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Northeast Region / Re: NESCAC MBB
« Last post by middhoops on Today at 04:46:55 am »
Moderator? Please!
Chapman is buying up Old TOWN Orange. That must be where they got that from.
West Region football / Re: FB: Northwest Conference
« Last post by D O.C. on Today at 03:32:09 am »
+K, Monrovia Cat. Runner is my favorite grass field.

Swede, I'll not be surprised if you show up somewhere in a blue and gold hat. They really should present you with one.
Northeast Region / Re: NESCAC MBB
« Last post by AmherstStudent05 on Today at 02:19:46 am »
It is clear that most of the Board is sick of this particular line of discussion, so I hope that this might be my last post on the matter, but if we are going to get things "right" then there is a lot to clean up from PN's latest post.

First, I did point out that I had argued before the All-Conference selections were announced that I thought DR absolutely deserved First-Team All NESCAC honors.  However, contrary to the implication of your most recent post, I did not raise this bit of recent history in the hopes of earning "immunity" for my current or future arguments.  I was merely refuting your completely erroneous assertion that my (unchanging) view that DR should have been First Team All-NESCAC "rel[ied]" on his recent scholarship offer rather than his statistical accomplishments.  I argued back in February -- based on stats and my own observations -- that DR should have been a First Teamer.  Subsequent scholarship offers had nothing to do with it.  To assert or imply otherwise was an obvious error on your part.  This most recent comment only compounded this error.

To be clear, I have never asserted that John Beilein's interest in DR makes him an automatic First-Team selection.  Indeed, we all know that DR was not a First Team All-NESCAC selection.  Again, what I have said is that one would expect any NESCAC player offered by a Michigan to have displayed objective and subjective excellence at the NESCAC level (in addition to other traits) and that such excellence one would also expect to be rewarded with First Team honors.

Your Tom Killian example seems to rest on shaky assumptions.  As we seem to debate every February, it is not at all clear that NESCAC coaches base their all-conference selections only on regular season conference play. I think it is a fair assumption that conference play is the dominant factor, but I do not believe there are any formal directives in this regard. Indeed, as I have argued previously, I am pretty sure that, at the very least, NESCAC Tournament play is included in these deliberations.  As I believe I corrected you at the time, my understanding is that the final ballots are due after the NESCAC Championship game (whether some or all coaches actually wait till then is anyone's guess).

Also, I am no statistician, but I am not sure that the simple reordering  of games is as statistically plausible as you suggest given the sample sizes involved.  There are a lot of factors to consider here: disparity in playing time, competition, etc. 

However, one key aspect that you seem to be completely overlooking is that the conference games are not randomly distributed throughout the season but rather strategically concentrated towards the end of the season (but not the very end -- at least not for Amherst and Williams!).  In my mind, a sudden, sustained drop off in play by DR in January and February undoubtedly would have seriously affected my overall evaluation of him (even if he did turn things around during the NCAA Tournament).  My Exhibit 1, sadly, is Connor Green.  Connor finished the year with a 17.9 ppg on splits of 43.9/34.8/76.  But Connor struggled mightily (by his lofty standards at least) in conference play: 14.3/36.3/24.5/81.2.  I don't think you could argue that this drop off had a detrimental impact on our collective perception of Connor.  Again, don't get me wrong, I am thrilled that CG is a Jeff and I look forward to him lighting up the Conference next year, but this late season swoon unquestionably hurt his stock.  Part of what made Duncan's season so remarkable is that, for the most part at least, he steadily improved and rarely, if ever, had a prolonged slump.

Finally, speaking of poor logic, this idea that the fact that multiple top tier D1 programs were interested in offering DR renders my argument "untenable" is just plain strange.  This fact is in no way inconsistent with what I have been saying (not that it proves it either, to be sure).  To recap (and simplify) my view: In the ordinary course of life, top tier D1 programs don't even think about any NESCAC players.  Once in a blue moon, the NESCAC lands an individual with exceptional size, athleticism, and talent.  If that individual can prove his worth by establishing himself as a dominant d3/conference player on the hardwood, then some number of these coaches MIGHT offer him.  However, this is not some sliding scale.  That is, if 10 coaches offer DR, that does not mean, or really even suggest, that DR could have been 10% less efficient and walked away with 9 offers.  There is a (incredibly steep) threshold one needs to cross.  Once you cross it, you might attract offers.
West Region / Re: Northwest Conference
« Last post by Pinecone_Curtain on Today at 01:44:56 am »
Whitworth Basketball 2014 Recruiting Class:
Matt Staudacher   61 Junior PG                Simon Fraser University (Lake Washington HS Class of 2012 Kirkland, WA)
Simon Fraser University Highlights
Forrest Baker   67 RS-Sophomore F         Lewis & Clark State (Mead HS Class of 2012 Spokane, WA)
HS Highlights
Austin Damon   65 RS-Sophomore F       Northwest Nazarene (Lewis & Clark HS Class of 2012 Spokane, WA)
HS Highlights:
Alberto De Miguel 67 Freshman F          MacDuffie Prep School (Madrid, Spain)
Prep School Highlights:
Real Madrid Club Highlights:
Josh Thayer 59 Freshman PG                     Stanwood High School  (Seattle, WA)

A Buc Forever: Here's the official release.

Looks like the guys you said plus Derek Isaak, a RS Soph. transfer from NNU where he averaged 8.2 ppg and made nearly 42% from behind the arc. He reminds me a lot of someone Hayford would have recruited: small school, state he scored 44 points in the state championship. The kid can shoot. The last guy from ACH who came to Whitworth to play basketball worked out pretty well (Nate Dunham, who was the 1996 NCIC Player of the Year and a First Team NAIA Division II All-American).

I couldn't find a highlight package on him, but here is the state championship when he scored 44 points (he's wearing #22 for the white team).

Obviously I hope Whitworth continues the dominance, but this will be an interesting year for Logie since it will be his first without Hayford recruits. I don't think he has the talent that Hayford amassed, but we will see.
West Region football / Re: FB: Northwest Conference
« Last post by swede on Today at 01:16:34 am »
The players love playing on it. I think it is safer than turf. Over the years I have heard some funny comments, if not a perfect green hue it is not in good shape. Next time you are at UR, go stand in the end zone and you will the surface is well taken care of.
For what it's worth DOC enjoyed laying on the field at the runner when we were there watching MHB beat Redlands last season.  It is a nice grass field....which works well in the desert.....

Due to the extreme drought conditions in Southern Cal. the city has banned all watering of athletic fields. Sand will be put down to help cushion the field  ;D.
West Region football / Re: FB: Northwest Conference
« Last post by swede on Today at 01:11:43 am »
The players love playing on it. I think it is safer than turf. Over the years I have heard some funny comments, if not a perfect green hue it is not in good shape. Next time you are at UR, go stand in the end zone and you will the surface is well taken care of.
For what it's worth DOC enjoyed laying on the field at the runner when we were there watching MHB beat Redlands last season.  It is a nice grass field....which works well in the desert.....

Unless you're at UCLA ;D
West Region football / Re: FB: Northwest Conference
« Last post by swede on Today at 01:07:59 am »
Great article in the McMinnville news paper on the start up of George Fox football.
The Catdome is looking gooood! Like the purple "L", someday we will get the cat on the 50!

Went by tonight and they were grooming the field. GF field will be a nice one to win on. They've got the blue endzone and I like the Logo. Stadium is small, Press box is nice but not only will they fight the support posts but also the windows. Bleacher seating still needs to go in.

If you know anyone who has a food cart and would like to set up contact GF.

I still think we should call the stadium the Tindome ;D 
Northeast Region / Re: NESCAC MBB
« Last post by Panthernation on Today at 12:25:34 am »
This whole argument between GrabtheRim, AmherstStudent05, and PantherNation is all very academic and I don't entirely understand how we got to counter-factuals or debating whether Duncan Robinson deserved to make the first team. Overall I agree with AmherstStudent in his arguments and his incredulity at Robinson being offered a scholarship at such an outstanding basketball school. However I also think Duncan has shown enough and Beilein isn't crazy in offering a scholarship but I'll talk about that later.

PantherNation, this may sound crazy but I don't know if Beilein offers the scholarship if Robinson posts the numbers Killian posted. You have been the strongest proponent for how incredible the season Robinson had was so for you to then turn around and say that actually his production wasn't that far away from a second team All-NESCAC season is surprising. Even if Robinson had demonstrated in flashes his ability and put up Killian's numbers then we wouldn't be talking about him in the same way. He would be a freshman who came in and had a very fine season and would be primed to dominate the NESCAC next year. Instead we rightly look back at his season as one of the best we have seen in terms of efficiency if not sheer numbers. Beilein would also have a hard time looking at Robinson in the same light if he put up Killian's numbers. Yes tape is what Beilein is looking at, but if he puts up Killian numbers then he isn't looking at the same tape!

And look I think Robinson could have put up even better numbers and not been pursued by Michigan if Maker wasn't a former assistant of Beilein's just because Beilein wouldn't have trusted the D3 numbers.

You're right the conversation has been academic, but academic conversations should be gotten right. So let's try to do that.

First, we were the biggest proponents of Duncan Robinson's First-Team All-NESCAC candidacy. There's an important distinction here between what he did during NESCAC play (what we used as our primary determinant for our All-NESCAC picks) and what he did over the entire season, including NCAA Tournament play (which is what John Beilein could consider). Understanding that, there is no contradiction in pushing DR's First-Team qualifications when his NESCAC stat line (18.9 ppg, on 61/53/83) is significantly better than Killian's (14.8 ppg on 48/36/80). But while Duncan Robinson considerably outperformed Killian in NESCAC play, their season-long stat lines (Killian: 15.1 on 51/39/80 and Robinson: 17.1 on 56/45/87) are not all that different. Which gets us to the counterfactual: given that Robinson and Killian have similar season-long stats it's not that difficult to imagine a counterfactual scenario where Robinson's performances are distributed in a different way such that his great NESCAC performances took place out of conference and he is, in fact deserving of his Second-Team All-NESCAC selection. All this is to say that AS05's assertion that because John Beilein recruited Duncan Robinson makes him an automatic First-Team selection is misguided. It's just poor logic. His NESCAC stats already accomplished that. (And yes, AS05 argued DR was a snub from the get-go. That doesn't give him immunity to make bad arguments in the future).

And secondly, many people, including you, are contending that Duncan Robinson needed "every inch" of his statistical performance (and in your case, Maker's connection) to gain Beilein's attention. And yet, Beilein is far from the only powerhouse Division I coach to take notice. By Robinson's own admission, several ACC and Big 12 teams also expressed interest, but he narrowed it down to Michigan and Davidson. So DR has at least five major D1 programs interested in him and many of you still think not only did he need to have the same stat line, but also in the same order of games? That's simply not tenable.
Great Lakes Region / Re: MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association
« Last post by Bilk on Yesterday at 10:50:57 pm »
There's a robust conversation on the NESCAC board about Duncan Robinson with references to Spike Albrecht.  You Michigan fans might enjoy jumping in. :)
MIAA's been-there, done-that... Mike Gotfredson  :P
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