Author Topic: Future of Division III  (Read 589278 times)

Offline justafan12

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2505 on: February 18, 2019, 12:56:25 pm »
the NFCA poll, at all levels but especially in D3, should be thrown in a lake. It's only 8 voting coaches who clearly don't keep up with what's going on (nor should they be expected to, frankly, given their jobs) who just pick teams they've heard of or who their friends coach.

I have no idea if the coaches take their responsibility of voting seriously or not.  I know for the most part they have gotten the #1 ranked team correct for the past several years going all the way back to Tufts dominance. Do other sports have the same issue with a D3 poll?  I know volleyball, basketball, baseball and football have some organization that does a ranking; is it any better?

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2506 on: February 18, 2019, 01:02:45 pm »
I have had issues with WLAX and MLAX coaches polls for years - I'll never forget how the women kept a NESCAC team near the bottom of their Top 20 all season including before the NCAA playoffs despite a below .500 record ... "they are playing a tough schedule," yep and losing!

D3 basketball: men's poll hasn't existed for years, kind of got absorbed by D3hoops.com's poll; women's poll is eight coaches from each region. I don't think they do a great job, but they don't do a bad job. I think you need more opinions than one in each region to do that fairly.

Soccer is a joke. They basically to a poll for each region, then take the top X amount of teams plus one to fill in the Top 25. It is a completely bogus way of doing it. Sometimes the second or third team in a region isn't a Top 25 team, but in this system they are.
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Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2507 on: February 18, 2019, 09:36:01 pm »
Soccer is a joke. They basically to a poll for each region, then take the top X amount of teams plus one to fill in the Top 25. It is a completely bogus way of doing it. Sometimes the second or third team in a region isn't a Top 25 team, but in this system they are.

Of course, men's and women's soccer also have independent polls (the d3soccer.com polls) that are separate from the coaches polls.
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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2508 on: February 19, 2019, 09:42:25 am »
Also, you have to look at the total number of first-place votes in some of these coaches polls on a week-to-week basis. There have been somewhere it's sort of open to whoever votes in time - so a week-to-week comparison is worthless because it's not the same pool of voters week to week.

Besides, any poll that starts with a preseason or week one poll is inherently flawed as an objective measure of teams THAT season because they all have to start somewhat with how the teams did the year before ... which, from an NCAA selection standpoint for that season, is completely irrelevant. By the final quarter of a season, do national polls sometimes do a pretty good job*? Yes, depends on the poll. But there's a lot of educated guessing going on prior to that. National season-long polls are fun, but I'm glad they aren't used to determine NCAA selection and seeding.   

*This is also why we don't see regional rankings now until much later in the season than we used to. It ensures that there is a larger "in-season" sample to be used as the initial jumping off point.

Finally, a collaborative ranking - which allows for discussion of criteria, etc., in working toward a consensus - is a little more "wonk-proof" than a blind-voting poll.

(Again, I like polls! Polls are fun! But I'm glad they aren't used for selection and seeding.)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 09:47:01 am by sunny »

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2509 on: February 20, 2019, 12:23:50 pm »
Soccer is a joke. They basically to a poll for each region, then take the top X amount of teams plus one to fill in the Top 25. It is a completely bogus way of doing it. Sometimes the second or third team in a region isn't a Top 25 team, but in this system they are.

Of course, men's and women's soccer also have independent polls (the d3soccer.com polls) that are separate from the coaches polls.

To be fair ... and I once voted on those polls ... they don't provide the best point of view, either ... especially when they miss a few weeks early on.
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Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2510 on: February 20, 2019, 12:50:35 pm »
Agreed. But they're definitely a big step up from the mandatory slotting-by-region that the USC polls use.
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Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2511 on: February 20, 2019, 12:56:43 pm »
Agreed. But they're definitely a big step up from the mandatory slotting-by-region that the USC polls use.

Agreed - the auto slotting ... is embarrassing in my opinion. It's also lazy and caters to the cry-baby coaches who don't like the idea they might not get ranked.
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Offline Pat Coleman

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2512 on: February 20, 2019, 03:44:42 pm »
Agreed. But they're definitely a big step up from the mandatory slotting-by-region that the USC polls use.

Agreed - the auto slotting ... is embarrassing in my opinion. It's also lazy and caters to the cry-baby coaches who don't like the idea they might not get ranked.

Auto slotting is why D3hoops.com started a poll in the first place. That's how the NABC did its "poll" back in the 90s.
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Offline Ralph Turner

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2513 on: June 02, 2019, 02:38:53 pm »
From Charley Walters' column today

https://www.twincities.com/2019/06/01/charley-walters-twins-in-market-for-dallas-keuchel-craig-kimbrel/?utm_content=tw-PioneerPress&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_medium=social


Quote
Believe it or not, there has been a buzz that one MIAC school president wants to establish a Division IV for schools less inclined for elite competition.


This message board began in 2005 to discuss changes in the D-III/D-IV issues. Lots of things have changed since 2005, lots of new schools, several new conferences, a lot of Pool B bids that have vanished as conferences solidified their presence in the division.

Is there any speculation about whom are the schools/conferences to join a D-IV of that nature?
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 02:41:03 pm by Ralph Turner »

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2514 on: June 03, 2019, 10:51:38 am »
I wouldn't put any stock in that tidbit of sports gossip, Ralph. After all, he got his facts wrong in the entry right above it, the one about how St. Thomas would have to quadruple its athletics budget if it moved to D2. Plus, there's been no corroboration from any other source -- not even a hint of it, as far as I can tell -- that anybody else in a position of authority is talking about having another go at forming D4.
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Offline Ralph Turner

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2515 on: June 03, 2019, 12:38:40 pm »
I wouldn't put any stock in that tidbit of sports gossip, Ralph. After all, he got his facts wrong in the entry right above it, the one about how St. Thomas would have to quadruple its athletics budget if it moved to D2. Plus, there's been no corroboration from any other source -- not even a hint of it, as far as I can tell -- that anybody else in a position of authority is talking about having another go at forming D4.
Thanks. I could not imagine finding 10-12 conferences and 100 schools who would go along with it.

However, the logjam in football is still there, as Pat and Keith discussed in the most recent D3football.com podcast #237.  At the 6.5:1 bid allocation ratio, football is at 36.

That would make a 28 and 8 division possible, if 50-odd schools opted for a D-IV classification.


Link to podcast # 237.
http://www.d3blogs.com/d3football/2019/05/22/atn-podcast-237-plenty-shout-about/

Offline Pat Coleman

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2516 on: June 03, 2019, 02:10:05 pm »
Even if -- and we already have a big if -- that there is enough movement afoot to do this, there would still be the matter of amending the NCAA constitution to allow for a fourth division. Best of luck to all who are interested in trying.
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Offline Hawks88

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2517 on: June 04, 2019, 10:35:53 am »
I wouldn't put any stock in that tidbit of sports gossip, Ralph. After all, he got his facts wrong in the entry right above it, the one about how St. Thomas would have to quadruple its athletics budget if it moved to D2. Plus, there's been no corroboration from any other source -- not even a hint of it, as far as I can tell -- that anybody else in a position of authority is talking about having another go at forming D4.
Thanks. I could not imagine finding 10-12 conferences and 100 schools who would go along with it.

However, the logjam in football is still there, as Pat and Keith discussed in the most recent D3football.com podcast #237.  At the 6.5:1 bid allocation ratio, football is at 36.

That would make a 28 and 8 division possible, if 50-odd schools opted for a D-IV classification.


Link to podcast # 237.
http://www.d3blogs.com/d3football/2019/05/22/atn-podcast-237-plenty-shout-about/

Would D-IV have playoffs? What happens to the team that wins that, get booted out back to DIII?  ::)

Offline jknezek

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2518 on: June 04, 2019, 10:40:26 am »
I wouldn't put any stock in that tidbit of sports gossip, Ralph. After all, he got his facts wrong in the entry right above it, the one about how St. Thomas would have to quadruple its athletics budget if it moved to D2. Plus, there's been no corroboration from any other source -- not even a hint of it, as far as I can tell -- that anybody else in a position of authority is talking about having another go at forming D4.
Thanks. I could not imagine finding 10-12 conferences and 100 schools who would go along with it.

However, the logjam in football is still there, as Pat and Keith discussed in the most recent D3football.com podcast #237.  At the 6.5:1 bid allocation ratio, football is at 36.

That would make a 28 and 8 division possible, if 50-odd schools opted for a D-IV classification.


Link to podcast # 237.
http://www.d3blogs.com/d3football/2019/05/22/atn-podcast-237-plenty-shout-about/

Would D-IV have playoffs? What happens to the team that wins that, get booted out back to DIII?  ::)

The knock around on D-IV, back when it was actively being discussed and I don't really think that is the case now, was that there would not be playoffs.

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: Future of Division III
« Reply #2519 on: June 04, 2019, 12:45:18 pm »
The plan behind D4, as it was envisioned by those who were pushing for it a decade ago, was that there would be no national championships awarded in D4 sports. All NCAA-sponsored postseason play would be strictly regional, so that there would be multiple "champions" in every sport. This was to re-emphasize the locally-based aspect of D3 sports that the D4 advocates felt that D3 was getting away from. I'm sure that their dream was to hold a "championship" for which none of the participating student-athletes ever had to miss a class or spend a weeknight in a hotel room, whether that was realistic or not.

In Ralph's scenario of a D4 large enough to have a football playoff of eight teams, this would mean what would be in essence four regionally-based bowl games, all played on the same day in early-to-mid-November, that would end the D4 football season. Nobody would ever play more than an eleven-game season.
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