Author Topic: MBB: Midwest Conference  (Read 1360529 times)

Offline GK79

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14295 on: April 15, 2019, 03:29:47 pm »
All you're doing is looking at schedules and coming to the conclusion that SNC coaches are profligate with time and money when it comes to non-conference scheduling, but you don't really seem interested in the why behind that schedule-making.

No, I'm not reaching that conclusion at all.  Profligate with time and money have zero to do with my position.  How do you reach such a depiction of me when all along I have been saying that the non-conference game scheduling seems to be at odds with the stated reasoning to leave the MWC?  For me, it's not about money or time.  It's about the stated rationale for leaving one conference for another and how that seems to be incongruent with some of their NC scheduling.  I love the fact that the SNC track teams go to a big meet at KU, but don't whine about a couple of extra hours between MWC and NACC opponents when you do schedule such NC opponents and when only a relative handful of your athletes are making trips to all MWC opponents during a given academic year.

I've given you ample evidence that the move to the NACC is a sound one for St. Norbert from the standpoints of both time and money. I'm at a loss as to why you're persisting in this line of inquiry.

Because I'm not arguing time and money.  I'm not saying that you are wrong about the average length of time between MWC and NACC opponents for SNC.  I'm not saying that you are wrong about strategic scheduling. 

I'm arguing rationale for the move relative who SNC is actually scheduling in terms of NC opponents regardless of the why.  If travel costs and time are such a concern for SNC, then that should play out in NC scheduling as well.  There are plenty of closer options that could be likely scheduled for NC contests without traveling to schools like Calvin, Wartburg, KU, and Rose-Hulman. 




Offline Greek Tragedy

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14296 on: April 15, 2019, 04:28:46 pm »
I'm not speaking for Greg or anyone else.

Traveling is used as a reason to switch from the MWC to the NACC. If the overall travel log to all the NACC games is shorter than the MWC games, then it's a valid reason. NC games takes two to tango. Yes, there are teams that are within shouting distance (realtively speaking) of SNC. Why aren't they scheduling Lakeland, Marian, Edgewood and Concordia (WI) every year? Maybe they don't want to play those teams because they want "stiffer" competition. The MWC isn't very strong. To get a better shot at a Pool C bid, if they don't win the AQ, they need to raise their SOS and playing some of these teams will not help their SOS. Maybe these teams don't want to play SNC because they want to play team they can beat. If they think SNC is basically a guaranteed loss, they may not want to play them. It's already been mentioned that schedules and the willingness on both sides need to be there for teams to play NC games. It was also mentioned that if the conference schedule is lighter on travel, this may give SNC the luxury to play better competition further away. Instead of traveling once a week to a far-off conference opponent, they can travel somewhere afar one or two weekends throughout the whole season.
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Offline Pat Coleman

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14297 on: April 15, 2019, 04:52:20 pm »
GK79, you've cherry-picked out a couple of super random events here that aren't super indicative of anything, let alone what you are trying to make them sound like.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 04:54:37 pm by Pat Coleman »
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Offline GK79

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14298 on: April 16, 2019, 11:01:06 am »
GK79, you've cherry-picked out a couple of super random events here that aren't super indicative of anything, let alone what you are trying to make them sound like.

Cherry picked?  Random events?  I thought I was providing examples to buttress my argument.  How many more events would I need to find before they are no longer random?

For several reasons, I feel the stated reason for this move is a red herring for something else. 

The first of which is their non-conference scheduling.  If travel time and money is such a concern for them as members of the MWC, it just seems to me that they are going farther than they have to in order to play in NC games and contests.  I provided examples of that, but apparently, they are not enough for you to be considered anything other than random.

Second, only a relative handful of SNC athletes will actually travel more than twice to the most distant MWC opponents over the course of their four years at SNC. 

Third, the distances to square off against the most distant MWC opponents in away games/contests do not seem too terribly far to me relative to the travel done by many, many colleges and universities.  When you compare that against some of the NC scheduling SNC does like KU, Calvin, and Rose-Hulman, then it just becomes a bit of a headscratcher for me.


Offline Pat Coleman

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14299 on: April 16, 2019, 11:08:37 am »
It's more along the lines of golf and track not being a great window into the scheduling philosophy of an athletic department. Someone might travel a great distance to participate in the Kansas Relays just like they might do the same on the east coast to compete in the prestigious Penn Relays. Golf isn't sponsored by as many schools as basketball, soccer, baseball, etc. And there aren't a lot of midweek contests in either.
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Offline WW

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14300 on: April 16, 2019, 11:31:55 am »
GK79, you've cherry-picked out a couple of super random events here that aren't super indicative of anything, let alone what you are trying to make them sound like.

Cherry picked?  Random events?  I thought I was providing examples to buttress my argument.  How many more events would I need to find before they are no longer random?

For several reasons, I feel the stated reason for this move is a red herring for something else. 

The first of which is their non-conference scheduling.  If travel time and money is such a concern for them as members of the MWC, it just seems to me that they are going farther than they have to in order to play in NC games and contests.  I provided examples of that, but apparently, they are not enough for you to be considered anything other than random.

Second, only a relative handful of SNC athletes will actually travel more than twice to the most distant MWC opponents over the course of their four years at SNC. 

Third, the distances to square off against the most distant MWC opponents in away games/contests do not seem too terribly far to me relative to the travel done by many, many colleges and universities.  When you compare that against some of the NC scheduling SNC does like KU, Calvin, and Rose-Hulman, then it just becomes a bit of a headscratcher for me.

I don't consider your examples random. I consider them outliers, chosen out of argumentative desperation, that do little to support your argument. And you didn't provide better, closer options than the outliers you provided that served the same competitive purpose. I won't speak for anyone at SNC but it seems pretty logical to me that you go south to Rose-Hulman in mid-March because no one any closer offers an outdoor track meet in that time window. Kansas Relays is a prestigious meet that I doubt draws more than a couple high-performing individuals from SNC, hardly a whole team. Scratch your head over that all you want. It's common sense. Doesn't seem to be much of that in this rabbit hole.

Offline GK79

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14301 on: April 16, 2019, 02:56:03 pm »
I don't consider your examples random. I consider them outliers, chosen out of argumentative desperation, that do little to support your argument. And you didn't provide better, closer options than the outliers you provided that served the same competitive purpose. I won't speak for anyone at SNC but it seems pretty logical to me that you go south to Rose-Hulman in mid-March because no one any closer offers an outdoor track meet in that time window. Kansas Relays is a prestigious meet that I doubt draws more than a couple high-performing individuals from SNC, hardly a whole team. Scratch your head over that all you want. It's common sense. Doesn't seem to be much of that in this rabbit hole.

Of course those examples are outliers.  For most sports, most NC opponents are outliers in that they make up a small percentage of the overal schedule.  And, of course, I specifically identified the furthest outliers to bolster my argument.  Why shouldn't I?  Had I mentioned all those NC trips to the Twin Cities area, you (and others) likely would have claimed that those examples were weak because they were not far enough to bolster my argument.

I did refer to closer options when I mentioned some 20+ D3 schools within the state of Wisconsin alone that do not already belong to the MWC. 

Your Rose-Hulman example makes some sense.  So, why, then, does SNC also go that far in the dead of winter  (mid-January) for an indoor meet?

Offline Gregory Sager

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14302 on: April 17, 2019, 11:04:39 am »
Good grief, GK79. Give it up, already, and quit while you're behind.
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Offline Pat Coleman

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14303 on: April 17, 2019, 12:26:16 pm »
And, of course, I specifically identified the furthest outliers to bolster my argument. 

You understand that this is the very definition of cherry-picking.
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Offline GK79

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14304 on: April 17, 2019, 12:54:23 pm »
I didn't go to Google maps for the drive times, but I did discover that there are 20 coed D3 schools (22 women's programs) in the state of Wisconsin, plus several NAIA schools. 

Perhaps I should have mentioned D1 schools in WI as potential NC opponents for SNC.  https://www.snc.edu/athletics/pressrelease/5078/

Offline WW

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14305 on: April 17, 2019, 01:57:19 pm »
Can't say I've often seen such a committed demonstration of one's own willful ignorance. Tip of the cap to ya, GK.

Offline GK79

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14306 on: April 17, 2019, 02:35:11 pm »
Can't say I've often seen such a committed demonstration of one's own willful ignorance. Tip of the cap to ya, GK.

https://www.d3hockey.com/notables/2014-15/141025-st-norbert-vs-wisconsin-the-game-that-wasnt

Perhaps SNC should just make the jump to D1 instead of the NACC.   ;)

Offline sncdangler

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Re: MBB: Midwest Conference
« Reply #14307 on: Yesterday at 01:33:16 pm »
I don't consider your examples random. I consider them outliers, chosen out of argumentative desperation, that do little to support your argument. And you didn't provide better, closer options than the outliers you provided that served the same competitive purpose. I won't speak for anyone at SNC but it seems pretty logical to me that you go south to Rose-Hulman in mid-March because no one any closer offers an outdoor track meet in that time window. Kansas Relays is a prestigious meet that I doubt draws more than a couple high-performing individuals from SNC, hardly a whole team. Scratch your head over that all you want. It's common sense. Doesn't seem to be much of that in this rabbit hole.

Of course those examples are outliers.  For most sports, most NC opponents are outliers in that they make up a small percentage of the overal schedule.  And, of course, I specifically identified the furthest outliers to bolster my argument.  Why shouldn't I?  Had I mentioned all those NC trips to the Twin Cities area, you (and others) likely would have claimed that those examples were weak because they were not far enough to bolster my argument.

I did refer to closer options when I mentioned some 20+ D3 schools within the state of Wisconsin alone that do not already belong to the MWC. 

Your Rose-Hulman example makes some sense.  So, why, then, does SNC also go that far in the dead of winter  (mid-January) for an indoor meet?

Let's take a look at the locales of St. Norbert's track schedule, since you mentioned it. I am not including last chance meets since those are usually just a handful of athletes.

Indoor: Stevens Point, Ripon, Terre Haute/Bloomington, Ind., Whitewater, Ripon, Whitewater, Oshkosh, Monmouth, Ill. (conference)
Outdoor: Terre Haute, Ind., San Diego, Cal., Beloit, Waukesha, De Pere, Lawrence, Kan., De Pere, Appleton, De Pere

Other than the trips to the "big" meets to (I assume) face good competition, self-funded (again I assume) spring break trip and the indoor conference meet, St. Norbert is taking one trip out of state to Rose-Hulman to get in an early outdoor track meet when most of Wisconsin is still under a blanket of snow. With irresponsible scheduling like this I can see why they want to leave the MWC to save money.  ::)