Author Topic: FB: Liberty League  (Read 4057747 times)

Offline jmcozenlaw

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Re: FB: Liberty League
« Reply #51570 on: May 16, 2019, 09:58:25 am »
I am also a PA guy, little further north of Doylestown.  The PSAC enrollment numbers are really interesting, the Purple and Gold is double the enrollment of any other school.  They also do a great job of recruiting, the Lehigh Valley is chock full of great football, and many head south to WC.  Bloom also has some great alumni support, good friend of mine from high school is one of their top donors and huge advocate for the school.  I know a major draw is the low in state tuition, but how do you compare the level of play on the football field?  My impression, based on the local kids i see recruited, is that the upper echelon schools (Del Val, Muhlenberg, RPI, Wesley, Hobart, Brockport) would do very well in matchups, while the average schools (Moravian, Wilkes, Kings, Rochester) would get smashed.

Small world just got even smaller. If you are a little north of Doylestown and like great craft beer, head to Free Will Brewing in Perkasie or at Peddlers Village. I'll answer your question based on an answer to that question that I got from the head coach of the Andre Reed school.....................who was an assistant at the little school in Doylestown when the turnaround started and then became it's head coach.

The average schools that you cite would get smashed by even the bottom rung PSAC schools. The top PSAC schools would slaughter the average to below average D3 schools. remember, some of the better PSAC schools all have a handful of players who could play at the D1 level if they had the academic chops (now, not all players at D1 schools have the academic chops to be at their respective school........but they are another level of athlete.........see FSU's academic results for it's football team).

This particular coach told me that the DelVal teams from 2003 - 2005 (two national quarterfinal appearances) were better than any team he's had at the Andre Reed school. BUT, they would have gotten beat badly by the likes of I.U.P, the better Bloom teams, the great ESU teams, Cal U and Slippery Rock................even a couple of the Shipp teams.

He also told me (having played Mount Union twice) that the best, Western PSAC teams would beat ANY of the D3 teams, that includes MU, UWW and even today's UMHB, but these teams would beat most of the PSAC.

The big difference is usually size and depth in the trenches and the skill positions...................particularl y QB, RB and WR (what else is left? ;) )

He told me something else. He said to make a team of players who have gone on to the NFL from the PSAC and to do the same thing across the entire D3 landscape to really see the difference. AND, the PSAC is a middle of the road DII conference as well.

Bloom - Jahri Evans, Bob Tucker, Larry Webster
ESU - Mike Reichenbach
WCU - Joe Senser, Ralph Tamm, Lee Woodall
KU - Andre Reed, Joe Mobley, Bruce Harper, Doug Dennison
Cheyney - Andre Waters, James Williams
Millersville - Robb Riddick, Will Lewis
Shipp - Brent Grimes, John Kuhn, Rob Davis
Rock - Brandon Fusco
IUP - Jim Haslett
Cal U - Perry Kemp + 5 players on NFL rosters currently
Mercyhurst - Matthew Hatchette
Clarion - Reggie Wells, Alex Sandusky, Bruce Gossett

I know that I'm missing several players. Bloom had a monster stud RB from Bucks County (Jamar Brittingham) who I'm sure that your donor buddy would know, who was getting very serious NFL looks but his knee was toast by the end of his college career.

D3 as a whole certainly has had some great players make the next level, starting with Ali Marpet now killing it of course, Kenny Anderson, Billie 'White Shoes' Johnson, Joe Fields, Pierre Garcon and Cecil Shorts, Fred Jackson, London Fletcher along with several others. His point was you need to look at D3 and the sheer number of teams within it to come up with an NFL list......and that list is a bit smaller than that of just ONE middle-of-the-pack D2 conference.................and that it really does show the step up (in most, but not all cases) that it is from D3 to D2, especially the best D2 conferences AND the best D2 teams across the country. D2 has brought us Hall of Famer's Walter Payton, Gene Upshaw and Darrell Greene as well as studs like CB Tyrone Poole, RB Duane Thomas (of the hated Cowboys), DE Hugh Douglas (of the 'good guys') and LB Robert Brazile. All of these names were first round NFL picks. There have been something like 19, D2 first round picks in total. I'm not sure that D3 has ever had 1. That's the difference. The high end of D2 is quite a bit higher than the high end of D3. The middle-to-low blows out the same in D3, as should be expected. The best of D3 can take the middle-to-low end of D2 without a doubt. Some of the best D3 programs, in my eyes, are really like D2 programs in drag (UST, UMHB, the entire Wisconsin conference, etc.)

Offline Jonny Utah

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Re: FB: Liberty League
« Reply #51571 on: May 16, 2019, 10:31:27 am »
I am also a PA guy, little further north of Doylestown.  The PSAC enrollment numbers are really interesting, the Purple and Gold is double the enrollment of any other school.  They also do a great job of recruiting, the Lehigh Valley is chock full of great football, and many head south to WC.  Bloom also has some great alumni support, good friend of mine from high school is one of their top donors and huge advocate for the school.  I know a major draw is the low in state tuition, but how do you compare the level of play on the football field?  My impression, based on the local kids i see recruited, is that the upper echelon schools (Del Val, Muhlenberg, RPI, Wesley, Hobart, Brockport) would do very well in matchups, while the average schools (Moravian, Wilkes, Kings, Rochester) would get smashed.

Small world just got even smaller. If you are a little north of Doylestown and like great craft beer, head to Free Will Brewing in Perkasie or at Peddlers Village. I'll answer your question based on an answer to that question that I got from the head coach of the Andre Reed school.....................who was an assistant at the little school in Doylestown when the turnaround started and then became it's head coach.

The average schools that you cite would get smashed by even the bottom rung PSAC schools. The top PSAC schools would slaughter the average to below average D3 schools. remember, some of the better PSAC schools all have a handful of players who could play at the D1 level if they had the academic chops (now, not all players at D1 schools have the academic chops to be at their respective school........but they are another level of athlete.........see FSU's academic results for it's football team).

This particular coach told me that the DelVal teams from 2003 - 2005 (two national quarterfinal appearances) were better than any team he's had at the Andre Reed school. BUT, they would have gotten beat badly by the likes of I.U.P, the better Bloom teams, the great ESU teams, Cal U and Slippery Rock................even a couple of the Shipp teams.

He also told me (having played Mount Union twice) that the best, Western PSAC teams would beat ANY of the D3 teams, that includes MU, UWW and even today's UMHB, but these teams would beat most of the PSAC.

The big difference is usually size and depth in the trenches and the skill positions...................particularl y QB, RB and WR (what else is left? ;) )

He told me something else. He said to make a team of players who have gone on to the NFL from the PSAC and to do the same thing across the entire D3 landscape to really see the difference. AND, the PSAC is a middle of the road DII conference as well.

Bloom - Jahri Evans, Bob Tucker, Larry Webster
ESU - Mike Reichenbach
WCU - Joe Senser, Ralph Tamm, Lee Woodall
KU - Andre Reed, Joe Mobley, Bruce Harper, Doug Dennison
Cheyney - Andre Waters, James Williams
Millersville - Robb Riddick, Will Lewis
Shipp - Brent Grimes, John Kuhn, Rob Davis
Rock - Brandon Fusco
IUP - Jim Haslett
Cal U - Perry Kemp + 5 players on NFL rosters currently
Mercyhurst - Matthew Hatchette
Clarion - Reggie Wells, Alex Sandusky, Bruce Gossett

I know that I'm missing several players. Bloom had a monster stud RB from Bucks County (Jamar Brittingham) who I'm sure that your donor buddy would know, who was getting very serious NFL looks but his knee was toast by the end of his college career.

D3 as a whole certainly has had some great players make the next level, starting with Ali Marpet now killing it of course, Kenny Anderson, Billie 'White Shoes' Johnson, Joe Fields, Pierre Garcon and Cecil Shorts, Fred Jackson, London Fletcher along with several others. His point was you need to look at D3 and the sheer number of teams within it to come up with an NFL list......and that list is a bit smaller than that of just ONE middle-of-the-pack D2 conference.................and that it really does show the step up (in most, but not all cases) that it is from D3 to D2, especially the best D2 conferences AND the best D2 teams across the country. D2 has brought us Hall of Famer's Walter Payton, Gene Upshaw and Darrell Greene as well as studs like CB Tyrone Poole, RB Duane Thomas (of the hated Cowboys), DE Hugh Douglas (of the 'good guys') and LB Robert Brazile. All of these names were first round NFL picks. There have been something like 19, D2 first round picks in total. I'm not sure that D3 has ever had 1. That's the difference. The high end of D2 is quite a bit higher than the high end of D3. The middle-to-low blows out the same in D3, as should be expected. The best of D3 can take the middle-to-low end of D2 without a doubt. Some of the best D3 programs, in my eyes, are really like D2 programs in drag (UST, UMHB, the entire Wisconsin conference, etc.)

When watching the d2 vs d3 games or d-1aa vs d2 teams, the defensive speed always stood out to me.  Playing at Ithaca in the 1990s we played a slew of middle to lower tier d2 teams every year (Mansfield, AIC, CW Post, Mercyhurst, Albany, Springfield).  I remember Northeastern played AIC one of the years we also played AIC and the biggest difference was that AIC could not move the ball at all against NU's defense.  AICs defense didn't do horrible, but Northeastern's linebackers and dbacks were too fast and quick and tackled better than AIC could even come close to.  AIC did have a running back named Kevin Galliard who was d1 caliber.  I can't recall if he played against NU but he was the best running back I ever saw at the d2 or d3 level.  If you put Galliard on a good d3 team he would have put them to the elite level in my opinion (going to jmcozenlaw's point of d2 having top players overall if you looked at them in the aggregate)

(Edit I just looked it up, it was 1999 and a 2-9 Northeastern team beat AIC 44-7, and AIC went 9-2 and beat Ithaca that year 34-17 with Galliard rushing for 304 yards)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 10:56:24 am by Jonny Utah »

Online Oline89

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Re: FB: Liberty League
« Reply #51572 on: May 16, 2019, 11:00:43 am »
I am also a PA guy, little further north of Doylestown.  The PSAC enrollment numbers are really interesting, the Purple and Gold is double the enrollment of any other school.  They also do a great job of recruiting, the Lehigh Valley is chock full of great football, and many head south to WC.  Bloom also has some great alumni support, good friend of mine from high school is one of their top donors and huge advocate for the school.  I know a major draw is the low in state tuition, but how do you compare the level of play on the football field?  My impression, based on the local kids i see recruited, is that the upper echelon schools (Del Val, Muhlenberg, RPI, Wesley, Hobart, Brockport) would do very well in matchups, while the average schools (Moravian, Wilkes, Kings, Rochester) would get smashed.

Small world just got even smaller. If you are a little north of Doylestown and like great craft beer, head to Free Will Brewing in Perkasie or at Peddlers Village. I'll answer your question based on an answer to that question that I got from the head coach of the Andre Reed school.....................who was an assistant at the little school in Doylestown when the turnaround started and then became it's head coach.

The average schools that you cite would get smashed by even the bottom rung PSAC schools. The top PSAC schools would slaughter the average to below average D3 schools. remember, some of the better PSAC schools all have a handful of players who could play at the D1 level if they had the academic chops (now, not all players at D1 schools have the academic chops to be at their respective school........but they are another level of athlete.........see FSU's academic results for it's football team).

This particular coach told me that the DelVal teams from 2003 - 2005 (two national quarterfinal appearances) were better than any team he's had at the Andre Reed school. BUT, they would have gotten beat badly by the likes of I.U.P, the better Bloom teams, the great ESU teams, Cal U and Slippery Rock................even a couple of the Shipp teams.

He also told me (having played Mount Union twice) that the best, Western PSAC teams would beat ANY of the D3 teams, that includes MU, UWW and even today's UMHB, but these teams would beat most of the PSAC.

The big difference is usually size and depth in the trenches and the skill positions...................particularl y QB, RB and WR (what else is left? ;) )

He told me something else. He said to make a team of players who have gone on to the NFL from the PSAC and to do the same thing across the entire D3 landscape to really see the difference. AND, the PSAC is a middle of the road DII conference as well.

Bloom - Jahri Evans, Bob Tucker, Larry Webster
ESU - Mike Reichenbach
WCU - Joe Senser, Ralph Tamm, Lee Woodall
KU - Andre Reed, Joe Mobley, Bruce Harper, Doug Dennison
Cheyney - Andre Waters, James Williams
Millersville - Robb Riddick, Will Lewis
Shipp - Brent Grimes, John Kuhn, Rob Davis
Rock - Brandon Fusco
IUP - Jim Haslett
Cal U - Perry Kemp + 5 players on NFL rosters currently
Mercyhurst - Matthew Hatchette
Clarion - Reggie Wells, Alex Sandusky, Bruce Gossett

I know that I'm missing several players. Bloom had a monster stud RB from Bucks County (Jamar Brittingham) who I'm sure that your donor buddy would know, who was getting very serious NFL looks but his knee was toast by the end of his college career.

D3 as a whole certainly has had some great players make the next level, starting with Ali Marpet now killing it of course, Kenny Anderson, Billie 'White Shoes' Johnson, Joe Fields, Pierre Garcon and Cecil Shorts, Fred Jackson, London Fletcher along with several others. His point was you need to look at D3 and the sheer number of teams within it to come up with an NFL list......and that list is a bit smaller than that of just ONE middle-of-the-pack D2 conference.................and that it really does show the step up (in most, but not all cases) that it is from D3 to D2, especially the best D2 conferences AND the best D2 teams across the country. D2 has brought us Hall of Famer's Walter Payton, Gene Upshaw and Darrell Greene as well as studs like CB Tyrone Poole, RB Duane Thomas (of the hated Cowboys), DE Hugh Douglas (of the 'good guys') and LB Robert Brazile. All of these names were first round NFL picks. There have been something like 19, D2 first round picks in total. I'm not sure that D3 has ever had 1. That's the difference. The high end of D2 is quite a bit higher than the high end of D3. The middle-to-low blows out the same in D3, as should be expected. The best of D3 can take the middle-to-low end of D2 without a doubt. Some of the best D3 programs, in my eyes, are really like D2 programs in drag (UST, UMHB, the entire Wisconsin conference, etc.)

Wow, jmcozenlaw, awesome analysis.  I really needed some high level football talk in this off season.  First and foremost, check out Lost Tavern Brewing in Hellertown, great selection of craft beers, crowd is a little young....makes you feel younger. 
It is strange that the D2 programs in PA play at such a high level, but the academics are mediocre (I hate to generalize, because plenty of successful folks have graduated from Bloom, ESU, etc.).  It seems like the FCS schools (Lafayette, Lehigh, Bucknell) have the corner of the market on high level football + academics.  D3 has great academics plus good football (Muhlenberg, F&M, Dickinson-ish).  I try to steer kids to the best academic school they can get into, where they can play football at a high level....hence my son headed to NY

Offline Jonny Utah

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Re: FB: Liberty League
« Reply #51573 on: May 16, 2019, 11:04:01 am »
I am also a PA guy, little further north of Doylestown.  The PSAC enrollment numbers are really interesting, the Purple and Gold is double the enrollment of any other school.  They also do a great job of recruiting, the Lehigh Valley is chock full of great football, and many head south to WC.  Bloom also has some great alumni support, good friend of mine from high school is one of their top donors and huge advocate for the school.  I know a major draw is the low in state tuition, but how do you compare the level of play on the football field?  My impression, based on the local kids i see recruited, is that the upper echelon schools (Del Val, Muhlenberg, RPI, Wesley, Hobart, Brockport) would do very well in matchups, while the average schools (Moravian, Wilkes, Kings, Rochester) would get smashed.

Small world just got even smaller. If you are a little north of Doylestown and like great craft beer, head to Free Will Brewing in Perkasie or at Peddlers Village. I'll answer your question based on an answer to that question that I got from the head coach of the Andre Reed school.....................who was an assistant at the little school in Doylestown when the turnaround started and then became it's head coach.

The average schools that you cite would get smashed by even the bottom rung PSAC schools. The top PSAC schools would slaughter the average to below average D3 schools. remember, some of the better PSAC schools all have a handful of players who could play at the D1 level if they had the academic chops (now, not all players at D1 schools have the academic chops to be at their respective school........but they are another level of athlete.........see FSU's academic results for it's football team).

This particular coach told me that the DelVal teams from 2003 - 2005 (two national quarterfinal appearances) were better than any team he's had at the Andre Reed school. BUT, they would have gotten beat badly by the likes of I.U.P, the better Bloom teams, the great ESU teams, Cal U and Slippery Rock................even a couple of the Shipp teams.

He also told me (having played Mount Union twice) that the best, Western PSAC teams would beat ANY of the D3 teams, that includes MU, UWW and even today's UMHB, but these teams would beat most of the PSAC.

The big difference is usually size and depth in the trenches and the skill positions...................particularl y QB, RB and WR (what else is left? ;) )

He told me something else. He said to make a team of players who have gone on to the NFL from the PSAC and to do the same thing across the entire D3 landscape to really see the difference. AND, the PSAC is a middle of the road DII conference as well.

Bloom - Jahri Evans, Bob Tucker, Larry Webster
ESU - Mike Reichenbach
WCU - Joe Senser, Ralph Tamm, Lee Woodall
KU - Andre Reed, Joe Mobley, Bruce Harper, Doug Dennison
Cheyney - Andre Waters, James Williams
Millersville - Robb Riddick, Will Lewis
Shipp - Brent Grimes, John Kuhn, Rob Davis
Rock - Brandon Fusco
IUP - Jim Haslett
Cal U - Perry Kemp + 5 players on NFL rosters currently
Mercyhurst - Matthew Hatchette
Clarion - Reggie Wells, Alex Sandusky, Bruce Gossett

I know that I'm missing several players. Bloom had a monster stud RB from Bucks County (Jamar Brittingham) who I'm sure that your donor buddy would know, who was getting very serious NFL looks but his knee was toast by the end of his college career.

D3 as a whole certainly has had some great players make the next level, starting with Ali Marpet now killing it of course, Kenny Anderson, Billie 'White Shoes' Johnson, Joe Fields, Pierre Garcon and Cecil Shorts, Fred Jackson, London Fletcher along with several others. His point was you need to look at D3 and the sheer number of teams within it to come up with an NFL list......and that list is a bit smaller than that of just ONE middle-of-the-pack D2 conference.................and that it really does show the step up (in most, but not all cases) that it is from D3 to D2, especially the best D2 conferences AND the best D2 teams across the country. D2 has brought us Hall of Famer's Walter Payton, Gene Upshaw and Darrell Greene as well as studs like CB Tyrone Poole, RB Duane Thomas (of the hated Cowboys), DE Hugh Douglas (of the 'good guys') and LB Robert Brazile. All of these names were first round NFL picks. There have been something like 19, D2 first round picks in total. I'm not sure that D3 has ever had 1. That's the difference. The high end of D2 is quite a bit higher than the high end of D3. The middle-to-low blows out the same in D3, as should be expected. The best of D3 can take the middle-to-low end of D2 without a doubt. Some of the best D3 programs, in my eyes, are really like D2 programs in drag (UST, UMHB, the entire Wisconsin conference, etc.)

Wow, jmcozenlaw, awesome analysis.  I really needed some high level football talk in this off season.  First and foremost, check out Lost Tavern Brewing in Hellertown, great selection of craft beers, crowd is a little young....makes you feel younger. 
It is strange that the D2 programs in PA play at such a high level, but the academics are mediocre (I hate to generalize, because plenty of successful folks have graduated from Bloom, ESU, etc.).  It seems like the FCS schools (Lafayette, Lehigh, Bucknell) have the corner of the market on high level football + academics.  D3 has great academics plus good football (Muhlenberg, F&M, Dickinson-ish).  I try to steer kids to the best academic school they can get into, where they can play football at a high level....hence my son headed to NY

My kids are young, but I'm betting I won't have 400K sitting around in 10 years or so when my kids are ready for college, so I might need to push them to a good school that also offers good financial packages.  Or pray that Ithaca and like schools give out a lot of money or my kids get academic scholarships!

Online Oline89

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Re: FB: Liberty League
« Reply #51574 on: May 16, 2019, 11:11:36 am »
I am also a PA guy, little further north of Doylestown.  The PSAC enrollment numbers are really interesting, the Purple and Gold is double the enrollment of any other school.  They also do a great job of recruiting, the Lehigh Valley is chock full of great football, and many head south to WC.  Bloom also has some great alumni support, good friend of mine from high school is one of their top donors and huge advocate for the school.  I know a major draw is the low in state tuition, but how do you compare the level of play on the football field?  My impression, based on the local kids i see recruited, is that the upper echelon schools (Del Val, Muhlenberg, RPI, Wesley, Hobart, Brockport) would do very well in matchups, while the average schools (Moravian, Wilkes, Kings, Rochester) would get smashed.

Small world just got even smaller. If you are a little north of Doylestown and like great craft beer, head to Free Will Brewing in Perkasie or at Peddlers Village. I'll answer your question based on an answer to that question that I got from the head coach of the Andre Reed school.....................who was an assistant at the little school in Doylestown when the turnaround started and then became it's head coach.

The average schools that you cite would get smashed by even the bottom rung PSAC schools. The top PSAC schools would slaughter the average to below average D3 schools. remember, some of the better PSAC schools all have a handful of players who could play at the D1 level if they had the academic chops (now, not all players at D1 schools have the academic chops to be at their respective school........but they are another level of athlete.........see FSU's academic results for it's football team).

This particular coach told me that the DelVal teams from 2003 - 2005 (two national quarterfinal appearances) were better than any team he's had at the Andre Reed school. BUT, they would have gotten beat badly by the likes of I.U.P, the better Bloom teams, the great ESU teams, Cal U and Slippery Rock................even a couple of the Shipp teams.

He also told me (having played Mount Union twice) that the best, Western PSAC teams would beat ANY of the D3 teams, that includes MU, UWW and even today's UMHB, but these teams would beat most of the PSAC.

The big difference is usually size and depth in the trenches and the skill positions...................particularl y QB, RB and WR (what else is left? ;) )

He told me something else. He said to make a team of players who have gone on to the NFL from the PSAC and to do the same thing across the entire D3 landscape to really see the difference. AND, the PSAC is a middle of the road DII conference as well.

Bloom - Jahri Evans, Bob Tucker, Larry Webster
ESU - Mike Reichenbach
WCU - Joe Senser, Ralph Tamm, Lee Woodall
KU - Andre Reed, Joe Mobley, Bruce Harper, Doug Dennison
Cheyney - Andre Waters, James Williams
Millersville - Robb Riddick, Will Lewis
Shipp - Brent Grimes, John Kuhn, Rob Davis
Rock - Brandon Fusco
IUP - Jim Haslett
Cal U - Perry Kemp + 5 players on NFL rosters currently
Mercyhurst - Matthew Hatchette
Clarion - Reggie Wells, Alex Sandusky, Bruce Gossett

I know that I'm missing several players. Bloom had a monster stud RB from Bucks County (Jamar Brittingham) who I'm sure that your donor buddy would know, who was getting very serious NFL looks but his knee was toast by the end of his college career.

D3 as a whole certainly has had some great players make the next level, starting with Ali Marpet now killing it of course, Kenny Anderson, Billie 'White Shoes' Johnson, Joe Fields, Pierre Garcon and Cecil Shorts, Fred Jackson, London Fletcher along with several others. His point was you need to look at D3 and the sheer number of teams within it to come up with an NFL list......and that list is a bit smaller than that of just ONE middle-of-the-pack D2 conference.................and that it really does show the step up (in most, but not all cases) that it is from D3 to D2, especially the best D2 conferences AND the best D2 teams across the country. D2 has brought us Hall of Famer's Walter Payton, Gene Upshaw and Darrell Greene as well as studs like CB Tyrone Poole, RB Duane Thomas (of the hated Cowboys), DE Hugh Douglas (of the 'good guys') and LB Robert Brazile. All of these names were first round NFL picks. There have been something like 19, D2 first round picks in total. I'm not sure that D3 has ever had 1. That's the difference. The high end of D2 is quite a bit higher than the high end of D3. The middle-to-low blows out the same in D3, as should be expected. The best of D3 can take the middle-to-low end of D2 without a doubt. Some of the best D3 programs, in my eyes, are really like D2 programs in drag (UST, UMHB, the entire Wisconsin conference, etc.)

Wow, jmcozenlaw, awesome analysis.  I really needed some high level football talk in this off season.  First and foremost, check out Lost Tavern Brewing in Hellertown, great selection of craft beers, crowd is a little young....makes you feel younger. 
It is strange that the D2 programs in PA play at such a high level, but the academics are mediocre (I hate to generalize, because plenty of successful folks have graduated from Bloom, ESU, etc.).  It seems like the FCS schools (Lafayette, Lehigh, Bucknell) have the corner of the market on high level football + academics.  D3 has great academics plus good football (Muhlenberg, F&M, Dickinson-ish).  I try to steer kids to the best academic school they can get into, where they can play football at a high level....hence my son headed to NY

My kids are young, but I'm betting I won't have 400K sitting around in 10 years or so when my kids are ready for college, so I might need to push them to a good school that also offers good financial packages.  Or pray that Ithaca and like schools give out a lot of money or my kids get academic scholarships!

The financial packages that the private schools offer can be (surprisingly) quite good.  The % of kids that pay full bill is less than you would expect.  Or they can go to Princeton, Harvard, Yale for free... :D

Offline jmcozenlaw

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Re: FB: Liberty League
« Reply #51575 on: May 16, 2019, 09:04:44 pm »
I am also a PA guy, little further north of Doylestown.  The PSAC enrollment numbers are really interesting, the Purple and Gold is double the enrollment of any other school.  They also do a great job of recruiting, the Lehigh Valley is chock full of great football, and many head south to WC.  Bloom also has some great alumni support, good friend of mine from high school is one of their top donors and huge advocate for the school.  I know a major draw is the low in state tuition, but how do you compare the level of play on the football field?  My impression, based on the local kids i see recruited, is that the upper echelon schools (Del Val, Muhlenberg, RPI, Wesley, Hobart, Brockport) would do very well in matchups, while the average schools (Moravian, Wilkes, Kings, Rochester) would get smashed.

Small world just got even smaller. If you are a little north of Doylestown and like great craft beer, head to Free Will Brewing in Perkasie or at Peddlers Village. I'll answer your question based on an answer to that question that I got from the head coach of the Andre Reed school.....................who was an assistant at the little school in Doylestown when the turnaround started and then became it's head coach.

The average schools that you cite would get smashed by even the bottom rung PSAC schools. The top PSAC schools would slaughter the average to below average D3 schools. remember, some of the better PSAC schools all have a handful of players who could play at the D1 level if they had the academic chops (now, not all players at D1 schools have the academic chops to be at their respective school........but they are another level of athlete.........see FSU's academic results for it's football team).

This particular coach told me that the DelVal teams from 2003 - 2005 (two national quarterfinal appearances) were better than any team he's had at the Andre Reed school. BUT, they would have gotten beat badly by the likes of I.U.P, the better Bloom teams, the great ESU teams, Cal U and Slippery Rock................even a couple of the Shipp teams.

He also told me (having played Mount Union twice) that the best, Western PSAC teams would beat ANY of the D3 teams, that includes MU, UWW and even today's UMHB, but these teams would beat most of the PSAC.

The big difference is usually size and depth in the trenches and the skill positions...................particularl y QB, RB and WR (what else is left? ;) )

He told me something else. He said to make a team of players who have gone on to the NFL from the PSAC and to do the same thing across the entire D3 landscape to really see the difference. AND, the PSAC is a middle of the road DII conference as well.

Bloom - Jahri Evans, Bob Tucker, Larry Webster
ESU - Mike Reichenbach
WCU - Joe Senser, Ralph Tamm, Lee Woodall
KU - Andre Reed, Joe Mobley, Bruce Harper, Doug Dennison
Cheyney - Andre Waters, James Williams
Millersville - Robb Riddick, Will Lewis
Shipp - Brent Grimes, John Kuhn, Rob Davis
Rock - Brandon Fusco
IUP - Jim Haslett
Cal U - Perry Kemp + 5 players on NFL rosters currently
Mercyhurst - Matthew Hatchette
Clarion - Reggie Wells, Alex Sandusky, Bruce Gossett

I know that I'm missing several players. Bloom had a monster stud RB from Bucks County (Jamar Brittingham) who I'm sure that your donor buddy would know, who was getting very serious NFL looks but his knee was toast by the end of his college career.

D3 as a whole certainly has had some great players make the next level, starting with Ali Marpet now killing it of course, Kenny Anderson, Billie 'White Shoes' Johnson, Joe Fields, Pierre Garcon and Cecil Shorts, Fred Jackson, London Fletcher along with several others. His point was you need to look at D3 and the sheer number of teams within it to come up with an NFL list......and that list is a bit smaller than that of just ONE middle-of-the-pack D2 conference.................and that it really does show the step up (in most, but not all cases) that it is from D3 to D2, especially the best D2 conferences AND the best D2 teams across the country. D2 has brought us Hall of Famer's Walter Payton, Gene Upshaw and Darrell Greene as well as studs like CB Tyrone Poole, RB Duane Thomas (of the hated Cowboys), DE Hugh Douglas (of the 'good guys') and LB Robert Brazile. All of these names were first round NFL picks. There have been something like 19, D2 first round picks in total. I'm not sure that D3 has ever had 1. That's the difference. The high end of D2 is quite a bit higher than the high end of D3. The middle-to-low blows out the same in D3, as should be expected. The best of D3 can take the middle-to-low end of D2 without a doubt. Some of the best D3 programs, in my eyes, are really like D2 programs in drag (UST, UMHB, the entire Wisconsin conference, etc.)

Wow, jmcozenlaw, awesome analysis.  I really needed some high level football talk in this off season.  First and foremost, check out Lost Tavern Brewing in Hellertown, great selection of craft beers, crowd is a little young....makes you feel younger. 
It is strange that the D2 programs in PA play at such a high level, but the academics are mediocre (I hate to generalize, because plenty of successful folks have graduated from Bloom, ESU, etc.).  It seems like the FCS schools (Lafayette, Lehigh, Bucknell) have the corner of the market on high level football + academics.  D3 has great academics plus good football (Muhlenberg, F&M, Dickinson-ish).  I try to steer kids to the best academic school they can get into, where they can play football at a high level....hence my son headed to NY

Thanks my friend!! It's funny that you mention Hellertown. One of my favorite places is a place called Braveheart. Good beers on tap and good food. I've watched a few NCAA Tournament games from there. I will have to check out Lost Tavern Brewing. Thanks for the tip.

Like you, I am always looking to talk football......................especiall y during this dark May thru mid-August timeframe!!

Offline The Mole

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« Reply #51576 on: May 17, 2019, 02:31:33 pm »
Damn, the world just got even smaller. I live in the same town as the HC of AR school. Met him a few times a few years ago, his kids are younger than my son but played in the same little league. Totally agree with his assessment that a top level D3 can beat a middling D2 or even low rung FCS team. I experienced it myself as a player on both sides of the coin in the late 80s and early 90s. The players are bigger, faster and stronger now, but the levels remain relative. I have listed the enrollment data of all the PSAC schools below as of 2016 and I added percentage up or down in enrollment since 2010 in parentheses--I know its a bit dated, so I am not sure how much it has changed--but very revealing especially as we discuss the haves versus the have nots and who is out punching their weight class based on number of scholarships and enrollment. Interesting stuff....Gives you an indicator of who is going to close/merge.
Bloom 9658 (-4.3%) CAL 7553 (-19.6%) Cheyney 746 (-53%--Lincoln U has eaten their lunch), Clarion 5224 (-28.6%) ESU 6830 (-7.5%)  Edinboro 6181 (-28.5%) IUP 13114 (-13.3%) Kutztown 8513 (-20.5%) Lock Haven 4220 (-22.6%)
Mansfield 2209 (-35.2%) Millersville 7927 (-9.2%) Shippensburg 6989 (-16.1%) Slippery Rock 8881 (0.3%)
West Chester 17006 (17.4%)
You could see ESU and Bloom merge, Cheyney will sadly eventually close, Clarion & Edinboro could merge in Slippery Rock, Cal and IUP could merge, Kutztown and Millersville also and merge Lock Haven and Mansfield or close them. That would be ALOT of cost savings.
Some major $$ decisions to be made.
TAKE THE ROAD LESS TRAVELED

Offline Bartman

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Re: FB: Liberty League
« Reply #51577 on: May 22, 2019, 03:38:13 pm »
Recently released Street and Smith College football rankings, authored by Keith McMillan has Ithaca at no.17 and RPI at No. 19....pretty lofty predictions for the LL and probably due to the impressive run by RPI last year in the playoffs. Alfred was picked for No. 17 and best in Empire. No mention of Brockport in the rankings nor a certain QB transfer to Ithaca.
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Offline Caz Bombers

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Re: FB: Liberty League
« Reply #51578 on: May 22, 2019, 04:03:44 pm »
Keith McMillan, there's a throwback, Caz remembers when he was a columnist here.

Offline Ice Bear

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Re: FB: Liberty League
« Reply #51579 on: May 22, 2019, 09:14:38 pm »
O.k. who is getting the boot from the LL? Thank goodness the Pumpkinheads had kind of a "down" year last season...too much success and you'll find your ass without a conference.

Saw a perfect reaction on FB. Went something like,
Quote
How soft is this? My hope is the MIAC champion gets sent to St. Thomas in the first round of the NCAA tournament every year.
dlip would love to see this come to fruition.
There's only one place that makes Shocktown look good...that's Troylet.

Offline Caz Bombers

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Re: FB: Liberty League
« Reply #51580 on: May 22, 2019, 11:19:13 pm »
O.k. who is getting the boot from the LL? Thank goodness the Pumpkinheads had kind of a "down" year last season...too much success and you'll find your ass without a conference.

Saw a perfect reaction on FB. Went something like,
Quote
How soft is this? My hope is the MIAC champion gets sent to St. Thomas in the first round of the NCAA tournament every year.
dlip would love to see this come to fruition.

if Stevens hadn't left the E8 for travel reasons, it might have happened to them at some point in the coming decade.

Online Oline89

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Re: FB: Liberty League
« Reply #51581 on: May 23, 2019, 12:08:06 pm »
The LL really seems to have come through a similar crisis a few years ago with a tougher/smaller/more competitive league.  At this point, it sure seems that at least 4 teams (who knows what happens with Buff St this season) have equal chances of being LL champs. 

Offline ITH radio

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Re: FB: Liberty League
« Reply #51582 on: May 23, 2019, 12:39:12 pm »
It was the same about a decade plus ago. During the 2000s Hobart, RPI and Union had some epic games, all winning the conference and ncaa playoff appearances along the way.
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Online Oline89

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Re: FB: Liberty League
« Reply #51583 on: May 23, 2019, 01:27:11 pm »
With all the angst going on in the MIAC, i thought of some general football questions.  First of all, if a team decides to go D1 or 2 is it mandatory that they offer athletic scholarships in all sports?  I know it is allowed, but is it mandatory?  Secondly, has there ever been a study of the financial burden on a school when comparing the amount offered in athletic scholarships versus the same amount that would have been given away in "grants"?  I know the Patriot league in FCS had their own solution to adding scholarhips 5- 6 years ago.

Offline Caz Bombers

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Re: FB: Liberty League
« Reply #51584 on: May 23, 2019, 01:46:25 pm »
The LL really seems to have co. me through a similar crisis a few years with a tougher/smaller/more competitive league.  At this point, it sure seems that at least 4 teams (who knows what happens with Buff St this season) have equal chances of being LL champs.

I maintain that we're still in some danger because I remain convinced UR football doesn't have long to live. Small roster, expensive school, no real tradition of winning.