, 7 foot high jumper.

Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 01, 2020, 04:25:22 pm
I have no idea where to really put this information, but this thread has been quite active recently, so why not.

If there is a 2020-21 season, the 3-point line in D3 MBB won't be moving back as scheduled, delayed until 21-22.

https://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/media-center/news/prop-delays-rules-changes-one-year-five-sports

You should follow the Hoopsville Twitter and Facebook accounts more often. For reasons I didn't expect, we beat the NCAA to the punch on this. LOL
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Mr. Ypsi on May 01, 2020, 05:14:13 pm
Old time coaches like Jerry Johnson (Lemoyne-Owen) and Dennie Bridges (Illinois Wesleyan) who won a lot of games before the advent of D3 should get some credit for their early career success.  Granted that Illinois Wesleyan stuck with NAIA well into the 1980s, but they were still competing and winning with a D3 non-scholarship style template.  Bridges successfully recruited Jack Sikma, arguably the best player ever at his "small college" level.  There are probably other worthy old timers who lost out on wins just because there wasn't a D3 in their early years of coaching.

Sikma had the best pro career of any former CCIW player, and by a country mile, but "best player ever at his 'small college' level"? That's very disputable. Even within just the CCIW it's disputable. There's good cases to be made for Bill Warden, Mel Peterson, Michael Harper, Steve Djurickovic, and, yes, Aston Francis as well, among others. Heck, Dennis Prikkel, who predates everybody else who posts in the CCIW room (even Mr. Ypsi and iwu70), says that Jesse Price of Millikin's late '60s teams is the best CCIW player that he ever saw.

Sikma was the number 8 pick in the 1977 NBA draft!

That doesn't make him "the best player ever at his 'small college' level." It makes him the highest draft pick ever among schools that are now in D3, which is something entirely different.

I totally agree with Dennis Prikkel about Jesse Price.  I firmly believe he would have been the only player ever to be a FOUR-time CCIW MOP if not for one small detail - the award wasn't invented until his junior year! ;)
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Pat Coleman on May 01, 2020, 05:14:34 pm
Remind me -- we are talking about coaches, right?
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: augie77 on May 01, 2020, 05:15:08 pm
Re: Small College Player, there's a guy named Randy Smith, who played at Buffalo State (college division at the time, now D-III).
2x NBA All-star, All NBA Second Team, NBA All Star game MVP.
Played 906 consecutive games,
Played 13 seasons in the league, Averaged 17 points 4 rebs 5 assists for his career.  16,000 point career scorer. (Sikma had 17,000).
If we're counting NAIA, probably need to count college division.
Saw him play, All American in soccer, basketball, and track, 7 foot high jumper.

That's impressive, but Sikma was a seven time NBA All Star and is a Naismith Hall of Famer.  That said, mycommentary was never intended to bring up comparisons of former players.  The discussion was about coaching prowess, of which one major indicator is recruiting ability.  It seems Dennie Bridges did fairly well with #44. 

Regarding Mount Rushmore, that should be reserved for D3 coaches, but my argument is that guys who coachd in a D3 style context (no scholarships, philosophically attuned to D3 principles) prior to the advent of D3 should get *some* credit for their early success.  Especially if they already have a Rushmore-esque resume.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on May 01, 2020, 05:52:46 pm
Remind me -- we are talking about coaches, right?

We're just seeing if you're paying attention, Pat.

Regarding Mount Rushmore, that should be reserved for D3 coaches, but my argument is that guys who coachd in a D3 style context (no scholarships, philosophically attuned to D3 principles) prior to the advent of D3 should get *some* credit for their early success. Especially if they already have a Rushmore-esque resume.

How closely did they hew to those D3 principles, though? There's a lot more to D3 principles than simply eschewing athletic scholarships. The 4%-leeway principle, f'rinstance, in which a D3 school agrees not to deviate by more than 4% from any aid given to a student-athlete as opposed to the typical student at that school. Back in the day, there was a number of schools that were dual members of D3 and the NAIA. Nebraska Wesleyan was pretty much the last school to hold that dual affiliation, before moving to the ARC and finally jettisoning its NAIA membership for good a few years ago. But in the early days of D3 there was a whole bunch of dual-member schools, and the CCIW contained several of them (including your alma mater at first, Steve, although I think that you guys were D3-only by the time that you graduated). I've occasionally wondered if the dual-member schools that declared for the NAIA went ahead and followed through on the paperwork for D3 in any given year back then. (Of course, it wouldn't be an applicable matter the other way around, given the perennial loosey-goosey nature of the NAIA.)
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: thebear on May 01, 2020, 07:03:04 pm
to get us back on task.  I submit the following:

Winning Coach   Titles   Seconds
Ryan, Bo               4                0
McCarrell, Dan       3                0
Welsh, Jerry       2                3
Bessoir, Bob       2                1
Bennett, Jack       2                0
Edwards, Mark       2                0
Hixson, David       2                0
Miller, Pat               2                0
Semling, Bob       2                0
VanderMeulen, Dave   2        0
Djurikovic, Bosco   2                0
Neer, Mike              1                2
Johnson, Jerry      1                1
Lewis, Matt      1                1
Macedo, Dave      1                1
Paulsen, Dave      1                1

Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: augie77 on May 01, 2020, 08:45:46 pm
Remind me -- we are talking about coaches, right?

We're just seeing if you're paying attention, Pat.

Regarding Mount Rushmore, that should be reserved for D3 coaches, but my argument is that guys who coachd in a D3 style context (no scholarships, philosophically attuned to D3 principles) prior to the advent of D3 should get *some* credit for their early success. Especially if they already have a Rushmore-esque resume.

How closely did they hew to those D3 principles, though? There's a lot more to D3 principles than simply eschewing athletic scholarships. The 4%-leeway principle, f'rinstance, in which a D3 school agrees not to deviate by more than 4% from any aid given to a student-athlete as opposed to the typical student at that school. Back in the day, there was a number of schools that were dual members of D3 and the NAIA. Nebraska Wesleyan was pretty much the last school to hold that dual affiliation, before moving to the ARC and finally jettisoning its NAIA membership for good a few years ago. But in the early days of D3 there was a whole bunch of dual-member schools, and the CCIW contained several of them (including your alma mater at first, Steve, although I think that you guys were D3-only by the time that you graduated). I've occasionally wondered if the dual-member schools that declared for the NAIA went ahead and followed through on the paperwork for D3 in any given year back then. (Of course, it wouldn't be an applicable matter the other way around, given the perennial loosey-goosey nature of the NAIA.)

I wasn't attuned to administrative technicalities in those days, but I can tell you that in 1974, my freshman year, the Vikings went to Kansas City and finished in the Final Eight for NAIA (they had been third in 1973).  The next year, 1975, was Year One of D3 and the Vikings finished third at Albright College (lost to Lemoyne-Owen and Jerry Lewis in the semi-finals.  The next year was a repeat performance, also finishing third at Albright.  I attended in both 1975 and 1976.  The following year Augie hosted and I was there again.  Also watched your Chicago Vikings earn their three-peat in 1980 in Rock Island, and Augustana's near miss to Potsdam in 1981.  Best I can tell Augustana put the NAIA in the rear view mirror as soon as there was a D3 option.  The single goal was to go far and hopefully win in D3.  Still waiting.....
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on May 01, 2020, 10:05:56 pm
I know that Augustana finished third in the NAIA in 1972-73, the season that Augie earned the last undefeated conference record that anyone's achieved in the CCIW. But Augustana was in the 1971 NCAA College Division tournament, in which it lost to Central Michigan in the opening round and to Ashland in the regional consolation game. It's possible that Augie flipped back and forth between the NCAA and NAIA on two different occasions within a five-year span without ever holding dual membership, but it seems somewhat unlikely.

It was commonplace back then to hold dual memberships in the NCAA and the NAIA, and to declare for one organization or the other -- you couldn't declare for both -- for post-season purposes prior to the beginning of the school year.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: ronk on May 01, 2020, 11:10:51 pm
Remind me -- we are talking about coaches, right?

We're just seeing if you're paying attention, Pat.

Regarding Mount Rushmore, that should be reserved for D3 coaches, but my argument is that guys who coachd in a D3 style context (no scholarships, philosophically attuned to D3 principles) prior to the advent of D3 should get *some* credit for their early success. Especially if they already have a Rushmore-esque resume.

How closely did they hew to those D3 principles, though? There's a lot more to D3 principles than simply eschewing athletic scholarships. The 4%-leeway principle, f'rinstance, in which a D3 school agrees not to deviate by more than 4% from any aid given to a student-athlete as opposed to the typical student at that school. Back in the day, there was a number of schools that were dual members of D3 and the NAIA. Nebraska Wesleyan was pretty much the last school to hold that dual affiliation, before moving to the ARC and finally jettisoning its NAIA membership for good a few years ago. But in the early days of D3 there was a whole bunch of dual-member schools, and the CCIW contained several of them (including your alma mater at first, Steve, although I think that you guys were D3-only by the time that you graduated). I've occasionally wondered if the dual-member schools that declared for the NAIA went ahead and followed through on the paperwork for D3 in any given year back then. (Of course, it wouldn't be an applicable matter the other way around, given the perennial loosey-goosey nature of the NAIA.)

I wasn't attuned to administrative technicalities in those days, but I can tell you that in 1974, my freshman year, the Vikings went to Kansas City and finished in the Final Eight for NAIA (they had been third in 1973).  The next year, 1975, was Year One of D3 and the Vikings finished third at Albright College (lost to Lemoyne-Owen and Jerry Lewis in the semi-finals.  The next year was a repeat performance, also finishing third at Albright.  I attended in both 1975 and 1976.  The following year Augie hosted and I was there again.  Also watched your Chicago Vikings earn their three-peat in 1980 in Rock Island, and Augustana's near miss to Potsdam in 1981.  Best I can tell Augustana put the NAIA in the rear view mirror as soon as there was a D3 option.  The single goal was to go far and hopefully win in D3.  Still waiting.....
 

 Sorry to be in Augie's way in '76  ;); got the program in front of me if you have any questions.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: augie77 on May 01, 2020, 11:44:48 pm
No questions, but #52 was my senior year roommate.  Currently a physician in Rockford, Illinois.  His gpa significantly exceeded his ppg.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: ronk on May 01, 2020, 11:56:11 pm
 #52 is in the team picture but not on the roster or in the game scoresheet.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: augie77 on May 02, 2020, 12:05:31 am
Probably left at home so he could study for his organic chemistry exam.   ;)  I think if he'd have been there Augie would have won.  lol
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 02, 2020, 04:40:18 pm
Per this convo ... seems everyone forgot Amherst lost to WashU in what was the Bears' first NCAA title. 2008: 90-68.

So Hixon actually has one second place finish to add to that resume.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: thebear on May 03, 2020, 09:18:27 am
Thanks, good catch, the data base I was pulling from had Hixson as Dave in one and David in the other two.

Moves him into a tie with Bob Bessoir with two titles and a second.

My thoughts

Ryan, 4 titles, two undefeated seasons, best record in the 90's
two headed McCarrell/Djurikovic, tough to take one without the other.
Welsh (60 game win streak, first undefeated champ, 5 championship games), Best record in the 80's.
two headed Bessoir/Hixson, tough to separate, Bessoir in early days of D-III, Hixson still had 25+ years of tournament - more than Ryan or Welsh.





Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 03, 2020, 02:06:18 pm
Thanks, good catch, the data base I was pulling from had Hixson as Dave in one and David in the other two.

Moves him into a tie with Bob Bessoir with two titles and a second.

My thoughts

Ryan, 4 titles, two undefeated seasons, best record in the 90's
two headed McCarrell/Djurikovic, tough to take one without the other.
Welsh (60 game win streak, first undefeated champ, 5 championship games), Best record in the 80's.
two headed Bessoir/Hixson, tough to separate, Bessoir in early days of D-III, Hixson still had 25+ years of tournament - more than Ryan or Welsh.

the bear - HIXON ... not HixSon.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on May 03, 2020, 03:32:18 pm
I've already rattled his cage about how he spells that name, Dave. He should get a pass for "Djurickovic," though; everybody who isn't a Serbian-American struggles with that one at first.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: ronk on May 03, 2020, 06:49:19 pm
I've already rattled his cage about how he spells that name, Dave. He should get a pass for "Djurickovic," though; everybody who isn't a Serbian-American struggles with that one at first.

 There's an old joke about the Eastern European(maybe, Serbian) who went in for a vision exam:
 Can u read the bottom line? said the doc.
 Read it! I know the guy! said the patient.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Greek Tragedy on May 04, 2020, 12:22:49 am
https://en.dopl3r.com/memes/dank/a-russian-went-for-an-eye-check-up-the-doctor-showed-the-letters-on-the-board-czwxnqstazky-doctor-can-you-read-this-russian-read-i-evern-know-the-guy-hes-my-cousin-czwxnqstazky-rozhdestvenskij-can-someone-explain-me-this-j/443009
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: WUPHF on May 04, 2020, 12:43:45 am
Hey, I have been giving you all a pass every since I joined d3boards.com, but I think it is time to honor the old coach properly.

From now on, I expect to see his name written as Бошко Ђуричковић.

I'll accept the Latin spelling of Boško Đuričković when used outside the CCIW thread.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on May 04, 2020, 10:53:21 am
From now on, I expect to see his name written as Бошко Ђуричковић.

We can definitely have some fun with that.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Ralph Turner on May 05, 2020, 05:03:54 pm
Is TGHIJGSTO!!! Serbian, too?
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: WUPHF on May 05, 2020, 07:56:31 pm
TГИJCTO!
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: augie77 on May 05, 2020, 08:35:26 pm
Augustana's Grey Giovanine has announced his retirement after 21 years at the school, and six years at D1 Lamar.  There'd been discussion here that Coach G. could one day make it into the Rushmore discussion, but retirement probably quells that idea.  A national search for his successor will commence.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: PauldingLightUP on May 06, 2020, 12:37:49 pm
Augustana's Grey Giovanine has announced his retirement after 21 years at the school, and six years at D1 Lamar.  There'd been discussion here that Coach G. could one day make it into the Rushmore discussion, but retirement probably quells that idea.  A national search for his successor will commence.

I’d say he has a place on a Mount Rushmore of coaches never to win a National Championship.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on May 06, 2020, 01:21:59 pm
That sounds like more of a Crazy Horse of coaches. ;)
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Ralph Turner on May 06, 2020, 02:11:45 pm
Is TGHIJGSTO!!! Serbian, too?

TГИJCTO!

So, it takes 3 exclamation points in English to say what a Serb can say in one!

 ;D
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on May 06, 2020, 02:19:35 pm
It depends upon how much slivovitz the Serb has had prior to the exclamatory statement.
Title: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gray Fox on May 06, 2020, 02:36:03 pm
Greg Popovich, Pomona  1979-86 and 1987-88.  He was an assistant at Kansas 1986-87
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 06, 2020, 02:46:29 pm
Greg Popovich, Pomona  1979-86 and 1987-88.  He was an assistant at Kansas 1986-87

Nothing against Pop, but what did he do in DIII that would get him on the DIII Mount Rushmore?

He is a great coach, sure, but it is about what was done in the division.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on May 06, 2020, 03:05:44 pm
Exactly. Otherwise, we'd have to put Jim Calhoun on it, too.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: thebear on May 06, 2020, 03:48:38 pm
Augustana's Grey Giovanine has announced his retirement after 21 years at the school, and six years at D1 Lamar.  There'd been discussion here that Coach G. could one day make it into the Rushmore discussion, but retirement probably quells that idea.  A national search for his successor will commence.

Grey was replaced at Lamar by Potsdam (and Jerry Welsh coaching tree) alum Mike Deane after he fell from grace at Marquette.  Mike stole an NCAA bid at Lamar (third different school he took to the dance), before his AD, one Billy Tubbs, decided to take another stab at coaching.  Deane moved to Wagner, where he came within a game of taking a fourth team to the dance and wound up as an asst to his former Siena Player, Matt Brady at James Madison, retired a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: cubs on May 06, 2020, 09:58:20 pm
to get us back on task.  I submit the following:

Winning Coach   Titles   Seconds
Ryan, Bo               4                0
McCarrell, Dan       3                0
Welsh, Jerry       2                3
Bessoir, Bob       2                1
Bennett, Jack       2                0
Edwards, Mark       2                0
Hixson, David       2                0
Miller, Pat               2                0
Semling, Bob       2                0
VanderMeulen, Dave   2        0
Djurikovic, Bosco   2                0
Neer, Mike              1                2
Johnson, Jerry      1                1
Lewis, Matt      1                1
Macedo, Dave      1                1
Paulsen, Dave      1                1
Geez!  I guess I didn't realize that the WSUC/WIAC was a perfect 12-0 in the National Championship game before Matt Lewis and UWO fell short in 2018.   ;)

I guess they made up for it in 2019 though!  ;D
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: WUPHF on May 06, 2020, 10:04:46 pm
So, it takes 3 exclamation points in English to say what a Serb can say in one!

 ;D

It depends upon how much slivovitz the Serb has had prior to the exclamatory statement.

Živeli

(10 months living in the Balkans is finally paying off)
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on May 06, 2020, 11:11:11 pm
All the Serbian-Americans I know (and the one Serbian-Australian I know) are just fine with calling it slivovitz, which seems to be the generic Slavic name for damson-plum brandy. It's typically the word used on the bottle labels over here.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: PauldingLightUP on May 06, 2020, 11:41:08 pm
to get us back on task.  I submit the following:

Winning Coach   Titles   Seconds
Ryan, Bo               4                0
McCarrell, Dan       3                0
Welsh, Jerry       2                3
Bessoir, Bob       2                1
Bennett, Jack       2                0
Edwards, Mark       2                0
Hixson, David       2                0
Miller, Pat               2                0
Semling, Bob       2                0
VanderMeulen, Dave   2        0
Djurikovic, Bosco   2                0
Neer, Mike              1                2
Johnson, Jerry      1                1
Lewis, Matt      1                1
Macedo, Dave      1                1
Paulsen, Dave      1                1
Geez!  I guess I didn't realize that the WSUC/WIAC was a perfect 12-0 in the National Championship game before Matt Lewis and UWO fell short in 2018.   ;)

I guess they made up for it in 2019 though!  ;D

Very true about the WIAC in title games.

I’m somewhat surprised no one brought this forward before, Lewis is actually just 1-0. Juckem was the head coach in 2018. Otherwise from what I see it looks good and great work thebear.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: SpringSt7 on May 06, 2020, 11:57:58 pm
With Moore, Robinson, Hixon, and Giovanine leaving the D3 coaching world in the last 9 months or so, who is now the active coach most likely to put himself in that conversation in the next few years?

For the sake of argument, let's not include Bosko--if only because he is already firmly in the conversation.

The current active wins leaders in D3 don't really give us much help, just 8 of the top 50 (wins are through 2019, best I could find):

13. Brian Baptiste, U-Mass Dartmouth, 645
24. Bob McVean, RIT, 572
27. Charlie Brock, Springfield, 557
(30. Bosko Djurickovic, 552)
31. Bill Fenlon, DePauw, 550
35. Todd Raridon, North Central, 536
43. Kerry Prather, Franklin, 511
45. Mark Hanson, Gustavus Adolphus, 508

Not including Bosko, that's 3879 wins with 5 Final Four appearances to show for it. Of that list, Raridon has 2, and I think the case is easily made that he is in the best position of the 7 to earn more achievements, especially if there is going to be a potential power shift in the CCIW (although Augustana will surely continue its success as a program).

Other names to throw out there, with my very limited knowledge of D3 coaching history:
-Eric Bridgeland, if he can build Redlands into a Whitman-like program
-Jeff Brown, Middlebury, 400+ career wins, always a national contender of late, even if the national results seem to underwhelm
-Dale Wellman, Nebraska Wesleyan, still a very young coach but already has a ring under his belt, big rebuild ahead but if NWU can become a regional power, those win totals will rise in a hurry

Any other nominees?
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: WUPHF on May 07, 2020, 01:28:10 am
All the Serbian-Americans I know (and the one Serbian-Australian I know) are just fine with calling it slivovitz, which seems to be the generic Slavic name for damson-plum brandy. It's typically the word used on the bottle labels over here.

Rakija is the more common name in Serbia, but šlivovitz is suitable as well.

Živeli though is one of two ways of saying cheers.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: FCGrizzliesGrad on May 07, 2020, 04:42:36 am
With Moore, Robinson, Hixon, and Giovanine leaving the D3 coaching world in the last 9 months or so, who is now the active coach most likely to put himself in that conversation in the next few years?

For the sake of argument, let's not include Bosko--if only because he is already firmly in the conversation.

The current active wins leaders in D3 don't really give us much help, just 8 of the top 50 (wins are through 2019, best I could find):

13. Brian Baptiste, U-Mass Dartmouth, 645
24. Bob McVean, RIT, 572
27. Charlie Brock, Springfield, 557
(30. Bosko Djurickovic, 552)
31. Bill Fenlon, DePauw, 550
35. Todd Raridon, North Central, 536
43. Kerry Prather, Franklin, 511
45. Mark Hanson, Gustavus Adolphus, 508

Not including Bosko, that's 3879 wins with 5 Final Four appearances to show for it. Of that list, Raridon has 2, and I think the case is easily made that he is in the best position of the 7 to earn more achievements, especially if there is going to be a potential power shift in the CCIW (although Augustana will surely continue its success as a program).

Other names to throw out there, with my very limited knowledge of D3 coaching history:
-Eric Bridgeland, if he can build Redlands into a Whitman-like program
-Jeff Brown, Middlebury, 400+ career wins, always a national contender of late, even if the national results seem to underwhelm
-Dale Wellman, Nebraska Wesleyan, still a very young coach but already has a ring under his belt, big rebuild ahead but if NWU can become a regional power, those win totals will rise in a hurry

Any other nominees?
I finally have something to add to the conversation... Kerry Prather is no longer on the active list as he retired after the season (but will remain at Franklin as President next year)
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on May 07, 2020, 08:59:03 am

So, we did, at some point, decide the list should be about accomplishments over one's ability to coach?  I have a hard time separating the notion of what a coach has accomplished on the floor and to what degree I'd be excited about a potential basketball playing child to be on the coach's team.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: jamtod on May 07, 2020, 09:05:08 am
With Moore, Robinson, Hixon, and Giovanine leaving the D3 coaching world in the last 9 months or so, who is now the active coach most likely to put himself in that conversation in the next few years?

For the sake of argument, let's not include Bosko--if only because he is already firmly in the conversation.

The current active wins leaders in D3 don't really give us much help, just 8 of the top 50 (wins are through 2019, best I could find):

13. Brian Baptiste, U-Mass Dartmouth, 645
24. Bob McVean, RIT, 572
27. Charlie Brock, Springfield, 557
(30. Bosko Djurickovic, 552)
31. Bill Fenlon, DePauw, 550
35. Todd Raridon, North Central, 536
43. Kerry Prather, Franklin, 511
45. Mark Hanson, Gustavus Adolphus, 508

Not including Bosko, that's 3879 wins with 5 Final Four appearances to show for it. Of that list, Raridon has 2, and I think the case is easily made that he is in the best position of the 7 to earn more achievements, especially if there is going to be a potential power shift in the CCIW (although Augustana will surely continue its success as a program).

Other names to throw out there, with my very limited knowledge of D3 coaching history:
-Eric Bridgeland, if he can build Redlands into a Whitman-like program
-Jeff Brown, Middlebury, 400+ career wins, always a national contender of late, even if the national results seem to underwhelm
-Dale Wellman, Nebraska Wesleyan, still a very young coach but already has a ring under his belt, big rebuild ahead but if NWU can become a regional power, those win totals will rise in a hurry

Any other nominees?

Also very early, but Coach Tauer at St Thomas is worth keeping an eye on. I think the 211-50 overall record is current through 9 seasons. One national title and another Final 4 as head coach and 1 title as top assistant. Two time D3 coach of the year.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on May 07, 2020, 09:35:09 am
All the Serbian-Americans I know (and the one Serbian-Australian I know) are just fine with calling it slivovitz, which seems to be the generic Slavic name for damson-plum brandy. It's typically the word used on the bottle labels over here.

Rakija is the more common name in Serbia, but šlivovitz is suitable as well.

Živeli though is one of two ways of saying cheers.

Ah! Noted and filed. Thanks ... or, perhaps I should say, "Хвала вам."  ;)
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: SpringSt7 on May 07, 2020, 01:35:55 pm
Also very early, but Coach Tauer at St Thomas is worth keeping an eye on. I think the 211-50 overall record is current through 9 seasons. One national title and another Final 4 as head coach and 1 title as top assistant. Two time D3 coach of the year.

Jon Tauer would have the best case of any current coach by far, but I think it will be tough for him to climb the D3 Mt. Rushmore if he is coaching D1  ;)
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: SpringSt7 on May 07, 2020, 01:40:36 pm

So, we did, at some point, decide the list should be about accomplishments over one's ability to coach?  I have a hard time separating the notion of what a coach has accomplished on the floor and to what degree I'd be excited about a potential basketball playing child to be on the coach's team.

Isn't it kind of both? I mean if you can coach, theoretically, the wins and what not will come. Or at least you should be able to showcase enough coaching ability to put yourself in a position where you can do that. It should be a sliding scale---the achievements and totality argument isn't the be all and end all, but if we're talking about the very best coaches, who have been doing it for decades, doesn't it all become the same thing at some point?
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on May 07, 2020, 01:43:51 pm
Jon Tauer would have the best case of any current coach by far, but I think it will be tough for him to climb the D3 Mt. Rushmore if he is coaching D1  ;)

Coaches are climbing the D3 Mount Rushmore? I thought that they were supposed to aspire to be carved into the D3 Mount Rushmore!

Perhaps we can give out the Cary Grant Award for the coach who appears to be climbing Mount Rushmore in order to get away from assassins. ;)
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: jamtod on May 07, 2020, 01:49:48 pm
Also very early, but Coach Tauer at St Thomas is worth keeping an eye on. I think the 211-50 overall record is current through 9 seasons. One national title and another Final 4 as head coach and 1 title as top assistant. Two time D3 coach of the year.

Jon Tauer would have the best case of any current coach by far, but I think it will be tough for him to climb the D3 Mt. Rushmore if he is coaching D1  ;)

Ha! I had honestly forgot about that whole D1 thing for a bit. But it seems like the NCAA may have as well, so it's possible that whole transition gets delayed leaving us in some sort of no man's land for a bit.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on May 07, 2020, 03:03:49 pm

So, we did, at some point, decide the list should be about accomplishments over one's ability to coach?  I have a hard time separating the notion of what a coach has accomplished on the floor and to what degree I'd be excited about a potential basketball playing child to be on the coach's team.

Isn't it kind of both? I mean if you can coach, theoretically, the wins and what not will come. Or at least you should be able to showcase enough coaching ability to put yourself in a position where you can do that. It should be a sliding scale---the achievements and totality argument isn't the be all and end all, but if we're talking about the very best coaches, who have been doing it for decades, doesn't it all become the same thing at some point?

I'm not sure it is.  There are definitely different approaches to this, for sure.  I'm not saying I'm correct in my opinion, but, for example, I'd never put Bobby Knight on a "best" list anywhere. The guy got results, for sure, and he knows basketball, but I just don't respect the way he went about his job.  That's not to say I'm right and he's wrong, but I feel a certain way about it.

From a different perspective, you might mention John Calipari.  The guy can flat out recruit.  He gets great talent and he wins a lot with them.  No one (Cal included, I think), will tell you he's among the best at coaching basketball.  Many would argue his coaching has cost him as many titles as his recruiting has earned him.

For me, if I were making a list like this (and I've come to the conclusion that four is too few), I would certainly do more than just put together a resume of accomplishments.  That's an important element, but I don't think that should be the primary means of constructing such a list.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on May 07, 2020, 03:20:01 pm
From a different perspective, you might mention John Calipari.  The guy can flat out recruit.  He gets great talent and he wins a lot with them.  No one (Cal included, I think), will tell you he's among the best at coaching basketball.  Many would argue his coaching has cost him as many titles as his recruiting has earned him.

Honestly, and I'm not singling you out with this, Ryan, I've never understood how some fans make a distinction between "recruiting" and "coaching" as though they're two different things. Recruiting is part of college coaching, not something utterly distinct. If you're hired to be a coach, you're hired to recruit, plain and simple, just as you're also hired to run practices (including skills tutoring), construct game plans, hire and supervise assistants, manage the team during games, run camps, etc. It's part of what coaching is at the collegiate level -- the most important part, in fact.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on May 07, 2020, 03:58:54 pm
Recruiting is part of college coaching, not something utterly distinct.
I think every great coach will tell you recruiting is the most important part of college coaching.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: NEhoops on May 07, 2020, 04:06:04 pm
SpringSt7, regarding active coaches, Bob Semling (Wis.-Stevens Point) and Pat Miller (Wis.-Whitewater) are currently 2nd and 4th in all-time winning percentage respectively and have both won two national championships. I think that firmly puts them in the conversation for future consideration. 

Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: SpringSt7 on May 07, 2020, 04:22:20 pm
SpringSt7, regarding active coaches, Bob Semling (Wis.-Stevens Point) and Pat Miller (Wis.-Whitewater) are currently 2nd and 4th in all-time winning percentage respectively and have both won two national championships. I think that firmly puts them in the conversation for future consideration.

Thank for that---I had tried to find some sort of winning percentage list but I was out of luck.

Ryan, I understand your point, and I agree with most of it, but I would have to side with Titan and Sager--it's hard to separate one from the other. Additionally, sticking with the Calipari example, I would argue that his success at UMass, and then to a lesser extent at Memphis (because his model at Memphis was also heavily recruiting oriented), he was then able to earn the HC job at Kentucky and become the recruiting dynamo that he is.

On the flip side, I've always found it strange that people give guys like Tom Izzo credit for winning with "lesser talent", as if he is being rewarded for being unable to recruit the caliber of player that routinely heads to Duke or Kentucky.

This thread has proved over the last couple of weeks just how hard it is to evaluate coaching, or break down each element of a winning team, organization, or player---something I have also been thinking a lot about in the context of The Last Dance and the role that guys like Phil Jackson, Scottie Pippen, and Dennis Rodman played in Michael Jordan's story.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on May 07, 2020, 05:01:30 pm
Recruiting is part of college coaching, not something utterly distinct.
I think every great coach will tell you recruiting is the most important part of college coaching.

By far.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Greek Tragedy on May 07, 2020, 05:26:27 pm
SpringSt7, regarding active coaches, Bob Semling (Wis.-Stevens Point) and Pat Miller (Wis.-Whitewater) are currently 2nd and 4th in all-time winning percentage respectively and have both won two national championships. I think that firmly puts them in the conversation for future consideration.

https://athletics.uwsp.edu/sports/mens-basketball/roster/coaches/bob-semling/2600

https://uwwsports.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/coaches/pat-miller/3225

Some pretty lean years for both coaches recently.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on May 07, 2020, 07:15:32 pm
See, I'd tend to say the best coach is the one who can get the most out of five random human beings who may or may not have ever seen a basketball. I give recruiting zero influence inn my decisions. Obviously wins reflect recruiting to some extent, but recruiting is definitely my least favorite part of d3hoops.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on May 07, 2020, 08:11:25 pm
See, I'd tend to say the best coach is the one who can get the most out of five random human beings who may or may not have ever seen a basketball. I give recruiting zero influence inn my decisions. Obviously wins reflect recruiting to some extent, but recruiting is definitely my least favorite part of d3hoops.

But, like, all those teams we end up voting for in the Top 25, or the ones we talk about as Pool C candidates, or those we enjoy watching in Fort Wayne...they all got there because of recruiting more than anything.  You can't be a good team without good players.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: cubs on May 08, 2020, 12:38:27 am
to get us back on task.  I submit the following:

Winning Coach   Titles   Seconds
Ryan, Bo               4                0
McCarrell, Dan       3                0
Welsh, Jerry       2                3
Bessoir, Bob       2                1
Bennett, Jack       2                0
Edwards, Mark       2                0
Hixson, David       2                0
Miller, Pat               2                0
Semling, Bob       2                0
VanderMeulen, Dave   2        0
Djurikovic, Bosco   2                0
Neer, Mike              1                2
Johnson, Jerry      1                1
Lewis, Matt      1                1
Macedo, Dave      1                1
Paulsen, Dave      1                1
Geez!  I guess I didn't realize that the WSUC/WIAC was a perfect 12-0 in the National Championship game before Matt Lewis and UWO fell short in 2018.   ;)

I guess they made up for it in 2019 though!  ;D

Very true about the WIAC in title games.

I’m somewhat surprised no one brought this forward before, Lewis is actually just 1-0. Juckem was the head coach in 2018. Otherwise from what I see it looks good and great work thebear.
Looks like I was wrong....  I forgot about UWEC losing to Calvin in Salem back in 2000....

I guess 13-2 isn't too shabby though?
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on May 08, 2020, 08:36:23 am
See, I'd tend to say the best coach is the one who can get the most out of five random human beings who may or may not have ever seen a basketball. I give recruiting zero influence inn my decisions. Obviously wins reflect recruiting to some extent, but recruiting is definitely my least favorite part of d3hoops.

But, like, all those teams we end up voting for in the Top 25, or the ones we talk about as Pool C candidates, or those we enjoy watching in Fort Wayne...they all got there because of recruiting more than anything.  You can't be a good team without good players.

But you can be a good coach without good players.  That's my point.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on May 08, 2020, 09:18:06 am
See, I'd tend to say the best coach is the one who can get the most out of five random human beings who may or may not have ever seen a basketball. I give recruiting zero influence inn my decisions. Obviously wins reflect recruiting to some extent, but recruiting is definitely my least favorite part of d3hoops.

But, like, all those teams we end up voting for in the Top 25, or the ones we talk about as Pool C candidates, or those we enjoy watching in Fort Wayne...they all got there because of recruiting more than anything.  You can't be a good team without good players.

But you can be a good coach without good players.  That's my point.
I hear you.  You're saying regardless of talent level of personnel, a coach can still be a great teacher, motivator, etc. - can even win some games against more talented teams via great coaching.  That is absolutely true. 

But, coaches who don't recruit well don't win.  If a coach doesn't win over a long period of time do we consider him/her a good coach? The coaches part of this Mount Rushmore conversation certainly all mastered the art of recruiting and recruited well over and over again.  If we started to list common traits across this group of Mount Rushmore candidates, I'm pretty sure the most common would be the ability to recruit.

I guess I'm where Greg was - "I've never understood how some fans make a distinction between 'recruiting' and 'coaching' as though they're two different things."  Heck, recruiting is such a core part of coaching that a lot great coaches retire when they no longer want to recruit.   The coaches who are #1 and #2 in all-time CCIW wins are good examples.  Dennie Bridges (17 CCIW titles) stepped away in 2001 because, despite loving practice and the games, just didn't have the energy to keep recruiting at the level necessary to contend in the CCIW.  And as I am learning more about the Grey Giovanine (10 CCIW titles) situation it sounds like the exact same thing - has just kind of lost the energy/desire to recruit.

I guess I'm just saying I don't know how you're splitting recruiting out from coaching.  And since I am in quarantine due to a pandemic I have time on my hands to waste on this discussion.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on May 08, 2020, 10:15:42 am
And I've always felt recruiting was the one thing that's not very d3 about d3hoops. I'd love to see schools recruit students and coaches do their best with who shows up. I recognize that's not possible, but the notion that athletics plays a part in a kid's college choice at this level has never sat well with me. I would want to minimize that in this discussion. Winning a title with the best players should reflect more on the players than the coach.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on May 08, 2020, 10:25:25 am
See, I'd tend to say the best coach is the one who can get the most out of five random human beings who may or may not have ever seen a basketball. I give recruiting zero influence inn my decisions. Obviously wins reflect recruiting to some extent, but recruiting is definitely my least favorite part of d3hoops.

But, like, all those teams we end up voting for in the Top 25, or the ones we talk about as Pool C candidates, or those we enjoy watching in Fort Wayne...they all got there because of recruiting more than anything.  You can't be a good team without good players.

But you can be a good coach without good players.  That's my point.

I completely disagree. Being a good college basketball coach means acquiring good players. As Bob said, you're reducing the job of coaching to its constituent parts and only selecting some of them (teacher, motivator, etc.) as "coaching," while dismissing another constituent part (recruiting) as something outside of coaching.

Let me ask you this, Ryan: When you've seen job notices for D3 coaches, as I'm sure you have, do they say that the school is seeking a "Head Coach of Men's Basketball" and a "Head Recruiter of Men's Basketball"? No. The job posting is always for a "Head Coach of Men's Basketball," plain and simple. Recruiting men's basketball student-athletes is one of the requirements for that position; even if specific aspects of recruiting are then assigned by the head coach to an assistant or assistants, as head coach he is still responsible for recruitment.

It's not "teacher, motivator, etc." = coach, with recruiting outside of the equation. It's "teacher, motivator, etc." + recruiter = coach.

See, I'd tend to say the best coach is the one who can get the most out of five random human beings who may or may not have ever seen a basketball.

In terms of college basketball, you've just described the best bench coach, or the best practice coach, or the best skills instructor, or the best combination of the three. But they don't add up to the word "coach" on this level; you need to add recruiting to the mix as well in order to fill out the job description.

You like the ice cream, the sprinkles, and the napkin. You don't like the cone as well? OK. But without the cone it's not an ice cream cone. Instead, you've just got a sticky mess on your hands. ;)

I give recruiting zero influence inn my decisions. Obviously wins reflect recruiting to some extent, but recruiting is definitely my least favorite part of d3hoops.

I'm sure that it's the least favorite part of D3 hoops for a lot of fans, perhaps even most of them. Recruiting is obscure, subjective, has relatively low visibility, is dependent upon such non-basketball arcana as financial aid packages, campus location, majors, etc., and it's oftentimes a bit unsavory with regard to tactics. It doesn't involve the actual game of basketball itself at all. But I would say that the first clause in your sentence, "Obviously, wins reflect recruiting to some extent," should be amended to read, "Obviously, wins reflect recruiting to a vast extent."

It doesn't always happen, but, usually, it's the team that takes the floor with the best players that wins the game. And if the team with the lesser talent isn't at least within shouting distance of the more talented opponent in terms of collective ability, you're much more likely to see a massacre than an upset. And you can only improve an 18-to-22-year-old basketball player just so much in terms of skills instruction, practice reps, tactics, mandatory weight-room work, psychological influence, etc. The most important components, by far, of what that 18-to-22-year-old brings to your team when he's on the floor are the components that he already had when you walked into his living room and shook hands with his parents for the first time. If he's good enough to make your program better, getting him from his living room into your locker room is, therefore, the most important part of your job.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: NEhoops on May 08, 2020, 10:44:57 am
Ryan, I can see where you are coming from, but for this subject - the Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches -  we’re suggesting coaches that are worthy based on quantitative data – wins/W%/national championships/etc. And frankly that’s all we really have to go off of when looking at the group as a whole.

I understand that wins & losses don’t entirely define how good a coach is, but for all-time discussions coaches need to achieve some of those things mentioned above to the be in the conversation. At the same time, Roy Williams, a member of Dick Vitale’s DI coaching Mount Rushmore, just went 14-19. The first losing season of his career. Anyone that was around the team or attended practice probably isn’t going to state that Roy forgot how to coach. 
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on May 08, 2020, 10:49:16 am
And I've always felt recruiting was the one thing that's not very d3 about d3hoops. I'd love to see schools recruit students and coaches do their best with who shows up. I recognize that's not possible, but the notion that athletics plays a part in a kid's college choice at this level has never sat well with me. I would want to minimize that in this discussion. Winning a title with the best players should reflect more on the players than the coach.

On a certain level, I agree with you that there would be something pure and noble about D3 playing what are actually club sports instead of varsity sports, only with institutional support in place for program infrastructure in a way that club sports lack. Or perhaps another way to describe it would be "intramurals-plus," in which athletics plays no part in a kid's decision of where to attend college.

But, of course, this is not in tune with reality. In the real world, student-athletes care very deeply about what's behind the hyphen (sometimes too much more than what's in front of the hyphen than is good for them, but I digress). A student-athlete has experienced all of the attendant joys and satisfactions of wearing his or her school's uniform in high school, even (perhaps even especially, in retrospect) the hard stuff such as excruciating workouts, getting yelled at by the coach, suffering the empty feeling that comes with a loss and learning how to endure it and use it to your future advantage, etc. That student-athlete may not be ready to give that up upon high-school graduation, even if he or she isn't the sort of raw material that a school with athletic scholarships seeks. And so that young person looks for a D3 school that has the right fit for him or her -- and, in turn, the coaches of D3 schools come looking for them as well.

I don't see anything wrong with that. It's a useful and completely acceptable concession to the real world and to the way that real student-athletes think and feel. And, for a very large percentage of D3 schools, it's a necessity for other reasons; athletics is an extraordinary admissions driver, perhaps the best that there is. At a lot of D3 schools, anywhere from a quarter to over half of a student body consists of student-athletes. If you're a tuition-dependent school, athletics is a key component to paying your bills and keeping the doors open every school year. Running your varsity sports as glorified club teams whose rosters consist of whomever decided to show up from the student body at large would not be conducive to maintaining that admissions driver.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: y_jack_lok on May 08, 2020, 10:57:52 am
A couple of questions to help me understand the recruiting discussion. I've heard that some schools have a natural advantage in getting good players because of the nature of the institution, i.e. high caliber academics, and that rather than beating the bushes for good players they only have to actively court players who themselves express an interest in their institution (and maybe compete with their peer institutions, who these same student athletes have applied to). Does this sound right? Also, how much credit for successful recruiting goes to assistant coaches who have that as one of their primary responsibilities?
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on May 08, 2020, 11:29:37 am
Those are very good questions, y_jack.

There are some schools that are privileged enough not to be proactive about recruiting, at least for some sports, or who only have to be proactive in terms of outpacing their peer institutions for student-athletes that have already sought them out and made first contact on their own. I can cite as an example MIT men's volleyball, for instance. MIT is one of the most prestigious universities in the nation, particularly in the STEM fields, and the school's acceptance rate is relatively low. A lot more kids apply to go there than the school has room, or the desire, to admit. Two years ago, the MIT men's volleyball team came to North Park to play the Vikings in a match. The NPU head coach, in a warmups conversation with his visiting counterpart, casually asked the MIT coach a question about recruiting. The MIT coach, flat out, said something along the lines of, "Oh, I don't recruit. These guys all contacted me. All I did was encourage them to apply, while checking their academics and their highlight clips to make sure that they could get in and to see if they could help the team." And the Engineers were really good; they've had 15 straight winning seasons in men's volleyball, and in 13 of those 15 they won twenty matches or more.

I'm not so sure that great men's basketball players just fall into the laps of the coaches at elite D3 schools with regularity, though, even if the student-athletes are the ones who make first contact. I suspect that the specific sport of men's basketball is just too competitive for that. My guess is that NESCAC schools, for instance, likely jockey amongst themselves for certain New England prep schoolers, and I know for certain that here in the Midwest such ultra-elite institutions of the UAA as Chicago, Wash U, and Case Western Reserve have to duke it out on the recruiting trail with other Midwestern D3 schools that, however well-regarded they are academically, are not in that UAA stratosphere when it comes to academic cachet.

As to your second question, that really depends upon the particular school. Some schools have full-time assistant coaches whose job description specifically calls for them to be the head recruiter. Others don't. Some schools have multiple assistants (including GAs and/or part-timers) who participate in the recruiting process, especially in terms of sitting in the stands at high-school games and tournaments or AAU contests and bird-dogging prospects. Others just have the one or two coaches who do all of the lifting in terms of recruitment. Some schools lean upon their alumni base to help them locate high-school prospects who'd be a good fit for the school and the program; Wheaton (IL) operates by that system to an extent, more so in some sports than others.

But the one thing that they all have in common when it comes to the head coach and recruiting is the old Harry Truman dictum: The buck stops here. Whether he's the one who is making some or all of the initial contacts, or he's the guy who comes into the picture somewhere down the road and seals the deal with an interested prospect who's been brought into the picture by an assistant, the head coach is the one who is ultimately responsible for the personnel on his roster.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan) on May 08, 2020, 11:48:00 am
Ryan, I can see where you are coming from, but for this subject - the Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches -  we’re suggesting coaches that are worthy based on quantitative data – wins/W%/national championships/etc. And frankly that’s all we really have to go off of when looking at the group as a whole.

I understand that wins & losses don’t entirely define how good a coach is, but for all-time discussions coaches need to achieve some of those things mentioned above to the be in the conversation. At the same time, Roy Williams, a member of Dick Vitale’s DI coaching Mount Rushmore, just went 14-19. The first losing season of his career. Anyone that was around the team or attended practice probably isn’t going to state that Roy forgot how to coach.

That was my original question - do we have set criteria or are we just all using our own?
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: SpringSt7 on May 08, 2020, 11:49:44 am
I agree with Sager and his Harry Truman quote, but the one thing I would add, and this is somewhat repeating what he said, is that you can probably tell what kind of program a school/coach is running based on A.) The age of the head coach and how long he has been the HC of said program and B.) How long the assistant coaches tend to stay at the program. There are certainly exceptions I would imagine, but the younger the HC, the more likely it is that they are doing nearly all of the emailing and calling and what not, although the assistants will always be useful in identifying preliminary targets at AAU tournaments and what not. But if a team is cycling assistants in and out every 2 or 3 years, it is unlikely that they are playing in a huge role in recruiting guys, knowing that they probably won't be there by the time that recruit is an upperclassmen.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: ronk on May 08, 2020, 12:24:05 pm
 No set criteria; each may weigh individual coaching aspects to their own degree; accomplishments would seem to ranking higher in weight for others than for you, Ryan.
 WRT recruiting, Gary Williams of MD(and Ohio State, BC, and American) would seem to be in the Tom Izzo school(winning with less-recruited players). Gary would not recruit McDonald-s All-American type prospects, yet still won a title.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on May 08, 2020, 02:00:28 pm
A couple of questions to help me understand the recruiting discussion. I've heard that some schools have a natural advantage in getting good players because of the nature of the institution, i.e. high caliber academics, and that rather than beating the bushes for good players they only have to actively court players who themselves express an interest in their institution (and maybe compete with their peer institutions, who these same student athletes have applied to). Does this sound right? Also, how much credit for successful recruiting goes to assistant coaches who have that as one of their primary responsibilities?

I'd say different schools have different recruiting advantages.  Advantages can be gained via:
* Academics
* Cost
* Location
* Facilities
* MBB Program Tradition (historical success)
* Social Fit

(I'm probably missing some areas, but those seem like the big ones to me.)

Rarely is one school good in all 6 for a given recruit.  For example, a UAA school might be attractive academically...but might be too expensive...or not a good fit socially...or might have a bad men's basketball program historically.

Also worth noting, those 6 factors are weighted very differently for each recruit.  (Coaches spend a lot of time during recruiting trying to determine what factors will be most important to the recruit and recruit's family in the final decision.)

Across the 6 factors, some schools certainly tend to have a more attractive mix of the 6 overall on a consistent basis.  It's what leads to "power programs" - schools that are historically strong in MBB.

If there are D3 schools that can succeed at the highest level in MBB (be a Top 25 program, make the NCAA tourney often, get to Sweet 16s, etc) without aggressively recruiting - and rather simply be able to "actively court players who themselves express an interest in their institution" - I sure have not seen it.  From what I have seen, even the schools with the most built-in advantages across those 6 factors I identified above end up in intense battles for the caliber of MBB players needed to be a top program. 

No program in Division III is fortunate enough to just take who walks in the door, coach them up, and become a Top 25 team.  Recruiting is the most important element to success for every program in Division III.

Assistant coaches play a HUGE role in D3 recruiting at most schools.  The head coach is almost always the most important in recruiting, and certainly the deal closer, but assistant coaches play a vital role in schools establishing and developing relationships with recruits during the long recruiting cycle -- May of the JR year through April SR year.  (I have seen some situations where an assistant coach was actually more impactful in recruiting than the head coach.)

I'm the anti-Ryan on recruiting.  I really enjoy following D3 MBB recruiting - I find it really interesting.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: SpringSt7 on May 08, 2020, 02:13:56 pm
If there are D3 schools that can succeed at the highest level in MBB (be a Top 25 program, make the NCAA tourney often, get to Sweet 16s, etc) without aggressively recruiting - and rather simply be able to "actively court players who themselves express an interest in their institution" - I sure have not seen it.  From what I have seen, even the schools with the most built-in advantages across those 6 factors I identified above end up in intense battles for the caliber of MBB players needed to be a top program. 

I think this is the most important part. That MIT volleyball anecdote is great but I'm struggling to think of any other academic institution that is similar to MIT in the sense that it is so outstanding in its field. I'm struggling to think of another other elite elite STEM universities that can hang with MIT athletically--and I know nothing about volleyball. Johns Hopkins and Cal Tech were the two that came to mind, and I don't think that when it comes to STEM stuff specifically, either are on that level.

But when you consider a UAA or NESCAC school for example, there are too many schools that excel in most of the aspects of a program that Titan laid out. To think that coaches could just let the recruits come to them is a little hard to believe. Would you rather reach out to WashU and see if you could make the team, or go to Rochester or Emory if they were actively courting you? Especially when you consider that a lot of the top D3 guys are D1 level prospects that just came up short, they are still being recruited at a very high level of interest.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: y_jack_lok on May 08, 2020, 02:45:18 pm
Thanks to everyone formtheir thoughts on my recruiting questions.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on May 08, 2020, 02:51:58 pm
If there are D3 schools that can succeed at the highest level in MBB (be a Top 25 program, make the NCAA tourney often, get to Sweet 16s, etc) without aggressively recruiting - and rather simply be able to "actively court players who themselves express an interest in their institution" - I sure have not seen it.  From what I have seen, even the schools with the most built-in advantages across those 6 factors I identified above end up in intense battles for the caliber of MBB players needed to be a top program. 

I think this is the most important part. That MIT volleyball anecdote is great but I'm struggling to think of any other academic institution that is similar to MIT in the sense that it is so outstanding in its field. I'm struggling to think of another other elite elite STEM universities that can hang with MIT athletically--and I know nothing about volleyball. Johns Hopkins and Cal Tech were the two that came to mind, and I don't think that when it comes to STEM stuff specifically, either are on that level.

That's why I was careful to stress that it was a men's volleyball anecdote. As I said, I don't think that the same thing holds true in men's basketball, which is simply too competitive a sport for a D3 school to get away with only taking potluck by fielding a team that consists solely of unrecruited walk-ons. Every school in D3 that isn't an all-women's institution has a men's basketball team, and, not only that -- so does every D1, D2, NAIA, USCAA, and NCCAA school that is coed, as well as most jucos. Men's college basketball programs are thick on the ground here in the United States. I don't care how elite a D3 school's academic or social status happens to be; when it comes to men's basketball, if it's not recruiting, it's not winning.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: kiko on May 08, 2020, 08:34:54 pm
See, I'd tend to say the best coach is the one who can get the most out of five random human beings who may or may not have ever seen a basketball. I give recruiting zero influence inn my decisions. Obviously wins reflect recruiting to some extent, but recruiting is definitely my least favorite part of d3hoops.

But, like, all those teams we end up voting for in the Top 25, or the ones we talk about as Pool C candidates, or those we enjoy watching in Fort Wayne...they all got there because of recruiting more than anything.  You can't be a good team without good players.

But you can be a good coach without good players.  That's my point.

I completely disagree. Being a good college basketball coach means acquiring good players. As Bob said, you're reducing the job of coaching to its constituent parts and only selecting some of them (teacher, motivator, etc.) as "coaching," while dismissing another constituent part (recruiting) as something outside of coaching.


I struggle with the idea that you can't be a good coach without acquiring good players.  In some cases, your school's circumstances will create a sort of ceiling that limits what caliber of player you can attract, and no matter how good of a recruiter you are, you can't overcome that.  It doesn't mean you aren't a good coach -- just that what success looks like may be different.

Three examples to illustrate this:

1. You've written at length on these boards about the challenges that NPU football faces, and I don't disagree with much of what you suggest.  I think we would both agree that John Thorne was/is an outstanding coach.  But put him in NPU's environment, with the challenges you've articulated, and I think it is fair to say he would not be able to land the same caliber and depth of talent.  Does this mean he suddenly has become less of a coach?  Not to me -- he would likely make the most of what he had to work with even if that recruiting effort did not translate into a lot of Thanksgiving morning walk-throughs.

2. By your definition, a coach in, say, the SLIAC, could not be a good coach, as the caliber of player in that conference is not especially strong.  But is it the coach's fault that top-level D3 recruits are not especially interested in SLIAC schools based on reputation, history, quality of competition, etc.?  In D1 terms, a five-star recruit is not going to take calls from a coach in the Atlantic 10.  If that coach progresses in his career and eventually lands a gig in the ACC, his calls will get through.  And I would argue that nothing about his recruiting chops has really changed.

3. An extreme example, but I would point you to Caltech.  A coach there faces significant recruiting constraints that are both well-known from the outset and also not of his or her own making.  A coach who can win even a few games in those circumstances is probably doing pretty well, even if he is not able to fill a roster with the same caliber of player as the teams in the opposing locker room. 

I'm not suggesting any of these coaches should be chiseled into a mountain, but being a good coach sometimes means succeeding within the constraints of an environment as much as it does rolling up with the most talented roster.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on May 08, 2020, 11:07:52 pm
Everything is relative, kiko. Given a roughly equal playing field -- which is a safe description of the typical D3 conference for most of its sports, more or less -- coaching acumen shines through, and it's in large part because of recruiting. To use your example of the SLIAC, Chris Bunch of Webster and George Barber of Greenville, who are currently the two most successful coaches in that league, are excellent recruiters who are very creative in terms of where they look for players. Just take a look at their rosters. I'm not denying that it's more difficult for some coaches to make a mark on the national scene due to institutional limitations, including membership in a non-elite conference (although even in that respect there's still the occasional Nebraska Wesleyan or Yeshiva or Benedictine). But, graded by their performance against their league peers, you can see who is out-recruiting the other coaches and putting the better team on the floor. And if you move up to a stronger league (e.g., Mike Schauer from Gordon to Wheaton, Tom Slyder from Anderson to North Park, and Matt Nadelhoffer from Eastern to Millikin), then your coaching acumen gets judged by a higher standard.

Caltech, incidentally, was an extreme example, because of the highly unusual faculty-controlled admissions process it employed. That has been altered in recent years, and the success of the Beavers on the court has changed for the better in part because of it.

Lastly, sports are not always in correspondence with regard to recruiting issues. Just as you can't extrapolate anything about MIT men's basketball from the example of MIT men's volleyball, you can't really compare North Park football to any of the other sports on the NPU campus. Why? Because none of them require their respective coaching staffs to bring in 40-60 new student-athletes every year. Bob talked about the different recruiting advantages various schools have; they're also recruiting disadvantages for some schools, as it's just the opposite side of the same coin. For NPU, location is a disadvantage when it comes to recruiting Chicagoland suburban student-athletes, because most Chicagoland suburban kids don't want to go to school in the city. That can be worked around in other sports that don't require anywhere near the volume of new recruits each season. Even in a sport that requires a moderate number of new recruits per season the Chicagoland suburban thing is not prohibitive of success, as NPU's nationally-competitive men's soccer program has proved, for instance. But it's extraordinarily hard to work around it in football, a sport that is all but dead in the city on the high-school level. The question then becomes, how high can you raise the program above the long-established yardstick? Mike Conway snapped an 89-game conference losing streak, and had some minor success within the CCIW's second division over the course of his tenure that dwarfed the accomplishments of his three predecessors -- and he did it because he outrecruited them (namely, by establishing new recruiting footprints in Hawaii, American Samoa, and the Austin, TX area). That's the sort of yardstick by which John Thorne would be measured if he were to take over at NPU.

To sum up, nothing you've said really challenges the idea that recruiting is central to the task of coaching, and is therefore a definitive factor in determining that coach's competence. You've simply raised the question of what the benchmarks are for measuring a coach's success, which, to bring this back around, is what we have been debating ever since this board was started two weeks ago.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: kiko on May 09, 2020, 12:26:11 pm
To sum up, nothing you've said really challenges the idea that recruiting is central to the task of coaching, and is therefore a definitive factor in determining that coach's competence. You've simply raised the question of what the benchmarks are for measuring a coach's success, which, to bring this back around, is what we have been debating ever since this board was started two weeks ago.

But that's not what you said in your earlier post.  Your position was, verbatim, that being a good college basketball coach means acquiring good players.

I think what you have just shown, which largely concurs with my pushback, is that this is not necessarily an absolute.  There is most definitely a sliding scale at play when it comes to judging a coach's performance, and to some extent it hinges on performance versus expectations.  Some of those expectations are set by the school's situation or other external factors -- Titan Q touched on some of these earlier -- and some by a coach's prior performance.  Recruiting well within the constraints you are operating under does not always translate into landing good players.

There are a lot of outstanding coaches who we have not mentioned in this discussion because being good did not translate into landing players who can produce results at a national level.  And its appropriate that they are not in the conversation.  If you're sitting for a Mount Rushmore portrait, you probably need to be in a situation where you showed sustained success at a national level.  We will all differ on how we define that success (titles, sweet sixteen berths, tournament berths, win-loss percentage, players drafted, etc.)

From my POV, there is a Venn Diagram between the coaches who are in a situation where they can recruit good players and coaches who I would consider good or great.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: kiko on May 09, 2020, 12:29:11 pm
Also:

For NPU, location is a disadvantage when it comes to recruiting Chicagoland suburban student-athletes, because most Chicagoland suburban kids don't want to go to school in the city. That can be worked around in other sports that don't require anywhere near the volume of new recruits each season. Even in a sport that requires a moderate number of new recruits per season the Chicagoland suburban thing is not prohibitive of success, as NPU's nationally-competitive men's soccer program has proved, for instance. But it's extraordinarily hard to work around it in football, a sport that is all but dead in the city on the high-school level. The question then becomes, how high can you raise the program above the long-established yardstick?

If you didn't cut-and-paste this, you should save it away in a file somewhere.  :D  (Not that I disagree with any of it, BTW.)
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on May 09, 2020, 03:08:29 pm
To sum up, nothing you've said really challenges the idea that recruiting is central to the task of coaching, and is therefore a definitive factor in determining that coach's competence. You've simply raised the question of what the benchmarks are for measuring a coach's success, which, to bring this back around, is what we have been debating ever since this board was started two weeks ago.

But that's not what you said in your earlier post.  Your position was, verbatim, that being a good college basketball coach means acquiring good players.

Yes, it is. And George Barber and Chris Bunch acquire good players by SLIAC standards. That is why they win in the SLIAC.

I think what you have just shown, which largely concurs with my pushback, is that this is not necessarily an absolute.  There is most definitely a sliding scale at play when it comes to judging a coach's performance, and to some extent it hinges on performance versus expectations.  Some of those expectations are set by the school's situation or other external factors -- Titan Q touched on some of these earlier -- and some by a coach's prior performance.  Recruiting well within the constraints you are operating under does not always translate into landing good players.

I disagree that that's not an absolute. The very thing that makes a school "slide" on that sliding scale -- up or down -- is recruiting. As for constraints, as I said before, leagues tend to be set up among similar institutions for good reasons, and one of them is a perceived rough balance of potential competitiveness. Occasionally there are circumstances that simply can't be overcome by good recruiting; Caltech men's basketball (and numerous other sports) under the old faculty-controlled admissions system, North Park football, Principia men's basketball (to cite another SLIAC example; Principia only accepts students from a Christian Science background, and there are fewer than 50,000 adherents of Christian Science in the U.S. now, according to wiki), Finlandia and UMPI in just about every sport that doesn't involve snow. The more even the playing field, the more that the presence or lack of recruiting acumen comes to the fore in terms of a coach's performance relative to his peers. And sometimes a disadvantage that's been overcome can even help to shine a light on a coach's recruiting ability. I think in this case of Eric Bridgeland, who built Whitman into a national power in spite of the fact that Walla Walla, WA is in the middle of nowhere. It's not as bad as the remoteness problems that UMPI and Finlandia face, but it's bad enough to not only make Whitman's location a tough sell to prospects, but to also make getting to those prospects in the first place a difficult task if you coach the Blues.

What isn't absolute is the definition of "good." "Good" is a relative term. A good player by SLIAC standards is not necessarily a good player by national D3 standards (although he certainly could be; Shea Feehan of Eureka, for example, sure fit that bill a couple of years ago). It's a given that performance is dependent to some degree upon external factors, such as the ones Bob named, and that success, like player ability, is relative to level. Otherwise, there would be no such thing as a successful D3 coach, because any coach who won in this division would be winning with players who are by and large inferior to those on the roster of your garden-variety D1 mid-major and who would lose mightily if they were competing at that level.

(Some argue that that's actually the beauty of the promotion/relegation system of European soccer. If you prove that you're good at one level, you'll then get the chance to prove that you're also good one level higher the next season.)

There are a lot of outstanding coaches who we have not mentioned in this discussion because being good did not translate into landing players who can produce results at a national level.  And its appropriate that they are not in the conversation.  If you're sitting for a Mount Rushmore portrait, you probably need to be in a situation where you showed sustained success at a national level.  We will all differ on how we define that success (titles, sweet sixteen berths, tournament berths, win-loss percentage, players drafted, etc.)

Agreed. For example, I always thought that Bob Gillespie, the old Ripon coach who ran that program from 1980 to 2012, was a great coach. He finished up with a 510-248 (.673) record at Ripon, and a lot of very solid D3 players went through his program over the years. But the Red Hawks never advanced beyond the second round of the D3 tournament under his (or anybody else's) tutelage, and it was obvious why that happened -- Ripon simply didn't have national Top 10 teams, and that was a function of the league it was in and the recruiting strictures that that league had in place.

Gray Fox brought up Gregg Popovich the other day, a guy with five NBA championship rings as a head coach who has a date in Springfield, MA looming in his future. (Popovich, not Gray Fox. ;)) Popovich took Pomona-Pitzer from a Caltechesque laughingstock upon his arrival there in 1979 to a SCIAC title in 1986, the first such title for the Sagehens in 68 years. But, as Popovich related in an article about him in the school paper of the Claremont Schools a few months ago, when his '86 SCIAC-champion Sagehens went to the D3 tourney they were ripped to shreds by Nebraska Wesleyan in the first round, 89-59, and he became aware of the limitations he was operating under at this level.

(Popovich also made it clear that the reason why he turned Pomona-Pitzer around was because he burned the midnight oil when it came to recruiting.)

From my POV, there is a Venn Diagram between the coaches who are in a situation where they can recruit good players and coaches who I would consider good or great.

I don't see it that way. Coaches are measured upon results, and it's obvious that, regardless of the level of competition, there's a direct correlation between recruiting good players and successful results. The question lies in what constitutes a good player for that coach's level.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Gregory Sager on May 09, 2020, 03:10:01 pm
Also:

For NPU, location is a disadvantage when it comes to recruiting Chicagoland suburban student-athletes, because most Chicagoland suburban kids don't want to go to school in the city. That can be worked around in other sports that don't require anywhere near the volume of new recruits each season. Even in a sport that requires a moderate number of new recruits per season the Chicagoland suburban thing is not prohibitive of success, as NPU's nationally-competitive men's soccer program has proved, for instance. But it's extraordinarily hard to work around it in football, a sport that is all but dead in the city on the high-school level. The question then becomes, how high can you raise the program above the long-established yardstick?

If you didn't cut-and-paste this, you should save it away in a file somewhere.  :D  (Not that I disagree with any of it, BTW.)

I keep meaning to do so. In fact, I probably have ... and then promptly forgot where I filed it. ;)
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: thebear on May 10, 2020, 09:55:12 am
Sorry if I'm being incredibly parochial, but exactly why Jerry Welsh belongs on Mt. Rushmore. 

Coached in an isolated location, in the center of hockey culture, two D-I hockey programs within 10 miles of the campus.
Best athletes in the home area play hockey not basketball.  Not exactly a hotbed of college basketball.

Mentor to NBA Championship coach Rick Carlisle

He went to FIVE Championship games and every team was built with players that were too short, 8th man in HS, D-I rejects, role players playing major minutes, distributed scoring. No prep school guys on those teams unlike Amherst or Williams.

Those five teams produced 7 first or second team all americans.

He also was a single basket (on the road) away from SEVEN final four teams (Scranton 1983-84 and Clark 1986-87)

Only coach that has ever taken a team to the championship game playing every tournament game on the road (1982).

Thoughts???



Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: ronk on May 10, 2020, 02:00:19 pm
Sorry if I'm being incredibly parochial, but exactly why Jerry Welsh belongs on Mt. Rushmore. 

Coached in an isolated location, in the center of hockey culture, two D-I hockey programs within 10 miles of the campus.
Best athletes in the home area play hockey not basketball.  Not exactly a hotbed of college basketball.

Mentor to NBA Championship coach Rick Carlisle

He went to FIVE Championship games and every team was built with players that were too short, 8th man in HS, D-I rejects, role players playing major minutes, distributed scoring. No prep school guys on those teams unlike Amherst or Williams.

Those five teams produced 7 first or second team all americans.

He also was a single basket (on the road) away from SEVEN final four teams (Scranton 1983-84 and Clark 1986-87)

Only coach that has ever taken a team to the championship game playing every tournament game on the road (1982).

Thoughts???

     I'll add that to Bob Bessoir's credentials - that he defeated a strong candidate(Welsh) for Mt. Rushmore in an NCAA quarterfinal.  ;D  Bessoir also defeated Hixon(Amherst) in their only meeting(regular season) and was 1-1 versus Coach K(Army).  I would think any other coach in college basketball has, at best, a losing record vs Coach K.
    Bear, you have presented strong arguments for Jerry Welsh. The selection committee may have to go to the secondary criteria to choose the Final Four.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: SpringSt7 on May 10, 2020, 03:40:02 pm
In regards to the recruiting and limitations argument, isn't the counter to that to say that the coaches in this conversation should be able to showcase their coaching abilities enough to earn opportunities to move to better jobs where it is easier to recruit/win/etc.

I look at a guy like Dale Wellman at Nebraska Wesleyan, for example. He inherited a 2-23 program when he took over at Alfred. His 6th and final year at Alfred they went 19-8, clearly a good team but far from being national contenders. But his teams at Alfred scored nearly 100 points per game, and lead DIII in rebounds and offensive rebounds per game. He parlayed that success into getting the job at NWU, where his teams scored nearly 100 points per game, and were also at the top in rebounds and offensive rebounds, but did it with a more talented group of players that translated into national success.

I find that to be a great example of the sliding scale of recruiting vs. coaching and what not. Just as the old adage goes, "if you can play, they'll find you", if you coach, they can usually find you too.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Greek Tragedy on May 10, 2020, 08:44:51 pm
11 pages and 5400 views later, should we kind of come up with a Top 10 and then we can pare it down from there?
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: jayhawk on May 11, 2020, 08:43:37 pm
One correction

ronk said that Bob Bessoir defeated Hixon
not true I was on the Amherst Basketball Team with Jim Rehnquist
Hixon was not the Amherst coach when we lost to Bob Bessoir's team

ronk's comment
I'll add that to Bob Bessoir's credentials - that he defeated a strong candidate(Welsh) for Mt. Rushmore in an NCAA quarterfinal.  ;D  Bessoir also defeated Hixon(Amherst) in their only meeting(regular season) and was 1-1 versus Coach K(Army).  I would think any other coach in college basketball has, at best, a losing record vs Coach K.
    Bear, you have presented strong arguments for Jerry Welsh. The selection committee may have to go to the secondary criteria to choose the Final Four.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 02:05:11 pm by ronk »
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: ronk on May 12, 2020, 10:10:11 am
 Upon further review, Bessoir's victory over Amherst occurred during a Scranton championship year('76), a couple of years before Hixon began coaching Amherst('78); the Rushmore sculptor can chisel that from the secondary criteria of Bessoir's candidacy.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on May 12, 2020, 10:31:33 am
My top 10 Mount Rushmore candidates...

(alphabetical order)

* Bob Bessoir (Scranton)

* Dennie Bridges (Illinois Wesleyan)

* Bosko Djurickovic (North Park, Carthage)

* Mark Edwards (Wash U)

* Dave Hixon (Amherst)

* Steve Moore (Wooster)

* Glenn Robinson (Franklin & Marshall)

* Bo Ryan (UW-Platteville)

* Bob Semling (UW-Stevens Point)

* Jerry Welsh (Potsdam)
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: NEhoops on May 12, 2020, 01:52:20 pm
Titan Q - great list.

If we have to start trimming it down I would cut out Semling. After that who knows.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 12, 2020, 07:00:07 pm
(https://cdn.prestosports.com/action/cdn/img/mw=710/cr=n/d=a8pto/b0qscc2o94fszbfk.jpg)

Just days before the start of the 2019-20 season, Glenn Robinson announced he was retiring from coaching. He was the first domino to fall. Since then, more than 4,000-wins have been taken out of the active record books thanks to the retirements of a number of the division's and sport's best coaches.

In what is the first of a two-part May Podcast, Dave chats with some of those who announced their retirements since the season ended. What drove them to the decision to walk away? What will they remember about their careers (many at a single institution)? And will they still be part of the game?

Guests include:
- Dave Hixon, Amherst men's coach (42 seasons, 826 wins)
- Ken DeWeese, Mary Hardin-Baylor men's coach (21 seasons, 400 wins)
- Carol LaHaye, Randolph-Macon women's coach (38 season, 647 wins)
- Grey Giovanine, Augustana men's coach (21 seasons, 433 wins)

Dave also has a brief idea of what is being discussed when it comes to the coronavirus and the challenges institutions face both on campus and with athletics. Plus, the Hoopsville Notebook has updates on moving the three-point line, Regional Realignment/Expansion, and even the Wild Williams World of Sports.

You can listen to the podcast here: https://bit.ly/2YVyRnU

Hoopsville (http://www.d3hoopsville.com) broadcasts from the WBCA/NABC Studio. All guests are featured on the BlueFrame Technology Hoopsville Hotline. The offseason plan is to do a podcast each month. The shows will be audio-only leading up to the start of the 2020-21 when we will restart the video shows.

If you have questions, ideas, or want to interact with the show, feel free to send them to hoopsville@d3sports.com or use any of the social media options in the right-hand panel.

If you enjoy the show via the podcasts, choose your favorite avenue to listen and/or subscribe via the the following four avenues (click on the images when necessary):
SoundCloud: www.soundcloud.com/hoopsville

(https://cdn.prestosports.com/action/cdn/img/mw=300/mh=150/cr=n/d=40gkf/zp2t977dsfqmq2ng.jpg) (https://apple.co/2E9e0Bl)(https://cdn.prestosports.com/action/cdn/img/mw=300/mh=150/cr=n/d=40gkf/7jdya7ckqexrfad3.jpg) (http://bit.ly/2rFfr7Z)(https://cdn.prestosports.com/action/cdn/img/mw=300/mh=150/cr=n/d=40gzu/0qxioniqi7kizek9.jpg) (https://spoti.fi/2qoExnV)(https://cdn.prestosports.com/action/cdn/img/mw=300/mh=150/cr=n/d=40gkg/qlios5f6juz7tij9.jpg) (https://www.iheart.com/podcast/256-hoopsville-30984615/)(https://cdn.prestosports.com/action/cdn/img/mw=300/mh=150/cr=n/d=40gkf/otimp41swikeb9uf.jpg) (https://castbox.fm/app/castbox/player/id332395)(https://cdn.prestosports.com/action/cdn/img/mw=300/mh=150/cr=n/d=40gkg/vpaw3ejt1tsc9r48.jpg) (https://radiopublic.com/hoopsville-6nkZN8)

We also have the podcast now on Tune-In (https://tunein.com/podcasts/Sports--Recreation-Podcasts/Hoopsville-p1153539/) and others coming. We will update them once we have better abilities to do so.

Don't forget you can always interact with us:
Website: www.d3hoopsville.com
Twitter: @d3hoopsville (http://www.twitter.com/d3hoopsville) or #Hoopsville
Facebook: www.facebook.com/Hoopsville
Email: hoopsville@d3sports.com
Hoopsville Season Archive: www.team1sports.com/Hoopsville
YouTube: www.youtube.com/d3hoopsville
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 14, 2020, 02:52:45 pm
I got Pat Coleman, Ryan Scott, and Bob Quillman to join me for Part 2 of the May Hoopsville Podcast to talk about an historic year for retirements (on the men's side) and a bit of this Mt. Rushmore discussion. It actually turned out far better than I had hoped - it was a fun conversation. One of the better ones we've likely had in some time.

Editing now (some really odd tech issues today haha) and will get it posted as soon as tonight, but more likely tomorrow (midday).
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on May 15, 2020, 04:35:28 pm
(https://cdn.prestosports.com/action/cdn/img/mw=710/cr=n/d=ae2e5/6bam6n5k2dg094d2.jpg)

With the number of significant retirements on the men's side of Division III basketball, there is plenty to talk about in the month of May. Thus, we needed a "Part 2" this month.

On this "Hoopsville Podcast: May Edition (Part 2)", we talk about what is arguably one of the most significant retirement classes of coaches in the history of Division III - especially on the men's side of things.

Pat Coleman, Ryan Scott, and Bob Quillman join Dave McHugh to chat about those who retired, the number of wins and the high-level of success they had, and even if trying to have a Mt. Rushmore of DIII coaching who might be considered (some coaches you may have forgotten about are mentioned).

Plus - if not for the number of significant retirements, the biggest news in Division III off-season so far would likely be Eric Bridgeland picking up and moving to Southern California. Bridgeland joins Dave to talk about his Whitman program, the success, and the decision to start anew at Redlands and the SCIAC.

You can listen to the podcast here: https://bit.ly/2zGESua

Hoopsville (http://www.d3hoopsville.com) broadcasts from the WBCA/NABC Studio. All guests are featured on the BlueFrame Technology Hoopsville Hotline. The offseason plan is to do a podcast each month. The shows will be audio-only leading up to the start of the 2020-21 when we will restart the video shows.

If you have questions, ideas, or want to interact with the show, feel free to send them to hoopsville@d3sports.com or use any of the social media options in the right-hand panel.

If you enjoy the show via the podcasts, choose your favorite avenue to listen and/or subscribe via the the following four avenues (click on the images when necessary):
SoundCloud: www.soundcloud.com/hoopsville

(https://cdn.prestosports.com/action/cdn/img/mw=300/mh=150/cr=n/d=40gkf/zp2t977dsfqmq2ng.jpg) (https://apple.co/2E9e0Bl)(https://cdn.prestosports.com/action/cdn/img/mw=300/mh=150/cr=n/d=40gkf/7jdya7ckqexrfad3.jpg) (http://bit.ly/2rFfr7Z)(https://cdn.prestosports.com/action/cdn/img/mw=300/mh=150/cr=n/d=40gzu/0qxioniqi7kizek9.jpg) (https://spoti.fi/2qoExnV)(https://cdn.prestosports.com/action/cdn/img/mw=300/mh=150/cr=n/d=40gkg/qlios5f6juz7tij9.jpg) (https://www.iheart.com/podcast/256-hoopsville-30984615/)(https://cdn.prestosports.com/action/cdn/img/mw=300/mh=150/cr=n/d=40gkf/otimp41swikeb9uf.jpg) (https://castbox.fm/app/castbox/player/id332395)(https://cdn.prestosports.com/action/cdn/img/mw=300/mh=150/cr=n/d=40gkg/vpaw3ejt1tsc9r48.jpg) (https://radiopublic.com/hoopsville-6nkZN8)

We also have the podcast now on Tune-In (https://tunein.com/podcasts/Sports--Recreation-Podcasts/Hoopsville-p1153539/) and others coming. We will update them once we have better abilities to do so.

Don't forget you can always interact with us:
Website: www.d3hoopsville.com
Twitter: @d3hoopsville (http://www.twitter.com/d3hoopsville) or #Hoopsville
Facebook: www.facebook.com/Hoopsville
Email: hoopsville@d3sports.com
Hoopsville Season Archive: www.team1sports.com/Hoopsville
YouTube: www.youtube.com/d3hoopsville
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Northern_Explorer on October 21, 2020, 06:45:58 pm
This is more of a snapshot ranking than a Mt. Rushmore... but what do you think? Who's missing? Who's overrated? https://collegeathleticadvisor.com/inspire/

Top 5 "Programs That Inspire" (out of 20)

1. Wisconsin – Oshkosh (WI, NCAA Division 3)
2. NW Missouri State (MO, NCAA Division 2)
3. Williams College (MA, NCAA Division 3)
4. Azusa Pacific University (CA, NCAA Division 2)
5. University of Rochester (NY, NCAA Division 3)
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Dave 'd-mac' McHugh on October 23, 2020, 12:24:59 pm
Yeah .. I mean ... 'inspire'? That is a rather individualistic term that I don't think really gives us much per the best coaches in DIII argument. Furthermore, none of the DIIIs on there are there because of coaches we even considered. That isn't a knock, but UWO has had a few coaches in the last few years ... Williams is known as a revolving door of sorts ... and Rochester got up there from one coach in the Rushmore convo, but he hasn't been there in a long time now - the current coach, though, is doing very well for sure.
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Northern_Explorer on October 23, 2020, 02:43:09 pm
Yeah .. I mean ... 'inspire'? That is a rather individualistic term that I don't think really gives us much per the best coaches in DIII argument. Furthermore, none of the DIIIs on there are there because of coaches we even considered. That isn't a knock, but UWO has had a few coaches in the last few years ... Williams is known as a revolving door of sorts ... and Rochester got up there from one coach in the Rushmore convo, but he hasn't been there in a long time now - the current coach, though, is doing very well for sure.
Yes, I think it's a bit of misfit into the Mt Rushmore discussion, but I didn't really think it needed it's own topic either. There's quite a bit of overlap, though. Maybe a few of these folks might be more future contenders than current ones? But are there any programs that jump out at you as missing or particularly good fits? I mean, Yeshiva's coach doesn't make Mt. Rushmore yet, but what he's accomplished in Spanish Harlem is pretty amazing in my book...
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: Titan Q on December 30, 2020, 01:47:26 pm
My top 10 Mount Rushmore candidates...

(alphabetical order)

* Bob Bessoir (Scranton)

* Dennie Bridges (Illinois Wesleyan)

* Bosko Djurickovic (North Park, Carthage)

* Mark Edwards (Wash U)

* Dave Hixon (Amherst)

* Steve Moore (Wooster)

* Glenn Robinson (Franklin & Marshall)

* Bo Ryan (UW-Platteville)

* Bob Semling (UW-Stevens Point)

* Jerry Welsh (Potsdam)

Rest in peace, Coach Bessoir.

https://www.thetimes-tribune.com/sports/legendary-basketball-coach-bob-bessoir-dies-at-88/article_f76d6447-933e-53e1-8a2f-182d3866e5fc.html#utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
Title: Re: Mount Rushmore of D3 Coaches
Post by: fantastic50 on January 05, 2021, 10:03:31 am
Two coaches from this list, Bo Ryan and Steve Moore, are among the 2021 Naismith Hall of Fame nominees.  Also on the list is Ken Anderson, who had a long tenure at UWEC during the Bluegolds' pre-D3 days.

https://www.hoophall.com/news/naismith-memorial-basketball-hall-of-fame-announces-eligible-candidates-for-the-class-of-2021 (https://www.hoophall.com/news/naismith-memorial-basketball-hall-of-fame-announces-eligible-candidates-for-the-class-of-2021)