Author Topic: FB: Northern Athletics Collegiate Conference  (Read 1297797 times)

AndOne

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Re: FB: Northern Athletics Collegiate Conference
« Reply #6210 on: August 01, 2019, 08:32:26 pm »
Know it's already been discussed, but we got Don Beebe!  :o

Don't get me wrong, Ponx was doing an all right job with the program. Going 5-5 in your 5th year isn't great (And I'd like to think he expected more as well.) Most wins in a season for AU during his tenure: 6 (2016; Co-NACC champions, no playoff appearance.) Apparently the seniors, along with some other Spartans, left the end-of-the-season meeting once they were informed of the school's decision and I respect them for standing behind their coach. But hopefully the FR, SO and JR players stick around long enough to hear Coach Beebe out before they transfer. Otherwise it's looking like a rough transition period is ahead. Fingers crossed it isn't.

The amazing news is, with the name recognition and pedigree, Don Beebe is going to be able to sit across from top IL recruits' living rooms and compete with the likes of North Central, Illinois Wesleyan, etc. Excited to see where my alma mater can go from here with Don Beebe at the helm!

With all due respect to AU, I sincerely doubt whether they will present much of a challenge recruiting wise when competing for kids also considering NCC, IWU, etc., Don Beebe or not.
Additionally, when you factor in the academic component, the advantage that those other schools enjoy only increases.

Just posting this so everyone knows what AndOne's original opinion was before all the cries of "recruiting violation." A prominent player (already at NCC) chose AU over NCC, most likely in part to Don Beebe being the head coach.

Again, according to me: "The amazing news is, with the name recognition and pedigree, Don Beebe is going to be able to sit across from top IL recruits' living rooms and compete with the likes of North Central, Illinois Wesleyan, etc. Excited to see where my alma mater can go from here with Don Beebe at the helm!"
According to AndOne: "With all due respect to AU, I sincerely doubt whether they will present much of a challenge recruiting wise when competing for kids also considering NCC, IWU, etc., Don Beebe or not."

Just accept your opinion was wrong and move on, AndOne. It's almost football season! No use crying over spilled recruits . . . to Don Beebe at AU  ;)

Rhythm,

Evidently, in addition to logical thinking, your reading comprehension needs a little work. YOU are the only one here that mentioned “recruiting violation.” Go back and read the 3rd paragraph of my post again. This time, pay particular attention to the words I underlined in that paragraph 👀. Despite your failure to answer the questions I posed with regard to the sequence of events in this case, I’m willing to give Beebe the benefit of the doubt.

And yes, there are a multitude of reasons why a kid might choose Aurora over IWU or NCC. However, you need to face the facts and realize that neither better football nor better academics will be making an appearance on that list, Beebe or no Beebe. Those are the facts.

I hope AU has a good season, and assume AU will make the playoffs this year so I’ll extend my congratulations in advance.

In closing, I do have one question——Now that AU has become Cam Moore’s third school in three years after they completed a major coup and “recruited” him away from NCC——-Why doesn’t Moore’s name appear on the Spartans just posted 2019 roster list?  Has yet another school “recruited” him away from AU?  ???  ;)
« Last Edit: August 01, 2019, 08:41:27 pm by AndOne »

Offline wally_wabash

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Re: FB: Northern Athletics Collegiate Conference
« Reply #6211 on: August 02, 2019, 12:05:22 pm »
Wally & MUC,

I agree 100% that a student-athlete is entitled to enroll at any school to which they can qualify academically. Freedom of choice, right?
However, I’m sure that you will agree that in cases involving a transfer, as opposed to a kid being recruited straight out of HS, that there are certain rules the school doing the “recruiting” has to play by.
Whether we like it or not, the NCAA feels who called/contacted who first or who called/contacted who when is important. That’s why they have rules against a school calling or contacting a student-athlete or his family when that student is already attending a different school. Before the student who is playing at school A can be contacted by school B, he first has to inform his current coach/school of his desire/intent to transfer. I’m not sure if he has to name the other school or not, but there is definitely a set routine that has to be followed and a form that has to be signed. Once that’s done, school B is free to make contact, and the kid is free to go wherever, as you stated, he can be admitted. The assurance the rules were followed is all I’m looking for.

I’m pretty sure that you would want those rules followed if a kid was playing for Wabash or Mt. Union. I doubt you would be real happy if another school first called or contacted a kid, or one of his family members, playing at your school before your student-athlete informed his coach/school of his desire to transfer and gave his approval for contact by the other school.

As Pat said, it’s completely understandable if a kid wants to play for a former pro, especially if he has had some type of previous relationship with the man. However, in this case, Rhythm21 makes it sound like Coach Beebe just swooped in and plucked Cam Moore right out from under NCC’s nose with no regard for any of the established rules concerning transfers. What he describes is a situation that could be construed as poaching/tampering by the NCAA. I doubt that was the case. But because of how the situation was described by Rhythm21, it would be nice to have the assurance the rules were followed. That’s all. I think you would want that same assurance in the case of a Wabash or Mt. Union player.  :)

Yes, technically there are rules, but I have very little confidence that these rules around release and contact permissions are 1) beneficial to the student athlete in any way, shape, form or fashion and 2) strictly adhered to by pretty much any program that does any kind of significant business with transferring students.  How enforceable is this except in the most egregious and careless of situations?

I would like to believe that students that transfer away from Wabash to go play elsewhere did it the right way (which I guess we'll define here as IAW the NCAA's contact and release rules), but I'm not naive enough to think or believe that somebody transferring away from Wabash never had a conversation with another coach (or coach's designee) before they were technically supposed to.  And I'm not even mad about it.  I'm willing to accept that it happens if it means a student-athlete is at a place that is better for him/her.  I'd be fine to see these rules vanish because all they seem to do is restrict the freedom of a student-athlete in order to protect...coaches?  Teams?  I don't know.  Like I really don't know what the point of these rules are except to seize control of a student's choice. 

This is probably less of a thing in D3 because, I believe, in D3 S-As are allowed to self release.  They don't have to get permission, but they are supposed to file some paperwork saying that they intend to leave to go play somewhere else and are going to engage with other programs.  Even that, IMO, is one more piece of administration that we could all just do without. 
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Offline USee

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Re: FB: Northern Athletics Collegiate Conference
« Reply #6212 on: August 02, 2019, 02:13:28 pm »
Kids can go anywhere they want in D3. This kid, going from NCC to Aurora, smells fishy at best, regardless of the circumstances.
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Offline wally_wabash

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Re: FB: Northern Athletics Collegiate Conference
« Reply #6213 on: August 02, 2019, 03:15:56 pm »
Kids can go anywhere they want in D3. This kid, going from NCC to Aurora, smells fishy at best, regardless of the circumstances.

Kids can go wherever they want in D3, but this one is fishy?  I'm not sure those sentences square. 
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Offline Ryan Stoppable

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Re: FB: Northern Athletics Collegiate Conference
« Reply #6214 on: August 02, 2019, 04:16:58 pm »
I hope AU has a good season, and assume AU will make the playoffs this year so I’ll extend my congratulations in advance.

I assume there would be about seven other schools that would take exception with that assumption. Unless there are things I'm missing that I'll only find out in Kickoff 2019 (cheap plug ;D - but seriously, get it), this season seems like it ought to be even more wide open than the NACC usually is.
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Offline USee

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Re: FB: Northern Athletics Collegiate Conference
« Reply #6215 on: August 02, 2019, 04:37:05 pm »
Kids can go anywhere they want in D3. This kid, going from NCC to Aurora, smells fishy at best, regardless of the circumstances.

Kids can go wherever they want in D3, but this one is fishy?  I'm not sure those sentences square.

So preseason is when you want to start this year Wally? Ok. Didn't you attend and graduate from a reputable institution of higher learning? How hard can it be to understand the idea that this transfer is objectively allowed but subjectively could be unethical.  I have no facts here but starting wide receivers for a top 10 school don't usually mysteriously transfer to a program that hasn't done much but MAY be on the rise.  There is a story here we don't know. Maybe the kid's mom teaches at Aurora so tuition is free, maybe Don Beebe is his godfather, or maybe someone whispered in his ear all season about how he wasn't being used at NCC enough, I have no idea, but I am guessing there is more to this than meets the eye. Mostly speculation.
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AndOne

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Re: FB: Northern Athletics Collegiate Conference
« Reply #6216 on: August 02, 2019, 05:48:10 pm »
Also, on a parallel track with USee’s “fishy” thoughts, this is something we see a fair amount of on the basketball side which is kids attending multiple schools throughout their college careers spurred by the belief that they are overlooked and are really pro prospects rather than solid D3 level athletes.
They often harbor false beliefs that transferring to another school will increase their visibility. Often their hope is they will eventually end up at a D1 where a pro scout might notice them, or at a lower level school where someone on staff has some connection to the pros. The “fishy” component in the equation is that these type kids are often more concerned with attempting to fulfill their totally unrealistic expectations of reaching the pros than they are with academics. They only do what’s minimally necessary to remain eligible in order to continue playing. And, if they can be convinced that transferring to another school will increase their visibility and chance at the pros, however unrealistic, they won’t hesitate for one second before transferring.

As far as D3 kids being able to go where they want, this is basically true. However, there ARE minimal rules in place that are supposed to be followed when transferring from one D3 to another. I say “minimal” because not much is required, and kids can “self-release.” But, they ARE supposed to first complete a form titled Permission To Contact: Self-Release.

13.1.1.2

An athletics staff member or other representative of the institution’s athletic interests shall not make contact in any manner with the student-athlete of another NCAA or NAIA four-year collegiate institution, directly or indirectly, without first obtaining written permission to do do, regardless of who makes the initial contact. If permission is not granted, the second institution shall not encourage the transfer. If permission is granted, all applicable NCAA recruiting rules apply.

* This rule also applies to parents and forbids coaches to contact them as well as their kids.
For instance, before receiving a Self Release Form, a coach from school B can’t whisper in the ear of the parents of a student-athlete at school A that if their son transferred to school B, that he (the school B coach) could or might be able to, by using various connections, help the student fulfill his dream of playing in the pros.  ;)

I believe this rule is in place to prevent schools from “poaching” another school’s student-athletes.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2019, 06:11:11 pm by AndOne »

Offline ncc_fan

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Re: FB: Northern Athletics Collegiate Conference
« Reply #6217 on: August 04, 2019, 12:00:00 am »
Moore's 2018 receiving stats:

OpponentRecYdsTDLong
Lake Forest644013
Wash U425015
North Park   41507
Wheaton656021
Augustana571120
Carroll2807
Carthage751014
Elmhurst6122030
Green Weenies675125
Millikin----
Hanover438014
Bethel4106136
Totals54611336

Offline wally_wabash

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Re: FB: Northern Athletics Collegiate Conference
« Reply #6218 on: August 06, 2019, 09:27:37 am »
I think we're in agreement that one program actively recruiting/poaching is a generally crummy thing to do.  I think that rule is generally unenforceable and relies on the people running the programs to behave honorably.  Or at least not on the blurry edge of the rules.  I definitely don't think the answer would be more rules and restrictions placed on the players under the lame guise of policing coach-to-player communications. 

Find this take and more in my upcoming five part print series Catch and Self-Release: The Cameron Moore Story.
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Offline Rhythm21

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Re: FB: Northern Athletics Collegiate Conference
« Reply #6219 on: August 08, 2019, 03:52:18 pm »
Know it's already been discussed, but we got Don Beebe!  :o

Don't get me wrong, Ponx was doing an all right job with the program. Going 5-5 in your 5th year isn't great (And I'd like to think he expected more as well.) Most wins in a season for AU during his tenure: 6 (2016; Co-NACC champions, no playoff appearance.) Apparently the seniors, along with some other Spartans, left the end-of-the-season meeting once they were informed of the school's decision and I respect them for standing behind their coach. But hopefully the FR, SO and JR players stick around long enough to hear Coach Beebe out before they transfer. Otherwise it's looking like a rough transition period is ahead. Fingers crossed it isn't.

The amazing news is, with the name recognition and pedigree, Don Beebe is going to be able to sit across from top IL recruits' living rooms and compete with the likes of North Central, Illinois Wesleyan, etc. Excited to see where my alma mater can go from here with Don Beebe at the helm!

With all due respect to AU, I sincerely doubt whether they will present much of a challenge recruiting wise when competing for kids also considering NCC, IWU, etc., Don Beebe or not.
Additionally, when you factor in the academic component, the advantage that those other schools enjoy only increases.

Just posting this so everyone knows what AndOne's original opinion was before all the cries of "recruiting violation." A prominent player (already at NCC) chose AU over NCC, most likely in part to Don Beebe being the head coach.

Again, according to me: "The amazing news is, with the name recognition and pedigree, Don Beebe is going to be able to sit across from top IL recruits' living rooms and compete with the likes of North Central, Illinois Wesleyan, etc. Excited to see where my alma mater can go from here with Don Beebe at the helm!"
According to AndOne: "With all due respect to AU, I sincerely doubt whether they will present much of a challenge recruiting wise when competing for kids also considering NCC, IWU, etc., Don Beebe or not."

Just accept your opinion was wrong and move on, AndOne. It's almost football season! No use crying over spilled recruits . . . to Don Beebe at AU  ;)

Rhythm,

Evidently, in addition to logical thinking, your reading comprehension needs a little work. YOU are the only one here that mentioned “recruiting violation.” Go back and read the 3rd paragraph of my post again. This time, pay particular attention to the words I underlined in that paragraph 👀. Despite your failure to answer the questions I posed with regard to the sequence of events in this case, I’m willing to give Beebe the benefit of the doubt.

And yes, there are a multitude of reasons why a kid might choose Aurora over IWU or NCC. However, you need to face the facts and realize that neither better football nor better academics will be making an appearance on that list, Beebe or no Beebe. Those are the facts.

I hope AU has a good season, and assume AU will make the playoffs this year so I’ll extend my congratulations in advance.

In closing, I do have one question——Now that AU has become Cam Moore’s third school in three years after they completed a major coup and “recruited” him away from NCC——-Why doesn’t Moore’s name appear on the Spartans just posted 2019 roster list?  Has yet another school “recruited” him away from AU?  ???  ;)

Lol, my logical thinking and reading comprehension are fine, AndOne, trust me. It's your 2-dimensional thinking and absurd idea of what a "fact" is that needs some work (You seriously need to stop using the word fact(s), it's getting a little embarrassing for you.) You originally threw out your opinion without anybody asking for it, which is your right on a chat board. But you've been proven wrong (Cam Moore leaving NCC for AU) quicker and with more certainty than I could've even predicted (Would have been difficult with high school recruits as there is no recruiting site ranking D3 recruits and tracking the schools recruiting them.) You have since spent long posts backpedaling and pivoting from that original opinion, which is a typical tactic for those not skilled in the art of debate.

Despite your one outlined line, here are the cliff-notes of what you said: "I'm not sure how Cam Moore decided on AU (because I confuse my opinion with fact on a regular basis) but if he was recruited away, I just wanna let everyone know that that's against the rules. That's what I'm concerned about, not that I said With all due respect to AU, I sincerely doubt whether they will present much of a challenge recruiting wise when competing for kids also considering NCC, IWU, etc., Don Beebe or not. and was then totally contradicted when provided with an example a kid literally choosing Aurora University over North Central." It's all misdirection, dude.

Just man up and say, "You know what, turns out I was wrong. Maybe Don Beebe, despite North Central having a better football tradition and a slight edge academically--the only 2 recruiting pitches I seemed to think were important to 18-22 year olds for some reason-- does make Aurora more competitive in recruiting." That's all you need to say, man.

I'll end this post with a little bit of you contradicting yourself, because I'm smart like that  ;D:
"With all due respect to AU, I sincerely doubt whether they will present much of a challenge recruiting wise when competing for kids also considering NCC, IWU, etc., Don Beebe or not.
Additionally, when you factor in the academic component, the advantage that those other schools enjoy only increases."
Your latest take:
"And yes, there are a multitude of reasons why a kid might choose Aurora over IWU or NCC. However, you need to face the facts and realize that neither better football nor better academics will be making an appearance on that list, Beebe or no Beebe. Those are the facts." (Your misuse of the word facts literally--the real literally-- makes me cringe.)

+ That roster is just returning players, no freshman or transfers, been up for a while now. I guess we'll just have to wait and see when everyone reports to camp  ;)
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AndOne

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Re: FB: Northern Athletics Collegiate Conference
« Reply #6220 on: August 08, 2019, 06:03:37 pm »
Rhythm,

You must be a graduate of the Trump University of Comprehension and Debate. Open your eyes and take in the my complete statement. Yes, I did say there are a number of factors that might make a kid choose AU over NCC (or IWU), but I didn’t include either better football or better academics among them.

Football wise—NCC is ranked #5 in the country in the D3Football preseason poll. And AU is...........somewhere over the horizon. Against much stiffer competition, NCC has gone 31-5 over the last 3 seasons and finished 8th, 8th, and 10th in the final national poll over the last 3 years. Aurora?
The stronger football program is where?

Academics wise—I said US News & World Report ranks NCC #13, and AU #123 in the Midwest Regional Universities category. A sizable difference. You rejected that comparison as you scoffed at the criteria that publication uses in it's rankings. You felt Forbes offered more realistic rankings. Working within that theater you advised that Illinois schools range nationally between #18 and #621. You further advised that NCC is #462 by whatever criteria Forbes uses, and that Aurora’s ranking is #615. So, by your own statement, AU ranks 615th out of 621. Now that is indeed a ringing endorsement of Aurora’s standing!  :D
And the stronger academic program is where?

Looks like it’s time you faced the facts, Rhythm. In neither football nor academics does AU compare with NCC.
In light of the above, it makes perfect sense that suddenly, out of the blue, Cam Moore picked up the phone, called Coach Beebe and said “I started this year on the 8th ranked team in the nation, and had a productive season. But, I’d love to put that behind me and transfer to AU despite the facts that AU doesn’t compare, either football wise or academically, with where I am now.”  ???
Keep on believing Rhythm. Keep on believing.  ::)
Done with this.  :)

Offline Wheaton2668

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Re: FB: Northern Athletics Collegiate Conference
« Reply #6221 on: August 09, 2019, 01:54:47 pm »
Knowing Cam Moore for many years during his youth football days - Cam was a star at Wheaton North his FR season but thought he was overlooked his SO season (as other SO played varsity) so he transferred to Wheaton Warrenville South and sat his JR season but then had a great senior season. Not sure if the same thing (felt he was being overlooked) happened at NCC. I believe there is some previous connection with Cam and Beebe as he trained at Beebe's House of Speed.

Offline Pat Coleman

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Re: FB: Northern Athletics Collegiate Conference
« Reply #6222 on: August 09, 2019, 04:33:59 pm »
I suspect there are probably also people who trained at his speed clinic who already have a relationship with Beebe and might go to play for him under those circumstances.

I believe there is some previous connection with Cam and Beebe as he trained at Beebe's House of Speed.

This totally makes sense and makes me wonder if there might not be a few more kids like this who would consider Aurora.
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Offline BigRedScots

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Re: FB: Northern Athletics Collegiate Conference
« Reply #6223 on: August 14, 2019, 10:33:20 am »
Monmouth's top WR Jacolby Maxwell has also transferred to AU. He played for Beebe in HS at Aurora Christian.

Offline FANOFD3

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Re: FB: Northern Athletics Collegiate Conference
« Reply #6224 on: August 14, 2019, 02:35:45 pm »
So Aurora is the team to be this year?