Author Topic: 2019 NCAA Tournament  (Read 4181 times)

Offline ronk

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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament
« Reply #60 on: March 22, 2019, 02:33:22 pm »
 There is some aspect of iRONy that Shelby Rupp, now a national college women's champion, is from the town(Milan,IN) that was celebrated as the small-town state champion in the movie Hoosiers.

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament
« Reply #61 on: March 22, 2019, 02:59:21 pm »
Per the comment about a previous title (their first) being vacated due to a violation - that was a screw up on TMU's side. They admitted it. They didn't do their due diligence. That has no translation on them winning two more titles since. It certainly didn't help them with relationships within the PAC or finding a new conference home in DIII, but it has no bearing on the program Hans built at TMU nor the players, as Gordon mentioned, who played for that program.

And to be a full member of DIII, they cannot offer scholarships to anyone until they are out of DIII. They are perfectly welcome to battle for titles if eligible.
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Offline Enginerd

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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament
« Reply #62 on: March 22, 2019, 10:32:49 pm »
Not in my mind.

Consider the following...

- Madison Temple, who was unquestionably the best player in the country, also won the Jostens Trophy because she excels in the class room, too. That's very much in keeping with the Division III student athlete model.

- Shelby Rupp was TMU's next best player. Like Temple, she played her whole career as a Division III athlete. The decision to move from D3 to NAIA was partly born of necessity (TMU couldn't find a conference) and occurred between her junior and senior years. She didn't come to TMU because of hopes of a scholarship, which TMU will be able to offer in NAIA.  Same goes for Michaela Ware and Kelly Clapper who are seniors. The juniors on team, Emily Schultz and Kaela Saner, will play one year of NAIA ball or at least be eligible to do so. But I assume they didn't have any idea that TMU would be in NAIA when they made her college decision.

A lot of schools have some kind of institutional advantage that other schools consider unfair. Someone pointed out to me that Bowdoin benefited from playing 21 home games (compared to Thomas More's 11), including the game against Amherst that determined the NESCAC regular season title, NESCAC tournament and the first four rounds of the NCAA Tournament. Others have complained to me that NESCAC schools can do more in financial aid because of their endowments and need-blind approach to financial aid.

My take is that all schools have institutional advantages and disadvantages of some nature. How much you think they matter depends on your point of view, and usually depends on how much the team in question is winning.

In the case of the NESCAC schools, it actually has less to do with the money/endowment than one would think. There is a HUGE difference in the prestige of the education, job/graduate school placement, and career opportunities, at least initially, at a school like Bowdoin or especially Amherst, compared to, say, Trine or Thomas More. The NESCAC schools can attract Division II and Division I-level talent because families, especially those families with high-achieving girls, will consider "playing down" for the better environment and superior education. THAT'S why these schools can keep it rolling year after year. I have an old friend from college whose granddaughter, who had multiple D-I offers, chose a NESCAC school, and got practically no financial aid due to the family's finances. THAT"S the ticket in Division III - high academics. You will have the occasional Wilmington or Millikin, where they had elite coaching with a great batch of local kids that only come around once per generation - then you'll have the high-academic schools who can attract superior talent and stay at the top over a long period of time - then you have the Wisconsin state schools with their ridiculous built-in advantages - then there's Thomas More.

Offline Enginerd

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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament
« Reply #63 on: March 22, 2019, 10:47:48 pm »
Given that I'm a Bowdoin sports fan with all admitted bias, I reckon this question will sound like sour grapes...  But are Thomas More's D3 achievements at all suspect given they're moving up to the NAIA division next season...and I think I read their 2015 national title was vacated due to alleged recruiting violations?  Please provide any perspective that you can to help my understanding.

We'll never really know. It's all on each school's honor that they do things the right way. In Division III, you are not allowed/supposed to "target" athletes that you want (with financial aid) to try to entice them. Thomas More DOES have, I am told, certain scholarships that are available to ALL students from within the diocese (or something like that, I do not remember exactly), and if one of those kids happens to be a great basketball player, so be it. Same with minority scholarships at the better academic schools. Where you run into problems - is when a program is allowed to "choose two per year" (or insert any number)- where the coaching staff can identify a number of recruits they really want and the admissions/Financial Aid departments do their best to entice those recruits through the financial aid process. It's easy to mathematically hide this from the NCAA. I watched the Final, and came away shaking my head at the utterly ridiculous athleticism, length, and talent that Thomas More possesses. I'm not accusing them of anything untoward, but I'd LOVE to know what Thomas More's best players are paying to go to school there, or what they promised their 2018 recruits would happen to their financial aid after the season, or even if anything would NEED to happen - but ultimately it's none of my business and you can't go accusing schools just because they have a great team-it diminishes the hard work of their players and coaches and virtually un-provable...

Offline Ralph Turner

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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament
« Reply #64 on: March 22, 2019, 11:10:36 pm »
Not in my mind.

Consider the following...

- Madison Temple, who was unquestionably the best player in the country, also won the Jostens Trophy because she excels in the class room, too. That's very much in keeping with the Division III student athlete model.

- Shelby Rupp was TMU's next best player. Like Temple, she played her whole career as a Division III athlete. The decision to move from D3 to NAIA was partly born of necessity (TMU couldn't find a conference) and occurred between her junior and senior years. She didn't come to TMU because of hopes of a scholarship, which TMU will be able to offer in NAIA.  Same goes for Michaela Ware and Kelly Clapper who are seniors. The juniors on team, Emily Schultz and Kaela Saner, will play one year of NAIA ball or at least be eligible to do so. But I assume they didn't have any idea that TMU would be in NAIA when they made her college decision.

A lot of schools have some kind of institutional advantage that other schools consider unfair. Someone pointed out to me that Bowdoin benefited from playing 21 home games (compared to Thomas More's 11), including the game against Amherst that determined the NESCAC regular season title, NESCAC tournament and the first four rounds of the NCAA Tournament. Others have complained to me that NESCAC schools can do more in financial aid because of their endowments and need-blind approach to financial aid.

My take is that all schools have institutional advantages and disadvantages of some nature. How much you think they matter depends on your point of view, and usually depends on how much the team in question is winning.

In the case of the NESCAC schools, it actually has less to do with the money/endowment than one would think. There is a HUGE difference in the prestige of the education, job/graduate school placement, and career opportunities, at least initially, at a school like Bowdoin or especially Amherst, compared to, say, Trine or Thomas More. The NESCAC schools can attract Division II and Division I-level talent because families, especially those families with high-achieving girls, will consider "playing down" for the better environment and superior education. THAT'S why these schools can keep it rolling year after year. I have an old friend from college whose granddaughter, who had multiple D-I offers, chose a NESCAC school, and got practically no financial aid due to the family's finances. THAT"S the ticket in Division III - high academics. You will have the occasional Wilmington or Millikin, where they had elite coaching with a great batch of local kids that only come around once per generation - then you'll have the high-academic schools who can attract superior talent and stay at the top over a long period of time - then you have the Wisconsin state schools with their ridiculous built-in advantages - then there's Thomas More.

The roster appears to be filled with local kids...

http://www.thomasmoresaints.com/sports/wbkb/2018-19/roster

Offline Ralph Turner

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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament
« Reply #65 on: March 22, 2019, 11:20:55 pm »
We have seen similar elite coaching in the ASC, with local talent.

Julie Goodenough led Hardin-Simmons at the turn of the millenium with local talent. She knocked on the door of the Final Four for years. She made it to Okie State, but now is having success at Abilene Christian.

Chris Kielsmeier went undefeated at Howard Payne in 2008 with local talent.  He moved on to success at Wayne State College in Nebraska where he went 237-72 over 10 years. He just moved to Cleveland State this year.

I am inclined to believe the "local talent/  elite coaching" scenario.

Offline Enginerd

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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament
« Reply #66 on: March 22, 2019, 11:34:52 pm »
Not in my mind.

Consider the following...

- Madison Temple, who was unquestionably the best player in the country, also won the Jostens Trophy because she excels in the class room, too. That's very much in keeping with the Division III student athlete model.

- Shelby Rupp was TMU's next best player. Like Temple, she played her whole career as a Division III athlete. The decision to move from D3 to NAIA was partly born of necessity (TMU couldn't find a conference) and occurred between her junior and senior years. She didn't come to TMU because of hopes of a scholarship, which TMU will be able to offer in NAIA.  Same goes for Michaela Ware and Kelly Clapper who are seniors. The juniors on team, Emily Schultz and Kaela Saner, will play one year of NAIA ball or at least be eligible to do so. But I assume they didn't have any idea that TMU would be in NAIA when they made her college decision.

A lot of schools have some kind of institutional advantage that other schools consider unfair. Someone pointed out to me that Bowdoin benefited from playing 21 home games (compared to Thomas More's 11), including the game against Amherst that determined the NESCAC regular season title, NESCAC tournament and the first four rounds of the NCAA Tournament. Others have complained to me that NESCAC schools can do more in financial aid because of their endowments and need-blind approach to financial aid.

My take is that all schools have institutional advantages and disadvantages of some nature. How much you think they matter depends on your point of view, and usually depends on how much the team in question is winning.

In the case of the NESCAC schools, it actually has less to do with the money/endowment than one would think. There is a HUGE difference in the prestige of the education, job/graduate school placement, and career opportunities, at least initially, at a school like Bowdoin or especially Amherst, compared to, say, Trine or Thomas More. The NESCAC schools can attract Division II and Division I-level talent because families, especially those families with high-achieving girls, will consider "playing down" for the better environment and superior education. THAT'S why these schools can keep it rolling year after year. I have an old friend from college whose granddaughter, who had multiple D-I offers, chose a NESCAC school, and got practically no financial aid due to the family's finances. THAT"S the ticket in Division III - high academics. You will have the occasional Wilmington or Millikin, where they had elite coaching with a great batch of local kids that only come around once per generation - then you'll have the high-academic schools who can attract superior talent and stay at the top over a long period of time - then you have the Wisconsin state schools with their ridiculous built-in advantages - then there's Thomas More.

The roster appears to be filled with local kids...

http://www.thomasmoresaints.com/sports/wbkb/2018-19/roster

Local kids that, for one reason or another are choosing Thomas More over the numerous D2, NAIA, and even D-I schools within 150 miles of that area...

Offline truenorth

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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament
« Reply #67 on: March 25, 2019, 08:10:56 am »
I appreciate all the comments that were added following my post.  It helps to broaden my perspective on the perceived relative advantages and disadvantages associated with academically elite vs. religious. vs. schools with a strong local draw and elite coach, etc.

Offline ronk

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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament
« Reply #68 on: March 25, 2019, 09:03:25 am »
I appreciate all the comments that were added following my post.  It helps to broaden my perspective on the perceived relative advantages and disadvantages associated with academically elite vs. religious. vs. schools with a strong local draw and elite coach, etc.

 And another major factor, at least in the Mid-Atlantic area, is the instate tuition break for residents of SUNY or NJAC schools, and to a lesser degree, PA state schools, vs private school tuition. While the PA state schools are D2, the combo of partial basketball scholarships with reduced in-state tuition makes them a factor in D3 PA private school recruiting.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2019, 12:36:37 pm by ronk »

Offline Enginerd

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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament
« Reply #69 on: March 25, 2019, 12:23:21 pm »
I appreciate all the comments that were added following my post.  It helps to broaden my perspective on the perceived relative advantages and disadvantages associated with academically elite vs. religious. vs. schools with a strong local draw and elite coach, etc.

 And another major factor, at least in the Mid-Atlantic area, is the instate tuition break for residents of SUNY or NJAC schools vs private school tuition.

No "elite" coach has EVER won a title with mediocre talent...

Offline Dave 'd-mac' McHugh

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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament
« Reply #70 on: March 26, 2019, 12:13:32 pm »
I appreciate all the comments that were added following my post.  It helps to broaden my perspective on the perceived relative advantages and disadvantages associated with academically elite vs. religious. vs. schools with a strong local draw and elite coach, etc.

 And another major factor, at least in the Mid-Atlantic area, is the instate tuition break for residents of SUNY or NJAC schools, and to a lesser degree, PA state schools, vs private school tuition. While the PA state schools are D2, the combo of partial basketball scholarships with reduced in-state tuition makes them a factor in D3 PA private school recruiting.

Not as much as people would like to lead on. I was talking to a "state school" coach recently and they mentioned how they lost a top recruit to a "private school" because with the discounts, the privates were cheaper (by $10k per year) than the state school.

I hear this argument from coaches on both sides and both are right and both are wrong. Yes, the "sticker price" for privates is far higher, but they have the ability to reduce the pricing in numerous ways (I heard recently something like 5% of students actually pay the full sticker price at most private colleges). Yes, the "sticker price" for state colleges is lower, but they can't do any changes to those prices unless it is out of state and offering in-state (which Frostburg will do with it's DII move, should it be approved).

BTW - the reason people are so confused when it comes to York is because of their "sticker price." They basically did away with the "here is our price, but here is our discount" game and just told everyone it costs X amount to come here. Guess who just did this recently? Albright. They get rid of the "game" as it where and just tell everyone their basic price (usually a third to half the previous "sticker price") and go from there.

Yes, states have "lower" tuitions to some degree, but that doesn't mean the privates are always out of the conversation. Depending on who you talk to, they will spin it a certain way. That's why I talk to both sides and figure out the real game. :)

The entire recruiting field is both fascinating and ridiculously complicated ... depending on the school, the departments (admissions and athletics), the programs, the coaches, etc. Everyone has their niche and everyone has their excuses.
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Offline gordonmann

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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament
« Reply #71 on: March 26, 2019, 02:48:59 pm »
We discussed this point at the beginning of this season and the cost figures show that State schools in the Pennsylvania market -- the market Ronk specifically references -- are definitely cheaper than private schools, including York. It's not a theoretical difference or matter of how you present the numbers.

http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=749.msg1879214#msg1879214

Private schools' ability to reduce the cost of admission through financial aid also varies significantly by college. A regional college like Wilkes ($44 million endowment) or Arcadia ($68 million) cannot afford the same packages that a school like Bowdoin ($1.5 billion) or Amherst ($2.2 billion) can, short of a wealthy contributor who loves that particular program.

Ronk can probably speak more directly to Scranton's ability ($170 million endowment) to use financial aid to reduce the net cost of attending their college -- and make it easier for borderline D2 athletes to go there -- but I'm guessing the private school/public school differentiation is a real determinant in who ultimately decides to go there, especially if you're a New York state native who can go to a place like SUNY New Paltz for less than $8,000 a year.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 02:52:37 pm by gordonmann »

Offline ronk

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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament
« Reply #72 on: March 26, 2019, 05:03:54 pm »
 4 of my prospects started for Geneseo this season and, for at least 2 of them, in-state tuition vs the private school financial package was a major factor.

Offline saratoga

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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament
« Reply #73 on: March 26, 2019, 07:24:44 pm »

The difference between public's vs. privates in the recruiting wars is very real.

At a school that costs over 50k per year, maybe they'll come up with 10k in grants but if you're also looking at any SUNY school, without any TAP or PELL awards the most you'll be paying for tuition, fees, books & room & board is 25k. Huge difference. Throw in some financial aid & the gap gets even larger.

One way to try & work around it is to recruit kids that attend private high schools where the parents are already over the sticker shock from when the kids entered in 7th. or 8th. grade.

Just from the perspective of Scranton's women's roster between this year & last, they have kids that attended the following schools with the respective yearly cost of that school in parentheses, (working from least expensive to most expensive).

*Archbishop Ryan (8,000k)
*Archbishop Carroll (9,500k)
*St. Francis Prep (10k)
*Gwynedd Mercy Academy (20,000k)
*Springside Chesnut Hill (40k)
*Saddle River Day School (40k)
*Gill St. Bernard's (40k)
*Morristown-Beard School (recruit for class of 23'- 41K) and, last but certainly not least...
*Poly Prep NYC (51k)

I know the Jesuit's love bringing the dollars in but I'm not so sure they share it quite as freely.

Therefore, one way around that seems to be recruit in areas where financial aid not is going to be the largest determining factor for someone's son or daughter ultimately deciding to attend school A over school B.

I think when you check on NESCAC schools, you'll find an even greater proportion of kids coming from feeder prep schools where the college may actually be less than the high school.

Offline Enginerd

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Re: 2019 NCAA Tournament
« Reply #74 on: March 27, 2019, 07:22:35 am »

The difference between public's vs. privates in the recruiting wars is very real.

At a school that costs over 50k per year, maybe they'll come up with 10k in grants but if you're also looking at any SUNY school, without any TAP or PELL awards the most you'll be paying for tuition, fees, books & room & board is 25k. Huge difference. Throw in some financial aid & the gap gets even larger.

One way to try & work around it is to recruit kids that attend private high schools where the parents are already over the sticker shock from when the kids entered in 7th. or 8th. grade.

Just from the perspective of Scranton's women's roster between this year & last, they have kids that attended the following schools with the respective yearly cost of that school in parentheses, (working from least expensive to most expensive).

*Archbishop Ryan (8,000k)
*Archbishop Carroll (9,500k)
*St. Francis Prep (10k)
*Gwynedd Mercy Academy (20,000k)
*Springside Chesnut Hill (40k)
*Saddle River Day School (40k)
*Gill St. Bernard's (40k)
*Morristown-Beard School (recruit for class of 23'- 41K) and, last but certainly not least...
*Poly Prep NYC (51k)

I know the Jesuit's love bringing the dollars in but I'm not so sure they share it quite as freely.

Therefore, one way around that seems to be recruit in areas where financial aid not is going to be the largest determining factor for someone's son or daughter ultimately deciding to attend school A over school B.

I think when you check on NESCAC schools, you'll find an even greater proportion of kids coming from feeder prep schools where the college may actually be less than the high school.

Very true Saratoga - I'd be willing to bet that there are not a lot of working-class kids populating NESCAC rosters.